The Bechdel Cast - This Christmas with Miles Gray

Episode Date: December 17, 2020

This Christmas (season), Caitlin and Jamie talk about This Christmas (movie) with special guest Miles Gray!(This episode contains spoilers)For Bechdel bonuses, sign up for our Patreon at patreon.com/bechdelcast.Follow @milesofgray on Twitter. While you're there, you should also follow @BechdelCast, @caitlindurante and @jamieloftusHELP  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017 was assassinated. Crooks Everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. That's right, the only, Katherine Hahn is joining us on Las Culturistas. That's right, the queen of comedy herself. Get ready for a conversation that's as hilarious as it is insightful. Tune in for all the laughs, the stories,

and of course, the culture. Don't miss Katherine Hahn on Las Culturistas. Listen to Las Culturistas on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Gianna Pradenti. And I'm Jermaine Jackson-Gadsden. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts.

There's a lot to figure out when you're just starting your career. That's where we come in. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in people who do, like negotiation expert Maury Tahiripour. If you start thinking about negotiations as just a conversation, then I think it sort of eases us a little bit. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. in them are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism

the patriarchy's effing vast start changing it with the bechdel cast hello and welcome to the bechdel cast my name is caitlin dorante my name is jamie loftus and this is a this is our episode uh about um well it's about a lot of things what is it about i don't know how many years we've been doing this 500 years what is it about really who are we really jamie do you ever who am i who who this is this thing that my my boyfriend will say a lot this is not passing the bechdel test by the way but something something my boyfriend will say a lot about the podcast he likes i'm like well what is that podcast like what is the podcast he's about and he'll say something akin to like well it's about this but it's really about friendship and i was like okay first of all that's annoying second of all maybe that's what we'll say

from now on we're like well it's technically about movies but it's really more about our friendship that's so nice speaking of which i uh uh well wait we should say what the podcast is i i was it's gonna be a countdown for me until we can start talking about the parallels between uh idris elba's character in this movie and macavity oh my gosh i had a lot of macavity i have so i have a whole analog to how this movie is basically the movie cats he's basically well i i didn't pick that up but i was i was like there's some macavity energy anyways we should say what the podcast is okay this is our podcast about uh movies we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens using the bechdel test simply as a way to just inspire the concept of talking about film through this lens and jamie

what on earth is the bechdel test i don't know well in this movie it's when your mom comes in your room when you're using a vibrator and tells you that your career can't keep you warm at night but what it technically is is what it technically is is it's a media metric invented by a queer cartoonist allison bechtel sometimes called the bechtel wallace test that requires for our purposes that uh two people of a marginalized gender with names speak to each other about something other than a man uh and and most movies don't pass it and i would say say holiday movies, it gets even harder to pass. Yeah, because everyone's like,

why don't you have a husband yet, daughter of mine? This movie does, I mean, this movie does, like, spoiler alert, this movie does pass the Bechdel test, but there are some really funny ones. Like when Madea comes in and says,

your vibrator isn't going to keep you warm at night, you know, and she goes, mom. And then you're like, well, I guess that, maybe, maybe that bad about batteries they talk about batteries genderless icon batteries yeah true let's bring our guest in yes we have a returning guest we've we've rolled down the what am i saying window the the what is the wording we use we we've taken down the embargo yes yeah we've we've unlocked the cage that we keep all men in jesus it's great so i guess today we're turning from you remember him from the rock episode which is where a lot of

running gags in our show were born between Gregnant, between his wife. His wife. Lots of gems. You could say that the Rock episode was Gregnant with and gave birth to several running gags of the Begbo cast. Anyway, the Rock was a very Gregnant episode. Very Gregnant. Extremely Gregnant. A lot of Gregnance.

Eight months Gregnant, that whole episode. Much like this one. There's a Gregnancy in this one. I was like, there better be a Gregnancy in this movie. Oh, you know. Thank God. It's a little late in the game, but the Gregnancy comes through. It's present.

And you know him as one of the hosts of the Daily Zeitgeist. It's Miles Gray. Oh, thank you so much for having me. I'm truly honored that you allowed me back. When you even asked me, like, hey, do you want to talk about a movie? I was like, on your podcast, Bechdelcast, where my sort is not allowed at the moment. I was very confused. But you know what?

I'm honored that you have welcomed me back into the kingdom and offered me safe passage through the cinematic universe of course so yeah it's always a pleasure so happy to have you

to people who I could talk to endlessly about anything anyway so it's hardly any kind of a task for me listen when we I mean this is the same

this is happening the same month that Alfred Molina has been welcomed into the MCU so you know Miles Gray is now canon in the BCU. It takes two appearances to become canonically BCU. Thank you.

I feel honored. You know, Molina has reentered the MCU. Now Miles Gray is entering the BCU. So it feels like a new day for me. Miles Graytheon has arrived. Miles Graytheon is here. Also, shout out to my sponsors raytheon uh that gave me they gave me twenty thousand dollars to change my last name but it's worth it that's incredible i mean honestly i think you could have gotten more i don't know i didn't want to be greedy you know that's true i think you know

little company little mom and pop organization just destabilizing whole sections of the earth um miles what is your relationship with this christmas well oddly enough which is the movie by the way oh with this one very tortured relationship with this current christmas with this particular 2020 christmas um i you know oddly enough it's a movie i've i watched when it came out in 2007 i was a you know really weird place at the time getting off of getting out of college to an economy that was like vaporized and then also like awful breakup where like i didn't know who the fuck i was anymore so i was i was i was watching a lot of uh corn unplugged in the dark on my beanbag chair especially uh with with amy from evanescence comes

out to do freak on a leash um so that was sort of like i know that's like the vibe i was operating in so i i so i watched it then and oddly enough when you asked me about this christmas i was like i just watched it last night like the night before you had asked me about doing it so it's i don't know it was just it's it's there but i hadn't seen it in years so it was like going into it new sure sure jamie what about you uh like many movies i've seen like chunks of this movie over the years on like TNT and like when friends were watching it or roommates were watching it. But I'd never like sat down and watched the the entire thing, which honestly, I mean, this movie really does like demand 100 percent of your attention. If you're trying to follow.

There's so many storylines. It's like love. It's love. Actually, level number of storylines it's like love that it's love actually level number of storylines but worse because they're all in the same house and you feel more like well i should know everyone because we're not just like going across the country to these other like disparate storylines i'm like wait is that a kid or a boyfriend or spouse of the fuck there are so many times where i'm like did i miss something do we not know who's, like, what job does this person have?

Whose child is this? It took me a second to figure out who. Oh, yeah. I thought that it was Kelly's children for a second, but it turns out it was Regina King's children. And then I was like, did I? And then I went back. I'm like, no, I was just supposed to know that. I was just supposed to know that.

Right, right, right. There's also, like, a cousin Fred or cousin, Fred, who shows up now and then, but he's not important at all. But important enough to take a shot at how many kids he has. They're like, how many kids Fred got? Six, seven? Also, Madea has six children.

What is she passing judgment about? At least she had it with Senior. I think they're trying to make it look like Fred has a bunch of baby moms. There's's a lot of weird shitty tropes in here but you know it's uh but that's what chris's movies are about it's usually not nuanced discussion of fucking anything so and chris brown is there really hate to see chris brown in a prom there it was my pleasure to fast forward through all 60,000 Chris Brown musical montages. Credit to his manager or agent who basically, when they negotiated that, was like, he will sing entire songs in this movie and you will not edit them down one fucking bar. yeah chris brown this is like i mean and this is sort of like shortly before his career and his like he starts to really be called into question right because that happened in the late 2000s but

like yeah that was like 2009 oh with rihanna there's yeah or 2008 that was after this movie but i don't know exactly what right yeah i don't i mean he was still you know there he was still just had minimal tattoos his neck wasn't tatted yet you can always tell like where you're at because like as the tattoos filled and you're like okay now we're getting into like scum chris brown phase um yeah so yeah i don't know it's he's he definitely brought people into the theaters that like when you look at that line if you're like we're letting an algorithm tell us how we're gonna get as many asses into the seats yeah and he's so prominent on the i was looking at the posters where he's like takes up a third of the poster even though there's 12 people on the poster right right it's like chris brown's this christmas right? Yeah. Thankfully, he's actually not in that much of it.

Like, it's mostly other people. But almost every second he's on screen, he's just singing, singing, singing. That said, I enjoyed this movie. Caitlin, what's your history with this movie? I hadn't seen it before. I liked it okay. But generally, movies that are like character-driven family narratives that don't really have a distinct plot aren't really my type of movies so it's not a romp that's kind

of rompy i would say that idris elba's uh storyline is very rompy it's like in oceans 11 in the middle of a family movie they give you all kinds of, yeah, they give you even like Star Wars, daddy issues, reconciliation vibes too. But there's also, there's like more mellow drama than I enjoy in a movie. Oh, okay. So I'm just like. I was here for it. I love, I love the mellow drama.

It's generally a pass for me. But also, and i don't generally the only christmas movie i like is muppet christmas carol every other one you liked princess witch 2 sort of did you like have you seen new york christmas wedding i have not seen new york christmas the lgbtq one that like netflix put out where it's basically this woman who's about to get married to a man is visited by an angel who sends her to a parallel reality where she could have come out to her best girlfriend that she was in love with and play out a life where she would have just honored her feelings about her friend and had this beautiful love affair with this other woman. But then the thing ends and it's like, all right, now choose. Oh, my God. beautiful love affair with this other woman but then like the thing ends and it's like all right now choose oh my god it's like a very very weird way to present that sort of quandary for a person of like this angel be like okay you want to test drive this other version where you uh embrace this relationship maybe not but anyway those are some stakes i didn't know that existed yeah check it

out i mean because this is the thing i love about christmas movies is that they're so just they can be anything they can be like sincere and earnest and you're like oh this just happens to be happening during christmas but for me the best ones are like absolute trash where there's so many plot holes and you're being like they didn't even think when they were writing this i for whatever reason that's like a salve on my like like tortured creator wounds and i'm like see people can get absolute shit made it is like if a christmas movie took more than 45 minutes to write it took too long period done michael keaton's jack frost took 11 minutes to write the entire screenplay yeah that movie was fully improvised. Oh, I went to high school with one of the snowboard bullies from that movie. Wait, I think you've told us this before.

That's iconic. That's incredible. Unfortunately, that kid was living in his sister's shadow who played the daughter in Jack Frost. And he only got the part because his sister was one of the leads. And we made fun of him. That's how toxic L.A. school was. Like, dude, you only got it because your sister was a lead fool. And we made fun of like that's how toxic la school was like dude you only got it because your sister was a lead fool and you barely you didn't even have like a u5 part under five lines um so it was like i don't know what that means wow growing up in la

i mean yeah i think it's also jealousy because he also had like he like brought a snow i feel like he bought brought like a snowboard jacket from the set to school in like the la heat and we're like dude we get it so then we just turned on him we're like whatever bro your sister got you the gig like we're all like 12 and shit well one of the things i appreciate about this movie is that there's la christmas representation because so many christmas movies take place in like New York or Chicago or any other place where it's like cold and snowy during Christmas time so I appreciated that you have just

like you know mild weather Christmas like a scarf you know yeah a light jacket that's it and you know some people can overdo it I think if it was truly Angelina though we would be dressing like it was negative 40 below. All right.

Just fully cosplaying. Yeah, because our Overton window in terms of what's hot or cold is completely screwed up. So we're like, yeah, what is it? It's below 70. Wear mittens right now. Oh, good grief. Should I do the recap? Yeah, let's do it. Of this story to the best of my ability yeah it's kind of a lot there's a lot going on there's a lot curious how you're gonna do it with

and have it be very cogent and succinct yeah everything's happening and yet nothing at all is happening the stakes from character to character are so wildly different that like you're just like, wait a second. There's an AWOL pregnancy scandal, and then there's someone who's like, should I get back into the dating world? Everyone's stakes are so wild. I know, it's like, I got a camera, but mom doesn't like that I sing. It's like, are these stakes? And then Idris Elba is being beaten up in every scene he's in.

But buddies with his transgressors. He's got two, they act like middle school bullies, but they are 38 years old. They're like, yeah, Moe and Dude, they're going to get me. I'm like, this sounds like a seventh grade problem that he's having. I think Joe Biden wrote these characters. You know, there was Moe and Dude. You know, bad dudes, you know.

Associates of Corn Pop. Yeah, messing with my boy, Quentin Jr., who was a jazz pianist. You're like, all right, Joe, this sounds very contrived. Like, all right, Grandpa, let's go to bed. Right. Okay, so this Christmas, the film is about the Whitfield family. Madeir is the matriarch. She has six sons and daughters who are all grown up and who are all getting together for Christmas for the first time in four years. And because this is a more kind of character driven story than a plot driven story, my recap might be kind of all over the place, so just bear with me

here. But so it's a few days before Christmas. Medeir, that's Loretta Devine's character, lives in LA. She owns a dry cleaners and her romantic partner, Joe, played by Delroy Lindo, is the kind of stepfather figure to her kids although they are not married and a lot of them don't know that Joe lives in the house with Medeir and everyone's being very like 2007 about it in a way that is very weird to me I was just like why can't just be happy for Medeir like why are we whatever the main thing is like well we'll get to this but quentin idris elba's character hates joe and like that's why she's like keeping it a secret anyway idris elba's character is secretly 12 years old that's like my that's the only way i can rationalize

some of his some of his choices where he's like i don't get it why aren't you married to my dad anymore and it's like right this is 12 year old culture this is not like oh and literally telling joe you're not my daddy yeah oh okay sir we got that part when we knew that i think you're also an adult and we don't need to talk like that right now right like i feel like people should come down the things that people come down Quentin hard for, like being a musician, don't make sense. And the things that they take really easy on him, like being aggressive towards Joe, who has never done a thing. People are just like, well, you know, he's sad about the divorce. You're like, he needs to, you know, grow up, figure that out.

They're like, by all measures, Quentin Sr. sounds like a piece of shit. He sounds horrible. He bounced on the family to be a fucking musician? That's not an honorable person. Sorry. So, but again,

that's the thing. Like, we all have these fucked up relationships with our parents and even though on paper it's bad, we still idolize them

and treat Joe wrong. There's so much depth to that. It's true. It's true. I like Joe. i like joe too i love delroy lindo you know yeah whenever when he puts a good performance on like it felt weird he felt like he was classing up the joint there with his acting like i was like delroy you're too good right now this is a little this is a little bit of holiday trash and you're like

your earnest performance is a little like shakespeare some Shakespearean weight to the whole thing. Even when he would have it out with Idris Elba, these tense moments where he's like, you probably should stay away while I'm around because I don't want you here with my mom. He's like, why don't you take that up with your mother? And he's like, I will. And then Delroy Lindo just does great reaction acting

when he's about to say something, measures, dials back, and then goes on. You're like, wow. Okay, Delroy. He really thought through. That whole scene, there's just a scene where he's just like about to say something measures dials back and then goes on you're like wow okay delroy he really thought through that whole scene there's like just a scene where he's just hanging up lights and getting a little frustrated and i was captivated because we're supposed to focus on what's happening in the background which is kelly coming home from a one-night stand with mckay pfeiffer who proceeds to stalk her for the rest of the movie but like in a cute way

but in a cute way oh my god when he's very suddenly like dressed up as santa with her niece and nephew i'm like this is like this is the end of that storyline and if we can't continue but we do in the normal world there's a text that says girl you're not gonna believe this motherfucker showed up in a santa outfit i didn't even call him no i'm trying to get him to leave right now no just the one time not since then no he brought gifts and shit too like once they like as if he knew what they wanted this is fucked up you run even a cursory buscemi test on that it all falls apart Stu Bouchami comes the next morning in a Santa suit you're like it's not gonna end well you're like get out of my house um yeah okay so we meet Madeer

and Joe we meet baby that's Chris Brown's character he is the youngest member of the family I think he's a senior in high school about to graduate because he still lives it they like make it seem like he's still in high school right even though he's yes but he's acting like again he's acting like he's 10 like he's always like hunched over like he he he he but also 25 because he's like i'm singing at a nightclub right and i snuck out like how the age right they never like they never specify really how old anyone is supposed to be which works to the movie's advantage because i'm like i don't know what i would believe right and then the rest of the family starts to arrive at medeir's house uh lisa that's regina king she arrives with her husband malcolm that's laz alonzo they have two kids together who could not

be in the movie less if they tried nope that's fucked up it was weird and another like moment when i was like i'm so fucking confused like when i was watching it last week and i'm like wait who who the whose fucking kids are these and why are they being neglected the whole film? Like they don't exist in the reality of the film. Right. The fact that they're even there is introduced so late in the movie. Right. And then I was still like,

wait, whose kids are these? And then you're like, oh, okay. That makes sense that, I don't know. The way that they're introduced was very confusing. And then they're like in the background of two scenes. Right. But they don't even sit at the table. No.

They're at the kids' table. I honestly thought in the first like Soul Train dance line that they did as a family, like when Quinn comes home and one of the kids was there, I honestly thought it was an intruder. I was like, who the fuck is, and like y'all aren't really, you're just going to act like, okay, whatever. I'm like, this family's on some other shit.

You know those infamous child intruders? Yeah, I don't know. Exactly. I'm like, y'all, one of these little cutesy thieves is in your house on Christmas. You've seen this a hundred times. You know the script already. That classic Christmas trope. Hey, it's me, your other little grandchild.

Here, I'm going to take the presents. Yoink. I don't know why they talk like a New York burglar from the 20s. his trope hey it's me your other little grandchild here i'm gonna take the presents yoink i don't know why they talk like a new york burglar from the 20s but well given idris elba's character you know i believe almost anything yeah right okay so then we also meet kelly that's sharon leal she works in new york i think in advertising she went to Harvard. Her main thing is that she's a terrible cook. A lot of jokes are made at her expense about her being really bad at cooking.

Don't forget, she also has a vibrator. And she has a vibrator, yes. She's one of those Harvard non-cooking, knows-how-to-pleasure-herself types. A modern feminist. Real think-for-herselfer. But we're told we don't like that she's gotta she's gotta marry the first santa she has sex with right look you beggars can't be choosers especially when you fuck up making kool-aid the fact the fact that she's literally like a harvard grad who happens

to be single and doesn't seem to be bothered by it and the movie is like hmm she's gonna start dating santa you're just like what yep that tracks for this character what you're laying out for me i do like that they did honor the trope of talking about harvard all the time yes because like it's one thing like when a black person goes to harvard it's always talked it will never not be spoken about so i really appreciated how like harvard was constantly getting beat over the head once in the same way like and i think in like more like white culture the it's the the trope of i went to school in cambridge or what is it boston went to school in boston what's the vague thing that people say did not say they went to harvard went to a small college in Boston. Oh, okay. Well, this feels like a great time to bring up that I went to a school in Boston.

It's called Boston University, and I did get a master's degree in screenwriting from that institution. But I would never bring that up. You would never. Never. What did you think of some of the writing? Sorry to derail you. I know we're still doing the synopsis, but there were some lines of dialogue that i was like there were some head scratchers there i had some fun ones that the writing to me was pretty decent i think i would say some of the soundtrack choices were what were really puzzling to me yeah well the interesting thing is that Marcus Miller was the person in charge of music.

And Marcus Miller is a fucking well, well-respected jazz musician. And played with Miles Davis and shit. So when I saw that pop up, I was like, shit, Marcus Miller is the fucking musical director? He's a talented bassist. But it had that stale jazz brunchy vibe to the soundtrack. It was very, yeah, I was kind of, I was like, I don't know how much of this

is, like, 2007 talking, but it just, it did sound very, like, generic. I had, my favorite line was, because I generally, like, thought, I mean, it's super tropey but whatever it's a christmas movie but my favorite line that was bad was anytime malcolm the like cheating husband is talking the way he talks is so business vague in a way that i thought was really funny where he's like at some point like kelly realizes that he's cheating on her sister. And he's like, you know, I got to fly back to San Francisco, sign some papers.

It's business. And you're just like, there's a sentence. And then he says on the phone, I'm in escrow. Let him know. He's doing deals, man. He's in escrow himself right now. Sorry, I'm in escrow right now. I'll call you when I get out.

Like, sounds like business to me. I don't know. The other thing he said, I think when we were talking off mic the other day, Jamie, I was like, there's some business investment tropes or just takes that are just really weird. Where Malcolm says that buying a Cadillac Escalade is a good investment. And that was like the most 2007 shit I've ever heard. It was like, I'm into Escaladecalade is a good investment. And that was like the most 2007 shit I've ever heard. It was like, I mean, the Escalade is a good investment. I'm like, that car is not appreciating in value. How is that a good investment in any way?

It's also like one of the most famous like gas guzzlers. Yeah. Well, I think also for me to at that time, fuck, pulling up an Escalade, there was no higher vehicle in black culture you know like a cadillac and then big body suv cadillac but i just love that he was so like insistent in that seems like damn got the escalators yes good investment i was just like that's don't even have a character say that out loud that's yeah the car is not an investment

unless it's like to get you to and from work or some kind of classic car right yeah i suppose there's some questionable writing choices i think like store like the emotional arc of different characters yeah but yeah that was fun the uh yeah there there were a few things here that were kind of like oh this happens right before a big recession and you can kind of see you're like oh i don't know how this ends how does this where you know where are the whitfields in 2009 we never we don't know we didn't get a sequel yeah yet i mean maybe they had they sold their business just to get liquid that's true that's true right and that's see that's a follow-up we don't want we don't need that yeah it's like i don't want to know they live in 2007 forever for me i like what if they're

like yeah and then baby became chris brown oh god also at the end of the movie where there's a really long dance sequence and then you're like oh it's not even the characters anymore it's just the actor it's just the actors yeah it took me a second because i was like they just did someone just accidentally call him chris i was like oh no i guess we're just actors now yeah it's just like it's like a like the end of a play where the cast comes out and gives like a like a fun bow was like the movie equivalent like let's do i'll do some dancing and then i felt like i was kind of turning up the volume because i feel like there was some like shit talking going on i'm gonna have to watch that again but there was a moment where i feel like someone made fun of someone else's dancing and they're

like, I don't give a fuck. Like someone, I felt like there was an exchange like that where someone's like, oh, wow, you're really doing it. He's like, come on, I'm fucking drunk. Like there was like a dismissive grunt that I think is audible. A cast that large, you have to think that like there has to be like some pairing that doesn't work well. When there's a cast of over 10 people, you're like, okay, two of these people don't like each other.

Right. But you just never know who. Right. Sure. Like Lauren London and Delroy Lindo hate each other. They're out. Well, I feel like Delroy Lindo still sends everyone Christmas cards. He just seems like he would.

Aw. He seems like a, you know, sometimes you're like, man. Hey, come visit me, man, please. Come visit know sometimes you're like hey come visit me man please come visit me anytime please come visit me remember that movie yeah from 13 years ago yeah yeah i was just i was just telling i was just calling you up to tell you how much i like the five bloods yeah but remember this christmas man you said we were gonna hang out after that i know you're busy you got no it's fine it's fine it's fine it's fine you don't want to hang out with an old guy like me you know i was in congo i'm not a man wow he played a very weird uh like

everything like at like central african general in it anyway i dig Yeah, let's return to the recap. Right, right, right. Actually, let's take a quick break first, and then we will come right back. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who, on October 16, 2017, was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unhurts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks.

Daphne exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. And she paid the ultimate price. Listen to Crooks everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Gianna Pradente. And I'm Jemay Jackson-Gadsden. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline, a new podcast from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts.

When you're just starting out in your career, you have a lot of questions. Like, how do I speak up when I'm feeling overwhelmed? Or, can I negotiate a higher salary if this is my first real job? Girl, yes. Each week we answer your unfiltered work questions. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in experts who do, like resume specialist Morgan Saner. The only difference between the person who doesn't get the job and the person who gets the job is usually who applies. Yeah, I think a lot about that quote.

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We've got some exciting news for you. You know we're always bringing you the best guests, right? Well, this week, we're taking it to the next level. The one, the only, Katherine Hahn is joining us

on Lost Culture East. That's right. The queen of comedy herself. Get ready for a conversation that's as hilarious as it is insightful. Tune in for all the laughs, the stories, and of course, the culture. I feel some Sandra Bernhard in you. Oh, my God. I would love it.

I have to watch Lost. Oh, you have to. No, I know. I'm so behind. Catherine Hahn can sing. Oh, you have to. No, I know. I'm so behind. Katherine Hahn can sing. Oh, I'm really good at karaoke. What's your song? Yeah, what's your song?

Oh, I love a ballad. I felt Bjork's music. I just was like, who is this person? I got to hawk this slalom, Luge. I'm not going to hawk this slalom. Ige. Not hawk the slalom. I absolutely love it. It was somehow Shakespearean when you said it. It was somehow gorgeous.

Yee, my slok, you hollum. Listen to Las Culturistas on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So next to come home is Claude. That columbus short uh he's in the military i think that's really all we learn about him for a while yeah then mel that's lauren london comes home she's in college studying pre-law she brings home her boyfriend devin and then last to arrive is quentin idris elba's character he's a jazz musician who we've seen get into like a brawl prior to this he bursts the opening scene breakaway glass in the first scene like he smashes a bottle over someone's face and then he then jumps out of the window

you're like oh this is macavity i i remember i was watching with her majesty and we paused it after that because we're like is this a christmas movie he just glassed a guy in a club and ran for his life like it had the didn't i mean i guess the jazzy christmas piano would give you a hint but like it had the oddest energy for the opening of a Christmas film. It was such a weird... That being the first scene really does not set you up for... It establishes a tone that does not maintain itself

throughout the rest. I don't know. What would you say, Dr. Durante, about the writing there? Or what would Robert McKee say as such a heavy-handed exposition? Please, call me Master Durante. Yes, Master Durante.

I would say that the point of attack of a film, which is like basically the opening, how we open the story, how the world and the characters are first introduced to the audience, generally does a few important things. And one of those things is to establish tone. And when you establish a tone that then is deviated from for the rest of the

story, it's a bit jarring. But what if Moe and dude come back every once in a while and say, Hey, remember us punch punch. Yeah. Is that nice? Does that work?

That provides a little bit more fluidity and consistency however it is i will say a strange choice as a way to open the film i'm glad to know that was verified by someone with a master's degree you're welcome um okay so now the whole family is there uh so this is like the first evening they're all there together. And this is where the drama really starts to ramp up. Part of it is that Kelly has a strained relationship with Lisa. She thinks that Lisa is weak-willed and easily influenced and is too accommodating to her shitty husband, Malcolm, who Kelly openly hates. And that's one of my favorite aspects of this movie is how openly hateful she is to Malcolm right to his face. So meanwhile, Lisa wants to sell

Madeira's dry cleaning business. And this is an idea that we realized that Malcolm put her up to. No one else is really on board for this idea, but this is kind of like a running thing throughout the movie. Quentin hasn't seen his family in four years and probably the main reason that he came home this time was

that he is on the run from these bookies who he owes $25,000 to and so he's like in hiding at his mom's house and the reason he's estranged from his family is one of my favorite bizarre specifics about this movie which is that because quentin senior ditched the family to go be a musician madir feels that there is a bit of of a music musician related curse on her life that if any of the men in her life even go go within i think canonically within like uh six feet of a piano um that they will abandon her and um so she so it's it's almost she's like a little bit of like footloose when it comes to men playing music it's like this is the movie coco i was like did coco see this christmas and lift that very specific

coco famously wrote the movie coco but i was watching this i was like wait a minute miguel from coco this is like his whole problem his his like a a matriarch and his family was abandoned by a musician. And she thinks that there's like this, now this music curse on the family. So she forbids anyone in the family from like playing music or singing or doing anything. And I was like, wait a minute,

there's, there's a parallel here. Anyway, it truly is. And then, so, uh, Quentin has a strained relationship and part of it it is what we just described, this kind of music related curse that Medeir perceives to be on the family.

Because like Quentin has kind of followed in his father's footsteps as a musician. OK, so then everyone goes to a club that night. I think we're two nights before Christmas at this point. And a lot of stuff goes down at this club. It all goes down. It all goes down. It starts with Claude wanting to go there to meet someone in secret. And we realize that this person is a girlfriend or it turns out that she's his wife.

And he's kind of keeping her a secret with an eye sandy with an eye and the implication is that he's keeping her a secret from his family because she is white but all his siblings tag along right to this club outing so he still has to like hush like he's like go home sandy go back to the hotel and by home yeah it takes i feel like was i not watching carefully enough or does it take a really long time to figure out what their relationship actually is because at first it's like i it took me a while to figure out that she was his wife right and then and then also he's like making her live in a hotel like it just took me a long time to figure out what exactly the situation was there and that whole storyline is so fucking

bizarre i wasn't sure what the i was like at first i was like oh is he like is he has like a lover that clearly i was like there's a lover right and then i forgot that it was a white woman and i was like oh shit okay does this have some like lgbtq flavor and then i was like, there's a lover. And then I forgot that it was a white woman. And I was like, oh shit, okay, does this have some like LGBTQ flavor? And then I was like, oh, right. This is a black Christmas film. So we're going to go into, she is white. A white woman.

He's meeting up at the club. And I honestly thought it was, it felt like groupie-ish or something, like not a relationship. Cause it's like, go to the hotel where I will meet you. Yeah. It seems like a casual, I was not getting white vibes i was like oh no oh he's dating a white girl but then it was like no she's his wife and she's pregnant and she lives in a hotel you're like

why are these states here what what's happening oh yeah that whole storyline was uh baffling to me also shout out to the el rey Theater where that club is. Yeah. It's in every fucking movie in LA. It fucked up people's idea of what a nightclub was, which was basically just being like, we can basically only shoot at the El Rey Theater in the mask where he does his Coco Bongo thing, I think is the El Rey too. It's just an iconic theater, which in my mind is weird.

That set up with like stages, like a stage and tables is what I thought a nightclub was from like movies in the 90s that were shooting at the El Rey. And then you went to one and you're like, oh no,

it's a really just shitty big room with couches in the corner. It stinks. Yeah, you can't smell a building in a movie unfortunately no that could change but when i'm done in this industry that's all gonna be a little different there was like a smell-o-vision thing in in theaters for a while it was wildly unsuccessful but i learned about it in film history class oh really i remember in the 90s fox tv on sundays

they would have like these events where you'd go to a 7-eleven to pick up like whatever thing you needed to enjoy like they would do like three like in living color in 3d and you would get like those blue and red 3d glasses and you would like they would broadcast like the 3d version on the tv if you didn't have them you you were shit out of love but then they also did a smellell-O-Vision one where you bought a scratch and sniff card, and in an episode it'd be like, alright, now smell that, because

Al Bundy did one character on TV and it was janky analog Smell-O-Vision. Thank you, 7-Eleven and Fox. I think they did that for Nickelodeon cartoons at one point, too. You had to buy an issue of Nickelodeon magazine, and then you could smell a Spongebob episode and be like wow patrick parted time to time to smell it and exciting uh damn it i i already sniffed up all the smell off of this card doesn't smell like

anything anymore uh okay so we're at the club the siblings have tagged along there's also an open mic night that was i was like oh my god just the idea of like an open get me out of this club being like sprung like some kind of show of with like full of amateurs a christmas imagine doing a christmas eve open mic i just oh god i mean i could because i long to be in a room full of like other people like in strangers again uh but yeah that I think people have experienced this like going out where it's a surprise open mic and you didn't know you were at a thing that was about to turn into an open mic and you're like oh fuck no Mike I seriously don't want to be here for this well we've been on the other side of that hundreds of times as comics who will be on a bar show that no one else

at the bar knows a comedy show is about to happen and then suddenly someone walks up to a microphone they're like comedy starts in five minutes and then everyone at the bar is like i don't care i'm gonna keep talking at regular volume and my back's turned right with and the tvs are still on it's a mess yeah um yeah anyway so there's this open mic night and like the first to perform is their brother baby who sings a full song uh and they're like oh my god we didn't know he was a singer and wow he's so good exhausting but he's been keeping it a secret because of this music family curse yeah thing also at the club this is when gerald aka mckay pfeiffer is making googly eyes at kelly and then she goes home with him she doesn't know he's santa yet she doesn't know he's santa he's santa who can fuck santa could fuck oh this santa fucks honey yeah blew my mind and

then there's like that scene where lauren london is like did you fuck santa and then kelly's like yes right sure and then also at this club a few guys were seen hitting on claude's his lady friend again we don't really know their relationship at this point um so he pulls a gun on them he pulls his service pistol on them and then later on he gets arrested and that's when everyone finds out that he's a wall right that's also when they find out that sandy is his wife. For someone who has no plot for the first hour, the stakes for Claude go through the roof like really quickly. He shouldn't have gone to that club. He really shouldn't have.

Or if he hadn't, we would know nothing about his character. But also, I think it's a lesson, right? You know, had he just alleviated the stress of deceiving his family and keeping his relationship hidden, he may not have pulled the strap out at the club on the guy. Because his family wouldn't know. Oh, you're here with me. What's up, Sandy?

Oh, what's up, Sandy? But instead, he's like, yo, get the fuck away from me. Let me check the fucking hotel. And he's already tense. Like, who the fuck are you talking to? And now my brother's doing this thing. He's singing. My mom thinks it's a curse.

I think he had a lot going on. And then when those two dudes were like, hey, man, bro you know because the white girls they got booty but they got the strong knees or whatever the fuck that line was that set him off yeah yeah okay oh toxicity all around yeah uh that like then it was just like now fucking deep throat this gun motherfucker like whoa this has big dude who is keeping secrets energy who should have just just been communicative and forthright i feel like a lot of stress would have been tamped down and then idris elba is like you've always had this temper and it's like has he we haven't seen that like that should have been set up he was so nice for that like he

did not strike really pleasant and then suddenly he's like pulling a gun on people and we're like where is this coming from? Well, that's what shows you. That's what happens when you're with a white woman. I think that was being told to everybody else. They'd be like, see? See? See? That's like our cousin Randy. He's like that. It's nothing but trouble.

Randy and Sandy. It's so weird because he because later when Sandy shows up at the house, like there's a moment of discomfort, but then she's pretty much immediately accepted for the rest of the movie. And she's worried about basically nothing. Yeah, it was a weird thing where it's like my family could be, you know, really closed off to this shit. And like those were the stakes. and like you kind of but it was in that time like in the 2007 mindset especially for me as like a you know a person of color who dates like white women and all kind of just anybody really don't

discriminate romantically but like that idea was like oh shit she's white like you're like back then you're like oh oh oh you know like it felt there were stakes i think now we're in a bit of a we're more openly talking about things like that where this was very much being like it felt there were stakes i think now we're in a bit of a we're more openly talking about things like that where this was very much being like it's taboo and like that was really like the thing driving it whereas now we're like i mean biracial relationships have been going on since well before this film but it was still kind of like one of these things that felt a little like old school cultural trope that doesn't, it's not working the same way. But even then, in the end, the family was doing the thing that was pretty much what most people are.

I'm like, oh, cool. Okay. You're in our family and you're going to, you're also the mother of one of my descendants now. Right. Welcome. But then there's a weird component where you, part of it where you learn that her family doesn't know about her pregnancy. Right. that her family doesn't know about her pregnancy right because she's like uh yeah they're not fans of claude because he's black so she comes from this like wildly racist family so it's like taboo

for her for a different reason is referenced again so they attach these like really significant stakes that it's like you can't just say that and then not explore it at all like oh you can because you can't i'll tell you why because it's a black holiday film and all you needed is that moment where you go yep i told you white people ain't shit that's really what it did and she's like you see because they they embraced her meanwhile her ain't shit family was like we're racist as fuck you know i think that was like that gives because every holiday film no matter what like whether it's the length like the lens of like an orphan or someone like you need that moment of like, yeah, we're the good guy. Like, see, that felt good right there.

So I felt that was that moment. And also for me, I just when it happened, I sort of reverted to this like thing of like, yeah, see, exactly. That's how that's some shit like that. And I was like, what? And I was like, oh, okay, yeah. I get it. Jesus. You're just getting off to me.

You're just getting off to my physical presence. Yeah. Fuck. Anyway, but let's not digress because they embraced Sandy and that's what this is all about. They do. Christmas is all about opening your arms and your hearts and your homes to everyone. Weren't Moe and Dude... Oh, I'm sorry.

Let me... I'll let you keep... No, well, speaking of them, this is also around the time that those two bookies, Moe and Dude, show up. Yes. Beat the shit out of quentin for a while and then they stick around and even almost stay the night there's a very weird dynamic there but basically they will punch quentin when no one's looking but the rest of the time they're masquerading as quentin's friends right and everyone buys it it almost feels like a home aloney like it's like oh yeah the tone of is like they're just kind of the robbers where they're as Quentin's friends. Right. And everyone buys it. It almost feels like Home Alone-y.

Like, it's, like, the tone is, like, they're just kind of the robbers, where they're like, yeah, we're friendly, but we're gonna kick your ass if you don't get us our money. It's a good pal here, right, Quentin? I'm gonna give you a cue of gut punches. Ah, you silly fuck. They're just such a weird...

They weren't even following, like, the tropes of goons, like, who are just, like,ons like who are just like stupid guys who are just going to be like the like threat of violence that exists in the background like they suddenly became like these goofball dudes who are also being like let's also fuck with him by like pretending we're friends and also like offer them a ride to the police station to get their brother out of jail like i was like wait are y'all in the family now it was really confusing what they're like we know what their end game is but the way they were trying to get there really made no sense i was like are they just lonely do they just want to like spend time with somebody can we just sort of break out the

financial aspects of them seeking restitution because where did where was quentin coming from new york san francisco chicago oh no i think the golden gate bridge that's to show where lisa is from lisa and her husband her family live in san francisco i think i think maybe chicago is where okay so it was definitely cold not it wasn't a wasn't a quick jaunt away. So I'm thinking, okay, so what are their travel expenses? Okay. How are we eating into this $25,000 we're trying to get back?

You know, gas, lodging, food. I'm thinking there's probably what? I'll call it three grand. Now you're looking at 22. And who's that owed to? Is that specifically you guys? Are you splitting that 22? I started getting into goon math when I was watching it they gotta keep those suits clean yeah exactly

and like are you keeping receipts for expenses for your goon boss i don't know yeah yeah because they do have a goon boss i forget their his name but they mentioned the goon boss that they're like collecting the money on behalf of big goon in the sky oh gosh okay um then i i'm a little lost on the timeline here i think it's maybe later that night or maybe the next day not sure but basically there's now a big there's a big fight in the rain between kelly and lisa they're pushing each other uh kelly's like your husband's a piece of shit, and you're a pushover, and he's cheating on you. And Lisa's like, oh, wait a minute. Maybe she's right.

And then she goes and destroys his aforementioned Cadillac Escalade. Drives it into the L.A. River. Yes. Big moment for the L.A. River. Right, which is, for anyone who is not familiar with the L. the LA River, is mostly concrete with a tiny little stream of water. Which is even weirder because it's a concrete stream and then a cut-out concrete stream inside of it. You know what I mean?

Like when you look at it, it's like, this looks like a sidewalk. You're like, where's the stream? It's like, oh, it's that other weird thing that's the depression in this concrete block we're standing on. That's the river. That little pee-pee stream. That's our beautiful river. That's the depression in this concrete block we're standing on. That's the river. That little pee-pee stream. That's our beautiful river. That's our river.

That's our gorgeous river. So then Baby finally tells Madeer about wanting to be a singer. She does not take it well. Meanwhile, Quentin leaves on Christmas Eve night. The bookies catch up with him at the train station and beat the crap out of him but joe swoops in to save the day then we cut to christmas morning lisa confronts malcolm about being a piece of shit and beats him with a belt like pours baby oil over the floor to like humiliate him all this god is that yeah that

was wild that scene really like kept going on dude that scene was i was like this scene yeah i was like i but you know you need that that's uh that's the being like yeah get his that's like the thing the scene that had people cheering in 2000 get his ass get his ass i had a note of that too i'm like i think that this scene is kind of longer for for like the theatrical experience and like watching it in a group i think i'm guessing based on how we're all talking about this we all must have if we were watching it with someone i know i turned to her mad at me like this is getting a little bit a lot now yeah this is going with the whipping of the black man in the bathroom okay yeah yeah but get yours though i get it though it's you know in the the logic of these films cheater equals bad so yeah get your ass beat this is i mean this

is i i guess yeah like regina king she's so amazing and she's so talented and i feel like she's asked to play a spurned wife too frequently it's but she does it well right yeah um and then immediately after that is a scene of the whole family in church where baby sings and then medeir is like oh wow he's really good maybe i should be okay with him pursuing music which she says all of this with her facial expression um like it's like it truly is like like you said it was so happy like i get it because it was so clear when you went and she's crying and she's like oh everything's gonna be okay and then the family sits down for christmas dinner together they have a nice toast about no matter what, we are family. And that is the end of the film.

Let's take a quick break and then we will come right back. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017, was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unhurts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks. Daphne exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. And she paid the ultimate price. Listen to Crooks everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Oh my God, I would love it. I have to watch Lost. Oh, you have to. No, I know, I'm so behind. Katherine Hahn can sing. Oh, I'm really good at karaoke I know. I'm so behind. Katherine Hahn can sing. Oh, I'm really good at karaoke. What's your song? Yeah, what's your song?

Oh, I love a ballad. I felt Bjork's music. I just was like, who is this person? I got to hawk this slalom, Luge. Not hawk the slalom. I absolutely love it. It was somehow Shakespearean when you said it. It was somehow gorgeous.

Yee, my slok, you hollum. Listen to Las Culturistas on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Where does Big Money Players Network go? Whose storyline should we... I mean covered we've sort of covered some of it throughout the recap but where where should we start maybe just kind of starting in a sort of the general scope of things uh worth discussing a little bit and we've talked about this on the many many christmas episodes we have covered on the show in the past,

that this is a particularly white genre, usually. The cast will be entirely white or that any characters of color will have only very tertiary role kind of thing. So for this to be one of the few mainstream films that features a black family worth noting doesn't happen much doesn't happen often but it's still puffing that same old tropium of these christmas films of like gender normative bullshit and like all this like judeo-christian whatever the fuck it is stuff which is funny because it's always like to say it's like it's still the same kind of flavor you know what i mean but uh yeah it's but it's funny because there are moments where like i definitely look at it differently as a black person that other people just see like certain moments differently but i think those are the moments that you're like oh

thank you a movie that was kind of made for me as an audience member like pointing to things that are significant to me or maybe seem insignificant to other people but yeah right but like you said they're like well it's a Christmas movie so we still have to make it palatable to audiences and really maintain a lot of tropes and holiday movie tropes specifically and like yeah yeah so it's kind of it's in this strange place that also feels very 2007 yeah yeah extremely it's and then as as far as that i mean there's so many characters to to talk about but i i think miles you're totally right where it's like it's amazing that there's like a widely released black christmas movie but then within it it's all those christmas tropes

that are in like it's everyone is the most hetero person who has ever lived and they need to be married yesterday like that whole christmas like which i feel like is such a common like i mean that's every christmas movie is, why aren't you married? Why don't you marry? Hey, look at that guy. Why don't you marry him? And then she goes, okay. Where's the Christmas movie where, like, everyone just gets fucked up drunk?

Because that's more real to me than anything. Yeah, that's my Christmas. Yeah, like, I just remember going to other people's Christmases, and I'm like, yo, this is fucking dope. You guys just get fucking turnt up, and, like, that's what you do for Christmas? and I'm like, yo, this is fucking dope. You guys just get fucking turnt up and that's what you do for Christmas? And it's like, yeah, I don't know. We don't really go to church or anything. We get together, it's cold

and drink. I'm like, where's that movie? That even feels more real than sort of like it's almost portraying the Christmas people want to avoid, which is like, I don't want to go to my fucking house because then my aunt is going to be like, when are you going to get married? Or like, what are you doing for work? And I guess that's real to a certain extent.

But it's weird. I was saying this in another show. Like, it's like these Christmas movies, like their lack of flavor, like is the flavor. You know, that it's not going to be too confrontational or subversive or make you question anything at all. Aside from whether or not an Escalade is a good investment. But I think that's the draw. It's a manila envelope that won't offend you but also has a bow on it so it feels festive.

But it's still a manila envelope. And it's an auteur film. It's Preston A. Whitmore. Whitmore, Whitfieldfield it makes you think okay uh preston a whitmore the second directed produced and uh wrote this movie um so it's safe to say and like the research i did of like the interviews done at the time it seems like this is like based on his family at least to some extent um probably not all the same christmas but who knows yeah the thing that mainly the thing that mainly stood out to me in terms of like the many threads that

we have going on here is that i just wish that like it's for for the women in this movie most of their stakes are attached to a like romantic relationship with a guy and then with with the with the men the stakes are like very varied there's like music curse guy there's a wall guy there's like a wall nation there's a wall nation guy there's like jazz on the run guy like there's there's the stakes are so all over the like in a way that's really fun and engaging but when it comes to lisa and kelly and mel and even to an extent madir it's like they're all of their stakes are like something about my marriage or like i need a marriage or mel i mean we're i i feel like mel had kind of an interesting thread

introduced at the beginning of the movie that kind of goes nowhere. Right. She kind of gets lost in the shuffle. And so I wish that there were like the same kind of like

silly Christmas movie stakes for the women in the movie that the sons have. Right. Mm-hmm. But even those stakes too and like the traditional Christmas thing,

it's tied to like their role as homemaker or something. Yeah. It's like, I have to get the gift for the kid. Or this Christmas dinner has to be good, which is what I feel like the steaks are in our traditional just vapid shit Christmas films. Yeah.

But yeah, all the steaks are like, he's cheating on me. Or like, Santa, fuck. I hope Santa will fuck me uh or it's just like a very odd thing oh one weird one weird moment that really stuck out to me was this moment between joe and baby when the the first day like i think it's one of the first scenes where chris brown gets a camera yeah he's like i got a nikon yeah it's like spawn yeah it's like the rolls royce cameras i'm like well are we talking full format i mean is it a hustle blot or a mamiya i mean photographers might actually anyway that's a whole other

discussion um but with him when like joe delroy lindo comes out he goes huh you got a camera huh yeah i remember when i was your age i wanted a watch but we couldn't afford it and I was just like what like at least the camera offers baby some kind of mobility like in that it can create work but you just wanted some superficial like class signifier of a watch like it just seemed like oh it was like it it just they just said it and went forward and I was like that did it I I actually paused it like that didn't make sense as finding common ground like I don't understand actually paused it like that didn't make sense as finding common ground like I don't understand aside from just being like I desired things and I got it I had common ground that kind of stuff happened a lot where it's like dude like you're like I think I

I think I like I might understand what that conversation was supposed to be but it's just like right sometimes characters just kind of miss each other in this very bizarre way where i'm like i guess we're still having the same conversation there another thread that i thought was interesting in terms of mel and then it that kind of flames out right away is the relationship with mel and devon and how there's that conversation at the dinner table towards the beginning of the movie where devon goes to morehouse and malcolm kind of comes at him and like interrogates him for going to a historically black college and like he went to yale and kelly went to harvard and i was like oh this is like an interesting conversation but then it never that just goes away like that whole that thread kind of disappeared and then part of that

conversation is people being like oh yeah mel has been in school for so long because she just keeps switching her major based on whatever guy she's dating and it's just like well kelly kelly has this huge problem with lisa because she thinks she's like weak-willed and easily influenced but why like look at what mel is doing right why aren't you taking that go back to like miles's comments on the financials you're like okay they're they're like like when lisa's like we need to sell off our like we have to liquidate our part of the business because she's concerned that madir like that she's not gonna have enough money but it's like well then a great way would be for mel to stop going to an expensive college for seven years in a row that's a great

way to cut back on expenses for the family it's not seven years of a private college like it's just the money stuff is very confusing right yeah it's all oh i think even with um the harvard yale versus hbcu thing is like they were that was a quick way to be like those are the bougie black people in your family like the ones who got went to ivy league schools and forgot who they were or like you know that was a very quick brush stroke culturally to be like that's who they are and they came for the person who went to more house who then has like the much more articulated response as to why they go to morehouse meaning you know you sure you went to the place that people know about but for my values as a black man and like i want to go to this school but like it very much set the table like okay he's here and you i believe people are

down here because he just put the smack on you by explaining why he preferred that over your school right you know and it makes us like malcolm like it makes it makes malcolm's character clearer of like oh he's like an elitist right asshole but and but it made like that scene really i was like oh devon's cool i'm like excited to see where his story goes but then you're just like where did it go anywhere oh Does it go anywhere? Oh, no. It was funny, though, for him to basically recite the school's mission statement and really explain his beliefs in this way that everyone's like, wow, he's got a great head on his shoulders. Because the scene right before that is him barely able to say his own name. Yeah, right.

They're fucking with him. They're like, what'd you say? They're like, we're just fucking with you name. Yeah, right. They're fucking with him. They're like, what'd you say? They're like, we're just fucking with you. Come on, man. And then he's ready for like this intellectual battle at the dinner table.

A scene later. And then the way that scene resolves is like, well, one thing's for sure. Mel sucks. And that's like

the end of the scene. You're just like, all right, I guess. Just so many, so of the scene you're just like all right i guess just so many so many threads that you're like oh i guess that didn't come back did it yeah really despite all of like the women's stakes and storylines largely being attached to romantic interests as tropey and heteronormative as it is i will say that i liked the women in the movie way more than i liked really any of the men and i do appreciate that at least with there being a focus on these these relationships they have with the men in their lives that we there's like a sex positivity

component to this family that i appreciated that uh lisa doesn't have as much because she does call her sister a hoe but they're like openly talking about sex and my dear offers the batteries batteries to a vibrator she's like you really should switch to the womanizer honey i like how my dear is like i want my kids come, but I don't want them to sing. Like, all right, I guess. Well, because I appreciate that, especially because a lot of like Christmas movies are so like, and it makes sense because there are a lot of them are like family, children, family, like appropriate for the whole family. So they're like, this is just so sex doesn't exist in these worlds.

So that they talk about sex and like talk openly about it and generally have a sex positive attitude among the family i was like okay i like this yeah and it's like that not as i mean even like in that opening montage where like madir and joe are i mean it's not like they're not fucking but you, oh, this movie is like more open and like less. I don't know. Yeah, exactly. Like you were saying, just less holier than now about everything. And it's like, yeah, families do have sex.

Not with each other. People, you know. Not with each other. I don't know. Fred has that wild ass line in the beginning. He was like, girl, if you wasn't my cousin, I was like, Fred, please, Fred. Why doesn't anyone call that out? No, no.

And then in the middle of the movie, I'm like, where did that guy go? Because he was like, he came in so hot at the top of the movie and then disappeared. Yeah, you can't start any sentences if you weren't my cousin. Unless it's like, if you weren't my cousin unless it's like if you weren't my cousin you would be someone not related to me that's like the only way that sent like you start anything off like what okay good you ended it with a very literal description rather than like checking her ass out and being like so weird my cousin i'm like yo don't do all that shit but again that's uh those are like those moments where the script writer is not really checking about what that means.

And this character is openly just making his cousin uncomfortable because he's objectifying her at the Christmas thing. Well, speaking, so we touched on this a little bit too, but the way that Makai Pfeiffer, his role in the story, where he's aggressively staring at Kelly at the club and then they go home together but then the next morning he calls her then she ignores his call and then he shows up as Santa Claus uh and she's like what are you doing here this is weird and then I guess they make plans later that night that she has to bail on. I don't, but I don't remember that even being discussed. She, yeah,

she ends up, it's because all the Claude stuff happens. It's like the stuff happens. And then she and Lisa get into a fight. And I think she just ends up kind of like understandably dropping the ball. Right. Right. But then he shows up again after she doesn't show up to whatever plans they had and then he's just like

hey and then he spends the night because he's like i saw you when you were in ninth grade and i liked it oh yeah that was so you're like oh shit full from oh he was also in high school but i think he was like a bit older right but it was like i've never forgotten this thing since i was 15 and you're like oh damn fool for real and you came up to my house dressed as santa and shit okay that was so so tropes on tropes on tropes i'm like the guy from your past who won't stop showing up that's actually a good thing and that means love and nothing scary about that but kelly in general like the way her characters i guess of all the ways the characters are written i found kelly like to be the most confusing and just kind of like the way that story treats her is strange

because i'm not even totally sure what she does she mentions that she went to harvard and something something perfume but then i'm not even totally sure what she does more of there's more time dedicated to the fact that she's a bad cook than informing us what she does for a living well that's what she does i think that's what they're telling us is the occupation is irrelevant what you need to know is she's the one that can't cook right like very like that's the framing of it for us and then the like relationship between her i i i it was the kind of like a something i can see a number of ways but i liked that kelly and lisa you see they have like an arc like it's you know it's not even a guarantee that two women or two sisters will ever even get an arc in an ensemble movie like this so

i like that there was time that was like allotted for that but then the conversations are so kind of like basic where it's like you went to school and so you're a careerist and you stayed at home so you're not as good as me and love mom more yeah yeah when it's like what lisa's saying to an extent like made sense where she's like i had to help with the family business because everyone else kind of went their own ways but like why is she only mad at kelly about this when like quentin went off his own way like everyone left why why is like kelly bearing the brunt of this grudge i don't know i just their whole their whole arc was kind of so touch and go for me where I'm glad it was there,

but I just thought it was weird. Right. Because like Kelly is kind of presented as like the feminist of the family. She's the one she's focused on her career. She has a vibrator. She's calling out. Exactly. She's calling out Lisa first,

like being, uh, she's against cheating. Unbelievable. But then she's also like, Lisa, you are too accommodating. Also, it feels like there's almost like a... I don't know if it's victim blaming exactly,

but Lisa's in a bad relationship. Her husband is awful. He's cheating on her. She knows about it. What's that? Doesn't she say a line that kind of sums up her entire view on why she's okay with like there being a mistress? Because like there's a moment she's confronted and there's something to the effect of like,

well, you know, like. She's like, I don't want to start over. Yeah. What am I supposed to do? I won't be appealing in the dating pools and I'm not trying to start over. So I'm just going to stay in this miserable life. And then Kelly's like, that's a horrible excuse. Stand up for yourself.

Please don't say that. It's breaking my heart. That does happen, though. I was like, whoa. Yeah. Well, that's the thing. That's what's interesting about the movie, because it does touch on things that you're angry sometimes

at the characters, and you're like, but that's real shit, though. Keeping secrets, being ashamed of a relationship, being in a shitty relationship because you don't have the self-confidence to break out and advocate for yourself. There's real shit, although it's done poorly sometimes. And like my, oh, what about my kids? What about my, like, I'm going to look the other way because I want my kids to blah blah blah like it does happen but because kelly's constantly like calling lisa out and like being hostile to her for like again lisa's in this bad relationship and it feels like kelly hates her because malcolm sucks and it's like i don't know that maybe i'm misinterpreting that but well i think in a way like what you're describing sounds like when you're mad at your

friend because you know they can do better and you've seen them do better yet they're not and like that's sort of where it's at where it's like yeah i mean obviously fuck malcolm but also like girl like you you can do way better than this right but but it comes off in a weird way uh i don't know if there's a way to elegantly like the whole movie would have to be about that kind of relationship to pull the nuances out of like being upset with your friend for not like being in a bad relationship or your family right and because there's 18 other storylines happening like not enough time is dedicated to this one they even use the wonderful tropium of the deus ex blackina uh in the mo and dude bathroom scene where fucking delroy Lindo's like,

Oh, what is it? 25 grand? I got it right here. Now leave him alone. We got Christmas dinner. I was like, damn, that was solved very quickly. He's also a pastor. Do pastors have 25?

He's a deacon. Do deacons have $25,000 at all times? Absolutely. You been to a black church? The collection plate comes around. I was like, where did that money come from? He got 25 K. He got, he has 25,000. The pastor always has $25,000. That's a whole other movie. You're just, yeah, that's, and that's a whole other movie. That's why I'm like, Oh, see, like, it's funny. Like, cause I think of those tropes,

even going to black church, like when my grandparents would drag me and I was like, why do you give them all the money? I remember as kid i'm like how come the pastor has the nicest car and they're like well that's because you know they lead the congregation or whatever i'm like this sounds like a sick ass job you just scream for a couple minutes on sundays and you get a mercedes this movie should have been a like tv series and not a movie uh based on like everything that gets set up about all these family members so we want to go into the whitfield universe yeah where is it um but to go back to the kelly and lisa relationship i do appreciate and this you know again the nuances aren't explored as much as they should be this feels kind of surface level but i do appreciate at least that lisa comes around

and realizes like oh shoot I should see my worth. I should see my value. I should leave my cheating husband, whatever that means for me in my life. And they end on like a beat of kind of reconciliation and appreciation for each other. Because at least the lesson is like, I don know girl like men are gonna cheat the lesson is like yo if they're doing something you can you can fucking pull up for yourself and do like actually take action for yourself right i like where it lands and then it's like it does yeah it just seemed like there was just like a lot of interesting threads in this movie that they just didn't have the time i would imagine that like a lot of stuff because it's two hours long

and there's still so much more that you could explore just based on like what is kind of foreshadowed at the beginning where yeah it just seemed like the movie maybe didn't have enough time to get to every like every interesting thing that was presented but i did like where their relationship landed um and sisters can like i don't know i'm glad i'm glad that lisa got out of there and you know is it really gonna affect her children yeah where are her children the movie does not give a shit they're really mostly mirages yeah yeah they're figments of our imagination they're specters um we're running out of time.

Is there any other kind of big things we want to touch on? I guess to put a little bow on the Quentin stuff, he is acting like Macavity. He is- What is that? That's cats? That's cats. Yeah, Idris Elba is the villain in Cats.

He's Macavity the, is it like That's cats? That's cats. Yeah, Idris Elba is the villain in Cats. He's Macavity, is it like the mystery cat? I forget what it is, but he plays a cat in a fedora who does jump through glass at multiple times. And so when he jumped through breakaway glass, I was like, this is Macavity energy. But speaking to how him and Madeer where they land Quentin like he and his mom

having a strange relationship because music bad but then he like comes at her in a way that it's very clear like Madeer is in no uncertain terms being like he was a bad father he was a bad husband I've been with joe for

seven years like what if if because they say that they started dating when mel went to college which was seven years ago like can you just accept this and he's like no no dad might come back yeah which seems like a thing he's holding out for is like the potential return of senior but it i don't know i mean i guess but that's another thing you know that's real though too like of your like son father son you know relationship like this of just idealizing your parent and then not being able to see like object like look at them objectively as a human being where they're like that's not how a person should behave if they're a father that actually fucked me up and i'm i'm traumatized by it but you're still so caught up in it that your trauma is only telling you like he'll come back he'll come back and then

everything will be okay because then if he comes back i don't have to process any of the shit that i've been going through the last 20 odd years right because he will come back but again that's another thing that's very nuanced and like i'm looking at i'm like well there's a way to look at that being deep as fuck and there's another version where it just sounds like idris elba's being like you're not my dad and then it just ends there they just don't have the time to like tackle that story like it just sounds weird to caitlin's point like yeah if it were like an anthology like you could tackle like each of these almost could be like a very poignant film yeah around christmas that you're really like you know working around for most of the storylines but

yeah it ends up kind of getting a little vogue well then also with idris elba's character and arguably all the men in the movie and we've've talked about this too on Christmas episodes we've done, a lot of stories revolve, like a Christmas movie with a male protagonist, often redemption is a huge theme. There's often these like huge redemption arcs, which I generally find to be pretty tired and annoying. And it's also like, well, men, if you tried harder the first time, maybe you wouldn't have to be constantly redeeming yourself all the time. But, you know, men will always be given second chances. Right. Anyway, male redemption stories are a very popular Christmas narrative between Scrooge and the Grinch and Tim Allen and the Santa Claus and Michael Keaton and Jack Frost and so on and it feels like that applies to this movie as well where like Joe and

Quentin sort of redeem each other in each other's eyes there's like this redemption sort of with Claude being like oops I got arrested and oh, I have a secret wife, but now everything's fine. They also don't have time to resolve the Claude stuff. Also, he's AWOL. He's AWOL. What's going on there?

Right, but Joe calls in a favor with some military guy he knows, so that just gets seamlessly resolved. Wait, Joe did that again? Yeah, Joe says like, oh, I know some dude yo he really is deus ex blackina in this whole film yeah solves everything yeah like what is it your awol let me call colin powell real quick we need 25k i already have it in an envelope in this

way hold my left pocket that's 30 grand of the other one here right because he's also the one who arranges for baby to sing at church so that baby can kind of redeem himself in medeir's eyes so all he fixes everything for every son right and all of the men have these have these like redemption narratives whereas all the women are just like man or no man which man who boy like sex kissing yeah that was my last thing is I wish that because most of Madeira's, most of Madeira's stories as well are dedicated to her relationship with Joe, her relationship with Baby, her relationship with Quentin. And really the only times you see her interact with her daughter or any of her daughters,

she's like, how is your marriage or where is your marriage? And those are really the only things that we so i wish that you had there was a little more time with madeira and and her daughters too but you know we just needed an anthology we needed more time you think he went awol because he was like a conscientious objector to the iraq war oh that i really like yo that would have been lit i'm like yo hold on let this man speak real quick he's not wrong though but like but but he never yeah i don't know like i don't know we could what's the what's the reason behind it yeah that would be amazing if this was like late

bush administration yeah like political he's like why am i gonna go to another part of the world just to fight on behalf of corporations that are invested in my downfall in this country and collectively our entire family and our people? No, fuck that. I'm not spilling my blood for petrodollars anymore. I'm taking a stand, goddammit. Like, they would have been like, whoa. Yeah, like, whoa. Now that's a redemption arc.

A take too hot for 2007, though. That 2007, that would have been dixie chicks times five million what the fuck did this what did this service person say in the christmas movie instead oh petro war truly the monologue we we needed and we didn't get we deserve the reason we get instead is that he went awol because he requested a leave which was denied because he didn't get, we deserve the reason we get instead is that he went AWOL because he requested a leave, which was denied because he didn't tell his like military people that he

got married. And he went AWOL because Sandy would have been disappointed if they, so he's like kind of, it's almost like the blame is being put on her for the reason he went AWOL. Cause he's like, well, I like my secret wife that I haven't told anyone about would have been disappointed. My secret

wife. My secret wife. Hell yeah. Oh god. Claude. You know we just needed the Claude thing that's a whole series all its own like there's just so much going on. Comrade claude

i'm like now officially fully open to a uh a mini series that uh writes out baby yes eliminates no one where he goes to that camera he becomes terry richardson you don't want to see it actually it's pretty it's pretty grim like we just don't want to see it, actually. It's pretty grim. We just don't talk about baby anymore. Does this movie pass the Bechdel test? Yeah, but you think it would pass more. You think it would? There are quite a few women in the movie, and they do interact,

but often the conversations revolve around husbands and boyfriends and stepdad figures, et cetera. But there are a few. But they do talk about like sisterhood and being bad at cooking, which technically counts. Sticks to your strengths, honey. Offering batteries. Vibrator batteries, yes.

Kool-Aid. Stick to your strengths. As far as our nipple scale, zero to five nipples based on an examination of intersectional feminism so for me i don't know i'm kind of torn on this one because on one hand it really adheres to some just you know holiday movie tropes some 2007 tropes 2007es, the way women are presented in media tropes in terms of like the women all have like stakes and narratives surrounding like romantic relationships with men. So coming at it from that perspective, it's like, meh. But on the other hand, because this is typically such a white genre in Christmas movies.

Aggressively white. So aggressively white. Like, I don't know, like Hollywood's just like, only white Christians celebrate wintertime holidays, right? So it's just, it's nice and refreshing to see a Christmas-oriented movie that features a Black family. The fact that it's written and directed by a Black filmmaker who based a lot of these characters on either members of his family or himself. So it's a Black creator telling his own story. I really like the women in the story. I wish we had gotten to know them better.

I wish we had, they had narratives outside of romantic pursuits. We do learn a little tiny bit about each one as far as like interior and exterior lives, but it's always pretty vague. So it's like, I don't know, do we know that much about them?

So I don't know. There's just, it's kind of a mixed bag for me. Like I said, I think this would have served better as like a series. I would have, I would love a show about this family. If we had like 10 bottle episodes about each character, that would be like all the story, all these stories or most of them. Some of like the Chris Brown one probably scrapped that.

But like all of them were like, you're like, oh, this is really something. But then where it is ago. So with that in mind, I don't know, maybe like a two and a half or three I'm leaning. I just, like I said, I really like the characters. The performances are amazing, especially Loretta Devine is incredible. Iconic. She's the best. Regina King, amazing.

Each of those characters deserve better. I agree. I'm going to land on a three, I think. And I'll give them all to Idris Elba's Macavity. Just kidding. Yeah, I think I'll just split them among the four main women in the story. Whatever that fraction works out to. I'm leaning around the same at 2.53 for much the same reason.

I mean, I guess it really is like it is it's amazing to see like i think we've been having this conversation um over the past uh several months more and more like movies about black joy and movies about families and movies about the american black experience that is not really deeply shaped by trauma and this is the perfect genre to explore that and. But it's so rarely done. This movie's existence and success is incredible. Especially this fucking cast is unreal. It's just the careers that the vast majority of this cast has gone on to have. Minus Chris Brown.

A lot of upward trajectories and a notable downward one. But all that said, like the cast is so incredible. The chemistry between everyone is so good. And then, yeah, my note is kind of the same thing of like, if you're going to bring in such an amazing group of female actors, don't just give them stories about husbands and boyfriends. And like, it, it's a waste of the talent. And I really,

I mean, I don't think that we really know anything about these women outside of their relationship to men and sons outside of the Lisa Kelly, um, sisterhood, but all of their conflicts revolve around their relationships towards men. So I just, I, i i i was frustrated by that because it's like you have fucking regina king she can do anything like let's see more let's

see like questions i had as i was watching i was like well what what would lisa have done if she didn't feel like she had to stay back with the family like did she have an aspiration that was kind of ruined in her view by the fact that kelly went on to have her career follow-up question what is kelly's career what does she do why do we talk more about whether she's fucking santa or not then what her job is like there are just so many especially given the variety of the male plots and how i think pretty much without exception all the male plots were at least tethered in some way to their career where like claude is a wall my cavity is my cavity all of their stories are related to their careers. And we don't even really know what the female characters do or wanted to do outside of Madeira owns a cleaners.

But we don't know anything about that really either. Like, right. So and then on top of I mean, and I wish that we saw more of madeira and her daughters selfishly because i want more scenes with loretta divine and regina king but like that's a me thing so i think that this movie is really good and it's it's especially for its time it's like it's very of its time in a lot of ways and we can tear that apart all day but it's a movie it's a joyful movie about a black american family we don't get that a lot. And I hope that we continue to get more in this genre that care about what women are doing that aren't with men.

So I'll go. I guess I'll go a three as well. And I will give my nipples to give two of them to Mel because I want I also I really liked her. And she disappeared about halfway through the movie. And I will give my other nipple to Madeira because Loretta Devine rocks. Truly. What about you, Miles? Maybe two and a half three maybe i'll go three rather just to give a slight advantage because it's weird like half of the film negates the other half so you're like

but also like i'm also looking at this through the lens of it being a christmas film so i'm already like this is not a like a movie really i i really consider these kinds of films like absolute background noise during the holidays um because none of them know there's it's really hard to find any film that's offering anything of substance and just like the way the genre has like morphed over the years as it is like flavorless is the flavor. So I'll give it I'll give them three and just, you know, maybe I would knock them down because that escalade line about being a good investment really fucking pissed me off no fuck it too too wow i don't know why no no no no i'm sorry but that has nothing to do with the representation of women uh so i will still keep it through i'm sorry i have to keep i have to sort of compartmentalize yeah one must hell yeah uh well miles thank you so much for for being here for talking this christmas with us

uh where can people follow you check out your stuff tell us everything oh there's it's not much just miles of gray wherever wherever you got stuff and uh daily zeitgeist uh just talking every day if you want to hear my takes on the sordid universe of ours uh or 420 day fiance if you want to hear me just be high and talk about 90 day fiance hell yeah um you can follow us on social media on twitter on instagram on our patreon aka matreon which is at patreon.com slash spectral cast it's a fun place this month because we're doing the terrible Netflix ones. We're talking Princess Switch 2 and Christmas Prince 2. Princess Switch?

Did I say Christmas Princess? Princess... Where are we? It's the Prince... The Prince Christmas... The Christmas Prince Switch... Switched again. Switched again. Switched again.

The royal baby. The prince. So for more of that, you can go to our Patreon. It's only $5 a month. And it gets you two bonus episodes every month. And then for our merch, you can go to tpublic.com slash the Bechtel cast and grab some merch for holiday gifts. Go for it. Who's stopping you?

I dare you. Thank you so much for listening and to Miles again. And we'll be back with another holiday disaster next week. Indeed. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye-bye. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017, was assassinated.

Crooks Everywhere unearths the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody.

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