The Bechdel Cast - Twilight with Diannely Antigua

Episode Date: May 1, 2025

We're irrevocably re-covering Twilight (2008) with special guest Diannely Antigua! As if you could outrun us!!! Here are the various pieces / links from the episode: https://www.hcn.org/issues/44-11/the-quileute-reservation-copes-with-tourists-brought-by-twilight/ https://www.burkemuseum.org/static/truth_vs_twilight/  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqloPw5wp48&t=1s linktr.ee/bechdelcast    Follow Diannely on Instagram at @nellfell13 and check out her website at https://diannelyantigua.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

On the Bechdel cast the questions asked movies have women in them are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism the patriarchy's effing vast start changing it with the Bechdel cast. Hello Bechdel cast listeners Jamie and Caitlin here a little plug at the top it's all coming together it's all happening I am going to be going on a book tour for the paperback release of my book, Raw Dog, The Naked Truth About Hot Dogs. Ever heard of it?

Gasp. It is coming out in soft cover this May. If you're hearing this, it is out right now. If you are the kind of person that doesn't want to spend $28 on a book, fair enough. We have a more affordable option. And if you haven't purchased the book and maybe you're able to now, it's also a great gift. I sound so desperate. The thing is, it's a soft cover book and people love those. I love a flaccid book.

It's a floppy little book. And if you do have the hardcover and you're a completionist, there is also a brand new forward that I wrote. And also the acknowledgments have been adjusted to acknowledge that my agents were Zionists. So I don't really thank them anymore. So there's a thrilling addition there as well. But there is new stuff in the book and it costs less and we love that Um, I will be going on tour

Throughout the country to promote the new book and if you're a Bechdel head and you're in the area This is a really great chance to come and hang out. It's all right. I'm at bookstores I did kind of bigger shows the first time around but this time we're just chilling So I love that for you Katelyn with your permission. I'm just gonnastores. I did kind of bigger shows the first time around, but this time we're just chilling. So I love that for you, Katelyn, with your permission. I'm just going to rattle off some dates. What if I was like, no, no click. I'm going to go pee. No, please, by all means, tell us. Okay. May 13th, 2025. It's almost my birthday. I know, I'm missing your birthday. It's an act of violence. I will be at North Fig Bookshop in Los Angeles,

hosted by Friend of the Cast, Julia Clare. May 14th, I will be at Carmichael's Bookstore in Louisville, Kentucky. On May 15th, I will be at the Cambridge Public Library in Massachusetts with the Harvard Bookstore, and I will be at the Cambridge Public Library in Massachusetts with the Harvard Bookstore, and I will be in conversation with one of my dear friends, PBS's own Tori Bedford. On the 19th of May, I will be in Portland, Maine

at Longfellow Books, hosted by friend of the cast, Maya Williams, I am very, very excited. On the 20th, I will be going down to Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. To my home state. They're going to be begging. They're like, where are they? I will be at the Midtown Scholar Bookstore and Cafe in conversation with Joe Piazza. Then on May 21st, I will be at the Fountain Bookstore in Richmond, Virginia. And on May 22nd, I will be at Copperfield Books in Petaluma, California.

And finally, on May 31st, I will be at Marin Country Mart, which is also with Copperfield's book in Larkspur, California. So if you live in those areas, please come out. I would love to see you. I'd love to chat. Please recommend your favorite hot dog. Let's talk Bechtel cast.

Let's do whatever. And there will be dates announced later in the summer. So if you would like a show or a signing to happen in your town, please reach out and I will send it to my publisher and be like see I should go there anyways that's a great it's begging works sometimes yeah and we'll link this full thing in the description but see you soon I'm making a little, and that's the Jamie Loftus promise.

I can't wait to see. So if you click the link in the description, it will take you to the full page where you can register to go to these events. They are all free events. So come and hang out. And provided that I get my shit together in time, there will also be speakers from local unions

at all of these signings So come out make some friends come hang out and let's eat some hot dogs beautiful We'll throw the link to be able to access Registration for the events on our link tree as well link tree slash Bechtel cast so there's no excuse not to come It's free. It's fun. I'll be wearing a little outfit. Come buy the book. Yay.

Enjoy the episode. The Bechdel Cast. About three things I was absolutely certain. Oh my God. First, The Bechdel Cast is a podcast. Okay. Second, there was a part of the podcast and I didn't know how potent that part might be. The thirsted for knowledge and amazing discourse.

And third, the hosts, Kaitlyn and Jamie, were unconditionally and irrevocably in love with each other. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I like it. Thank you. Wow. Thank you, Stephanie Meyer.

She's a Mormon and they're pretty homophobic. I don't know if she would endorse what was just said. I don't think so. But I, it's what I want. It's what a lot of Twilight fans want. Every fan community wants a queer romance, but sometimes you just end up with Bella and Edward and you got to project the rest. And that's what we're here to talk about today. Welcome to the Bechdelcast, the podcast where we take your favorite movies and talk

about them from an intersectional feminist lens using the Bechdel test as a jumping off point for discussion. This is, I think, one of a handful of episodes of where we're covering a movie for a second time. We first covered this movie, I did not realize how long ago it was. My brain was not fully developed the last time we covered this movie. Were you like, how old?

I was 24. Whoa. I was bravely 24 years old. I was just, the last synapses were snapping into place. And so I cannot be held accountable for anything I said in 2017. You can be held accountable. I am repulsed to even think about what might have happened on that episode. I am afraid to go back and listen to it. We may or may not keep it up. We might delete it. Our guest was my best friend, JT, and we just, it was only like a few months into the us doing the podcast.

I don't think we need to apologize for something we did in 2017. The reason we're recovering it is because like a lot of early, you know, this was before podcasting was our full-time job. We didn't have the time or the resources to put in as much research as we put into the show now. And most of you, I'm assuming, were not listening back then. So while it was a fun episode, I did not re-listen to it. I don't care what I had to say in 2017, nor should you.

But I also think that, you know, like intersectional feminist discourse has evolved thankfully quite a bit since 2017. So we have grown as has the world. I mean, you know, whatever. There's been a lot of regression, but on a personal level, there's been growth. And there's also been just like,

this is the series people will never shut the fuck up about. It's really interesting to watch in the last, and I say that with love because I've watched all of it. Twilight Discourse is something that just as it begins to die down, there's a new angle. And baby, we're going with it. Like in the last, I would say two to three years, Twilight discourse, I think because of like the 20 year popularity cycle of things, people are getting nostalgic for the Twilight years and now we're talking about it again and there's new things to talk about. We're back in the Twilight zone. We're in the Twilight zone today. And so anyways, if you listen to our first episode, we don't know what it said. We hope we did an OK job. But today we're here to do a better job because we're grown ups now and our brains are working

better than ever. Well, I wouldn't say that necessarily. Well, not Kate. Mine's better than ever. No, I'm kidding. Mine is descending into mush. OK, so maybe we were working on the same amount of brain power cumulatively that we were in 2017. But but the thoughts will be different. Okay, but we're using the Bechtel test as

a jumping off point. Caitlin, what is that? I forget. Well, my amazing memory will tell you. It's a media metric created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechtel, sometimes called the Bechtel Wallace test. There's many versions of it. We require that in order to pass, two characters of a marginalized gender must have names, they must speak to each other, and their conversation has to be about something other than a man. But you know, it's just a jumping off point. It's not the end all be all. There's much more to discuss. And in the case of the Twilight Saga, so much to discuss. We talked about, I'm sure a lot of things in our first episode,

but it turns out there's actually 50 more things to talk about than we initially realized. And so we have brought in an expert, an enthusiast, someone who has spent time in the trenches with the Twihards to come and educate us today. She's a poet and educator. She's the author of two poetry collections, former poet laureate of Portsmouth, New Hampshire, a host of Bread and Poetry podcast.

It's Dianeli Antigua. Hello and welcome. Dianeli Antigua Hello, hello. Hi, hi, hi. Dianeli Antigua Welcome. Dianeli Antigua Tell us, what is your relationship to Twilight? Dianeli Antigua Oh, where shall I begin? I think my relationship with Twilight first came from the books. I started reading the books when I was a teenager and fell in love with those first.

And I had a really strange upbringing. I was raised in a cult. And around the years where I started reading the Twilight books, I was starting to emerge from the kind of like sheltered cocoon that I was in for so many years. So I was about 18, 19 years old. And when the movies came out, I was just like first experiencing life in the world and the secular world.

And Twilight was my, almost like my rum spring, It was my like coming out into society. And I remember when I watched Twilight, I went to the Midnight Premiere because I was one of those like Midnight Premiere bitches. I was wearing my Team Edward shirt. I was wearing a tutu, like warmers. We saw the pictures. They're incredible. Thank you. I was wearing fingerless gloves that I got a hot topic. Like I just like went all out and I remember buying a NOS from like the gas station and I went to and I went to the midnight premiere and it was like just life-changing for me at the time and many, many years have passed since then. I definitely have a different relationship to Twilight at this point, but there's still like that little girl, that like 19 year old girl,

who is madly in love with Edward and has, you know, posters of him in her bedroom and shit. Like I was so obsessed. That might be it, but I'm sure there's more. I'm sure there's more. Well, share whatever comes up. Yeah, truly. Don't hesitate. This is a safe space for TwiHearts. it but I'm sure there's more. I'm sure there's more. Well share whatever comes up. Yeah truly don't hesitate this is a safe space for TwiHearts. Thank you, thank you. Jamie remind us what's your relationship? Oh gosh I wonder what if I said anything defensive in my first when we talked

about this movie like eight years ago. I mean you were, so. I can't be accountable for what I did when I was 24 years old, a full grown adult. So I read the books, I think maybe, not right when they came out, but like, they definitely were gathering steam in the middle school contingency as they were coming out. I remember my mom introduced me to them because my mom was both really into Twilight and Fifty Shades of Grey.

And to this day, I'm positive she has no idea that Fifty Shades is horny or Twilight, like non-Mormon Twilight fanfic basically. Yes. But she was really into both series. And so she, I think that there was like this bizarre shame feedback loop going on between the two of us where she would get, she got the boxed set of I think the first three

Twilight books that were out at the time and then read them herself and then gave them to me as if to say like, these are yours, you bought these. And then I read them and I don't know weirdly it feels sort of in conversation with Bella Swan herself Where I was very invested in I think is a lot of tweens are in being not like other girls And part of being not like other girls to me was not liking Twilight I'm part of being not like other girls to me was not liking Twilight. And part of being not like other girls to me was not liking High School Musical, even though I very much enjoyed both of these things in total privacy.

Like I was completely, I vividly remember blowing through the first Twilight book in like this gnarly old hammock we had in our backyard during the summer when I couldn't be seen or be accounted for. And then literally going to school the next year and being like, what's that? Ew. And then like, the same thing with the Jonas Brothers. I went to a Jonas Brothers concert and I was like, what is this? Meanwhile, I bought a ticket. Like, I don't know. Like, it just, it's something that young people do.

And we can talk about that, like the shame that like culture attaches to. Do you like something like Twilight? You're a freaking loser, because that's for girls. It was a big thing. And I think that it's, yeah, it's tied up in like how not like other girls stuff is like internalized misogyny to some extent.

Yeah, yeah. So I was writing high on that. and how not other girl stuff is internalized misogyny to some extent. So I was riding high on that. Meanwhile, reading Twilight books like my life depended on it. By the time the movies came out, I saw the first movie. I remember seeing the first movie. I was in high school by that point and I was at the tail end of my like, so weird that I'm at this movie the day it comes out, how could this have happened? But I did see it the day it came out.

I kind of fell off after that. I moved on to whatever the fuck I was doing. So I didn't see the other movies, I don't think, in theaters and I'm not even sure to this day if I've seen all of them. I feel like I've only seen one of the, because the last one's in two parts. Yes. I don't think I've seen one of them. I feel like I've only seen one of the, because the last one's in two parts. Yes.

I don't think I've seen one of them. I'm not sure. I read all the books. I haven't seen all the movies. That might be blasphemy. But I do feel like revisiting the first book. So also I really overprepared for this episode. I reread the book.

Yeah. Wow. I walked 14 miles yesterday just pacing around listening to the audiobook, sweating my ass off being like, I gotta get it all in. And then there's also been so much Twilight discourse that there are so many essays. There's one essay I'll be citing extensively today from Capacious Journal that is called Still Not As Gay As Twilight, Postmodern Affect, Nostalgia,

and Queer Twilight Renaissance during the COVID-19 pandemic. And that is where I think it was during the initial lockdown period, where you saw this kind of resurgence of Twilight discourse that has, I think was going on well into last year because there was a very popular ContraPoints video that came out on that topic. So I think it went on for nearly five years,

but I think because so many people became nostalgic for comfortable feelings during lockdown, that all of a sudden Twilight was back. And I watched and engaged with a lot of that. and Twilight was back. And I watched and engaged with a lot of that. And I don't know, I just feel like I'm constantly engaging with Twilight while I would consider myself a casual fan at best. Anyways, rewatching the first movie, it's a good movie. I don't know what to say.

There's a lot of issues with it, but when it comes to do I understand why people absolutely loved this movie and do I feel like it captures this very specific, not like other girls fantasy? 100%. And the soundtrack is still great. Oh my God. Yes. Yeah. So rock and roll. Oh my God. Super massive black hole baseball scene. I'm like, you can't do better than that. Oh my goodness. The baseball scene is.

Is so hot. Cinema, it's so good. I love the baseball scene. Every day, like the baseball scene's the best part, but I get it. And I also have really enjoyed going through people's, you know, reflections on this, cause there's also a

massive queer fan base for this essentially Mormon movie. So we'll get into it. But anyways, Caitlin, remind us, what is your history with Twilight? Oh, gosh, I'm sure I had a better memory of it on the first episode. But again, I will not be going back to listen to that. And I don't think our listeners should either. Please don't. Well, then just take it down. I don't think our listeners should either. Please don't. Well, then just take it down. I mean, maybe we will. Anyway. What are you edging? Like Bella and Edward?

Yeah. Anyway, so I, the first few books came out, I don't really know the timeline of like what was published when? 2005, six, seven and eight. Okay. And then, thank you so much. You're welcome. And then so the first movie came out in 2008, right? Yeah. Okay. So it wasn't until probably 2010, I would say.

Again, memory is murky, but it was well after the books had come out and probably the first one or two movies had come out before. And of course, I had heard people talking about it. I have a distinct memory of chatting with some people when I moved to New York, which was in 2008, and I was talking to a friend and her sister, and it was like a sister older than me, so she would have been like in her mid twenties at the time.

And she's like, yeah, Twilight is the best thing I've ever read. I want to date Edward, da da da. And I was just like, what are you talking about? What's this Twilight thing? And then the movie started coming out. And because I hate books and I love movies, I was like, okay, fine, I'll check this out.

And I think, I don't remember if this was the case or not, but it might've been JT, our guest on the first episode that we did on this movie, that kind of got me into it. I don't know if he showed me the first movie. Again, massive queer fan base. Yeah. Either he showed me the first one or I definitely started watching the other ones with him to

the point where I think I saw Eclipse, Breaking Dawn, part one and two in theaters with him. Oh, so you saw you were like on the other half. You're a late Twilight bloomer. Yeah. What did you think of the movies at the time? I'm so curious because that would have been like well into Twilight Backlash era too. And I was a part of that. I was like, these movies suck.

They're bad. And yet I was going to see them. I mean, you're not wrong. But I mean, they're not. Okay, here's the thing. There's a distinction between I like it, and this is good. And both of those, all of these things are subjective, right? Right.

That's camp. I was like, this is not good. And I don't necessarily like it, but I do. There's some weird, like, I'm compelled by these. I'm entertained by these. I can't stop watching them. I'm not really enjoying myself or am I? I don't know.

There's like this, I cannot explain how I experience. Yeah. Yeah. That's like Edward himself. Like everything about him draws you in. His voice, his smell, the way he looks. Exactly. But I know that he's dangerous.

Yeah. And that there's something to be feared about it. What do you think? You could outrun him? Do you think you could fight back? Because you couldn't, because you're never gonna. I couldn't. He's killed people. He's like a drug to you. He's like a drug to you.

He is my own personal brand of heroin, and I him. That scene is the most Hot Topic coded scene that has ever been committed to film. It's completely blue. Like this whole movie is blue and I support it. Yeah. Dina, you were team Edward. Yes, I was.

Yeah. And then Caitlin, did you ever choose a team or were you just team hater? No, I was hardcore team Jacob. I was team Jacob as well. Yeah. Which is canonically, I mean, Jacob ends up marrying a baby. Yes. Yes.

Which ContraPoints argues is a way of the series having it always of like, he falls in love with an extension of Bella and this is how they're able to like justify this like polycule that they create. Yeah, he like loved her egg, you know? Yeah, and you're like, that's well, that's disgusting. It got harder and harder to be team Jacob as the books went on, I will say. Definitely. Because I don't remember very much about breaking down at all. But I vividly remember the scene where he's like, I'm in love with your unborn baby. And being like, no, my team is down. My team is my team. We've lost. We've lost.

He's in love with the baby. We're cooked. Yeah. And I think I went back and read, I don't know if I finished the first Twilight book or just read a good enough of a chunk of it where I did basically I just wanted to confirm that the writing was as bad as I had heard that it was. And I did confirm that but I didn't read any of the other books. But I have seen I would say I've seen the first Twilight movie probably a good 15 times. Whoa. Yeah. And then it tapers off. Like I've only seen Breaking Dawn, part two, that one time in theaters, I'm pretty sure. Yeah, I think I've seen it, like, at least five times,

and I don't think I've seen a few of the movies ever. Yeah. It's weird, like, there are movies that I consider to be my favorite, like, among my favorite movies that I have seen fewer times than I've seen Twilight, which I would not consider at all to be one of my favorite movies. I cannot explain this phenomenon,

and yet it exists. So I have a weird relationship with Twilight. I think it's trash, and yet I know it very well. But I think that's like a very common experience. Yeah. Don't humans love trash though? Like don't we love trash? Like reality TV is trash. Yeah. Don't humans love trash, though? Don't we love trash? Reality TV is trash. Exactly. I love McDonald's.

That's trash. But it's good trash. But it's delicious trash. Yeah, except boycott McDonald's. Right, right, right. But yes. But the idea behind it. Yes.

Yeah, I don't know. There's been a lot of, I think in this most recent past five years discourse around Twilight have moved forward the conversation around this franchise in an interesting way of almost getting back to the shame and projection that was beneath some but not all of the Twilight backlash. That's the thing is like, it's just very complicated because there's a billion very valid critiques of this franchise, many of which we'll discuss today. And we'll just place here, we're not discussing the entire franchise today

because we would never leave the Zoom call if that were the case. So we are discussing the first movie, the book, the cultural sensation at the time of the first movie today and then we will cover subsequent movies on the show down the line just because it's just like such a broad topic that yeah, if there are certain elements of this franchise you would like to hear us talk more about,

please let us know and we will make a point to discuss that in future installments. But there's just, there really is just like so, so, so much to talk about. Truly. And let's try to begin. But first, we'll take a quick break. And then we'll come back for the recap. And we're back. All right. I'm really mean during this recap. So apologies in advance. I like that you're like, I'm a Twilight hater to the grave. Caitlin, you're not like other she-thays.

You're just not. I'm not. I am an intellectual. No, just kidding. Didn't you get a film degree somewhere, right? Thank you so much for bringing something up that I would never mention, which is that I do have a master's degree in screenwriting from Boston University. Oh Yeah, that's what I thought. Yeah, but again would never mention it

So I actually don't even know how anybody knows that because I've never said it before I didn't I just learning. Yeah anyway content warning at the top for abusive relationship dynamics stalking gas lighting things of that nature. And here we go. We open on a deer in the woods, prey, if you will.

And there's also a predator, something or someone is chasing the deer and grabs it. And then it goes, meh. This part of this movie is a real earworm. Shout out Carter Burwell. It's wild how many really generationally talented people worked on this movie. Because Carter Burwell is like iconic. He's so good.

My favorite part is when it starts out being non-diegetic and then suddenly it's diegetic because Edward is playing it on the piano, the score of the movie. And you're just like, whoa. I like it because I think Carter Burwell is probably the most famous for being like the Coen Brothers go to guy, but also he did Twilight Twilight and I support that. It's a good score. It's pretty good. Okay, so there's this deer. Then we cut to Bella Swan played by Kristen Stewart who is moving from Phoenix, Arizona because her mom wants to travel around with her brosif of a husband instead of raise her teenage daughter. So...

Yeah. Renee... Renee's a real piece of work. Yeah, she is. So Bella gets shipped off to Forks, Washington to live with her dad, Charlie Swan. And while he's hot, ACAB includes Charlie Swan. Mm-hmm. It really does because he's the chief of police of Forks, Washington. Okay, so he and Bella have a very awkward relationship, but he does buy her a truck

off of Billy Black, played by Gil Birmingham. His son is Jacob Black, played by Taylor Lautner, a childhood friend of Bella's. He mentions that he goes to school on the reservation because he is a member of the Quileute nation, even though this is one of the very many valid criticisms of this movie, Taylor Ladner is not an Indigenous actor and the representation of Quileute people, lots to discuss there. STACEY We'll talk about that further, yeah. STACEY Yes. In any case, he lives and goes to school on the Quileute reservation, and Bella's like, oh darn, you were my only friend here.

Like it would have been nice to know someone at school, but she's not even gonna know him. And Jacob in Twilight Part One, Sweetie Pie. Yes, yeah. Also Taylor Lautner bad wig. Not even in the top 10 problems, but did really strike me in this viewing. I'm like, oh, it's doing a lot of work.

It's like a Nicole Kidman grade wig. Yeah. Anyway, so Bella has this new truck and she loves this busted rusty ass truck from the 1970s because she's not like the other girls. Then Bella heads to school, a bunch of students are like, Oh my God, who are you? You're the coolest and most interesting person I've ever seen. This is I think like in retrospect, one of the most interesting dream fulfillments, like aspects of the story that probably made it so appealing where it's like, what if you were truly the most normal person with no distinct features and yet everyone was obsessed with you?

Yeah, like who is Bella Swan? Like we don't know anything about her hobbies. We don't know really what she likes. Truly. She's just like blank canvas, but everyone loves that. They can just project whatever they want onto this like very boring Bella like blank canvas but everyone loves that they can just project whatever they want onto this like very boring Bella Swan blank canvas which is like not incredibly like yeah it's like that's very common for

protagonists but it's like glaring with Bella because literally we see her just like sitting in a room staring into the middle distance when she's not like talking to Edward Cullen you You're like, all right. I know this is a self-insert character, but you've got to give her an interest. It is wild. Sometimes she reads a book. Sometimes she does read a book.

And they are, interestingly, the exact books that Stephanie Meyers loves. Sorry, Stephanie Meyers, singular, Meyers. Yeah, one Meyers. One Meyers. But yeah, Bella, I mean, singular, Meyer. Yeah, one Meyer. One Meyer. But yeah, Bella, I mean, that's a very common criticism of her and husband for 20 years, but like, it is true. You know, she doesn't have a personality.

Unless clumsy is part of a personality. Which oh my god, which in the book is exacerbated to such an absurd degree. I clocked literally over 40 mentions in the book of her being like, what if I fall? And Edward's like, I know, there's a big chance you'll fall. Can you watch where you're going? I'll make sure you don't trip and die. It really is, it's so silly. But it's, I mean is like, it's so silly.

But it's, I mean, again, that's the pulling from the Lizzie McGuire school of heroin. You're like, well, sure, she's conventionally beautiful, but she falls. Yeah. But that doesn't stop everyone at school being obsessed with her, including such characters as Eric, Mike, Tyler, Jessica, played by Anna Kendrick, and Angela, played by Christian Cerratos. So now she has all these new friends immediately. So her concerns about not having any friends at school were, she didn't have to worry.

Then at lunch, Bella spots a group of hot 35 year olds and her new friends tell her that these are the Cullens, a family of foster kids who were adopted by Dr. Cullen and who are dating each other, including Rosalie and Emmett are a couple, Alice and Jasper are a couple, although one of them is single and this is Edward Cullen. Because he's not like other vampires. One of the things that I don't think I ever fully registered because she looks so different in this movie, but that I appreciated because the other Catherine Hardwick movie we've covered on this show is 13.

And Nikki Reed, the star and co-writer of 13 plays Rosalie, which I never noticed because again, wig, like I just didn't know. And the makeup, the makeup in this movie is horrible. Like all of the vampires, like you can even tell if you look at their like collar and like their neck, you can tell that it hasn't been blended correctly. Brutal. Yeah, you can still see like the pink of their flesh

when they're supposed to be pale as fuck. So I don't know who the makeup artist was, but you've got to blend all the way down to the neck honey. All the way down to the neck. I wonder if that's why there's so much blue color correction in the movie. Cause it's like we got to hide the bad makeup job. Make it blue, make it blue. Maybe that'd be incredible. I forget what 2000s movie we were discussing recently where I also think that the teen fashion of the late 2000s are doing nobody any favors in this because I feel like teen fashions of the late 2000s really aged teenagers. There are so many pictures of me as like a junior in high school

where I'm like my aunt could be wearing this like I'm wearing these like ponchos and like long vests. And you're like, why am I wearing what teachers were wearing? But also these like big fake Victoria's Secret bras that my cousin would give me. So it's like huge fake titties in like the most clothing possible. Yeah, the bombshell bra adds two cups, honey. I used to work at Victoria's Secret,

so I know all the secrets. My cousin worked there and so she was like, okay, this is going to change your life. And it didn't. They do look old though. They do. Yeah, with all due not the actors fault, because I think the actors actually are younger than they look in the movie. They're all in their 20s.

Oh, really? Because they come on screen and I'm like, those people are my contemporaries currently right now as someone in their late 30s. No, I think that they're all, it's, I mean, they're not high schoolers. I think Kristen Stewart is one of the only actual high school age actors. Yeah, most of them are in their 20s. But I think, I don't know, like, they were just done dirty. Yeah. In any case, there's one single Cullen, and it's Edward.

And he and Bella make eyes at each other. Then they get paired up as lab partners in science class. Except Edward is repulsed by Bella, although he also can't stop staring at her. It's this weird like disgust slash fascination thing that will understand why soon. And she notices how repulsed he is by her and she plans to confront him about this, except Edward doesn't show up at school for days on end so she she can't

confront him right away. Meanwhile, cut to the woods, there's some dangerous creature who's attacking people on the outskirts of town so that's looming over the story. Finally Edward shows up at school again and he's no longer acting completely repulsed by Bella. He's actually being kind of friendly. And so now they're looking at an onion under a microscope and we're like, wait a minute, onions have layers?

Shrek? Shrek. Wow. I didn't pick up on that. That's why you have the master's degree. Yeah, that's exactly right. Yes. Okay, so they're like now talking kind of about nothing. He also says something like, you're very difficult for me to read, because he loves making creepy declarations like that. Yeah, and also, you know, arguably, because there's nothing going on.

There's nothing. No, that was Bella hatred. No, I, I like Bella. But what is going on behind those hazel eyes to borrow a song title? Yeah. And speaking of eye color, she notices that Edwards eyes are a different color than the last time she saw him. And he makes an excuse about the fluorescent lighting. AKA, this is the beginning of him gaslighting her. And kind of the most egregious way as possible in the movie. And just having reread the book, they really turn up the casualness with which the gaslighting

happens up to like a 14 because also Robert Pattinson's deliveries are so mean sounding. And I guess the way I imagined it was a little more like, no, no, it couldn't have been, I mean, more the way I've experienced gaslighting, of like, no, no, girl with tiny brain. But he's like, no, it's the fluorescent light. You fucking asshole.

Anyways, I do love him. I would marry him. He talks to her about the weather and he's like, why did you move to the like, well she says she hates the rain, any cold, wet thing. She hates. And then he like giggles about it afterward because he's like, I'm cold and wet.

Yes. And you're about, I'm cold and wet. Yes. And you're about to fall in love with me. Yeah. So they have really riveting conversations about such things as the weather and onions. Anyway, so one day Tyler, one of the friends in Bella's friend group, is cruising through the school parking lot at about 60 miles per hour and he loses control of his van and nearly careens into Bella. But suddenly Edward is there to save her even though he was just 50 feet away from her like one second ago. But Edward is there and he stops the

van with what seems like superhuman strength. So Bella is taken to the hospital where she meets Dr. Daddy Cullen. Edward is there too and Bella is like, what the hell happened? How did you get to me so fast? And then he proceeds to gaslight her more and says that he was already right next to her. You said you bonked your head real hard. You're confused. It really is like gaslighting 101 lines. Like you fell.

Yeah. You must have bonked your head. It's the lights. You're like, you've had a hundred years to get better at gaslighting than you are, sir. Yeah. Okay, so from this point onward now, Bella is like dreaming about Edward partly because he is fully stalking her and sneaking into her bedroom and watching her sleep.

He's also eavesdropping on her conversations. He's being generally cruel and abusive to her, saying things like, we shouldn't be friends, but also I want to be friends, but you should stay away from me because I'm not the hero. I'm the bad guy. And she's like, no, you're a good guy. Come to the beach with me and my friends. And he's like, I.D.K., probably not. He's like, I can't, I can't go to that beach. Whatever, man. And we're about to find out why,

because we cut to the beach called La Push. La Push. La Push, baby. Which is a real place. Which is a real place where the Quilliet people live. Edward does not show up, but Jacob and his friends do, and they're like, oh yeah, the Cullens don't come here. And Jacob proceeds to tell Bella that the Quileut people are descended from wolves, the Cullens are descended from an enemy clan, but they've established a treaty as long as the Cullens

stay off Quillute land. So Bella is like, what's that all about? And she starts investigating. She finds a book about Quillute mythology and goes with her friends to Port Angeles, ever heard of it? No. To buy this book while her friends Jess and Angela go prom dress shopping, because everyone is gearing up for prom, although Bella is not going to prom because she'll be out of town that weekend. Well, then also, I think she's not like other girls.

She's not like the other girls. She doesn't dance. She would, and if she went to prom, you know she would be wearing Chuck Taylor shoes. Yes, because she is not like, Oh God, I did have that. I mean, girls were wearing chucks like no one's business at that time. I was wearing chucks. I still do. Really? I just like I really appreciated when that fad passed because they're just not I think my arches are too high or something, they're just not comfortable to me.

I mean, they're not the most comfortable shoe. I bravely wear Crocs everywhere I go every single day. I also want to point out that we see on screen that Bella could have bought this book from Amazon, but instead she opts to go to a whole other city and buy it from a local independent bookstore. Yeah, that's Bella Swan Praxis. Right there buys from an independent bookseller.

Yes, who we see in a single shot. But she does support local businesses. Good for Bella. Indeed. But name a second thing about her. She read one book one time. What was the book? We don't know.

Yeah, she still ends up mostly Googling, which I thought was funny that she went so far out of her way to get the book. She still mostly Googles the answers, which is relatable. I've done that. I've been like, oh, I've made a big deal of getting the books and then been like, oh, well, I actually have run the clock and I have three days to write this paper. I made note of that though. She reads exactly one sentence from the book and then proceeds

to Google everything else. I felt seen. I was like, that's, that's what teenagers do. It's amazing. Okay. So she's hanging out in Port Angeles buying books locally. Meanwhile, there is a group of scary people and I wonder if they're vampires. They are James, Laurent and Victoria. They're on the loose and they attack a guy who we've met before. It's a friend of Bella's dad's. He's presumably murdered. of Bella's dads. He's presumably murdered. Then a different set of scary people start bothering Bella on her way back from the bookstore. But Edward comes to her rescue because he

had followed her to Port Angeles. Yeah, but no, but it's a good thing he did kill him, right? Right. Because he saved her from those scary people who were about to assault her. He rescues her from so many bizarre predicaments. He heard what those lowlifes were thinking. So then Edward takes Bella to dinner, where he admits that he had been stalking her and also tells her that he can read every person's thoughts in the room except for hers.

And if you're wondering if she has any kind of reaction to this, well, she barely does. We're being hard on Bella. I feel bad. Well, she thinks that something's wrong with her because you can't read her mind, which is like so sad. It's like, no, honey, there's nothing wrong with you. Other than maybe like that you're boring, but there's nothing wrong with you. That's the thing is like her boringness

is her power, question mark. I kept writing that down being like, it's her absolute blankness that which, which we'll get into too, because I think that like both of the lead actors of this movie were like pretty thoroughly dragged through the mud in the press for something that has way more to do with the source material than the performances where for years, I mean, I kind of remember this where people were like, Kristen Stewart can't act. You know, she's like a total blank slate. She's just like, and I'm just like, read the book. She's not given very much. Right. Yeah. And then a bunch of very homophobic coded criticism

of Edward and Robert Pattinson because he's too sparkly and vampires are famously straight. Like I don't even know where people are going with that because that's never been a thing. But like in any case, I was sort of like revisiting that period of like, Christian Stewart's a bad actor, which, you know, 15 years on, you're like, yeah, demonstrably untrue. She's not just a great actor. She's a queer icon. Yeah. I find it interesting that both she and Robert Pattinson have gone on to have pretty prolific careers as actors, and then Taylor Lautner.

I would say not so much. I am always buying the wrong stocks. I tell you what, I was all in for Taylor Lautner, and he did buy me a $3 beer once. Wow. I think I told that story on the first version. It was like right after I moved to LA, I went to this cheapo bar called the Cha Cha Lounge.

And for some reason, Taylor and his wife to be also named Taylor were there. And he was like, next round on me. But all the beers cost $3. So he couldn't have spent more than like $30. But it was nice of him. I appreciated it. Yeah. So I guess I got a $3 return on putting all my stock in Taylor Lautner $3 plus tip I hope. Yeah, I mean, could be worse. Yeah. Anyway, so Bella returns home and this is the scene where she looks through her book for one second and then looks everything else up online.

I love a good Googling montage. It's so Pat, but I find it comforting. And what she's looking up is information about vampires. And she realizes that Edward is probably a vampire based on his super speed and strength, his cold skin, his ability to read people's minds since that's famously a vampire quality. I love how they just wave aside the... I do appreciate... Stephanie Meyer just waves off the tropes about vampire she's disinterested in and add good stuff that she wants. You're like yeah

sure it's your book I guess. They can be out in the daylight it's just their skin is sparkly. They just have this body glitter kind of thing going on. Yeah exactly And they're also Professor Xavier from X-Men. I've never seen an X-Men. Wow. I'm not like other girls. I've never seen an X-Men. Oh, I was going to say, I made a special note. In a very late 2000s nod, the Papyrus font is indeed featured in Bella's Googling sequence, which it wouldn't have been in 2008 if she hadn't come across, you know, homespun HTML layout papyrus font website. So I appreciated that.

That was important visibility. Yes. For the papyrus font. Well, no, the papyrus font's one year away from being the avatar logo. So the papyrus font did perfectly fine for herself. True. Okay. So day at school Bella and Edward go into the nearby woods together and she's like, so you're a vampire right? And he's like, teehee, yes? And she's like, don't worry I'm not afraid of you even though you desperately want to kill me and drink my blood. You're a killing machine who has previously murdered people. Bekkah This is the skin of a killer Bella. Bekkah Oh, yes.

Bekkah I love that line so much. Bekkah So y'all, I didn't tell you, but I'm wearing a shirt. This is the skin of the killer. I will show you. It has like the meme of Robert Pattinson. Bekk. Incredible. And yeah, it's a T-shirt and I made it into a half shirt because I love me some half shirts. And this isn't the only Twilight half shirt that I own. I also own one that is New Moon based.

It's the scene where Jacob says, Bella, where the hell have you been, Loca? Yes. That is that half shirt. So, yeah, I do rock some Twilight apparel still, even though it's not a Team Edward shirt. Our producer, Sophie, is a big fan, or like was a huge Twihard back in the day, and they recently screened New Moon near her, and the whole audience in unison did the Bella where have you been look

together. There is something just so powerful about the memes that keep us together. This is the skin of a killer Bella that line read really holds up. It's so funny. She's like you're beautiful skin is like diamonds. Everything about me draws you in. Like, we'll talk about like how Robert Pattinson, I feel like almost in a defensive way, came out against the Twilight movies because he wanted to have a quote unquote serious career and starring in movies that are marketed at teen girls

is quote unquote, unserious. And so he would sort of be like, these movies suck, but I'm in them. And, but they, but I hate them. But he would do it in a funny enough way that it's hard for me to be mad at him. But yeah, imagine having to perform that monologue. It's really, really wild that he basically pulls it off. Yeah. So now Bella and Edward are irrevocably in love with each other.

He tells her some of his backstory, which I forgot to write down. He was kind of the flu. Yeah, he had Spanish influenza and Carlisle saved him and yeah, bit him and turned him into a vampire. Right. And something that really struck me on this and we can and should talk about this later, but that Carlisle, like Carlisle's code of honor is that he'll only turn people into vampires

when they are already about to die. But as ties into a lot of the like undertones of white supremacy and like Mormonism specifically in this franchise. He mysteriously only ever seems to have an interest in saving white vampires or eventual vampires specifically, including even though I think that this is a discussion for a future episode because it doesn't come up, I don't think in this movie, but Jasper's fighting on the wrong side of the civil war canonically.

Yeah, he's a Confederate soldier. Yeah. And there is really a day, I mean, we'll talk about it in, I don't know if it's the second or third movie where that like, there's like a full flashback sequence, I remember. And it is just not drawn attention to as something that's wrong. And I know Princess Weeks made a great video about how Confederate vampire soldiers is like this very scary trope that exists across vampire media. But yeah, Dr. Daddy only ever saves white people on the verge of death. Yeah. So we learned that as Edward's backstory, we also learn that the Cullens

have kind of sworn this oath to never hunt or attack or kill humans. They live off of the blood of animals, but there are other like vampire clans who do kill people, and that's what's going on with James and Victoria. And you can tell by their eye color, too, of the vampires, their eye color. You can tell if they are vegetarian vampires or if they hunt humans, because the vegetarian vampires have, like, golden eyes.

And then the human-hunting ones have red eyes. So, like, yeah, yes. Yes, exactly. So Edward tells Bella all of this, then he invites her to his house to have dinner with his vampire family. Rosalie has a little outburst about it. She breaks a salad. There's going to be tension between her and Bella throughout the series. Oh boy. Also Jasper is thirsty as fuck for Bella's blood, but he's exercising restraint. Then we get the spider monkey scene. Great. That line was added for the movie. Also amazing

that Robert Pattinson says it without laughing. So good. That's a skill. That's followed by this like montage kind of thing where they're just sort of like canoodling in the treetops, as if that's like so romantic. And I'm so afraid of heights that like, I'm like, who would find that romantic? Like, is this exciting for people? I don't know. I would find that terrifying. Yeah. What struck me about that scene was that presumably what's

happening in that scene is they're getting to know each other better. And they don't show us that where it's like it would actually be. I mean, and I know to some extent, and this is like 10 years ago, kind of styled this course around Twilight, but I think it would be nice to see them have more conversations to lock in what connects them as people. Why they like each other. Right. Like that's not too much to ask of a romance story. And it was like, I think we were watching that scene happening, but like, we were far away, we couldn't hear it. It's like, oh, I would have loved to know what Bella would talk about. Yeah, no.

I read this is so many questions about Twilight. If you Google them, lead to a Reddit post from five years ago. And this one is no exception. But later on, Stephanie Meyer would write or sort of rewrite Twilight from Edward's perspective called Midnight Sun. I almost was like, should I read it? And then I saw it was a 36 hour long audio book. And then I thought, maybe I,

there's only so many days of your life that you have. But I guess in that, she does get into some of the conversations she has that Bella has with Edward. And she at one point gives her list of favorite movies and books, which are baffling given Bella's personality. She says her favorite movie is Monty Python and the Holy Grail. Interesting. Which is coming from a character I don't think we ever see laugh. It's like so confusing. I was like, there's no way. Yeah. Anyways, I guess in the source material, in the book, we find out that she reads Jane

Austen books, which, you know, they're great books, but there couldn't be a more bland thing assigned to a teenage girl character than likes Jane Austen books. Oh, okay. So then there's a scene where Bella introduces Edward to Charlie Swan, her dad, and Charlie's like, oh, you better watch out young man, I've got a gun. And then we get the baseball scene, which is an amazing scene, mostly because it is seven people total playing baseball which is not enough people to play baseball. There's two referees but not enough players. Yeah they don't even let Bella play because she's too slow so they make her be the umpire. But anyway this is when the bad vampires

show up. They want to join in the fun. They want to play baseball. It's America's pastime. But they notice that a human is among them. They smell Bella's blood or something or human flesh. And James, in particular, wants to just eat Bella to death. And he is now going to hunt her down. So, Edward and Bella have to leave to lure James away so that they can basically eventually kill him. They have to cut him up into pieces and burn the pieces. Right. Which is always like, there's always these like suggestions of violence like that

in Twilight, but they never, like they ordinarily don't really happen, at least in the first movie. There's a lot of like, I'm going to do this, but then it happens off screen. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because Mormons. So then there's a scene where Bella and Edward are fleeing. Bella goes home and like has to hurt her dad's feelings to protect him. Then Bella and Edward split up to hopefully trick James into following Edward and Bella goes off with Alice and Jasper all the way to Phoenix where Bella receives a call from her mother who James has kidnapped and James tells her to meet him at her old ballet studio. Now Bella shows up,

learns that her mom was not actually kidnapped, it's just James there and he's like taunting her and throwing her around. She gets badly injured and she's bleeding and Edward shows up and he and James fight a bit. James bites Bella and his vampire venom is coursing through her veins. And it hurts, but it hurts so good? Question mark? Yeah. The gnarliest moment in this movie to me is always when ponytail vampire breaks Bella's leg. Like that, ooh,

that to me is like the actual scariest part of the movie. It's so, yeah. But then how would she go to prom without her quirky leg cast? So in a way it had to happen. Ponytail vampire had to do that so she could look quirky or at prom. Yes. Yes. And but before that happens, the rest of the Cullens show up to deal with James and they kill him off screen. Meanwhile, Edward goes to suck the venom out of Bella. But oh no, will he be able to show restraint and stop in time? Or will he suck all the blood out of her and kill her? And give him vampire blue balls? Yeah.

This movie is so edgy. Well, he manages not to bust a nut or whatever the metaphor is. And Bella lives. Yeah. She wakes up in the hospital. Her mom is there, Bella doesn't remember what happens. So, or she, I don't know if she's like pretending not to or what, but her mom relays the story that the Cullens probably told her, which is that Bella fell down two flights of stairs, broke her leg and crashed through a window. Okay, if I'm Bella's mom, I'm like, excuse me?

Like, how? through a window. Okay, if I'm Bella's mom, I'm like, excuse me? Like how? But I think that because that same excuse is given in the book, if I'm remembering correctly, it's a very long book. But I was like, is that why they mentioned that she's so prone to falling? Because people have to believe this ridiculous story

that she could just fall down to flight, like a Looney Tunes-style fall. Sure. Renee, I'm not her fan. If Renee has one fan, it's not me. It's not you. I'm like, your daughter's a junior. You couldn't wait two years to go on the road with your... Sorry.

Whatever. But, like, if I was a teen girl and my mom was like, actually, I'm going to have to fuck this guy, I'd be like, all right, well, I hate you. But now her mom is encouraging her to move to Jacksonville, Florida to like hang out with her mom and her new husband. And Bella's like, no, I want to stay in Forks.

But Edward is like, No, Bella, that's a good idea. Actually, you are safer away from me. And you should move. And she's like, No, I'm never leaving you. And you can never leave me. So don't say things like that. And that's love. And we cut to prom and Bella and Edward are there together. Jacob just kind of randomly pops out of the woods. He walks out of the woods. They did not do a good job of making it like, why can we see him get out of a car? Why is he up to watch? I know that it's probably like, I know that that's what they're implying, but it looks so silly.

It's goofy as hell. Yeah. It's so silly. I love it. And he like dresses up. He's like wearing a button down shirt and tie, like rolled up sleeves and stuff. As if he's about to go to prom, but he's not? He's like, no, my dad gave me $20.

And I'm like, okay. He's like, my dad paid me to tell you to break up with Edward and that we'll be watching you. And we're like, cool, cool, cool, tight, tight, tight. At very least in the book, Jacob, like they dance together and there's like a clearer friendship established and not what happens in the movie,

which is like Edward appearing out of nowhere and being like, get away from me. And then they give each other like broody boy eyes. Monster boy eyes. And then Jacob walks back into the woods. That's where he came from. I hope he got that $20. Yeah, I hope at very least because it's like that's a very humiliating task to dispatch your 16 year old son to do. Anyway, so then Bella and Edward are slow dancing and she's like, you should have let me become a vampire so that I can be like you. And he's like, no, I'm not going to let you be a monster.

And she's like, but this is what I want. And so he moves like he's about to bite her neck, but JK, he's just teasing slash edging her. And the movie ends with a shot of Victoria, the bad vampire, whose James is his girlfriend, leering at Bella and Edward from a distance because she wants revenge and that's partly going to be what some of the other movies are about, I think.

Maybe. I was really bummed. I forgot that the Volturi don't show up in this movie because they're so funny. They're the funniest part of all of the movies where they're, because it's just, this didn't fully connect for me until going through the Twilight rehash discourse

that's happened in the last five years, but it's just how Stephanie Meyer views Catholic people, which is like, gay and evil. No, Italian, gay and evil. It's just so weird. But you're going to have to wait for Dakota Fanning, Italian villain. Yes, indeed. So yeah, that's the movie. Let's take a quick break and we'll come back to discuss.

And we're back. Dianeli, I want to sort of pass the buck to you here. Where would you like to start with Discourse of Twilight? I don't know. I don't know where. What's what it feels like a good place to start as far as like things that you all wanted to cover as well. Yeah, I mean, I think we didn't mention this, Caitlin,

but we also during, actually during lockdown, I wanna say it was summer 2020, we did a fundraiser where we did a reading of the Twilight script with past guests from the show. Jess Merwin was a part of that conversation. And they and many Native writers have been intensely and rightfully critical of the way that Twilight presents Indigenous culture, which I think we reference in our first episode,

but certainly not in depth because we were also undereducated on the issue at the time. So I think that's a good starting point. And then also just again, for our listeners reference, we're not going to get into every facet of that in this particular episode because I believe that it's New Moon that really kind of doubles and triples down on these really dangerous tropes around indigenous people. And Jacob is not in this movie very much, but I think that it is at least to me, like the unequivocally valid criticism of this franchise.

Yes. Friend of the show, Ali Nadi has spoken about this in depth, and I've learned an awful lot from posts that she's made and videos that she's made. She made a great video essay on the topic. Definitely. So yeah, the glaring thing here, because this movie does go a little bit into some of the lore that's basically it foreshadows a lot of what happens in New Moon, but there's a scene where Jacob Black, again, played by a non-Indigenous actor, he is a member of the Quileute Nation, the character

is, again, not the actor and the Quileute nation really does Live in La Pushe. I think at the time that the movie came out there were only about 700 members of the nation So it's also a quite small nation. Yes so what we learned from this movie is And this is something that Jacob mentions, but that his people are descended from wolves, which is part of Quillute mythology. Like that's part of the creation story. But basically what happened is that Stephanie Meyer probably did one second of research, learned that and then basically conflated that with Quileute people are werewolves.

Right. To like serve the... which again, it's just, I mean, there's so many issues with how Stephanie Meyer dealt with writing a Quileute character in general, but the fact that she's also like equivocating a very real group of people with a completely made up group of people, you know, inventing a treaty that is presented very matter of factly as if most of the treaties that have been quote unquote made with indigenous tribes have not been completely disrespected or later reneged on. The movie has no interest in this. I also was reading that she didn't,

I mean, it reminds me of how we talked about Robert Eggers in the Vavitch, where there was that interview he did where they're like, how did you research the movie? And he's like, I went to the library one day. Like that, and that was all he admitted to doing. She does seem to be borrowing from the Robert Eggers School of Higher Education

in that she clearly Googles a couple of things, never consulted with the Quillenot Nation, it doesn't seem like visited, like did no due diligence in writing that character. And that also she still somehow got it wrong, where I'm pretty sure that, or at least I was seeing this then, because there's been a lot of art exhibits and pieces written about it, that the tribe is said to have been turned to people from wolves and not, like it's not a back and forth thing.

Correct. So she's just projecting, you know, whatever, making everything work in favor of the story. The thing that stood out to me and the Taylor Lautner thing is absolutely glaring. And there's also this very, I think it was more in the new moon press cycle so we can talk about it more in that episode. But there was a like round of discourse where Taylor Lautner did like a round of press where he was like, actually, I do have some indigenous

heritage. I just didn't know before. And on my mom's side, I have some indigenous heritage, which is like, don't do that. And he's a teenager at the time. I'm more inclined to blame the producers of Twilight that probably put pressure on him to do that, to put out a fire. It's all very ugly. The thing that stuck out to me the most though that I wasn't fully aware of, or I guess I hadn't been reminded of in some time, was in terms of how the Quileute tribe was able to benefit from the success of Twilight. There's a lot written about this. The most in-depth piece

I was able to find was in HighCountryNews.com, which is a local paper. This was from 2012, so towards the end of the Twilight movies, in which the Quileute tribe was holding a public powwow and was inviting people to become better acquainted with their culture. And I think we might have talked about this years ago, but what the piece illustrates essentially is the fact that A, because the Twilight production was not required to give the Quileot tribe any sort of public acknowledgement or financial compensation, they opted not to. And that this tribe, which again consists of around 700 people, had to in response to the success from

Twilight and have all of a sudden, all of this tourism, which we should just link the piece because it is very interesting. On one hand, they're like, you know, having tourism money come in is a net positive, but on the other hand, they're coming in because of misinformation. And so they had to develop, you know, for a small group of people who have been historically persecuted, they had to develop a PR job within the nation to sort of not overtly condemn Twilight, but also work to correct the misinformation that Twilight had created. And it just created this entire like net of issues. And something that isn't mentioned in this 2012 piece,

but feels worth mentioning is the fact of like, why do indigenous groups have to rely on tourism money from, you know, majority non indigenous people, because of the same capitalist system that is disenfranchising them in the first place, and it's causal of this genocide. And the fact that that is even something that tribes need to interface with is like the result of something far uglier. So I just have one quick passage. I'm sorry, I know I'm going long. It's just-

No, I love it. This piece is, I want to shout out the writer, not an indigenous writer, but who attended this powwow and spent a lot of time and spoke with the PR advocates, all this stuff, from writer Brynn Nelson in July, 2012 writes, the Quileute has struggled for centuries to retain their land and culture amid outside threats.

In 1889, the same year, a treaty squeezed the tribe onto a fraction of its ancestral lands. A settler who had fraudulently claimed the remaining plots burned all 26 houses to the ground. By 1920, the last of the peninsula's wolves had been poisoned, shot, or trapped, severing another vital link to the ground. By 1920, the last of the peninsula's wolves had been poisoned, shot or trapped, severing another vital link to the past." They also mentioned how there are many places in the surrounding areas, but not on their reservation or land that

profit off of the twilight, you know, what was the word, being adjacent, adjacent, there it is. In 2010, a volunteer advisor, Angela Riley, director of the American Indian Studies Center at UCLA, wrote an editorial in the New York Times sucking the Quilliot dry, which blasted the ongoing exploitation. In perhaps the worst instance, an MSN.com film crew working on a virtual Twilight tour filmed the reservation cemetery without permission, pairing grainy images of the grave sites of respected elders with a creepy soundtrack. Deeply offended, the tribe secured a quick publish apology and removal of the footage,

but the incident prompted a new level of vigilance. Now the Quileute Nation has an etiquette guide and photography policy, both prominently displayed on its website. So it's just this examination of how this small tribe has had to respond, deal with, and try to essentially make the best of this situation that's been thrust onto them by this franchise. And I don't know. Yeah, I'm curious what you both feel about that. I mean, it's obviously very gross and it takes Stephanie Meyer kind of, I think, a very nasty amount of time to even acknowledge this.

I had come across a piece called Truth vs. Twilight, which was a collaboration between the Burke Museum of Natural History and Culture and the Quileute tribe and it goes through a bunch of different talking points many of which revolve around the representation of the Quileute nation and one of the big points made was that the tribe received no compensation despite the movie making over four hundred million million at the box office, made back its budget by over tenfold, made so much money, obviously, we know what a cultural phenomenon this saga is, and the Quillute Nation saw no direct compensation

from that. Again, there was no consultation that Stephanie Meyer did. And I meant to look into this further, but I would doubt that the film production did much in the way of consultation. So from what I can tell, no. So there's actually, it's mentioned in this piece. Okay, from the same from the same High Country News piece. When the Twilight craze first erupted, the Quilliot lacked a public relations contact and events coordinator.

Ann Penn-Charles, a community leader who helps run the weekly Drum and Healing Circle, says producers of the first movie randomly called villagers in hopes of securing permission to film a scene on First Beach. It was ultimately shot on the Oregon coast instead. The producers eventually visited so eventually well into production the producers eventually visited LaPush to get a better sense of the community. Tribal secretary Naomi Jacobson says their idea of Quileute kids were upended when they visited her cousin's home. They didn't expect them to be modernized teenagers with iPods and Wii, she says. So this was just like, as with so many depictions of indigenous culture well into now, and thankfully there has been more representation of, but nowhere near what's satisfactory as we've talked about in many episodes, but

just like this is a overwhelmingly white crew coming in based on I'm assuming the false version of history they learned and never reexamined in American schools. Right. Yeah, there was no compensation given that I was able to find. And it seems like the first literal person to say, hey, could we come to La Push and speak with you was well into the production of the movie, which would have been at least three years after the book came out. And it's like the just the age old story of like appropriation

and benefiting from, you know, other people's culture. It saddens me. and benefiting from other people's culture, it saddens me, it outrages me that the Quileate people were not consulted, they were not compensated. And that happens so often, especially as a person of color, we often are not compensated for our work, for our labor. And this could have been an opportunity

for the production crew to be educated on the Quileot tribe, and they could have been compensated for their time and for their information. But it is sad that the research was well into production. And Stephanie Meyer didn't do a lot of that work on her own, which is, again, like, I'm soged by that. And like, I, I think that when I was younger, I didn't, I didn't know this information, you know, and I just thought about like, oh, the romance, the story of, you know, Edward and, and Bella falling in love. And there's so much, I mean, this is a problematic fave, sadly, but there's so much to really dive into.

And again, like so many issues that could be discussed about this movie and the books that made this movie happen. Absolutely. I mean, and this is like an issue we'll return to as we cover more Twilight movies because it's like, Twilight is a problematic fave for millions of people. And again, like we're, our show has never been about like, if, with very few exceptions, there's a few movies where it's like, if you like this movie, you might be a horrible person. But, but Twilight is not one of them, I don't think. I think that

there is so much important valid criticism that was not being had at the time that is important to have now. And I'm glad, I mean, that's why it's like Ali Nadi's work is so wonderful. And yeah, we'll revisit that in our new moon episode. But just to establish, like, I know for sure, I was not educated to the point where I could have told you when this movie came out, if the Quileute tribe was a tribe that was based on real people or not, because we're so undereducated about indigenous issues

and also indigenous people aren't a monolith as this movie. I think there's a lot of stuff in New Moon that really turns indigenous Americans into a monolith. So we'll go back to that. But did anyone else have anything on that issue before we forge ahead to the 500 other things to talk about? Let's forge ahead, I suppose. So I think a big talking point on our first episode was the discussion around the predatory

romance between Edward and Bella being framed as this grand, romantic, beautiful love story and the effect that that had on its audience. Now, watching this movie eight years later and like having done this podcast for eight years and like talking about so many movies that do just that as far as framing an abusive relationship or a predatory romance as being romantic. Watching this again for the first time in a long time, it felt so heavy-handed to me that it almost felt like I was watching satire or some kind of farcical thing. Because I was like, oh my gosh.

Because I think that we have come long enough of a way culturally from the initial release of these books and these movies that I think, or at least I hope, most people watch this relationship now and realize just how predatory it is. And they're like, oh, oh no. Yeah. Because I feel like on our first watch, I was kind of still in the mindset of like, well, I don't know, I've always been conditioned that if a man stalks me and love bombs me and... To be fair, I don't think that we were like,

it's actually cool that he's, we weren't that brain dead in 2017. No, but we were coming off of being conditioned by other media that, at least for me, I was like kind of still in the process of like undoing, unlearning a lot of that. And now I'm like, oh my gosh, like, wow, wow, this seems, this is so outlandish that it feels satirical to me almost. But yeah, I mean, obviously there's all the things of Edward gaslighting her incessantly, stalking her, showing up in her bedroom unannounced, watching her sleep,

love bombing her, blaming her for his reaction, like kind of like any angry outburst he has. He's like, well, you made me so angry. The implication that he's intrigued by her because she's the only person whose thoughts he can't hear, but he's still desperate to know what she's thinking. And just like all these weird, bizarro, predatory, scary, abusive relationship dynamics. Also that he's like a hundred years old and she's 17, you know, the list goes on. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's honestly the main initial criticism that we had of this movie that doesn't hold up for me is the age gap. Because while I do agree that a hundred year olds shouldn't date 17 year olds. That's not something that happens and I don't

think it's like something that we're at risk to do. I guess there were a few things that as I was like revisiting some of the criticisms that I'd preview. I mean the fact like it's to me impossible to and this is not a brave stance. It's impossible to look at this relationship and be like seems healthy. healthy. It's definitely not. There's absolutely stocking the gaslighting like you're saying, Caitlin, is like so over the top that it feels like literally a handout of like, this is what a gaslighter might say of like, you don't know what you're talking about. You must have bonked your head.

You know, just really, really unsophisticated stuff and the thing is like I still feel that way I know that there's been a lot of history that looks at the original backlash I guess I'm curious yeah where we all stand on that because I there are still a lot of the initial criticisms that I felt about this movie I still feel like I you know I'm not gonna be like after eight, I think that they actually have a great relationship. And also the thing that is never gonna sit quite right with me, even with the reflection on some of,

I think, the more extreme criticisms of Twilight at the time is that this is media that's marketed at middle schoolers and high schoolers. So it's marketed at impressionable people. And with all due respect to the youth, I saw Juno and my takeaway was, I have to get pregnant right now because I like Juno and Juno was pregnant.

And so if there's even a risk that someone is like that, and this is something that you're very emotionally invested in, I think that that is very up for debate despite what the intent of the author might have been. I think that something I've moved on is movies that are very clearly marketed and intended for adults having unhealthy relationship dynamics, where it's like, okay, if a movie is fully intended for adults and mainly being consumed by adults and you see an unhealthy relationship dynamic and you say, I want that, to some extent that's on you, because you're a grownup and not every movie can model perfect relationship

dynamics. But when you're modeling them to an audience that are probably entering their first relationships, it is, I think, still, you know, I stand by. I think it is a valid discussion to have. Yeah, absolutely. I think like, definitely like when I first read the books, and then also when I first watched the movie, I was completely convinced that this was a beautiful love story. And I was convinced then too that everything that he was doing was because he loved her

and I didn't find it to be controlling or gaslighty. But really, you know, what I mentioned before at the beginning is that I grew up in a very sheltered environment. I grew up in a religious cult, very Pentecostal adjacent. So the misogyny was real thick. And for me, this was not so far off from what I had known and already experienced. So it was easy for me to make that leap

from this very religious upbringing to then, you know, Edward being very controlling and gaslighting and stalking her. It just was an easy transition for me. I didn't really question it, which is, when I look back at it, very scary to think about. And, you know, like it was, you know, not only was I a part of a religious system, I also lived in an abusive household. So these were, you know, things that I was seeing often, and it was just a mirror of my own experience, and that was really all that I knew. But it's sad that this is what was being sold to, you know, young girls and being told that this is what true love looks like. You know, if he loves you, he'll follow you

and make sure that you're protected. Oh, nay, nay. He'll cut you off from any potential friendship that you could possibly have with anyone of any gender, which is like so egregious. Right, exactly. And there's just this, you know, codependence that they have. I mean, thinking about like the end of the movie, the thought of moving to Jacksonville, just completely like Bella's like freaking out. She's like, absolutely, like you could never, never leave me. And I think about the lion in the movie, you know,

so the lion fell in love with the lamb. And it's like, so, so predatory in nature. You know, he is a lion and she is this, this lamb. And I'm thinking about how, I don't know if you all knew, but there were a lot of hot Topic came up with like a line of like jewelry around the movie. Oh, I bet they did. You'll notice some of the jewelry like in the scene

in the science class when Edward like moves the, kind of the slides over to Bella. He's wearing this like leather bracelet with the cullen like crest on it. So Hot Topic was selling all of this jewelry to young kids. So not only was there jewelry with the crest, there was also a pair of rings that had lion and lamb on them. And who owned them?

I did. My first boyfriend gave them to me. And like most like first relationships, it was not a healthy relationship at all. There was so much, you know, codependence and controlling behavior from from both of us. But we were, again, a part of a system that just ingrained that in us. So it was that much more, I guess, dangerous for that message to be continually drilled into my brain. So when I think about my relationship to the movie now, it's very strange and it's layered and it's convoluted.

And I have to think about, again, my experiences that I had before watching the movie, and then how I was as a young adult watching this movie thinking that this was the love that I was chasing. And then now after as an adult, fully understanding that that type of love is so damaging. And I myself have been in, you know, abusive relationships later on in my adulthood, where there was stalking and, like, restraining orders.

And it was just a really, really difficult time for me. And this movie, I do feel like what you said, Kaitlyn, you have to watch it with the eye of that this is satire. Otherwise like the indoctrination is again a very, very damaging thing. Right. But that's the thing, like it only feels like satire now in like 2025, because when it came out in 2008, it was coming out in the context of this culture

that still very much normalized this type of relationship dynamic, which is very abusive and predatory. As being actually romantic, it was coming out in a culture that rewarded men's predatory behavior like that. So it doesn't fly now. It feels so ridiculous, at least to me now. But in the context of it coming out, it was different enough that it did feel very like, oh my gosh, well, this is love. I have to model my relationship after this. And I hope it says something positive that this does read a satire now.

I really hope it does because I think about, even though Twilight wasn't a complete like hallmark of my youth, I think of like how many abusive dynamics that you end up with in your life. And you're like, what was modeled to me that made this okay? And then you can trace that up as far as you like of like, if this is something I saw modeled in someone in my life, what was modeled to them?

Was it media? Was it people? What was it? Like, and you just, and it's usually some really bizarro mix of everything, like media that's withheld from you, with media that's given to you, at dynamics you see, dynamics you see projected. Like, it's also very, like extremely complicated.

And this is like not the relationship as a 12 year old to aspire to. Like that is so clear. And I think that that is like a lot of who was reading this book book is people who had not you know I generally feel like media about 17 year old girls is mainly being consumed by 12 year old girls yeah yeah because they're looking for a model of who do I want to become right and what I I don't know it's so tricky because I think like, Stephanie Meyer is a piece of shit for so many reasons,

but I always sort of, I guess, struggle with all of these cultural issues that have been around for literally hundreds of years, falling onto the back of one work. Like, which I do think there is a tendency to do that I know I've definitely been guilty of is like, there is this very broad clickable take of like, Twilight is making a generation of young women want to enter abusive relationships, where it is a facet of a much larger problem,

which I feel like ties into Stephanie Myers background, which is as a devout Mormon. And I didn't know anything about Mormon culture in 2017 when we recorded this episode. And I wish I could go back, but I can't. And I do know a lot more about Mormonism now and about how a lot of Mormon values are sort of telegraphed in this work and how Stephanie Meyer, you know, I think like a lot of authors who are women, we literally just talked about it last week with Judy Blume, but she was a stay at home mom when she wrote

this book, was not anticipated to be successful, It was wildly successful. But you can see a lot of sort of themes of her life come out in this book in a way that is presented as romance because that's how Stephanie Meyer has been conditioned to understand romance. So the way Stephanie Meyer talks about indigenous people is a completely different issue that I think there's absolutely no defense of her on. Definitely. In the romance department, I do think that there is a like multi-generational thing

going on. Right. I don't think Stephanie Meyer is sitting in her, in like Dexter's lab, petting a cat, being like, I'm gonna write the most toxic story ever. I do think that this, like she would repeatedly say, this is a story that came to me in a dream and that to some extent this is an expression of a fantasy that she has based on her

lived experience as I mean she went to Brigham Young University like she was full Mormon and you can see I think in the like ed edging relationship between Bella and Edward, through which a lot of the violent and controlling things we're talking about comes through, are pulled from this. I mean, I knew very little about Stephanie Meyer's biography, but basically she met her future husband as a child and they had this like long standing crush on each other, but they did not spend any time alone until they were 20. So it's a very like chastity until marriage kind of culture. You can see that in Bella and Edward very clearly.

Absolutely. Down to the point where if he quote unquote busts, Bella will die. That's what happens when you have sex. You die. Right. Like because they're not married. But then when she's married, she becomes a vampire and then she doesn't die if he busts. Right.

But you still won't see him bust, but it's implied, you know, like it is bizarre. I mean, and there's a lot of the Contra Points video essay that came out on this topic sort of gets into the history of romance novels and how there has been, you know, I think that's just like really, really complicated. It's so tricky because it's like, I look at a lot of this and I'm like, I still feel basically the same way I did in 2017. I think this is a toxic relationship that is mainly being modeled at pre-teens. And I don't like that.

And the one thing I do like is that this sort of wave of pop culture gave way to like dystopian teen fiction, which tended to have women characters in more politically aware, active roles and not Bella Swan, who's like a human screen saver, no offense. But then also the whole idea that there was this like undeniable appeal to this story to a lot of very sweet, wonderful, normal people, people on this call included. And people of multiple ages, because I mean, your, your mom

Yeah. Read these books as a full adult. There were mom specific Twilight forums because moms didn't want their kids knowing how they felt about Edward Cohen. Like, and this is like the history of romance novels too, is like, there's always been an implied shame in enjoying them. And the ContraPoints video essay, God Lover, it's so long, but I rewatched a portion of it to get ready for this.

And the thing that stuck out to me that kind of like shifted the way I viewed this a little bit is the sort of like push and pull that happens between. And this is like a pretty heteronormative structure, but like of feminine fantasy versus what men tend to take away from feminine fantasies. She talks a lot about the idea of surrender as a theme in romance fiction and, you know, that is sort of predicated on this idea of there is this expectation of women

to take care of everybody. And the part of the idea behind Surrender is, you know, while it does read as someone telling you what to do, it can be interpreted, and a lot of the appeal of it, based on research, is the idea of not what to do, it can be interpreted. And a lot of the appeal of it based on research is the idea of not having to do things for everybody. And that explains a lot of the moms who are into this, right? It's like someone who spends a lot of their time,

likely because of how domestic work tends to be split up, taking care of everyone else, having someone be like, this is what we're doing and your pleasure is the priority. And so while the romantic dynamics, if you're a 12 year old and you have no understanding of how a relationship should quote unquote be, can be very dangerous. I do understand the appeal of it in a different context. And like, so that's part of why it's so hard to talk about. Right. So I watched the whole ContraPoints video bravely all three hours, basically the same length as Titanic. And it's hard to summarize because of its length and how in-depth it is.

But basically, it looks at Twilight through the lens of sexual desire and fantasy by way of prescribed gender roles, social conditioning, power dynamics, human psychology, and how nuanced and complicated all of those things are, where yes, she acknowledges the relationship dynamics portrayed in Twilight can easily be considered problematic and predatory. But when you take all of these different things into consideration, and you especially consider patriarchy and something that she calls default heterosexual sadomasochism. I'm not sure if that's a term that she coins or if that's an existing thing, but it's basically this division of sexuality and sexual dynamics into these binary roles, such as masculine and feminine,

top and bottom, dominant and submissive, lover and beloved, predator and prey, all these things, but lumping several of them together in a way that is very, very prescriptive of cishet gender roles, which is extremely reductive and problematic and ignores the fact that like, people can be both masculine and feminine. People can be a switch. They're not just submissive or dominant. You know, you can be both, like all these things, like all the facets that one person

can be or that a relationship can be where it's not just like this person assumes this role and this person assumes this opposing role and that's how it has to be. Things are far more fluid than that and Counterpoints basically comes to the conclusion that maybe actually Twilight is kind of a rejection of this, which I don't know if I fully agree with. of this, which like, I don't know if I fully agree with, but, um, and then also for me, like, it is all about the audience consuming this. Yeah. Right. That's the main thing that was like hard for me.

Right. If you are a full adult who has come to, probably not peak emotional intelligence, because, you know, we're all on a journey constantly. No one's there, yeah. It depends a lot on the age and maturity level of the person consuming this. And because this saga, the series is directed primarily toward children slash tweens slash young teens, again, it's like, yes, the source material is a product of Stephanie Meyers and so many people's conditioning as far as what a relationship is supposed to look like.

But then this movie reinforces that in a way that's incredibly problematic where we hopefully and definitely now are seeing a lot more media that rejects a lot of the very abusive relationship dynamics we see in Twilight and posits healthier versions of young people and people of all ages in relationships but we just weren't there in them you know mid 2000s and in the late 2000s and stuff when these movies and books were coming out or really for like ten years after that. Like, yeah. And maybe arguably now, like we're living in a time of regression, unfortunately. Yeah. I mean,

the whole trad wife thing that's coming back around. Oh, trad wives don't even get me started on trad. Oh God. I agree with you, Caitlin. I think that like, I really enjoyed the ContraPoint's take on it. And I learned, I learned a lot about the way that romance has been, again, that I think that like, does pull in a valid point that I wanna get into is like the idea that media that is targeted at any,

like at any group that isn't cis men and cis white men specifically will be presented as a danger to society and that it really requires a close look at the source material to determine is that actually so. But I think that what I learned more from her piece on it was understanding why moms liked it and that actually wasn't too weird. But I didn't feel satisfied as to like, well, but what if you're, you know, 12 and you are years away from having any sort of romantic connection with someone and this is like consuming your life which was true for hundreds of thousands of young people. I did appreciate seeing it but I think it did sort of not quite get to like, but who

was this targeted at? Yeah, that brought me to sort of something that I wanted to touch on. Callback that capacious journal essay I was talking about. Yay. About not just being ashamed of liking the Twilight series and being like, no, I would never like a popular thing that everyone likes. And specifically where there was a resurgence during the early days of lockdown with queer communities in re-embracing this. I saw this firsthand with, wait, actually I'm going to read my friend's letterbox review

of Twilight, please. To illustrate this point, I feel like Cam will be okay with it. Okay. This is my friend Cameron's review from January 19th, 2025. Okay. Yeah. And Cam's about my age and they're, I mean, they're the best. I can't believe I've never rated this. Obviously this is one of my favorite films in the entire world. I cannot truly explain what this film did to me as a 17 year old virgin high school senior who had never kissed anyone and was depressed out of their gourd because they were unknowingly trans and gay and also had an undiagnosed mood disorder. The books and this film were integral to my survival and I owe Stephanie Meyers untalented sicko ass mind a whole lot.

I think that this encapsulates a lot of people's experience with Twilight, honestly. Yes. Oh my goodness. Thank you. Cam? Is their name Cam? Yeah, Cameron. Yeah.

Cameron, I feel this absolutely like completely. I am grateful for like Stephanie Meyer's sicko mind because because it is like this weird nostalgic comfort watch that I continue to return to again and again and again. And I think, Caitlin, you said that you've watched the movie like 15 times or something like that. And I think like 15 times, that's how much I maybe watched the movie in a matter of like two months.

This movie is always on my TV. It's like, Oh, I'm folding laundry. Let me put on Twilight. Oh, I'm having a really bad day. Twilight. Oh, it just got broken up with new moon because Oh, right. This bitch likes to lean into the heartbreak. Do you know what I'm saying? There's a possibility. Yes, yes. I've even wrote in the Twilight poem or two. And a friend of mine, we really want to edit an anthology on poems based off of Twilight.

And I think for me, one of the reasons why I adore Twilight with all of its problems is because it's so ridiculous. At least, again, now, it's like this expected ridiculousness that feels very, very comfortable to me. It's so much of a go-to to me that I can't really imagine my life without it, which sounds like really wild,

but it's like, to me, it's like just as important to my survival as my well-brew trend. Like I need my Twilight to kind of be a like healing bomb to the shit of the world and it's like a satirical toxicity that I can somehow kind of digest as opposed to the toxicity that is actually happening outside of my door that I really want to run away from. So I'm so grateful that your friend Cameron

wrote that review. It feels, I feel so seen by that. That's gorgeous. They were brave enough to say, I mean, I think that that is like a very common experience more recently is that like, this is also just becoming an adult where you don't have to give a fuck what others think quite as much. Yeah, a beautiful space to be in.

That sweet release that we've all experienced. Mid 30s. It's great. Yeah. But there was, and again, I think this was about 10 years ago, what the conversation stopped at was that things that are marketed to, and this is a broad umbrella term, but at the time, was that things that are marketed to teen girls are universally made out to be a societal ill and embarrassing

and don't admit that you like it. And if you admit that you like it, you're cringe. Which I do think is true. And that is, I think still to this day, true. But that was sort of where the criticism stopped and where I appreciate where it's gone. And I feel like where I hope it continues going is there's clearly an appeal to stories like this to, and again,

teen girls I'm using very, very generally here, but there's still a very broad appeal to it. And so it's like then the responsibility of their parents and mentors to talk to them about why. Because again, it's like, it's very easy to be like, Twilight is the problem, or I think like, you know, whichever bout of media is the problem, then actually interrogating, well, where did this come from? Because Stephanie Meyer is a deeply problematic person, but she had no idea that this was going to sell millions and millions of copies. I think the more important question is, why does this sell millions and millions of copies. I think the more important question is why does this sell millions and millions of copies? Why is it so appealing to us?

And how can you talk to the intended audience for this without being an old loser? I don't have the answers to these questions, but I feel like they're worth asking instead of being like, Twilight is bad for youth. Maybe, but they like it. So we should figure it out, you know? And we liked it. Yeah.

So anyways, we're getting into the queer fan base, which we've talked about on this show many times. A lot of aggressively heteronormative stories have been embraced by queer audiences. And I wanted to get into, I don't think we talked about this with Twilight last time. And I don't think it was really talked about because there was still Twilight enjoying stigma at that time. So this is from that capacious journal essay, still not as gay as Twilight, which I guess was a meme. I did not remember that. Yeah, I didn't see that. I don't think ever. But I guess it was a very online meme from the early 2010s, you know, and it would often

be queer users would post a photo from like, blue is the warmest color, and then be like still not as gay as Twilight. And that is that's the meme, basically. Postmodern affect nostalgia and queer Twilight Renaissance during the COVID-19 pandemic. And a lot of this was just sort of analyzing to some extent just the broader shame, no matter what your identity was around enjoying Twilight at this time, which we've talked about, but also their queer fandom. So just to share from that, quote, a focal pillar of this comeback is queer. Many queer fans within the Twilight Renaissance are quote unquote gay-ifying Twilight. In the early 2020s, Twilight is gay, but this

time in a good way. One factor that may have kindled the onset of the Twilight Renaissance is when Kristen Stewart, the actor who played Bella in the Twilight film adaptations, publicly came out as bisexual in 2017. The Twilight Renaissance could also be sustained by former fans resisting years of anti-Twilight shame with the realization that the mass anti-Twilight rhetoric was merely misplaced misogyny that essentially vilified the interests

and desires of young women. Another variable that might explain the fandom's heightened activity during the pandemic is Stephanie Meyer's release of the fifth installment to the novels, which gets into basically Twilight from Edward's perspective. But it also looks into a lot of the queer fanfic

that existed around Twilight, which I do remember was quite prolific. You know, Edward and Jacob, and you can just kind of let your brain do the math from there. Why, what happened? Just kidding. Caitlin, you're not ready and you can just kind of let your brain do the math from there. Why, what would happen? Just kidding. Caitlin, you're not ready. I can't tell you. I'm not old enough to know I'm not ready.

Yeah, I'll tell you in a couple years. Yeah, tell me when I'm older. But yeah, I mean, I think that this is a story we're kind of familiar with. And the fact that Edward Cullen, as portrayed in the books and movies of again this very I think Confusing like no vampires are straight scary guys. I'm like, have you seen interview with a vampire? Like what do you mean? Yeah, what do you mean? Have you seen any vampire? Have you seen Dracula? Have you seen most of them? any vampire? Have you seen Dracula?

Have you seen most of them? Like Edward is actually one of the straighter vampires, right? But it was literally just because, you know, if you're like a socially conditioned teenage boy you're like, vampires don't sparkle. That's not scary. You know, and that was literally it. And so the way the gaislers were thrown around in the 2000s, you can imagine how the character Edward Cullen

and eventually the actor Robert Pattinson was spoken about, which we can talk about in future installments, because I know we're going long. But I do think it's interesting to revisit those press junkets where Robert Pattinson's like, actually, this movie's fucked up. In a way that I'm sure he did feel to some extent, but it also does feel like on the defensive of having a future career, because you don't want to be the guy that's like, oh, I totally understand the appeal of this.

And I really I mean, or not even that, but even just like I respect the fans of this franchise, which doesn't feel like too much to ask. But I think it's like, if he's thinking about wanting to go on to star in a Christopher Nolan movie, you probably don't want to be like, the appeal of Twilight makes sense to me. Would he be Mickey 17? If you know, 15 years ago, he was like, Mickey 17 was mid.

But yeah, no, I mean, he maybe not I don't know and I and and that's the last oh sorry there's too much one of the last things I wanted to touch on was that as we know Kristen Stewart Robert Pattinson go on to be huge movie stars yes they're Mickey 17 they're Princess Diana etc. their. Their love lies bleeding. Their love lies bleeding. I mean, we love that movie. I don't know how many people saw it, but it's great. And we're going to talk about it soon. But this movie, for all of its faults, was written and directed by women.

And the director, as we've said, is Catherine Hardwick, who broke through with Thirteen, and this is sort of her big blockbuster movie. And she does not go on to direct any of the other Twilight movies. I was not sure why this reason was. I guess it was because this is, I'm pulling from a Vanity Fair article from 2018, but that she chose not to because of just being burned out. And if she wanted to direct New Moon, she would have had to basically never stop working for like five years or something absurd. And so she opted not to thinking, I think logically,

that well, if the first Twilight movie does well, I will not have trouble finding work. And you can imagine how the story goes from here, because we've heard it about one trillion women directors. She actually had quite a difficult time finding follow-up work, even though Twilight made almost half a billion dollars. Every other installment was directed by men. And Catherine Hardwick reflected on this later. I guess, interestingly, the screenwriter that Catherine Hardwick advocated for, Melissa Rosenberg, who also wrote Step Up, another classic,

and wrote on Dexter and the OC. So she's a 2000s girly. She went on to write all of the Twilight movies where Catherine Hardwick never came back to the franchise and had a lot of trouble finding comparable directing gigs to this day. Which, for all of the valid criticisms of Twilight, I think is kind of ridiculous.

Where you think about how many male directors we've talked about that have a movie that breaks even and they never want for work for their entire lives. Here's someone who has, and she also, you can argue, quote unquote, turned around the script because there was the original version of the script that was going to be filmed changed so much about the source material that in some ways I'm like this could have been cool but it is a different story. Bella Swan was a long distance runner cursed and used shotguns against vampires who killed her father. Whoa. And then she rode jet skis being chased by the FBI and And you're like, well, that's not Twilight.

That's not even the, yeah. But I would see that movie, but that's not Twilight. Oh yeah. And so. Wait, that was Catherine Hardwick's script? Like that was her kind of interpreter? No, no, no, no. That was some random guy who was hired to adapt Twilight

being told, we don't want only girls to see this movie. So you need to take this source material and make it appealing to men, basically. Wow. So guns and jet skis. Jet skis from the FBI. Yeah. And I was really struggling with that,

because I was like, that sounds like a fun movie. But yeah, when Catherine Hardwick came on, she was just like, and she read the script, and she was like, I don't love this. And then Hardwick came on, she's just like, and she read the script and she's like, I don't love this. And then she read the book and she was like, I don't understand how this is the same story. And then she advocated for a woman to write the story and write it more faithfully. And for better and for worse, I think Stephanie Meyer had a lot of input in the movie during its production. I mean, she's in cameos. Yeah, I was about to say.

The diner scene. Here's your breakfast, Steffi. Yeah. Is she also in the wedding scene later on in the later movies? Yes, she's in the wedding scene in Breaking Dawn, part one. She's M. Night Shyamalan-ing all over. She's Alfred Hitchcock-ing.

It is really funny because I knew it once I was an adult, but the first time I saw the movie, I definitely didn't know who Steffi was. Here's your breakfast, Steffi. But it's so obvious once you know. I enjoyed it. Anyways, yeah, Catherine Hardwick, I think is maybe slightly a better director than this movie deserved. And I don't appreciate that having directed it seems to have derailed her career to some extent. Twilight didn't deserve her, but they got her. And I think that that's why the first movie is a lot of people's favorites because she's she's pulling from the indie playbook. She's playing radio head during the damn credits.

The soundtrack is like something else. It really is amazing. So good. You know, as a former cult kid, like I wasn't allowed to listen to secular music. And then when you know, I started to leave that system, I was watching Twilight and the Twilight movie was like the first time I'd ever listened to Paramore before. Oh my God. That was my introduction to Paramore and Muse. It was just like this, again, like Rum Springer,

this like revelation, this epiphany of all this amazing music that I'd never heard before. And I felt so like rebellious. And yeah, the soundtrack is amazing. Robert Pattinson is also on the soundtrack. He sings two songs as well. Wait, what? I did not know this. I don't think I remember that.

You did not know this? Okay. No. Yes, Robert Pattinson sings that. You did not know this? Okay. No. No I didn't. Yes, Robert Pattinson sings. He's a musician. What? Yes. I knew he was a musician.

I didn't know he sang in this. Oh my gosh. So there are two of his songs. The first one is the restaurant scene with the mushroom ravioli. His song is playing in the background. Oh my gosh. And then the song that is playing in the scene in the ballet studio when Edward is sucking the venom out of Bella's wrist. That's also Robert Pattinson's song playing.

Whoa. That's so punk rock, sucking blood to your own music. Yeah. So I'm seeing, yeah, Never Think by Robert Pattinson. Never Think. Whoa. Good for him. Good for him. This also got so many teenage girls into Claude Debussy, which does crack me up. Like the girls were playing Debussy in the car this summer. Claire de Lune, let's go. It was... Yes. Paramore, Linkin Park, Claude Debussy, yes. Oh right, because there's that scene. I feel like that's the only vaguely specific thing that ever gets mentioned in the movie where she goes to Edward's bedroom.

She's like, you have so much music. And then we don't know what any of it is, except for she hits play and it's that and then she's like, Oh, wow. Yeah. That's the good shit. Claire DeLune is great. Yeah. Just to revisit the Twilight One soundtrack we also have and I think it I know that like St Vincent and eventually ends up there in future installments but we've got Muse, Paramore, Linkin Park, Iron and Wine, and Robert Pattinson. Those are the artists that I recognize. Iron and Wine, Flightless Bird, like, wow, that is a song like no other. Yeah. And that

song is actually then there's like a slower version of it that's then played in the wedding scene in Breaking Dawn part one. Why do I feel emotional hearing that? That's the paradox of Twilight you're like I know that this is bad for me But it gets me emotional and what is that? What is that? And we don't know. I don't know I think I'm still trying to figure out why I love this movie so much. Why do I prance around the world with Twilight t-shirts? I'm not completely sure. Maybe I need to talk to my therapist about it next week.

No, I really do think that some of the most thoughtful, wonderful, progressive people that I know are obsessed with Twilight. So there's something going on. There's something in the water. It's just so campy. It's heroin. It's our own personal brand of heroin. It cannot be explained. I feel like I have a similar... It's how I feel about Titanic. And that relationship isn't quite so problematic, but I would still argue that it's pretty problematic between Drac and Rose. And I've seen this movie going on 200 times now, and it's my comfort movie. And I also love that ContraPoints in her video references Titanic constantly. So that made me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. But millennial canon, you one must reference Titanic.

Yeah, I'm just like, I'm not even generally compelled by romantic stories. But every once in a while, something like Titanic or something like Twilight, I'm just like, I can't stop watching. And we just don't know why. Whether we like it or not, Twilight is a generational text. And that's not to say that it's good, but it is a generational touch point and I think that it is worth engaging with

because there's something about it that keeps some of the greatest minds of our generation really, really, really loving it. There's something to it. And it is ultimately kind of like a weird Mormon fantasy. Yeah. But maybe that's the shit we like and we should be asking why. And that's what we've done for two hours here today.

It does pass the Bechtel test. It does pass the Vectal test. It does pass the Vectal test. The last thing I want to say is Renee is a bad mom. Yeah. Sorry. She's a bad mom. Yeah. I know that she's supposed to seem quirky, but I'm like, no, this is quirky in this context

is negligent. Yeah. She doesn't answer her phone. She like loses her phone charger too. Like how's your kid supposed to contact you? Yeah. Calling from a payphone. Your kid is getting run over by vans in parking lots and attacked by vampires constantly. Yeah especially if your kid has a chronic condition of falling down. Yeah. You're just gonna leave her in a very slippery climate. Slippery, it's cold and wet there.

A slippery place. I'm so curious if Bella has what's called Ehlers-Danlos syndrome. Yeah, because there's different subsets of it, but one of them is hypermobility. And a lot of the times people with Ehlers-Danlos syndrome are prone to more accidents. I haven't been formally diagnosed with Ehlers-Danlos syndrome are prone to more accidents. I haven't been formally diagnosed with Ehlers-Danlos syndrome, but I do have hypermobility and

I do exhibit some of the clumsiness that Bella has. A lot of things fall out of my hands quite easily. So I'm so curious about if that's Ehlers-Danlos syndrome coded in some capacity. Interesting. But anyways, that's just, yeah, fun fact. I guess. No, I didn't know that. Right. I mean, it makes you wonder about different attributes that certain characters are imbued

with that like probably have some underlying thing that the author didn't fully understand't intend. Fully understand or just like observed in other people. Yeah. But like didn't understand like, oh, that person has a disability or you know, whatever the case may be. Right. Speaking of disability, while Gil Birmingham who plays Billy Black

is a native actor, which is better than we can say, of one Taylor Lautner. He is playing a disabled character and is not himself disabled, which I think is always worth calling out. Certainly. Which isn't a criticism of Gil Birmingham,

because I know indigenous actors have enough difficulty being cast in the first place, but that is again, just fully a failure of the production to prioritize any sort of inclusivity in their casting. And outside of that, I mean, it is a very white story. There is some diversity in Forks Washington, but the characters who are not white tend to have mysteriously small roles.

Such as Eric, Angela and Tyler, I think are the three non-white students. And they comparatively to like Mike and Diana Kendrick, I don't remember. Jessica, they get way more screen time. They get way more focus. It's the white students we're paying attention to. Yeah. As we were hinting at earlier, the movie does pass the Bechtel test. Not well. No. But it does.

Not well, but it's there. But again, that's nothing compared to the nipple scale, the Bechtel cast nipple scale in which we rate the movie examining it through an intersectional feminist lens, zero to five nipples. I wonder what we gave it on the first episode. I do not remember. I'm gonna look it up, but I won't tell you. You have to decide and then I'll hold the secret. Okay.

Even though we've had a much more nuanced conversation than the first go-around. It's a tricky motherfucker. It really is. Yeah, it really is. But I still don't think this movie has a net good impact on society, or at least not for young people watching it. I think for people who maybe watched it as a young person and took the messaging from it, which was reductive and harmful, and then had to unlearn a lot of stuff. But again, as we discussed, that's not just Twilight's fault. That's a whole cluster of movies and other media that were presenting a very similar toxic dynamic and framing it as ideal and romantic and something

to strive for. So this is just one entry of many things that did that, but this was so popular and so consumed by so many people who were adversely affected by it. But it does have this weird cultural legacy. I don't know, the representation of indigenous people is absolutely abhorrent and there's no defending it whatsoever. And I'm going to focus on that as the basis for my rating. Yeah, I mean, it's an intersectional podcast. That makes sense. Yes. Yes. So it's gonna be one and a half or two nipples, I think. I'll say one and a half nipples. But it is,

I'd say it's like an eight out of 10 on the Caitlin rompo meter. I mean, the baseball scene hits. Yeah, but yeah, one and a half nipplesipples and I'll give them to a spider monkey. No specific spider monkey, but just spider monkeys, I guess, in general. I'm gonna go one nipple, I think. And I say that feeling weirdly defensive of this movie at different points in the episode. I think that this movie's cultural impact, I mean, I can't say what the cultural impact is on the whole. I do think that this franchise has a really weird, interesting history that continues to either delight

or haunt us, depending on how we feel about it. I think that, you know, it's clearly gonna be with us for a while, people still have a lot of interest in talking about it and revisiting it. And I also, you know, this is something that a lot of young people were ashamed to enjoy and therefore could not start a lot of conversations about why that was at the time. I think it is like really interesting. I mean, Bella, you know, bless her heart, she's giving nothing.

She never has been. She never will be. And I, you know, bless her heart. She's giving nothing. She never has been, she never will be. And I, you know, that's who Bella is. And I know that someone's gonna yell at me about that. And, you know, I do think that there is this very conservative fantasy to some extent that is played out throughout these movies of Bella does find some agency, but it's mainly through marriage and motherhood

and you know, all this stuff. We'll talk about this in later episodes. For this, you know, I did see myself in Bella to some extent as a kid where it was like, I didn't feel like, I mean, in the book, they sort of harp on this a little more of like, Bella has never been recognized as attractive or someone who's interesting. And all of a sudden, she's somewhere where she's the most interesting, attractive person in the world. And what misfit wouldn't be pulled in by that? And I think that a lot of people who felt out of place,

that fantasy is so appealing to be desired and for you to be often in a dangerous way, but in a dangerous way that not a lot of people understood in our generation, but like to be wanted. And I think that that's part of why I understand the appeal and part of what still doesn't sit well with me because of the intended audience where, you know, it's not Stephanie Meyer's job to raise us. But I do think it is like the responsibility of others and the larger culture to not just reinforce someone's horny dreams, worst instincts. But there's still

so much getting back to what we've been talking about. Yeah. I mean, I'm docking mainly for indigenous representation and the one visit to the library approach and no further compensation or acknowledgement of the people whose culture you are profiting off of directly and misunderstanding and misrepresenting. There's just absolutely no excuse for that. The feminist discourse around this, I'm going to just be like, go with God. Whatever you like, I've read every take in the world and I don't know which is right. To me, I liked Bella because I was like,

I wear these shoes, but ultimately on revisit, I do think she's boring. I think that Edward's like, I don't see what you're thinking because she's not. But ultimately, I think Team Jacob was the right team. One nipple. And I am gonna give that nipple to the truck. I thought the truck was cool.

Oh, sure. I liked the truck. I don't care if it's not like other girls' truck, I would drive that truck. Okay. Awesome. Dee and Allie, how about you? Nipples, nipples.

I'm thinking, I think I might go for like one and a half. Basically, for a lot of the reasons that you both have mentioned, the indigenous representation is lacking, so many different problems with this movie, portraying a toxic relationship as an ideal. It's really hard to give this movie anything more than one and a half nipples. And I think for me, one of the most iconic scenes

in the movie is the baseball scene with Alice and her pitch with her leg. Oh my God, the little kick. Yes. Oh my gosh, what is she doing? It's honestly, it's fucking beautiful. And I think that's when I realized I was bisexual was when I watched Alice pitch during the baseball scene.

And I think that's like a really beautiful thing. So I think at the end of the day, like, you know, when I was younger, I was, I was Team Edward. But in reality, like, I'm definitely like team Alice, like all the way. Alice is an awesome character. I like her. Yeah. And even when I think about her relationship to Jasper, which we didn't really talk about, but I feel like she is kind of more of the Dom in the relationship.

I think she takes control, and I really like that about her. And I see myself more and more in Alice than any other character in the movie. Nice. Sadly, I cannot lift my leg like that when I pitch. I don't even pitch. I don't play sports. Um... I do visit the library, though.

But, yeah, I think I'm gonna give one nipple to Alice and her leg. And then the other half nipple, I think I'm gonna give it to Mr. Molina, the teacher, because it's a fellow educator. Oh my God, you're so right. No relation to Alfred Molina, but but I know how crazy you are about Alfred Molina. Yes. But yeah, I think I'm gonna give half a nipple to

Mr. Molina because as a fellow educator, like he's just so earnest about science and really getting these students like invested in STEM. So I really appreciate that about Mr. Molina. Yeah, I think he says like, compost is cool. And it is, compost is cool. So I'm gonna give half a nipple to Mr. Molina, absolutely. Hell yeah. Amazing.

Deideli, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for having me. And thank you for choosing the exact right shirt. I mean, I always do, but especially today. Tell us where people can find you online, check out your work, plug away. So you can find a lot of info about me on my website at dnlaantigua.com. You can follow me on Instagram at Nalphel13 and that's N-E-L-L-F-E-L-L-1-3. And yes, I've had that screen name and I've used it for everything since I was 13.

And yeah, I do a lot of poetry readings and events locally, but I'm also traveling to universities and you can find all the info about my events on my website. My upcoming events are Mass Poetry Festival in Salem, Massachusetts coming up at the end of May. And I don't know when this podcast will be coming out, but- I think before then. Before then, yeah. That's a thing that I do.

I'm one of the headlining poets. Yay. Oh my God. So come and listen to my poetry and I'll be on a panel as well with some other Latinx writers. So yeah, that's where you can find me and learn more about me. Oh, also, I almost forgot. I have two books. My first one is Ugly Music and my second collection came out last year with Copper Canyon Press.

It's called Good Monster and you can find those where books are sold. Be like Bella, buy it independent booksellers. Yes. That's Bella's true triumph of Twilight One. She shops local. Yes. Yeah. She says, Amazon, no thank you.

I'm going into a brick-and-mortar store and buying local the best way to support our show is to subscribe to our Patreon aka matri on where we release two bonus episodes every single month centering an amazing genius brilliant theme Plus access to the entire back catalog, which is nearing Plus access to the entire back catalogue which is nearing 200 episodes. So lots of hashtag content over there at patreon.com slash Bechtelcast. Also check out our Linktree, Linktree slash Bechtelcast for information about different things if we have upcoming shows that'll be there. If we have, we have our shows that'll be there, if we have we

have our letterboxed link on there, all kinds of stuff. And with that let's irrevocably get in our rusty old red pickup truck. Uh-huh. And zoom zoom into the twilight sky. Okay! I don't know. Bye! Bye! The Bechtel cast is a production of iHeart Media, hosted by Caitlin Durante and Jamie Loftus,

produced by Sophie Lichterman, edited by Mo Laborde. Our theme song was composed by Mike Kaplan with vocals by Catherine Voskrasensky. Our logo and merch is designed by Jamie Loftus, and a special thanks to Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about the podcast, please visit linktree.bechtelcast.