The Bechdel Cast - West Side Story (1961) with Becca Ramos

Episode Date: February 5, 2026

*finger snap* Jamie, Caitlin, and special guest Becca Ramos *finger snap* discuss West Side Story (1961) finger snap Follow Becca on Instagram at @beccsramos and check out her new podcast, Welcome to El Barrio!    See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Start changing it with the Becdo Cats. This is how all podcasts should start now. That's a good way to sync audio is to do the West Side Starysnaps. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like that was a solid intro. We just did what the movie did. Right. I feel good about that.

I feel great about it. Welcome to the Bechtel cast. My name is Caitlin Durante. My name is Jamie Loftus. This is our podcast where we talk about your favorite movies using an intersectional feminist. lens and the Bechtel test as a jumping off point for discussion. But Caitlin, what is the Bechdel test? Please tell me for the five, probably literally the 500th time. Probably. Yes. Yes. The Bechtel test is a media metric created by a dear friend of ours, Alison Bechtel. We go way back with her.

To last year. It appeared in her comic Dykes to watch out for in the 80s, originally, also known as the Bechtel Wallace test. It has many versions of it. The one that we use is this. Do two characters of a marginalized gender have names? Do they speak to each other? And is there conversation about something other than a man? Also, we like it when it's like narratively meaningful dialogue and not just like throw away nonsense. It can't be about Tony as the point. We cannot be talking or Bernardo about Tony or Bernardo. And we're going to encounter some challenges this week. We're going to encounter some challenges this week. But we have, I mean, I was talking with someone about the podcast yesterday, as I've, as I've been known to do.

Oh, sure. A friend of the show, Michael Hobbs. And he was saying, he was like, oh, it must be like hard after almost 10 years to like keep finding, you know, new movies. And I was like, you would be surprised at like how many movies have been made. And just like, I don't know. There's, there's no telling why, like, there's just some movies we haven't. gotten to or like we there was a re-release or a remake and it just didn't happen i don't know all that to say today is a movie that uh is probably one of the most famous movies that exists and here we are covering it 10 years later all that to say podcast life is long baby oh my gosh we're talking about west side story 1961 the original film adaptation here to talk about the

this movie with us is a cherished guest. She's the producer of some of your favorite podcasts, such as Las Culturistas, The Daily Zekegeist, and Mess. And she's the host of the new podcast. Welcome to El Barrio. And you remember her from our episode on Magic Mike XXL, never forget. It's Becca Ramos. Hello.

Welcome back. A coveted stop on my press tour. The Bechtel cast. I'm so excited to be. back and to be here. Welcome back. It's so great to have you here. Before we, before we get into the rich text that is West Side Story, I want to know more about the podcast. Tell us about Welcome to Al Barrio. Yes. So welcome to El Barrio is a podcast about all things Puerto Rico, where I interview notable Boricuas, whether they are artists, tastemakers, community leaders,

musicians, etc. about, you know, what they are doing to redefine what it means. to be Puerto Rican, not Puerto Rico. And with the host by the end of every episode that all the listeners feel a little bit closer of Borinken, no matter where they are in the world. So I'm so excited to be doing it. It's been like five years in the making from like inception of idea to like it live.

So it's crazy. It's like I've been working on this for so long and it's like, oh my God, it's out. Here it is. Here it is. Congratulations, that's so exciting. Thank you. We got our first few episodes already recorded. I just finished doing the first episode, which is a narrative style episode, kind of giving everybody a taste of what the show will be and why am I doing it and why now? I think a lot of people right now are assuming maybe this podcast is coming out because of bad bunnies rise, but that's not true. We are more than bad bunny as much as we love him. And so it's a little bit of an introduction to me. And then the rest is going to be talk show, chat show. And we have, already three episodes recorded.

I went to Puerto Rico to record them, which was like really fun and very like exciting. But yeah. Oh, congratulations. And also so silly that anyone would be like, oh, because bad bunny? And you're like, well, you're like, yeah, he's one guy. But, you know, the island has existed for centuries.

Great guy, but, but just one guy. But just one guy. People love to say, is it because of one guy? The answer is never yet. They're like, he's the most famous guy, though. And I'm like, no, no, no. I mean, yes, but no. Well, congratulations.

We can't wait to listen. Thank you. And we wanted to talk about a movie today that is in conversation with the topic of your podcast. Hence West Side's story. So, Becca, tell us about your relationship with this film. Well, you know what's funny. you guys. Oh no.

Hopefully you can hear me over my two loud hot dogs. But what I find interesting is that I thought you guys had covered this. When I had pitched a bunch of Puerto Rican movies, I was like, yeah, but they've already done West Side Story. Like, obviously. Shockingly known. I honestly don't. I feel like it's a movie we've almost covered several times and it just has like never made someone's final pick. I don't know why.

Yeah. But to say my history, this is a movie that I feel like if you are Puerto Rican, If you grew up, you know, with very Puerto Rican parents, they're like, yeah, in West Side Story, it's, you know, a historical text of our culture. And I'm like, okay, yeah. And I remember my dad because he's a big movie buff. It's probably where I got my love for movies. He also loves old Hollywood shit.

And so he made me sit down and watch this among like Bush Cassidy and the Sundance Kid and like things like that nature. And I remember watching it and being a little bored the first time. I might watch it as a kid. But then, since then, I went and saw it with my family, the 2021 redo. And I remember having lots of complicated feelings about that version. But upon this rewatch, I have grown a lot of love for both versions of the movie. And it's placed in Puerto Rican history at large.

And I actually, you know, what's funny, I asked my parents what their history with the movie was, because all I knew. was like, this is a strong movie in my household, but I couldn't remember for the life of me why it mattered to my parents. And my mom actually sent a voice note, and I honestly forgot to listen to it before this. But my dad sent an email,

which was very long. Really a strong multimedia family. You know, my dad is a man of literature. He loves to write. And let me see if I can, like, do a little summary of it for you. Because I thought it was, like, very sweet because he's a man of few words in person. but in email he loves to write a lot.

He's a yapper. There's many dads that I feel like really come alive in an email. They're just like, I can never express to you how much I love you in person, but I will write you a lovely letter. Yeah. Just kind of nice. I'm like, which is beautiful. But as I'm like skimming it, it is long.

But essentially my dad is somebody who he never really identified with his Puerto Ricanness. he's not, which is why I actually was shocked he loved the movie so much, because he's not a proud Puerto Rican like my mom is. But I guess like when he was young, this is like one of the few movies his cousin took him to who had moved in with him for the summer. And it was like one of the first pieces of media that he saw Puerto Ricans portrayed in. And it was such a successful movie that he really felt in love with it. And was like one of the first and only times he felt proud to be Puerto Rican was watching this

movie. So he also grew up in L.A., so big movie town, obviously. And I think being in L.A. when you don't have a Puerto Rican community, there's not a large community. He didn't identify with the Chicano community too much either. So I think this was just like one of his first moments where he was like, oh my God, there's me. Representation matters. Wow. That's so lovely. Yeah. It's so interesting to especially people who were like alive when it came out or even like pre the 2021 movie coming out because there is like such a specific relate like it's a very individual relationship that people formed to this movie and it seems like specifically uh puerto rican americans where where there's like i mean there's like a lin-manuel miranda connection all i mean

all over this musical he like oh yeah translated lyrics in uh 2009 to have spanish lyrics on stage all this stuff but he you can hear some of the music is also like i know i don't think he's credited as like the composer but you can hear like i'm like i'm like i'm like like, oh, I hear in the Heights in some of these songs in the 2021 version. Totally. Yeah. And like the visual, uh, influence is like very clear. 2021 was a very interesting year for movie musicals that starred Puerto Rican characters.

It was like, because we still haven't covered in the heights, um, I think because we were sort of trying to give some time. Yeah. Because it was such a fraught conversation going on around colorism, rightfully so at the time that we're, we're still, we're still waiting to cover it. But I mean, and the same year. that Steven Spielberg directs West Side Story, which was a conversation all its own.

And, you know, beautiful movie, but why? You know, all this stuff. And wasn't it, it was John Cho who directed in the Heights, I believe, right? I have so many thoughts. That's why I put on my list. I was like, that one, I have a lot of thoughts on. John Chu. John Chu.

John Chu, Slade Wicked, Avi, Slade Crazy Retrations. But Slade step up two? Yeah, three? Yeah, and Justin Bieber's documentary? A generational artist, but. But this was not, I think, I think he was set up for failure in a way. And I was actually shocked, and this is obviously a discussion to come back on for In the Heights later. But I was shocked Lynn didn't direct it himself because later, I think that year, he directed

Tick, Tick Boom as his directorial debut. So I was like, you were already putting your hat in the director ring. Right. Why didn't you just direct it? I was also confused. I wonder. I don't know. I was also sort of confused at that, but he gave an interview around, I think it was for a documentary release about Rita Moreno around the time that the re-release came out in 2021, talking about the first time he saw West Side Story.

And it sounds very similar to your dad's anecdote where he was, you know, saying like he saw it for the first time on VHS when he was 12 and was like shocked that the theme of being Puerto Rican was explored at all. and that it was like, you know, like flawed but exciting. And yes. Yeah, it's interesting here. And then you hear the total opposite of, you know, Puerto Rican viewers who were like, I hated it from moment one because brown face. And you're like, yes. It's like such a caricature of the Puerto Rican identity for sure.

And I think I always felt complicated about that because I watched it and I was like, huh? But now that I am like doing the show and I've done a lot of research for this episode, and I now watched both of them back to back. I was like, okay, I see both sides of this conversation. I see why the generation before us loved and hated it, because there are people of my dad's generation that were like, this is awful.

And when the Broadway musical came out like on Broadway, it was obviously very poorly received by Puerto Ricans, but I do think because it was, it was truly white people in brown face. Like it was vaudeville, you know, there were no Puerto Rican actors doing any of the roles when it was on Broadway. but then in the movie production,

they had at least like a couple Latinos, they had Rita Moreno, but like, you know, it was just like a slight step up from what was on Broadway. Yeah, I was, I mean, researching what the original Broadway production was like, it was pretty horrific. Yeah. And as well as, I mean, we'll talk about this later in the episode, but specifically how the song America was like revised and revised,

and it's kind of still being revised is, is frustrating and fascinating to learn about. Yeah, have you ever seen it on stage? I've never, I think I've maybe seen a high school production of it. I'm from Texas, so they did not care to do this in any of our high school productions. I mean, it wasn't a theater kid, but I did, I had a lot of theater friends, so I would go see all of their shows. But I remember our town being a big one.

I don't remember the other few that they did. But it was never Westside. And even at Baylor, where it is a big. theater arts program at Baylor. We never did it at Baylor either. Wonder why, joker. So I had never seen it and they only revived it recently when the 2021 came out but I didn't get a chance to see it here in New York. So no, I haven't seen it but I would love to. Yeah. Caitlin, what is your history with West Side Story? Oh my gosh. I saw it for the first time during either during the great Caitlin movie binge of 2005 or I

I also did a smaller movie binge in like 2003 when I was still in high school and I was like deciding that I wanted to be a film major and I have to watch some movies to prepare for that. I think it might have been then, whatever. Either way, it's like been 20 or more years since I've seen it. And I didn't quite realize this until I rewatched to prep for this episode, but almost every song in this movie is so entrenched in the zeitgeist that they were all very, very familiar to me. And I was like, oh, I didn't even realize that that song was from this. I feel pretty. Musical. I didn't remember that at all. That was the one that I was like, wait a minute. That's from West Side Story. Yeah. Yeah. So it's weird. It's like seeing the Nutcracker and you're like, wait, I know all of these.

Yeah. I didn't realize. Yeah. Right. So that was, you know, that was kind of a pleasant surprise. But listeners of the podcast might know this, but I'm not the biggest musical head. So I tend not to seek them out or if I do watch them, it's kind of that one time. Although I did see the 2021 Spielberg adaptation when it came out. And I was like, why is the lighting in this movie so weird? Why am I watching all these people dance all the time? Why am I looking at Angel Elscourt? Or what I'm going to the F, Ansel Elgort.

Yeah, sex criminal, Ansel Elgort. I do appreciate that at very least, he has sort of been removed from the culture, it seems like, to the point where I no longer know his name. So, you know, good job, everyone. Good job. Yes, yes. He wasn't good enough for people to want to keep him around. So they were like, okay, you're getting canceled. We can just let you go.

Yeah. Also, totally forgot the guy from Challenger's. Mike Faced. Oh, yeah, Mike Fice. Yeah. Feist is the is is is it Feast or Feist I'm not sure I have no idea I don't know either way he stole the show He's I he's so I he's so great casting and I have some notes about the 2021 version But most of this episode will be focused on the

1961 adaptation just because there's so much like I feel like we should almost do an entirely Separate episode about 2021 but we get we should talk about like some of the adaptation changes and stuff for sure But yeah that's pretty much my history It has catchy songs, and those are the main things that I remembered about it. But as we've been saying, it's a rich text and there's a lot to discuss. So I'm excited to get into it. Jamie, what is your relationship with West Side Story? Nothing and a lot.

I remember seeing this movie for the first time in middle school with a very impactful music teacher. I had, Mrs. Volani, a shout out to her. she showed it to us during class and I think similar to you Becca I was like this is long this is very long it's three hours and there's an intermission built into the movie

yeah and for that reason I'm sure it took us like four school days to watch and I was sort of like sure right not I definitely saw a community production of it as a kid that I don't recall and then I didn't see it for a long time I actually I will out myself as I have done a lot of research about the Spielberg

adaptation I still haven't seen it That's okay. But I am a member of Rachel Zegler Nation, proud member of Rachel Zegler Nation. Yes. But yeah, I haven't seen the new one. But I did get a chance last year to see. I'm a big Rita Moreno fan. I got to interview her five years ago.

And it was like one of the highlights of life. She's so amazing. And last year, my friend works at the Academy Museum in L.A. and got us tickets to see West Side Story with Rita Moreno introducing it. And it was so wonderful. It was a great. I mean, I definitely liked it a lot better seeing it in a huge theater because it was both Rita Moreno and Tony.

Oh, my God. Tony, who's also in Twin Peaks. Richard Bamer was there. And at the time, yeah, and he's still alive. But he and Rita Moreno had this very. sweet dynamic. I guess they've been friends for like our parents' entire lifetimes. Rita Moreno is so funny and I mean, we'll talk about this as we get into the discussion, but I really appreciate how she, I don't know, I feel like she's really able to like hold a lot of truths at once when it

comes to this movie. She is not shy about talking about the obvious glaring issues with this movie of the aggressive use of brown face. She had a lot of comments. on stage this time, I believe, in like over the years about how the scene with Anita Leight in the movie where she's assaulted by the Jets, how that personally affected her. But my, the most impactful part of the discussion to me was when, apropos of nothing in the middle of this talk back, where she was talking about West Side story in a way that I'd heard her talk before, she randomly brought up that she had fucked Marlon Brando and his dick was huge. Oh, I have a lot. I have a lot to add to that discussion on the Marlon Brando of it all.

because I just read her memoir. Oh my God. And there is, it's like, it's like, girl, at 90 years old, my love, let it go. She is still, she's still hung up. We'll get into that. But like, I'm like, I have so much knowledge right now about it. It's crazy. Please, I haven't read her memoir yet, but it was so funny because everyone was like, wait, what question prompted this anecdote?

If she can, she will. She's like, and the love of my love. life, even though I was married to a man for 50-something years and have my child with them. I know. I love Marlon Brando. And you're like, you're like, girl, Rita Moreno. He did not love you that way. Like, oh. But that's, but isn't that the one you end up hung up on? Uh, too bad for her. I know. I was, I was, I was, I was, like, oh, and she was married for so long. He did not come up. No. Um, she's truly like, that's my daughter's father and that's it. I might have been married to him, but That's my daughter's father.

Not my husband. Yeah. My husband was a beard for Marlon Brando. Basically. It's like in Titanic when Old Rose is like, my husband who? I only care about Jack Dawson. No, it literally is like that. Except it's more romantic in Titanic because Jack Dawson obviously loved her.

And in real life, Marlon Brando abused Rita Miranda for her. A bad, yeah. A bad man. Yeah. And I do recommend, it's a rare experience, but I do recommend the version of watching West. You'll like it so much better if Rita Morano talks about Marlon Brando's penis immediately before it starts. That was the most recent time I had seen it. And, yeah, I mean, I'm able to appreciate a lot of this movie.

I love a musical. It's beautiful. It's like colorful. Rita Moreno steals the show. Steels a show. I do, you know, I will always feel that Natalie Wood and Richard Bamer, bless their hearts, are stinking up the place. We'll obviously be talking in depth about the use of brownface throughout the history of this production. And I have some notes on Natalie Wood's racism.

That's from Rita Moreno's book. Really? Okay. Yeah. So in spite of the fact that the two leads, I will say, are very poorly cast for multiple reasons. the supporting cast is wonderful and I appreciate it with many asterisks and I'm excited to talk

about it. Yes, yes indeed. Well, let's take a quick break and then we'll come back for the recap. The newest tracks. Let's go. New music. And the next big thing. Always on the new music first. Your first place to hear it all.

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Search Two Guys Five Rings and listen now. Welcome to the A building. I'm Hans Charles. I'm Inalek Lamoma. It's 1969. Malcolm X and Martin Luther King Jr. have both been assassinated. And Black America was out of breaking point. Writing and protests broke out on an unprecedented scale.

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We're back. I wonder how that's going to actually sound on the recording. I know because it keeps going on the Zoom. So it's like we can hear it in your mic probably, but not in our mics. We're like, yes, exactly. I did it perfectly, just so you know. Okay, here's the story. We open on a street gang of young men slash, are they teenagers?

They're like CW. I think that I like the CW casting here, where everyone's like kind of 40. Everyone's definitely at least 30 because Rita Moreno's 30 at this time. But they're playing like, yeah. 16, 18, maybe early 20s. It's all like very young people, right? Yeah. Anyway, this street gang of men are snapping their fingers and dancing their way through New York City. Ever heard of it? These are the Jets. I love the snaps. The snaps are iconic. Yes. They are white men, an unsettling number of them are blonde. Which is purposeful, mind you. That was a casting

choice. Yeah. Yeah. Their leader is RIF. Played by Amber Tamblin's dad. Oh my gosh. Wow. I didn't know that she was a Nepo baby. It's, yeah, I guess if you don't know about 1950s Broadway star Russ Tamplin, it's a non-starter. And then a few others, we meet our characters named Ice. A horrible name with the current affiliation. There's a character named Action. There's a character with a name that I don't even want to say because it's a slur for Arab people.

Not sure what's happening there. Anyway, those are the Jets. They encounter various members of the Sharks, a group of Puerto Rican men. And as we've alluded to several times already, it is a lot of white actors in Brownface. Can I know which ones are actually Puerto Rican and not? Yes, yes, please. Yeah, please. Okay, so Chino, who is Jose de Vega, he is not Puerto Rican, but he is Colombian and Filipino.

He's one of the few actual men of color on the sharks. Jaime Rogers, Loco, is Puerto Rican, and he's from Huncos, which is where Rita Moreno is from. Oh, wow. And the main shark, though, Bernardo, he is actually Greek, and he played riff in the West Side Story Broadway. production. So they literally just like race traded him and brown faced him and they're like you could be Bernardo. And he won an Oscar. And he wanted an Oscar for it, which is the amount of times the Oscars have awarded performances of this nature. I mean, like just openly offensive performances. Still happens. Still happens. I'm looking at you, Eddie Redmayne, Danish girl. Still happens to this day.

Yeah. So the thing about the Jets and the sharks is that they are rivals. You might even call it a heated rivalry, but it's different. I do feel like, I mean, this is like what there's in the 20,000 things there are to talk about in this movie, the like top gun nature to the fraternal, like the fraternal nature of the gangs. Like there, there is some eroticism. This was written by, it will not shock you or anyone if you don't know that this was. a musical written by white gay guys. Yeah.

Yes. Correct. At the time, closeted and therefore they were, from what I read, exercising some of their own issues through the text. Yes. Yes.

Yeah. So the point is the Jets and the sharks are rivals kind of like the Capulets and the Montague's. What? Is this a Romeo and Juliet adaptation? Except in this case, one group is very racist toward the other group and you can guess which so they're like on the same playground or so they're in the streets together and they are dance fighting for a while until a couple

cops show up this is lieutenant shrank and i'm like lieutenant shrek there's not the only Shrek connection, Shrenection of this because I feel like we have to have brought this up at some point. Rachel Zegler, iconically, when she got the part of Maria in the 2021 version, they wanted her to start filming and she's like, well, I have to

finish starring as Princess Fiona in my high school's production of Shred musical. Oh my gosh. And then I'll join your little movie, Steven Spielberg. She's so awesome. I did not know that. That's amazing. Yeah. Wow. Shout out Rachel Zegler, a very outspoken pro-Palestine advocate.

Yes. Which I'm a fan of Rachel Zegler as a person. I will say did not like her as Maria. And that's a conversation for later. But I haven't seen. I'm like, I'm a fan of her, but I just don't think she was quite right for the part. I think people are very wrapped up in her vocals, which are no question some of the best vocals out there. Right. And they were incredible in the movie. But I don't think she was a couple. and Maria. And we can have that discussion later. I'm so curious for your thoughts. Yeah, I still haven't, I still haven't seen her as Maria, but she does have perfect politics and is a podcast listener. She's like done on blank check. Fan of you, Rachel Zegler. Yeah. She should come on our show. Yeah. But I'm, oh, I'm excited to talk about the 2021 version. Interesting.

Okay, so it's Lieutenant Shrek. Yeah, it's Shrek. And, and Shrek is a bad man. He's a really bad man. Yeah. And we'll talk about the character's relationship to the police in this movie because I think it's quite interesting. I think it's more, it's way more nuanced that I recalled. Yes. Yes.

For sure. So it's, so it's Lieutenant Shrank and Officer Kupke. They show up to try to like kind of break up the dance fight. But the various members of the two gangs refused to wrap. on each other. And one of them even suggests that it was the cops who injured one of the Jets. So the Jets and the sharks say Acab. They said ACAB street rules. Yeah. And the cops were like, stop. You guys, stop it. And then they eventually leave. Also, in this version of New York, if only it were real, there's two cops. There's only two cops that are following this

specific gang around. They're like, I'm with you. We're racist too. The other word, Officer Kropki reminded me of Kronk from Emperor's New Groove, where he's just like not a thought in this man's head, many such cops. He's just bully. He's just like, yeah. Hey, guys, knock it off. Knock it off. Yes.

So the cops eventually leave and the jets wonder what to do about the sharks quote unquote encroaching on their turf. Riff, the leader of the Jets, announces that they should have one huge fight, a big rumble, a fight to end all fights with the sharks. But first, they need to negotiate with the sharks about the terms of this rumble. So Riff goes to Tony, who used to be a jet, and Tony is still friends with them, but he's like not really involved in their gang activities anymore. They do not give enough backstory as to like why and like what happened, which 2021 burden tries to revise. But yeah. Correct. Yeah.

I feel like, yeah. In 61, it's just like he's like, well, I'm kind of over it. Yeah. Okay. You're like, that's not how gangs work. I'm really into my part-time job now, guys. Sorry. Yeah.

So he's out of the group. But Riff wants to rope him back in. Riff loves Tony. He's like. He's basically like, hey, babe, want to go to the dance with me tonight? I promise the world. You come. I'm to confront the sharks and start a war.

I do really like the Tony's first song. There's like this, something that I think this movie does really well is like very like romanticizes and captures naive optimism and love. And I like that first Tony's song and I like the dance scene for that reason. Yeah. So Tony reluctantly agrees to join this negotiation. But again, with Tony, he's more of a lover than a fighter. And he's talking about how he's been yearning for something.

And maybe that something is the love of a woman. And maybe that woman is Maria, who we cut to. She is played by Natalie Wood. Oops, another white person in Brownface, who, as is very very, common at this time is not singing her own role. So there's the only justification for her playing this role is that she was famous at the time. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So Maria is getting ready for the dance. She is Bernardo's sister who has recently arrived in New York from Puerto Rico. She's hanging out with her friend Anita, played by Rita Moreno, who is dating Bernardo. Maria is supposed to marry,

or she's like kind of been linked up with this guy named Chino, one of the sharks, but she's not thrilled about it. Which some insight on why they probably named him Chino, specifically based on who they casted. I don't, I mean, I don't know if they had this thought with the actual Broadway production,

but in a lot of like Latino communities, they will give you a nickname based on like a characteristic of you. And I'm assuming they casted a Filipino and Latino, actor because Chino usually means that person is Asian. So they were probably like he's Chinese and Puerto Rican, so we call him Chino. Interesting. Okay. Interesting.

Yeah. There were certain nicknames throughout the Jets and Sharks that I was like, I don't know if there is a ground for this or if it is just like vaguely racist free form jazz. It's a little bit of both because it's like Chino could be like some racist shit the white people wrote because that's why I'm like, I don't know how much historical context I have. But it's also not out of character for Latino communities. Like I was called flaca my whole life because I was like the skinny cousin, you know.

So yeah, it's partially that. Okay. Sure. So then we cut to the dance. The Jets and the Sharks are both there because her four be damned when there's a school dance to be had. You got to dance. And this means another dance fight. Although, okay, so in this movie there are fight dances.

And then there are dance fights. Yes. And there are two different things. Yes. This. You know it when you see it. Yes. Precisely.

This is an example of a dance fight. It's so good. I love it. This is one of my favorite scenes. It's so fun. It's so like old Hollywood, but like the best parts of old Hollywood where people really like were like focused on their craft and they were dancers and they were singers and they were actors and it's like the colors and the editing.

It's such. You see Rita Moreno really shine like as a dancer. here. It's so good. It's so good. It's so cool. And the Jerome Robbins choreography. Yes. So beautiful. For those that are locked into Jerome Robbins culture, he directed and was an iconic choreographer. I feel like he's like kind of on par with Bob Fawsey for like the most influential choreographers of like the 20th century. He did on the town. Peter Pan. The King and I, the Pajama game, West Side Story. Fiddler on the roof. He won two Oscars. He's just. like incredible the dance fights and the fight dances are just undeniable very well choreographed yeah yeah so at the dance maria and tony meet and they go hubba hubba a wuga and they fall immediately in love i love the editing they're so in love you're like and they're about to kiss but bernardo butts in and separates them being like stay away from my sister thus the forbid

in Romeo and Juliet-esque love story. Then Riff and Bernardo make arrangements to have their Rumble negotiation meeting that night at midnight. So everyone leaves the dance. Tony heads home. He's singing about how much he loves Maria. He just met a girl named Maria. Well, yes, yes. Say it loud and there's music playing.

Say it softly and it's almost. Like pray. I really... So good. This musical really captures falling in love. It's so sweet. This reminded me a lot of, because Stephen Sondheim wrote the lyrics for these songs. And it's very similar to another song he writes later in Sweeney Todd Joanna, which is basically the same song, but different.

He's like, I feel you, Joanna. Like, it's just like, I just met a woman and now I'm screaming her name in the streets. It's a vibe. I like it. It's like, oh, yeah, I guess the Sondheim. was like, well, so you meet a lady and it feels a little something like this. Well, it's funny that you say that this movie like captures falling in love and it's nice because the cynic in me, I was like, these characters have known each other for two days and

they're already so obsessed with each other that they're willing to die for each other. But that's Shakespeare. But they're kids. It's exciting. I was like, that's the exact. That is what Shakespeare did. It was like, what, three days that all of the Romeo Juliet happens in? Yeah. I mean, at least Natalie Wood isn't a 12-year-old, you know, there's true.

Yeah. But I agree. Watching this version, you are kind of like, I feel like I will give the 2021 credit. I feel like they gave a little bit more for them to like fall in love, at least a little bit more talking. I don't know. And then other characters being like, you've known him for a day. Yeah. Obviously, I don't like when movies do that. I feel like that started in like when Frozen did that, where it's like you have to like call out this like romantic narrative. I don't know. I'm I'm hopeless romantic mode.

But whenever something like that is happening in a movie and someone's like record scratch, wait a second, you just met. I'm like, shut off. It's a movie. And I'm the one making the record scratch because I'm just like, this is ridiculous. And I'm saying, shut the hell up. I'm going to go have sex.

Like I think it's exciting. It's lust. I feel like in this 1961 version, it works for me because, it is so shot like an actual play. Whereas I do feel like in the 19 or 19, the 2021 version, they try to make it a movie. And I do think that's a big difference in the two. Whereas like I can, I'm like,

I'm in the world in the 1961 one because you're like, this is a play. Like it actually looks like I'm watching something on Broadway. But the 2021, they're trying to like world build it more and it feels like a movie. The sets feel more like sets. Yeah. So then I'm kind of taken out.

of it a little more in the 2021 version. Which is wild too because in the, I didn't know, there's a, I feel like we cite her on the show pretty frequently. There's a Be Kind Rewind video essay that sort of compares the two versions and like how the productions were very different and all that. And this movie was considered to be very, it feels like ridiculous to say if it was considered to be very gritty in comparison to other musicals of the time. Yeah.

Because it was actually shot outside and like not. completely on a sound stage. But it looks so Broadway. I don't know. It looks like a Broadway set. It's shocking that it is not. But also most of it is on a Broadway set from what I Google. So I was like, what?

They shot two scenes outside and you're calling it gritty. It's just like the beginning basically. And they're like, never been done before. It's filthy. You're like, okay, sure. Yeah. Okay. So Tony is in love with Maria and Maria is in love with Tony.

Meanwhile, the sharks talk about the racial prejudice they face, how they are treated horribly by white people. This is the scene where they sing, I like to be in America. Okay, by me in America. We'll sidebar on that song, which is a whole episode in and of its own. Lots to unpack there. Yeah. Tony goes to Maria's apartment, but like the outside balcony part. And they sing at each other.

Again, they're obsessed with each other. They make plans to meet up again the following night. Meanwhile, the jets are waiting for the sharks to show up for this negotiation. They're hanging out at this little store owned by a guy named Doc. There are also a few women there, like the women who pile around with the Jets. The groupies kind of. Right. We've got Gratzi.

Velma and a character named Anybody's who we will talk about. And we see the various men be sexist toward these young women. Then that cop, Officer Kruppke, shows up again and hassles the jets. So they sing a song about him and about how society perceives them as delinquents.

then the sharks finally show up and they agree to do a fight tomorrow after dark under the highway where the best fighter from the jets and the sharks will go against each other. It's Bernardo versus ice, but Bernardo was hoping to fight Tony since he's been canoodling with his sister Maria. And objectively, would be pretty easy to be in the fight. Oh, yeah. I think. Tony, I can beat Tony in the fight.

He's got a very punchable face. He does. He does. You're like, yeah, of course you want to beat this guy. Yeah. Then Lieutenant Schrank or whatever shows up wanting to know the details of the fight. But once again, they all refuse to talk. They do not cooperate with the cops.

Then we have the intermission. Cut to the next day. Maria is with her friends. she sings, I feel pretty, oh so pretty. And then she finds out from Anita that there's a big rumble that night between the sharks and the Jets. So when Tony shows up a little bit later, Maria asks him to go and stop it. So he heads out, but not before they sing what I'm sorry, I think is a very boring song. Yes.

Okay, I actually really like this song. Really? I think it's like really cute and fun and funny. they're like, oh my God, like look at our little wedding. I love the, I love how that scene looks. Yes. I think it adds levity to the story that like is not what Steven Spover wanted to do in the re, like he cuts this song completely.

Yeah. And I was kind of sad that he cut this song because it did just like make the movie like very dark in the new remake versus this one kind of has that old Hollywood like comedy to it because like all the Broadway Hollywood movies were kind of like this like see sawing like dark but like comedic tone and I liked that but yeah they get rid of it in the new one and I was sad I like I like it I mean I like this I don't like the song but I do like this sequence especially because the actors do not look as young as they're supposed to be and it is kind of nice to I don't know like following like the same with like the romantic thing is like they're so

desperate to be with each other that they like stage a cutie pot. little wedding with, I don't know, I think it's, I think it's a sweet. Yeah, like, I think this moment in the movie worked for me in, in general because it kind of, A, showed their age of like, they're young, they're in love. Like, we're showing that they're, like, just naive young people. And it kind of, like, shows what it means to be, like, newly in love, that, like, giddy puppy love feeling. And I hate that they got rid of that in the new one, because I do think the tone being so serious in the new one, where it's like, they're like doing this like instead, this very declarative, like, love scene in the new one that I was like,

we haven't worked up to that. Like, it takes me out of it like, Kailen was saying, where I'm like, we're a day in. You guys have already agreed to flee somewhere together. And now you guys are like having this serious talk where she's like, you need to stop this fight. And then he's like, I want to marry you. And you're like, huh?

Like, y'all don't know each other. Whereas in this version, it's like, oh, this is silly. It's supposed to be like, it's not serious. They are getting to know each. they're having fun. I also thought like it was, I wonder what you both think about this. Like on this watch in particular,

it felt like part of what makes that scene like sweet and clearly ominous. Yes. Is, and this is obviously severely undercut by the fact that Natalie Wood is white. But they're like acting out this play situation of their families accepting each other because they know that that would never happen in real life. Yes. And like, I don't know.

I think it's like it's a weirdly. kind of lighthearted way of addressing that in the movie. I agree. Yeah. And I, I liked that the part where they're role playing and like the mannequins are there and the various like dresses and tuxedos and all the stuff that happens before the song, charming. Nice. The song itself, I think the song is kind of mid. I guess you're right. I don't like the song itself. I just like the scene. Yeah. Yeah. Seen is cute. Yeah. Seen good, song bad. Yeah. Okay. So that happens. then the two groups make their way to the Rumble spot and they're about to start fighting. Tony shows up to try to stop it, but he kind of gets roped into the fight.

Again, Bernardo has it out for Tony. So they're scuffling. Things escalate. Knives are drawn. There is a fight dance, not to be confused with a dance fight fight. With a dance fight. Where Bernardo stabs rift. and then Tony retaliates and stabs Bernardo.

Chino goes to Maria to tell her that her new boyfriend just killed her brother, so she is devastated. Okay, but we have to note here that Chino tells Maria because Maria is too focused on like Tony. After he goes, your boyfriend killed your brother, she's like, but is Tony okay? And Chino's like, what the fuck? ripally so because you're like, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. This man you've known for 48 hours murdered your brother and you're still like, but I'm going to run away with him. But Tony? Is he okay?

Yeah. For me, and it's like I know that she's supposed to be very young and naive, but like Maria's behavior is impossible to rationalize. Impossible. Starting here. I mean, especially the way that she treats Anita and like the gravity of what she asks from Anita. Yeah.

It's just like. I think they handle it better in the new version. But still, it's like, in this one, you're like, huh? Absurd. Like, you get actively frustrated with her and Tony. Like, by the end of this movie, a movie I enjoy, I'm not rooting for them. I'm just not. No, you're like, good riddons.

Everyone's dead. Good ridden. How fucking entitled is Tony to be like, oh, either things happen? And she's like, okay, it makes sense. Like, yeah, what? No problem. It's, yeah, infuriating. Yeah, because Tony shows up to say that he needs.

her forgiveness and he intends to go to the cops to turn himself in and she's like no don't do that i love you let's run away together so they form a plan to flee cut to the jets who are dealing with the aftermath of riffs death they're sad they're angry they sing a song about how they have to be cool and keep a level head this is i'm interested to talk about this because the dancing is funny to me. Like, it does feel like a very, like, a dance sequence interpreting white masculine repression, question mark, something like that.

I think I like it, but it's weird. It's very long. It's very long. I think it's one of the longest numbers that I felt like kind of was like, I get it. I was like, okay. Move it along. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, because there's also the scene right before this, I think the character's name is baby. John or something? Oh yeah, like the comic book kid? Yeah, yeah. And then another character approaches him. Baby John has been crying, but he like brushes it off. Like, no, I got to be tough. I don't want the guys to see me like this. Yeah. So he like regains his composure and then they meet up with the rest of the jets. But yeah, I think there's very much a like we have to suppress our emotions and be cruel. Right. But also I feel like we, we don't see the sharks go through a similar process, which I'm, I don't know. I'm interested to talk about that because I, I don't know. Maybe I'm overthinking it, but I was like, Be Cool is, first of all, I would rather

have cut back to see how the sharks are processing Bernardo's death because we don't really get to see that outside of Maria and Anita, which doesn't make any sense. But it also, but like in that context, I'm like, I wonder if Be Cool is like, part of why they have to be cool is because they have to preserve this very racial. informed relationship they have with the cops because the cops literally say to them we want to believe you and so it's like if they can pull off you know appearing credible to the cops it won't be that hard for them they just have to like sort of keep it together and like I don't know it just like added an interesting it's still too long but I don't know yeah no um so then that character named

anybody shows up saying that Chino has a gun and he's planning to kill Tony. So the Jets realize they have to find Tony and keep him safe. Tony, who is still with Maria, he goes off to borrow some money so that they can flee. They arrange for Maria to meet up with him at Doc's store. Anita comes in, finds out that Maria is still with Tony, even after he killed Bernardo. So Anita is like... You'll never believe it. She's upset. Yeah, she's like, what the fuck?

He killed my boyfriend. He's a murderer. You're a traitor. So baffling to me because it's like, Maria and Bernardo had a complicated relationship. He was over-exerting control over her. But I wouldn't say they had a bad relationship. Like, it was very affectionate. And it's like, contextual.

it's like she just immigrated here from Puerto Rico. So he's being very protective of her because he's like, you are my responsibility now. Like, I have to make sure you're safe in this new foreign land that we are all trying to navigate. You don't speak very good English. You know, in theory, obviously, Natalie Wood is doing it.

So like, whatever. But if we're talking realistically, if she had just gotten off the boat from Puerto Rico, she wouldn't speak very much English. And she's a child. So it's like, of course, there is tension,

but it's like not. any worse tension than like a parent with a child like that is normal tension yeah her i don't know i mean he wasn't abusive he wasn't you know hitting her hurting her harming her you know no he was just being like i mean again it's like i understand that teenagers are upset when like someone exerts control over them and fair enough but it's like not upset to their point that you would not react to their death untimely murder by the guy you're dating like because it was an accident at that When he, he murdered him, like, on purpose. Like, it wasn't like, oh, my God, there was all these knives and I accidentally knifed him.

It was like, he chose his white brethren over his love for you, to be honest. Because he wouldn't have knitized your brother. Why are you choosing him? Yes. Like, it doesn't make any sense. He chose the other person. I, uh, it's so, I mean, I think that that, that probably a lot of that is because of, like, how randomly, like this, I feel like this movie is very committed to mapping.

exactly onto Romeo and Juliet at moments where it's like, you probably should have considered the relationships of the characters and their culture and their predicament instead of just being like, well, Romeo kills Tibalt, so whatever. Like, you're like, well, people are famously bumped by that. So maybe do something. I don't know. Yes. So Anita is calling out Maria for being a traitor. But Maria is like, but I love Tony. And love is beautiful. Love conquer's all. So it's fine that I love him. Then Lieutenant Shrank shows up to question Maria about Bernardo's death. And so since Maria can't leave right away to meet up with Tony, she sends Anita to Doc's store to tell Tony that I think like Maria will just like come as soon as she can. For me, that is like the, I mean,

Rita Moreno has such incredible range in this movie. And like that, even though the Maria's behavior feels so irrational, I feel like how Anita reacts in that moment when Maria asks her to do something so impossible and so like, you know, insensitive to what Anita is going through. But you can just tell, like, you know why Anita is doing it because she doesn't want to lose another person. And it's just like it's heartbreaking. Yeah.

absolutely so Anita shows up at the store the jets harass and assault her until doc comes in and intervenes and because of what she just experienced she's like fuck you guys your monsters and then she tells a lie I also fuck Maria yeah for putting me in this position and I also think in a way she almost is also trying to protect Maria and be like I'm not going to let you be a part of this whatever this is. Like if they were so quick to do this to me, you think they're going to protect you just because you're with Tony? Like absolutely not.

So she tells a lie to try to keep everyone safe, her loved ones safe and to try to kind of put an end to this whole thing. Unfortunately, it backfires. But she tells the Jets to tell Tony that Chino found out about Tony and Maria. And so Chino killed Maria. Doc relays that information to Tony, who is devastated, so he goes out into the street. He's flailing around. But then Maria, she's able to come outside.

So she sees him and they're like running toward each other. But before they can embrace, Chino shows up and shoots Tony. Maria is, of course, distraught. Tony dies in her arms. The jets and the sharks have all gathers. gathered around and Maria calls them out for their needless hate and violence. She threatens to kill them all and herself. But then the cops show up and the movie ends with the Jets and the Sharks seemingly putting

aside their differences and helping to carry away Tony's body together. Like at the end of the day, Akab. Yeah. Right. Right. That is that is their single unifying issue. Yeah. So that's the movie. Let's take another quick break and we'll come back to discuss. IHeart Radio is throwing it back.

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Is there anywhere where you are really wanting to start here? I do want to give some like 1950s context that I think this version, specifically the 1961 version tries to like sprinkle because it's obviously kind of in real time. but I think the 2001 or 2021 version rectifies a lot of that like lack of context and kind of just in conversation of the lack of real representation of Puerto Ricans. It's like using Puerto Ricans as this like platform to have this story versus like actually thinking about them in the context of this time. But in the 1950s, you're having the Puerto Rican great migration to New York City where it's a rapid

population growth, intense discrimination. and emergence of the New Eurekaan identity. Thank you, Wikipedia. Centred in neighborhoods like East Harlem, South Bronx, and West Side, which is San Juan Hill, which is where this story begins. But San Juan Hill is actually a very particular neighborhood. It was an original slum of Puerto Ricans and Black Caribbean. And then in this time that the movie's happening, which they portray better in the new version,

it's being demolished for the Lincoln Center. The Lincoln Center to this day sits on top of black and brown bodies. Like to be as explicit as possible, they killed lots of people to have that because they try to migrate them uptown. That's how you ended up with Puerto Ricans in Harlem, the Bronx, Washington Heights. All of that is because basically the rich people were like, we want this because it's by the park. This has to be for the whites now.

And so they like literally bulldoze over this whole slum of Puerto Ricans. and try to push them out. And I think in the new version, they addressed that a lot more of like this actual dialogue in the movie about like, why are people migrating and like the opportunities that the realtors promise them that were not true. They got to these housings and the Bronx and Washington Heights and they were filled with rats and cockroaches and they weren't built. And they literally like evicted these people saying, no, we have housing for you up there. Like just pack your stuff today and go. and there will be a house for you and then there wasn't. So it was just like this really dark time to be Puerto Rican.

And obviously they don't really highlight that in the movie. And I don't think it gives enough context as to why there's such racial tension between these two communities. And I mean, of course, besides the fact that they're brown and white, but like there is a lot of like real shit happening like in real time at this time for Puerto Ricans. Can I follow that up with context? about the conception of the stage musical. I was going to say, because it's like, I feel like the reason it's not there is because

the writers and creators probably didn't even know and didn't seem to have interest. No, absolutely. Because it's like Puerto Rican culture is kind of randomly selected for this. Yes. Yeah. So here's what happened there. So Jerome Robbins conceived of this idea for the original Broadway musical that, debuted in 1957.

From an idea from Montgomery Clift, which is just an interesting piece of queer history. They were like on vacation together. Montgomery Clift is like, I have a little idea. This like came out of Fire Island. Yeah. So, but the idea originated in 1949 where Jerome Robbins was like, okay, what if I tell a story about a Catholic family and a Jewish family living on the lower east side of Manhattan. So originally the story was called Eastside story. Yes. And it would center on the Catholics

being anti-Semitic to the Jewish characters. And based on my research, it seems like the Maria character would have originally been a Jewish girl who had survived the Holocaust and emigrated from Israel. Yes. And you're like, what do you mean? Yeah. No, literally I read that and I was like, less. Yeah. So, you know, there's that. So Arthur Lawrence gets brought on to the project to write the book for this musical. And he finishes a draft.

And then everyone who was involved realized that this play had already been written, basically, and that these same themes were explored in a play called Abby's Irish Rose. They're like, oh, man, we already did it. They're like, oh, shucks. Rats. So Jerome Robbins drops out of the project. He, Arthur Lawrence and Leonard Bernstein, who had also been brought on, they all go their separate ways for years.

The project was shelved for like five years. Cut to 1955. They come back together. They decide to work on the project again. Lawrence and Bernstein meet up in Hollywood, in Beverly Hills. Wow. And they're like, what about all these juvenile? street gangs and turf wars that we've been hearing about in the news.

Right, which is like a very popular thematic. I think that that's like a part of the reason that Nataliewood ends up in this part because she appeared in a lot of these sort of juvenile delinquent exploratory stories, which of course was like couched in a lot of bullshit. Yeah. But it was like such a popular theme in the 50s. It was such a popular theme, but also I think specifically as Kailen was knowing this meeting was happening in Hollywood.

at this time specifically, there were a lot of Chicano turf wars happening in L.A. So they were like, well, what if we flip it? Because they still wanted it to be in New York. So like, what if we, there's those new Puerto Ricans coming to New York, right? Like, what if we do that? And so I think that, like, literally was it. Like, they were just like, well, we can't have, we don't have Mexicans in New York. So what do we do about that?

So let's just, we know those new Ricans are coming. Let's get them in the mix. That is literally what happened. And that seems like the beginning and end of the consideration. Because the rest is just like stereotypes. And they weren't like not wrong. Like that San Juan Hill stuff was happening. There was a lot of like turf happening, I guess, in a degree.

But really it was just like people who like already were marginalized and forced to come to America and then being displaced in their one home that they've known that they've been able to build since the 30s when like the migration kind of started post-World War I. there's a really great exhibit. The reason I know all this is because in New York at Centro P.R. Hunter College, it's a really great Puerto Rican Studies program. It's probably nationally known as one of the biggest Puerto Rican studies programs. They have an exhibit called San Juan Hill, and they go over all these different artifacts, and they do these different interviews with families whose families immigrated from San Juan Hill. And it's just, like, really incredible, like, piece of, like, preserving archival history.

of Puerto Ricans in New York that like the governments try to wipe away and I think like they've done a little bit of like well we put up a memorial of San Juan Hill in the Lincoln Center and you're like okay but it's still or Juilliard is and it's still the Lincoln Center

like where's the money for those families about all the people you displaced yeah and it's like how frequently I mean I feel like every major city has there I mean I feel like Dodger Stadium and LA has a very very similar thing and we are seeing it happen right now to historically black communities and to unhoused people for over the Olympics. Like it's just, it's so I was glad to hear. And again, I haven't seen the movie that,

you know, maybe I'm wrong, but that like Robert Moses has even kind of like name checked in the 2021 version as like, this is the person doing this. Yeah. But I don't know. Yeah. I, I, not surprising, but just like it's so egregious how like, especially, I mean, I feel like the song America is a perfect case study for this of like presenting some valid issues but in a completely like contextless void. Yes. If we want to talk about that, let's get into it because I do have a lot of conflicting feelings about that song because I think in this lens I'm like, you know what, that song is not invalid because I do think a lot of Puerto Ricans, especially at that time who were trying to like make an honest living and like make a life for themselves in

the United States felt that way. And I think that's like a very common immigrant story of like our, you know, parents and our grandparents who had to assimilate by any means necessary to survive. And so they are like, we're in America. We're Americans now. We have to adapt. We have to conform so that we can be successful and live the American dream. But a bunch of white people wrote it.

And they did not care for the cultural context of those Puerto Ricans singing it, what it meant to them, what it was about. So it's like, it's like almost like. like a bad clock is right twice a day or whatever, you know, a broken clock is right twice a day. It was kind of like that where it's like they weren't wrong, but the way they came from was not nice versus like the reality of the situation is true. It was interesting tracing how this song has been modified over time because it's, and this isn't a full, his, my notes are disorganized, so I apologize.

is. But for, I mean, Rita Moreno has mentioned that, like, she was a reason that part of the lyrics were adjusted for the 1961 version. Originally, I also think that there's, like, a gender dynamic change in the way this song is delivered. America is originally only song with women. It's only Puerto Rican women singing to each other. And it's a character named Rosalia who exists in the movie, but far less so. who is, you know, expressing like, I really miss Puerto Rico. It's so beautiful, like feeling homesick. And then Anita is aggressively like, no. Like, it sucks. There's an ugly island, tropic diseases, like this very, very internalized hatred of Puerto Rico. Yes. It's changed for the, for the movie.

Some of the language is softened and the gender dynamic is changed. So that it's Bernardo and Anita singing to each other about this. And Anita's character is. I've seen it argued, is presented as a little more flippant and not like she is saying necessarily this is the truth, which I guess is how it was presented on Broadway. And then it's changed again for 2021 where Ariana DeBose does not disparage Puerto Rico in America, but there is still kind of this confusing amount of context. And then also in the movie, I'm curious for what you both think about this,

because Bernardo is like making some excellent points. throughout the song. Which is why I don't hate the song because I'm like, I don't think it's inherently like, I think I did not have the context of the actual Broadway lyrics and that makes more sense why people hated the broad because I'm like everything I read it was like

everyone hated the Broadway version than they love the movie. And I didn't notice how much had changed. I knew Rita was a big part of any changes that were made to the movie experience versus the Broadway musical. But I think it is a real conversation that those who are in,

immigrating have of like this like we love our homeland but those who are I think it's very common I have this conversation with my dad and my grandmother like in the podcast of like the way that they will rewrite history to make themselves not feel the pain and I think it's a part of it is the assimilation where it's like if we don't love this place if we don't make ourselves love this place then we'll be reminded of how painful it is to be here and I think that is like the push and pool between Anita and Bernardo where he, I think, is just like, this is temporary. I'm here to make money and I'm going to go back home. And I think Anita sees the reality is that like, there is no home. We're not going back. We don't have the resources. We're never going to have the money to go back.

Like, we have to make a life here. So get used to it almost. And I don't think this is a wrong narrative that was had in the 50s. I think it's very real. So yeah. Yeah. I wish. that specific sentiment that you just detailed was more explicit in the movie because the way the 1961 movie handles this dynamic of

like the conflicting attitudes between, it seems like it's all of the women being like, I love America. It's awesome. And the reasons that they cite, like the lyrics are things like, skyscrapers bloom in America, Cadillacs Zoom in America,

industry booms in America. They're talking about how they can buy stuff on credit, how they can have all these pretty dresses, all this stuff. It makes them seem like they're obsessed with like American capitalism and consumerism in a way that makes them seem kind of shallow. And then the men come in with points like, we get paid half the amount as white people do for the same labor. We are charged twice the amount to buy things than white people. The only jobs that we are able to ever get are things like waiting tables and shining shoes. We are treated like outsiders and foreigners, even though Puerto Rico is part of the U.S., but we are treated as though we are not Americans. So there's like what feels like a very

stereotypical gender dynamic almost happening where it's like, well, the girls love America because they can buy pretty dresses here. They can shop because when do you shopping. They can shop, they can drive, they can do all this stuff. And it's so hard because it's like I, as someone who's had a lived Puerto Rican experience who has Puerto Rican grandparents and parents and like my abuela is from Spanish Harlem, like born and raised in New York, during this time, like my great-grandmother and Rita Moreno's moms both immigrated the United States at the same time, which was before the big boom, but they immigrated for probably similar reasons, which was like stuff back home,

like really gendered abusive like parental or familial misogynist stuff back home and I do think there is like this idea as a woman in Puerto Rico coming to the United States that you have freedom in a way that you don't have in a very traditional machismo society especially back then so but it's like I have that context I know the writers don't have that context so it's like I am putting a lot on this song where I'm like I see the benefits. I see how this is relatable. But then it's like I get angry knowing like, well, they're actually not doing it in that same way. They're not giving it as much heart and depth of care and reasoning for those reasons. They just luckily kind of fell into it. It like improves slightly over time. Yeah, there is on the West Side Story official website, they have the 5761 lyrics

side by side. And the 57 one is just full on American propaganda. And it's white people in brown face being like America's amazing. Puerto Rican women love America and have no notes. No notes. And so the 61 one is an improvement, but I agree with you that like there is, I think, and this was something, okay, I want to quote a piece I read that was written for the Latin next project by Aurora Flores Hostos back in 2021 when the Spielberg version came out, where she's taking a look at the entire movie and how it like existed in. response to its predecessors, but specifically brings up these lyrics and says something similar, Becca, of like in the 61 movie, there are things that were gotten right, probably almost by mistake,

but that she didn't love the changes that were made to the song in 2021. She writes, quote, West Side story was written in a controversial time that resulted in a convoluted story about misplaced culture, identity, and survival in a hostile world. But it was real. That those early America lyrics were racist is true, but shouldn't we hear how America really felt about us at that time, that nascent purity of thought is what is sealed in the stereotypes. In trying to undo it, its archetypical credibility is altered, which I think is interesting. And I mean, of all three, because I did listen to the Ariana DeBose, Steven Spielberg version of America. And even though that is a version that is not openly hostile to Puerto Rico, which is

important. I still feel like no version of this song, at least that I've heard, addresses that the problem is the title of the song. There is no acknowledgement of like, you know, even though Bernardo and the men in the 61 version are making a lot of valid points as to like what their predicament is and how they're being forced into these awful situations, it's not really explicitly stated that that is the fault of what America was doing in Puerto Rico. at that time. Like there's just like this history void. Absolutely. Like they were forced to leave. Like I think there's this idea in American history and the way that it's taught about the Puerto Rican Great Migration. Like it was like this win for Puerto Rico. It's like literally America came in

through the Jones Act like wreaked havoc to this industrial revolution in Puerto Rico basically to make Puerto Rico a tax haven, strip it of all its resources. And then when the industrial boom fell and there were no longer like all the jobs that Puerto Ricans had being forced to do in this industrial revolution and then the industrial revolution fell they were like well there's no jobs in Puerto Rico

all the factories took all our jobs and now the factories are closed so what do we do we have to and then in that like America's like we feel bad they kind of like promoted this like exile of Puerto Ricans because the population had doubled they were like well we'll just make room for you

in America I guess like we have to now and there was also a lot of, and Puerto Rican historians, don't get at me. This is like a lot of jumbled history that I have in my brain. But from what I understand, also there was like a little bit of a globalization of Puerto Rico for the first time because flights were finally coming to and from Puerto Rico around this time, which also added to the boom. It was no longer by boat, but you could take Pan Am flights to Puerto Rico. And so because of America, Puerto Ricans can't live in Puerto Rico. Right.

Like that is the reality. Like America destroyed Puerto Rico and then expected Puerto Rico to just like fix itself. I don't know. Like it is in no way a one-to-one comparison for many reasons. But I was reminded as we were like looking at particularly how this movie ends where it's like both sides of this conflict have to admit that things have gone too far. Yeah. Because a white man has died. Yes.

It's like, oh, it wasn't enough when. Bernardine. No, the void of reaction to Bernardo's death is shocking, except for Anita. But it reminded me

a lot of how the conflict between the indigenous community and the Europeans is presented in Pocahontas, where it's like they're presented as equally violent and just man is inherently violent. And there is no context as to why.

Even though in West Side Story, you do get more, certainly, than you get in Pocahontas, which is a horrible yardstick, like not saying much. I feel like the, I don't know, maybe there are stuff I missed, but like the closest you get for like clear headed context is, I think it's in that first like they're making terms for the, for their brawl or whatever they call it.

No, but I think you're so right because like if I think about the context of the Puerto Rican throughout the whole movie and I do think the 2021 version does a lot to try to rectify some of this with like it's dialogue and, and, you know, the inclusion of Spanish language in the 2021-I-O-N version, but... That's not subtitled either. And it's, yeah, it's not subtitled, but in the 1961, A, obviously none of them speak Spanish because none of them can, but B, it's like... We're Greek.

Yeah, because they're Greek. But we get that whole song contextualizing why these white boys are bad boys, right? Like, why the Jets are bad, they got bad mothers, they got bad fathers, whatever. You're getting a whole context on why these white boys are bad white boys. but then you never get any context of why the Puerto Ricans are strifed. And the reality, the closest you get is the America song. And even then it's played as almost like, oh my God, the men are overreacting. They have such a beautiful life here in the United States.

But in reality, it's like these men, by these white boys, are being pushed out of their neighborhood. They also are poor. They also, and they also, I think, in this version versus the 2021-1-1-1 version, they make it a point that like the Puerto Ricans have jobs and the white boys in the jets in the 2021 don't have jobs. So they're like the Puerto Ricans are better in that one way. Let's tie it to capitalism. That's important.

Yes, yes, yes. But in this 61 version, the Puerto Ricans never have jobs, it seems like. And that's purposeful, I think. It's like to be like they're lazy. They're fighting. Well, the women do. The women do, but the men don't. Yeah.

It's confused. I mean, they're the one line that stood out to me on this. And it's so small. And in a 1,000 year long movie. is when the Jets and the Sharks are agreeing on the terms of the brawl or whatever, and the Jets are trying to explain why they're so upset. And Bernardo says, they're like, well, why did you yell at our friend today? He's like, well, why did you start picking on me and everyone I know the second we got there?

And then they start shouting slurs. And so it's like, it is in there, but it's so fleeting. Yeah. And spoken by actors in Brownface that you're just like, well, it didn't happen. There was one quick, I mean, there was so much written about the legacy of this movie and we'll include a bunch of, please drop your links in the Zoom because there's so much that I know we can't possibly touch on all of it, but there was a really interesting essay I read from

2017 by a writer named Yoraspi about how West Side Story, I think, Becca, as you were alluding to earlier in the episode, sort of became a lot of. non-Porter Rican people's first introduction to Puerto Rican culture in a way that is still echoed in culture today, even though it was written entirely by white people that weren't even able, that like, you know, whatever, Robert Eggers style wouldn't even go to the library. Yeah. To figure out like what was, at least Robert Eggers went to the library once in his defense. At least he did.

Well, West Side Story was the first large-scale Hollywood movie to even acknowledge the presence of Puerto Rican people. in the mainland of the U.S. Yes. So in this essay, I think what Yoroswapi is arguing here is that there's like an undeniable cultural impact, but also that its existence and how it is like talked about is like the first mainstream acknowledgement of Puerto Ricans in like white America is that it served to erase a lot of existing Puerto Rican art that was being made in New York at this time. So she wrote specifically about a play that debuted and was very successful in the U.S. in 1953,

so pre-West Side Story, by a Puerto Rican playwright named Renee Marcus that was called La Caretta, the Ox Cart, and was prior to West Side Story sort of positioned to be the most successful Puerto Rican work stage in America at the time. But then West Side Story came out, and it kind of faded into the background. It didn't receive a major adaptation. And then West Side Story became white America's main association with Puerto Rican culture. And, and yeah, I was able, I mean, I think the only, have we discussed this already? The only Puerto Rican cast member in the original Broadway production was also Anita? Was Chita Rivera?

We have not discussed this, but I do have notes on this because, okay, Rita Moreno in her memoir is a little shady bitch and I love it. She's very much like, I think she's a product of her time in this way where it's like women were forced to compete against each other at every facet. So I feel like every old Hollywood woman she mentioned, she kind of has to do like a little dig to be like, a little jab. But I'm better. And also sometimes it's just like whoever lives the longest gets the final word. Exactly. And that too. And so she did give a little jab at Chita Rivera because Chita is half Puerto Rican, half white.

I can't remember her mix of white immigrant. but is halfway and she was the original yes in the Broadway and apparently she was up for doing it but then in the movie you mean yeah for the movie uh Rita Moreno then studied her ass off and like went to all these different productions and like did dance classes for like two months and also had marlin brando call and was like can you get Rita Moreno in this movie because they were also talking to marlin brando for Tony and it didn't end up helping at all like the marlin brando but Basically, she ended up becoming the shoe-in for Anita, and she was just like, ha, ha, ha, I beat Cheetah Rivera off of it. And she was like, and Cheetah must have been so upset because her husband was in the movie.

Because her husband is the other main jet, not RIF, but the other one that, to me, looks like Joey from Friends. Oh, yes. Yes, I know exactly who you're talking about. That's action. Yes. So that was like Chita Rivera's actual husband in real life. And so she was like. She was like, yeah, it must have sucked that she wasn't RIP anyways.

Yeah. But. Wow. I love a memoir. But that's my my Chita Rivera note. But yeah, I mean, that is beautiful that, like, that is the, it seems to be that is the one role that the Puerto Rican gets to play. Because, like, obviously, R.

Anna de Boz is Puerto Rican Dominican, which brings us back to, like, the Maria discussion. You know, I was a little disappointed when I saw Rachel Zegler got the Maria. I understand why she did. because she was the right age, obviously the right vocal range, incredible talent, but she's not Puerto Rican. And I'm like, when will we get to have a Puerto Rican Maria? You know, she's half white, half Colombian. And I'm like, and she's still half white.

And that's not to say Rachel hasn't been a great advocate for colorism and media and all that stuff. But I'm like, it is just like this Hollywood thing where it's like, when it comes to Latinos and Puerto Ricans in general, we never get to be the lead. even if you go like in the heights. Same year, yeah. That was the huge controversy, yeah, because they didn't hire Puerto Ricans

for the main role. And it's like, Lynn, we'll get there later. But, you know, I just was a little disappointed in the Rachel casting for Maria for the 2021, and I don't think she like played a good job at it because I do think you're so much more intrigued by all the supporting characters. There's so much more enticing.

There's so much more interesting than Maria and Tony. And that might just be a fault. of the musical in and of itself and not the actors. But in this 1961 version, Natalie Wood is because, as you mentioned Jamie earlier, she's a hot lady at the time. They're like, of course, she seems like a shoe. And there was like a lot of other actresses considered that were white. All of them were white.

Apparently, Rita was like roughly considered, but I, she, I think was too scared to actually be in a leading role at the time because she hadn't been in a movie in a while when she got this role. So she was like very intimidated by the idea of applying for a lead in a movie. So that's ultimately why I don't think she did it. That's what she says in her memoir. But I want to pull this quote from her memoir about Natalie Wood specifically in her role as Maria. She says, and of course it was uncomfortable for the Hispanics to see Natalie Wood play Maria,

especially because we had heard that Natalie hadn't wanted the part but had been so prevailed upon to take it that she couldn't refuse. Natalie seemed uncomfortable in her role as Maria when she was around us a rowdy, a rocious group of dancers. This may explain her non-engaging demeanor with us gypsies, which in quote from Rita throughout the shoot. It might have been helpful had we been able to bomb with Natalie, but she kept her distance. So I find that very telling. I think that was like the nicest way Rita could put that she was racist on set.

Yeah. But yeah, I think that was read in the way that her sheep or form, Maria. You could tell she did not have any care. for this character. I think that's why they're so annoying together, Tony and Maria. You're not like sold on their love story. I, yeah. And I just think it was like

this was like the most obvious fix they could have done for the 2021 version. And they didn't. I mean, I think the other thing, and this also applies to the conversation around in the heights where it's like, why are we not hiring Puerto Rican directors? Like John Chu, Stephen Spielberg,

their talent is not remotely in question. Exactly. but it feels very, very pointed and it felt, I don't know, I am still curious to see the Spielberg adaptation because Spielberg movies are great, but this was not his job to take, be a producer, contribute. And I think that we see this a lot in, beginning of the 2010s into now. I feel like it stuck out to me, particularly in how the conversation around Moano has had back in 2016 was like, sure, the directors are white men, but we've hired consultants. Yeah, we have a lot of consultants. We actually went to Puerto Rico one time. And we learned so much in our four days in

Puerto Rico that like, we're kind of good. And we hired Lynn to do the soundtrack. Was that a non-in-na? I mean, truly, I mean, it's, I mean, Lynn Manwell Miranda's fingerprints over the last decade of culture should be studied. Yeah. Because he does come up. in every single reference point here. But it's frustrating. And I mean, like, the fact that they're, that, I don't know. And I think we used to talk about this differently on this very show. But I feel like at this point, it is like, I feel like consultants are not enough.

No. It is better than what we're doing in 1961, certainly, where it is all yada yada. And even the one Puerto Rican actor in the movie is having their skin darkened, which is absurd. But, but like, you know, in the 2010s and 2020s, it's also like it's not sufficient to say, I mean, it's basically to be, you know, with due respect to the consultants whose labor has a demonstrable effect on the work. But these are the people who should be directing it. Like, you know, it shouldn't, I don't know. It's like remove the elephant in the room, which is the need for a white director or a white celebrity director in general. It's almost this way of how do I put this kindly?

Like when we think about like times up, me too, all these things, right? Whereas like we're going to like like that white pussy hat feminism right? Yeah. Where it's like no, no, no. Like we're changing things but it's like only for a certain demographic. And I do feel like this is a prime example where it's like we're hiring consultants. We're putting people of color in the roles. We're doing all these things.

But it's like you're still not letting people of color in the room. You're still not letting them actually make the work. and it's because a lot of these higher-ups do not want to dethrone themselves because they know the reality is if they start letting us in the room, then they don't get to make the work anymore and they don't want that. So they are trying to circumvent in all these ways that they can still keep their little hands on power, you know, instead of just doing the right thing,

which is like maybe the project's not for you, babe, you know? And that's okay. Like, you can still, like, Stephen's feel like you can still give money to the project. Yeah. That is a great way to support. Exactly. I don't know. I'm sure that it is like wonderful because Spielberg movies are wonderful, but it did not have

to be a Spielberg movie. And I feel like the press tour around it felt indicative of like, yes, no, I totally get it. I am famously white. But but but I did this. I did this. But I'm also Steven Spielberg. So like I did all this stuff because I'm Steven Spielberg. And you're like, okay.

Yes. And I think his whole thing was like, well, I, because I'm Steven Spielberg, could get this giant budget to do this movie. And it's like, that's true. But then you could also just, like you said, Jamie, produce it and secure the budget for them and not be the director and actually give that Puerto Rican person a chance to do this. But I think that was also indicative in the choice for doing Rachel because, like, her accent

is so bad. I didn't remember how bad her accent was until watching it again. And it just like was very similar to the Maria of 1961 Natalie Wood where it's just like, Rachel clearly speaks Spanish. I think her mom is the Colombian of the two, which I think maternal figures tend to be the ones leading language for the children and stuff. So you could tell her Spanish was authentic,

and she did great at speaking in Spanish, but I think she did not have a Puerto Rican accent. She sounded like a person trying to have an accent, like trying to sound like a native speaker of another language, and it felt very phony to me. Whereas like when you heard Ariana DeBos speak, I'm like, no, she sounds Puerto Rican. Like, whether she, Spanish is her first language or not,

you can tell she has Puerto Rican people in her family and in her home, and she studied how to speak in that native, like, Spanish first Puerto Rican accent. And that was the difference. That made a huge difference to me. And same thing with Maria. It's like, yes, I know Rita Moreno had a lot of complaints about being forced to, like, over-axon herself. But you could still tell it was Puerto Rican.

and she had to teach Natalie Wood how to have that accent, which sucks. It's like, oh, wow, you make the one Puerto Rican girl teach the person who hates her how to do her job. It's like, cool. Jesus Christ. I mean, I think there's a conversation

sort of like this going on right now, but how there is a clear pattern. And I guess I won't over pathologize it from there because I haven't, I don't have my thoughts organized about it. But how roles that are cast authentically, tend to only be in supporting roles. And then there's always a degree to this day of, you know, even though we are not seeing brown face in movies now,

we're seeing colorism. And I feel like that sort of speaks to part of what you're talking about with the Rachel Ziegler casting. And the fact that, I mean, even in like this year's Oscar nominee lineup, you really only see people of color that are strong contenders in supporting categories, which has been true for a very, very long time. And is like, I hadn't even connected this until we started recording, but like the part of Anita is like,

I mean, that won both Rita Marino and Ariana DeBos their Oscars, but why are they not considered credible to be the lead? And it's like, why they not consider credible? And then the fact that they still both like after did not get the work credit that like a person who would win the leading actor role absolutely would. Like if Timothy wins and even if he doesn't win, he's going to get a book for a gazillion more projects coming in 2017. He's set for life. He's set for life. He's been set for life. But it's like, and I know Ariana DeBose is kind of an annoying figure from what I understand in the media a little bit.

She's a little corny. I like to, I like her song. She's just a theater kid. Angela Vassad did the thing. Yes. She's just a theater kid and we have to let, you know, let her be. But, you know, she hasn't had a serious role since then. No. And that's exactly what happened to Rita Marino.

Like for years she didn't work after winning that. Years. There's a similar pattern with awards categories where I feel like it's a more general marginalization, but like you'll rarely if ever see a woman or a person of color win in director, they'll win in screenplay. And like there's like all of these like little negotiations that it just feels like the industry like needling at marginalized people. And yeah, West Side Story is frustrating.

in case study for that because you're totally right. Like Rita Marino has spoken extensively about how she struggled to find parts. Because then they just wanted a typecaster in this specific type of role, like a bad girl Latina, like a gang affiliated Latina girl. And she's just like, I chose this role, which is heartbreaking because she chose this role from what I read in her memoir and just like all the research I did after watching the movies. She chose this role because it was very authentic to her. She was like, I chose this role because it was a Puerto Rican woman speaking her mind.

you know, fighting back against patriarchy with her partner, you know, standing up for herself, you know, I related to her a lot. I did not want to be typecast as this gang girl, and then that's what happened. And it's like, and the reason she won the Oscar for that performance is because she saw

the authenticity in what she could bring to the role and brought her whole self to that role. That doesn't mean she wanted to be a gang woman, because it wasn't about being in a gang, it was about being Puerto Rican. But the white people saw it as her being in a gang. And you're like, wow, you guys like our raises no matter what like you loved a role because she was

Puerto Rican not because she was good at being in a gang but you guys refuse to see the nuance in that yeah and then Jamie you alluded to this already but that Rita Moreno her skin was darkened along with the white actors who were in spite of her vocal protest against that like it wasn't yeah like she was vocal about it at the time and they and they were like they're like how are they going to know and it's like well I guess fair in the sense that you guys didn't hire a single Puerto Rican. Right. The call is coming from inside the house.

And the answer is not brown face. That's the thing. The production clearly sees Puerto Rican people as exactly one type. And they look exactly one way, ignoring the racial diversity within the Puerto Rican community. Because Rita Moreno is pretty light-skinned. They were like, well, you don't look Puerto Rican enough. And so they put brown makeup on her and put her in brown face, essentially. Which, like, Rita Moreno has stated, I don't have the exact quote, but basically along the lines of, like, Puerto Ricans come in all shape, sizes and colors.

Like, it is, and that's what she told them. She was like, look, Puerto Ricans are all types. So, like, it's okay if, you know, the cast of Puerto Ricans looks different. But like you're saying, Kailen, they were like, well, we can't conceptualize an othering if there's not a. clear othering, which is that y'all are brown and they're white. Right. They decided that like there is a Puerto Rican color to be. Yeah. Which is just, I don't know. I don't know how she survived the experience.

I'm, you know, glad that she still feels at least comfortable and proud enough of the work that she's, you know, making appearances. But it's, it's interesting tracking her relationship to the material from 61 to 21 to 21. as well, this sort of transitions into a different part of the discussion, but around the assaults and attempted rape of Anita's character, where Rita Mariano spoke extensively, has spoken extensively over the years about how triggering that shooting that scene was for her because of triggering memories of her own assault by a Hollywood agent. I don't think that there's more specific information about that. But being assaulted by an agent when she was a teenager and that shooting that scene in the early 60s was deeply traumatic. This scene has been a topic of discussion understandably for the entire history of this production.

As recently as 2020, there was, I don't know if it was a Broadway or off Broadway staging of it, but that it was being staged very violently to the point where it was upsetting to audience. and they had to dial it back in 2020, which is pretty absurd. And then in 2021, that Rita Moreno plays the character of Doc's, his wife, who, again, I haven't seen it, but I know that she, her character intervenes in the way that Doc intervenes in the original film.

Rita Moreno intervenes in what, I mean, and you can both speak to it better, but is a more, an even more aggressive version of that scene. Yeah. Yeah, what did you think of that? I'm glad you brought this up because I actually have very frustrating thoughts about this

about the way it was portrayed in the 2021. I'm like, okay, Rita, this role was very, very, very hard for you. It's something you have noted in multiple interviews in your memoir about how violent this role was, how triggering it was for you. How come you didn't get it cut

from the 2021 version? outstanding to me. I feel like it was more violent in the 2021 version. It was very hard to watch. I had a really hard time with it. I think if she was going to rewrite history in the way that she did for the 21 version, which she like comes too late. They've already roughed her up and she basically is just like, what are you guys doing? And then Anita goes, you're a traitor, you know, and she does her big moment of being like you're actually the traitor you you know look at you like supporting these men and then she's like delivers a line about how like maria was you know murdered when she wasn't i'm like i feel like if we were to perfectly repurpose a scene yeah rita could have come in sooner

before the men got violent and they could have still had the same scene and no one would have had to be like assaulted abused and assaulted or whatever and it was still so violent i'm like if rita was so vocal about how violent the scene was. I'm like, why was it more violent for Ariana in this? And I'm like, she has noted in interview after interview how long it took them to shoot that scene in 1961. I can only pray and hope that like in the 2021 version it did not take as long. Because if it did, I'm sure that was really hard.

And that there were like coordinators or which I'm sure there weren't in the 60s. Exactly. And it's, I don't know. I was a little disappointed rewatching it being like, yeah, considering read, was so upset about this scene, I'm surprised they didn't do more to change the scene while keeping it contextually

works within the film. I don't think it would have been that hard. I mean, I was confused to read that as well because I think that, like, whatever, in the context of the story, we are, like, Anita has to realize once and for all that, like, this is not a safe environment for Maria.

Like, we talked about to the point where, like, this white gang does not have a second thought about assaulting a Puerto Rican woman and does not have a second thought of treating her like she doesn't matter and that Maria will likely be treated the same. But there are other ways to demonstrate that point.

And like you're saying, you can demonstrate intent without showing a graphic assault. Yeah. Yeah. The response from the character that Rita Moreno plays in the 2021 version her name is Valentina.

Yes, she's, Doc's, his wife. We never see Doc on screen. I don't think in the 2021 version. No, they just like, they show a photo of them in the back of the, like an old shot of them. Yeah. We're like, okay. But when she comes in and intervenes, her response is more heightened than what we saw Doc's response being in the 1961 version where she says, you guys are disgusting

pieces of shit. You're rapists. Yeah. So she does, you know, verbally call them out. But it was like after Ariana already got or like Anita already got roughed up. And Anita left. And then they gave her her own song. And that's like, I guess kind of what like timing wise replaced that other song that we were talking about earlier.

Okay. And I feel like this song was kind of like, I feel like they gave it to Rita, Valentina, whatever, because like she is Rita Marino. And like this was her, you know, reprising in the movie. But I just, I thought it was kind of. Anytime they add a song to a classic musical, it's like, don't. Don't do that. Don't do that. It's never good.

Yeah. It's, I don't know whose idea this was, like, I don't know how this came to be on the set of the 2021 version, but it seemed like it was maybe someone was giving Rita Moreno a chance to sort of like. Rectify that moment from before. Feel redeemed or something by the trauma she experienced in 1961. And it's like a career, like it's a career full circle. Like I don't object to her being in the movie. No, no, no. Yeah.

But the scene itself. No, the scene itself in the song itself. Yeah. Yeah. It shouldn't have happened so that we still see so much of the violence on screen. Yeah. Like I would, yeah. So.

This sort of can I know that there's, I've been recording for so long. But one of the things that I didn't or that I was like, oh, this I guess is a slight difference in the 2021 version. But again, I'm not sure. I did do some reading on the portrayal of interracial relationships in West Side Story and how there has been a fair amount written about that over the years. Oh my God, I have so many tabs, so many tabs, so many tabs. Okay, or basically just to say that like it reinforces, you know, and it makes sense to me in the time it was written, but like it, you know,

reinforces the idea that interracial relationships are doomed. The point that I honestly hadn't considered that I want to make sure I'm getting the shouting out the name of the writer. Olivia Edmonds-Diaz-Diaz wrote this in bitchflix.com. Great name for a website. But during a feature they were doing on how interracial relationships have been portrayed on film, obviously the first issue is this is not actually an interracial relationship we're looking at. It's two white people and one is in brownface. But she also mentioned like, she's like, I'm a huge fan of West Side. story like I you know I grew up with a lot of love for it but she brought up something that hadn't

occurred to me which is in I feel pretty she was like I internalized that as like Maria has never felt pretty before because a white man has never called her pretty. Ding-Din-Din-Ding. Really struck me. I felt so I was like yeah, duh, Jamie and how and yeah that their relationship is portrayed as you know just fully doomed. Again, I feel like that little wedding mannequin scene. I don't know. Like I think I think it's sweet. I guess all I was trying to get at is in the 2021 version Rita Moreno and Doc being married is like, oh, a successful interracial relationship exists in this world. And that's nice. But then it's almost like twisted because when that scene

happens and Anita runs into Rita, she's like, you're a race traitor. She's like, you chose them and look at where we're at. Look at how they treated me. You are supporting all of these white boys in your shop while they abused me and then she leaves and it's like yeah Rita has her moment Valentina has her moment after to tell those boys what's up but it's like not when it mattered you know so it almost still is having this conversation where it's like does interracial relationship works and you know it does every story is different you know there are white people that care about people of color like you guys you know so it's not like they're all doomed but i don't think in this 2021 adaptation they also created that dynamic.

I think they were still like brown people and white people. This doesn't work. Right. It's like it's kind of impossible if you're building it on Romeo and Juliet to be like, it's going to work out like it famously doesn't. Yeah. But yeah, I guess just to acknowledge that dynamic as well as in the same piece talking about sort of the virgin horror tropes that are present within Maria and Anita.

I'll just quote from the piece really quick. a quote of the two featured Puerto Rican women, Maria is the virgin trope to Anita's whore trope. Maria's virginity is emphasized to make her a safe choice for Tony, lest our white knight be swept into a quote-unquote dirty Puerto Rican's bed. One obvious manifestation of this is her white dress for the dance. Despite Maria's wishes for a shorter red dress, like her role model Anita, Anita ensures Maria's virginity by keeping the dance dress white and at a respectable length. Anita's hard work pays off as the white knight Tony only has eyes for Maria who visually stands apart from the crowd. So again, not something that I feel like is at the fore. I do at least appreciate that even in the writing, at least of the movie, it sounds like Anita is portrayed somewhat differently in the original Broadway production.

And I think that both of these characters are written with love. And like there's certainly, I mean, Anita is played with such care and love by Rita Marino that I feel like you can almost kind of miss that that is like very much a dynamic that exists. Yes, I think because Rita is such an incredible actress and she plays a role with such a nuance. And she is honestly like she steals a show. She is so magnetic. You forget that she's supposed to be a horror, I guess, in complex. because like if you are looking at the movie at large right it's like they're not married they make it at such a point that like bernardo and anita are together and they're not married

she's talking about having sex after the fight which i thought was funny she's like bernardo gets so horny after a brawl you're like sure and then they show her putting on lingerie and it shows many scenes they're the only couple that like has a kiss and like are romantic to one another but it's like Rita does such a good job you're just in love with them i'm like i'm just I'm rooting for Anita and Bernardo. I find their love story compelling. Best couple in the movie. Yeah.

And then I will say this about, okay, I'm watching the 1961 version. I'm like, everyone's ugly except for Rita Marino. I'm like, wow, everyone is ugly. I'm watching 2021. I'm like, all the Puerto Ricans are hot. I'm grateful that in 2021, they were like, hot people will be in this movie. And every, you know, most people were hot. We're not going to say Ansel Elgar is hot because he sucks and he's canceled.

No. But I will say Bernardo in 2021, hot. Hot. I loved Ariana and Bernardo together. And Ida and Bernardo together. Hot. Hot. Hot.

Yeah. Incredible. I want to go back to the depiction of the jets and the sharks real quick. Obviously, the animosity between them largely stems from the jets being racist toward the sharks, and the sharks not standing for that treatment. But there's also societal prejudice against the jets, because even though they are white, Europeans, they are the children of immigrants from European countries that at the time were stigmatized in the U.S. So it's people of Irish, Polish, Italian descent. And obviously,

the discrimination they experienced pales in comparison to the racism that the Puerto Rican characters would have experienced, the racism that black and brown people in general have always faced throughout the U.S. and elsewhere. But what the movie is, doesn't seem to acknowledge at all. What I think the 2021 version could have maybe done more of, but doesn't really seem to do is that it's these two

feuding groups of poor men, right? And we know that what usually is happening here is that it's poor white people buying into the propaganda that the reason that they're poor and miserable is because of immigrants from other places stealing their child. stealing their jobs. Yeah. Yeah. Again, this is not explicitly said in the movie, but this is like

the context for why these things tend to happen. Poor white people buying into the propaganda that the American empire has been pushing for a very long time so that they will target their frustration and anger against people of color and immigrants instead of fighting the people they should be fighting, which is obviously the rich ruling class. And like, that seems to be the basis of the brawl between the Jets and the Sharks, none of the adaptations seem to be... Well, I feel like most movies are like not able to just say ACAB.

And also to some extent, I do think like, I don't know, while it would be awesome to see a multiracial coalition that unites to ruin the cops, I mean, I think we're seeing attempts at that right now in Minneapolis and it's really, really exciting. But it is very rare. And was for 1961, soft impressed at how the cops, I mean, the cops are more portrayed as like, oafish violent versus murderous violent in this, which I think is a very Hollywoodified like cop with a donut kind of deal. Especially at that time.

Totally. Yeah. But I did appreciate how like Officer Shrek and Officer, like how America and Officer Kruppke are like numbers. that are kind of in conversation with each other, because they're talking a lot about how institutions view these groups respectively. And like, Officer Shrek literally says, at one point, I've got a badge, what do you have? He's like, I know it's a free country, but actually it's not and get out of here. And he kicks, he kicks the sharks out of the, out of the soda shop and hangs out with the white gang and says,

guys, look, I'm rooting for you. You just got to work with me. And that is like a dynamic that very, very much exists, that it would, I was kind of surprised and didn't fully remember is just like pretty explicitly stated. Yeah. Basically every single time that character appears on screen, he is like, I hate all of you, but I hate the Puerto Rican gang much more. So if the white gang can just like lay low enough, I will not give you trouble.

Yeah, you don't bother me. I won't bother you. Exactly. Which is like a tacit understanding that exists between a lot of bodies of power. I've watched enough Chicago PD. Yeah. It's like, it is a real thing. And I don't know, like, especially in an over-the-top musical based on a Shakespeare play, it was not refreshing.

But it was like, oh, that is like a weirdly grounded element of this movie. And that, you know, we see that the jets are openly racist, like, constantly. And in Officer Kruppke, you do get some context for, like, the jets are aware of how the cops view them and almost play that to their advantage sometimes to play to the cops kind of like foolish like they they they're making all of these racist assumptions about the sharks but with the jets they're like oh well their parents are all these classist assumptions of like their parents are because I guess I was not entirely sure I think I maybe interpreted it more as like sarcasm from the jets maybe I'm wrong but that they're they're saying like oh all of our mothers are junkies all of our mothers are junkies all

of our fathers are drunks. Like we're mentally ill. We should be institutionalized. But I guess I interpreted that as them stating what the cops think of them, not what they're actually like. And we don't really get much background for what anyone's home life is like in this. So it's kind of hard to tell. But we know that like Maria comes from a very loving home. Like we're not really led to believe that the struggle has to do with an abusive household that has to do with poverty and oppression. And so I don't know. It's not like a great portrayal of cops,

but it wasn't as like reflexively defensive of cops. It wasn't pro cop, which is good. Like inherently good that it's not pro cop. Yeah. There are two rivalries in the movie. One is the sharks versus the jets. And the other one is the sharks and the jets versus the cops. And it's like you guys, if you guys just use like 10% more,

your brain you guys could have united on this front but instead you guys are like well we still got to kill each other and run away from the cops like yeah like no kill the cops kill the other come on um speaking of the officer cruppie song which has a couple lyrics that are transphobic or queerphobic in some regard yeah something like my sister wears a mustache my brother wears a address, whatever that's supposed to mean. Very, like, of the time transfer, where it's like almost like incoherent. You're like, well, Caitlin, are you getting into that character? Because I actually don't have a lot.

Yeah, so I do want to talk about anybody's. Yes, we should. I don't have a lot of context. And I'm actually, I would love to hear what you guys found out about them because I'm also lost. Here is my take on the matter. So this character is portrayed quite differently from the 1961 film adaptation and the 2021 film adaptation.

The way this character is framed in 1961 is that anybody's is a woman who wants to be a member of the Jets and she's... A tomboy. Queer coding, possibly, but it's 1961, so they can't explicitly say anything. The other thing was that I saw that

because this is not a character that's mapped on a Romeo and Juliet character, so everyone was like, who the hell is this? It was like said that at one point there was someone near the top of production for the Broadway show who I had unfortunately I'm not a slate plus subscriber. So now now the article's paywalled. But there is a great essay in Slate by Isaac Butler that was published about what we're about to discuss how West Side Stories anybody's went from a tomboy to a trans character. but that this character's origin appears to be that there was a Butch lesbian who was at the top of production and it was almost like an acknowledgement for her within the space of the play. But the origin of anybody's remains somewhat mysterious.

And the characterization of the character is quite vague in the 1961 movie. Now in the 2021 version, Anybody's is more explicitly identified. as gender queer, trans mask, played by an actor named Iris Manas, who is non-binary and transmask. There's a particular scene in the 2021 version where the Jets have been arrested and they're waiting at whatever, like the precinct to get booked. And they're harassing anybody's. One character in particular, I think it's the action character. Again, I lose track of almost everybody. One character in particular is harassing anybody's in a very queerphobic way saying like,

you're a freak, you're a girl, stop pretending to be somebody that you're not. And then anybody's responds repeating several times, I'm not a girl, I'm not a girl, I swear to God I'm not a girl, implying that this is a trans mask character. And I feel like it was handled in a way that felt appropriate for the time that this movie was set. You know, it's not like they're using like super modern language. did you ever say Super Mario? Super Mario language. Oh, that they would.

But no, like they weren't using, you know, the modern language and nuance that we have to discuss gender and genderqueerness. Because this is set in the 1950s, the character does have a small arc, which you see both in both versions where at some point toward the end, anybody's comes in and gives the jets of help. piece of information. And then the character responds by saying, like, you done good, buddy boy. Yeah. Which carries more meaning, I think, in the 2021 version where a character is saying, like, I see you as a- I'm not a girl.

As a mask person. Yeah. I don't think it comes from the same character who was harassing anybody's earlier. Did it need to? That's up for debate, but... Because they all kind of were harassing them, though. So it's like, you know. That's true.

I don't think it matters which character comes from because it's like the group itself was being disrespectful. And this was like the group accepting them. Yeah. And another element of that character, and I'm only speaking to the 61 version, that I thought was, I guess like what, yeah, particularly when the character was being framed more as a tomboy and possibly queer coded, is that even though you saw how any. buddies was struggling and was being constantly dismissed within this hypermasculine group. And you feel for them, they are also not allied with a woman as she's being assaulted. They are, I think as we see happen all the time, allying with whiteness before other women and before they ally with women of color.

And I don't know how like intentional that was because anybody is very much in the room participating in the harassment and assault of Anita in the 61 version. Yeah. And I think in the 2021, I can't remember, honestly. I can't remember either. Because they did in the 2021 version as a way to like create women solidarity. They did like kind of harass the Jets women's two and like force them out of the room. And they were like, you get out of here.

And the women were like, no, don't hurt her. Don't hurt her. And it felt a little random because you were like, well, in reality, I actually don't believe you guys would. In 1950, would this be, like, I just, I don't know. Sometimes I, again, that's, I think it's a, it's a sort of a thing that we're trying to figure out culturally of like, yeah, women can be wrong. Like, you know, and in fact, are constantly, and it's okay to show that on, it's not misogynist to show a woman being hateful or wrong. Yeah, because it was like, she was hateful to Anita up until the moment they started getting violent. And then all of a sudden,

it was like, wait a second. And it was like, wait, you're going to hurt a woman. I can't just, like, spit on her and call her spick. It's like, it's like, And you're like, wait. Well, if you were willing to call her a spick, then you probably put on the pink pussy hat. Yeah. Wait a second. No. You're like, hmm.

Like, I don't think you would care if she's getting hurt if you were willing to call her a slur. And obviously it's like I'm not encouraging like hate crimes between women to be shown on screen. No. But I do think that sometimes it feels a little like defensive and dishonest to, especially when it's like specifically being like a white woman in this situation would do the right thing. because, you know, that's, that is historically, usually not true. It really is not the sure thing that it's often presented as. Yeah.

Yeah. I think, is there other stuff that, that y'all wanted to touch on? I was like, this is, I think I've gone through everything in my gigantic encyclopedia. Yeah, I'm like looking at my notes. I feel pretty thorough. The last thing I want, and this doesn't need to be a long conversation or anything, but I do. want to point out the misogyny. I mean, we've already been talking about it,

but like just the misogyny that the men from both groups displayed toward the women, I feel like it's focused on a little bit more with Bernardo, where there's a part where he's talking to Anita and she's like, choose between me or the war council meeting. and he says something like back home women knew their place or like with Maria again Bernardo he's being protective he's being perhaps overprotective of Maria she's feeling

controlled by him and he says something like well when you're old and married and have five kids you can tell me what to do but right now it's the other way around yep and Anita steps in and she's like, well, you know, she's, she's free to do whatever she wants because this is America where everyone is free. Which is a little bit what I was talking about earlier, where it's like I do think there's this idea. I mean, I found that very truthful in a way where there is this ingrained, really toxic machismo, even to this day in Puerto Rico that we're fighting as women in Puerto Rico, that we do not have

time to get into all the politics of that. But them aside is still very high in Puerto Rico. of Puerto Rican men who are not working on themselves and liberation of Puerto Rico and things like that, they are harming women. And I don't think Bernardo was harming the women in his life, but I don't think what he said is inaccurate to a family dynamic of a Puerto Rican family. Sure. Right. Because multiple things can be true. These characters can be the recipient of prejudice and racism and then they can also turn oppression on to the people around them. And that like there's very few cultures that patriarchal abuse and control is not a facet of.

Right. And worth noting that this happens with white Americans all the time is that they will use that as an excuse. They will be like, well, this group of people are really horrible to women or they're really horrible to gay people. And that's why it's okay to genocide them. That's like the Israel playbook. Yeah. No, literally. And it's like, Yeah. Well, that doesn't mean you deserve to be prejudiced towards everybody. And it's also like, well, look in the mirror, babe. Like, you're like, you would also kill me. Like, what are you talking about? It's like, we saw the fight scene and they just shoved all the women out of the room and basically assaulted them too. So it's like, right. You guys are being just as bad to women. The hypocrisy. Yeah. It's staggering. You're like, you're like, okay, we get it. Everyone hates women. Next. Next. Like, it's, yeah. I don't know. Yeah. I, I don't know. Yeah. I, I, it's. It's. It's. It's. It. It's. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It If the movie was trying to make me dislike Bernardo, I would say, like, I've found him, like, you know, he was being overly controlling. And, like, I understand as a teenager why you would be frustrated with him. But in the context of the fact that Natalie Wood is, first of all, supposed to be Puerto Rican, supposed to be a teenager.

And like you said earlier, Rebecca, is very new to a country that Bernardo is kind of seeing right through the promise of the American dream. and doesn't want his sister's optimism and naivete taking advantage of, which it is, like, they can't make me hate Bernardo. Yeah, right. Well, and this is, I think, contextualized a little bit more in the 2021 version where it seems to be pretty widely known that the reason Tony is no longer a member of the Jets is because he went to prison for some time for beating and nearly killing a brown person. Yeah. Oh. Oh my God.

The Jets had already gotten into a fight before. They had had a rumble, maybe not with the shark specifically, but like they had a rumble. It was a different. A different gang. Yeah. And they, he beat a man to death. And then in this 2021 version, in the rumble, he almost beats Bernardo to death. But then Bernardo still ends up dying by knife instead. Right, right, right. So the Jets had to be like, stop. Right. Right. So the backstory that like Tony. almost killed a non-white person. It seems to be something that like everyone knows about. And so Bernardo is like, he, like this man is racist. Yeah.

He is violent toward people who look like us. Maria, stay away from him. And I think Bernardo even brings up in the 2021 version where he's like, hey, like you went to prison and now you think you're cool with the Puerto Ricans because you were in prison with us, like kind of something to that nature in the rumble when they were like head to head and like Bernardo was like going at him and was trying to like provoke him I guess but it was like he's not wrong it's like oh you went to prison and you like became reformed I guess like now you're not racist like Bernard didn't believe that well yeah it's just like that also

implies that prison works yeah yeah I didn't know that was an adjustment for 2021 I mean it sounds like 2021 was an attempt and it wasn't an attempt yeah And it was not a perfect attempt, but... I gotta say, I haven't been really effectively sold of like, well, I gotta run. I gotta run and see this thing. Crawl, don't walk. Well, I think there were some scenes that were great,

but I do think there was a lot left to be desired. And I think a huge eyesore of it is the Ansel Algoard of it all, because it's like, you can't be like, we're trying to like fix the racism of this movie and fix all these things of this movie and then hire predator. Yeah. And then I do remember the, like, like whole, the whole like Rachel Zegler, as she so often is, being like, how dare you speak to this man and press appearances?

And I was like, that is not her call to make and she's a kid. Like she's being forced to make appearances with a predator. Which question the system and not the teenage girl for once. With the predator situation, I'm like, you guys hired a kid and he is like 28. It's like we couldn't have fixed that either. We couldn't have hired another kid. I can't. I just can't.

The, yeah, I mean, we still live in hell. It's just a different now. But yeah, that was pretty much all I had. Anything for me? Oh, my God. I mean, we could keep going. I know, I'm like, again. But we've been on long enough.

Yes, yes. I think we need to liberate ourselves from, from my last thing, it's a really quick, really silly one. But I was going to propose an alternate title for the movie. Oh, hit it. Which is Shark Tale. or perhaps sharks tail shark's tail shark's tail a shark's tail an extremely shark's tail movie an extremely sharky movie wow i love it thank you perfect no notes yeah great well that brings us to the bechdel test oh god i know i was like shit i forgot about this part wait hold on okay i hate

i will say we were all on it today except for the podcast um let's see i think that the okay i'm gonna check i'm gonna go to bectal test dot com as we so often do. We forgot to do. I don't think they do. Here's what I've gathered. Maria and Anita, they talk about a dress. I actually do think that the dress,

even though it is sort of laying out the Madonna horror dynamics between them, the dress conversation isn't a passing conversation. It is supposed to be telling us how we are perceiving Maria. She wants to grow up, but she's not going to be allowed to grow up. She still has to wear this girlish white dress. I feel like that is actually significant enough to warrant a pass. It is not a great pass. Yeah.

I think it has a pass. No. Because even like the song where Maria is singing about feeling pretty and all of her friends are there. And almost everything is still in the context of like, I feel pretty because a white man told me I'm pretty or just like very explicit conversations about either Tony or Bernardo. But yeah, I think there are at least a few brief exchanges where, yeah, you could say it passes. But what about the Bechtelcast nipple scale? Where we rate the movie on a scale of zero to five nipples based on examining it through an intersectional feminist lens. Uh-oh, I don't know.

It's not a high number. But I do know that a lot of people connected with this movie because it was sort of all. the representation that there was for the time. I know that this movie, both adaptations, had performances, one from Rita Moreno as Anita, that won her an Academy Award. Also shout out to her because she has eGauded. Yes. One of the few.

One of the few. But Rita Moreno was the first Latina actress ever to win an Oscar. And then Ariana Dubos, who also won for playing Anita. was the first Afro-Latina actor to win an Oscar, as well as the first openly queer woman of color to win an Academy Award for Acting. Which is amazing. And also, that should be rewarded in their subsequent careers. Yes.

Precisely. So, you know, this is a groundbreaking movie in some ways. But obviously, as we've talked about, still relied on many stereotypes, the nuances that could have been present in discussions about class and race and all the other things that the movie examines just doesn't do it well because it was conceived of by white non-Portarican Americans. So didn't really hit the mark. I'm going to give it one nipple with all of that in mind. Yeah, I guess I'll go one and a half for no reason at all. I would just because I know we have to wrap up

I'll go one and a half I will give one to Rita Moreno and I will give the other half to Chita Rivera Yeah Slay I will give it also one and a half Nipples because as much as I grew really fond of the movie

Revisiting it I do think the 1961 version You know still represents women pretty poorly I Wish all the best for Rita Moreno because she did not deserve all that bullshit and all my nipples go to Rita Marino. Yes.

And best of luck to her and her recovering from Marlon Brando. Ultimately, this was about Marlon Brando's penis somehow. I mean, it really is. And that is a conversation I want to have with you guys offline. I can explain this. Please. Well, Becca, thank you so much for joining us in this discussion. Thank you for having me.

Yes. Congratulations on the new. show we're so excited yeah where can people listen plug away my first episode will be out February 3rd this past Tuesday so listen go check it out this first episode is like very endearing to me because it's like a very intimate look at my life and my identity and like why I decided to do this project why how I came to be why am I questioning about my Puerto Ricanness so yeah check it out give me feedback If you are Puerto Rican, I want to hear from you, email us at welcome to a barrio at gmail.com. You can find me on all platforms you listen to a podcast.

You can follow our Instagram at Welcome to Abadio. My Instagram is Bex, P-E-C-C-S Ramos. And yeah, yeah, come back anytime. Thank you so much for returning. I love when we have a two-time guest and the movies could not be more different. So, yes. It is another curveball next time. I am high-low, baby.

I will also watch Hornie, but also. give you very thoughtful takes on Puerto Rican identity. It's just, she can do it all. And with that, we are going to, what, stand in the middle of a basketball court and really reflect on the events of the last three hours. Bye. The Bechtelcast is a production of IHeartMedia, hosted and produced by me, Jamie Loftus. And me, Caitlin Durante.

The podcast is also produced by Sophie Lichtenen. and edited by Caitlin Durante. Ever heard of them? That's me. And our logo and merch and all of our artwork, in fact, are designed by Jamie Loftus, ever heard of her? Oh my God. And our theme song, by the way, was composed by Mike Kaplan. With vocals by Catherine Voskrasinski. Iconic and a special thanks to the one and only Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about the podcast, please visit Linktree slash Bechtelcast. just yesterday that the Two Guys Five Rings podcast was in Paris for the Olympics.

And now we're heading to Milan for the 26 Milan Cortina Olympic Winter Games. I'm Bowen-Yang. And I'm Matt Rogers and we'll join athletes from 93 countries as Two Guys Five Rings hits the Italian Alps for the 26 Milan-Crotina Olympic Winter Games. Open your free IHart Radio app. Did we mention it's free? Search Two Guys Five Rings and listen now. In the middle of the night, Saskia awoke in a haze.

Her husband, Mike, was on his laptop. What was on his screen would change Saskia's life forever. I said, I need you to tell me exactly what you're doing. And immediately, the mask came off. You're supposed to be safe. That's your home. That's your husband. Listen to Betrayal Season 5 on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Black history lives in our stories, our culture, and the conversations we still having today. This Black History Month, the podcast, I Didn't Know. Maybe You Didn't Either digs into the moments, perspectives, and experiences that don't always make the textbook. Let me tell you about Garrett Morgan. Brough had to pretend he didn't even exist just to sell his own invention. Listen to I Didn't Know. Maybe you didn't either from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or simply wherever you get your podcast.

1969, Malcolm and Martin are gone. America is in crisis. And at Morehouse College, the students make their move. These students, including a young Samuel L. Jackson, locked up the members of the Board of Trustees, including Martin Luther King Sr. It's the true story of protests and rebellion in black American history that you'll never forget.

I'm Hans Charles. I'm in Malmobah. Listen to the A building on the I Heart Radio. app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.