The Bechdel Cast - Wet Hot American Summer with Allison Raskin

Episode Date: August 2, 2018

On the last day of camp at The Bechdel Camp, counselors Jamie and Caitlin and special guest Allison Raskin gather 'round the campfire to talk about Wet Hot American Summer.(This episode contains spoilers)For Bechdel bonuses, sign up for our Patreon at patreon.com/bechdelcast.Follow @AllisonRaskin on Twitter! While you're there, you should also follow @BechdelCast, @caitlindurante and @jamieloftusHELP Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017 was assassinated. Crooks Everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. To listen to new episodes one week early and 100% ad-free, subscribe to the iHeart True Crime Plus channel, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. I'm Carrie Champion, and this is season four of Naked Sports. Up first, I explore the making of a rivalry. Kaitlyn Clark versus Angel Reese.

People are talking about women's basketball just because of one single game. Clark and Reese have changed the way we consume women's basketball. And on this new season, we'll cover all things sports and culture. Listen to Naked Sports on the Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeartRadio apps, or wherever you get your podcasts. The Black Effect Podcast Network is sponsored by Diet Coke. I'm Joe Gatto. I'm

Steve Byrne. We are Two Cool Moms. We certainly are. And guess where we could find us now? Oh, I don't know. The iHeart Podcast Network? That's right. We're an official iHeart podcast, and I'm super excited about it. I am too. I thought Two Cool Moms

was such a fun podcast, but now it's even more funner and cooler and heartier. That's right. It's more iHeartier. I knew it. Check your heart rate. We're here at iHeart.

Yeah, you can find us wherever you listen to your podcasts or on the iHeart Radio app. On the Bechdelcast, the questions asked if movies have women in them. Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism? The patriarchy's effin' vast. Start changing it with the Bechdelcast. Hello and welcome to the Bechdelcast.

My name is Caitlin Durante. My name's Jamie Loftus. And we host a podcast about the representation of women in films. It's the one you're listening to right now. This is it. At this very second. And Jesus Christ. Go on. Well, no, I feel like we should go home. Okay, so this is our podcast about the portrayal of women in movies we use the bechdel test as a jumping off point to start a larger discussion about the portrayal of women in movies jamie let's pass the bechdel test by explaining what the bechdel test is okay so you know it's a crazy paradox what you can't describe what the bechdel test is without breaking the Bechdel test. Right, because you have to say man.

I also just said Bechdel test wrong. I didn't even notice. Okay, let's try this. Hey, Jamie. Hi, Caitlin. Can you explain to me what the Bechdel test is, please? Not without breaking it. It's like Fight Club in that way.

Or maybe it isn't i don't know the first rule of the bechdel test is that you cannot talk about the bechdel test the bechdel test and that's why this is the last episode of our podcast it's because we realized we've been breaking the first rule of the bechdel test this whole time. We just never talk about it. I thought this was fun. Well, I think that passed the Bechdel test. It did. Wow. Okay, so we're good. So now we can actually explain what it is, which is that... Thank God we can talk about men again. Thank God. I was getting very stressed out. So if you don't know already, the Bechdel test is a test applied to fictional media. It requires that a movie let's say has two

female identifying characters in it they have to have names they have to speak to each other and their conversation has to be about anything besides a man we just did that yes we did we just did that but then because I just said man what finally broke. That's where you break it. Yeah. It's tricky. It's a paradox. It really is. Anywho, so we're here with a guest to talk about a wild summer flick. She is the creator and star of Gossip, which is a scripted comedic soap opera podcast. Fun.

Alison Ruskin. Hi. Hi. Thanks for being here. Thank you so much for having me. Anytime. So we're talking about Wet Hot American Summer. Love it. Yay. It's true. I had never seen this movie. Really? Before. I've never seen, I've rarely seen any movies. Yeah, I'd never seen it before. I'd heard a lot about it. Honestly, based on the poster and knowing who's in the cast and knowing the year it came out, I assumed it was going to do way less well than I think it actually does. Like, it seems like you hear, like, was this came out in, what, 2001?

Yes. You hear, okay, a 2001 summer comedy. I don't think this is going to be a progressive piece of work in any way. Like, I don't think anything that came out that year is like whoa this is whoa like um are you forgetting about Shrek I was about to say Shrek Caitlin do we know what month this came out because Shrek came out in July and was our of course the last bit of innocence we had as a country was Shrek. Of course. Was Shrek in this year.

But anyways, Shrek is obviously a feminist text. But most movies, I would say, that came out in the early Bush administration through literally today are not progressive texts. Raunchy summer comedy is generally not good to women. That's what I meant. For sure, yes. By the way, this movie came out July 27th. Oh, wow.

Wait, this was up against Shrek at the box office. Also, this movie was a massive failure. I think Shrek won. Yeah, nobody saw this movie in theaters. Story-wise, Shrek won. Money-wise, Shrek continues to win. Yeah, this movie, Wet Hot American Summer, it was a critical and

box office failure. Huge flop, but it has since developed a cult following. And it has gotten its own TV show. Yeah, a couple different variations of it because they they've done the first day of camp Netflix series and then the 10 year reunion. Right. I think I only

saw the first day of camp one. I think same. Yeah. so what's your history with the movie my history with this movie is like i know that i love it but i don't ever remember anything about it okay you know you know those movies where you're like that's a good time but like the specifics of it right allude you like i know that at one point they go into town and get so high like past that i'm like that's a bunch of funny people. Well, it's probably because there's no cohesive story that really unfolds, so it's hard to remember what it's about. It's just a bunch of little, like, micro stories.

Which is like, yeah, that's just like the weird thing about any, like, ensemble cast is you're like, okay, so a bunch of small things will happen, and eventually the movie will end. Right. Yeah. That's what'll happen i feel like a good ensemble movie though you do have the right like the normal arc but it's because it's david wayne right so it's he's yeah he's not looking to do the normal thing no

he's such an avant-garde different artist so yeah i saw this movie for the first time in college i want to say probably around like 2005 yeah um I really enjoyed it. I thought it was really funny and really silly. It's just a silly, vaguely satirical, I don't even know quite how to classify this movie in terms of its approach to what it's about.

I feel like it's making a big nostalgia appeal. That's most of it, is the era appeal. But I also felt pressured to like it. Oh, did you? I feel like it's weird if someone says they don era appeal but I also felt pressured to like it oh did you like I feel like it's like weird if someone says they don't like this movie

sure yeah like it's like you're hip if you like it especially if you're in like the comedy community I think whereas like some of his other movies

I feel like I can be like that made no sense at all oh sure what are other movies he's made oh man he made this one with Paul Rudd and Jennifer Aniston

that was like one of the worst things I've ever seen Paul Rud rudd's quickly becoming my enemy where he went to they went to that cult and justin thoreau was in it oh i don't i don't know i do know bananas was that called wanderlust yes yes oh yes he i think directed a movie called The Ten, which I think I'm maybe the only person who saw that. And the only person who liked it. What was it about? It's based on The Ten Commandments. And it's like all these little vignettes.

Yes, he did. Caitlin, why did you see The Ten? I don't know, but it really resonated with me in a way that I can't explain. And people who had seen it, who saw me online a way that I can't explain and um people who had seen it who saw me like online saying that I enjoyed it they're like Caitlin what the freak is wrong with you as far as to publicly state that you liked it you didn't keep that to yourself you stand out for the 10 look uh please tweet at me maybe it's really good thoughts on the it's not you're the only one who saw it it's like similarly like silly and goofy like wet hot american summer but it's really good. Your thoughts on the... It's not. You're the only one who saw it. It's like similarly like silly and goofy like Wet Hot American Summer, but it's certainly

not a good movie. Right. Well, anyways, so yeah, I enjoyed Wet Hot American Summer, the film, the artistic masterpiece that it is, of course. Sure. And yeah, I thought it was really silly and funny and I liked that it's pretty much just like a goofy movie that is not taking itself seriously

it's a goofy movie? that's a different episode but is it an extremely goofy movie? is that the sequel? because that's another which is one of my favorite I think that all sequels should be an extremely and then the first movie

an extremely went hot American and extreme oh I have extreme doubts oh right I think we've talked about this before because I can't stop saying an extremely doubtful movie oh yeah yeah yeah sorry go ahead so yeah so this movie

you know it's silly and I I enjoy it I argue it has more heart than other movies that go this crazy. I agree. I think that with Coop, we're tracking him and his love for Katie. There is an emotional center to this movie. Some of the characters do care, and that's unusual for this type of broad comedy. That's true.

Mostly, I mean, I love Niles. Oh, David Hyde Pierce. God. God, I love him so much. He was one of my major childhood crushes. Really? Of course he was. I loved Niles so much.

I'd stay up every night to watch Frasier, and I had a crush on Frasier, but I knew he was so unattainable. So in your fantasy world, you had to settle for Niles? Yes. I was just like Daphne. I had to settle for Niles. I was like, Frazier, I would be so scared to talk to him.

Niles would approach me. We would get along great. We would have a marriage of convenience for years. I just, oh God, I love Niles. And David Hyde Pierce is so great. No one sees much of his work outside of Niles. Sure. I've seen him on Broadway.

Wow. Wait, in that thing about the detective? No, it was like a movie. I don't know. It wasn't a movie. It was a play. It was definitely not a movie. It was a movie.

I saw a movie. Yeah. I can't remember what it was, but he was definitely not a movie it was a movie i saw a movie i can't remember what it was but he was very good in it yeah he's the absolute best the end well speaking of not being able to pass the bechdel test sorry it's quite all right shall i do a recap of the story of wet hot american summer good luck thank you can i I recap the, can I just read off the list of names in this movie? Yes. Because it is

pretty significant in terms of like most people were either famous or became famous in the next 10 years. I don't think they were famous at the time.

I think it's Bradley Cooper's first movie. It is Bradley Cooper's first movie. It's like Amy Poehler's not quite, people on the cusp at this time.

So Janine Garofalo who was famous already, David Hyde Pierce, R.D. Niles, Molly Shannon, I think had already been on SNL. Yeah, I think so, yeah. Paul Rudd, we knew him from Clueless, Christopher Maloney, I don't know who that is, Michael Showalter. Christopher Maloney's from Law & Order,

but I don't know if it's... Oh yeah, he's the chef. Oh, okay. The chef in Law & Order. The famous show about a chef that solves crimes. I guarantee that has been pitched. Michael Showalter and Michael Ian Black from The State. Ken Marino.

Amy Poehler, Bradley Cooper. Elizabeth Banks. Early role for her, Joe Lotrullio. Judah Friedlander. And H. John Benjamin as Can of Vegetables. Right. Lots of names. Big names.

Lots of names. All-star cast. Yep. If you're white. I was like, is every white person in this movie? Yes. The loose narrative that this movie follows is that it's the last day of camp at Camp Firewood, which is a, I think, like Jewish summer camp. In Maine? In Maine.

I think in the set somewhere in the 80s. 1981. As an 80s baby myself, I'm very good at recognizing the 80s. So you listed the big ensemble cast. We follow different characters around. Each of them has like a little story arc where like Coop has a crush on this girl named Katie. They're both counselors at this camp, but she's dating Andy, played by Paul Rudd.

Also, I feel like we should point out that they're all clearly adults playing 16-year-olds. For sure. So that's a large part of the humor. Yeah. It's like when Katie's like, I feel like we should point out that they're all clearly adults playing 16 year olds. For sure. So that's a large part of the humor. Yeah. It's like when Katie's like, I'm 16. Yeah. I think I literally yelled at my television.

No, you're not. But the movie is like self-aware enough that it knows that that's a big. That everyone is a minimum 30. Yeah. There's another scene where they're like making a plan to do their like 10-year reunion at some point and they're like we're all gonna be in our late 20s by then and it's like you guys are already 35 but like it's it's a joke it's hilarious so uh we've got coop michael shell walter uh is crushing on katie who i think that's one of the few people in the

movie who didn't go on to more like mainstream success. She's done stuff. I've definitely been a big fan of hers for years cause she's so beautiful. She like starred in this like really like fun dramedy where she like played a teacher who slept with her high school student. I think I was the only person who watched that show and I can't remember the name. Oh, cool. Yeah.

Great. But she's been in stuff. Yeah. But not recently. She was also in the OG Mighty Ducks cast. Whoa. We're saying she is one of the Mighty Ducks kids, I guess. I don't know.

She was a teen. She was a teen when Mighty Ducks came out. I don't know. We got to do an episode on the Mighty Ducks. She plays Connie Moreau in three Mighty Ducks movies. Okay. There you go. Good for her.

So we've got Co got coop he's crushing on katie she's dating andy who feels very suffocated by her existing in the world um then we've got a character named victor that's ken marino he's trying to get with this girl named abby but the camp director beth played by janine garofalo was like, you gotta take these kids out rafting. So that's a whole thing. Camerino kills so many kids. But then Camerino does kill some kids. Sort of.

They don't die. Do they die? I don't know. They disappear. Doesn't one drown? He saves them. Oh no, that's Paul Rudd letting a kid drown. Paul Rudd definitely kills some kids. But Camerino saves some kids. Going to Psychon.

Back straight. Sorry. Didn't mean to throw Ken Marino under the bus. Paul Rudd, you're unnoticed. You killed a bunch of kids. Then we've got Beth, the camp director. She is interested in Henry, played by David Hyde Pierce. He is an associate professor of astrophysics,

so they're trying to learn each other's interests and get to know each other. I love them together. Oh, it's adorable. So great. Another storyline we see is Gail, played by Molly Shannon. She's the arts and crafts teacher. She's dealing with a divorce.

Women be crazy. Right, and then she gets close to a very young camper i love where that storyline is it's so disturbing at the end of the movie she marries the camera he's like 11 it's very funny the way they play it though yeah i don't know and then we've got suzy amy poehler and ben bradley cooper are producing directing choreographing choreographing yep that's how you say that a talent show which is sort of the big event at the end of this day and the end of the movie then we've got also ben and mckinley played by michael ian black they're like developing a romantic relationship they're

gay together they get married at some point in the movie. They have the hottest scene in the woodshed. I watched it I think four times. I was like oh my God. It was amazing. I've never in my life been like Michael

Ian Black is so... Well that's a lie. I used to have a crush on him when he was on I Love the 70s but also he's very hot in this movie. I was like, crazy. I mean, I'm sure we'll get to it, but I honestly think that that's one of the most progressive scenes from that time that I've seen. Yeah, absolutely agree. I feel like that whole scene, I was, because 2001, I was waiting for a homophobic joke that didn't come. It was great.

But then everyone came in a way because that scene is so hot. That's the greatest scene. I see what you mean. Okay, sure. And then there's a few like kind of more secondary characters like Gene played by Christopher Maloney. He's like the chef of the camp. He has to learn to accept himself for who he is, which is someone who fondles sweaters, humps his fridge, etc.

Good journey we've all been on. Classic. So throughout the day, you know, this stuff is happening. Everyone's gearing up for the talent show. There's like a game of capture the flag. There's a baseball game that doesn't actually happen. There's like just different little things to like fill in the time and then at the end like kind of there's no conclusion at all coop and katie i feel like they're probably the main storyline and they're the characters we meet first so you just kind of

first yeah and then like i'd say i'd say it's even with though and the professor. Oh, that's true. Because the closest we get to the straight men of the movie would be Coop and Beth. And the shot, I guess the movie ends on a shot of the two of them. So yeah, I guess. Oh, yeah. Because he's just been dumped by Katie. By Katie, which is fun. And then Beth goes, are you okay?

And he's like, yeah. And then cut to black. Cute. I thought the's like, yeah. And then cut to black. Cute. I thought the ending was really cute. So that's the movie. That's the story, if you can call it that. Okay, I have a quick story that has nothing to do with anything. There's a girl in the little science club that Niles creates in the movie.

A woman in STEM.. A woman in STEM. A woman in a young woman in STEM. Yes. I think she's like 14 or something. She's like one of the actual campers and she wears a Cure t-shirt and I guess she goes by Cure Girl. That's the name of her character. And I a year and a half ago I would always have this picture of this particular actress sent to me in a very specific episode of Law and Order. That's her, isn't it? That's her. Whoa. So I reached out to her.

I was like, because she still lives here. She's still a working actress. I was like, do you want to hang out and see if we still look alike? And so we've hung out a couple different times, and we don't look anything alike. Oh. Wait, you hung out with someone just because people thought you looked alike? Yes. So, I mean, to be, I did. Like, for the photo, or just because you thought you'd have stuff in i mean to be i did like for the photo or just because you

thought you'd have stuff in common i don't know i will i just like i never get doppelganger like i never no one ever tells me i look like anybody and then it was like this girl who in the law and order episode she's in she's 12 years old and they're like this looks like you today and that's true i've seen the photo that I can I will we'll put up the photo it does look exactly like me it's like a kid who's committed a cyber crime on law and order oh like you always do as a hacker I'm a hacker right and so I do a lot of cyber crime it makes sense our vibes are similar but it is it's like a screenshot where I every time this syndicated episode comes on I get it from like 10 different people because it's and it's all of like my aunts are like did you get a job I'm like no

a child got a job 20 years ago thanks so much anyways oh very important question when you hung out did you call it a doppel hang I'm not sorry for that it was just such a strange delivery of it because i know you're proud of it just give caitlin a high five she didn't earn i earned it anyway his wife um let's take a quick break and then we'll be back for some hot spicy discussion yeah hot discourse we'll be right back Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017 was murdered there are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere,

a podcast that unhurts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks. Daphne exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. And she paid the ultimate price. Listen to Crooks everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. To listen to new episodes one week early and 100% ad-free, subscribe to the iHeartTrue Crime Plus channel, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. I'm Buzz Knight, and I'm the host of the Take a Walk podcast, Music History on Foot.

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you'll turn that lucky break into something great. The message of the podcast is simple. Honest conversation with musicians about the music they create. Cardi Wilson. You know, I mean, Elton John picked me up and put me back in my crib when I was a toddler. It's like, that's the thing that's so cool. I've got these stories because of my life. Listen to the Take a Walk podcast on the iHeartRadio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I've been thinking about you. I want you back in my life. It's too late for that. I have a proposal for you. Come up here and document my project. All you need to do is record everything like you always do. One session.

24 hours. BPM 110. 120. She's terrified. Should we wake her up? Absolutely not. What was that? You didn't figure it out?

I think I need to hear you say it. That was live audio of a woman's nightmare. This machine is approved and everything? You're allowed to be doing this? We passed the review board a year ago. We're not hurting people. There's nothing dangerous about what you're doing. They're just dreams.

Dream Sequence is a new horror thriller from Blumhouse Television, iHeartRadio, and Realm. Listen to Dream Sequence on the iHeartRadio iheart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts and we're back hi hello it's us again it's us we'll post that photo of jamie's doppelganger who she does doppel hang out with and okay, I liked it better the second time. Oh, thank you so much. I was more confident in my delivery that time. Yeah, confidence is key. Thank you so much. Yeah.

We'll post it to our Instagram and you be the judge, Bechtel heads. Bechtel heads. Yeah. So yeah, this movie, I mean, it's like a parody satire thing, but not like a very smart one it's an extremely good movie so it it's kind of hard to take anything at face value with this movie because it's just so silly and i it doesn't really have any sort of agenda except to like just be as silly as possible i think yeah but that said i mean i think that there's there's there's stuff for us to talk about. Yeah. Let's

start with Beth. Sure. Beth is played by Janine Garofalo. She is the head of the camper, a woman in charge, dare I say? Yeah. A business owner, a female business owner. She's the boss. She is in charge. And I mean, I like her character a lot. Yeah, she's great. She seems to be generally respected. Like, even if they're not doing what she's telling them to, they still respect her. They like her. Like, she's not, like, a monster and she's not, like, a control freak or, you know. She officiates a gay wedding. Like, people like her.

She's well-liked. Right, because a lot of times you see, like, a woman in her position in media, she's, like, depicted as, like, a shrew. Like a devil wears Prada. Like, oh, my God, what a horrible bitch. What a heinous monster. I feel like especially because it's, like, an 80s movie, like, send up, that would be, like, a very easy choice for the movie to have made. And they don't, which is cool. Or, like, that she's completely incompetent.

That, too. Yeah. She's, like, a bumbling idiot. But she's like right down the middle of like great, but not like too good, like attainable. You know, like I really, I like her character a lot. Yeah. It's like she runs the camp efficiently and clearly cares enough about it that David Hyde Pierce has to purchase a book or like go to the library and get a book about running a

camp to impress her. So it's like she cares about her job, but she also gets all her teenage camps counselors high. She's officiating weddings right and left. There's a lot. I really like her. She approaches that kid, and I don't remember that character's name,

but it's like the kid who hasn't made any friends and he speaks in a robot voice. Isn't that also Michael Showalter? Or is that a different... No, that's the guy from Big Bang Theory, right? Oh, I don't know. He speaks in a robot voice. And she's like... Isn't that also Michael Showalter? Or is that a different... No. That's the guy from Big Bang Theory, right? Oh, I don't know. Really?

I didn't watch that show. I don't know. I'm so sorry. Michael Showalter does emcee the talent show as a different character. Oh, that's what I was thinking about. It's like a corny stand-up comic vibe. That made me laugh so much. That was...

They just... They loved it. I'm so old. I ate raptor eggs for breakfast. I was like, woohoo! It's so good. But she like, yeah, she cares enough to like, she approaches that kid. She's like, it seems like you haven't like, made that many friends.

And like, you know, what can I do to help? And she's like, why don't you do something in the talent show? Meanwhile, like Amy Poeh she's like why don't you do something in the talent show meanwhile like Amy Poehler's like no it has to be perfect and then I feel like he's a very important character because he like conjures up the wind he does it like blows the like space equipment away I don't again which we haven't even touched on. We haven't even told anybody about that whole plot. I forgot about that in the recap. It's crazy that you can just drop out that plot and have the movie still sort of make sense.

Yeah, just the doomsday of a satellite hitting the camp and causing everyone to die. Right. So David Hyde Pierce's character, Henry, figures out that there's this piece of space equipment like hurling toward them so they like build this like machine to calibrate exactly where it's gonna land because and then they figure out that it's gonna land right on the building that the talent show is in so like how can we use this machine to like deviate its course so then they do that but it also might have been like the wind that the kid at the end like conjures up who this movie is crazy but like also you're like you buy it immediately of course like within five minutes you're like literally anything could happen in this movie and i'd be

like sure exactly yeah yeah yeah and then the the relationship between beth and his name's henry yeah i'm gonna keep saying niles i'm sorry uh but the the relationship between Beth and his name's Henry in the movie. I'm going to keep saying Niles. I'm sorry. But the relationship between Beth and Niles is really, I don't know. I mean, it's like there are definitely some tropey parts about it. But I feel like almost every trope is commented on in some way to the point where I was basically satisfied with how they treat it. Like in the first scene where she approaches him first and she's like, hi'm beth i run the camp a lot and then there's that great line read where she's like asking him like oh i'd love for you to like tutor the kids and he's like oh no i can't and then

she's like oh but it'd be great if you did he's like no i don't want to and then she's like but if you and he's like i said no and that's the greatest scene i've ever seen. Yeah. But, you know, she's, like, pretty proactive in, like, pursuing that relationship. Mm-hmm. She does get a makeover. Yeah. At one point. Sort of. Sort of.

She swoops her hair to one side, and that's basically all that happens. Right. And I'm like, I don't know. But have you ever tried that? I mean, that'll change your life. Sure, sure, sure. To be fair, she did, uh you know ensnare her one true love after she did that and then i was like oh i almost thought it was going in the

direction of like oh the woman needs to learn everything about the male character in order to impress him but then he does the same thing right so i was like oh it's actually kind of nice yeah like that relationship and then i don't know i liked it a lot yeah and then there's like that funny like a comment on like the trope at the end where they're like we've been trying to get pregnant and it hasn't been working even though they've known each other for like less than 24 hours so it's a hilarious joke and then she's like i'm pregnant marries a kid right yeah so silly so good it's great yeah so that relationship i mean i feel like there's really not that much to say about it i thought it was very sweet and funny yeah it's a rare

example i would say of a romantic relationship in a movie where uh the male character isn't like stalking her uh trying to trick her or vice versa or vice versa yeah they're just like they see each other from afar they seem interested in each other so they very respectfully just like meet you know respectful you know a relative term but um within the rules of this world in this exactly they figure out what each of the other person is interested in they go and do research on that so that they have more things to talk about. Yeah, she does lie at first and is like, I know all about astrophysics.

But then she goes out and learns all about astrophysics. All in that one day that the movie takes place. I love how this movie operates within time. That's my favorite scene in the movie because she's like, oh, no, I don't actually know anything about astrophysics. How can I get out of this convo? And she's like, oh, no, I don't actually know anything about astrophysics. How can I get out of this convo? And she's like, what time is it? And then he looks up at the sky.

So great. What a great joke. But, yeah, so it's like in so many movies we see like a man lying to a woman, manipulating her for the sake of like a romantic pursuit or like stalking her and that's supposed to be romantic like all this stuff so this movie doesn't subscribe to any of those very problematic things and uh i guess so like points for that but yeah it is i didn't give it that much thought when i was watching it but yeah it's like actually a pretty well handled, like budding of a romantic relationship. Yeah. I mean, I also think that like the movie is about sex and love.

You know, that's like what the majority of the characters want and desire. And so like in the sense that like for the most part, women are talking about men, like the men are talking about women. And I think that's okay though, then when that's like what the movie is about. But then I think that they handled those relationships well right for being a movie

about that stuff right because you know what movie like that that doesn't handle it well at all is Love Actually oh god

worst ensemble movie that's a hot take I think I haven't looked at it with my with my new eyes well give the Love Actually episode

we did a listen, and it will... It'll ruin the movie for me. Yeah, it is. If you want to continue to enjoy that movie, you can never watch it again. That's really the only way you can continue to love it. No, I'm already just thinking about moments of that movie, and I'm like, oh, no. The most famous scene is scary yeah that with the with the cue cards and oh right oh yeah horrible yeah can i jump ahead to to katie please sure well i think

that so katie is the one that coop likes and she's she's like the popular girl whose boyfriend paul rudd is like constantly cheating on her with elizabeth. And I think that we expect her to end up with Coop and to be like, oh, this guy's an asshole. I should be here with this nice guy who's always been there for me and is obsessed with me. And that sort of plays into the nice guys deserve the pretty girls. But instead, she's like, I just want to fuck.

And you're not who I want to do that with. And my boyfriend is. Yeah. And I'm sorry. But there is a moment where for a second, for one scene, you think that she is going to end up with Coop. Because she rushes out of the talent show. And she's like, I love you. I want to be with you.

And so you get that moment that feels disappointing of like, oh, really? Like, he's really going to? That doesn't make any sense. And you get that moment yeah that like feels disappointing of like oh really like he's really gonna that doesn't make any sense and you get that kiss and then it's like the next scene where she's like i don't want to fuck you blah blah and then she also calls out because the whole time i don't know i was like how does she not know that paul rudd is cheating on her because a child literally drowned while he was cheating on her he's blatantly doing it but she says i mean she's like i know he cheats on me all the time i don't care i want to fuck him as much as i can because i'm quote unquote 17 16 16 but i i mean in a way isn't that so empowering i thought it was great yeah we never see women say that right this is the thing is like cheating is this thing that i

think is in a lot of relationships going away because people are just in open relationships. So if you put that lens on their relationship, then they're just in an open relationship and who cares? Do you know what I mean? If she doesn't care about cheating, then that's basically what it is. Then it's not cheating, really. It is still cheating because he's lying to her about it, but they could have easily just been in an open relationship and she would have been down yeah so very progressive 2001 yeah yeah it's rare that you see a woman who's just like so sexually empowered that she's like i don't really care what the circumstances are i just wanna fuck right because she's not like hurt by him cheating right like she doesn't

care she doesn't care yeah she even she's like i know my boyfriend's pretty lame but like he's extremely hot so arguably she's like a little superficial but like but like whatever she's open about it yeah own it the only thing that i thought that that was like that was definitely and that's within this world it makes sense but her character at the beginning i think part of the reason that that end her ending is so like impactful and kind of like whoa I didn't see that coming is because she doesn't act that way for a lot of the movie where at the beginning of the movie we see her ask for more attention from Paul Rudd's character attention or sex uh not sex no there's a there's a scene where she literally says like uh oh I don't know if I wrote down the exact quote, but there's a scene where she's just like, why don't you like pay more? She's asking him for more emotion. She's asking him. And then she basically says, like, I feel like you're paying attention to other people and not me.

And so you don't get the vibe from her of like all she wants to do is fuck. But then in the journey of this 24 hours at the end she's like okay no now i understand what he's at the beginning i feel like we're we're supposed to think she has no idea he's cheating on her so it is kind of like a change uh although i would say if you re-watch the movie knowing how like horny she is at the end and like how much she just wants to have sex if you look at her character and like what she says through that lens by re-watching the movie she's always like come on like when are we gonna like hang out and like go off and like hang out together right so you could kind of read it as like when can we go off and have sex sort of thing so it's not it's certainly not explicit until the very end oh yeah she's like

i just want to spend time with you and then he says fuck you so paul rudd's character that's he's wild because like but he's playing what's very clearly like a kind of aggro toxic masculinity hot boy yeah he's a he's like bad boy fuck boy he's wearing a jean jacket he's wearing aviator sunglasses he's's always like, yeah, he doesn't give a fuck about anything. He cheats on his girlfriend and kills a child in the same scene. He's that kind of guy. Right. But I think that's all played up for humor. And if anything is being commented on in this movie,

I think toxic masculinity in the form of his character is sort of being commented on or shed light on. When I was at camp, of course you love that guy. And so it, like, makes you realize, like, what a loser that guy was. Yeah, yeah. And I also think the fact that Paul Rudd, even though he is eternally young, he's clearly not, you know, a teenager in that movie. He's, like, well into his 30s.

But it is cool to, like, see someone with, like, a teenagerish swagger, like, in the body of a 33-year-old man. It looks fucking ridiculous. Was he really in his... He was 33? Paul Rudd is born... So he was 32. He was born in 69, which is...

What? Paul Rudd is 49 years old. Oh my God. Just so everyone knows, there is a Dorian Gray portrait somewhere rotting away as Paul Rudd drinks people's blood and grows more powerful. I'm assuming. We don't know. It's not a proven theory.

But Paul Rudd is 49 years old. He's 32 years old in this movie. That's insane. It's insane. It's unfair. It's violence against all humans. I also want to talk about Coop's approach to his crush on Katie. Because at one point he says something like, you know, I love you and I love the way you laugh.

And I love, I don't care that you're bilingual. A bunch of silly stuff. But he's mostly saying that he appreciates her for her personality, her intelligence, her sense of humor. But also at the beginning of the movie, they have a very brief conversation, and he says, that's the longest I've ever talked to her. That's true. So I think that they don't really even know each other.

I think he's just saying that stuff because that's what he thinks he thinks, but really he just thinks she's beautiful. Yeah, I think that they're, I mean, I feel like Coop is one of the more subtle uses of commentary in a very unsubtle movie where he is kind of like set up to be this typical, like, you know, nice guys finish last,

but until the end of the movie, and then he gets the girl, like you were just saying, Alison, but then he doesn't like he, you know, right. Like he doesn't get what he wants.

And I think that that's cool. And it calls out that like, he barely does know her so like the things he says at the end are kind of empty platitudes but then also like they they do become friends throughout the weird amount of time that the movie takes place in because there's a few scenes of them alone together there's like when everyone finds out that like he hasn't you know like gotten laid and she is saying i guess, she's like, well, why not? You should be fucking as much as possible.

And he's like, sluts rock. It just has to be the right slut. So I was like, that's very cute. He's very sex positive and not slut-shamey, so good for him. Sluts rock, said feminist icon Coop. Well, then that reminds me of another character, Victor, Ken Marino's character, where he is putting on this persona of being this macho stud who fucks everyone. And he's so good at sex.

And then he reveals to Joe the Trulio that he is a virgin. He's never had sex before. It was this big shocker for us as the audience. Right. We're like, him? The guy constantly talking about sex has never had sex? Right. So, again, that might be intentional commentary on sort of, you know, toxic masculinity.

Or it just might be a silly joke. It's kind of hard to tell. But yeah, I don't know. Like his character is just like so absurd. Although, man, I'm just, I keep thinking of all the very funny things that happen in this movie when he's like running back to camp,

the bale of hay, but he has to like jump over. Oh, another scene, this is a different character, but another scene that i love so much is andy paul rudd finishing his like lunch or something and then like flinging his plate oh yeah and then beth is like what are you doing pick that up right now and he's just like first he's like i'll get it later's like, no, pick that up now. Yeah, and then he respects her authority because she's a respectful figure. Let's go.

There's so many characters. Gale, the Molly Shannon character. Yes. This is another character where at first I'm like, this is one of the characters I probably like the least. But then she still has an arc like they all have tiny arcs that are mostly effective where we're introduced to her and kind of like another tropey character of like the divorced woman who can't get over it and she's so she's so divorced she's handicapped yeah yeah like she can't even do her job right that she's so upset about her divorce from Judah Friedlander, which is like, talk about a twist.

Judah Friedlander thinking he could deserve Molly Shannon. But by the end, it's like at first the laughs are coming from the fact that it's like, oh, she's so pathetic. She can't move on. She can't do her job but then her students especially one special guy who she does marry even though he's 11 like coach her and get her confidence up and then we she has a moment at the the talent show that's true where she stands up for herself judah freelander shows up and he's like take me back and she's like no i'm with she doesn't even say i'm with him now which is great but later we're like oh she she knew what she was gonna do she's gonna marry that kid she's already there's another man's let's try to unpack that

no okay okay it ruins it never mind That is something that could not have been gender reversed. That would have been way creepier. Then we would be having a very different discussion. Let me keep that. Okay, so are we saying that it's... At least we never see them kiss because we do see Abby kiss that kid named Moose at the end. I just want to say that I don't support older women and children. I'm just saying, like, in our society,

it tends to be more accepted even though it shouldn't be. Let the record reflect that we here on the Bechdel cast do not support adults in romantic relationships with children. I know that's a hot take but but we are not for that um but yeah it's just like i get it they're doing it for the joke and it is but again it's the older woman and the younger boy right that is true like i feel like until very very recently that's always been viewed as, like, great job, man. For sure.

Like, cool, you got an older woman, great for you. And, like, only, like, in the last two weeks, people were like, actually, that's still statutory. That's still, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, because you hear stories about, like, teenage boys having sex with their, like, teacher, female teachers, and, like, the idea for a long time, and still a lot of people think this is like yeah way just like good job yeah yeah there's like this belief that like boys can't be taken advantage of right which not it doesn't make any sense because when they're taken advantage of by men everyone understands that that's like not appropriate right yeah let's unpack that yeah i mean there's perhaps hyper masculinity is alive and well

in our society what no i 100 agree with everything that was just said let the record show it made me laugh i yeah um and in okay one one more note on the gail character inside of that storyline there were a few like cool lines from whenever the kids are pumping her up, which is not problematic for kids to be supportive of their perhaps suffering teacher. I mean, it is problematic for her to be like, here are my very personal issues, but it's a movie. But there are female students that are encouraging her as well. Like they're like, there's a lot that men do that's inexcusable and they're basically her like young students are rejecting like hyper masculinity in theory and she's like oh i've never thought of it this way maybe judah friedlander is a loser and blah blah blah and so i thought that

was good i don't know why i started anti this storyline and then for some reason just like violently defended it so the youth is the future that's it's true all right we still have 400 characters to talk about so let's take a quick break and we'll be back in a second Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017 was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unhurts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks. Daphne exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country

into a mafia state. And she paid the ultimate price. Listen to Crooks everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. To listen to new episodes one week early and 100% ad free subscribe to the iHeartTrue Crime Plus channel available exclusively on Apple Podcasts Take a Walk podcast music history on foot. Ian Hunter. Hello, Ian. It's Ringo. How'd you fancy going on the tour?

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It's like, that's the thing that's so cool is you got, I've got these stories because of my life. Listen to the Take a Walk podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I've been thinking about you. I want you back in my life. It's too late for that. I have a proposal for you. Come up here and in my life. It's too late for that. I have a proposal for you.

Come up here and document my project. All you need to do is record everything like you always do. One session. 24 hours. BPM 110. 120. She's terrified. Should we wake her up?

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We're not hurting people. There's nothing dangerous about what you're doing. They're just dreams. Dream Sequence is a new horror thriller from Blumhouse Television, iHeartRadio, and Realm. Listen to Dream Sequence on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. So who do we want to do next? There's a few small quickies. There lindsey the elizabeth banks character her thing is that she fucks she's very horny she's a horny woman aggressively going after andy paul rudd he is receptive to it even though oftentimes his girlfriend katie is right there

um but then he decides so they make out a few times. One of those times a kid does drown on his watch. And then he throws another kid who was like his swimming partner out of a van to like hush him up. Paul Rudd's the kid killer. But also those scenes make me laugh a lot.

They are really, the drowning scene I was dying. I will say Elizabeth Banks, early in her career, and I think she's so interesting. I really like her. And she like, once she, and I feel like this is a kind of a common path for female actors, almost by nature of how careers work. Yeah, by default is what I was going to say. She spoke out about it later, but early in her career,

there's a lot of roles like this that she's given over and over and over. I mean, pretty clearly because she's very talented. She's so funny in this movie, but she's not given much to do kind of because of her body type and because of how she looks. She plays a very similar role that is not commenting on anything in The 40-Year-Old Virgin. Just like early in her career. Who is anything in The 40-Year-Old Virgin. Just like early in her career. Who is she in The 40-Year-Old Virgin? She fucks Steve Carell for no reason.

It's a very frustrating movie to watch her in. Like it's basically. Did he pick her up at that bar? She's the one who's like wasted? No, that's Leslie Mann. She works at like a bookstore and Seth Rogen, who should be deported back to Canada. Can't say it enough uh basically Seth Rogen sends Steve Carell's character in to be like hey she's wearing a thong so you

could fuck her and then Steve Carell goes to her and she is like who's this hottie like it's just the whole scene is insane yeah but like Elizabeth Banks's early career is littered with characters like this in a way that makes me like frustrated for her. Because we know now she's capable of so much more. Yeah. And has like done a lot of good stuff. And I think that's what drove her to produce and to direct and to be more in the creative position so that she could have those roles. Yeah.

That were meatier. So even though she's like good in this movie, we know that she's capable of much more. So I was like a little frustrated. Also the founder of Hoo-Ha-Ha, which is a celebration of women in comedy and empowerment of women doing comedy stuff. Very true. This is the year before she's rejected from being given the part of Mary Jane Watson in the first Spider-Man movie. Because she was too old, even though she was the same age as Tobey Maguire.

Oh, my God. Really? Yeah. She has a very small part in Spider-Man. But the part, I mean, Tobey Maguire was too old to play Spider-Man. He was like 28 or something. And Elizabeth Banks was 28. And they were like, actually, Tobey Maguire is 28 but Kristen Dunst is 17 so she was only 17

in that movie life's crazy just a bunch of upsetting fun facts so in this movie I'm like man this is the era where Elizabeth Banks is not getting her due makes me pissed yeah well um she's shown us though

17 years and then we see her full potential right um yeah she's basically only in this story to be seen making out with paul red a few times and to have barbecue sauce all over her face that was fun that was fun but her talents are under utilized and that character is barely written. Like, yeah, she's kind of horny. I thought for some reason when I before I started rewatching this, I thought that she had a much more like crucial role in the story. And then I was like, oh, no, she like hardly does anything. She's only there to make out with Paul Rudd.

Because she wasn't famous then. Yeah. Like when we think of a movie with her, we're like, oh, she's going to be the star. Yeah. She's going to have a big role. No one uses Elizabeth Banks in a meaningful way until like 2008. It's crazy. Yeah.

Anyways. Shall we talk about Susie, Amy Poehler's character? Yeah. She, I think, is the only female character whose storyline does not deal with a romantic relationship to a man. True. Yeah. Yeah. So that was interesting. storyline does not deal with a romantic relationship to a man true yeah yeah so that was interesting she's all about making the talent show the best it can possibly be peak theater kid i can't remember so so she's working closely with uh ben played by bradley cooper and i can't

remember which of them is like the she's the producer and he's the director of choreography or vice versa i forget who exactly has i think she'd have to be the producer right she has such a she's so intense right yeah so she's working closely with him and they're both like these like kind of authoritarian like artistic types to be like what this has to be like this and these kids fucking suck at singing and uh this is such a travesty which I find to be very funny because then the kids do fine yeah they do a really good job and she's like oh that's horrible bullshit but yeah so I enjoyed that there was at least one storyline that doesn't tie her to like a romantic interest and another character who we see a few different sides of where most of her spoken lines are very uptight

like oh i'm a theater director but then she's also heavily featured in the scene where they get so high they almost die and she's like having fun and she's like she's friends with katie apparently there's like a few different scenes where they're like a whole like you know friend cuddling or whatever and so it's like oh she's also like so supportive of the marriage yeah but between oh yeah she's like playing yeah a flute or a recorder right yeah she's like super okay with that and like suzy's got a bunch of stuff going on yeah we don't she has a full life yeah we don't see that much of her on screen. We're kind of filling the blanks, but like... And Amy Fuller's just so good. Yeah.

I feel... Yeah, like you feel like you see her more than you actually do. Because every time you see her... She steals the spotlight. Yeah. I mean, she buries Bradley Cooper every time. Sorry, Bradley. But can you imagine them now?

She would still now, too. She would still bury him now. That's why they have not appeared on screen together. Who else do we have? We have Abby. Abby, yes. Abby is another very horny girl. I'm kind of really into how horny all the girls are.

Especially because they're not ever shamed for being sexual. I think it's just a commentary on this time in your life when your hormones are just out of control. And you're in this contained space with very minimal supervision. And then they just turned it to 11. Right. Because the movie starts with a bunk full of, what are they, 11-year-olds? Yeah, they're pretty young. Everyone is just making out under the covers.

And then they like sneak out uh-huh and then there's like the shot of like all the campers from every cabin yeah having to run back to their own yeah horniest movie of all time so much horny depth but that's like what jew camp is like from what i i never went to a jewish camp i went to regular camp but i heard that jew camp was like i'm jewish i can can say this, was even more sexed up than regular sleepaway camp. Fun. And my sleepaway camp wasn't horny at all. I went to Girl Scout camp. Was it horny? You guys.

It was unfortunately not that horny. God damn it. I want to go to a horny camp. It's too late. It's too late. You know what? I don't think so. Abby and Lindsay make out at the end. Yes. There's a scene between the two of them.

How did you get, where did you fall on that? I wasn't sure. Part of me, well that, because I'm like, is it being played for laughs? It kind of is. I think it is. Yeah. And I think these are two of like the horniest characters we see. Let's put them together and have them.

I think the idea is that they're so horny that it doesn't matter who they're kissing so i don't know if it's even like an end of the world like queer characters it's more that they're just like these are two such horny people that they'll make out with a kid they'll make out with a woman even if they aren't queer like abby's the one that makes out with the kid right yes yeah yeah okay so i when we dissect this movie out loud there is a lot of problems right so yeah i think it was played more as a joke and less as although like who knows they might be bi they might be you know pan sexual who knows we simply don't know them very well exactly so i think with the context we're given about their sexuality it's not that much because up till then we've only seen them kissing men or boy or literal boys literal boys so that their their sexual preferences aren't really explored enough to know whether or not they're actually queer which is which that that moment i was like oh this is kind of a bummer

a little bit because it is kind of being played for laughs in a movie that otherwise dealt with queerness, I thought, in a way more mature way than most movies in its genre would. And so I was like, oh, that's kind of a throwaway joke because I think we're led to believe that they are not queer and there's nothing in the subtext of the movie that would suggest otherwise. Except for that one. Except for that one. Except for that one. But it's a joke. Right. So I didn't like love that. But also, I don't know.

I don't know. I guess I'm kind of just like. There's another kind of problematic moment where a lot of the counselors are kind of taking off their clothes and like getting into their, they're like in their bikinis and they're about to like take a dip in the pond or whatever and i think it's jj gary and mckinley is there too i think and they're basically just like watching them so it's like but the way it's shot is like very male gaze where it's like panning up and down their like scantily clad bodies and like so i get it if you want to show kind of toxic male characters gazing at women and, like, make a commentary on how, like, that's kind of gross because that's what's happening. But also the way it's shot means that we're seeing it through their lens, which is still the male gaze and it's still, like, at least lingering. It's having it both ways.

Right. Yeah. Like, he's so gross, but also you get to see it, too. Yeah. Yeah. both ways right yeah it's like here's he's so gross but also you get to see it too yeah yeah so that's when like mckinley who has no interest in women sneaks off and he's like i don't care about what seeing girls in their bikinis and then we see him go into like the shed and start having sex with ben so let's talk about that it's the best we've been waiting so long to talk about that it's a great scene yeah i thought yeah it's like steamy and hot it's not played for laughs at all no i'd say it's like the most

genuine of this like the makeout scenes and like i mean it's a beautiful moment right it was great because a lot of the other like sexy moments in the movie are played for laughs because it's like either characters like shoving gum into their mouth right before they make out or like a character taking her shirt off for no reason or like a character's face like covered in barbecue sauce so it feels like it was so planned or like it was like a goal versus just like a genuine attraction between two people right and this is just like, they have just like incredible chemistry. Straight sexuality as portrayed by this movie is fucking gross.

It's nasty. Yeah. And it's stinky and it's dirty. And then you see this like incredible sex scene in a shed where you're just like, I didn't know I wanted to see Michael Ian Black shirtless. I didn't know. And then I did Ian Black shirtless. I didn't know. And then I did.

And now I don't. You can never go back. And then the way their storyline plays out, I thought it was, like, cool to see how many, you know, because there are, like, gay slurs used in this movie. But the characters who use them then witness the wedding and you see that there's a good portion of this camp in 1981 that is so supportive of this wedding.

We're playing flutes where, you know, like the head of the camp is officiating the wedding. And then those characters come around because they change. So they use like the homophobic slurs and they're, it seems like they're grossed out at first, but then, and this is all, this is played in that But then, and this is played as a joke, but I think the joke works because you think that they're horrified

and disgusted by their same-sex relationship and there's a scene where JJ and Gary go and confront McKinley and Ben and they're like, hey, McKinley, Ben, this is for you. And you think they're going to mckinley ben this is for you and you think they're gonna like like assault them or something like that but they buy them like a chaise lounge and they're like here we just bought this for you i hope it matches with your other furniture or like whatever

and they're like oh my gosh it does and then queer bashing is resolved at this camp forever so yeah those like uh characters that start out being homophobic very quickly learn their lesson and come around. If only it were that easy. I want to go back to their sex scene, though. Queer characters are so underrepresented in media that it's a horrible travesty. When they are represented, it's usually a horrible misrepresentation and even if they're represented in a positive light we usually don't get to see especially men kissing other men

and definitely not gay male sex like right we normally it'll maybe like cut off right at the kiss or like you don't right yeah so even mainstream movies about queer characters in a romantic context, we might, if we're lucky, we get to see two men kiss. And even that's rare. We're real lucky. You know, I got my fingers crossed. I just want to see two men kiss, which is true for me. But the fact that you like see, it's not a graphic sex scene. It's the way that you treat a sex scene between a straight couple in a PG-13 movie. Yeah. Yeah, very fade to black. It's kind of like a Cruel Intentions level of a sex scene where it's really hot. And when you're a kid and you watch it, you're like, this is incredible.

But then as an adult, you're like, oh, I'm not actually seeing anything scandalous. But they created this feeling in this moment. Right. That felt very sexual. For sure. Yeah. So I just. Even though it's just, like, close-ups on their socks.

Yeah. Even so, like, I think it's pretty fascinating. And does this movie handle queer culture super well? And is it super responsible? I would argue, like like you know it's it could be worse it could be better but the fact that you do see like a same-sex male sex scene in this movie when that almost never happens and it's and they then get married yeah they're like in love it's not just like oh i experimented right right yeah it's i can't get over this it's like really hot

and then later it's beautiful great what a journey met one day yeah i mean as a straight person i i see scenes like this and i'm like there's probably something problematic here but i don't know quite what it is because i'm like seeing it through the lens of a straight lady but if any listeners have additional thoughts on this scene please let us know yes yeah yes please um if anyone just wants to like talk about it or yes if anyone just like wants to like watch the scene with us because we really like the scene and we think it's very hot yes yes yes who else do we have to talk about? We could talk about Gene. I don't know.

I mean, Gene is the lunchman. The lunchman. Gene the lunchman. I mean, it's hard with a movie like this because I could say perhaps that they are because his whole storyline storyline is he when he got back from vietnam he was different and so his whole storyline is a veteran ptsd joke that's worth saying uh and how he has multiple personality like it plays multiple personality disorder as a joke it plays ptsd as a joke it plays being a veteran as a joke it portrays veterans that are crazy but then it's portraying veterans that have mental illness but are also really cool with it which is not really

a realistic portrayal of anything in in the world of the movie i honestly don't know where to fall on it but it's worth acknowledging that his whole character is a big ptsd mental illness joke right and that has yeah maybe manifested into like some interesting kink things that he is now into sure fondling sweaters and having dick cream so yeah the way that whole thing is handled hallucinations in the form of h-tron benjamin i would argue that that character is handled. Hallucinations in the form of H. John Benjamin. I would argue that that character is real and a camper at the camp. I think that can of vegetables is, I think our vegetable listeners, our cans of vegetable listeners, of which we have many. I'm sorry if I made you not feel seen.

Right. I think they're real and we need to respect them as they are. My deepest apologies. It's okay. Yeah, I think that we touched on every character. There's one other named female character of the adults, and there might be some, like, of the campers, the kids, but they so rarely play into this story that, yeah, they don't. They're not, like, full characters.

Right. There's Nancy, the nurse. She works at the like infirmary oh yeah um the big moment that she she has a few moments she like basically has to remind several adults what a library is and how to use it i forgot about that and she goes up to beth whenever beth is saying that she's going to go into town and nancy says if you you're going into town, can you pick me up something at the drugstore? My husband's coming today and I need some lube for my pussy. Does that seem past the Bechdel test?

We'll find out. But stay tuned. Yeah. So she is also extremely horny and sexual. So another example of a sexually liberated progressive gal in the movie and i guess she's meant to be older if she has a husband because i feel like some of the characters are like some are older gail yeah gail who's like married and divorced and nancy must be a so they're not like the counselors who are like you know these 16 year old kids

but um yeah i mean there's hardly anything to say about her aside from the fact that she is very horny and wants to have sex with her husband everyone in this movie is very horny it's wild it's a horny equal opportunity you know provider oh yeah yeah i mean i support that literally every person in this movie and can of vegetables is horny for someone or something. He sucks his own dick. So he's like, can I do it? So dumb. Oh, boy. This is the dumbest movie, but so fun.

So much fun. Does anyone have any other thoughts about the representation of women in Wet Hot American Summer? I think pretty good. Well, let's talk about whether or not this movie passes the Bechdel test. By everything I could tell, for sure it does a lot of different times. Yes. When, though? So by our standard, we just need a two-line exchange.

So it's a low bar for us. And yet so many movies don't bother to even try but there's a scene um in like the arts and crafts classroom between gail and then valerie valerie is named um valerie's like hey we could draw with some markers and gail's like listen valerie i need you to be helpful here i do not need you to undermine me and valerie's like but there's only one crayon like we could color with these hundreds of colored markers and then gail starts sobbing but does that count because there are there are male campers in the scene um sorry for the way that we do it our interpretation of it it does okay great. I play by your rules. We are the experts. I mean, your house, and I play by your rules.

The first time I had it counting was, there's like a very dumb exchange between Beth and Nancy, where like Beth says like, we got through another summer, except for a couple kids who became lepers. And then Nancy says, good one, Beth. Oh. You're like, yeah, that technically passes. Okay. Unless the campers who are now lepers were all boys.

Oh, no. We don't receive more info. That's true. Oh, no. Then there's that scene between Beth and Katie that is the subject of it. Yeah. Katie, you're hot, right? But that's about seducing a man.

Right. That one I. In the subtext. It's tricky. I don't know. This one, a man is never mentioned until the very end of that conversation, which this conversation is maybe like a minute or two long, so it's pretty long. Katie's like, you dog, you have a crush on someone.

And she's like, I do have a crush. I just don't think he's interested. But up until that part of the conversation, a man is not mentioned. But you're right, the whole... I think we know why she's asking. The subtext of that conversation is so that she can be more physically appealing to a man. So I would say that does not pass for that reason. And let's say that that context isn't there. And they're just talking about like, how do I be more hot to feel better about myself?

They are talking about clothes, pants. Pants get brought up a lot. It's like, what is is this the sisterhood of the traveling pants um we did all episodes an unbelievable reference wow you're welcome and yeah they talk about like clothes and hair and like you know stereotypically feminine things yes um so still not great even if it did there's another beth and nancy passing moment where beth asked nancy what and again it is the subtext would be she's getting something to impress david ed pierce on paper she asked nancy where she would find a book and nancy tells

her a library right and then she's just like oh right great work so that passes but again yeah beth is asking so that she can impress a man so with the subtext i would say it does not pass i don't know it's just uh man it's almost as if the bechdel test is imperfect and not the greatest litmus test let's see there's an oh there's a scene between Susie and Beth. It's after Beth is like, hey, like nerdy camper, why don't you do something at the talent show? And Susie's like, how dare you usurp my authority? I've been busting my balls to make this thing great. And everything's still a mess.

And the kids are a bunch of amateurs. So she's like going on this like long tirade to Beth, but Beth never responds. So that doesn't pass. I would say actually that this movie does not pass. That's what I thought. Because of all of the subtext. Yeah. But wait, what was the one?

There was one where you guys, the one about the crayons and the markers. But that scene, but I think if we're going in on the subtext, But wait, what was the one? There was one where you guys, the one about the crayons and the markers. But that scene, but I think if we're going in on the subtext, that series of lines is just a run. Yeah, that's a run up to her bursting into tears over her ex-husband. Right. Yeah, she's breaking down emotionally because she's so distraught because of her husband. So yeah, that whole, the subtext there is still revolving around a man.

So let's say this. If you're just reading a lot of these conversations on paper and don't know the subtext of them at all the movie would technically pass a few times but when you add the subtext back in all of those conversations have to do with a man which as you said it makes sense This is a movie about romance, largely hetero romance. So it makes sense that, you know, if women are talking, it's because of a romantic interest in some regard. So yeah, I don't know. I would say that with subtext, the movie does not pass. But I'd still say it's rather progressive for the time. Agree. Yeah, so let's rate the movie on our nipple scale. Zero to five nipples is our range, and we rate based on its portrayal and representation of women. I would say, for me, it's weird because this movie's so silly and so stupid that, like I said, it's hard to take anything kind of at face value because the intent of the filmmakers is often not very clear. The jokes kind of maybe undermine some of the stuff. And it's like, does this movie have so many horny women in it because the filmmaker wanted to portray like a sex positive narrative of like female characters like owning their sexuality?

Or is it because the filmmaker just wanted to have like a bunch of horny teens because that's funny kind of hard to say what does come across is it maybe you can't i think it's both i think so okay so let's say it's both because there's no there's no slut shaming that's true normally when it's just the second one there would be some of like oh she's a whore you, and there's not there's none of that. Right. I mean, compare this a little bit to Abby. There's a few moments where they're like, she's the sluttiest girl at camp. There's a few.

True. If you compare this movie to like Sleepaway Camp, which is another movie about teens away at a summer camp and very different genre. But in that movie, you follow the tropes of like any women who have sex get murdered because horror movie right um so at least and that's just you know a way of like shaming women for having sexuality basically so um at least no women get murdered in this movie so and that so for that i give it five nipples no um i would say i'm gonna give this like a two and a half it's progressive for its time but it's i don't think this movie is going out of its way to like be progressive or to make any profound statements about like gender politics or anything like that. I think because of the movie being as like silly as it is, it sort of by accident has some like interesting female characters who have agency over their own sexuality and things like that but we also see you know fairly well fleshed out female characters in

like Beth and her being in charge and like the respected leader in the community stuff like that's nice but I also think that it's just it's almost too stupid to be like a movie that we can classify as a feminist text. I would argue that that that's not fair. Like, I don't think that you can you can say that based on a genre. Like, I think if a movie follows through on like what type of movie it is, it can still be excellent as that type of movie. Sure. And this is not to say that I'm putting all comedies in this. No, I mean, this is a broad, absurdist comedy. Right.

But I think that it's still, like, I'm going to rate it 3.5. Interesting. Okay. I think that Beth very easily could have been a male character, and she wasn't. And she's the leader of the entire camp, and she's, like, our backbone of the story. Yeah. And I like her as a character, and I also like how sex positive the movie is. Yeah. And how progressive it is about that the gay couple the perfect i mean because

this movie happened the world's most perfect seed was committed to film and for that we have to be grateful uh i'm gonna hit it with a three for all the uh aforementioned i mean it is great to see like a teen female character like embrace their sexuality and not be punished. Especially, I think that was a really good point, Caitlin, of in the context of camp where teenage girls are always punished for sexuality at camp. Right. Same thing with our, listen to our Friday the 13th episode where we talk a lot about that. Murder camp. episode where we talk a lot about murder camp uh yeah so it's good to see a bunch of horny nastiness that's great i love it i love that scene obviously it is the whitest movie of all time so

white uh worth mentioning but for i i agree especially considering this came out in 2001 uh i feel like as far as 2001 goes this is pretty much as good as it's going to get for its time. Yeah, as my rating was for 2001 film. Because the ethnicity issues, like the diversity issues are huge. Again, I've only seen the Netflix series of this, I think the first day of camp. I think I watched that the whole way through. They introduced a few new characters. I can't remember if any of them are people of color or i don't i think it stays pretty white yeah we found the fatal flaw right and this otherwise perfect movie

yeah so i'm gonna give it 2.5 nipples and i'm going to um my nipples one to McKinley one to Beth and my half nipple will go to Susie because I appreciated that she was an artistic director of talent which is something that I used to do so like I really identified

with her. Brave. I know. She's so brave. I'm gonna give I had brave. I'm gonna give I had three. I'm gonna give one to Beth. I'm gonna give one to Abby. And I'm gonna give one to Gail. Alright. Yeah. Would you like to

give your nipples away? Oh sure. As rewards? Yes I'll give one to Beth. One to McKinley. One to Katie. And then half to Susie great cool excellent Alison thank you so much for being here thank you so much for having me where can people follow you what would you like to plug I'd love to plug my my own podcast gossip which is a scripted comedy that's available wherever you can

find podcasts you can also go to gossippodcast.com and then you can find me personally at alice and raskin wherever and then my youtube channel is just between us and my book is i hate everyone but you and just between us is with friend of the cast gabby dunn yeah same with the book yep awesome you can follow the bechtel cast on social media you can rate and review us on itunes you can go to our website bechtelcast on social media. You can rate and review us on iTunes. You can go to our website, Bechtelcast.com. And you can subscribe to our Patreon. Gets you two bonus episodes every month.

And it's only $5 a month. Wow. Woo. Well, shall we all go off and be horny at camp together? Yeah, sure. Let's go. Let's go. All right. I'll see you there at camp. Okay sure let's go all right i'll see you there okay bye

daphne caruana galicia was a maltese investigative journalist who on october 16th 2017 was assassinated crooks everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one woman wiki leaks she exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. To listen to new episodes one week early and 100% ad-free, subscribe to the iHeart True Crime Plus channel, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. That's right. We're an official I Heart podcast, and I'm super excited about it. I am too. I thought Two Cool Moms was such a fun podcast, but now it's even more funner and cooler and heartier. That's right. It's more I Heartier.

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