The Bechdel Cast - When Harry Met Sally with Naomi Ekperigin

Episode Date: July 27, 2017

This is the episode of "When Caitlin Already Knew Guest Naomi Ekperigin" and "When Jamie Never Met Naomi" and "When Everyone Discusses When Harry Met Sally Separately"(This episode contains spoilers)Follow @Blacktress on Twitter! While you're there, you should also follow @BechdelCast, @caitlindurante and @hamburgerphone   Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017 was assassinated. Crooks Everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. That's right, the only, Katherine Hahn is joining us on Las Culturistas. That's right, the queen of comedy herself. Get ready for a conversation that's as hilarious as it is insightful. Tune in for all the laughs, the stories,

and of course, the culture. Don't miss Katherine Hahn on Las Culturistas. Listen to Las Culturistas on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Gianna Pradenti. And I'm Jermaine Jackson-Gadsden. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts.

There's a lot to figure out when you're just starting your career. That's where we come in. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in people who do, like negotiation expert Maury Tahiripour. If you start thinking about negotiations as just a conversation, then I think it sort of eases us a little bit. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the Bechdelcast, the questions asked if movies have women in them.

Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism? The patriarchy's effing vast. Start changing it with the Bechdel cast. Hello and welcome to the Bechdel cast. My name is Caitlin. My name's Jamie. And we are here to talk about movies and how women are portrayed in movies. As per usual. to talk about movies and how women are portrayed in movies. As per usual. As per usual, we are inspired.

We're so inspired by the Bechdel test, which requires that a movie has two women. They have to have names. They have to have a conversation. Their conversation has to be about something other than a man. Does it ever happen? Almost never. We tried to crunch the numbers of episodes we've done so far not too long ago,

and we got too frustrated and gave up. Right. Especially because so many of them I couldn't even remember. Pie chart forthcoming. Yeah, we should shell out some hot stats. Love a good chart. Give me a graph. Give me a chart.

Give me the data. Give me a chart. Give me the data. Give me the metadata. Ooh. Yeah. So this is about to be an interesting episode. Yeah, it's my fault. Because don't worry. I'm not here to shame you.

Don't shame yourself. I am. That's why I was born. We were recording this intro post the recording of the episode. Post 9-11, certainly. So we're recording this intro post recording of the episode because we had a situation where Jamie had to be somewhere else. I have a bunch of pictures of me dancing with a redheaded child. Honestly. As evidence of how I spent my time.

So we had to record without you. So the episode you're about to hear is just... A hero's journey. You're right. It's me, Caitlin, and it's our guest, but we still have things to say. We do. You and I... We have unfinished business.

We have unfinished business. We have unfinished business. So yeah, Jamie and I will check back in toward the end. But for now, enjoy this episode with Caitlin. And she has a Comedy Central half hour. She's been on Late Night with Seth Meyers. She was a writer for Broad City and currently writes on Great News. Naomi Ickparigan. Hi.

Thank you so much for being here. for having me guys yeah so we're pretending right now as though jamie's here she's not surprised why did you like go blow up the spot because i was like totally prepared to pretend like i was talking to people but then people would notice because she is not chiming in. Right, right, right. People would be like, well, why isn't Jamie saying anything? What if it was like, oh, we tied her up, but we wanted her to be here. Do you know what I mean? That would be fun. That would be a fun layer.

We do tie people up, but it's only the men guests we have on the show. That's smart. Because, of course, you know, we're here to talk about women in movies. If a man dares to enter our podcast premises, they can, but they have to pay a price. And we do have to tie them up. I do notice that your producer is a submissive. So that does make a lot of sense, you know. Shout out to Aristotle, the most wonderful man in the world. He's so sweet and he's the greatest.

He's sitting blushing in the corner shaking his head like a real power bottom there we go oh man anyway thank you so much for being here we're here to talk about the movie when harry met sally oh yes so you said this is a movie you've seen dozens of times a bunch of times. So many. Own it on DVD. Love it. Nice. When did you first see it?

I was probably in eighth or ninth grade when I saw it. So, you know, like I was like, I feel like I just found Annie DeFranco. I was having a lot of feelings. I was like a very naturally romantic child, you know? Really into all the Bronte sisters and just like longing as a concept. We've got Emily. We've got Charlotte. Charlotte.

We've got Samantha. We've got Carrie. Sorry, wrong group of women. Whoops. We've got Raphael. We've got Michelangelo. Oh no, that's not even women or humans. Fuck.

Anyway, so you saw it early on and you've seen it. It's one of your favorite movies? It's definitely like a comfort movie. I think as I've gotten older, of course, it is dated. It feels a little cheesy, but I really love it. What I also love, I'm from New York, and it's a New York movie. The settings really shoot New York really well well and it's so pretty and stuff like that you know and it kind of captures new york on all four seasons it's like the lovely

moment of them in the fall and fucking central park and it's just like oh the foliage hello the foliage alone the foliage alone is worth rewinding. Yeah, so I think I saw this movie for the first time probably in college. I was a bit older when I saw most of the movies I saw because, surprise, I went to film school. And then I went and got a master's degree in screenwriting from Boston University. Wow. Brag. I love it. I almost went to get, I was gonna do a phd in film studies i

majored in film and english and my thesis was a screenplay nice but then i was like yeah and then i was like oh maybe i'll be like a professor or like you know like an academic you know and really say like race and film and get really gritty and then like after a couple years out of college i was like i want to go back to homework and there goes that life hey there's still time girl please i am too old to be listening to anybody true i mean no i just feel like i would just reach this age where i'm like you want me to do what i mean why exactly i have cats to feed you know what i mean is you don't have to listen to anyone you're not too old to do anything. Thank you so much. That's so helpful.

Wait, do you have cats? I do have two cat children. Oh my God. I just flew them here. Oh my God, you should come by. We just flew them here from New York. It was the first time with them on a plane. It was very stressful, but they made it through.

I would like to remind everyone that cats do have eight nipples. And they can see ghosts, as we learned from the movie Ghost. Ghost. Do they have eight nipples and they can see ghosts as we learned from the movie ghost do they have eight i mean do boys have eight this is because we have male cats i have male cats and i've never felt you will i've never felt eight count them they're there they might not be as prominent they're not but are you maybe are you only seeing pregnant cats? No. I mean, I'm not like investigating every cat. But if you Google how many nipples does a cat have, the answer is eight with both men and women cats. Men and women cats. Yeah, men and women cats.

Female and male cats. They all have eight nipples, even the boy cats, even the males. Wow. So this has been another episode of cat facts cat facts with caitlin anyway so let's talk about the movie oh so you went to film school you made or you majored in film and english great so you're a great guest to have on you know all about all the stuff um i'll go into my recap please do please do break it down when harry met sally is the story of harry and sally they meet on a drive a road trip from chicago to new

york when they're i think have both graduated college yes and they don't like each other their personality is just like don't mesh very well. In their trip, they have a discussion. Harry's like, oh, men and women can't be friends because the sex always gets in the way. Men are always going to want to fuck that woman. Even if he doesn't think she's hot, he's still going to want to fuck her. And she's like, well, that's pish posh. Well, that's pish posh. Correct.

They have that conversation. And he kind of, he's pish posh. Correct. They had that conversation and he kind of he's like, well, you're attractive. She's like, you can't come on to me. I'm uptight and I'm delicate. And I like to spend 40 minutes ordering apple pie, which, by the way, what monster orders strawberry ice cream on apple pie? I know. I know. I know. It is disgusting. It is disgusting.

Truly awful. Truly awful. I'm with you on that. So he's like, oh, man, you're kind of cute. And she's like, you're dating my friend. You can't come on to me. And then they have the whole discussion where, oh, men and women can't be friends. And then they kind of part ways.

Then we fast forward. Fast forward five years. Five years. They meet again. On an airplane. She's got a new guy. He's like supposed to be 80s hot, but is pretty basic. He's blonde. He's a blonde male. He's a blonde, but it's like a very deep part. And it's like the 80s, there were certain guys

where it was like, did you do too much cocaine? You could be 40, you could be 22. And he's kind of in that world. You know what I mean? But he's supposed to be the perfect guy. His is joe joe oh these one syllable names no thanks joe anyway so uh real hard stance caitlin coming out here so they they reconnect on an airplane and they have the conversation again can men and women be friends because at this point they're now in relationships both of them yes maybe we can and then i'm like i don't know and then they part ways again and then flash forward another five years correct they meet up again i'm blanking on where they meet though at

a bookstore yes they're in the bookstore he's now going through a divorce she's still with the guy with the blonde side part. No, she has broken up with him as well. They broke up. Her and Jay broke up. Oh, right. Because then they start, okay, now, yes, yes, you're right.

Now they're both single and then like, let's be friends. We both have broken hearts and are both feeling bad for ourselves. So let's be friends. Alongside all of this, you have Debbie Reynolds. No, that's not her name.

Carrie Fisher, her daughter. Thank you so much for that's not her name. Carrie Fisher, her daughter. Thank you so much for that. I was literally thinking Carrie Fisher, and then I was like, that's wrong. I love this movie. You probably don't think so based on the fact that I can't remember anyone's names. Because all I think of is like, short hair girl.

Because for me, I don't know, I think I'm 13 in my mind whenever I watch that movie. Anyway, Carrie Fisher. Her character's name is Marie. Marie is like, again, she's kind of like a runner along the whole movie like she's thirsty she's with this married man that she cannot let go of so Sally and Marie are in the bookstore they spot Harry and like I love the world in which Billy Crystal's like hot you know so like I love Marie's like oh who's he like by the self-help books and you're just like Billy Crystal did you

write this for yourself but they reconnect in the bookstore and then they are like maybe it's time that we can be friends and they develop this close bond it's a very tender bond I'm like obsessed with their bond it's a lot of just like long shots of them walking through new york and he's basically telling her to loosen up and she's telling him to have emotions and you're just like they get a christmas tree at the christmas tree shop i love it do you know i know that tree shop and right next to it was a pet store it was like the plant shed and the pet shed and i would always go to the pet shed to pick up gold feeder fish for my turtles you've got turtles i did have turtles this is back this is back in my youth got it got it you

know i'm a real turtle head glad to hear it turtles don't have any nipples agree i agree with that scientific fact i can't i can't i'm like the fact that you just like shot. I was like, I have cats. She was like, I have eight nipples. And I was like, what are you talking about? I want you to go home tonight and count your male cat nipples. Will not do it. Will not do it. Cannot feel them.

I've only felt two, and that's all I need to feel. Well, for listeners out there at home who have cats, male female please count the nipples and tell us nipples play a prominent role in this podcast because we rate every movie on our nipple scale zero to five nipples we toward the end okay okay so get ready for that but until then we have a lot more important cat nipples to talk about just kidding we. We're talking about when Harry met Sally. So I'm still halfway through the story. I know. That's why.

Okay. Let me. Okay. So then, so they're like friends. There's a big moment when Sally finds out that Joe, blonde side part, is engaged.

Yes. Now their whole relationship, he was like, I don't want to be married. Lie. He then calls her to tell her, he's like, I've started seeing someone else and we're getting married. Yes. Sally can't

even. Okay? She cannot even. She cannot even. What I love is that she lives in a fucking Laura Ashley dream home. It's like all, you know, like flower prints and even though she's been sobbing, her hair is perfectly coiled and she calls Harry because, you know, they have a lot of phone calls late at night.

They're very. They're always watching Casablanca. It's the only thing on TV late at night. And when you're lonely and can't sleep, you turn on Casablanca. So she calls him to come over. Yeah. Am I ruining it? It's like this is something you're supposed to do.

Like I'm a guest who literally took over the podcast. But it's because I'm like, let us get to the part because we're about to hit the turn. We're about to hit the turn. So he comes over because she's like, I'm so sad. Joe's getting married. Throwing around tissues everywhere, all willy nilly. She's throwing around tissues. She's hiccuping.

She can't even, she can't take anything. Like the most beautiful crier I've ever seen. And then in her sadness her loneliness she goes in for a kiss she goes in for a kiss in harry's male thirst he accepts this kiss and they have the sex i've heard of it are you familiar i hear about it every now and then but i don't like to get into details so they have it the next morning now it's two people who've been friends at this point for like who've known each other for 15 years who've like been friends for years you would naturally assume that once you engage in the coitus it's going to be like

on like donkey kong like we about to be a thing now i don't want harry miss sally the next day he fucking ghosts her a la swayze and it's like i've got a goal maybe you're familiar with the concept of ghosting from the movie Ghost. You know, when you disappear but then come back and stalk someone.

Right. And so he like, kind of like, not blows her off but he really, he treats her like a, he treats her like a random, like a side piece.

Very withholding. That's your homegirl. Y'all was sitting watching Casablanca over the phone together and now you acting like you don't know nobody. Right.

Now, as this all happens, Thirsty Marie has finally left the married guy and is now in a relationship with Harry's best friend and so of course Harry and Sally can't like get rid of each other their best friends are a couple you know so they go to enter they like meet up later at a game night they're both seeing new people they're trying to act like they don't care about the new people but they totally do and then it is new year's eve that's when it really comes because basically he's been trying to call her there's a wonderful montage of him just constantly leaving messages that she's not picking up because she's like girl bye finally they're at this fancy new year's eve party she's dolled up in like perfect 80s like emerald green with a giant bow like her best life right and

he's at home alone and then finally in one of the greatest running scenes of any movie he runs through the streets of new york to get to this new year's eve party and he finds her he's like why'd you come here harry and he's like because when you know you want to spend the rest of your life with someone you want the rest of your life to start as soon as possible. What a line. Oh, one of the best. And then, Meg Ryan does the lip quiver

that is just really her claim to fame in this movie. And she's like, this is why I hate you, Harry. I can't stay mad at you. Hello, cut to them being married. Because the second best part of this movie is that the interstitials of old couples. There's like these standalone interstitials of old couples who have been together, you know, 40, 50 years. Like probably one, two minute vignette of them just talking about like how they met or when they got married.

And they're all like old and hilarious. And mostly white. Mostly white. But my favorite is the Asian couple where the Asian lady doesn't say a word. She does not speak a sound. I almost don't even know if she's paying attention. And he's telling the story of being like, she was beautiful,

so I decided to marry her. And she's just like, I'll co-sign that. So that's like my favorite. So at the end you see that they're married and so it's like really, really tender and it's like all I ever wanted when I was little. And like Sally, I'm a very difficult orderer.

Oh, are you? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Give me an example. I would never fucking put ice cream in apple pie. But like, here's my thing about restaurants. I consider a menu to be a jumping off point for negotiations. Okay. I'm looking at that menu.

That's basically you telling me what's in the kitchen. Uh-huh. Okay. So most of the time I'm going to see what you got. And I'm like, let's see how we can zhuzh it up. Let's see how we can make it my thing. I just am very difficult. So like when, you know, and I wonder sometimes if I got that from Sally. Maybe. I wonder if I got it from her. You know, I was young. You're like, she can do it. Why can't I? Why can't I? And it's funny because

she's inspiring. In a way I do have my, my Harry, you know, my Jubu. He did, he does say, he's like, it's cute the way you order. i was like i did it i found someone to brainwash who thought this was acceptable but the thing is i'm really nice about it caitlin when the server comes i go hey girl i'm about to be a pain in the ass i try to set it up so they're not so angry at me that's very considerate of you i want to point out that in the scene where we first see her ordering when she does the devil's work and orders strawberry ice cream on an apple pie toward the end of that scene she's like doing the math to figure out the tip and you find out that she's only tipping 15 percent really she's like so 15 of this makes

my share 690 or something like that and it's like uh what You are a pain in the fucking asshole. You need to tip at least 20. You gotta be going in. 25, I would say. 20 is standard, but because she's so annoying about it, she should have gone the extra mile. Yeah. But she totally cheaped out on that. Poor waitress.

One of the few people of color in the whole movie that's set in new york i know one of those fun versions of new york where there's i guess only white people live here but there are a lot of people who live in that version of new york true like in real life you know like i went to private school in the upper east side and it was like unreal how i'd be like oh the only brown person you know is your nanny that's weird but it's doable if you like don't leave park avenue yeah i suppose so you can make it work good for you i used to live in spanish harlem and was one of only a few white people in my neighborhood so were you proud of yourself i wouldn't go so far as to say that well you have come from b, right? I didn't grow up there. I grew up in rural western Pennsylvania, which is a very white.

Klan country, right? Kind of. Yeah. Like the grand wizard of the Klan sector. I don't know how it works. I am proud to not know how the Klan works. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You definitely should be proud of that.

I am proud of that. Yeah. But he lived in like the next town over. Cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You definitely should be proud of that. I am proud of that. Yeah. But he lived in, like, the next town over. Cool. So. Cool. Yep. And I was like, hey, maybe I shouldn't live here anymore,

and I got the fuck out as soon as I could. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You gotta. You gotta. But, yeah, so, When Harry Met Sally, a very white movie. It's true.

It's funny, because, again, looking back, I think for me it was so 80s. It really exemplifies the 80s to me. You know what I mean? Between their style and then just that kind of romantic comedy. Because really the way it's made, I'm like, oh this could be a play. Do you know what I mean? Because it's really just a series of conversations.

Yeah, a series of conversations. Just a series of conversations against backdrops. And they do well to make New York, it does look pretty at times. But so much of it is just like okay now we're gonna go talk over here now we're gonna talk in here and it's really a movie that relies on timing and like that like witty banter like i feel like you couldn't make that movie now or if you did it would be it would not be in many theaters at all you know what i mean you know in movies now you need so many set pieces and big dance sequence at the end, a la Trainwreck, stuff like that.

But I'm going to take this opportunity now to say that I don't think I like this movie very much. All right, put it out there. Put it out there. It is annoying to me how, sure, it's about interpersonal relationships and stuff like that. I find it kind of boring. I think for a rom-com, there's not that much comedy in it. Not a lot of calm. And, you know, Billy Crystal, I suppose,

is a charming slash annoying character. And, you know, there's some amusing. So is Meg Ryan. Charming slash annoying. But she, I don't find her an inherently funny person right she might have funny lines that she tries to deliver in a funny way that's the problem i won't get into it how they should cast female comics in comedy movies and not actresses who don't know how to but that's only if you actually want the woman to be funny right Meg Ryan's character is pretty much like a shrew or she's like this uptight frigid woman right like she's not really funny the whole idea it

or not whole idea but it feels like what happens is Billy Crystal's supposed to loosen her up yeah right like he gets to be the funny one and she's like no but that's such an annoying trope that keeps happening in rom-coms like why can't a woman be one of the funny people in the movie it's so that's what bothers me about a lot of rom-coms where it's like this uptight woman and she has to be kind of broken down by this guy who comes along and i'd rather and i think this is a symptom of one of the things we talk about on this podcast where women are just often pigeonholed into these like specific roles or tropes or archetypes where they're like i'm on this type of person so i really like in a movie where a woman character is funny and like has funny lines to say and makes me laugh because you don't see that

that often yeah no definitely but uh sorry to go on a rant. No, that was not a rant. You can't, you know, no, it's not a rant if you talk for more than 30 seconds. It's a rant if you yell for more than five minutes. Oh, sure. Do you see the difference? I see the difference. I think ranting really requires a level of yelling and intensity. I can yell.

I'll yell. Because I feel like we say we're ranting to apologize for having an opinion that we want to explain no you're fine I get it I have a problem with manic pixie dream girls I can't take a white girl with a bang

running around trying to teach somebody very annoying trope like I can't and especially like it can only be like white women who get to have whimsy

in general and then also just the idea of that woman who's just like I'm so free coming to my world. And it's like, bitch, how do you pay bills? You know what I'm saying?

Right. And that's one of the, I feel like that's a newer one. That's like of, I feel like it's of the 2000s. Yes. If you think about like a lot of 90s, it tended to be a woman who was more like tough or was like 10 things I hate about you. You know, she's a tough girl. And then some guy comes along and teaches her to let love in. Right. girl and like yep and then some guy comes along and teaches her to let love in right you know and then it became an uptight guy and then like a whimsical girl who like sleeps on angels wings

right yes i find that trope very annoying would you like some we're examining the wine that i brought let me point out that it is in a plastic bottle yep uh. I am drinking Crane Lake Chardonnay, except it's not Crane Lake Chardonnay. This is Trader Joe's two-buck chuck that I put inside the plastic bottle that I saved because it's a great amount for a podcast. Reduce. Reuse. Get drunk. What? Oh, man.

What were we talking about? We were talking about you not Let's get into it. We were talking about you not liking When Harry Met Sally. Yeah. So, I don't think it's terrible. I like that a woman wrote it, Nora Ephron. Love Ephron. She's always having a good time.

But I think the problem with this movie for me is that it's, for starters, very heteronormative. Oh, yeah. Which, of course, most rom-coms are but this movie is heteronormative to the point where it's like men and women can't be friends because i've never heard of a gay person and there's no such thing as relationships between a gay man and a straight woman or vice versa like discounting that relationship dynamic entirely also just the idea that even two hetero people a hetero guy and girl can't be friends because this movie sort of at least popularized the idea that men and women can't have a platonic relationship because they're just going to

want to fuck each other which i don't know maybe i'm being naive but also i have no a bunch of platonic friends it's just like a very and maybe it was like well it is a thing of 1989 when this movie came out but i just i mean it is very dated and i think it i mean definitely you know dated conservative i think it was of its time in that sense of like, what, like, can you think of any mainstream movie that didn't take like a really basic, hard, cis, of that era? Yeah,

of that era. Not mainstream, no. You know, exactly. I feel like, well, this is going to get made.

And again, I'm like, did it start as a play down in the West Village? Do you know what I mean? It's also, it's also a movie to me where the audience is the characters. The audience are white people in their like 30s or 40s

who are upwardly mobile, liberal-ish. You know what I mean? Like it is that tribe. And yet, like I feel like when I was like 13 or 14, when I couldn't be friends with boys, like every guy I was like near,

I was like, oh, I want you to be my boyfriend. Like that, it made sense to me at the time. Definitely. Do you know what I mean? Because it was like, oh, I want you to be my boyfriend. Like that, it made sense to me at the time. Definitely. Do you know what I mean? Because it was like, I just had crushes all the time on every, I was so thirsty. And this is like a movie about thirst, you know?

And it really spoke to me as a teen. It's funny because I watched it recently with my fiance who had never seen it. And we watched it and I was just like, gotta love it. I was just like, it is so cheesy, but it like takes me back to this time in my life where like it was the most romantic cutest sweetest thing you know what i mean it's one of the quintessential rom-coms to this day it's got some witty it's got some pithy banter like they do have a good rhythm because again it is a stage play so like the only way it's gonna work is if they kind of have a little something going.

Sure. And I think they do to keep you going. And there's a moment, you know, it's like, but it's very, I did find when I was watching it this last time, it did feel like it didn't, nothing happened. It felt very like, okay, so when are they going to get together?

So when is it going to happen? And maybe it's just because we live in 2017 right now as we are recording this. I know listeners are going to keep going back to this. Right. Right now it might be 2045. It might be 2168 right now. And this podcast has stood the test of time.

Yeah, it survived the singularity, certainly. Right. So all of you machine-slash-robots who have human consciousness uploaded into your microchip in your head, all of you guys listening out there, things were a bit different in 1989. Right, right, right, right. There were genders. They weren't fluid.

There was no spectrum. Everything was very binary very binary so yeah like we mentioned this movie is not necessarily aging well but i think it's also i think it's also for me too i think it's the new yorker in me right like those cute little like pretty shots and moments were like i know that place i know that place you know and being like oh i can't wait till i'm an adult in new y York and I'm walking around with my boyfriend. And then we're doing this and that and the other. You know, and then I found a Jewish man who won't bring a Christmas tree into our house.

Oh, I'm sorry. So that dream died. Let's talk about the fake orgasm scene. Oh, the famous fake orgasm. Yeah. Maybe it's because Meg Ryan isn't particularly sexualized that much throughout this movie, which is a thing that I like about it. Yeah. Maybe it's because Meg Ryan isn't particularly sexualized that much throughout this movie, which is a thing that I like about it. Yeah.

You know, a lot of movies are like, oh, we have a woman character in this? Better put her in a midriff top and make sure she's got giant tits and have her not say anything. So at least they didn't do that to our little Meg Ryan. But for her to like fake an orgasm in a diner in like a pretty non-sexy way, like she's just like, I feel like she does. There's some like weird guttural, like,

Oh yes. It's so funny to me. Well, to me, what also had made no sense that her character would do that. Totally. An uptight woman like her who, like, suddenly you're making orgasm sounds in public. That's the type of thing a manic pixie dream girl would do. Yeah. But not, like, uptight.

No, not her. No way. Sally Albright would never. Uh-uh. Yeah. So I was kind of like, what are you doing? What's become of you? And then the way she just goes back to eating all smug.

I'll have it cheese-having. And wasn't that Rob Reiner's mom? Oh, was it? And it's like the most famous line in the movie. Like apparently overseas it was the most popular thing to ever happen. So, okay, so we have a few female characters to talk about. By the way jamie's still not here we've been talking for a good how long has it been aristotle 40 minutes jamie for some

reason double booked a thing where i think she's it's not a photo shoot but she needs to have photos taken of her i'm not. She's helping out a friend. Great for her. I'm having a great time with you so far. In fact, if Jamie comes in, I'm going to be like, you know what? Stay out. I'm going to be like, you know what? Stay out. You missed it.

We don't need Jamie. Although, I miss her. Do you feel like you need Jamie? Do you feel like you need Jamie? Because she's really protesting too much. You know? She's really saying how she doesn't need Jamie, which leads me to believe she needs Jamie. Hey, there's some subtext there, maybe.

So we've got Marie, which is Carrie Fisher, and not her mother. Why did I do that? The internet is going to rip me apart. No, it's okay. So in terms of the portrayal of the women characters in this movie, they're only ever... I mean, we'll get into this later

about whether or not the movie passes the bechdel test but there are a number of women characters and they do talk to each other that's great but the whole thing and this is about this what this movie is about it's about romance it's about hetero romantic relationships specifically between harry and sally so it makes sense that they'd be talking, like if women are talking, that they'd be talking about men. But only? But right, exactly. And even when Sally and like her friend Marie or her friend Alice are talking, every single

thing, it's just frustrating to have a portrayal of women where basically the only thing that's important to them at least as far as we can tell is their relationship to men like what does sally do for a living exactly like we see her in what looks at one point i'm like are you a stewardess she has like this outfit with like a like an ass not an ass scop and not a tie scarf yeah and so at first i was like are you a stewardess i was like no like you're so it's a with like an ass, not an ass scop, but not a tie. Old scarf. Yeah. And so at first I was like, are you a stewardess? I was like, no.

Like you're supposed to be some business lady. She had a very nice apartment, but it's like, what do you do? Right, okay. So she is a journalist, she says.

She is a journalist. But we don't know what kind, what sort of things she covers. She did in the opening scene, she's like, I'm gonna go be a journalist. I'm gonna go to journalism school. She did say she was gonna be a journalist. And then when they meet again on the opening scene she's like i'm gonna go be a jerk i'm gonna go to

journalism school she's gonna be a journalist and then when they meet again on the plane he's like did you oh you were gonna be a gymnast and she said she's like journalist and he's like yeah that's what i said which is i guess a funny joke but no it's not sorry nor efron but she i guess had a goal and set out to do it and did it. But then we don't know anything about her job. Granted, we don't know anything about the other guy. Like, Harry is a political analyst or consultant or something like that. I would have loved to just see anyone at their job. Right.

We have Marie and Jess talk about writing. Yeah. Right? Like, he gets, like, we talk about his work. And then, of course, it's that she loves his work. But he talks about his work. Oh, that scene is so annoying to me. You know?

But then, what else is anyone ever doing? Are you pursuing anything with your time? Right. It's all about getting that D. It's what this movie is about. I told you it's a movie about thirst. Yeah, totally. That scene where they're on, like, the double date when they're trying to set each other up with...

Sally's trying to set up Harry with Marie. Yeah. And Harry is trying to set up Sally with Jess. And then it ends up that Marie and Jess go together. Marie and Jess have it. They've got the same haircut. They can share all sorts of product. It makes sense.

They do have... And Jamie isn't here to corroborate this, but Jamie Loftus has the loftest test or the loftest role where the baldest woman is in charge. Carrie Fisher in this movie is the baldest. She has the shortest hair. Right, right. But I wouldn't say she's in charge. So this movie does not pass the loftest test.

But that scene drives me crazy where she's like, first of all, she says a quote that makes no sense, at least drives me crazy where she's like first of all she says a quote that makes no sense at least to me where she's like restaurants are in the 80s what to what theater is in the 60s or something right right and i'm like what do you mean by that she's like i read that in at least i wrote that have her be like that's a thing that i thought on my own and then if they have parallel thinking then it's not so much of like a jerk off moment for him. He's like, I wrote that and you liked it. I've never had someone quote back to me. I've never quoted an article before.

Oh, God, we're so in love. So just a moment like that where like it could be more like they just have the same opinion about something where it's actually her regurgitating crap. Right, right, right. And he's just like, oh, I'm coming. I'm due. It's so annoying that, like, that dynamic isn't more equal where they're just like, oh, I'm a woman with my own thoughts. And here's a thing that I think. And I'm a man with my own thoughts.

And we happen to agree on this. It's just annoying to me. And it's just like. What does Marie do? We have no just like. What does Marie do? We have no fucking idea. What does Alice do? No clue. This is what I'm talking about.

What they do is thirst for men. Yes. They sit around. My favorite, Marie has a Rolodex. Right. Which I was like, again, it's like so 80s. Like the fact that there was even a physical Rolodex. And then when it was like, he's married. she like takes the name and just folds the corner down like married he's not gone from

the rolodex she believes he will be a viable option later because she's all into married men yeah she's just like i gotta she probably yeah she's got that system yeah fold the corner down this one will just be a little harder can you just imagine carrying a rolodex just carrying a rolodex in your purse with just all your information i just thought that was so funny it was again of a time when that was what you did she could have just had a date book right no she had a physical giant rolodex that scene is so funny because it lasts probably five minutes and they literally only talk about four or five different men right in this scene but kind of hearkening back to the conversation about what do these people do for a living specifically yeah it just would have been nice

to have them i mean sure the movie is about relationship, but throw in a fucking few subplots about a career aspiration she has or a relationship with her mom or something like that. Just something where it's just not all about thirsty people trying to fuck. I want to see her or them be good at something. That's the other thing. That's the other thing, That's the other thing too. Because it feels like she is an uptight woman. They only pretty

much, I don't know, they're very interior and it's kind of like, do you do anything for anybody else? Do you have any interest? Are you good at anything? Because to me, she is so type A that I need to see where that helps her. Anywhere. Do you know what I mean? Because I'm like like this is not serving you in life right and then you somehow then just

like do a fake orgasm in a diner so out of character what right like is she an investigative journalist where she has to like go and really sort of be like hound people yeah that would make sense for her character and then also like show a different side of her show a little dimension for her yeah but we really only see these pretty one-dimensional characters to be fair both the men and the women are presented as pretty equally one-dimensional yeah so that's just sort of a problem with writing in general again sorry noraron, but am I going to write a script with my master's degree in screenwriting? Yes.

That shows people with a little more dimension? Yes. Yes, I am. Excellent. I just have to get the motivation to do that. It's hard. If you can save a Crane Lake bottle and refill it with three buck Chuck for later,

you can sit down and write this screenplay. You're a motivated woman. Thank you. I really needed that pep talk. Do you have any final thoughts about the movie, how it portrays women,

anything at all? You know, as you said, though, everyone is pretty much two-dimensional. They really are archetypes. You know, as you said, though, you know, everyone is pretty much, like, two-dimensional. They really are archetypes. It, for me, is, like, comfort is the wrong word, but it's, like, one of those things you can, like, always have on in the background. Do you know what I mean?

Like, movies or TV shows where you're, like, oh, yeah, that's happening. And then you just turn around and you're, like, ooh, foliage. And they're, like, fun, chunky sweaters. And then you're done, you know? And those little interstitials with the couples are, like, thing someone told me recently that they're not real they were actors and i thought they were real couples that they interviewed and like if that's true that they're actors like the movie's dead to me so i you know yeah i just assume they were actors see i assume that she like you know put out an ad give me old couples with fun stories well it's like none of them half of the couples like again the woman's not talking or like they're not looking at people

like they look so regular that i could just be because they're 80 years old and like if they at one point were hot they're now 80 i know but i'm just like oh anyway if they're now 80. I know, but I'm just like, ugh, anyway, if they're actors, then I think the movie's lost its... I mean, I think their stories, their scenes were a little too rehearsed and tidy to have been real people actually recounting real stories. Maybe the stories were real, maybe... I think you just roll it a few times and you edit.

I mean, because Lord knows an old person knows how to repeat themselves. You know what I'm saying? They'll tell a fucking story from like 50 years ago. Sure. The same way every time and tell it to you like you never heard it before. Yeah, that is true. Not to say that all old people have dementia.

Hashtag not all old people. It's not about dementia. I'm just like, oh my God, you can't say a word. You can't say a word anymore. Less dementia, more dimension. how about that hollywood that makes no sense i loved it no i loved it it was great you know it's like restaurants are to people in the 80s what theater was to people in the 60s exactly i know exactly what you mean when you say that yeah so we've checked in with jamie doesn't appear as though she will make it in time to do the things we do on this episode,

which is to determine whether or not it passes the Bechdel test, rate the movie. So we'll do those things without her. So let's talk about whether or not the movie passes the Bechdel test. We've already sort of hinted at a number of scenes where women are talking. I have detailed every single one I went through and made notes about every scene where a woman talks to another woman. Yep. So I'm just going to kind of go through each one and I'll be like, hey, does this pass or no?

So it happens right away when Sally talks to her friend who we later learn is named Amanda. She's like the college friend whenever they're about to embark on their road trip. She's making out with Harry. Sally's sitting in the car, and she's just like, and then Amanda goes, oh, hi, Sally. Sally, this is Harry Burns. Harry, this is Sally Albright.

That does not pass the test. No, it does not. It's introducing a man. Introducing a man, and Sally doesn't really respond to that or say anything. That's not a conversation. That one does not pass. Then the next scene is they're like on the road trip. They stop at a diner.

This is when Sally orders disgusting bullshit strawberry ice cream on her apple pie. Just don't even say it again. Don't even say it again. I'm vomiting. I'm frothing at the mouth in disgust but you know she's being all like i went into the chef salad and apple pie on the i'm a privileged picky bitch i just want everything my way so she's talking to the waitress ordering this yes but that waitress does not have a name no and she just says okay yeah she's just like they're talking about food so if we knew the waitress's name because they

have an exchange but because we don't know the waitress's name and that's one of the caveats of the version of the bechdel test that we adhere to on the bechel cast i say it does not pass right so next one the airplane scene sally is ordering again from a flight attendant and she's like bloody mary mix do you have it just kidding i barely want any of it i want mostly tomato i'd like a raw tomato muddled with a splash of soda. Get a mortar and pestle and crush up the tomato and then put some vodka in it. And that's the Bloody Mary I want. So that obviously does not pass because we don't know the flight attendant's name, even though there's a tiny little bit of an interaction there. Next scene.

The hilarious scene where they're at lunch. Sally, Marie, and Alice. And that's the one we already talked about, where they talk about like six different men. Right. Literally nothing else. Exactly. They don't talk about a single other,

there's no other conversation topics besides Joe, the guy that Marie is trying to fuck even though he's married. Alice says some shit that's about men, and then Marie pulls out her Rol some shit that's about men. And then Marie pulls out her Rolodex. For more men! For more men. So obviously does not pass.

At least we know those characters' names. That helps. I guess. And then the next scene is Sally and Marie in the bookstore when Harry comes into

her life again. Marie's like, my married boyfriend just bought a nightie. Again, talking about him. And then they talk about Harry. And then Marie immediately runs out of the scene. Then the scene where they're on the double date.

Even before that, Marie's talking about the dude who won't leave his wife. Talking about a man. Then on the date, they don't even talk to each other. Right, right, right. And then after the date they don't even talk to each other right right right and then after the date they talk about whether or not to go home with the men yeah yeah marie's like do you mind if i go home with jess i do kind of like that scene because they're both like harry and sally are both like harry's in a fragile place and sally's sad about her breakup and so maybe you don't reject them right now and then jess is like i'm gonna get a

cab and she's like i'm coming with you so that's funny i didn't enjoy that that one attempted a joke i like caitlin will allow it caitlin will allow it i permit it now we've got the wagon wheel table scene marie asks sally if she likes the table sally does not respond she shakes head. So there's no verbal communication there. So far we're at none of these scenes pass the test. There's a few more. Fingers crossed. Let's see.

There's the party where they play Pictionary. Sally's apparently not good at anything. Because she sucks at drawing. Someone says, we don't know who it is, but someone's like, where's the bathroom? And Marie says, down the hall. I love these recreations.

But we don't know who says that because we don't even see her speak on screen. And then afterwards, Sally and Marie are talking about Harry's date, which, okay. Right, it's not about a man. It's not about a man, but it's about the man's new girlfriend. So I'm not really sure how to handle this. Because she's like, Emily, she's young.

She makes desserts. She's Aunt Emily? That Emily? Emily. She's like famous for her desserts. Right. So we know what she does for a living and she's successful.

Yeah. But she doesn't say anything. Right. So I'm not really sure. This one might be a pass because they talk about a woman. But again, if you really dig deeper, they're only talking about her because they're talking about what Harry's up to and who he's dating. So it's still sort of about him. Yeah.

So that one's a shrug. Yeah. Hard to say. Let's go back to it because this happens a few more times where Sally is at Marie's wedding dress fitting.

Ah, yes. Hideous 80s dress. Oh, God. Disgusting. So bad. And they're talking about Harry and then they're talking

about another of Harry's new girlfriends and then Marie says, oh, she's thin, pretty, big tits. Your basic nightmare. Which, okay, why do you have to shame her for how she looks for no reason? Why do we need to talk about women that way? We don't.

I'm yelling now. It's a rant. I'm screaming. And then they talk about her dress. And she's like, you think and she's like oh marie and it's like she literally thinks it's so beautiful she cries and it's literally one of the ugliest things i've ever seen and she's like tell the truth it's just beautiful so i guess we'll give that one a pass although they're talking about the dress that she's gonna get married to a man in okay well i don't know about all this but i'm gonna say that it seems like why they don't pass though

for both the like girlfriend emily thing and the dress thing that they're those are just moments in a larger conversation like so they're never having one single scene that does not include right the guy is subject yep that's a good point uh there's a few after this at marie's wedding sally and alice are talking and they're talking about marie i've never seen her so happy oh yeah she's so happy it's great and then well what are you gonna do about you and that's a conversation And then a guy immediately comes and pulls Alice away. Like, let's dance. So I suppose, again, because they're talking about Marie. And no men are mentioned in that conversation.

A man does swoop in and literally drag Alice away. Alice's husband wants her to dance. Jesus. That one's also a pass question mark. Then they're at the New Year's Eve party. Sally says to Marie, I'm going home. And Marie says, you'll never get a taxi. And then she turns back to her conversation that she's having with a dude and keeps fake laughing at his stupid joke.

Take a sketch writing class. Learn how to tell a fucking joke dude and then later on sally's like i'm gonna go and marie's like but it's almost midnight and she's like what but the thought of not kissing someone is just that to me does not pass because she's like i'm leaving because there's no one for me to kiss yeah there's no man for me to kiss here there's no one for me to kiss i'm a failure so of these what did i say eight or more conversations throughout the movie between women only like one of them is one or two of them is just like a sort of maybe kind of question mark it's upsetting that they couldn't have done a better job with this or made it more clear as it was

written by a woman right i think that's the other issue although who knows how many writers out there are writing movies with the bechdel test in mind well in 1989 probably no one because this was barely a thing back then yeah it's not surprising it's just frustrating that there were so there were a bunch of conversations between women but because they almost exclusively talk about men or if their conversation is about a woman it's in the context of who is she to that man right so i'm gonna give it a like a barely pass oh i was gonna say no but okay you but okay. You're the professional. You're the professional. You know, like I'm new. Well, let's go with no.

Let's do it. This movie does not pass the Bechdel test. The end. You heard it here first. I think we've made a good case for it not passing. I think so. I think you really broke it down. Thank you.

So let's rate the movie on our nipple scale. All right. We rate the movie on a scale of zero to five nipples they are generally human nipples but if you want them to be cat nipples that's okay too then you're three nipples short right we rate it based on the portrayal of women i'm gonna give it a one yeah yeah i mean i get it i get it think I'm going to have to agree with you for going by portrayal. Yeah. One, because, and again, like this is what this movie is about, but also there are plenty

of rom-coms out there where the pursuit of a romantic interest or a romantic relationship is the main plot, but there's still other things. There's other things at stake. There's subplots where the character has a career thing, a career goal, or a friendship where they don't just talk about the man. Like, it's just because every single moment in this movie is sort of framed in how a woman is gonna try to fuck a man,

and a man's gonna try to fuck a woman, and can they be friends? And no, because that's not a thing, according to try to fuck a man and a man's going to try to fuck a woman. And can they be friends? And no, because that's not a thing. According to this movie, even though I could name 20 men who I'm friends with, who I don't want to have sex with. And I don't know whether or not they want to have sex with me,

but probably not. I'm a wretched person. Caitlin. But I think that this movie made up a rule that is horse shit and it's problematic. But anyway. Do you have any final thoughts about the movie? Anything you want to say?

I mean, no. It's definitely ruined a great part of my childhood for me. So I appreciate that. Thank you very much. You're welcome. Really sobering, you know. But it is just really great to know that there's someone else who's also disgusted by strawberry ice cream and apple pie. So thank you for that.

I cannot get over it. But Naomi, thank you so much for being here. Thank you. Where can people follow you online? Holler at me on Twitter at Blacktress. Hell yeah. You know it. Thanks for taking the time to be here. It was such a treasure to talk

to you about When Harry Met Sally. Our whole conversation pretty much passed the Bechdel test here today. So yay for us. We were talking about a movie. We did it. Alright, thank you. Bye. The Bechdel cast. It's me. Alright, thank you. Bye. Bye.

It's me, Caitlin, and Jamie. I'm just poking my head in. You're poking your head in? Just poking my head in, saying, hey, wait a second. I was dancing with a kid when I should have been doing the podcast. It's okay. I forgive you entirely. We've got busy lives. So, we talked about When Harry Met

Sally, but you and I have not talked about it. So let's do that now. Okay. So I first saw When Harry Met Sally a year and a half ago. Oh, pretty recent. Pretty recent. And it was at the insistence of a guy I was dating who insisted it was just my kind of movie. Turned out it wasn't, and he was not the kind of person i wanted to be spending my time with

so a lot of hard lessons learned in this journey we call life but i hadn't seen it but i did when i saw it already know a lot about and really loved nora efron so i have like a tricky i know i'm inclined to want to give this movie more breaks than it deserves because I love her so much. Sure. Yeah. Well, I spend a few different moments of the episode saying something mean about her writing and then apologizing to her. Her ghost. Hey, speaking of ghosts. That was a fun one. Yeah.

We actually mention it a bit on this episode. Hell yeah. So go back and listen okay we'll do what were your thoughts about the portrayal of women in harry met sally okay i hate harry harry's the worst i love billy crystal i hate harry and um. I feel like, I don't think that she's a bad character, but I think she's fucked over in every conceivable way by the plot and by all the powers that be in the movie. She's fucked over in every single way,

and half of the time it's made out to look like they're doing her a favor when they're actually fucking her over. Wait, can you give an example? Well, like, okay. So one of the examples is they set the precedent right at the top with the documentary, like, old couples talking. And women don't even talk in half of those talking hands. A lot of them.

It's very passive. And so we're set up at the top of, like, this is true love, so whoever the female counterpart is in this movie is going to be, you know, forced into that thing that they set up at the top. It's weird because it's like Sally has a life. She has a job. She writes for like New York Magazine, right? Well, we don't know. That's one of the things we talked about.

We hardly know anything about her life outside of her relationship with Harry. Right, right right right and it's i do she's a professional writer of some she's a journalist but that's pretty much all we know right and then there's the what's the guy who's not harry who's also a journalist who jess yes who never shuts the fuck up about his job and so we know all about his journalism and it's like but we can't know like, what is Sally working on? What does she write about? What kind of journalist is she?

What's her beat? Like, we don't know, you know, and she's made out to be like a bitchy professional, but we barely know what she does. So that pisses me off even though it's like i trust that the character is doing the job and is self-sufficient but it's just like the story does not seem to care to let us into anything right outside of harry harry is a toxic piece of garbage obviously they shouldn't end up together well and then there's just like the big theme of like men and women can't be friends which is wrong right that i spent a lot of time talking about that how it's a very like outdated heteronormative wrong notion when i was re-watching and then i was reading a little

bit there's a great piece that came out over five years ago now on split cider by a great writer who I think is at the New Yorker now we know what she does her name is Blythe Roberson and she's great and she wrote this pretty comprehensive piece on a number of the reasons why it's not a feminist masterpiece but one thing I learned from reading that was that in the original ending, Nora Ephron and Rob Reiner had them just stay friends. That would have been a toxic friendship.

Well, I would have liked that ending so much more. And that's another problem with Sally for me is like she, the version of Sally I have in my head wouldn't end up with him. I think the version of Sally in i have in my head wouldn't end up with him i think the version of sally in my head would stay his friend but even right then stop answering texts after a while right ghost on him kind of inspired by the movie well we were talking about this kind of

recently yeah uh about like how do you remove yourself from a friendship that is just like, ooh, this is a very negative thing in my life? That seems like the more realistic problem for them to have to deal with. Clearly, they have a connection. They have history. I get that they're friends. Even then, I'm like, the friendship, that's got to end at some point or change because it too is very toxic well like with a lot of hollywood movies there's a huge emphasis placed on the romantic relationship and making sure it works out so they have to end up together at the end and even if it doesn't make sense for the story or the characters and i would

have loved for it to have them not end up at the end because it would have proved his theory wrong because it's wrong it's confusing to me because it's like i have to feel to to keep my world afloat i have to feel that nora efron knew this knew that this message is a commercial message and not true to anything right because she uh nora efron's so fucking cool and she she was subtweeting before twitter existed she's the most passive-aggressive person in the entire history of the world but so uh gosh because she was married to carl bernstein of woodward and bernstein oh he completely fucked her over you know cheated on her all this horrible stuff and then she spent years just subtweeting him via very high grossing movies and like it's great and i love like her like core

tenant is that everything is copy and so she you know, a bit of a bridge burner in terms of like, oh, if you fuck me over, go to the movie theater in a year and a half and you can see how much I fucking hate you. But that, to me, I'm like, that's cool. That's Nora Ephron in a crew cut lady kind of way was very punk rock. I didn't know that much about her. So I like, yeah. It's a great documentary about her.

If you can convince your little brother to give you his HBO Go password check it out that's my blanket advice hey you don't have a little brother too bad get one grow up make sure he gets an HBO Go password and then steal it from him yeah your little brother probably has student discounts

that's what my little brother has well this movie also sort of perpetuates this idea that sex is going to complicate everything in a friendship, which sure, I'm sure it does in some cases. And I'm sure in other cases, it doesn't. I know this from experience where I've had friendships or like sort of budding romantic relationships where we've had sex. Mom, I've had sex before. Oh, Lord.

Lori. Lori, we're so sorry to tell you this way. But no, I've had like, you know, budding romantic situations where I have had sexual intercourse with that person. That's my new ringtone. Sexual. Sexual intercourse. And we ended up not continuing to date, but we kept as friends. Like we didn't keep having sex.

I have a number of people I can say this about. Also, my best friend of 12 or more years is a man who i've never had sex with is it because he's gay 50 as i would say it's not because he's not handsome because jt is so handsome check out his episode about twilight hot babe on the loose look out yeah it's just this movie's operating by these like very archaic standards and and and it's like there's no excuse for it but i'm gonna try and make one like even if they acknowledged inside of that very narrow-minded ideology but we're not saying that no man and woman can ever be friends but sometimes it can blow up a friendship which is not as fun a thesis statement to make so you can't do it but it's like you know

obviously we've all had friendships that have been obliterated by by making an intercourse you mean sexual intercourse? Sexual intercourse. But then there's other friendships where you're just like, oh, that was weird. Let's go back to never doing that anymore. Spoken from life. Right. Ripped from the pages of my own life.

Hey, sorry about that. Coming from two. Don't come with your friends. Or do whatever you want. Follow your heart. I mean, most of my problems with the movie are in like the first and last ten minutes. Where it sets you up in this very narrow-minded, completely not true to reality. You know, men be this, women be this.

And then at the end, they're like, well, in spite of men be this, women be this. Men be this and women be this and then at the end they're like well in spite of men be this women be this men be this and women be this right and now they are fucking and it's just like well they get married like four months later some horseshit no way does that marriage work out or it does and they're fucking miserable yeah like there's no way that marriage works out well in context this movie came out what 89 yeah that's i guess people i mean people are still getting married for dumb dumb fucking reasons today but more so than i don't know yeah i just feel like this movie it's weird because nora efron is everything that this movie is not communicating. I mean, I don't know a whole lot about the influence of the studio kind of thing about this movie.

But, you know, sometimes there's like, well, they have to end up together. Because this is Hollywood, baby. I think that's why the ending changed. Yeah. But that's still, there's still like what they set you up with at the beginning. Like, I didn't remember how weird the documentary part is like with you're just like oh women they're just they're not really participants in this often not at all right uh did we talk about carrie fisher at all we did yes we mostly just talked about how her entire existence is framed around the men that she's involved with. First, the guy who won't leave his wife for her, and then Jess. Oh, and I had a real problem with the scene where she bonds with Jess because she read and quoted back to him something he had written that makes no sense about theater and restaurants. Yeah. and quoted back to him something he had written that makes no sense about theater and restaurants. And I was annoyed that, like, it would be great if she came up with an opinion on her own,

and then he had also the same opinion, and that's how they bonded. But she was just like, here's the thing I'm going to say. I read it in a magazine. He's like, I wrote that in that magazine. And she's like, let me come for you. Right. Right. Everyone in this movie could be doing much better.

Except for Harry, who should have died at some point in Act 1. And then we could have experienced something less toxic. And Harry is such a horrible character. And it's not even worth discussing all the ways in which he's horrible they're not compatible it drives me nuts in a movie where there's a woman and then there's a man near her and they're both long enough he literally wears her down and they're like isn't this romantic and you're just like no so often you see you have no idea why two characters like or love each other apart from the fact that they both want to fuck each other and they just happen

to be near each other quite a bit like well their names are in the tide so it's just so often that no time is spent developing their relationship and why they might be compatible to me harry and sally they make no sense together they have widely different personalities and takes on life and it makes no sense why they'd somehow be soulmates or whatever i think harry needs to be passed away in act one but i also think that you know realistically it's like that's someone that I think Harry needs to be passed away in Act 1. But I also think that, you know, realistically, it's like that's someone that you've got. He's got to find like a really like aggressive partner who will just fucking steamroll him and put him in his place. Because otherwise he's just going to be an asshole all the time like he is to Sally. Right.

Sally needs someone who, I don't know, what is she? We don't know anything about her really. So so hard to say who she should be with. A better version of this movie would be if Harry, if they met, thus the title, Act One, Harry dies in a tragic choking accident. Maybe he tries some of her apple pie with strawberry ice cream on it. And he's like, oh God, it's's so disgusting and then chokes and dies and then someone's like i'll have what he's having and then she's like oh i'm a journalist let me pursue this career and then the whole movie is about her life as a journalist i just yeah i wish i knew more about her to uncover who deep throat is or who the whole nixon's i know it's not the right era listen but talking about nixon's gonna be triggering for nora efron because she was married to carl bernstein that's

why i'm saying that yeah gotta leave nixon leave Nixon out of it. Unless she felt emotionally prepared to really roast Woodward and Bernstein. She would know about that. You would be great if Nora Ephron hated Carl Bernstein so much that she wrote a whole screenplay that was like, Nixon was good. And Woodward and Bernstein

never should have done those things that they did Carl Bernstein sucks I'll do that for her yeah pour one out for her hey do you want to rate the movie yeah I'm gonna give it two I know I know I know I'm gonna give it two because I love Nora Ephron so much I think that Sally has potential like extreme potential as a character that we should know more about and has all the you know she's like a rough outline of a good female character with no shading or color or other art metaphors so I'll give it to Carrie Fisher, Rest in Paradise.

Her character stinks, though. And Billy Crystal is a toxic piece of garbage. But boy, can the man host an Oscar ceremony. I give it to their Nora Ephron's dead nipples. I didn't assign my nipples to anyone. Oh, wait. Here's your chance. Now's my chance.

You just got the one, though, right? I gave it one nipple it belongs to alice who gets almost no screen time we barely even know who she is why is she even there i mean great that there's another female character does she only ever talk about men yes like literally only it's also we concluded the movie does not pass the bechdel test oh no it doesn't i i have no argument yeah i was a few scenes where i was like well they talk about her wedding dress or they talk about i i don't know i was so like frustrated by the time i was like it's a hetero wedding. Doesn't count. Alright, well that has been our episode in

barely. That was when Carolyn met Naomi. Right. And then when Jamie showed up an hour late. I was ghost. In this one. But even though we didn't really intersect, we still had a great time i've had a

great time here today i look forward to listening to it yay yeah you can follow us the bechtel cast on social media at bechtel cast on twitter on instagram facebook and if you like our episodes, if you want to really alleviate some of our production costs for the episodes that you listen to for free, you could, if you want to, donate us some money on our PayPal. It would really help us out. We'd really appreciate it. You can go to paypal.me backslash Bechtelcast. Give us a couple dollars.

Give us $8,000. Those are your choices. Anywhere between a couple and $8,000 would really do a lot for us. No, but we appreciate it. Thank you to everyone who has donated. Feel free to set up a recurring donation if you so choose. Oh, certainly. And thanks for your little notes.

We've gotten a lot of notes from people who have been like, love the cast, keep it up. Yeah. So thank you. All right, Jamie, thanks for being here. Oh, my God. We'll see you next time. Oh, my God. Bye. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017 was assassinated. Crooks Everywhere unearths the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the

culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody. This is Matt Rogers. And Bowen Yang. We've got some exciting news for you. You know we're always bringing you the best guests, right? Well, this week we're taking it to the next level. The one, the only

Katherine Hahn is joining us on Lost Culture East. That's right. The queen, the only, Katherine Hahn is joining us on Las Culturistas. That's right, the queen of comedy herself. Get ready for a conversation that's as hilarious as it is insightful. Tune in for all the laughs, the stories, and of course, the culture. Don't miss Katherine Hahn on Las Culturistas. Listen to Las Culturistas

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