The Bechdel Cast - White Chicks with Taylor Garron

Episode Date: October 1, 2026

On this episode, Caitlin, Jamie, and special guest Taylor Garron are 🎵 making their way downtown 🎵 to discuss White Chicks (2004). Follow Taylor on Instagram at @taylorgarron and her website at taylorgarron.com  Don't forget to vote for us for the Signal Listener's Choice Award! And grab your tickets to our upcoming Ten Year Anniversary Tour! All the links you need are at linktr.ee/bechdelcastSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism? The patriarchy's effing vast. Start changing it with the Bechdel cast. Attention, Bechdelcast listeners. We are going on tour. And we know we've been on tour many times over the years. But guess what?

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See you there. Making my way downtown Walking fast Faces past And I'm homebound Is that one of your songs One of my songs? Yeah, were you a Vanessa Carlton

Did they get white women correct? Because for me? Certainly. Certainly, I love Vanessa Carlton. I mean, if I were to lie, I would say, oh my God, yes, totally. This was absolutely one of my songs. But it wasn't.

You were listening to what, slip knot? Honestly, in 2004, yeah. It was a bit of slip knot. It was a bit of, I was, I was into nine inch nails at the time. I was into corn. I forgot you were an alt teen. So cool. God, okay.

It was more that I was just influenced by my older brother's music and I had not really established a personality of my own yet. That is kind of an older brother vibe. Okay, that makes sense. Yeah, yeah. I was a Vanessa Carlton kid. Also, I vividly remember. remember that that song and that music video would play it our local Chuckie Cheese when that song

came out. I don't know. When when when Chuck was on a break, when Chuck was taking five, they threw Vanessa, I remember the music video so vividly. I saw it 500 times against my will. Wow. Or not five, every time I got a good report card, I saw that music video against my well. That was that was your good report card treat, a trip to Chuck E Cheese? Insisted, insisted on going to the rat casino, always have, always will. Welcome to the Bechtel cast. My name's Jamie Loftus. My name is Caitlin Durante. This is our show where we examine movies through an intersectional lens using the Bechtel test simply as a jumping off point. What is it, though, Jamie?

Well, it's so relevant to the conversation today, which is actually kind of true. So it is a media metric created by friend of the show, namesake of the show, Alison Bechtel. There's a lot versions of the test. She originally created it as a one-off joke in her comic collection dikes to watch out for, but it has since been adapted to a more mainstream media metric. Our version of the test requires that two people of a marginalized gender with names speak to each other about something other than a man for more than two relevant lines of dialogue. Jumping off point for discussion, we'll be talking about all sorts of things today. We're kind of going to be doing a dissertation today.

My notes are copious. Truly. I read so many more academic papers on white tricks than you would think is what I'll say. And I've read many of them and I'm thrilled to talk about it with our incredible guest. Let's get her in here. Oh, my gosh. She's a friend of the show and she's a teacher at Abbott Elementary. It's Taylor Garon.

Hi, everyone. Hey, how's it going? Welcome. Welcome. Thank you for having me on. This is a dream come true. This episode has been a long time in the making. Years, truly.

I think we were at a party sometime and we talked about it or something, right? Like three or four years ago. Yeah, and here we are. We made it happen. And here we are. Better late than never. Truly. And we are indeed covering white chicks today, 2004 directed by Keenan Ivory Wains.

This is very much a Wayne's production because Sean and Marlon Wains are in the main role. They are the titular white chicks. Taylor, what is your history with this movie? Okay, so I have an interesting one, and maybe everybody says that. But there was a party at one of my aunt's houses when I was, it had to be, I guess, 2004. So I was pretty young. And all the adults were like downstairs drinking and party in. And so they put all of like the younger people upstairs.

And as a Cape Verdean person who is also raised Catholic, I have like 900 first cousins. It's just like, that's how it goes. And so we were all piled into this one room. And the older cousins who were like probably 15, 16 put on a movie for us. And the movie just happened to be white chicks. Amazing. I don't remember, like, you remember the first time you see, you see movies that like change your life. You know what I mean?

Like the classics. You remember seeing Star Wars in the theater with your dad or like whatever. But this was special in a different way because there are a lot of questions I had. I wasn't a sheltered kid necessarily, but I was certainly like going to church. And like sex things were not something that I was very privy to, kind of drug things weren't really. And it was a coming of age moment for me, especially when my cousins during that one scene covered our eyes, all of our eyes, to the best of their ability. And of course that me, it was very. It was very sweet, and I get what they were trying to do.

But, like, you can't really cover a kid's eyes during a movie and expect them in the big year of 2004 to not figure out another way to go find white chicks and watch that scene. And I did. Did I understand it? Absolutely not. Not for a couple of years. Yeah, if you're listening at home, we'll probably get to that scene at some point. I mean, during Caitlin's famous recap, I'm sure we will. So you saw it pretty soon after it came out.

And then what's been your relationship with it since? Since. Wow. I probably watch it like every other year. It was maybe a once a year thing. Okay. So this movie's a part of your life. It sure is.

And I think that it was maybe like, I think I showed it to some people in college and they were like, this is really offensive. And I was like, yeah, that's the point. Now I kind of watch it as like a touchstone of like what we used to be able to kind of make and get away with. Not that I want to make movies that offend people, but it's like. like, you know, they were just handing out money in back in the industry back in the day. Yes.

Especially if you were away in, I guess. They were like, here's the money. That's a, it's a funny one-off joke. What if two black guys played two white women? 2004, that's like the peak of comedy. People love that. That is high concept comedy. You know what I mean?

So I think I watch it more as just like a, wow, what if I was born like 15 years, 20 years earlier? And I could have made that kind of bullshit. I could be rich. Yeah. It is sort of a time capsule. Right? For that era. Yeah.

100%. Yeah. There's maybe a like 15 year amount of time where this movie can happen. 100%. 2004 is one of those years. And they found it. They did. Jamie, what about you?

What's your history with this movie? This movie, I had seen it in, this is one of the many movies we've covered that I saw in, like, chunks on T&T. over a course of years. I don't know if I've ever actually seen it all the way through, but this is definitely, I feel like that's true for me with most like broad comedies of the 2000s that I have seen were on TNT. This is definitely a TNT movie. Huge. This white chicks got play on T&T. I think more than any other Wayne's Brothers movie I've seen, like even more than scary movie.

But yeah, I remember this movie coming out. I guess I would pair it not thematically, but I would pair it with Borat in like the pantheon of movies that kids quoted a lot in middle school. Like even though I like hadn't actually like seen seen this movie, I was, I mean, it was impossible not to be aware of it. It was so successful. Sure. I knew. I recognized most of the major set pieces from it. This might have been my first full viewing.

But what I remember is the, I think more than more than most, not to. But like I've always been very, very sensitive to uncanny valley stuff. Like there's certain uncanny valley things that are just really challenging. And it's specifically. The animals talking like the animals with CGI mouths talking. 90s and 2000s talking animals that don't blank, but their mouths move horrific. I didn't like the babies and baby geniuses. Exactly.

I really didn't like that. And this isn't that, but I do remember the contacts, the choice of contacts here. Oh, yeah. And I think it's obviously intentional. It's a part of the bit. But there are scenes in this movie where I'm like, they could have brown eyes. Like what? They could have brown eyes.

Like, what? The craziest part of that, Jamie, is that the masks are actually like not that bad. No. They don't freak me out. Like the masks don't freak me out. They're pretty good for the time. It's just the eyes. It's just the eyes for sure.

Then and now, the eyes, the eyes happen. But this movie, I, I, I, I will say, I think that this movie has a lot going on. It has a lot going on. But it has like, I'm really excited to talk about it because we've been talking about a lot of movies in this kind of subcategory this year. We talked about Tootsie. We talked about Mrs. Doubtfire again. We've talked about a lot of male characters disguising themselves as women for a plot-based reason.

Some like it hot, which we covered a few years. years ago. This is a very unique entry into that. And I don't know. I think that would I say it's one of my favorites? Certainly not. But it's doing more than I expected. Caitlin, what's your history with white chicks? Not the like, you know, not the, not the royal white chicks, but the movie white chicks. Right. My history with the movie white chicks is that I had never seen it before prepping for this episode. But I remember the marketing for this movie because this movie was marketed to all hell. This movie had trailer. Yeah, it's the kind of movie you remember the trailer moments when you watch it. Yes. And probably one of the reasons I didn't see it because I was watching

the scary movies, you know, I at the time would have considered myself a fan of the Wayne Brothers movies, but it was the eyes. I, in the trailer, I was like, what the hell is going on? The eyes were terrifying. I couldn't get past it. I was very disturbed. So yeah, I just, didn't see it, never got around to it until now. But I mean, this, this is a rich text. There's a lot to talk about. Yes. I don't have many nice things to say about this movie, but it's trying to do something.

That's what I think. Yeah, it's a swing. It's a swing. Well, why don't we take a quick break and then we'll come back for the aforementioned recap. This record is on. Miley is having a moment. New name, new album, closed and shows. So Iheart Radio is sending you to experience it all.

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Her family never bought it, and the man they suspected wore a badge. You never know who that devil is because he's wearing in disguise. Sometimes it's a police uniform. And you can get access to all episodes 100% ad-free with an IHeart True Crime Plus subscription exclusively on Apple Podcasts, available only to IHeart True Crime Plus subscribers. So don't wait, head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today. I'm former U.S. Women's National Soccer team player, Carly Lloyd.

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But in my head, it was the long game. It was like, I don't care what I'm being asked to do at Fox. I'm going to go get some reps, and I'm going to learn it and love it and embrace it. He said, this group of people will never be in the same room as part of the same team ever again in your life. And it is your job to make sure that you enjoy the moment, proud of what you accomplish together. Listen to whatever it takes with Carly Lloyd and Jenny Taft on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, what's up y'all? It's Questlove. And on the Questlove show, I've been sitting down with some really interesting people.

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This season of my podcast who's with me, I speak with two-time Emmy winner and weirdly one of my best friends, Kevin Avery. Everything up to that point, build you as a comic. us going on the road doing Battle Mountain and Ely Yeah, you took me, you were one of the first people took me on the road, which is funny because at the time I was like, I don't know if I like this guy. With rapper, actor, David Diggs.

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Kumabelle on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. Quick survey, because I'm curious, does everyone have a favorite Wains Brothers movie? I guess that's kind of broad because it's not, my favorite is not directed by a Wains. What's your favorite? Major Payne. Oh, I still haven't seen that one either. I don't know if I've seen that one either.

I can't vouch for it, but I know that I've seen it many times and I liked it. I don't think that there are a lot of Wayne's Brothers movies made before a certain year that I could vouch for. Yes, strictly based on enjoyment. I'll be honest with you, white chicks might be my favorite one. I mean, biannually. It's not necessarily because I'm like, whoa, this change cinema. I need to, you know, rewatch this masterpiece. But I guess it just reminds me of a certain time in my life.

Sure. You know. This is not a Wayans Brothers movie at all, but it does star one of the Wayne's brothers, Marlon Waynes, who is also in this movie, which is the movie Requiem for a Dream. Oh, my God. I totally forgot he was in that. He's in it. I've never seen that.

It is so tonally different than probably everything else he is in. But you realize, like, oh, he's got range. Yeah, Requiem for a Dream and like the pothead guy and scary movie. Right. And a white woman. And it will not. Give this guy an Oscar. The three kinds of characters.

I am. I mean, that is just like something that never stops impressing the world, including me. I'm a part of the world. When a comedian takes a dramatic turn and it works, people love that shit. They love it. More power to them. Yeah. All right.

Well, here's the story of. white chicks. I'm so excited to hear you describe. I can't wait. This is going to be a poem. Okay. Here we go. We meet two brothers, Marcus and Kevin Copeland, played by Real Life Brothers, Marlon and Sean Wayans, respectively.

Both are FBI agents who are working undercover, and we'll talk about the racist caricatures they're doing at the very beginning of the movie. Yeah. And sprinkled throughout. Yes. They are trying to bust a few drug dealers, but they go after the wrong guys and they mess everything up. There's a whole, oh, is it ice cream? Is it cocaine?

And their FBI chief is pissed at them for blowing this operation. Kind of an incredible fight scene just like off the jump. It's pretty fun. Like top of the movie. Like ice cream everywhere. It's kind of fun. It is. Yeah.

I feel like that was more of the thing. thing. Maybe I'm making shit up, but maybe that felt like more of a thing in like the 80s through 2000s like comedies with big action set pieces. Yeah, they're like, okay, let's blow a million dollars in the first two and a half minutes. Let's do it. Just see. Oriographing this fight scene. This movie makes so much more sense when you know that it like is is basically a blank check movie off of the first two scary movies. Like they could have done literally anything and it is fascinating. They sure did. That they choose to do this.

And they sure did. Yeah. I mean, they had a $37 million budget, which doesn't sound that much by today's standards. But for comedy in the early 2000s, that was a pretty sizable budget. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, so they mess up this drug bust and their chief says that if they screw up again, they're fired. So the stakes are high.

Marcus goes home. We meet his wife, Gina. And boy, is this a classic his wife character. We'll get into it. She is nagging him. She leans all the way in, too. She is, like, down to the outfit choices are fascinating. They heavily imply she has nothing to do in her life but worry about where her husband is.

And assume that he's cheating on her 24-7. But he'd never cheat on her babe. No. He's too busy impersonating Paris Hilton. Yeah. So we meet her. She'll come back later on. But then we cut to Marcus and Kevin going into the FBI office. There's a kidnapper on the loose. And the FBI believes this kidnapper's next victims are the Wilson sisters, Brittany and Tiffany. Socialites, daughters of some rich guy who owns the cruise line. Paris Hilton, Tyson, like you said, Jamie. I mean, yeah, it's like so pull, because I believe, like, the simple life was airing when this movie came out.

Topical in a big way. Yeah. Yeah. So the FBI is going to keep their eye on these sisters to make sure they're safe and also try to catch the kidnapper. So I don't know if it's like they're going to, like, just kind of hover over them, using them as bait to try to lure in the kidnapper. It's something like that.

I have to believe. I did not, in all of the research that I did, I did not look into like if there are deleted scenes, there has to be a scene deleted here because they jump to the conclusion that they have no choice but to do this. Like, it's not even a conversation. He's like, I know what we have to do. Josh, then he just shows up and then yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's there's some story logic questions we could have. I kind of think that they probably just weren't expecting their audience to really ask that many questions. And you know what? That's the first time I've ever thought about it. So they were maybe great. Well, there you go. So I come to this place to ask these questions. But also it's like, yeah, if you're sitting in the theater, you're just kind of like, tick talk. Where are the white chicks?

Right. Anything that happens, you're like, exactly. It's so true. Yeah. But there are so many fun like little story logic things where they're like, okay, stay in this hotel all weekend. And the girls are just like, yeah, for sure. Totally. Make sense. Okay. It's great. Okay, so the FBI is trying to catch this kidnapper. The prime suspect is this guy named Ted Burton, a previous associate of rich guy Wilson, but he lost his fortune. And so they think that this guy wants revenge or something.

Again, it's a little foggy. But Marcus and Kevin are assigned to the case. And they go and pick up the Wilson sisters, who are these blonde-haired, blue-eyed like bimbo types, parentheses pejorative. And they are headed to the Hamptons for this big weekend that they're super excited for. It's this huge deal. But on the way, there's this whole mishap with one of the sisters' dogs, and they get into a minor car accident, and each of the sisters gets a small scratch on their face. And they freak out. They're like, we can't go to the Hamptons looking like this, but for reasons, the FBI needs them to go to the Hamptons that weekend.

To lure the kidnapper. And I do appreciate, I forget which brother says this, but he's like, this weekend is so important to them. I'm like, wow, what wild empathy for them. He really feels. I think that's the closest we get to reasoning, and I kind of love that, where he's like, no, these girls need to impress. people at the Hamptons we have no choice we have to become white chicks right now it's great I also do think loki that if they went back to their chief and they were like hey we got into an accident now we like fucked us all up maybe they would be fired again this stakes are high the stakes are high for them right

so yeah Marcus and Kevin like you said Jamie decide to pretend to be these two sisters and go to the Hamptons in their place and a team of makeup artists and stylists and stuff like that show up to turn these two black men into two white chicks. There's wigs, makeup, fake boobs, blue eye contacts that are absolutely terrifying, body paint to lighten their skin, the whole works, and the result is such that you really have to suspend your disbelief that anyone else, any other character in the entire movie would mistake them. Yeah, which is like part of the white chicks of it all.

Sure. That's the fun. Yeah. Yeah. The fact that everyone at the white supremacy lobotomy club is like, wow, good to see you. It's kind of, it's fun. Some of them do get a little suspicious, but it's, it's easily brushed away, explained away. Because they're, they're often chalking it up.

to cosmetic procedures that these Wilson sisters say that they've gotten. The knee lengthening. Yes, which is pretty funny. That's the Pedro Pascal surgery from materials. It's true. It's true. It's the legs, isn't it? The most iconic lines of the 2020s.

Yeah. Okay. So Kevin and Marcus arrive in the Hamptons as Brittany and Tiffany, although I don't, I forget which brother is supposed to be which sister. I don't think it matters. Yeah. Kevin's Brittany, Marcus, is Tiffany. Okay.

Feel free to forget that. I certainly will. Although I might have clarified it later in my notes. We'll find out. Anyway, they arrive in the Hamptons, and now they're suddenly being hit on by a bunch of men, which they do not appreciate. But also, because they are perceived as white,

they realize that they can flex that privilege, and so they do the whole Karen, like, let me speak to your manager thing as they're checking into the hotel. Those bits I thought were very fun is when they're at the hotel desk and he is writing the letter where he's like, dear Mr. Royal Hampton. Yes. I am a white woman in America. It's a great joke.

It's truly like, it's one of my vocal stems. I save myself all the time. When this movie hits, it hits. It sure does. Yeah. I believe there's also a Shrek reference in this. scene if I'm not mistaken. There is. Shrek mania was an all-time high. It was 2004. It is wild to be. I hate that I can remember. I have like Master of Disguise recall like this. But how quickly,

like Master of Disguise came out the year after Shrek and their Shrek references. We really cannot overstate the cultural impact of Shrek. It was moving fast. Immediately. I do remember the Shrek line if you need that. That was something that I, that I reflected upon when I was rewatching this movie to come on this podcast was that I know every line in the movie. I believe it. I asked the doctor to make me look like Gwyneth Paltrow and the doctor made me look like fucking Shrek. Which, okay, another Shrek parallel here. I couldn't help but think that when these guys are in disguise as the white chicks and they're doing like a falsetto voice, they sound like jingy from Shrek to me. I wonder if Jinji was on the vision board.

I hope so. I hope they made a vision board. I hope there was a vision board. As part of transforming into white women, I hope that they made a vision board. Okay, so they check into the hotel in the Hamptons for this big weekend. They are greeted by friends of the Wilson sisters. These are three white women named Karen, Lisa, and Tori, who don't seem to know. that these are not visibly the sisters, but again, they're like, oh, you got collagen,

you got taller via knee surgery, yeah, et cetera. And then they all go to a reception thing at the hotel, hosted by a rich guy named Warren Vandergeld, played by John Hurd, aka the dad from home alone. Oh, wow. Didn't, yeah. Didn't clock that. Wow. That's him.

his daughters are also there this is megan and heather vandergeld who are the wilson sisters sworn enemies there's very much bully dot jpeg type characters yes and these two sets of sisters do a bunch of like yo mama jokes at each other then there's an extended joke i think this is tiffany has to take an enormous dump because Marcus Oh yeah It is Marcus who is Tiffany Marcus is lactose intolerant And he was eating a bunch of quiche Kishes with a bunch of cheese in them

So say what you will about the protracted shit joke They set it up They sure do It's not for no reason He's lactose intolerance Chekhov's lactose intolerance Yeah So while that's happening

The other sister Brittany Who again this is Kevin is chatting up a news anchor or reporter. I forget her job exactly, but her name is Denise Porter. Kevin thinks she is cute. Also, Terry Cruz is there. His character is a basketball star,

and he takes an interest in Tiffany and starts sexually harassing her. We'll talk more about that. but then the white chicks and their friends, Karen, Lisa and Tori, leave to go shopping for outfits for an event that night, which the thing that women be. Women be shopping, number one. They do be shopping. Number two, there's a moment in this scene that is also very similar to a moment in Titanic, which Titanic is referenced later in the movie. So we have a Shrek reference and a Titanic reference.

Wow. So in many ways we have to give this movie perfect marks. That's so true. And we could even end the episode now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's been really great to be here. Yeah, thank you so much. Thank you so much.

Yeah, thank you guys so much. No, but there's a scene where, okay, so there's some event later that night, some big, like, charity auction dinner. And the friends are like, Brittany, Tiffany, what are you wearing? And the sisters look down at their outfits and they're like, I don't know, this, similar to how Jack Dawson and Titanic says, I don't know, I guess I'll wear this to dinner. And then Kathy Bates says, you silly boy, you can't do that. Similar thing happens in this movie. And so the friends take the Wilson sisters shopping. Also, there's a on the way to

the mall or whatever, there's a scene where Brittany and Tiffany, they're singing along to a hip hop song and they say the N-word. And the other three white women are like, oh, yeah, we can do it too so then I will say okay I got a lot to say about this scene we'll talk more about it later but at first the white women are like no you can't say that right and the white chicks we'll refer to them white women and white chicks because it's the title but uh the white chicks are like well no one's around and then the white woman immediately concede their point and say the end word no less than five times busy phillips we have to talk because that was crazy but it was two It wasn't more. It was a different time. Yeah. It really does kind of just slide right out, doesn't it? No less than five times. It's like they said it all the time, which makes me be a little also specialist. You really have to question it. They go shopping. There's this whole trying to fit into clothes, hijinks, montage kind of thing. Yeah. One of the academic pieces I read for this does sort of break down by trope.

then like this subgenre that we were talking about at the beginning like there's always kind of like five or six kinds of scenes or scenarios that these characters end up in and this movie does all of it and I think because we just watched tutzi and mrs doubtfire it's like extra on my mind of like oh there it is there it is there it is yeah the dressing room is one of is one of the scenes that happens in in this movie yep I clocked that as well yeah then we cut to the chair charity auction event where they are auctioning off young women to whatever rich guys want to bid on them. And this includes one of the white chicks, Tiffany, and Terry Cruz, quote unquote, buys her. And so he will be taking her on a date later on. And again, use of pronouns in this discussion is going to be hard because these are cis men disguising themselves as, again, white chicks. So I guess when we're talking about them presenting as white chicks, I'll use the she-her pronouns, knowing full well that these are cis men in disguise. Yeah. It's complicated. A whole thing. Yeah. Anyway. That night, Brittany slash Kevin and Tiffany

slash Marcus go to their hotel room and they de-white chick themselves. But then the three white women knock on their door for a slumber party so they have to white chick themselves up again and they have a little chat and a little slumber party a little later two men come into the room one of the white chicks thinks that these are the men who are there to kidnap

the Wilson sisters so they get beat up but it turns out that they're strippers and we're laughing before we're supposed to be never seen that before This is, yeah, one of the classic tropes of movies like this where the men in disguise realized that women might not be hysterical. They might just seem hysterical.

But perhaps they contain more. But they're still hysterical. For sure. But maybe there's reasoning behind it. So the next day, all of the gals go to the beach. Kevin takes off his white chick get up to approach Denise, the reporter that he's had his eye on, and he asks her out for a date that night. He's pretending to be Terry Cruz's character.

What's his name, Latrell, I think, which is occurring to me now. She's like, she's a journalist and she didn't. All right. She doesn't know him. Seems like Terry Cruz's character is famous, right? Well, also, no one in this world recognizes that the Wayans brothers are men. That's true. That's true.

This is just a, this is kind of like a shaman, like the Hampton's face blindness. Anyone in the Hamptons are faceblind. Everyone in the Hamptons at this point got Lasic surgery and they were part of the two to five percent that it goes poorly for. Yeah. Okay. So Kevin, looking like himself, but pretending to be the pro ball play. who is like Terry Cruz's character's real identity, takes Denise out on a date.

He goes to Terry Cruz's character's house. It goes horribly wrong for a while. There's lots of hijinks. But then eventually... The Titanic reference. Yes. But it works out. That's where the Titanic reference is.

And then eventually they're viving. And she tells him some information about Ted Burton, the suspect in this kidnapping case that the brothers are working on. and what they thought was his motive for kidnapping people doesn't end up being true. Denise reveals this. So maybe he's not the kidnapper after all, but who is? And honestly, the answer, I couldn't care less. I'm like, bring back the white chicks.

I don't care. Well, we're about to see a white chick because while that date is happening, Terry Cruz, has taken Tiffany on a date. And, Marcus as Tiffany, is trying to be as unappealing as possible, like eating a bunch of messy, stinky food, having body hair, farting. But Terry Cruz loves all of it. Then everyone convenes at a dance club later that night. There's a scene where there's a dance off between the van derives,

Andergeld sisters and their friends. Oh, my God. The most 2004 deads off of all time. It's so bad. It's like really, really upsetting. It's wild. I had to, I watched it. I paused it.

I called Grant into the room. And I didn't remember. I also like, why is it a run DMC song? Like, it's just so. It's so bizarre. I kind of love it. Yeah. So what transpires here is Karen, Lisa, and Tori are

dancing against the Vandergaald sisters and the white women, the friends of the Wilson sisters, they lose and they're humiliated until Tiffany and Brittany join in and they start breakdancing. And a big trailer moment. I vividly remember. The break dancing in the trailer, ooh. Yes. And they hand the Vandergeld sisters asses to them. And this doesn't, this has no bearing on the plot.

but that's okay then we cut to karen drunken this is that's the busy phillips character drunkenly letting it slip that warren vandergeld and his family are not actually rich or at least aren't anymore in fact they're broke so marcus and kevin are like hmm that's interesting the next day marcus's wife jena who still thinks that marcus is cheating on her shows up at the hotel in the hamptons and and catches Marcus with another woman, aka Brittany, aka Kevin. So Gina storms out. This scene ends on a very homophobic slash transphobic button. Another hallmark of this genre, unfortunately.

For sure. And Gina also immediately suffering from Bad LASIC the moment she arrives. Yes, of course. Yes. Now, meanwhile, the real Tiffany. and Brittany Wilson see photos of themselves on page six, or rather photos of their impostors. So they decide to go to the Hamptons to confront them, I guess, or set their record straight.

I don't know. I did laugh at the part where they're like, we've been cloned! That was pretty funny. It's not really. So the real Wilson sisters head to the Hamptons, but they are apprehended by. a couple of FBI agents, colleagues of the Copeland brothers who we've seen previously, because they think that these sisters are frauds and the ones that Marcus and Kevin are pretending to be are the real Wilson sisters. There is a scene where the real sisters are stripped

down because, like, the FBI agents are trying to prove that they're not, quote, unquote, real women. Yeah. And that is a nightmare from like five different angles. Yeah, there's layers to how truly bad it is. Yeah, yes. But this makes the FBI agents and the chief realize that the other Wilson sisters who are already in the Hamptons are actually Marcus and Kevin posing as the sisters. So the chief fires the Copeland brothers, but they decide to continue working the case anyway, especially because the FBI is going after the wrong guy.

They still think Ted Burton is the kidnapper, but the real kidnappers are Warren Vandergeld, and then some other guy who... You're just like, huh? Like some frat bro who was established like an hour ago. You're like, well, right, whatever. Movies got to end sometime, you know? Yeah.

So Kevin and Marcus become one. white chicks again. They head to a fashion show to, I guess they're going to try to catch Warren Vandergeld. Again, I've kind of lost the plot at this point, but they end up on the catwalk as the Wilson sisters. And so do the real Wilson sisters. So hijinks ensue. All this wacky stuff happens. The Vandergeld sisters end up with red paint, spill. all over them because they were going to pull like a carry at prom stunt but it backfires and they get the paint poured on them who knows but as all of this is happening the bad guys kidnap the real brittany and tiffany wilson so marcus and kevin still in disguise go after them

there's a bunch of chaos and they eventually expose vandergeld as the kidnapper and then finally Marcus and Kevin take off their white chick disguises and a bunch of people are like, what in the hell? Such as Terry Cruz, Denise, Gina, the three white woman friends. Everyone is like, I had no idea that the people I've been looking at this whole time were not white women. And then Kevin and Marcus's boss rehires them so their jobs are saved. Kevin as his real self asks out Denise and she's like hubba hubba

Denise Denise we need to have a talk Oh my god She said none of this bothered me Oh let's go out For Denise Yes And then Marcus apologizes to his wife Gina Where's Denise's apology?

I know fans of Denise want to know Truly But Marcus does apologize at least to Gina for not paying enough attention to her or not appreciating her enough. And then the movie ends with the three white women approaching the brothers to be like, we, we liked the Wilson sisters so much more when they were you. So let's all go shopping sometime. And they're like, yes, we're definitely going to hang out. We come from the same world. We have a lot in common. So that's the movie. Let's take another quick break and we'll come back to discuss.

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This season of my podcast who's with me, I speak with two-time Emmy winner and weirdly one of my best friends, Kevin Avery. Everything up to that point, build you as a comic. Us going on the road, doing Battle Mountain and Ely. Yeah, you took me, you were one of the first people took me on the road, which is funny because at the time I was like,

I don't know if I like this guy. With rapper, actor, David Diggs. The jump off for me was Hamilton, and it was the most popular thing. in a very long time. But it was still, for me, it was me and my friends making something dumb.

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Listen to Who's With Me with Debbie Kumau Bell on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. And we're back. Taylor, is there anywhere you want to jump off? No pressure. Where do we even begin? Where do we even begin? I'm trying to be like, should I go like chronologically? Should I go like macro to micro? Because I got a couple of, which works better for y'all? Like a guest choice. Truly up to you. Yeah. Oh boy. Okay. Let me, I'll just like pick my few highlights that I got. We can maybe jump off from there.

Great. I think that kind of off the bat, like they're like, okay, two black men and. They work for the FBI. Yes. So we're flipping, you know what I mean? They're like, okay, so they're cops, but like advanced cops, advanced cops. And not only are they black men who are also cops, they're also incompetent. So add that to the list. They really suck and they're like about to lose their jobs.

Yeah. And they're kind of enemies in the system of the FBI are their boss who is also a black man, but who is confident, but he's older. And also they're two like, I don't know if they're partners, but I guess it's like two other partners who are a white man and a Latino man. Yes. I think one of my main theses is that it's like,

you can tell that like black people had a big hand in this movie being made and there are lots of like little, little Easter eggs throughout the whole movie that indicate that. And then there's one main one where one major detractor from that where it's like,

why did you let Busy Phillips say the N word five times? But I digress. I guess it's like when I, I mean, not when I first saw it because I was a child, but like when I just did this rewatch of it, I'm like, oh, there's like some, there are like racial aspects being involved in this movie and not in the obvious ways, like the ways that Terry Cruz is very clearly searching for a white woman and doesn't have any interest in dating anyone else besides a white woman. I want to talk more about him, but we'll get there.

Yeah. We can do it right now. We can do it right now. Well, that was one of the things that sort of struck me. And this is not the first time we have seen this, which is humor that is punching down. toward a racially marginalized person by another racially marginalized person, whether it's another character in the movie or the screenwriter writing the jokes or whatever. Because I remember a conversation we had on the 40-year-old Virgin episode. It really is all these 2000s movies, yeah.

Yeah. Where in that movie, one of the running bits is two non-white characters are being, super racist toward each other and making racist jokes toward each other. And that is always presented as like, ha ha ha, isn't it so funny that these non-white characters are being racist? See, not just white people are racist. It's also people of color can be racist to each other too. Which kind of is, I mean, it's in the first scene in this movie.

You mentioned it where it's just like, yeah. Okay, two things. Macro, they must have had a wild makeup budget, a wild makeup costuming budget because they are also in white chick's style. like wigs make up masks to play two older Latino men running a bodega when they in the very first scene. Yeah, I feel like they're playing into like a bunch of different. It's kind of like a churitory of cultural tropes that they're playing into in that opening. Like I don't even know what they're going.

Because I and it's so weird. This is such a hard conversation to have because like when like a character is doing a racist caricature of someone else, me as the audience receiving this is like because I thought they were doing caricatures of Indian men based on the way they were styled but one of them is speaking Spanish so I was like what is happening here not to say that Indian people can't speak Spanish obviously sure but no but he's speaking with like a pretty offensive like I speak English as a second language and Spanish is a first accent and also another thing to note is that they did not even give that man lines to speak in actual Spanish. Not that they couldn't find somebody, but he literally sings

La Bamba as one of the lines. He sings Guantanamera as like one of the lines. It's like he's speaking Spanish, but he's speaking it in like lines from famous songs that are in Spanish that people knows. Or I'm like, couldn't they have just written him some, some lines? I don't know. I don't know anything, but. All very offensive. For sure. So, oh my God, there's so much to unpack. So to go back to the 40-year-old virgin thing, that was a thing where, and the difference here is that that movie was written and directed by white people. So the discussion we had there was white people presenting people of color being racist toward each other as if to say, you know, it's very like everybody does it. Everybody can be racist. It's like it was a very prominent sort of like thing you would hear a lot during that time period.

Yeah, it was like the South Park, the South Park motto. Like we're not racist. We hate everybody. We hate everybody equally. Yeah. But this movie is written and directed by black men. So, and we have all of these examples of characters of color being racist to each other or doing these racist characters, including the way that the Terry Cruz character is presented in the sense that all of these harmful stereotypes about black people and about black men specifically are being deployed here. in the sense that like black men are sexually aggressive.

They have huge penises. They love white women. We see him try to drug a woman's drink. Like all of these disgusting things presented as a joke without commentary. And it's, it's, I had to do a hard time with this character because it, I, I'm curious what you both think. Like, I felt like what they were kind of signaling with this character is like, this is the like quote unquote wrong kind of black man. Right.

Like and that the FBI agents, the brothers are the right kind of black man. But the way that they do that is by strictly presenting Terry Cruz in this very like tropey with a lot of specificity too. Like the way that, um, I forget which, uh,

white chick that maybe Tiffany. I don't remember one of them. Um, but she is like making, like King Kong references. Like it's, it's, there's a lot of specificity in the way that those tropes like the tropes like are very, very, very intentional. And like you're saying, Caitlin, like not commented on.

And they also give Terry Cruz at the end. And I want to talk about like further into the episode how this movie sort of is in conversation with a bunch of movies with similar premises. But they sort of give Terry Cruz the nobody's perfect line. Yeah, I was going to say from. Yeah. From some like it hot. Yeah.

But it's flipped so that he is not upset that he was a man, but that he was black, right? Like so it's just like there's, I honestly don't even know how to talk about their character. There's so much going on. And let's not forget the extremely charming line that is not only super racially offensive, it's also super ableist. Once you go black, you are going to need a wheelchair. Yes. Yes. Yeah.

And they say it more than once. Yeah, for sure. Followed by a woman in a wheelchair. who presumably recently had sex with that Terry Cruz character and then is like shoved out of the frame in a like violent. Yeah, she enters the frame. She says, hi, Latrell. And then somebody shoves her off.

They were like, how can we make this so bad? And that is, if I'm remembering correctly, the only disabled character we see the entire movie. Yes. Which again is like not shocking to me for a broad comedy coming out this particular year. but it's like all of the things that you would find in a very broad 2004 movie are present here. Yeah, the Terry Cruz character, like, I think that a lot of people, like, only kind of remember the Vanessa Carlton bit. Which is, which is a fun scene.

It's maybe, like, the most harmless scene in the entire movie is just him singing that song. I think also maybe one of the most iconic, like that. Sure. Yes, for sure. Yeah. And that's because of Terry Cruz, like, Terry Cruz is selling it. Sure. in that scene.

Yeah, I think that I had a bunch of cases in this movie of some jokes that worked for me because they were doing something that like really no other movie like this does, which is like commenting very explicitly on race and class, which most movies that I mean, if we're talking about, it's mostly white guys who are in, I guess,

drag, but it's also that depends on how you define drag. but they're in drag for most of the movie kind of only for pretty selfish reasons and the point like I think especially Tootsie a movie I just like cannot stand is like the worst version of it

where it happens in a world where white men in their 40s can't get acting jobs and you know who can white women in their 50s you know just like this world that doesn't exist and like I do appreciate I think in the context of other movies like this it's certainly not as good as some like it hot which i think is still kind of like the uncontested

best version of this premise but i think it's at least trying to like some of the jokes hit because they're doing more than this premise would normally do and i think it also makes all the same mistakes in terms of homophobia in terms of transphobia and terms of misogyny that all of those movies also do so it's like it's it's tricky i'm like i'm not trying to to to hand it to white chicks necessarily, but I do think that, like, it is very unique because most of, most of these other movies we're talking about, like Mrs. Doubtfire, like some Like It Hot, like Tutsi, are not really attempting to comment on certainly not race and usually not class either. Yeah. There's a, there's a scene where they're first showing up at the hotel and they're

realizing, like, you mentioned Caitlin, that not only are they like, oh, shit, we're men and we're dressed as women, so we have to, like, act accordingly. Like, if a man is hitting on us, we can't use our man voices. We have to like sound like women. And also the next, like the very next thing that happens is that the other FBI agents, their like enemies, come up to them and ask, you know, like, oh, hi, welcome to the hotel. Like, we're here to help you. And they immediately realized that they can like mistreat those other FBI agents. So I don't know if it's Tiffany or Brittany, but hands her chihuahua in a little bag to the smaller of the FBI agents and is like, yeah, can you you clean up her bag, like, she just pooped everywhere.

Thank you, Rico Suave or something like that, which is like, okay, so now this is a black man dressed as a white woman, realizing they can use their white womanness to, like, be a little racist and classist toward these FBI agents who they see as below them. But they're also black men dressed as white woman doing that. You know, it's like, it's a little kind of, it's like subversive in a way that I don't think they meant it to be. Yeah, because they're, when they're dressed as the white women, the white chicks, they're modeling their behavior from the two actual real rich white woman who when Marcus and Kevin approached

them to pick them up for the first time, the sisters are like, ooh, get away from us. We already donated to the United Negro College Fund. I actually think is the specific reference they make, which is like that's another little sprinkle that this was made by black people because there's absolutely no way that any random white woman on the street would like know. Yeah, would have known what the organization is. Right. And certainly not have donated to it. Sure. So I don't even mind, I guess, when them posing as the rich white women, I mean, I mind it in the grand scheme of things, but in the context of this, when they are being horrible and racist, it's like commentary. It's commentary. Yeah, it's commentary on the way rich white women often behave. It is so joke to joke

in this movie, though, because it's like other times, like in the opening sequence, they're just being racist. Yeah, for sure. Just being racist. Yeah, but like there are certain scenes where it's like they're in the space of the same scene, which is why you're like, oh, rich text, rich text. What do you do with it? In the space of the same scene, they're both kind of like horrified by being treated like women. Right. Like objectified by men. But they're also kind of experiencing this fantasy scenario of experiencing white privilege. And so it's like they're always like five different things going on. Some of it is like interesting. some of it sucks and it's all a lot of it sucks it's a lot of it sucks but it's like it's there's

really not another movie like it I think that's what I just got that big they'd be like there's just so there is only one white chick there truly is not yeah well that was my big thesis is that there are so many opportunities to comment on men experiencing misogyny for the first time because they're being perceived as women and them experiencing the privilege of being white for the first time. And the movie does like a little bit of each thing and then kind of drops it. Pretty much drops it. Yeah.

And kind of squanders the opportunities. And then the other thing is like I feel like another big thing I look out for with movies that have this premise are how are the women that surround these characters, like the characters in drag. How are they characterized? are we getting a are we getting an inner life or are we not and in this I think they probably thought they were giving characters in inner life but they sure did definitely weren't they really thought they were doing something with that sleepover scene I think they really did wait okay can we talk about

the sleepover scene really quickly let's do it so that was a scene that I was talking about at the top of this I was gonna ask where yeah my eyes were covered but only for one part the stripper scene wasn't really a problem I guess because they were just like getting beat up but there was a scene that I think was cut from some DVD versions of this movie or maybe some like, I'm definitely the TV version, but they all get dildos and they like, I did not see that. You didn't see it. Okay. They all get dildos out and do kind of like a, oh, like show us how you do you're like, you know, how you like deep throat. And they ask one of the men who was dressed as the white chicks. And he obviously doesn't know what to do with it. So it's actually, it's like a

funny scene now that I've watched it because he like wiggles it in his face and is like, you know, it's like it's very childish and like, you know, teenage boy. Sure. But I was wondering if you guys saw that scene because they did know that. They did cut it from a lot. And especially it certainly was not in the TNT made for TV version. I was going to say if you get a chance, go see if you can find it. But it's not, don't do that. Don't do that. I'm running. Wait. I need to go. We have to do it for our job. But no, whatever version is on Netflix. Yeah. That's.

scene is not in the Netflix. Did not make the cut version. Yeah, on the original one. In the original one, it's on there. And, you know, I mean, more power to my cousins for knowing that I probably shouldn't have been exposed to that at that time. Yeah. But to your point, Jamie, the, that slumber party scene, there's a moment where the busy Phillips character is her name Karen? I got them all confused. But I honestly was just like, busy Phillips.

Busy Phillips. She's lamenting about how a man that she likes isn't giving her the respect she feels she deserves and how she wishes how men could trade places with women just to see what women have to put up with. And Kevin and Marcus, as Brittany and Tiffany, are like, huh, that's interesting. And then there are a couple other moments that you were alluding to, Jamie, that are staples of this premise of like men going in disguise as women. They always realize how uncomfortable women's clothing is. There's often not a lot of commentary beyond that as far as like, well, why it is often designed to be uncomfortable because it's appealing to the male gaze with high heels and

constrictive form fitting super tight clothing and all that kind of stuff. So it's more just noticing a thing and then presenting it rather than examining it more closely, which is almost always what happens when men try to make movies about women. Well, and in this one, they, they had an, like, so, it was a, it was a miss. It was a close miss. I don't know why I'm rooting for the white chick like this. But it was a close miss. I was like, oh, guys, so close.

Where there's, they're in the, again, I don't know which white chick, but they're in the dressing room. And one of the white chicks. And every woman in this movie is historic. essentially. With the exception of the journalist, the thing with her is the fact that she's a journalist doesn't matter. Anyways, every woman is hysterical. And there's one of the white women, there's a long kind of leering shot of her body. And then the joke is that she hates her body. She thinks that she quote unquote looks fat. She like is disgusted with herself. She's pointing out everything she thinks is wrong with her. And then that's just sort of the whole joke. And again, you're like, well, there's, there's,

there's an opportunity that kind of fails to go anywhere. It's like they're they're presenting like I don't know they're showing things that are I don't want to say real but like you know women are conditioned to hate their own bodies and like this is 2004 women were socially conditioned to be very very thin at that time. They also should like you said Jimmy they like show this long shot of her body and she has like a quote unquote normal body by 2004 standards even like she's like objectively thin. Yeah. And I think they actually do that shot of her to like iterate that she is thin, but that she's so hysterical as like a woman that she thinks she's so fat and like makes all these on comments about her body, which is like, like you said, very near miss.

You know, like you're right there. If we had just wondered why a woman would think that about herself. Right. Because there are a lot of people who are thin who have body disarmes. morphia and that often leads to an eating disorder and unfortunately like I think that's like a relevant thing to be talking about in the year 2026 for sure we've circled back around ed culture is back it is 2004 again in so many ways yes for sure and then there's another particularly hysterical character in jina marcus's wife oh boy we already talked about a little bit but she is obsessed with the idea that her husband is cheating on her and she is presented in the most unreasonable way imaginable,

where there is no way he could be cheating on her with the timeline. It's like dated even for 2004. We don't even, like there's not even a suggestion that she has any, any, any reason to suspect. Like, oh, yeah. Also, yeah, anything else going on in her day. Right. She's just calling him all day and calling the station. Calling his boss.

Yeah, it's also when she does eventually pull up to like the party, that they're, the hotel that they're at. Yeah. She's wearing like a bonnet. She has like, like sloppy pajamas on. She's wearing like slippers, I think, which is like, I mean, something to be said about like them trying to show a class difference, of course, between like all these fancy people at this hotel party.

But also something to be said about like you had this black woman come out of her house in a way that I don't think many black women would come out of their house unless it was in an emergency as if it was just like no big deal to her. And she knew she was going to be around all these very rich, fancy white people and that still didn't face her at all. It's just like not really based in reality. Yeah. Yeah, that's like off topic.

But it was something I was thinking about from like a racial person. Yeah, no, it does feel like they really go out of their way to kind of other her in every circumstance. Meanwhile, they're passing as white chicks, no problem. You know, like it's the Gina character is so, so frustrating. I was honestly shocked that she came back. Yeah. After her opening sequence. So I guess if nothing else.

she returns but again just like the way that they handle women in this movie is it's always like and I think they handle Gina in a similar way where they're like well women are hysterical but that's okay like that's we still love them yes like they're presenting because with Gina the I think that like the breakthrough the breakthrough for Marcus in that scene when he's listening to busy Phillips say like I'm calling this guy all day and like I just want him to like me blah blah blah like his realization there is oh my gosh my wife hysterically calls me all day maybe it's just because she likes me and it's like well but women don't do that it's also like yeah your wife likes you can you imagine the woman you married likes you and wants to speak to you it's so I mean yeah that opening sequence

there's literally an opening sequence where the joke is he keeps falling asleep whenever she speaks and all she does is nag him and yell at him and then obsess over him and so it's like they're presenting this very kind of like misogynist woman character and then they decide to accept her and you're like okay but who is that like who is that right there is one brief moment where in that scene where he keeps falling asleep toward the beginning she says we don't communicate well like you're not a good communicator and I that's very likely true for sure. We have no reason to think he's a good communicator based on the movie. Right.

And that would be an interesting arc for him if he was a bad communicator and we saw evidence of that and she was unhappy with him because of that. And then by the end of the movie he learned through presenting as a woman for the weekend. He learned how to be a more effective communicator. that would be an interesting arc for a character, but that is not what happens. It is not what happened. And even if it did happen, it's like, okay, you lived as, let's suspend our disbelief. You lived as a passable cis white woman for two nights total.

And now you understand what it's like to be a woman because we're so simple and we have so little interiority or anything to figure out about us that it's just like, God, if you could just be a woman for two nights, you could figure us all out and be the perfect husband. because all we want is just you to listen to us, bitch. You know what I mean? We just want to complain a little bit. We want to go shopping. They accept like the stereotypes of women at the end. And you're like, who does this help? This, like, one of the other many, I'm like, this is also just the roast of Tutsi part two.

But like how in Tutsi, Dustin Hoffman's character, similarly, like, I mean, in most of these movies lives as a woman for two days. And then in his case, he immediately becomes the quote unquote the best at being a woman. He becomes the most famous woman on television. And he's like, yep, got it. And again, and how, and we've talked about this in all of these other episodes. So obviously we need to touch on it here. But there's also, we've had versions of this discussion in the past of how muddled this gets for the fact that these stories, in stories like this and this premise gets. gets prioritized ahead of any other representation of drag

and how often conflated it gets with, especially the further you go back in time, people's conception of trans people and how much intentionally or not this premise can feed into homophobia and transphobia and just a general prejudice against drag culture. Right. Of all of the offenses toward marginal,

identities they do in this movie. Besides the extremely on its nose, like, these cis men are playing cis woman and they are doing it very easily by just, like, putting a mask on and, like, some hair on and, like, what that says about what these filmmakers thought about trans people. Like, they're not, I can't think of one off my head of, like, a direct joke that they made at the expense of trans people or gay people. Not specifically of trans people, but there's so much just. inherent transphobia?

Oh, it's baked into the whole movie. Like, it's kind of in the concept of the whole movie. But it's just, like, interesting that they were like, okay, we covered this with like, kind of the whole plot point of us addressing these men as women. So we don't have to say it directly. You know. Yeah. It's, I don't know.

Because, I mean, right, there's not a very specific overt joke at the expense of trans people. Because they are very specific about other ones. Right. Right. Exactly. Right. But this movie also has such a narrow conception of gender in general. Of course.

That like the whole movie is based on the conception of like men be like, women be like. I do agree with you Taylor that I don't think it is like the worst offender in this genre. Not to say that's not an offender, to be clear. But it is definitely a offender. Yeah. Yeah. There was, I mean, I think that the biggest sort of gay panic moment that I noticed was the Terry Cruz character waking up next to. Oh, yeah.

man and one of the other rich white boy. Yes, which I'm like, that is also a very bizarre. Just one of the many never seen this setup before, don't like it, but I'm saying I've never seen it before. Is that that set up, those two men being together, I think it's implied that they roofied each other because they wanted to both roofing women. And then they ended up roofing each other. And you're like, well, I haven't seen that before. Again, I don't like it, but I have not, yeah, this, I've, we've seen the two men waking up next to each other and reacting with horror and discussed a bazillion times across movies. With this context, what happens there is that, yeah, please tell me.

Because the guy, the white guy, the younger white guy, deliberately drugs himself. And we don't know what drug this is. But it's something that, I'm fine with them not getting specific. That's fine. Fine. They seem sort of lucid, sort of not. And he's like talking to a dog at the nightclub at one point being like, I love you too, little puppy. Meanwhile, Terry Cruz's character slips the same drug in Tiffany's drink, although he is letting her know that.

He's like, here, just take it. It'll be great. And then she's like, ha, ha, okay. And then when he's not looking, she swaps the drinks. So he basically accidentally drugs himself. So both of these men have essentially drugged themselves. And then they're all loosey, goosey on the dance floor. And then they apparently go home that night, wake up in the same bed together.

And then they have a moment of gay panic. It is a very elaborate setup to get there. Truly. And like, did we need to get there? Did it move the plot forward in any capacity? I would say no. It did not. And then, I mean, just even broader, there is homophobia.

and transphobia just steeped in the idea of a man hitting on someone who he thinks is a cis woman, but is actually a cis head man in disguise. And this is kind of twofold because we're supposed to think it's funny that the man who's doing the hitting on doesn't know that he's actually flirting with another man. And then there's also supposed to be humor in the man who's in disguise as a woman having to deal with the discomfort of being flirted with by another man because that's gross and yucky too. And we've talked about that before on different episodes of movies where this is the premise of the movie.

And again, I haven't seen some like it hot in a couple of years, but I still feel like it really takes the cake in so many ways, even though it's like by far the oldest movie where the two main characters in that movie kind of love, like they seems like they really come to enjoy being in drag and then at the end like the nobody's perfect moment it's it's it's amazing um where i feel like especially in the like 90s and 2000s there is always an emphasis on and they're only doing this because for plot reasons there is no other option i think that that's kind of why i like even though it's i think probably definition wise they are in drag but it it's not quite that because if you're doing drag there is intent you want to do it it is like it's a performance it's a it's a entertainment versus they're doing

I think the better term or the better word to use is disguise it's disguise right but I think it's like there are so many especially in 2004 there is so much conflation of what is happening in these premises in a way that like you know and and again this is like not specific to white chicks but in a way that has like a very lasting kind of cultural impact. Can I say one more thing about the homophobia in this, which is that it's so interesting that even with the choice they made of Terry Cruz's character waking up in bed next to that other guy and having that moment of gay panic, they still choose what, I mean, going back, like, to make his disgust with discovering that this white, quote unquote white woman he's been pursuing

this whole movie is actually a black man. The disgust is not that he's a man. The disgust is that he's black. She's not white. You know? And then also one more thing is that when Kevin, I think it is, is taking the reporter back to Terry Cruz's character's house and like showing her all around. There's that big giant naked photograph of Terry Cruz's character on the wall. And she's like, oh, is this? Why do you have? Who is this? And he's like, yeah, I guess I appreciate the male form. So he says something like that. But it's just like the implication that that giant naked picture of a man is in. Terry Cruz's character's home is like so what what angle are they going for with this character like I think well the Wayne's brothers did I think that they are trying to do the Sun like it hot thing and not quite getting it where because they do say in press junkets throughout like when they're promoting

this movie that this is like the movie that that was their inspiration for doing this they wanted to do their version of some like it hot and I think that they're trying to do something with the Terry Kruz character that doesn't really land based on that. But yeah, it's like it's, it is very set up. So then the the gay panic moment is kind of bizarre to choose for that character specifically. Agreed. That's, I think, what I'm getting at. And even like the scene right before where he's dancing, not that like dancing as a man with your shirt, with your shirt off and, you know, with a whistle in your mouth. And like, he's actually a really good, really good dancer in that scene. Yes. Is like inherently a gay thing, like anybody of any sexuality or, you know,

whatever can like dance, but I don't think they're trying to make him look particularly, uh, straight with that like the, the way that he's, I know, I know what you mean. He, he looks like he's plucked out of a gay nightclub. And he's doing a great job, you know? Yeah. He'd be the hit. It's true. Totally. Yeah. So there's, it's, that's the, yeah, I mean, a lot of the jokes are inconsistent. It's, yeah, I mean, I think that there's, there's, we, we've touched on, I think, most of them at this point, but it's like, it's kind of a toss-up with this movie of like, if we're making jokes about white chicks, sometimes they're like very funny and work because

they're talking about class and they're talking about like white privilege and all this stuff. And other times they're kind of just being misogynist. And like sometimes with care, like it's like sometimes the jokes are doing what I think they want them to do and other times it feel like they're punching down kind of. For sure. And it's, it really is just kind of a toss up from from joke to joke it's it's I kind of ended up stop like I probably could have written down a lot more but at some point I'm like nope that's just what this movie is yeah yeah the other runner that I did write down was so there's those two there's that pair of other FBI agents I forget their names but they're like sort of the the partners who are like frenemies of

Marcus and Kevin and they're doing this extended joke where one One of them asks the other one, who would you rather sleep with? And the joke is like, is typically this either like not conventionally attractive person or situation. And you have to choose like which quote unquote gross person. Like gun to your head. Who would you sleep with? And the options are, yeah. Such as like Janet Reno or Rosie O'Donnell or Pam Anderson and Carmen Electra.

But the catches, they both have a yeast infection. Or Rupal or Whoopal or Whoopi Goldberg was one of them. Fuck-ass characters are so irritating. It's also just like a use of, who cares? Who cares? Grow up. Grow up. It's a little yeast infection.

Oh, yeah. And then there's another gay panic moment with those guys where one of them, I think, it's the white guy sniffes panties. Oh, yes. Right, right, right. And then later finds out it was his male co-co. workers panties and he's like oh it's just you know it it's it's 2004 and and we're and here we are yeah so I guess ultimately there are a handful of moments or beats or whatever that start to

provide some sort of commentary on the behavior of wealthy white women and and look white women deserve a lot of scrutiny. But again, it just never gets very far. And there's not really a lot of criticism of white men. I also kind of noticed. Like they are, I guess, ultimately the big bads in this like kidnapping plot that is kind of in or like, who cares? Like no one is coming to this movie for the kidnapping plot.

But do you know what's funny is that the point where they do get kind of taken down is when there's actually a pretty funny line where at the end it's revealed that the Vandergeld Patriarch is one of the kidnappers. And his kind of takedown is that now he's poor. That's like the worst thing he could possibly be. And it's like, let's debase this white man in the best way we can debase a white man, which is like, ignore the kidnapping, ignore like the racism, ignore all of that. It's that he's lost all his money and he's poor.

Yeah. You know, it's like this is like the ultimate way to take down a white guy is to make fun of how much money he has where it's like they're kind of the ones who are doing bad the whole movie. Right. trying to, I don't know. It's, yeah, you know. It's like not like I wanted more of those characters. No, but.

But yeah, I guess I didn't even think about that until after. There was a piece that I read on Engaged Scholarship.com called Neglecting the subjects of the drag performance in white chicks because there is a dissertation on every movie. Of course. Of course. This is from 2015. And there's a lot of interesting stuff, a lot of which we've kind of touch. on already. But yeah, at the end sort of points out that white women are extensively thought about in this movie. They're heavily criticized in like ways that I think are like very

effective. They're there along with the black women in the story lightly characterized but not really at all. But that it's just interesting that like white men are not particularly present in this story. Well, because they're the default, which is like, you know, race 101. It's like white men are the default. And they're also the people who are making decisions. Well, I was going to say who were making the decisions in Hollywood in 2004, but they're still making the decision in Hollywood.

Let's be honest. Now more than ever. Truly. To go back to Denise briefly, the journalist who's the love interest of Kevin, you mentioned this a bit ago, Jamie, but she. is the one exception to the rule in this movie as far as women are hysterical or women are bimbo. She's also the only woman with a job as far as they're.

Yes. She is presented as she's more level-headed. She's more intellectual. But also, like, she, so this is a romance based on deception where Kevin is lying to her, pretending to be Latrell and bringing her to a house that isn't him and lying about all of this stuff. And despite her being a journalist and expressing specifically an interest in investigative journalism, she does not pick up on the obvious clues that he is lying about everything. Look, it seems like she's a culture writer, okay?

But she says she says she used to be an investigative journalist and then got fired because I will say that She does provide information that does help push the story forward in the sense that she's like, the guy who you thought was poor is actually rich. Then the brothers figure out, oh, it can't be that Ted Burton guy. He doesn't have a motive. But she's never, I mean, but to your point, Caitlin, like she's never given. And we've come across this, like this issue so many times in like a woman being deceived plots. Whereas like if at some point in the movie, she figures it out, all of a sudden, she's a character. character and like she wants to be an investigative journalist why would she not be interested in

this story but like her being a journalist is so incidental it feels like they're kind of just paying lip service to like well we wrote a woman we did it she has a job and everything and she has a job okay so get off her back exactly like is she like subjectively the most beautiful woman on planet earth like yeah but that's like that doesn't matter but her real but i i did really love the delivery of and that's how I realized my passion was investigative journalism and I'm like three to one for this to never become relevant and it and it does and it doesn't and it's it sucks because it's like you can so easily just like you know bullshit off the top of your head a way for that to become both very relevant and for her to like actually have a character and they just don't specifically within the

plot of this movie like that's kind of oh my god it's so they easily could have caught like 40 minutes off the movie if they had just cut Gina's whole role that did didn't need to be there because it does nothing to move the plot forward at all and like gave all of that kind of investigation like, hmm, this seems a little fishy, like, hmm, I got to get to the bottom of this to the literal investigative journalist in the film. That also reminds me of there's like a one off. Again, it's like there, there's a few self-aware jokes that they'll do before kind of like reinforcing an existing trope anyways. And there's a moment at the very end where Gina is about to forgive Marcus. And she's like,

brought her friend with her and her friend is like, I know you're not about to forgive your husband. I know you're not about to forgive your husband when he says, sorry one time. And she says, oh, go away. And then she forgives her husband and everything is fine because he goes, peepie, pooh, I'm so sorry, you're so pretty. Like, you know, and so they, it's, I just thought it was interesting that they went out of their way to kind of invent a character to call out their own poor writing. But they, but they did again. You're like, you know. And also it's, It's almost like they wanted us, the white chicks, let's say. Not me necessarily, but to learn, to learn, for women to ultimately be the people who take a lesson from this movie.

And that is that kind of don't ask too many questions. Right. And also, if your friend is going to take back her, like, conniving, lying, like a husband who finds her objectively boring and, like, doesn't really want to spend time with her and ignores her phone calls, like, you're being a bad friend by bringing her attention to that. just let her do her thing. Yeah. It's true. She's probably just jealous. Yeah.

There's that moment toward the end where the man that busy Phillips' character likes, she confronts him and she's like, you, because, because again, the men who are pretending to be women teach a woman a lesson on how to respect yourself as a woman. And she goes, you know what? you don't deserve me. I'm more than just a booty call. You don't respect me. And he's like, what?

Oh, my God. I can't believe you're calling me out for this. And we're supposed to be like, woohoo. She did it. Girl power. Girl power. She learned how to be a woman because a man taught her. Always.

Always in these stories. I like, no. No, I'm not going to bring up Tutsia 40th time. I think you can bring up Tutsia 40th time. I'll do it. I think that my favorite, like, woman, paradoxically, I do think my favorite character in Tutsi is the woman who he deceitfully falls in love with, the Jessica Lang character, because there is that, like, really frustrating, confounding thing at the end of that movie where she sees him, you know, like after he's been revealed to not be Dorothy or whatever. and she's just like, I miss you when you were Dorothy. And like doesn't really, it's suggested that she's going to end up with them anyways.

But I was like, that was, I don't know. I always find that, like, that line so interesting of like she really needed a woman friend. And now she is expected to have a fuck-ass boyfriend. And like, how disappointing would that be? And like, but this movie, I think, like, white chicks is very much, with the exception of the not. of the Terry Cruz joke, it does do, I think, what this kind of movie more often does, which is just, quote, unquote, like, restores straight cis order to the world. And there is, like, the sort of last five minutes of the movie are going from character to

character and affirming that, quote unquote, order has been restored. Yeah. Even though we, like, deceived you and lied to you and, like, were in spaces that you would not have let us in, had you known that we were pretending to be your friends and not actually your friends. You forgave us. And like, we're going to go shopping later. Because women be shopping.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Wow. Does anyone have anything else? They want to take. What a journey. Girls, what a journey. Oh, boy.

Yeah, I think that that's, I mean, yeah, I can keep going. But that's basically everything I had. I could talk about this movie truly all day. And it really, there's so much going on. Nothing else like it. Mm-hmm. Well, does it pass the Bechtel test? And mind you, we are not considering Kevin and Marcus when they are in disguise as the Wilson sisters.

They are not supposed to women. I think that there might be some like barely passes. There's like between the white chicks or no, sorry, the white women. The white women, the other friends. I think that there are a few soft passes between the friends. It is usually, but I think that like any pass that does exist is performing gendered stereotypes. And so I'm sort of like not wanting to give it to them for this one. Maybe technically, but not for me.

I was going to say even if it technically did, I think the, let's say the vibe of a movie as a whole fails it. Yeah. Yeah. We always say spiritually, it does not pass. Yeah. Even if it maybe technically does. In the movie, White Chicks, I do think they fail to write coherently a single woman. And therefore, it does not pass.

They failed to write coherently a single movie. And you'll never guess that there are six screenplay by credited writers on this movie. That did crack me up. See that at the end? You're like, how many men did we need to get in? It took six men. So it's not a single one is a woman. Not a single, no.

It is three of the Wayans brothers, Keenan Ivory, Sean and Marlin. and then three other people who I didn't even bother to look up, so I don't know anything about them. I'll do a quick check. Please. Michael Anthony Snowden. Andy McElfish. McElfish. Maclefish.

Maclefish, I like better. Okay. Miguel Fresh is probably how you say it, but I like McElfresh. I like it too. McElfresh. Yeah, it's all middle-aged men, you know, wrote this movie. Not a single one. was like, hmm, we're going to make a movie that primarily centers around these two men who

are dressed as women and their interactions with these other three women. And we're going to call it white chicks. We probably don't need any woman to take a look at this script. Like, we're probably, we can figure this. We know women. They're easy. We got this. Women are hysterical. That's what we know and that's what we'll write. But we controversially are going to say that's actually awesome. And we get it. Can I ask you guys one question before we wrap it up. Yes. Do you think that there is a way

that this movie could be made today here, let me, the sentence is not over, could be made today with all of the 2026 kind of progress we've made with respect to showing marginalized identities

in movies. Do you think we could, do you think they could remake white chicks in a way that we could release it today and people would be like this is fine? It doesn't have to be good. Right. Yeah. Oh, I think it would have to depend on so many things.

I mean, it's like, yeah, so many of the specifics would have to change. That it wouldn't be the same movie. Yeah, exactly. Like, I don't know. So much would have to go. I don't know. I mean, I do, whether we like it or not, this premise will continue to happen in movies. Of course.

It is just, like, a premise that has existed for so long. I mean, that's like a bunch of Shakespeare. plays are also have more look shakespeare has more in common with white chicks than you may think that's well i was going to say so she's the man is based on 12th night is that right so yeah and that's a movie about someone of one gender pretending to be another gender in order to prove something and in order to be able to play soccer and it's a and not it's it's it's a movie that's not without its faults. I'm not saying that. But it's a movie that I really enjoy. Mulan is a movie about disguising as a different gender in order to X, Y, Z. There is something in common with those

movies. Is it that they're women pretending to be men? Correct. Correct. Yeah. I'm not saying that it's impossible for a movie about the sort of reverse of that, a cis man pretending to be a cis woman that can't work, I just haven't really seen evidence of it working. I'm going to say maybe, maybe. Probably not. I would, yeah, I would rather, there's so many movies I would rather see than this premise again. Very true. Yeah.

I think I yearn for just like a comedy you can watch with your friends, like, drunk on a couch that's not like, doesn't necessarily have to be a thinker. but I think that there's probably a happy medium between the 2004 iteration of that and like what the 2026 iteration of that would be that doesn't have to be disgusting in so many capacities. Absolutely. Yeah. I believe. I believe. We should do it.

We should just make a second. Let's do it. I want to make a stoner film that only has women in it. Taylor, you'd be so good at it. I don't think we have one yet. We got to make one. Not really. What was that?

There was a recent Kristen Stewart and Alia. Yeah. I have not seen it. I haven't seen it either. I saw it and I didn't like it very much. No. All right, Taylor, you got to do it.

Okay. Well, if I need a couple of people to look at the scripts, I'm going to hit up five men. So I'm so sorry that you guys won't be on the list. No, that would be understand. I'm really sorry about that. Five men in their 40s are going to be stop number one. I don't even know five men in their 40s.

And that's a blessing. for you. Okay, so spiritually does not pass the Bechtel test. What about our nipple scale where we rate the movie on a scale of zero to five nipples based on examining it through an intersectional feminist lens? Boy, I don't know. I'm going to go, I'm going to go a half nipple on this one. I was considering zero, but I'm going to go a half nipple because they do start to provide some commentary on white privilege. and the weaponizing of white woman tears and that kind of thing. Again, the movie kind of drops it.

It doesn't explore that to its like full potential, but it does a little bit of that and those were some of my favorite parts of the movie. Otherwise, it is so steeped in homophobia, transphobia, misogyny, racism, It's copaganda. It is copaganda. It's got all these problems. Wow, that's one you don't even usually see. Yeah.

You know, that's like a good, wow. So, yeah, a half nipple, and I'll give it to Gina, Marcus's wife, because she deserved better than... She deserved a hobby. Anything. Anything. Anything at all. A second outfit. but, you know, so many things.

A friend who spoke more than once in the whole film. Maybe next time. Yeah, I guess I'll meet you at a half. I think that this movie, like we've been talking about for two hours, plays into basically every fault of broad comedies of this time. And some that are more particular to Wayne's Brothers movie specifically. But I think it's the 90s, 2000s, broad offensive, humor that is punching at just about anyone who is not, who are not men is very present here.

I also think that this movie has an interesting, it's like I feel like I've been kind of talking around this whole time, but like this movie has an interesting place in the history of this premise because I think it is uniquely attempting to talk about race and class in a way that is kind of unusual for this premise, a premise I generally find is like poorly handled, including here but in a way I've never seen before. And in a way that's maybe on accident. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, it's so hard to, especially when you're watching a movie that's like they came out 20 years ago, you're like, the things that they get right may be kind of just like. Just coincidental. They're just throwing darts. So I'll go, I'll go half nipple. And I guess I will give mine to the world's worst reporter. Denise Denise Taylor what about you it deserves zero nipples I'll be honest but this is extremely shallow so hear me out

but I also do agree with everything everybody else has said obviously there's the dynamic between the Vandergaald sisters and the Wilson sisters in that front group and they're like enemies but I do think the way that they portray the friendship between the main cast and like the main white woman and the white chicks is like kind of nice and not catty in a way that lots of female friendships are like usually portrayed where it's like they are supportive of each other you know what and it's like they're always like you look beautiful like we'll find you an outfit like they're very much like oh honey like you i'll help you zip it you know like it it it's a little heartwarming in a way that i think that sometimes they're like this is your best friend but behind your back she's doing something like this you know 95% of female friendship is zipping up our clothes for each other.

It's so, and that's going to make me tear up. It's beautiful. Yeah, so I will give it, yeah, I'll give it half a nipple for everything y'all said. And also because I do think that female friendship dynamic is beautiful. And I will give it to, hmm, what was the character, white woman, brown hair? There's like the redhead one, there's busy Phillips, and then there's breast. Lisa? Is that Jamie King?

Yes. Maybe. Okay. At one point, one of the white chicks is in the bathroom having a poop emergency and it's like, I'll be right out. And they're like, oh, are you having like a bad period? The redhead one offers a tampon. And Jamie King's character offers a pad. And I think that's empowering because there's so much discourse around tampons versus pads.

And pads get a lot of shit. And so she gets my half of nipple for being like, yeah, I'm a pad gal. That's very true. I was also surprised that those three white women weren't like, ooh, you're pooping. gross oh my god they were just like you seem to be maybe you need a minute by yourself that's their friend you know yeah yeah if my friend was shitting up my bathroom I would be like are you good otherwise shit away girl I'll give you some privacy yeah I'll give you some space that is true that is true I think that a lesser movie would have the women turn against each other in a cat like

I think that they they go they go so heavy into like bimbo territory that they neglect to go catty. Yeah. Yeah. And we got them in that way, ladies. We got them. We got them ladies. So actually this movie deserves five nipples.

Oh gosh. Well, Taylor, thank you so much. This has been a blast. Truly. This is a dream come true. I can't wait to record another one next week. Truly, come back. It doesn't have to be about white chicks.

Come back anytime. Come back next week, the week after all of the weeks. I can't wait. I'm going to watch so many movies. Thank you both for having me on. I love you both dearly. And you're both like really pretty. I hope that's okay to say.

Oh, my God. Thank you. You're the most beautiful woman in the world. Oh, wait, sorry, I got to be catty. Yeah. Pretty nice. See, I'm bad at. I'm bad at it.

Damn. Thank you. I think I'm pretty nice. Yeah. No, I'm hurt. We're all gorgeous. We're all such good people. And that's why we're friends.

Yeah, the gorgeousness doesn't even matter. I want to make that clear. But it is an objective truth about you both inside and out. And you as well. Likewise. Thank you. I love you. Tell us where people can follow you on social media, plug anything you want to plug.

Sure. You can find me on Instagram at at Taylor Garon. You can find me on Twitter at Taylor and Garon. I'm not proud of that. I'm on TikTok at Taylor Garon. I got to post more. My manager is like kind of getting on my ass about it. but yeah Instagram's your best bet and I do stand up in New York in L.A.

Yeah, I'm a recurring teacher on Abbott Elementary. So if you watch it, I will pop up and say something for comic relief every couple of episodes. Be on the lookout for that. Love it. Yeah, and I got some ions in the fire. So keep in eye on me. I may not be the most famous Taylor. But that of course being Taylor Lautner.

Just kidding. Yeah. And his wife. And then followed by it. Unfortunately, Taylor Lawner. then Taylor Garen and then I think Taylor Swift is like 15. Yeah. Yeah.

She's on the list. She's really taking the one for the team because you don't want to be that famous, you know? Yeah. It's true. It's true. I heard that the Taylor's Lawtoner are having a baby and they are considering making the most annoying choice they could possibly make. To name it Taylor.

Just put it as a middle name and call it Taylor. How much attention do you guys need? All right. Come on. I would do it. I think it's funny. I would absolutely do it. I think people should name their kids, like, do a bit when they're naming their kids.

Yeah. Ultimately, that's what having a kid is for. I agree. That is true. The psychological torture angle is, I wouldn't say it's slept on, actually. It's popular. Yeah. Yeah.

My parents did it. Yeah. Not to my name, just like in their kind of actions, you know. Anyway. And raising me, yes. Sure, sure, sure, sure. Well, yes. Thank you so much, Taylor.

Everyone follow Taylor. and go watch her shows and watch Abbott Elementary and everything. And then you can follow us on Instagram at Bechtelcast. You can subscribe to our Patreon, aka Matrion at patreon.com slash Bechtelcast, where we post two bonus episodes every single month. You can come see us on tour. In the middle of October, we are touring throughout the northeast. So we will be in New York.

We'll be in Boston. We'll be in Pittsburgh. We'll be in State College. We'll be in Baltimore. We'll be in Philadelphia. Delphia. I think that's all of them with more dates to come all around the country for our 10th anniversary. Go to Link Tree slash Bechtelcast for tickets to those shows. And with that, let's, oh, gosh, how do we wrap this one? Let's make our way downtown, walking fast in a vase and gorgeous.

Do you guys want to say, I'll say the N-word on three? Okay, ready? One, two. It cuts out. Bye. Bye. Yes. The Bechtelcast is a production of IHeart Media, hosted and produced by me, Jamie Loftus. And me, Caitlin Durante. The podcast is also produced by Sophie Lichtenen. And edited by Caitlin Durante. Ever heard of them? That's me. And our logo and merch and all of our artwork, in fact, are designed by Jamie Loftus, ever heard of her? Oh, my God. And our theme song, by the way, was composed by my capital.

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