The Bechdel Cast - Zola with Jameelah Nasheed

Episode Date: February 24, 2022

On this episode, Caitlin and Jamie take a wild road trip down to Florida with special guest Jameelah Nasheed to discuss Zola!(This episode contains spoilers)For Bechdel bonuses, sign up for our Patreon at patreon.com/bechdelcast.Follow @meelanash on Twitter. While you're there, you should also follow @BechdelCast, @caitlindurante and @jamieloftusHELP Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017 was assassinated. Crooks Everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. To listen to new episodes one week early and 100% ad-free, subscribe to the iHeart True Crime Plus channel, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. In California during the summer of 1975, within the span of 17 days and less than 90 miles, two women did something no other woman had done before, try to assassinate the president of the United States. One was the protege of Charles Manson.

26-year-old Lynette Fromm, nicknamed Squeaky. The other, a middle-aged housewife working undercover for the FBI. Identified by police as Sarah Jean Moore. The story of one strange and violent summer, this season on the new podcast, Rip Current. Hear episodes of Rip Current early and completely ad-free and receive exclusive bonus content by subscribing to iHeartTrue Crime Plus, only on Apple Podcasts.

There's so much beauty in Mexican culture, like mariachis, delicious cuisine, and even lucha libre. Join us for the new podcast, Lucha Libre Behind the Mask, a 12-episode podcast in both English and Spanish about the history and cultural richness of lucha libre. And I'm your host, Santos Escobar, emperor of Lucha Libre and a WWE Superstar. Listen to Lucha Libre Behind the Mask on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you stream podcasts. Hey, Caitlin. Yes, Jamie. individualism the patriarchy's effing vast start changing it with the bechdel cast hey caitlin yes jamie you look really familiar um do you want to go on a road trip to florida and just see what happens i think that's a great idea and i don't see how anything could go wrong every story that starts with an unsolicited invitation to florida has canonically ended well so i would encourage you to you know come along and it's gonna it's gonna be so regular

um who's all going oh well um you know just a couple guys oh okay cool sounds good and safe yeah it's gonna be safe regular and i'm telling the truth so nice shall we let's go all right let's do it uh well you know i did my best that was my intro i loved it they're not all hits but it is related to the movie welcome to the bechtel cast uh my name is jamie loftus my name is caitlin durante and this is our show where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens using the Bechdel test simply as a jumping off point to initiate a larger conversation. But what is the Bechdel test? I don't remember. I'll tell you. Okay. It's a mediometric created by a queer cartoonist, Alison Bechdel, sometimes called the Bechdel-Wallace test.

There are many versions of it. This is the one that we use currently. Two people of a marginalized gender must have names and they must speak to each other about something other than a man for a two-line exchange of dialogue at least. and ideally that exchange of dialogue is narratively meaningful and important and today we're gonna be covering a movie that has it's a newer movie but it's been requested on the show since i think the trailer came out i feel like that happens with newer movies sometimes like the second the trailer drops our listeners are like but due to the pandemic it's kind of taken a while for this movie to really become accessible but now that it has we're thrilled to be covering it and we have a wonderful guest coming to uh discuss the movie of the day which

is zola and our guest is a writer and op-ed columnist for Teen Vogue. It's Jamila Nasheed. Hi. Thank you so much for having me. Welcome. Thanks for coming. Thanks for coming on. So tell us about your relationship with the movie Zola or just kind of your general feelings about it, your general experience with it. Yeah, well, so I saw it in 2020 at Sundance Film Festival. Cool. Yeah, it was really cool. That was my first Sundance. That's amazing. It was it was definitely amazing.

And it's funny, because I had no intention on seeing it. Like, you know, we take a look at the program initially, and you kind of read like the synopsis of all the films and I don't know I for some reason I just it wasn't at the top of my list but I was chatting with my editor at Teen Vogue on like which films they'd like me to cover and they specifically asked for Zola so I was like sure I'll do it um but I wasn't like pressed to see it immediately um so I didn't go to the premiere but quickly as I'm there, like I'm there for maybe like a day or two before I saw it. And it's hands down the movie that I was hearing about the most, like everyone because you know, you're out, you're at dinners. Again, this is

pre pandemic. Like right just before the pandemic to like weeks, it was literally the last thing that I did before the pandemic that's so wild a lifetime ago um but yeah so everyone was talking about this movie and I'm like what is going on everyone just had nothing but amazing things to say about it so I was really excited to see it um and then I finally like fitted into my schedule and I had a plan to see it and I actually stayed at two different hotels while I was at Sundance because I was learning the ropes. Sundance is like a whole, like you have to, I think you have to go at least once to kind of figure it out. And then after the first time, okay, so this is what to do. This is where to stay. So I checked into my second hotel and it's the day that I'm going to see Zola and there's a a steam room there, and that's, like, that's my jam.

So I go down to the steam room. It's Park City, Utah. All I brought were, like, my snow boots. So I have, like, you know, like, my swimsuit, but I have a robe on over it and just, like, snow boots. And I'm going into the steam room, and I come out, and I'm just looking kind of crazy, and I see Jeremy O'Hara's in my hotel.

I'm like, oh, my gosh. And he um one of the co-writers of the film yeah and I'm like fangirling over him and I'm just kind of like are you Jeremy O'Hara's and then we're like chatting a little bit I'm like I'm actually gonna see Zola tonight he's like well I'll see you there and I'm like cool so um nice this story has no purpose but no it's exciting it's all very exciting though I was like any Sundance story I'm like yeah tell me who's in the steam room what no so he wasn't in the steam room so that's what that was the embarrassing part because I feel like he was looking at me like what are you doing like why are you wearing this what is happening I don't think he knew what you know and then I bumped into him at least two more times in the hotel and I was wearing the same

thing each time so I was coming wearing the same thing each time. So I was coming from the same room each time. I was like, I feel like he probably thinks I'm stalking him and I'm just like kind of being a weirdo. But yeah, so I went to I went to the screening later that night. And of all the films that I saw there, the audience was just like it was so lively. It was just you could feel it. Everyone was just having it was it felt like a ride. It was, I don't know, the energy in there was just so big.

And, you know, the film is complex. It addresses so many different things. But at the same time, it is just like, just from beginning to end, you're just like in it. It is such a romp. It's such a romp that's that sounds like so much fun oh I want to go to Sundance someday I know like it's if it's it's happening as we record this I think it's going on right now but it's like still all digital right I was supposed to be there you know and then they're like no they're like it's virtual so I've been

watching Sundance films for the past several days here at home. Basically the same thing as being in a steam room and running into Jeremy O. Harris. Basically. Jamie, what about you? What's your experience and general thoughts toward the movie? I was very, very excited to see this movie because when the Twitter, I mean, I just remember being on Twitter. I've been too online my entire life. And I remember being on Twitter the day that the Zola Twitter threat was like happening.

And so it was I made sure I got the date right. It was October 27th, 2015, which means I had just moved to LA and I was just so lonely and on my phone a million percent of the time. And so I forget who it was, but someone like put me onto the fact that this was like a story being told in process. And then a few days later, I read the whole story and quickly it was, if I'm remembering the sequence of events correctly, it was very soon after and this speaks to the 2015 of it all that james franco acquired the rights to this movie and this was a time where we were all still supposed to be like woohoo james franco which we but anyways i

remember the i remember being everyone who read it very, very taken in by the Twitter thread. The discourse around the Twitter thread at the time was all over the place. So when I found out that the movie was actually coming out, I was really excited to see it. And I don't know. I mean, there's just so much to talk about with this movie. And I'm't know. I mean, there's just so much to talk about with this movie. And I'm excited to discuss. I mean, of the many takeaways of this movie, Taylor Page is so good. Is one of my main takeaways.

Caitlin, what's your history with this movie? I don't think I knew about the Twitter thread until after the movie came out. I mean, I saw the movie in theaters in summer of 2021 when it was like right at the beginning of we're vaccinated and theaters are opening back up. And will I die if I go to see Space Jam? I don't know, but I'm willing to take the risk because it's Space Jam. You know, that was my thought process. Anyway, I felt okay about going to the theater

and I had heard good things about Zola. And I think by that point knew that it was based on a Twitter thread, but I hadn't read it. And I just kind of went into the movie, not knowing much about it at all, and was blown away by the humor of it and the just wild events of what is a mostly true story. And like we've said, it's, there's a lot to unpack. There's a lot of like commentary the movie's doing that's really interesting. And I'm excited to get into it. But yeah, I saw it a little

less than a year ago in theaters. Really liked it. Have watched it a couple times since then. And how was your theater experience? Like, was it crowded? There is, it was not very crowded. But the other thing is, like, I will go to the movies on like, a Tuesday at 11am by myself a lot of the time where like, no one else is there. So it might have been one of those because I know the movie didn't make a ton at the box office. I think it had a pretty limited release. And and you know it wasn't a huge blockbuster or anything yeah which was so crazy because at sundance i could be wrong but i feel like it was if not the first big sell like it was one of the first films to sell like it had a lot of hype and i don't know and after i saw it i was like oh this is going to be like huge at the box

office this is going to be something that like like is going to come out in the summertime and everyone's going to be there and it's going to be like sold out theaters. So just the fact that it didn't really get to come out, you know, during a normal time. Yeah, right. It does seem like that it bums me out because it seems like it would have been way more of like a big hit in terms of like just people seeing it if it had come out i don't know because they know that they delayed the release of it so many times and then it was like it feels wild to say now but there was a time where summer 2021 seemed like a pretty safe bet yeah and even then i mean i feel like it came out and then delta was that and like it was up against a bunch of other stuff that also had gotten delayed for the past year and a half that were like major you know highly

anticipated blockbusters you know you're like james bond movie a couple marvel movies things like that so it was up against those things and i think that if it had been released closer to like the end of the year it would have gotten gotten more like Oscar buzz and stuff like that. Sure. But yeah, I think there was just like kind of, there were a few things that were like kind of working against it. I don't remember a lot of marketing for the movie either.

So I don't know. I do wish it had performed better at the box office though. It's true. Anyway, should I get into the recap and then we'll go from there sure sure yeah and then feel free to jump in whenever okay all right so we open on two women zola played by taylor page and stephanie played by riley kio i think it's kio kio yeah she's uh because every movie has some sort of weird nepotism attached she's elvis nepotism whoa yeah did not know that there you go now you know like a niece or something i think granddaughter

oh my is that right i think so could be wrong but i just know the elvis connection too yeah how about that yeah elvis nepotism you don't get that you don't get that every day yeah elvis's granddaughter huh wow uh so the two of them are putting on makeup and then zola breaks the fourth wall and says i think verbatim of the tweet that also kicked off the twitter thread you want to hear a story about how me and this bitch here fell out it's's kind of long, but it's full of suspense. Then we get text on the screen that says, on October 27th, 2015, at underscore Zola R. Moon tweeted the following in 148 tweets, and then it says, most of what follows is true.

So we flashback to Zola meeting Stephanie at a restaurant where Zola works as a server. I think canonically in real life, that restaurant was Hooters. Shout out to the place where I did work as a delivery driver. True story. I was a Hooters delivery driver for a summer in State College, Pennsylvania. Thank you so much. It's a fun fact. Thank you. I have a lot of stand-up material about it. So Zola meets Stephanie. Stephanie recognizes her because they both dance slash work as strippers.

We then see them dancing together. They're hanging out. They're becoming friendly. And the next day, Stephanie invites Zola on a trip to florida so they can dance at some clubs and make a bunch of money we see zola say goodbye to her boyfriend and then she sets off on this trip with stephanie as well as stephanie's roommate whose name zola won't learn for a while he is played by coleman domingo but we'll come to find out he goes by x we also meet stephanie's boyfriend derek who is played by cousin greg nicholas

nicholas braun who is most famous for succession but also he's also famous for Sky High. I was going to say. If you happen to be a Sky High kid. I'm seeing him. He's in Sky High as Zach. Good for him. And Coleman Domingo has been in a bajillion things. I feel like he's on a real hot streak right now. Yeah, I'm obsessed with him. Like I'll watch anything with him in it.

He's great. So it's a 20-hour drive to Tampa, and on the way we can start to sense that Zola is getting uncomfortable and apprehensive about this trip, mostly because of the people who are on it and their behavior. They arrive in Tampa and drop Derek off at this grungy motel, then they head to the strip clubs. It's pretty uneventful at first then stephanie takes some photos of the two of them and sends them to x and it turns out he is stephanie's pimp and he uses these photos to set up an ad on back page which i think is now defunct but yeah there's it's so funny because it's like canonical to the story that this took place uh sometime in 2015 but it's just so wild I was like oh that's like five you know less than five years after this movie comes out and so much of the internet that they're using and referring to is like feels so old and so like using a Facebook status for revenge I'm like oh were we ever so young right

so Backpage as Zola points out is a place where you can buy and sell sex Zola is not interested in this whole Backpage ad thing so she tries to leave X threatens her, so she has no choice but to stay. And then he takes Zola and Stephanie to a hotel where he has arranged for several men to meet them there for sex. Zola confronts Stephanie, saying, you know, no shade and no shame, but this is not what you told me I was coming here to do. I just thought we would be dancing. And then Stephanie is saying, oh, I didn't know this was going to happen either, but I'm scared and I don't want to be alone. So Zola feels kind of guilted into staying. We will later learn that this is Stephanie being manipulative, but Zola lets the first guy into the room stephanie has sex with him while

zola just has to awkwardly hang by the door and stare at the wall we get her voice over it says they start fucking it was gross one of my favorite lines of the movie i know it gets called back to later you know it's like yeah it's amazing both times yes uh this first guy the the john he leaves after paying stephanie 150 which zola comments is way too low she says pussy is worth thousands and she posts a new ad for stephanie for 500 a pop. Meanwhile, Derek is trying to call Stephanie. He can't get a hold of her. He doesn't know what's happening. He's clearly insecure about what she does for a living. He leaves the motel room to find some food and then meets this guy, another name we won't know for a while slash I don't know if we ever do learn his name i don't know that's actually a good question but he does some magic tricks and kind of befriends derek then back in

the hotel room we get a montage of stephanie having sex with several men she makes a lot of money eight thousand dollars which she has to hand over to X the next day. He takes most of it. He gives Zola some, doesn't give Stephanie any. He's also immediately suspicious of the guy Derek had befriended the night before. X thinks that this guy is going to slit their throats and steal the money they made. So they have to rush out of there and go to another hotel x's behavior gets even more erratic he continues to intimidate zola he brings in this random woman who's pointing a gun around we find out or if you

like read the twitter thread you learn that she is x's fiance yeah i or at least like his serious girlfriend or something like that but yeah there it's like contextual i reread the thread for to prepare for for this and it holds up it's classic american literature American literature. I'm serious. Truly, I agree. Yeah. So she's pointing a gun around, then X gives Zola a gun. Zola also finds out that Stephanie has done the same thing before with other women where she kind of invites them along and it turns out to be a setup. Zola is obviously very betrayed and pissed. Derek is also mad at Stephanie for kind of just having this general profession and lifestyle. He tries to, quote, save her by shaming her on social media. She says, I don't want to be saved.

Then they head to this house. Another thing that X had apparently arranged for them. A group of men are about to gangbang stephanie and then the point of view shifts to stephanie's point of view and we get her version of the story based on a series of her posts on reddit from october 30th 2015 a few days after zola had posted her original Twitter thread. She explains how she meets Zola, how it was Zola's idea to take the trip, not hers, how Stephanie doesn't know anything about stripping because she's a Christian.

She talks about how Zola is jealous. And Stephanie's version of the story is extremely racist toward Zola specifically. Yeah, which very much comes across in the movie as well i mean in the way that that whole sequence is like framed and told and totally yeah then we cut back to zola's point of view she and stephanie go to another hotel to meet more clients but it's a setup the client is the guy who Derek had befriended, the magic trick guy. Google says he's the rival hustler. Yes. So he's also a pimp. He and this other guy, Cece, abduct Stephanie. Zola

manages to get away and calls X, who drags Zola back to the hotel along with Derek to get Stephanie back. It's a very intense hostage situation. Guns are being pointed around but then X finally gets the upper hand and everyone gets out and goes back to X's Tampa house. Zola is like I gotta get out of here. Derek begs Stephanie to leave with him it's kind of implied that she wants to stay and make more money uh which is also how the true story goes as well um and then he threatens to suicide and then jumps off the balcony but he doesn't die because we cut to ex-Zola Stephanie and Derek who is bleeding and badly injured they're in the car driving presumably back to where they all live which I think is

Detroit that is the end of the movie let's take a quick break and then we'll come back to discuss. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017, was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unhurts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks. Daphne exposed the culture of crime and corruption

that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. And she paid the ultimate price. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. To listen to new episodes one week early and 100% ad-free, subscribe to the iHeart True Crime Plus channel, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. This summer, the nation watched as the Republican nominee for president was the target of two assassination attempts separated by two months.

These events were mirrored nearly 50 years ago when President Gerald Ford faced two attempts on his life in less than three weeks. President Gerald R. Ford came stunningly close to being the victim of an assassin today. And these are the only two times we know of that a woman has tried to assassinate a U.S. president. One was the protege of infamous cult leader Charles Manson. I always felt like Lynette was kind of his right-hand woman. The other, a middle-aged housewife working undercover for the FBI in a violent revolutionary underground.

Identified by police as Sarah Jean Moore. The story of one strange and violent summer. This is Rip Current. Available now with new episodes every Thursday. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I felt too seen. Um, dragged. I'm NK, and this is Basket Case.

So I basically had what back in the day they would call a nervous breakdown. I was crying and I was inconsolable. It was just very big, sudden swaps of different meds. What is wrong with me? Oh, look at you giving me therapy, girl. Finally, a show for the mentally ill girlies. On Basket Case, I talk to people about what happens when what we call mental health is shaped by the conditions of the world we live in. Because if you haven't noticed, we are experiencing some kind of conditions

that are pretty hard to live with. But if you struggle to cope, the society that created the conditions in the first place will tell you there's something wrong with you. And it will call you a basket case. Listen to Basket Case every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

And we're back. Before we get into it, I just wanted to something that I thought was like, one of the funnier details or one of the things that I remembered from the Twitter account that got changed for the movie. And I'm like, I wonder is that when in in Zola's Twitter thread when Derek or the Derek his name is Jared in real life same energy uh but when when Derek jumps off the balcony in the Twitter thread like so the true story he doesn't even hit the ground because his pants get like caught on something so he's just like hanging and then Stephanie and X have to like pluck him off like he's like a little cat stuck in a tree right but then I also read that real life Zola whose name is Asia King she admits to having

embellished some of the details of the story and Jarrett's suicide attempt. Apparently, unless I'm misunderstanding this, but the way I read it, he threatened suicide, but never attempted it. So that's something that like Asia King embellished to make the story a bit more cinematic, I suppose. I mean, it worked on me. I think about that all the time. I'm like, he got caught and he was just hanging there wow all right well she's an amazing writer uh that's the point of it all right like where yeah where where to begin where do we want to start here good question I will say

that I don't know there's a lot about this movie that I feel a little out of my depth with in terms of like the representation of sex work in general and specifically black sex workers which is something that like media has not represented well or thoughtfully or meaningfully throughout history from what I could tell with the various, you know, articles I read and accounts from sex workers responding to Zola's story, and I found stuff that was mostly a response to the Twitter thread rather than the movie itself. I couldn't find a lot about, like, sex sex workers responses to Zola the movie, but I did find some stuff from black sex workers who comment on how they felt seen by this Twitter thread. I'm pulling from a quote in an article from Now Toronto entitled,

How Zola Made Space for Black Sex Workers Stories with a Twitter Thread. Quote, according to Ellie, I'm not sure if it's Ade Kerr or Ellie Aide Kerr, from Maggie's Toronto Sex Worker Action Project, every black exotic dancer remembers the moment they were reading that thread for the first time and then this is Ellie quoting it spoke to so many workplace dynamics that a lot of us were used to it was so exciting because it was a narrative told from the perspective of another black sex worker that's what made it so relatable." End quote. So I saw a lot of responses like this to the story, especially the Twitter thread. And I imagine that would extend

into the movie as well, because the movie seems so faithful to the thread and is a well-directed movie by Janixa Bravo. Yeah. So yeah, I kind of feel the same. Like, after seeing it, like before I even wrote my review, which, you know, it's, it's not even like a deep dive review. Because at this at the time, I was still processing it, because I had to write it like, immediately. And my gut reaction initially, like after I saw it, I was like, there's a lot going on here. But I'm into it. I liked it. I like the packaging of it. I like the, there's a lot going on here, but I'm into it. I liked it. I like the packaging of it. I like the presentation of it overall.

But then again, there's the whole fact of it being about such heavy, heavy topics, you know, like sex work and sex trafficking. Right. And then also just having a Black woman on screen. And I'm personally, I mean, I'm a Black woman. And I am a little sensitive about the depiction of Black women on screen and just like exploitation and just making sure that, you know. But as I was reading more about it, because Jamie, unlike you, I was not familiar with the Twitter thread. And I feel like I can't, I shouldn't say that as a Black person. But I wasn't really heavy. That was like my first semester of grad school. I was not really on the, I wasn't, I shouldn't say that as a Black person. But I wasn't really heavy.

That was like my first semester of grad school. I was not really on the, I wasn't on Twitter like that back then. Understandable. But as I was doing research, as I was writing about it, I became much more comfortable with the film because like you said, Jamie, initially it was going to be in James Franco's hands. And that is terrifying and I believe I read I don't know if it was Rolling Stone I read somewhere where Asia was

talking about it and just uh saying that things were progressing because there were two different writers I believe attached to it when James Franco was attached to it and they were also white men and it was just changing the story was not it didn't feel honest to her and reading more about her perspective just like as a person as like a human and her relationship with janixa and jeremy o'harris and like and also taylor um it made me a lot more comfortable i was like well regardless of what the content is like whether or not it makes people uncomfortable or it makes people just question things i'm like if this is her story then I'm here for it so like I appreciated the film as just being like this black woman had the opportunity to tell her story and you know

and she also spoke in some interview about people were questioning her at first like the validity of it but she was saying if she was a white woman she felt very confident that people would just believe her um so they there was like fact checking done like rolling stone did yeah they did like an article yeah because that's like part of what the story i think that that's like it's based on the twitter thread and the rolling stone right i'm pretty sure yeah yes yes yeah so she was like after the rolling stone piece she's like that is when people really started to pay attention to it or like engage with it in a way like oh this is like an actual story yeah i i read asia talking about that as well and just the fact that you know her story was treated with such a hefty dose of

skepticism until it like you were saying jamila like until it was fact-checked and formally quote-unquote endorsed by a white journalist at a legacy publication and then once that happened it's like oh okay well now we can we can take this seriously which is like I feel like just so telling yeah yeah for sure which yeah the rolling stone article it recounts part of this story that the movie doesn't cover where after yes okay zola gets back to detroit with uh jarek and it has told the stephanie character whose real name is jessica she's told Jessica, like, I'm never talking to you again. Lose my number. Don't call me kind of thing.

She gets a call from her a few days later. She's calling from a jail in Vegas or she's been arrested in Vegas. Yeah. because i mean it's obvious from the movie that the x character who in real life goes by z so a different letter at the end of the alphabet but this this z guy was like a known trafficker there's another part of the story where like they had basically abducted these two young women and were trafficking them and they got arrested. And then Z had a long history of doing this. Yeah. And like a few murder charges.

Including minors. Right. Yes. Which makes me kind of like, so I'm kind of like in a weird headspace now after having read that article and thinking like oh this the story gets so much darker it's already quite dark and manages a comedic tone but also appropriately like lets you know when a serious thing is happening and then when it's appropriate to laugh it lets you laugh but the story the dark story does get darker and now

i'm like oh my like i kind of even though this is like guilty for like laughing and yeah in in a way that i'm like well is it okay that this movie kind of makes i mean arguably sort of makes light of sex trafficking. Right. And is that distinction between like sex work that sex workers do willingly and sex trafficking that people are obviously forced into and doing against their own free will? Is that distinction made clear enough in the movie? I think so. But I now kind of have different questions about some aspects of the whole story. I agree. It is really, I mean, especially, I think in particular with the issue of human trafficking, because it is such a historically poorly portrayed and dealt with topic in movies and still now is like

barely discussed i know that i like personally don't have the knowledge base to be able to make any sort of call of like how this movie in particular's portrayal fares but i'll say as a viewer i did find it a little bit confusing where i i guess there were moments where i was as a viewer i was didn't feel like the lines were made completely clear which in some ways could just be another way of putting you in zola's shoes of like Zola slowly realizing that this has crossed from one area to another but there were I don't know like I I struggled with that element of it and then it's it's tricky because when you're dealing with real life people who are still I mean this happened six years ago very much alive I feel like it gets into this existential question that we kind of can't

really answer of like can you make omitting something that huge a creative choice you know like it's just it's and I don't have an answer to that I don't know right I definitely also felt really conflicted just because of everything you just said about just because I enjoyed the film so much and I didn't walk away from the film feeling the way that I would have thought that I would have felt if I was told that I was about to walk into a theater and see a movie about sex traffic well that's like that like has sex trafficking and a lot of violence and just like the topics and the issues that this film you know covers but i don't know like i don't know if it does a good job of of really separating you know sex work from sex trafficking and kind of like depicting them in totally different ways but i part of me feels

like it did an okay job just because like with the zola character i felt like she was very comfortable with who she was and her identity as a sex worker from the very beginning and even like when they got to the when they got to florida and they're in the strip club just like that little scene where she's like who you gonna be today and she's like yeah dressing up and it's like it's her thing like she's like shining and she's just in it and then even when she's on stage before that guy says she looks like whoopi goldberg which was which was that was that was so strange um but her face was just like everything taylor page she was just amazing in it she's so good she's so good but I just felt like I felt like

her identity and you know her ownership of being a sex worker I felt like she felt comfortable in that and then when the sex trafficking came along like she made it clear like you know where her boundaries were but it also didn't feel like she was necessarily shaming Stephanie's character yeah right

which she even says in a line of dialogue that I think might have been added for the movie I don't know if this was included in the twitter thread is something that like i think it was added but i thought that that was a really smart addition yeah because she says uh no shade no shame do you but that is not what you told me i was coming down here to do so like the zola character is you know saying if that's what you want to do by all means knock yourself out but like you told me something different and now you're betraying my trust and so like right but yeah i think the movie does make the clear distinction but i guess my concern is that people you, like the swerfs out there who already

conflate sex work that's done willingly and consensually and being a victim of sex trafficking, those people might see this movie and like jump to the wrong conclusions and mistakenly think that this movie proves their point because of how close Zola comes to becoming a victim of sex trafficking. But I don't know. To your point, the question does remain like, because I'm not well versed enough in it either to like really feel like I can really just stand in a firm just stance on this. But like, it definitely, like I said before, it didn't feel as heavy as i feel like it could have been or maybe should have been to some people's points you know because of the topic

but at the same time i think the fact that it didn't for me i was like maybe this is the film's way of kind of showing how easy it is to kind of get swept into it i don't know if that does that even make sense yeah it is no that totally does yeah actually that's that's one thing about the movie that i was like zola is a passive observer yeah of the events of the story more so than a like traditional protagonist of a movie who's like especially like a hero's journey type story who is like making way more active choices. Um, I guess that's just like the nature of the, of like things that happen to you in real life. Uh, it makes for an interesting movie adaptation though.

Cause it's like, okay, well we have this, this like character who's the protagonist who is mostly an observer of events. She is making active choices here and there, but I found that kind of, I don't know, just interesting, I guess. I kind of, I mean, maybe I'm like reaching here, but I kind of liked, I mean, I feel like the movie puts you in like,

even though it's like, yeah, she's not like super active in the traditional sense of like, I'm doing this and I'm doing this. I feel like Janicza Bravo did a really good job of making the act of observing feel active because it's like zola has to be so like watching everyone's every move to the point where it's obviously very very draining in order to like survive the experience so even though it's like it didn't feel like i mean obviously it's like this movie's also just following a twitter thread of someone recounting observing people but i felt like she did a really good job of putting you in like it's not that she's not being active because like it's because she feels like she can't and like has to be so careful about what she chooses to do and not

do say and not say stuff like that and i don't know i thought the movie did a good job of like putting you in that yeah headspace definitely it definitely did that for me too um and also just like i don't know like her like how quiet she was and and just the observing i think that was kind of like her superpower i think that's kind of how she like made it out alive or how she was able to kind of re-establish or just like just get her own power or get like get her own authority like throughout the story because it felt like the story was it was kind of going off the rails and then it was but it was like but she's still felt so firm in her power as like a character or as a person so and I think I think that silence and I think

that the observing of everything kind of just like helped her navigate it but it also just felt it just also felt really telling just like or just interesting to watch her just like a black woman on screen just like navigating all of this stuff and just like she's experiencing so much violence like even the like the non-physical violence just like just the whole experience, the chaos of it all. And just like it's just so much violence just coming at her and she's just like internalizing it and just like looking at it. And that just felt very relatable to me and just like for like my existence or even the existence of like other black women so that was really interesting to me just like watching how she just kind of dealt with all of that and then found a way found a way to like navigate a space and then hearing asia talk about it

she just talks like the twitter thread she like says it was her like the writing of it all because i mean it's comedic in the twitter thread as well but it's like but the writing of it all was like healing for her it was like it was traumatizing like she will you know it was a trauma like it's a it's a funny movie and you know in certain points but it was at its heart like a trauma and like that was how she processed it I think turning it into something that I guess we could all like get on board with but also sometimes like the scariest things when you're out of it they're kind of like sometimes they can be kind of funny that's I mean yeah like humor is coping mechanism like yeah yeah right yeah yeah you like laugh so that you don't cry every day for the rest of your life kind of thing yeah yeah so I guess it like the the tone that I was like a little like is this kind of is

this tone sort of like mean that it's maybe making light of this scary and dangerous situation where again yeah she's she's often the victim of violence is that making light of all this but it is maintaining the same tone as the original twitter thread so right they're adapting her tone yeah yeah since that's how like zola chose to present this story then like you know who am i to say anything about tone and a person's healing process i can totally get someone who does like whenever someone tells me they've seen it i'm like so what do you think what did like i can if someone came to me and said i feel like it was like it minimized it and it wasn't like I could totally understand how someone could have that experience seeing it so there's that because you know part of me like I get that

but yeah like you said for me it was more like well if this is her story and this is how she presented it and she and like she's on board with how it was told. And I'm like, I will take it as it is. Yeah. But like but then there's a question of amplifying it. Like you said, like, is it is it problematic to amplify a story if it is something indeed that, you know, minimizes it? But I don't know. It's so hard. It's like it's it almost feels like well, it's like, well, of course, one movie couldn't tackle all of that.

But it is like it's an interesting discussion. I don't know. It almost feels like, well, of course, one movie couldn't tackle all of that. But it is like, it's an interesting discussion. I don't know. I feel like the way that I was able to, I still don't like 100% love the choices. And I very much understand the criticism. And it's like, I feel like in order to engage with the movie on its terms, you have to view it as like this is adapting the Twitter thread, like including apparently the embellishments that Asia King made that I didn't. I thought this guy was hanging off the side of a building from his pants like. Nope. And of course, the writers of the movie would have known that, but they choose to include it anyways because it's they're adapting

her story and the tone of how she told it in the way that she told it and in that way i feel like it's successful but i also very much see how it's like and again it's like this isn't on anyone involved in this movie but just because it's like the topic of human trafficking is so huge and so poorly represented in movies i feel like it always becomes like triple scrutinized when anyone even attempts to talk about it because it's like i mean i think about the sex trafficking and human trafficking story that i think i first saw in movie theaters unfortunately would have been like taken that's what i was gonna say and that uh i haven't analyzed it from that perspective and

again i'm not an expert but like not good safe to say not useful and i feel like there's so many stories about human trafficking that you know it's like some guy some action hero busts in and resolves human trafficking and the way that bodies are shot is very exploitative and very trauma porn essentially so the hero can come in and solve this societal ill in one scene right so i mean i think that it is very bold for a movie to even take on this topic because it's so loaded but i also like yeah obviously i don't think it was like handled perfectly but i don't know what that would look like i don't know i'm gonna say what could they do to make it like right like what could have been done right exactly so i'm just like and i know what would have been

horrible is james franco's version of the oh my gosh we know it wouldn't work and we have seen many examples of what doesn't work i don't I mean, if we have any listeners who have more knowledge on this topic than we do, or maybe could direct us to movies that that you feel has handled the subject of human trafficking relatively well, I'd be very interested to hear. I can't imagine that there will be for me, like a single film that will address it. Like the more I read on it, I just can't, I can't picture one film or one piece of just work or artwork. I can really depict it and it's an, all of its complexities, you know? So I think, I don't know, I've kind of take it, I take Zola as being just a contribution to the conversation, just like one perspective and one specific experience. I think for me, because again, to go back to what I said, I do feel like it just kind of shows how easily you could kind of just tread that line and just next thing you know, it happens. And also just, I don't know, because when I first learned about you know sex trafficking and human trafficking it seemed so big right like it's going to be a big operation like you're going to know

what's happening when it's happening you know and then this movie it kind of just I didn't know what was happening until it started like you know so yeah it almost presents it in a way that and this is gonna I'm gonna try to phrase this in a way that, and this is going to, I'm going to try to phrase this in a way that isn't, it almost makes human trafficking accessible. And by that, I mean, like, it like makes it so that you can understand that this is a thing that can happen on a very small scale where like basically two people are orchestrating a sex trafficking operation. There are obviously other examples of like human trafficking where it's a way bigger thing,

but I think it, it just sort of sheds a light on, yeah, this, this is sometimes how this goes down in a way that was like kind of eye-opening for me because yeah when i think of like because of the way it's represented in media i think of sex trafficking is like yeah someone gets abducted when they're on vacation in europe and then liam neeson has to find the movie has to find this enormous like outfit of of criminals there are hundreds of them who are just go and give a speech on the phone and like yeah i mean i think going back to what you were just saying jamila i feel like there is such a wide variety of of how this can take place and zola is showing you one way that it can take place and i mean and literally did in the case of this story which

i just i do still wonder i don't know i mean the the decision to withhold what ends up happening i don't i just don't know i agree yeah i agree i think the ending it definitely falls flat like that was definitely a missed opportunity and I think that definitely could have been something that, that kind of just tied it together in a way that acknowledged the severity of what happened. I think that may have been something that would have made, because like when I walked away from the film, like, I really enjoyed this film, but there's something, I don't know. And then I think that acknowledgement and that like really just addressing

like what really happens next and like who these people were and like how bad it was. Like, I think that would have helped. culpable for being part of this sex trafficking operation in a way that she should be like should be held more accountable by the movie i think i just kind of i also think that it's like knowing that information also serves zola i know that the movie is very focused on like obviously zola it is the name of the movie. But I think it also like serves Zola's character to like, that heightens this, like knowing what happens with Z and Jessica, X and Stephanie, whatever. And the real life consequences like that heightens the entire story that happened to Zola because it very easily could have been her. Like, I feel like it's all very very relevant and it also it's like you can address that in a couple of I don't know like

title cards at the end of the movie of like exactly those classic like here's what happened to this character here's what like I feel like that happens at the end of most true story movies I wonder if that was ever I'll just be curious to know if that was like included in any drafts or like what conversation led to that not being included yeah because if you don't google it literally just looks like they get away right right and like everyone just gets away and it's just like i don't know i'm like so did this happen you know like what yeah when the reality is like a week later things had changed so and it's like and it also is like so zola got out of this situation truly in like the nick of time like it's just so i don't know there's a lot of other stuff to talk about with this movie but i'm uh

and it's all it's all challenging uh let's take a quick break and then come back to talk about those things. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16, 2017, was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unhurts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks. Daphne exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were

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on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I wanted to talk about how the movie provides commentary on race. Like you have the character of Stephanie and her boyfriend, who are both white, appropriating elements of black culture in the language they use their kind of style hairstyles and the way they talk the way they talk and then direct a bunch of like racist microaggressions or macroaggressions at zola and i feel like the the movie is like providing this effective commentary on you know how white people like stephanie can appropriate blackness when it's convenient for them which they can then exploit to kind of give them more perceived coolness quote-unquote or like

perceived credibility but then obviously still benefit from all the privilege that being white affords them. Right. And fall back on that. I mean, it's like that sequence with like, Jessica's story or Stephanie's story perfectly illustrates her, you know, it's like we've seen her appropriating black culture and like, observing Zola so carefully in this creepy way for the whole movie. And then the second she needs to play the part of like innocent white girl of like i'm a christian i don't know what huh she plays that part to a t and like is very like it's just very clear what she's doing yeah yeah yeah it's a lot um um the black scent that was uh definitely a lot to get past in the beginning and but yeah throughout the film just watching her just appropriate black culture misappropriate it

i don't know um it was a lot but it was also like and it was uncomfortable it's like so uncomfortable but it's also just like unfortunate because it's like so realistic because there are definitely people like that um maybe not to that extreme but definitely that's definitely a thing and then but in this at the same time like just being racist it's just for sure there's that and then there's like the scene in the car where she's she turns around and she's talking to she's telling zola some story about some other girl just being so it's it's just very racist and then just zola's just like looking at her and i think that's one of the moments where zola's like okay like i made a mistake coming on this trip and um asia she said jessica um and her boyfriend in real life she said they were like using the

n-word the whole time and that's definitely the energy that you get from just the film even though they left it out of the film i don't know i haven't really unpacked it because it's just very unfortunately it just feels very familiar just like i've definitely i've witnessed this this type of energy in real life um and just like you know just I don't know I don't know I'm curious your thoughts on this I was surprised throughout the whole movie because Stephanie never drops this this is like how she talks and like how she behaves throughout the whole movie I expected at a certain point for Zola to like start calling her out for it or mention it or something it never happens and I'm I'm curious is to your thoughts and like

is that just like another kind of like mechanism that Zola and other black people one of those things it's like a choose your battles kind of thing where like, it's not worth it, or she's not worth it, or you know, something like that. Or I don't know, I just I was surprised that you never see that character who seems quite good at advocating for herself and like, understanding kind of boundaries and things like that, why she never calls the Stephanie character out for doing that. I mean, it made sense to me just because I've definitely met white people like that. And while I will have so many thoughts in my head, and I will talk to all of my black friends about it, because it's just like, what is what is happening here? I won't say anything to them. Because

I mean, I do think it's kind of like a pick your battles, but it's also just like, sometimes I'm like, maybe this person really thinks this is who they are. And I don't have the energy to sit here and to just like, let them know. Cause also like, if that is really like the persona that you're taking on unnecessarily, I feel like you might be someone who is not who is not going to be receptive to like a conversation on like why you're doing this right true and like and like who you because it's just I I just can't imagine like like that character I can't imagine she would have been any kind of receptive to it I feel like she would have kind of just dug her heels in even further and just like

gone harder to prove like no this is who I am right it just it seemed realistic to me because I can't imagine saying anything to a white person who's like that I just be like okay okay like I know that I need to avoid you moving forward yeah yeah you might not be someone that I can um trust but but Z, you know, I forget this sometimes that she was 19 when it happened. Because sometimes some people were just like, why would you go on like, what are you doing? Why would you go on this trip with this? But then it's like, she's 19. Right? 19 year olds do a lot of things. Yeah. They do a lot of things. And it's like, you might make some money. And you might just have it's a road trip. You know, I don't know, on the surface, and it's like you might make some money and you might just have it's a road trip you know i don't know on the surface maybe it sounded like it could have been like an adventure

and when you're 19 that's all you want right i mean i'm 35 and i make horrible choices frequently so she contextualizes it in the twitter thread by saying like i had gone down to florida to do something similar before and made fifteen thousand dollars000. And so it's like, right. I understand why she would like accept the invitation and also why it would have been clear to her. I mean, and it was clear to her very early on that like, this was not going to be the $15,000 trip. She was sort of it was alluded to it maybe being right. I thought it was interesting that Janixa Bravo was asked about basically like building the Stephanie character and Riley Keough. I mean, it's interesting reading about how the actors approached their parts differently because Asia King and Taylor Page spoke quite a bit like in the forming the movies Zola. Riley Keough did not speak to jessica

that was not a part of the approach but it sounded like um janice bravo and riley keough had discussions about like well how are we going to present this character how is she going to talk like how i basically it sounded like a conversation of like how far into this are we going to go and it sounds like Asia King has said to multiple press outlets like that's how Jessica talked and like that's just reflective of of the experience and I think that that should be reflected in the movie and Janic Sabravo agreed on that point and I do think I mean it's like I don't know I mean it's it's so ugly and cringy and painful to watch and it's like I'm I don't know I it seems like it was the right creative choice for the movie to do that because it's just an early indicator of like

who this character is yeah yeah yeah I agree and I also I read all that too about you know well Asia saying that that is how the character spoke but honestly even if she didn't say that that's exactly how I would picture this character um and then I also you know Janixa she like she really wanted to go all the way and like she got I believe like a dialect coach or everything for Riley like it was and then she was like no go deeper and it was cringy but it just I like I can't picture this character any other way even just from reading it and just like this is this is the kind of this is the kind of white woman that I would expect to have in this situation um yeah I think it does make it like it's supposed to be cringy it's not

like i mean because i feel like the the last time we've had a conversation about about black scent in movie it was about aquafina where it was like her characters using it in an like a completely not self-aware way in a way that was extremely misappropriative and exploitative and stealing an offensive stereotype of Black culture in order to lift yourself up. And that's not what's happening here. Yeah. Especially because of who is behind the camera in this movie.

Right. Exactly. And who's telling the story who's telling the story exactly like if james franco would have kept this film and it would have like that would have been that would not have landed that would not have landed well for a lot of us right exactly it reminds me of like every time like quentin tarantino puts himself in his movie and then he's like saying the n-word and we're just like why did what i can't i can't i can't yeah yeah so at least he doesn't seem to do it anymore

i guess well only because he's not allowed to do it yeah it's like check the date of when you're listening to this give it time not that you've said that we're gonna see a trailer in a month so something you conjured him caitlin oh i'm sorry everybody you said his name three times and now he's uncanceled uh but truly what a horrible uh person uh yeah no but yeah like totally i like it's totally different from the whole aquafina thing and it's i think that's the biggest part of zola for me. Because, again, going into it, I wasn't super familiar with the Twitter thread. I skimmed a few things before I walked in there because I was, like, preparing in my mind to write the article. And I learned more about the story.

So I was definitely cautious and nervous. And then when Stephanie began speaking, I was like, oh, for the whole movie, I have to sit through this. But just like holding on to the fact that Janixa, Jeremy O'Hare's co-writer, like there were Black people who were behind the telling of the story and the presentation of it. And also like Asia and just the fact that she still had, it seemed like she still had a lot of control over the narrative. I don't know, that made me feel like more comfortable with like what was happening right i mean but it's still like it sucked but it just but it also felt authentic there there are a lot of there are a lot of white people out there who who speak with blacks or like non-black people in general like you said like and it it's always cringy for sure this is maybe a good point to mention yeah like because we've made a lot of

reference to the like key creatives in this movie but just to like shout everybody out um so it's directed by jenixa bravo screenplay is by jenixa and jeremy o harris um but there's also i mean it's mostly uh women and people of color who are making the movie at the highest level, top to bottom. Obviously, Asia is involved. Dave Franco is still credited as a producer, which I have to imagine is some like leftover Franco related. I don't want to talk about it um but um we have a woman as the primary cinematographer ari wegner who also just did the power of the dog we have a um a woman and a black woman editing the movie joy mcmillan who had previously done moonlight and had worked worked on Janix's first feature Lemon that came out in 2017. Also edited If Beale Street Could Talk.

She's like huge. Yeah, she's done so much. And then also the music was written by Micah Levy, who I believe is non-binary. Yeah. So it is a very diverse team that's making this movie and i feel like yeah i mean it's again it's like i hate that we have to keep bringing up what the james franco iteration of this story would have been but it's like it would have been extremely different if yeah there were different creatives at the helm of this story and I really like how everything I've

read about the production of this movie sounds like Asia King was like meaningfully involved in every step of the way and sort of like giving her blessing as things were developing to be like no this is reflective of like the story that I want to tell and like giving her that agency I feel like is rare for any person who's who's writing is being adapted or whose story is being told but in particular a black woman describing a story of sex work like that I feel like that's never that's something that just doesn't happen in movies at all so it was cool to to see for sure i love that call out your call out of all of the people who you know were in charge of bringing this film to us you know from the top level um and just like being very or just pointing out the fact that there were so many women women of color

people of color non-binary people i think that's why because this film also like if you think about how it was visually it could have been a lot more chaotic and exploitive like um like i don't recall seeing very many new like naked women i mean you know yeah or just like in a way that felt, yeah. Yeah, I think we don't see female nudity. We see full frontal male nudity. Boy, do we. I've got a quote from Janessa Bravo here about her like approach to the visual because I was curious about that because it was like, I don't know, midway through the movie, I was like, wow, that is, of course, like, if you didn't know that a woman wasn't making this movie going into it, I feel like that is the key tell is like, that she doesn't jump to exploit women's bodies, unfortunately. but statistically they do um so here's what uh jenna sabravo said about specifically working

on like the framing with her cinematographer ari wagner she says um quote i wanted things to feel consensual i talked with ari who shot the film and katie the production designer about what consent looks and feels like in american films sometimes nudity on screen doesn't feel consensual. I was thinking about some Helmut Newton photographs and why they work for me. They're often so naughty and so sexual, but it feels like there is this consent between the photographer and the model, and the model feels in control of the narrative, even though she is not behind the lens. I wanted to find that the women felt taken care of. In exposing the men, it wasn ha i get to do it or i'm a woman and this is a woman's gaze there was maybe some politics there but it was really about being so much inside

what the women who were being bought were seeing unquote which i feel like comes across pretty clearly in the visual language of the movie i agree i also love this kind of ties back to what we were talking about a little earlier just those mirror scenes it's so alice in wonderlandy to me too like it's such a cool setup for a shot but just even how she uses those shots where there's that scene you were talking about earlier jamila where Zola is looking at herself and all these different outfits and like who are you going to be today Zola like that is such a cool way of showing like how this woman views herself and the different and also just like a cool I feel like it's I guess that's technically like a dress-up montage in the movie but it's just like telling you how different clothes make her

feel and like that's a I just loved it and then in the mirror scenes where Stephanie's present I feel like it's used in a totally different way where it's like Zola is able to see herself in the mirror Stephanie doesn't seem to really see herself she's she's looking at zola because she's like there's so much of zola's behavior that stephanie is trying to like imitate and take on as her own and i just i don't know those scenes were i thought were so well done and interesting no male gaze cinematography here here some gnarly dick shots yeah in a way that i'm also like is that shamey of different penis types because a lot of them like you get like i remember the one in particular that's like a very large penis i remember that getting a big laugh in the theater and then they had a heart on it got a like right yes which um what about people with small penises

and those are nice too anyway yeah i mean it's like i think that's definitely a discussion but it's like i don't know very low on this movie like on the list of priorities that i have to talk about with this movie right right right yeah and I and I thought it was interesting that it's like I feel like people are so quick to apply the like it's the female gaze when I I don't know I like that Janessa Bravo and she's like pretty consistently done this throughout her career kind of like pushes back against the very the more obvious interpretations of her own work and is like no here's where I was coming from this is what I was thinking about and

like you know yeah don't jump to the easiest interpretation of my work please yeah also like I think read or heard her say something about like because typically when it comes to sex work on screen it's it's I mean the women's bodies you know are the ones that are just all out there but then like she wanted to kind of just shine a light on the men who are involved with it. Because I feel like so many times we'll see like a whole scene like on sex work and it'll just be like the woman, the woman, the woman,

the guy will kind of have like, it's like he's not even present in what's happening. So it was kind of like, I feel like her way of really including them in the conversation and like saying no, like no, the act of what's happening here or whatever the situation may be, what's happening here is there is a man who's actively involved in it he's not just like a passing figure and i also another um and again it's like weird i can't speak on this with any sort of authority but something that worked for me in watching this movie was the subtle and not subtle ways that the story

acknowledges the stigma that comes with being a sex worker um and that kind of spans i mean the two examples i'm thinking of are in stephanie's case when derrick i mean like stephanie is awful no doubt about it but when when derrick basically outs her as a sex worker to her entire family, the response that that prompts from her, I feel like kind of addresses the stigma that is applied to her by her own family by knowing how she's supporting herself, even though she is a terrible person. I thought that was an interesting in-text way of addressing that. And then in Zola's case, it's I feel like even more subtle, but it made me so frustrated and sad for her where there's two times where people in her life, like Zola has a support system. She has people checking in with her from her life.

But my interpretation and let me know if I'm off here but was that she didn't I mean she talked to her boyfriend and her mom briefly throughout this trip and it just seems like she was not in a place with either of them where she felt comfortable being like hey I'm in danger in danger. And that like, I don't know, I, it's not something I can like, completely relate with. But it's like, you know, I don't know, especially remembering that this character is supposed to be 19, of like, you're in a horrible situation. And there is like this level of shame and embarrassment attributed to that situation to the point where you don't ask for help when someone who could probably help you reaches out I don't know it just that those

moments those like two moments for Zola really hit for me also yeah I forget if that was in the Twitter thread or not I think that she does mention her boyfriend reaching out and her not cluing him in to what's happening. I think that happens in the thread. I didn't even think about that. I think that's like an excellent point. That's another part of this movie that I really just have to process because I'm just like, I don't know. That's like it's either a discomfort because I think I mean her boyfriend knew to an extent like he knows he knows that she's a dancer like a stripper yeah right I don't know I don't know it's tricky I

don't know like there's like so many and there's so many little moments in this movie like that where you're like because that I feel like you could also interpret that as like you know whatever embarrassment for being in a dangerous situation. Or it could be a stigma issue or it could be a little bit of both. And it's like, you can't really know. I don't know. I wonder if one of the reasons we're so perplexed by a lot of this is we've just hardly seen this type of representation of sex workers in movies, like representation that is more nuanced and complex and actually centers sex workers as major characters and doesn't just put them in the background or make them a minor character. And we're just not used to seeing that because most of the

representation of sex work we have seen has been very stereotypical, very harmful, not very nuanced or meaningful. And even Asia King has discussed that pop culture gets sex workers wrong all the time and says, quote, either it's too glamorized or it's too dehumanized. It's never about just a sex worker who is confident enjoys their job and that's just who they are so i wonder if it's like partially because we've just seen so little representation on screen of that type of sex worker who you know enjoys what they're doing and it's just like her job she's like just her job yeah yeah she's like yeah i didn't i didn't tell my mom my boyfriend i'm literally just at work though i'll be fine fine. Yeah. Right. So which I mean,

just speaks to the need for more meaningful representations of sex work and sex workers on screen. So the general public can have a better understanding of what it's like. And because sex work is such a large spectrum the whole spectrum needs to be represented because because the only media i consume that involves sex workers on a regular basis is the porn that i watch which is also often i mean not that respectful to women but i found a few websites that are way better at it anyway i watch porn everybody brag i think we all watch porn caitlin that should be the tagline of this episode uh i yeah it's like and and like even speaking to like going off where you're just saying the fact that there are not more stories about sex workers where sex workers are meaningfully a part of the creative

process puts an undue amount of pressure on the movies that do address sex work like we've sort of talked about in a few points in this episode so far of just like there shouldn't be this much pressure on a single movie to address so much but the reason that that pressure the temptation to apply that pressure exists is because there's so few options so it's like this very it's it's fucked i guess yes yeah um i just wanted to shout out another shot that I really liked was the overhead shot of them peeing. And I just was like, perfect character. Like, I really love Janick Sabrazo's work. But like little stuff like that of like Zola is going to squat above the seat.

Stephanie is going to plant. And that tells you so much about those characters in a single shot. And the tissue. And then Zola uses tissue Stephanie does not use tissue and then the color of the urine you see their pee yeah this it's I loved that shot so much a man could not have and it's like that's like a uniquely like I could write a thesis on that like that right that shot like i just embarrassingly took a picture of it on my phone because i was like this is so like i just uh another big laugh in the theater and in conclusion

stephanie needs to drink more water oh my god she is dehydrated i was like well i unfortunately i've seen that piss before and i was never in a good place when I was pissing it um no wiping at all I know that's how you know she's the villain of the story

but yeah I just wanted to shout that shout out because it really um got a big old reaction out of me such smart and cool like there's no dialogue that's like amazing storytelling show don't tell anyways does anyone have any other thoughts about the movie i guess i mean i don't really feel the need to talk about derrick that much i do feel like I mean and this is again this is like it's hard like you can't really put it on Janick Sabravo and Jeremy O'Harris but it's like the

the way that suicide is presented in this movie is very jokey hee hee ha ha when it's implied in the story that he was seriously suicidal. And like the Derek character, I mean, there is a little bit to talk about there because he's like, I don't know. Maybe this isn't the episode to like open this discussion, maybe because it is like pretty fraught and like there's a lot. But like the way that quote unquote beta male characters traditionally are presented in movies i just find it very interesting because and this this movie seems conscious of it of like the nicholas i mean the nicholas braun casting tells you everything you need to know in a way but like you know he's presented as like you're supposed to feel a little bad for him he's harmless he

doesn't quite know what's going on like he's being left out of the loop he's being mistreated by his girlfriend which he is but then also views himself as this hero in this story that is not happening and puts his girlfriend who he claims to love in a very dangerous situation by like outing this and in a way that also puts zola in immediate danger where anytime stephanie or derek do something to one up each other it puts zola in danger also and no one ever addresses that zola is clearly aware of it but it's like they're just so like caught up in their own bullshit that i don't know that whole that character i just i don't know it's like the move it's one of the hmm the movie seems very aware of like this guy is like in some way you have to you have some empathy for him because he's clearly not in a

good mental state but in the other way he's putting people in danger right and left and is like shaming of the work that his girlfriend does it's not clear exactly to what extent he understands that she's part of this sex trafficking thing well later there's the scene where he said something and zolo was like do i do i look like i wanted this and then he turns to stephanie and is like you brought another girl right he knows so he does know he knows and i feel like he kind of plays it off by being like i'm the goofy boyfriend you should feel bad for me because my girlfriend doesn't love me which is like all seems to be true but you're also very much aware of what's going on and you're not doing anything that doesn't serve your own interests and so it's like right it's interesting because he's he's he is

like i think the most the character presented the most comedically in the movie and he's been i mean definitely if you're too online that character has been like memed and like jift to death on twitter and so i just kind of wonder i'm like i i think that it comes across clearly who he is in the has been memed and gifed to death on Twitter. And so I just kind of wonder. I think that it comes across clearly who he is in the movie, but I don't know how much the cultural takeaway from that character was like, this is not a great guy. He's presented in pop culture as very like,

oh, look at this kind of sad sack kind of guy. He doesn't know what's going on. He's left out of the loop and he's sad. And it's like, he does know what's going on and he's complicit in all of it. I think that's a great point. Yeah, especially like in just the light of the world we've been living in in the past several years. Like I didn't think of it that way,

but definitely like a character like that. I mean, I don't know, or just portraying it and just like giving them that just writing them off a little bit i think it also like leaves room for all of these dangerous type of characters in real life just like yeah you know it it reminds me again i feel like i've made this comparison that's like it's not quite what i'm trying to say but i don't know but like almost like the nerd character and like oh we're supposed to feel bad for them like when it's like well but think about what they're actually doing

and what knowledge they have and how they're weaponizing it against other people around them and like i think we've gotten there with the nerd character but maybe this character yeah i don't know i don't know it's tricky because again it's like that's not even a criticism of the movie because i think the movie is aware of that yeah um and tells us that so i just think it's an interesting conversation maybe we'll maybe i'm sure that this stock character will endure we'll come back we'll circle back to it yeah and then the last thing i wanted to there's so many little moments in this movie um but the a moment that really stuck with me as well as of just like how isolated zola is made to be in this movie and also just sounds like in the story itself is the moment where Zola is at the pool. She's in public at the pool

and X is pretty aggressively threatening her. Say like this, you know, you're going to do this, this and this. You're going to be complicit in this human trafficking operation or I'm going to hurt you basically. And there's like this little moment where a waiter asks her if she's okay

and then is kind of intimidated by X There's like this little moment where a waiter asks her if she's okay. Yeah. And then is kind of intimidated by X into like move along. There's nothing to see here. And like, again, I mean, again,

it's, there's a lot of ways to look at that scene, but I just thought that like, even like, I don't know if this was in the Twitter thread or not, but just even having that included in the movie, I feel like just makes her predicament so clear.'s like you can be in broad daylight and still and in public and and not be protected yeah yeah and yet it's kind of a funny movie it's wild and yet it's a romp um yeah yeah does anyone have any other thoughts about the movie i mean

probably but right i know i'm like i feel like in a year or something i'll have you know there will be more written about it and more perspectives because there's already a lot written about it but we have any we didn't even talk about like the the the height of the movie's action where it's like zola is like assaulted by like when she when after stephanie has been knocked out so you know very clearly physically assaulted zola is like i mean it's just it's a very very difficult scene to watch because her being calm through an assault there are like lives on the line as in the way that the scene is working like if she it is a really really hard scene to watch where it's like if she can't survive this abuse then everyone including her is going to get shot possibly yeah it's a it's a terrible

yeah that moment does not get mentioned in the twitter thread interesting okay i don't think i didn't anyone i can double check that i don't think it at least not in that much detail because in the twitter thread and again i didn't reread the Rolling Stone article. Because that whole damn website is paywalled. So I don't know the fact checking of it. But in the original Twitter thread, it's said that Z shoots that guy in the head. Like the rival, was it the rival hustler the rival hustler the rival hustler is like shot in the head by Z but I don't think that there is

that like moment of Zola being explicitly abused in the original story I think also that z shooting the rival hustler is one of the things that asia king admits to having embellished okay in the twitter thread so if i remember correctly the like according to the thread so i think the the movie embellishes on the thread and then the thread embellishes what actually happened um i do not believe this this assault even happens in the twitter thread although it could be something that like asia king just it did happen and then just left out because uh it's extremely it's twitter it's a very triggering thing you know it's a very traumatizing thing but maybe you know she told the screenwriters like this did happen i i'm only speculating here we we don't know um i kind of feel like like

jamie like to your point just even describing the scene whether or not you know it happened or not just like as a scene in the in the movie and just like watching her endure it and just like knowing how much is at stake. That kind of goes back to the questions of, you know, how this movie interrogates like race or intersectionality just as a black woman. Because even like her role as she like got in on all of this, she kind of ended up becoming Stephanie's protector. And like that's literally like that's her job. She's supposed to be there to make sure nothing happens to her. And that's when she has that moment where she says, well, that's literally like, that's her job. She's supposed to be there to make sure nothing happens to her. And that's when she has that moment where she says, well, who's looking out for me? Right. And like, I felt like that was a powerful moment. And I feel like,

or just the stakes of everything with her, and just like trusting her or like, when Coleman Domingo's ex, like, why do I not remember? I'm like, everyone's government names. When he takes her on the balcony and like, gives her the gun.'m like everyone's government names um when X takes her on the balcony and like gives her the gun and like that's the moment that he's like okay so this is this is now your burden you know that felt like something worth mentioning like when it comes to just just discussions on race and intersectionality and just what it's like to exist as a Black woman and just so many different spaces but here's an example of it and just it kind of you know it felt familiar right she she's expected to be this like white

woman's protector there's at least one scene where as like stephanie starts selling sex and zola is like basically being the hostess of this, like letting the people in. The first guy looks Zola up and down and says, I ordered a white woman or something like that. Just every step of the way on this trip, Zola is being devalued and put in dangerous and traumatizing situations because as a black woman her life

isn't seen as valuable by these people around her stephanie is weaponizing her white womanhood in like kind of like playing the hits um in terms of what that looks like where she's in a way that like as a viewer you find out 20 minutes later she's completely lying like she knows exactly what's going on and there is I mean that's not to dismiss the power dynamic between she and x which is never made quite explicitly clear but it is like she is in danger in that situation with him to an extent and we see that she doesn't have access to money and that she is completely dependent on him in order to be able to continue to survive and i don't mean to dismiss that power dynamic right but in the way that like she's acting like this

is the first time this has ever happened i have no idea what's going on and she starts crying to zola saying like you need to protect me like this is I mean like you're just saying Jamila with a different pair of characters like it is your burden to protect me even though you never asked to be here and like yeah watching Zola have to deal with that and like have that unnecessary pressure put on her and then to find out 20 minutes later that it was complete and total bullshit like she knew exactly what was going on it's it's it's it's tricky it's a lot it's tricky and it's a lot and that's the thesis of today's episode uh do they even is there is there anything else anyone else wants to touch on before we wrap up i don't think so okay, this movie passes the Bechdel test. Tell you what. It does.

It does. In scenes that are, again, very cringy because it's Stephanie doing a black scent and... Lying to Zola's face. And lying and manipulating Zola the whole time. But that's how the story went down in real life. So it is representative of real life conversations that happen sometimes. As far as our nipple scale goes, a scale of zero to five nipples based on how the movie fares, examining it through an intersectional feminist lens. This is hard.

It's another tricky one. I would say because of who told the story originally and the way they presented the story, the tone that Asia King used, the just unfolding of events, the movie is a seems to be a pretty faithful adaptation from the tweets, the people making the movie, particularly the writers and director, and the lens by which they are delivering this story. The fact that Asia king was involved in the process of that so it's like her story as told by her told on her terms that's what makes the movie effective i'll give the movie four nipples i think just kind of based on the uncertainties we've had throughout the episode just sort of the questions although maybe i don't know maybe that's too low maybe that's like

i'm judging it too harshly based on the things that we said about like how we there is like too much pressure placed on movies like this because they're having to do so much to like represent something that's been underrepresented. I'll stick with Four Nipples though. This is something that, you know, maybe looking back on the movie in a year or two, it'll be higher or lower. I'm not sure. But for now, it's Four Nipples. I will give one to Janixa Bravo. I will give one to Jeremy O'Harris I will give one to Taylor Page and I will give one to Coleman Domingo uh I'll go for as well I I think that um you know again I I hope that the conversation around this movie continues mainly just because like i more people should see this movie um i hope that it continues to like find its audience over time because i feel like the the pandemic really screwed this movie in a way that wasn't fair and i hope that people

continue to see it um yeah i mean i there's a lot of heavy stuff addressed in this movie. I think the team behind this movie is fucking incredible. And I just like love Janessa Bravo's work so much. And I'm so like, I can't wait to see future stuff she makes. I think really like the, the main thing that sticks with me here is I just, I don't know enough about human trafficking to be able to make any sort of definitive call on that front.

But I do wish that we had been given, because the movie has such a vested interest in telling the story of Zola, I mean, maybe they just don't include what ends up happening as it pertains to human trafficking, because that wasn't included in the Twitter thread. But I personally think it would have been helpful for the audience and wouldn't have hurt the tone of the movie in any way to include that information that's my opinion uh but i i mean this movie is i i really enjoyed it and it also like it's just so challenging in so many ways i feel like we all

have acknowledged that it's like i don't know i gotta keep thinking about it um because there's just so much going on um janik sabravo in an interview with i think it was slate said that ultimately this movie is a cautionary tale about making friends with white people actually and i'm going to leave it at that and with with that and giving asia king you know like the agency to like tell her own story being the core missions of this movie i feel like it's super super successful in accomplishing those things and then there's also all this other stuff but i'm gonna go four nipples i will be watching this movie again i think i think i'm gonna like wait a year and then watch it again and see if i've become a smarter person or not um but i'll give four nipples i'll give one to janick sabravo one to jeremy o'hara's one to uh joy mcmillan the editor, and one to Ari Wagner, the cinematographer.

I thought everyone did a great job. Jamila, what do you think? You literally said everything that I was going to say, Jamie. I agree. I will give this four nipples. And I did wait a year. A year? More than a year?

Two years. I saw this movie initially like almost two years ago, January 2020. And I just rewatched it again today. So, and I still don't feel smarter. So there's that. Tough two years to get smarter, I will say. You know, you know, but you're like, we're already on the same level. So it's like really, it's really sad for me.

But yeah, I give it four nipples for the same reason I feel like I mean the main reason that it worked for me I'll start with that is again as I mentioned just the fact that it gave Asia a Black woman the opportunity to to have control and agency over her story and to tell her story and also just the fact that she just, it started on Twitter. Like it literally started on Twitter. There are so many Black women or women of color or non-binary women, just, or non-binary women, non-binary people, or just people in general whose stories just aren't being told on a platform like a Sundance or the big screen in general. And the fact that her story was able to,

to go from Twitter to the big screen and that she was able to be involved with it throughout the process. And the fact that she seemed, I mean, she was at Sundance with all their interviews. She sat, she sat in with them on every, on every conversation. And the fact that she seemed so comfortable with it and just so on board with it and just so proud of it. Like, that's what kind of spoke to me. I'm like, well, this is her story and she seems proud of the finished product. And to me, that's like, just to see a Black woman have that type of control, who like is not in this industry. She didn't go

to film school. She didn't like learn how to, you know, write scripts on a professional level, but she was able to tell her story and share it in such a, on such a big platform. And I think that's, that's powerful to me, whether or not the story resonates with you, just the fact that it's told, I think it's just like meaningful. So there's that, but then again, you know, the shortcomings of it. And just like, I do feel like the main shortcoming for me is just like, there was just a missed moment with the ending. And I agree, just like if we were shown a little bit more of what actually happened, when it's all said and done, that definitely would have, I think that would have had a really big impact. And like you said, Jamie, I don't

think it would have taken away from the story at all um or the film sorry if that car was really loud um so yeah that's so yeah I give it four nipples I think it's I think it's a really good film I think it's really interesting I think it's also something that I don't think I've seen before like when I saw it I was like this feels different so you know at the end of the day that's an accomplishment in. Cause there's so many things that just feel so like we've seen them before, or even the use of social media and just like how it was shot. And just, I heard Janixa talk about how she like pictured like cellophane kind of like the way she wanted it to look like on top of, I don't know. I can't remember how she explained it, but like the shininess of certain moments of it especially like in the mirror sequence just like so many things like it was just shot in such an interesting way but again just the fact that there are some there

are black women at the top just controlling all of this and so I'm here for it but yeah so four nipples I will give one to Janessa Bravo I will give one to Taylor Page I will give one to Coleman Domingo and okay so like I want to give this one to Jeremy O'Harris but I also I just I think Riley Keough did a great job in the depiction of this character I mean her performance is I mean noteworthy yeah the performance is great like i hate the character deeply right like more than more than most but the performance is great so i you know i just want to give her a shout out but i i'm going to give the fourth one to jeremy o'hara it's just because co-writing it and just like it's just unique it's and then i really

i'm hoping that we get to see a lot more stories that make it all the way to the big screen. But they start off like just, you know, simple and small and just, you know, just, I don't know. Beautiful. Plus, Jeremy O. Harris is a close personal friend of yours now based on all the times you bumped into him. Yeah, based on all your hotel encounters. We're best friends. We're best friends. And he just does not know it yet.

He will. He will. I hope so. give it time uh i also i wanted to uh double gift all four of my nipples to the pea shot i forgot that that was what i was originally going to do give four nipples to the pea shot because it is now my favorite shot in all of uh movies that is a shot that will go down in history. Yeah. Yeah. I kind of want to go to film school just so I can talk to somebody about that. I truly I like I did. I really do think that there's there's a whole paper in there. That's God. I guess I love P driven storytelling. I'm learning P visibility. It's finally here. Your P says a lot about what's going on in your life and the way you pee.

Well, that tells just as much. In this essay, I will. Well, Jamila, thank you so much for joining us. It's been an absolute treat. Thank you so much for having me. This has been wonderful. I like having the opportunity again to rewatch this movie two years later and just like really think about all of the things. This has been great. Come back anytime to cover to cover anything. Whatever. Yeah. Where can people follow you online and check out your writing and all that good stuff. People can find me on Twitter or Instagram at Mila Nash.

And I write regularly for Teen Vogue. So if you just check out Teen Vogue's website, search my name, I'm there. Nice. But yeah. Beautiful. Amazing. And you can follow us on Twitter and Instagram at Bechtelcast. You can go to our Patreon, which is at patreon.com slash Bechtelcast, and get two bonus episodes every month,

plus access to the back catalog of bonus episodes. This month we're observing Jane Austebuary, because you all won't stop requesting Jane Austin adaptations and it took us five years but we're going to do it and we're going to read a book. I'm reading a book everybody. I said I'd never do it

but I'm reading Pride and Prejudice. Wow we're like regular 10th graders over here. So tune in to Jane Uary or Austin Augustust all your heart uh or the thing that you said jamie and uh yeah so that's it patreon.com slash bechtel cast and you can find our merch at tpublic.com slash the bechtel cast get it or don't get it, none of our business. And with that, let's get the hell out of Florida, gang. Let's leave.

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