The Ben and Ashley I Almost Famous Podcast - A Club You Don't Want To Be In with Joan Vassos, Kathy Swarts, and Michael Allio

Episode Date: July 2, 2026

Bachelor Nation favorites Joan Vassos, Kathy Swarts, and Michael Allio are all members of the club no one wants to be in - they’ve all lost a spouse.    The three discuss processing grief, balancing parenthood with loss, and finding love in chapter two.   Plus, we hear about Michael’s new children’s book, Where The Wild Heart Grows, and its powerful message!   Email us at: [e-mail] or call us at 844-4-I Do Pod (844-443-6763)Follow I Do, Part 2 on Instagram and TikTokSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Hey, everyone, it's the Jonas Brothers. If you haven't heard, our new podcast is called Hey Jonas. And this week, we're hanging out with someone we're really big fans of. Millie Bobby Brown. We talk about her new movie, Anola Holmes 3, family life, and all the amazing things she has going on right now. Plus, we find out what she really feels about the stranger things ending.

You have over 60 animals. I don't know where the number is 60. I've really got to figure that out. There have been plenty of sheep in my bed. It's a big bed. Literally sleeping in the bed. Listen to Hey Jonas on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. My husband is at a spa resort with his mistress right now, and I'm calling the hotel to confront them both.

Wait a minute, Dakota. She's calling the hotel while they're checked in together. Yeah, that's right, Sophia. And it gets worse. It's vacate to vacation week on the OK Storytime podcast, where she caught him buying gifts on Amazon and then taped the 10-page letter inside his luggage before he flew out. So she planted evidence before he even took off? And spoiler, Sophia, two years later, karma hits so hard, he's calling his ex-wife in tears, saying about his mistress. What a mistake that was. To find out what happened, listen to the OK Storytime podcast on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. I'm Jake Brennan, and on the Disgraceland podcast, I explore the wild lives of rock stars and unbelievable true crime stories from music history.

These are the stories you haven't heard. the kind you'll end up telling someone else. Like the time Paul McCartney spent in a notorious prison or the bizarre crime Lady Gaga is accused of or that time Blondie's Debbie Harry escaped Ted Bundy. Listen to Disgraceland on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Joy is essential and it's also elusive.

But now, there's a new and exciting way to start your journey toward a more joyful existence. Joy 101. It's a new podcast hosted by me, Hoda Kotby. If you're craving inspiration to maximize your joy, tune into these candid, uplifting, and moving on-air chats. Open your free I-Heart Radio app. Search Joy 101 and listen now.

Joy 101 with Hoda Kotby is presented by CVS. Hey, I do Part 2. It's your celebrity mentors, me, Joan Vassos, and Kathy Swartz. And today, we get to connect with someone from Bachelor Nation who is in the same club as us that no one wants to be a member of. Of course, we're talking about the club for people who have lost a spouse. Yeah, Joan and I, we've both lost spouses, but it feels a little different because our children were a little bit older. But, you know, it still is a club no one wants to belong to. and today we are going to chat with someone who is in that same group with us.

We all met Michael Allio on Katie Thurston's season of The Bachelorette and again on Bachelor in Paradise. He has a new children's book out that we also can't wait to talk with him about. But in the meantime, please welcome Michael to the pod. Hi, Michael. Hi, thanks for having me on, guys. You look great, and I'm so happy to be on here and be able to chat with you guys about all things and this dreadful club that we're all part of it. Yeah.

Okay. So since we are all members of this club, tell us about your late wife, Laura, and what she was like. Oh, I appreciate that question, too. I met Laura when I was 18. I was a freshman in college. She was a senior in high school on a college visit. And I saw her from across the quad walking around campus. And I told her, no joke.

I said, if you come here next fall, then I'll make it worth your while. I love that. And this is without Facebook. This is without, I didn't have her cell phone. I ended up seeing her in the cafeteria the following fall. and lived up to my promise. So we were together for 16 years. We had all life's milestones, got the job, you know, moved together, grew together, and had a kid, James. And when we welcomed him into the world, we had about seven months of bliss before we found breast cancer. So he actually

stopped taking milk from one side of Laura's breast. And that's how we found it. And so it went from, all of this bliss to kind of life just flipped upside down as it often does with any diagnosis that's out there. And it was a wild ride. She passed away in 2019 when James was two and since then, been really solo dadding it until recently with my gorgeous, gorgeous girlfriend, Jade, who's just been such a blessing in our life. But life is crazy. And as you both know, very, very well. You can have as many plans as you want. Life doesn't necessarily care. And sometimes we're left to pick up the pieces and find our way back. Yeah, that kind of leads me into the next question about being a father of a young child. I know my kids were grown. My last, my youngest,

my fourth was in college when John passed away. So I know that, you know, possibly my experience was a lot different than yours. I'd like to hear about, like, the way you processed your grief, if you have a young child, did you have time to process your grief? Or has that been like really delayed and coming in to focus now, you know, maybe a little later in life? I think that's a great question. And I think grief often gets this broad brush stroke. You know, we all lost somebody, but all of our grief is so incredibly different. And none is better, less painful than the other. They're all different.

And we can see benefits and we can learn lessons throughout the whole thing, but it doesn't take away the challenge and the pain of trying to find your identity and your footing after life just really goes unplanned. And, you know, with James and with my own dealing with grief, I was kind of thrown into it. I really, just like, as you guys know, being a caregiver, I mean, that teaches you first and foremost that you have to be the rock. You have to be able to serve.

Like you have, you can't put your fears on somebody else, even though they are so present. You have to get them to the next scan or the next appointment. You have to find that strength. And I felt like for me the same thing was true. grief. I really had to run into just being a single dad. I mean, our goal was to have a, have a child together, to raise James together. And when, after she passed, I was really nervous because I was like, do I have the tools to raise this kid on my own? Is grief going to define me

and also my son? And I always have this fear of, I think, I think every parent does, where the actions that you have as a parent, they make such an impact on a child that it's like, is this going to affect so many generations? And so it has to be handled with so much care, it's so much pressure. And so, you know, I always tried to walk that balance with my son on grief on allowing him to be a kid while still allowing that space for us to be able to talk. about his mom, even though he was so young when she passed. Joan, I don't know, Michael, if you're aware, my husband died by suicide also in 2019.

I'm so sorry to hear that, Kathy. Thank you. I appreciate that. But I wanted to just get back to the conversation about grief because you and Joan both lost your spouse's two illnesses where there were doctors' appointments. You had time to prepare if that's even a thing. Yeah. And so I've often, people ask me about my grief journey.

I don't know, as you said, Michael, grief is grief and we all experience it differently. And you have to walk through grief to get to the other side. You know, you can't run away from it. But for you and Joan, I'm very curious how grief, I still have moments when I have just, the grief washes over me. And I just wonder when your wife was sick and Joan, when John was sick, are you already experiencing the grief before you lose your spouse? Do you want to take that, Joan?

You want me to. I know you and I have talked about this, which is funny because we had moments where we thought maybe we were going to do maybe a little something together to talk about things just like this because people don't get it. You do, Kathy, I think a little bit because you've experienced like intense grief. but I'll tell you I was in denial to be perfectly honest, which was so naive of me, but I kept thinking John was such a healthy man and you probably thought the same thing about Laura. Like how could she not be here for the rest of our kids' lives? And so John went from

weighing like 200 pounds to 110 pounds and I still in my mind thought he was going to live. And it was so like I was in such denial that when he passed away, I think I was in chalk for like a year. I just was surviving. I just one foot in front of the other. How about you, Michael? I wonder how you did it. I know you couldn't just put one foot in front of the other. You had to raise a kid.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I, we rang the bell twice. You know, we went on vacations. I second your opinion, Joan, that as caregivers, we never give up hope. But there was a, there was a time when I mean, I knew enough.

about the cancer and everything where it had spread to a different part of the body. And I knew, and I can see it in the doctor's eyes, that it was uphill. And so I, even though my brain told me that this was inevitable, my heart wouldn't let me accept that. And we still maintained hope to the last day, kind of searching for a miracle. Yeah. And what's so interesting, and Joan, you and I've talked about this, I was in denial after my husband died. I kept thinking that I was having a nightmare and I was going to wake up and he was going to be there. And my children were obviously much older than your son, James, Michael, and yours were older too, Joan. But you still have those family issues and the grief that just. permeates, transcends everything, regardless of the age of your children. So it's just interesting.

If grief taught me anything, it's the duality of life. Yeah. That two things were true at the same time. And all things are true at the exact same time. I mean, I used to think that grief was about hurting less. And over time, I've learned that it is. really about holding loss and pain and beauty in the same hand. And I wrote about this once that grief is a gift. And grief is a gift because I loved everything that Lord gave me, the memories,

the James, I mean, 16 years, we built a life together in many ways. The things, the habits that I have were habits that we developed together. And it was one of those things where after she passed away, I was just really, really lost on who I was, what my identity was. Am I capable of this? All of the things that maybe I took for granted that she did. I just love that you talk about the habits that you formed

because you were together for so long. Kathy, you probably have the same thing that I have. I was together with John for 32 years, and I didn't know how not to be a couple. All of a sudden, I was floating out in this universe by myself, and I hadn't been that way for so long, and I didn't know how to do it. I still not sure I'm very good at it. I'm not really alone. I have chalk, obviously, but he's not the father of my kids, and we don't have, like, a lot of couple friends together because we don't live near each other. I have a couple of friends that I develop from.

My kids were really, really little, and we raised our children together. And then all of a sudden, I was like suddenly not part of this group because couples like to exist with other couples. Oh, yeah. And you don't exist with singles. And you're out. An IR Radio Experience. Weekend gold tickets to Ilson Inc. One, two, three.

In Montreal with Dom Dalla, Chris Lake and friends, Woolly, Deadmouse, above and beyond, subfocus, and more. With flights from Porter Airlines, three nights at residents in downtown Montreal. and $1,000 cash. Enter for your chance to win at iHeartRadio.ca. Ilsonique in Montreal, every day you enter is another chance to win. Hey, everyone, it's the Jonas Brothers.

If you haven't heard, our new podcast is called Hey Jonas. And this week, we're hanging out with someone we're really big fans of. Millie Bobby Brown. That's right. Eleven herself. We talk about her new movie,

Anola Holmes 3, family life, and all the amazing things she has going on right now. This blew my mind when I saw this. Millie Bobby Brown. You have over 60 animals. First of all, how do you even keep track of everybody? And second, do you have favorites? Who are they? And why? Yeah, I need to know about this. Okay. I don't know where the number's 60. I really got to figure that out. And I could actually

have over 60. I just need to really know that number. There have been plenty of sheep in my bed. It's a big bed. In the bed. Literally sleeping in the bed. Yeah. Plus, we find out what she really feels about Stranger Things ending. Five seasons, almost 10 years of your life. I could have never have guessed it. I started when I was 10 years old. Our conversation with Millie Bobby Brown is out now.

Go check it out. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. My husband is currently on a vacation with his mistress and I'm confronting them. Tell me, Sophia, how did she even catch them? One Amazon shopping receipt. He accidentally sent her a photo of the kid's Christmas gifts with a delivery to another woman at the bottom. He exposed himself.

That's a rookie move. Couples massages, monogrammed bath robes, and lingerie he then moored her for. So she spent four weeks gathering evidence and taped a 10-page letter inside his luggage before he flew out. In his luggage, she came to play. And the second he landed, he blocked her. So she called the hotel room directly and got the mistress on the phone. Ooh, she got the mistress live on the phone? That is a bold move.

Let's see if it pays off. Then it gets worse. He took the mistress on the Bahamas honeymoon. trip he had planned with his wife. And then the mistress tagged him on Facebook, outing the fair to her entire family. That's like a whole public confession. And spoiler, two years later, karma hits him so hard. He's calling his ex-wife in tears saying about the mistress. What a mistake that was. To find out what happened, listen to the OK Storytime podcast on the IHart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, I'm Hoda Kotby, host of the podcast, Joy 101 with Hoda Kotby. Okay, if you know me, you know this.

searching for inspiration, for support, and useful tools to help maximize joy. So this podcast lets us uncover all of that together. We're going to have these meaningful conversations with the world's most fascinating people, like when actress Olivia Munn shared how she overcame fierce health challenges that she never saw coming. I've gone through breast cancer and then helped my mother through breast cancer, and that was more difficult. There's a lot of people who understand postpartner depression. I was not. prepared for postpartum anxiety. Olympic champ Sean Johnson revealed why she had no choice but to be a gymnast. There was something about gymnastics that was intoxicating to me. It's given me a belief that we

all have one of those treasures inside of us. We just have to find it. Listen to Joy 101 with Hoda Cotby on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. My experience was, I also met my husband. I was, um, had just turned to 18 when I met him. I met him the first day of college and I looked across the room and I told me, Gabby, I love that. I said, I'm going to marry that guy. And I did. And we, uh, we were together almost married almost 46 years. So, so for me, for me, uh, this journey of rediscovering who I am. I had to learn from the get go because I was married when I was 20 years old. I mean, ridiculous. And it's, you know, regardless of what's right or what's wrong or anything, you end up growing into one. Yes. And I think that's actually a very healthy thing where it's,

two, you maintain your individuality, of course, throughout the course of a marriage, but you can't help but morph into each other. And I have, I've had so many conversations with widowers and widows about this. And, everybody's situation is so different. So some people would say, man, yours is the worst. Michael James was so young.

But here, I didn't have to have the same kind of conversations that you did, Kathy. Yeah. Like, or you did Joan because your kids were older. And very passed away. My biggest thing always was,

like, how can I make sure that my son's life isn't defined by this. How can I learn tools that I wasn't born with, but I need to adopt immediately so

that this doesn't create a psychopath that blames that blames tragedy for everything that happens in his life. He'll be 10 in September. So he was how old when Laura passed?

Two. Yeah. You know what? I think that there's like a big, it's a weird scale because you think, okay, James isn't missing his mother like the person that he probably does hardly remembers. Correct. But then you have the job of reminding him and keeping her memory alive because there is going to be a day maybe when he's 15 or 16 or 17 or 18 or some time in the near future that he's going to want to know about his mom. And it sounds like he's a really good job. We, we, it's, it's this balance between very much keeping her life and not making him feel guilty or pressure that he doesn't remember. Yeah.

I, I've seen, I've seen a lot of people make mistakes about kind of, they're, they're so anxious about making sure that they don't forget, don't forget, don't forget. But kids that young, they're not going to remember. None of us remember anything when we were two. And so one of the ways I kind of bring that up is he'll do something that reminds me of her. Yeah. You know, I'll let him know that he is very much a part of her. He'll laugh at the way he does. He's incredibly book smart, which she was and I wasn't.

And so I'll say, you know, that reminds me just of your mom. And then that facilitates a conversation, not, you know, do you remember? and all of this because, you know, I don't know, the kids shouldn't feel the guilt that he may, he or she may have forgotten. Yeah. And that grief is different. You know, the missing somebody intensely, that grief, like I wake up in the middle of the night still feeling that.

Oh, yeah. I feel that. You know, thank God he doesn't feel that. And that's what I worry about for my kids. They're older, but they miss. How old were your kids, John? So now, so they're now 36, 35, 32, and turning 30 on tomorrow. actually, the day after tomorrow.

So, you know, so John's been gone for six years for us. So, you know, Luke was just getting out of college. And, like, they have all these adulthood moments that they miss their father so intensely. So that's, like, a little bit of a different kind of grief. Like, your son is going to realize, I'm sure he already does, that all of his friends have a mom and he doesn't. Oh, absolutely. My kids all, like, see, all their friends have a dad. And, you know, they're, they need their mom.

mentoring and they don't have a dad to mentor them anymore. And I have two boys and two girls and the boys really feel it. You know, hats off to our club, right? Like I, I, you know, I'm, I have to apply, and I think I'm going to speak for you guys too, because I can feel it. We have to apply some sort of purpose to it. And we have to extract lessons from what life has given us or else it's all in vain. And it's not toxic positivity. It's nothing like that. But I have learned so much about how to live a more fulfilled life after brushing so close with death. Like I think if prior to death and it being a part of our life and being on the oncology floor and all of that for two years talking with people living it, breathing it.

I think if you would ask me, what do I want in my life in order to be happy? I would have had a hard time with that. But if you were to ask me, what don't I want to regret in my life? I can answer that now. Because when you talk to people at the end of their life, when you walk the floor, when you speak with people of age, they will tell you all the things that they regret. And it's the blueprint for how to live a happier life. And so, yes, I am burdened.

I carry grief. I carry that pain every single day. And the second I think I made sense of it, I wake up in the morning and it hits me like a brick. But that's the gift of grief. And it provides clarity for us. We don't create our own problems as much. anymore because we know what real problems are. And it allows us to just, I don't know, a structure of a life that we can be proud of. Sounds like that you channeled your grief into

writing this book. Yeah. And it's going to help other people. So you've found a purpose, at least, you know, in the time being, I would love to hear more about your book where the wild heart grows. What made you write a book just like this? Yeah, I think one of the misconceptions is that the book is about grief. It's actually about many, many, many things. It's about growing up. It's about growing old. It uses nature as a metaphor and a teacher to be able to allow us to accept the seasons of our own life. And there's seven interconnected stories. It's very old world. I actually have a copy right here. Every illustration was done oil on canvas by James's best friend. His name is Tommy. His dad's a professional oil painter. And so we did 35 illustrations,

the old school way, to try to slow. down time to try to teach kids without lecturing, but through storytelling, that the still moments in life, the tough seasons in life, the letting go allows for new growth, and that there's so much by just observing nature that we can learn about our own life and all that growth that happens and all that's uncomfortable. I have to say I read the advanced copy. The illustrations are incredible. I think you have a Caldecott winner on your hands here. Thank you.

But I cannot believe, and I want about 15 copies because we'll get back to the second, our sort of dealing with grandchildren on all this grief and loss that we're talking about. But in your book, you talk about courage, loss, kindness, resilience, wonder, the struggle to talk about healing with your son. And I love one of the lines you had the wild beauty of everyday moments. And that is exactly what that book to me represents slowing down and seeing the beauty in everyday moments. Thank you. I didn't really set out to write a book. These are seven stories that James hands selected.

I actually wrote 35 of them, all in nature. So he hands selected some of them. He's like, yeah, that's not making the cut. And I'm like, oh, everyone's a critic. You're a top critic right there. Yeah, it really is. But I really, really appreciate that. I some people ask me who's this book for and I always have a tough time putting it in parameters because

I have this idea and I'm just deep held belief that the basic things that we learned as kids we have forgotten as adults and when when you're talking with a child when you're talking with anybody if you begin to lecture to them they begin to put up their walls their ego starts coming up They start defending it. That's not me or they pull away. And for me, I noticed that with James early on. It was the whole, how is your day? It was good.

What did you do? Nothing. You're feeling. I'm fine. And I'm like, I've heard this story before because I did the same thing. And so at nighttime, I started just writing stories about these individual topics that all humans go through, whether or not you're growing up or growing old. and it is the courage to begin again.

There's a story about a spider whose web keep. I'm sitting here right there. I took a picture of that quote, honestly, because it resonated so much. I have it right here. I'd love to read it. So the audience knows what we're talking about because I think it talks about us.

It talks about your son. It talks about so many people, probably not just us. And it says maybe strength isn't in the web. Maybe it's in the weaving, in the courage to begin again. And everybody will have probably a challenge to begin something again, whether it's, you know, starting a life without a spouse, hopefully, you know, not many people have to experience it. But even in like losing a job or losing your home, there's, you know, we're all going to experience someplace where you have to find strength to begin again. I love that, Joan, and it's spot on because even in that story, someone asked, the spider is so upset that its web keeps falling down.

And then it's asked, you know, tell me about the first web you ever made. Yeah. And the spider is like, it's absolutely awful. It was threaded together. It didn't catch any food. It was an absolute mess. And then the spiders asked, you know, if that one lasts forever, you would have starved. Yeah.

Yeah. And that's really the simple kind of wisdom in this is what we want to hold on forever. Sometimes isn't meant to be. And we are forced to have the courage to begin again and start leaving. While we're sitting here giving out quotes, I think your book is as relevant and insightful for adults as it is for children. What matters is not clinging to what was, but trusting what will be. I read that and I thought, I have never met you before today, and I thought, thank you.

Just reading that quote gives me hope. It's what will be. You know, one foot in the past, never forgetting and moving forward and looking towards the future. So thank you for that quote as well. Thank you. There's tons littered throughout. I really appreciate you guys talking about how it's larger than grief because it's lessons we can all

pull from at any point. in our life, no matter what we're going through. Right. I want to ask you, though, how specifically do you think, because you wrote this book sort of to help you talk to James about these things, or that was one of the reasons. Yeah. How do you think this will help children to comprehend grief and loss?

Yeah. I mean, again, I think it's grief. It's loss. It's growing. It's, it's courage, it's friendship, it's kindness. it's all of those things when when kids are going through the forest of their own life and they feel overwhelmed and they feel lost to recognize that in that stillness that in that area where we feel like we're not developing that our roots are growing that that growth is happening even when we

can't feel it and i always have this idea of of, you know, hopefully Jade keeps me out of the nursing home when I'm, you know, 90 years old or whatever. But I walk through a nursing home, see my grandma, and I look in these rooms, and they are people with real stories, you know, people with lives well lived. And the one thing you notice is that they jump out of their seat as fast as they can. When they see a young child, and you start to look at them and their phone's not. ringing. And it breaks my heart. And I know for a fact, if I were to go talk to any of those people

that are sitting in their room, that they would transport to the hardest time in their life. The time in our life that we are so, like, excited to try to get out of. And it's like, this is life. The whole thing is life. And if you're waiting for, something down the road to fulfill you, you're going to miss it. Yeah. And so it's, it's this really, this call to be present for children, for adults, for anybody going through it. Because believe it or not, the worst time in your life, one day you're going to miss it. You're going to miss the lessons it taught you. I love that. I like living in the present is so hard. But I think we all learned a lesson because

our future was kind of taken away from us. And that was like the biggest thing for I felt there was this black hole ahead of me now and I didn't have a future. And to learn how to live in the present. So I don't miss that so much. It's been such a gift. And so when you talk about this grief journey being a gift, that's probably the biggest one that I took from this, like living in the moment a lot more. Yeah. And allowing yourself to mess up, allowing yourself to not have a timeline, to not compare yourselves,

to others in any form or fashion. And to give yourself permission to just be yourself, I fear for our kids living in the digital age with social media that what makes them special is muted, and it's going to get censored because they're so afraid of being criticized. And there's a story in this book about the Dancing Dandelion. and people can read all about it. But it's about celebrating who you are, regardless of who's watching,

because you have something to offer this world. Even though people may judge you, laugh at you, the worst thing any of us could ever do is to silence our gift just because we're trying to fit in. Radio Experience, weekend gold tickets to Ilsoni. One, two, three, three. In Montreal with Dom Dalla, Chris Lakin friends, Woolley, Deadmouse, above and beyond, subfocus, and more. With flights from Porter Airlines,

three nights at Residents in Downtown Montreal, and $1,000 cash. Enter for your chance to win at iHeartRadio.ca. Ilsonique in Montreal, every day you enter is another chance to win. Hey, everyone, it's the Jonas Brothers. If you haven't heard, our new podcast is called Hey Jonas. And this week, we're hanging out with someone. we're really big fans of.

Millie Bobby Brown. That's right. 11 herself. We talk about her new movie Anola Holmes 3, family life, and all the amazing things she has going on right now.

This blew my mind when I saw this, Millie Bobby Brown. You have over 60 animals. First of all, how do you even keep track of everybody? And second,

do you have favorites? Who are they? And why? Yeah, I need to know about this. Okay. I don't know where the number's 60

and I really got to figure that out and I could actually have over 60. I just need to really know that number. But there have been plenty of sheep in my bed. It's a big bed. In the bed.

Literally sleeping in the bed, yeah. Plus, we find out what she really feels about Stranger Things ending. Five seasons, almost 10 years of your life. I could have never have guessed it. I started when I was 10 years old. Our conversation with Millie Bobby Brown is out now. Go check it out. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.

My husband is currently on a vacation with his mistress, and I'm confronting them. Tell me, Sophia. How did she even catch them? One Amazon shopping receipt. He accidentally sent her a photo of the kids' Christmas gifts with a delivery to another woman at the bottom. He exposed himself? That's a rookie move.

Couples massages, monogrammed bath robes, and lingerie he then mowed her for. So she spent four weeks gathering evidence and taped a 10-page letter inside his luggage before he flew out. In his luggage, she came to play. And the second he landed, he blocked her. So she called the hotel room direct. and got the mistress on the phone. Ooh, she got the mistress live on the phone?

That is a bold move. Let's see if it pays off. Then it gets worse. He took the mistress on the Bahamas honeymoon trip he had planned with his wife. And then the mistress tagged him on Facebook, outing the fair to her entire family. That's like a whole public confession.

And spoiler, two years later, Karma hits him so hard he's calling his ex-wife, in tears, saying about the mistress, what a mistake that was. To find out what happened, listen to the OK Storytie. Time podcast on the IHart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, I'm Hoda Kotby, host of the podcast, Joy 101 with Hoda Kotby. Okay, if you know me, you know this.

I'm always searching for inspiration, for support, and useful tools to help maximize joy. So this podcast lets us uncover all of that together. We're going to have these meaningful conversations with the world's most fascinating people, like when actress Olivia Munn shared how she over. came fierce health challenges that she never saw coming. I've gone through breast cancer and then helped my mother through breast cancer, and that was more difficult. There's a lot of people who understand postpartum depression.

I was not prepared for postpartum anxiety. Olympic champ Sean Johnson revealed why she had no choice but to be a gymnast. There was something about gymnastics that was intoxicating to me. It's given me a belief that we all have one of those treasures inside of us. We just have to find it. Listen to Joy 101 with Hoda Kotby on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. We kind of touched on this a little bit about how our grief ebbs and flows, and we all feel that. Sometimes it hits us like a ton of bricks.

But now that you are kind of seven years out, I'm sure your grief is very different than it was when it first occurred. Yeah. What things are you processing now? And I'd love to hear these things from you because I feel like when you say them, it kind of solidifies them. like this ideas that are my head. You're so eloquent when you talk about it. I'd love to hear what you're processing seven years later. Gratitude?

I am seven years out. That was when you asked that question, Joan. I knew you asked it to Michael. I was thinking gratitude for every minute of my life, every sunrise. Continue on, Michael, but that was exactly my word. Please, please keep talking. I want to hear what you have to say. Well, no, it's just that when we talk about walking through grief and I think the biggest thing that my husband's death taught me was many of the things you've said, Michael, but enjoying every moment being, it is, you know, being kind, being present, all the things that you've been talking about, really taking time to look at nature, enjoy my children, enjoy my, the little things that were so.

busy and scheduled that when my husband died and it was so obviously abrupt, there were so many things that were left unsaid, so many things that were left undone. So seven years later, seven years later, I have grandchildren. I have three children and I really try to soak up every minute of my life, their life. And you know, we won't regret that. And I think the gratitude for me, too, to echo what you're saying is, is also just relief that I'm here. Because there was a time when I grief was so heavy.

I didn't know who I was going to become after this. I didn't know how it was going to change me. I didn't know how my worldview, if it was going to make me hard and, and hate the world for what it did and question God and do all of those things. And instead, it has allowed me to really appreciate the things that I overlooked with a whole different lens and welcome them to my life. I'm so happy to see James running the front door from the school bus completely bypass me and run into Jade's arms. Oh, I love that. So can we talk a little bit about Jane?

Oh, absolutely. So I know that she's moved in with you. I'm curious how you met how that whole evolution has taken place that she is now integrated into your life. Yeah. And as you say, you can still hold Laura and that memory. Two things can be true at once, loving more than one person at once. Oh, absolutely. And I think if any listeners are trying to find that balance, obviously take your time.

But I think a lot of people will tell you it exists. And just give it time when you're ready. Don't rush into anything. But after I got off The Bachelorette Katie or a Katie season, Jade saw me on TV. She reached out. And we never had like a romantic relationship. It was a friendship kind of thing, just admiration for me and what I've been through. And we found just through that a long mutual, like friendship, long distance.

And she was in Hollywood and West Hollywood doing her own thing. And there was just the longest time where it's like, yeah, could there be something here? But look, you're across the country. I'm in Akron, Ohio, and I'm not leaving. So over time, this was about about two years ago. We met up in L.A. when I was out there. And I saw her again. And it was almost like the same exact way I saw Laura across the quad.

It was, it was, and I was so, so happy that I felt that again. And if you would have asked me seven years ago, hell, four years ago, I would have said that feeling's gone. It's going to have to feel so different now. But that's the only feeling I know. And it's almost as though like in that moment, my heart chose her and we committed to each other and developed that relationship. And then, yeah, it took the plunge two years. She's been here for two years. And integrating a family is a challenge.

thing. I've gotten so many questions and critiques from people, why won't you marry this woman already? You know, and it's all these things. And the truth is, is, you know, I'm probably going to. I'm going to. Do you want more children? So we've talked about that. Originally, I wanted three. Now I'm 42, and I'm exhausted. Like, like, I mean, trust me, Michael, it gets worse. Oh, oh, oh, I know. I know. But the last decade has been a tough one on, on this guy.

Yeah. In every which way, just being mom, being dad, managing careers, doing all this, making sure you're present. It's exhausting. And he is, he's so enough. And so, like, right now, it's a season of first because I've never been able. to raise James alongside somebody. So I don't have the blueprint on how to do this. I'm learning something new.

Every day I'm humbled as hell by life. But it's great to have somebody who we can capture memories together with. And we can share all of those life moments with. And after he goes to bed, we can talk in bed about what we did right, what we did wrong. You know, all of those things that just, I don't know, just make it all worth it. I would love to have been a fly on the wall when you first introduce this concept to James about you dating someone. And I'm sure you would have never done it unless you had known this was like maybe your person. And so it probably didn't happen until you met Jade.

I would love to know what you said to James. How did you introduce this concept? Yeah, I mean, I've, it's always, I mean, I'm not going to, like, I'm not going to lie. It's always been a tricky thing because James and I have developed, I mean, we're one. He's known, you know, me and him in this house and that's it. Yeah. And so eventually it was like, we have to take a plunge and it's going to be uncomfortable. And what we're all going to find out is that it's not as hard as we think it is. And I think that that message is so true for starting again after loss about imagining, what's it going to be like

going on that first date? What's it going to be like driving to someone that's not my husband? What's it going to be like when those inside jokes that we shared and those memories that we always talked about at dinner are no longer remembered by the person I'm now dating? They smell different. They look different. They're all these things. And you just have to have to begin knowing that it's a process. And as long as you're patient and trying to be understanding, taking time, knowing that there's love, kind of bring it back to simplicity, that things will fall into place and people will adjust. I think avoiding the conversations is the worst thing. I think, I think kids can have.

handle a lot more than adults typically can. I think they're more resilient and more understanding and have less bias than adults have developed over the years. So that's been my experience, but if that comes across, like, I am an expert, I am far from that. It has been a journey, let me tell you. You've done it well. Oh, thank you.

Radio Experience, weekend gold tickets to Ilsoni. One, two, three. Go with Dom Dala, Chris Laken. friends, woolly, dead mouse, above and beyond, subfocus, and more. With flights from Porter Airlines, three nights at Residence in downtown Montreal, and $1,000 cash. Enter for your chance to win at iHeartRadio.ca. Ilsonique in Montreal, every day you enter is another chance to win.

Hey, everyone, it's the Jonas Brothers. If you haven't heard, our new podcast is called Hey Jonas. And this week, we're hanging out with someone we're really big fans of. Millie Bobby Brown. That's right. 11 herself. We talk about her new movie, Annola Holmes 3, family life, and all the amazing things she has going on right now. This blew my mind when I saw this, Millie Bobby Brown. You have over 60 animals. First of all, how do you even keep track of everybody? And second, do you have favorites? Who are they and why? Yeah, I need to know about this. Okay. I don't know where the number's 60. I really got to figure that out. And I could actually have over 60. I just need to really know that number.

But there have been plenty of sheep in my bed. And, yeah, I'm in the bed, literally sleeping in the bed, yeah. Plus, we find out what she really feels about Stranger Things ending. Five seasons, almost 10 years of your life. I could have never have guessed it. I started when I was 10 years old. Our conversation with Millie Bobby Brown is out now. Go check it out.

Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. My husband is currently on a vacation with his mistress, and I'm confronting them. Tell me, Sophia. How did she even catch them? One Amazon shopping receipt. He accidentally sent her a photo of the kid's Christmas gifts with a delivery to another woman at the bottom. He exposed himself?

That's a rookie move. Couples massages, monogrammed bath robes, and lingerie he then mowed her for. So she spent four weeks gathering evidence and taped a 10-page letter inside his luggage before he flew out. In his luggage, she came to play. And the second he landed, he blocked her. So she called the hotel room direct.

and got the mistress on the phone. Ooh, she got the mistress live on the phone? That is a bold move. Let's see if it pays off. Then it gets worse. He took the mistress on the Bahamas honeymoon trip he had planned with his wife. And then the mistress tagged him on Facebook, outing the fair to her entire family. That's like a whole public confession.

And spoiler, two years later, karma hits him so hard. He's calling his ex-wife in tears saying about the mistress. What a mistake that was. To find out what happened, listen to the OK story. podcast on the IHartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, I'm Hoda Kotby, host of the podcast, Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb. Okay, if you know me, you know this. I'm always searching for inspiration, for support, and useful tools to help maximize joy. So this podcast lets us uncover all of that together. We're going to have these meaningful conversations with the world's

most fascinating people, like when actress Olivia Munn shared how she overcame. came fierce health challenges that she never saw coming. I've gone through breast cancer and then helped my mother through breast cancer, and that was more difficult. There's a lot of people who understand postpartner depression. I was not prepared for postpartum anxiety. Olympic champ Sean Johnson revealed why she had no choice but to be a gymnast. There was something about gymnastics that was intoxicating to me.

It's given me a belief that we all have one of those treasures inside of us. We just have to find it. Listen to Joy 101 with Hoda Kotby on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So, Joan, it's interesting, Michael, because you're talking about introducing your son to another woman. Joan, you and I both have grandchildren. And in both of our cases, our husbands never got to meet or spend, time with their grandchildren. And Joan, I don't know, Michael, if you know, Joan just had two grandchildren born. I saw that, Joan. Congrats. Thank you. It's such a blessing. But you're right,

Kathy, you know, I think about when I asked you the question of like, what are you processing now seven years later? My thought was that life isn't fair. That was my thought. You guys had gratitude. I wish I had gratitude. I do. But really, my first. thing that came to my mind is life isn't there. And that's how these big moments. So there's little moments that I think, oh, like John would have loved that sunset. He loved sunsets. And I'll see a beautiful sunset and it makes me sad, even though I'm happy. I'm seeing this beautiful sunset. I feel sad that I don't have John, you know, that he doesn't get to share it. And it's even, you know, even more magnified with things like big, like big life events. So when my, John actually did see one of our

grandchildren get born and he got to walk his one one of our two daughters down the aisle so he did experience those big moments but you know life keeps moving on and that's what makes me the saddest I think I picked up a little bit when you're going Kathy which was experiencing first yeah and and having having say chalk and and you be able to experience all these first with with grandkids and I know for a fact, and I'll just, I'll just say this, is one of the hardest things in the world, which I never would have predicted, was sharing James with somebody else. And that's the weirdest thing, because the entire time, while I'm grieving, I am like, God, can I just find somebody to share him with? When it starts happening, it almost feels at first like a violation or bail or something like that. And then again, over time, it starts to feel less like that and more normal and all of that.

So I get that. And so for me, it's a flip side. I feel like I have to be grandmother and grandfather. I'm so sorry that, you know, my husband, I have one daughter. He didn't get to walk his daughter down the aisle for her wedding. these adorable granddaughters that I have. He saw one for a few months, but those things I feel compelled to be the grandmother, the grandfather,

to give my grandchildren the memories that you are trying to impart to your son. It's just sort of the next generation, if that makes sense. Yeah, and playing those dual roles is tricky. And, you know, there's a lot of responsibility and weight. that we put on ourselves to kind of live for those that aren't here. And really, all we have to do is just be, just be ourselves because that's, that's so enough. I mean, life, life is painful without a doubt. I mean, life is, is dark, life is all those things.

But if you are able to just understand that the dark seasons in your life are just seasons, and that if you can be resilient enough to just get through them, know that they'll pass, there's light at the end of that tunnel. It could be grandkids. It could be finding new love. It could, you know, just who knows? Like, let's stop trying to plan everything. Yeah.

As your story says, the acorns fall to the ground, but in the spring, new leaves come out. I just, I, they always do. There's, the whole idea, like, behind the book, too, was I was looking outside of my window in my bedroom, and I was looking outside. at this tree and this tree's been in my backyard forever and it was during the first year that Laura passed and I felt like I had one of those moments where I watched this tree through all four seasons and you know it's growing new leaves it's turning um you know amber and an orange

leaves are falling and all of that and I was just wondering does the does the tree mourn is the tree grieving you know does does the tree miss the squirrels that don't come around does the tree feel like it doesn't have value or purpose anymore because it doesn't have acorns or fruit for other animals or nourishment or shade? But it's like, no, like trees are wise. They understand that they have to let go in order to allow for new growth. And they, it's just this cycle. And if we take ourselves out of the moment, we've all been through these cycles before. They just look a little different. Like there's nothing scarier than being in your teenage years and everybody's saying, what are you going to do with your life? Who are you? What are you going to become? Where are you going to

live? How much money are you going to make? What is it? You're like, I don't even know who I am and I'm supposed to figure this out. It's frightening. There's nothing but questions ahead. Yeah. And it's like, we've gone through those seasons of death and rebirth multiple times throughout our life. And that's That's like all like this are these seasons of turning the page and allowing things to let go. I feel like that's the hardest thing for me is turning that page. I remember this year at the anniversary of John's death, he died on January 18th. And I went to the cemetery and I happened to be alone that day. My kids had gone the day before.

And I went by myself. And I thought for the first time, I felt like he wasn't part of our life. Yeah. That life had moved on enough. that like the light that we are creating now would have been foreign to him. You know, three of the four kids are married. We, at that point I had three grandchildren. Now I have five as of like two days ago.

And that like all of a sudden I was, I got really worried that I was going to, his memory was going to fade as a new memories backfilled. Yeah. And I think that's been the scariest thing for me and I'm like still really resistant of it. And that's why I think personally people hold on to the pain because the pain hurts, but it's still the connection to the love. And when that pain starts to go away, I should say the pain ends up defining the only thing that connects you and your loved one. And so it feels like it's getting more distance.

But in fact, you're still carrying it. It's just redefining itself. And it's becoming something else. and you're allowing yourself a better, happier life, even though I know personally, it doesn't always feel that way. Yeah. I think for me, my kids, again, seven years out, now we can laugh about some of the things that went on.

And we can bring back those memories. And the pain, as you said, Michael is still there, but it has receded some because there are other parts of joy, whether or not he can share in them. My kids and I can look at life that we have now and, again, be so grateful for what we have while still saying, you know, oh, what would your dad say about this? And it brings smiles to our faces now. The pain is still there, but, you know, it pain, the grief ebbs and flows. and I love the fact that, again, different generation,

but you have James to walk hand in hand with you through this grief and the love for Laura while still building this new life for you. And I have the same with my children. Yeah, there's, I feel like we're always in this mentality that there's limited space. And, and, and they're, like if, if I ended up having, having a second child, I would love that kid just as much as James. And like, it's expansive. And so it's like, let's try to avoid setting parameters because you don't know.

Like, we have unlimited capabilities and capacity to take on new love, just like Joan, your family's growing. And it's like you thought you were at your max of love until those. grandkids entered the world. Yeah. And it's like, let's quit digging our feet in the ground and pretending like we know these truths when every single time we're proven wrong. Let's just be water here.

It just flow with it, you know? Like is somebody, I always, so I have this thought in my mind and I don't know if you two have it also that John sends me signs sometimes when I need them. So it bothers a really hard day for us normally. well this year, and I'm going to cry talking about this, my oldest son, who misses his father so much, got to be a dad. And it was early. The baby came early. I felt like John sent us something to be happy about. I can't imagine how emotional that is for you guys and how happy that makes me feel because like that's that's the life, right? It takes away and it allows

for new life to come into your world. And it's such a, it's such a beautiful thing. I'm so happy for it. You guys, Joe, that's amazing. I get the same thing. My daughter the other day said some things were going on in her life and she told me after the fact, she said,

Dad, I need a sign. I need a sign. And she said with that, a butterfly just came. A yellow butterfly, which was sort of one of our things, came and just sat on her shirt. And yeah, I mean, I love that. Do you ever get any signs from

Laura? Oh, geez. I mean, all the time. I mean, James is a walking sign. Yeah. I mean, for one, I'm telling nature versus nurture. Nature. It's nature. Like he laughs like her. His anxiety is like her. His like OCD organizational type A behavior is identical to her. It's unbelievable. And I have this like, I have this faith, right, that I know for certain that we're all going to see them again. So from now until then, it's just time. It's just time. And you know what we've done a good job of? We've done a good job of creating the most ridiculous stories to be able to share with them.

Guys, we did not like sit around. We went on ABC's The Bachelor, The Bachelorette. The most wild thing that was never in our plans at all. Let's not forget paradise, Michael. You and I were on paradise. Let's not forget paradise. You did it in bathing suits. So I got to hand it to you guys.

I got tons of stuff that I can embarrass James with for the rest of my life on there. Oh, yeah. And that, you know, I'm proud of us for doing that, for still having that, like, zest for life and desire to not sit, still. And if people are sitting still after loss, I'm not judging that. Take your time. I did it too. Everybody's done it. But I'm proud that the courage that it took to just get out there and try something just completely not planned for it. John totally gave me my courage to do that. Like I were thinking like am I like not respecting his memory by going on? Oh yeah. The judgment's everywhere. Yeah. And I thought that I'm going to get that. And then I said that to a

friend of mine, I go, I'm not really, they had offered it to me. I said, God, I'm not sure if I'm going to go and do it. I, you know, are people going to think I don't, like, I don't still love him, like that I could, that I could move on and, um, am I not respecting that memory by doing something like so big and out there? And I'm kind of a shy person. And my friend said, oh, my God, you're being ridiculous. John would have loved this. He was the most outgoing gregarious person in the world. Yeah. And I'm like, oh, my God, he would love, he's right. He would love this. So I was like, literally that moment, I made the decision. I'm like, He loved this. I'm not not respecting him.

He's going to have a lot of questions one day. Yeah, so will my husband because, you know, obviously this is nothing any of us would have done had we had we had our person and we weren't experienced in this grief and having to build a new life. But for me, it was very life-referming. The whole experience of bachelor's life-referming. And frankly, all three of us are people that are building, lives through the grief. We are finding ways with our families to love life and love each other

and love others and who could ask for more, right? That's it, exactly. And with that, if someone is listening right now and they have a friend or family member who has lost a spouse, we hope that you, this has helped you. This podcast has helped you. And you can also get, let's talk to everybody where you can get Michael's book, where the Wildheart grows on the white. Wildheartgrows.com. Is that right, Michael? Yeah, yeah. We decided to sell online the wildheartgrows.com. You can order it there. Shipments are going out first week in July. I am overwhelmed by how much people are resonating with the book. It feels so good. It's so beautiful. I'm sad now that I'm not creating it

anymore and now it's out into the world. Volume two. I hear you got a third like about 16 other stories waiting in the background. Well you know there's a lot of lessons to be learned and I I appreciate you guys having having us on. I could do this all day. Yeah. I think we could too. Yeah. You are an amazing amazing man and your stories are incredible both the ones in the book and your life story that you were sharing with us today. It's a comedy isn't it? You've made us laugh. Thank you. Oh, you too. So are you like us and have lost a spouse, finding it hard to navigate through life and dating and need some help? Send us an email or leave us a voicemail.

All the info is in the show notes. Follow us on socials too, please. I do part two. An iHeartRadio podcast where falling in love is the main objective. Hey, everyone, it's the Jonas Brothers. If you haven't heard, our new podcast is called Hey Jonas. And this week, we're hanging out with someone we're really big fans of. Millie Bobby Brown.

We talk about her new movie, Anola Holmes 3, family life, and all the amazing things she has going on right now. Plus, we find out what she really feels about the stranger things ending. You have over 60 animals. I don't know where the number is 60. I've really got to figure that out. There have been plenty of sheep in my bed. It's a big bed. Literally sleeping in the bed.

Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. My husband is at a spa resort with his mistress right now, and I'm calling the hotel to confront them both. Wait a minute, Dakota. She's calling the hotel while they're checked in together. Yeah, that's right, Sophia. And it gets worse. It's Vacate to Vacation Week on the Okay Storytime podcast, where she caught him buying gifts on Amazon and then taped the 10-page letter inside his luggage before he flew out. So she planted evidence before he even took off? And spoiler, Sophia, two years later, karma hits so hard, he's calling his ex-wife. in tears saying about his mistress.

What a mistake that was. To find out what happened, listen to the OK Storytime podcast on the IHart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. I'm Jake Brennan, and on the Disgraceland podcast, I explore the wild lives of rock stars and unbelievable true crime stories from music history. These are the stories you haven't heard, the kind you'll end up telling someone else. Like the time Paul McCartney spent in a notorious prison, or the bizarre crime Lady Gaga is accused of.

Where that time, Blondie's Debbie Harry escaped Ted Bunny. Listen to Discraceland on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Joy is essential and it's also elusive. But now, there's a new and exciting way to start your journey toward a more joyful existence. Joy 101. It's a new podcast hosted by me, Hoda Kotby. If you're craving inspiration to maximize your joy, tune into these candid, uplifting, and moving on-air chats.

Open your free IHeart radio app. Search Joy 101 and listen now. Joy 101 with Hoda Kotby is presented by CVS. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.