The Ben and Ashley I Almost Famous Podcast - A Time to Tell All

Episode Date: March 2, 2021

We get into everything from the Women Tell All, including theories of who will become the next Bachelorette. Then, the last few weeks in Bachelor Nation have been full of shock, growth, apologies and surprise. Ben and Ashley discuss the latest news surrounding some polarizing figures and we consult a therapist about how we should be meeting this moment.  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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I deserve it you know lock him up listen to no such thing on the I heart radio app Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcast no such thing this is the Ben and Ashley I almost famous podcast with Iheart radio we're back with another almost famous podcast Ashley how you doing I am fine

how are you doing I say I'm fine because like Bachelor Nation dude has been heavy there's been like so much going on the past month yeah you know my uh my one buddy from the show uh said it best because i was looking for the words to say um because you know a lot of this is like friends of ours people that we know it's also the world that we live in and so like we're very much directly like associated with it yeah like it's our day to day lives it's not like we just come on here and talk about it on the podcast like we talk about it off the mic and you know me and jared always around our apartment it's like our life yeah it is and it's our friend group

and so and i mean i think you could even say that with the fans like the the fans reaction to everything going on right now you can tell people are invested and they should be right i mean it's not uh they love the show they followed the show a lot of them have grown up with the show and So all of us that are within this Bachelor Nation family are processing stuff. So the word that my friend used is it's disorienting, not meaning that it's not me. It's just there's a lot and it's hard to process quickly. I think we're seeing that. It's hard to kind of grasp where it's going.

It's hard to understand everybody's reactions to things. like, you know, I mean, we could say, but like the fact that Rachel Lindsay is being bullied is hard to process. Like, why is the question there? Like, what, what, what's the hope in that? And then also, what's the future of this show? It's obviously up in question right now at all levels. And then also, what does this mean for us personally? Like, what are the moments that we're learning from? What are the teachable moments? What are the, maybe the moments that people need to be still held accountable for? Like, there's just a lot going on. It's disorienting.

It's hard to process. I'm sure a lot of people listening can feel the same way. So we're going to talk about that. We're going to break down the headlines. We're going to talk about everything going on in Bachelor Nation, the best that we know how and the best that we can. We're also going to talk about this week's latest episode, which was the tell all and talk about our opinions of that.

But before we do, I just got back from Honduras last night, Ashley, and I want to tell you a story. Now, this story could be for some a little bit. disturbing. And so I'm going to say now, if you're not wanting to hear it, you can skip through it. It's going to be about the cleanup from the hurricane. So it's nothing, you know, but it's important to note. So I go for it. Yeah. So I just got back last night from Honduras. Don't worry. I took a COVID test before I went and a COVID test while I was down there so I could come back safely. We went down with the effort to kind of analyze what the impact of the two hurricanes that

hit Honduras were. I talked about that last week. Incredible work that the people in Honduras are doing right now. I'm not going to give the praise to the government, because I don't think the government has done a lot, but the people of Honduras. The citizens of Honduras have really stepped up and joined together and united to do the effort to clean this whole thing up.

Well, in our communities, there are small businesses that have been created alongside of the people in the communities. One of those small businesses is raising chickens. It's a huge deal for us. it employs a bunch of people. These businesses are owned by the people in the communities now. Well, this is how incredible the Honduran people are

and how much they believe in the work that they're doing. So I was down there and I was talking to one of my friends who lives there named Amirata. Marita has kind of become, if you, in the Humanian Hope family, like famous in a sense. She's just an incredible human. She leads the projects, the small businesses. And she was telling me that right before the hurricane hit,

They had raised 1,200 chickens that were in a chicken coop. 1,200 chickens. Yeah, and they had gotten to full size, and they were getting ready to be brought to the buyer of these chickens. And the floods started to come in, and so the road was actually closed. So they couldn't get the chickens out. And then the floods hit. No, no. They drowned. They drowned, which is super sad and really sad for the women.

So they drowned, but then they sat for two months. And so these women have invested the last, like, three weeks of their life into cleaning that up you can imagine i don't need to go into visceral detail of what that means but they did this because they believe in their small businesses they believe in each other but also you got to think about the trauma that just happens to the people that are working on those who have you know built a life around these chicken cubes who've built a life around these chickens who loves these chickens and then to go in and have to pick up and start over again and and to have it done in that way that's just one example of the destruction has happened like their homes are gone uh

Their furniture is gone. There's a pastor down there whose house literally is ripped into and not more than a year and a half ago I was sitting there at his house having dinner and he sat like made this dinner for for my mom and I outside and he was chopping up coconuts and it's like one of the coolest experience I've ever had and this time like his house is gone and so now that he's living him and his kids are living in a house that was like kind of just built that's probably like 10 by 10 maybe no yeah um and it's it's crazy because his son is the very first kid to go to college from this community and so his son's in college and doing his studies from

this house and he's studying to be an architect and this is like this is like wild stuff and and i say all of this to give us perspective in this moment especially on like uh the need that's out there but also just the injustice that people are facing the hurt that people are facing and to say for a second, maybe if you get some time to take a second, take a deep breath and recognize what maybe your role is in helping those who need it the most. So I just got back. There's a lot to process we don't need to do on this podcast. But finally, I want to share a story from last week to move on to a whole different topic. After this podcast, I got off the podcast Ashley and I texted the group. My house, I don't know if anybody out there listening to this has ever had this.

My house was infested with flies. I had thousands of flies in my house. here in Denver did you find the root cause yeah they laid eggs in a in a cactus that I have in the house and it they birthed so right after the podcast I got up and there's there's like flies everywhere so yes switching gears very quickly I just want to give a quick update on that the flies are now gone I don't know how they got there I don't know how to stop this from happening I don't even know how I got rid of them that's the thing it's like I don't know how I got rid of them they just like no longer exists well there's a lot on the there was a there was I swept it up there's a lot on the floor around the cactus they're like little baby flies um so if anybody out there is listening

has any idea of why this happened to me in this house and like how i can stop this from having the just let me know like email us message me on instagram tweet us just like thousands of flies which is like not a fun thing but ben you really had like an opportunity to teach us how to kill flies and you just didn't figure it out well i did this like vinegar lemon vinegar soap Okay. Yes, yes. That definitely works because when we had fruit flies in our kitchen, there's like these little apples you get on Amazon and you fill it up with like water, lemon and vinegar and then they fly in there and die. And it really does clean up the situation within like two days. Really? So that worked for you. Yeah. I guess. Yeah. They never were

inside the bowl though. So hey, Ashley, that's my little soapbox. Let's get started. okay guys it's women tell all um yeah this is the first time that we yeah this is like the most boring women tell all of all time just say it bluntly why is that there was something very strange of this episode there was so much regurgitation of things that happened throughout the season it was really more of a recap that it was a tell all do you think it's appropriate for the time though Like, do this, yes, yes, that's okay. Yes. There's a reason that they did this or so I suspect.

And that is because they got so much flack this season for all the girl on girl drama, so much caddiness, so much bullying. I think people didn't want to see more fighting amongst this group. And I think that would the women tell all was designed to be a little bit calmer with less, confrontation than usual and I think that was honestly probably a very good decision we didn't need any more of it

we already think we saw too much fighting it's all we complained about we complained about not being able to see these girls in their connection with Matt because there was so much drama so I feel like if we did see fighting we'd probably be complaining that there was too much

and now we're a little bit complainy about the fact that there wasn't enough to keep our interest but hey i guess i'd rather that i i do think it's that you're right i mean yeah at this point with everything going on uh and kind of we talked about it here most weeks and our listeners wrote in there was too much drama it's too much bowling it was hard to watch it felt it felt um like too heavy every week in the sense of like why why is why is this the way that humans treat each other. And so in a lot of ways,

I'm glad that we didn't have to watch that during women to all, because that's typically the place where we see the most, like, arguing. Like, that's where it all comes to a surface is on women to all when people are like, yeah, I didn't like you either. And they all yell at each other. It just wasn't, it wasn't needed here.

I was surprised with how little we saw Victoria. Yeah, me too. So much so that I had to rewind to see if, like, I miss something. I was like, okay, so I know she talks to, she talks to Matt at the end, and she actually seems like very emotional and, um, sincere. I really think she did. And then the only other time we really see her is when she totally gaslights Ryan. She is like, so I have gotten so much hate and death rats, but like, I've been like able to take it. Like, are you just a really emotional

person like and then she's like um it's very very hurtful things that they've been saying and she's like yeah but are you like very emotional because like I've been able to handle it but it doesn't seem like you're doing a very good job it was so bad but that was the only like she only really had conflict with Ryan and it was like and I'm not going to say that that was minimal because she's definitely like kind of trying to put her down but like in the grand scheme of all the thing she did this season for there just to be that little moment seemed like not a lot it that was a weird that's a weird moment though and it you know i think i do get the sense that she like has this has affected her and that she is doing some self like reflection and inspection yeah i do yeah

but like you know we can't you know she's not going to come out here and like have it all together uh yeah and that was like a moment where it's like there's victoria like that that that there they're still little bit there that maybe she'll watch back and she'll like hey that was mean too i should not have said like called right now for not being emotional like that's not a helpful question nor to put you on a like in a corner they'd have to respond yeah and she actually like apologizes to katy too you know she says like sorry for the name calling katy accepts her apology that's a that's the good part about this women tell all it seems like pretty much all the women are they're apologizing and then they are accepting these apologies.

It's kind of like when we see Brittany and Anna, because, of course, we know that Anna called her an escort, high-class escort. And Anna just, she just really seems sincere in apologizing to her. Of course, Brittany calls her out for having apologized right there on TV instead of, like, talking to her off camera, which, you know, is a great point. but Brittany does end up accepting her apology and Anna just feels like she's just so embarrassed by her behavior.

You know what? I mean, if we can say one thing about this season, I do think that the contestants have shown through a lot of the things that are happening that they want to come together and that they're trying to be better. I think when you're on a season that is pretty much defined by the bowling and the criticism and the name calls, you have to take a step back and say like what was my role in that and uh is there is there is there anything coming to the surface that i can improve on and i will say i watch this and i was like i think they're trying to get better um yeah is there anybody from this before we get into kind of the extra scenes that were shown uh the parts of the dates uh that that we hadn't watched on tv that were shown during this episode is there anybody that after watching this segment that

they like stood out to you um to say oh yeah this is a paradise person like i can see this kind of being their launching pad in the paradise i think anna okay i think the people who are guaranteed to be there are anna chelsea probably brittany um katie you know if those rumors of her being bachelorette aren't true i mean we know victoria is a shoe in you think so i'd argue she's not. You think that Victoria's not a shoe in? I don't know if that's the way the show goes. I think they're going to be very careful about. You think that they may not bring the bullier in? Yeah. I do. I do. I do. They typically have. And typically, you know, you see the villain. The villain become way more likable and relatable in paradise. Yeah. So it just

kind of matters, I guess, where Victoria's at and what she's, you know, what kind of work she's done and where she's sitting in her life at that point. Yeah. So, maybe. I mean, after this episode, maybe, I think, do you think it was a step forward, I would say. Yeah, me too. She, like, she put herself together. It was a big jump. Uh, Kit will definitely be in paradise. Piper will be in paradise. And I think Abigail is going to be the bachelorette. They definitely gave her the, the bachelorette, I don't want to say edit, but like, they, they hyped her up the moment during this tell all. Yeah, I'd agree. I mean, and I, don't think that's a shock like i mean i think since episode one we were like this girl has so many

great qualities her and mad didn't work out we never really knew why that was always kind of a mystery on like what happened there what wasn't what didn't it called to in like i mean i know it's always funny because of my like single buddies during a season they always text me hook me up with introduce me to yeah and like abigail's definitely the consensus like pick like you know i've gotten a lot of like pipers uh as well um brey i think during her one-on-one i kind of got some text but like abigail has kind of stayed consistent throughout the season when it comes to hey can you introduce me to abigail i like hearing that guys are into her because like that means that guys are into like really good-hearted sweet girls she's a sweet girl she is um and she's shown it

consistently so i'm not going to be shocked if it's abigail and uh and i would be excited about that. Now, Ashley, there were some, like, you know, for as many things that happened this season, I mean, I remember a couple episodes we were like, hey, they said there was going to be a group date and nothing was shown. What happened to the date? Well, we're getting a little bit more of that during this episode where they're showing some more behind the scenes of some of these dates. Some of the more, like, I mean, I told you on the date that I hosted, it was an all-day thing. And I think the date ended up being 10 minutes. Now, granted, it was a mess. Like, I failed completely at helping navigate an obstacle course.

Like there was no organization to it. There was all these stations that weren't shown because they had to eat pancakes. And it was like three huge pancakes that they had to eat at one time. And it was like, I mean, I don't know about you. There's no shot anybody can eat three pancakes without really like any liquid to like wash it down.

There was no liquid? There was like water, I think. But like it was just, it was like a cluster. That scene made me want to pose mate's eye hop. bad really yeah um then there was it was weird that they didn't that they showed jojo and tasha's date but they never acknowledged that they were there and they hosted a date when harrison says uh we're going to show you a date from this season that didn't make air because like we you know we had to cut it out or whatever i thought it was going to be theirs like those girls went to nemocholen

and they quarantined for a week and then they just didn't get their date shown Why do you think that is? I think, well, I mean, I texted Joja. I was like, oh my God, I can't believe your date got cut. And she said that it just didn't fit with like the narrative of the episode. It's so wild. That's just so weird that like this whole date happened. I mean, I was there during that day.

It looked fun too. They were like, what, eating chicken wings with Matt? Yeah, like that seems like a great date. Well, there's just a lot going on this season that I don't fully understand. And we've said it over and over again. We don't need to be a broken record. But it is also sad because, like, you have Matt James, who will go down as one of the best bachelors.

I hope he does. I think he will, if not the best. But, like, his season. Ben, that's sweet to give him your, you know, like the title that you usually hold in the public. I mean, it has to be given up at some point. I love Matt. I love him so much.

hope his, wow, it's like as if we're talking about a president or something, but I hope that he doesn't, his, his amazing legacy of being such a wonderful person and Bachelor isn't super tied to his season. Yeah. I don't think it will. I think he's off to do incredible things post his Bachelor time. And then I think also, if you look at Matt James, even in the midst of a season that was oddly controversial in the sense of contentious with the bowling and the name calling

all the stuff that happened then I mean like with outside of the show with Chris and with Rachel Matt still has like stayed Matt like and he's a good dude and I think people will remember that I don't think the season if I'm honest

will go down as one of the best seasons ever I don't think that's how people but I think Matt will go down as a very beloved lovable bachelor I hope so 100%. There's no question in my mind about that. I just really hope people don't tie his seat like the season

and the drama that's happened off the actual show to his to him. Yeah. I don't think so. And again I think after this Matt is going to do incredible things. And I think we're going to see Matt even more when the show ends for who he is and what he stands for. I think this is just the beginning for Matt. And I think

his time is not 15 minutes like most of us. I think he's going to go on to do a long, steady career, helping others, being himself, I don't know, hosting, whatever it is he wants to do. I think he's going to do a great job at it. Okay. So let's talk about the girls that really had like standout moments with Matt during the tell-all. There's Katie, and she said something very relatable. She's like, I'm 30 now. I constantly questioning, like, is it me? Why am I still single?

She said that while she was shocked when she was set home on the show, she says that watching back, she can see why she may not have stood a chance compared to the other women after seeing the relationships develop on screen. And it's like true. You really don't know what's going on. with the lead with other girls until you kind of go home and watch it yeah and i mean we've always said that and it's just not it's not a shock anymore but when you're in the environment like we watch it kind of like as the perspective of god like you can see it all these girls don't see

it all like what's going on in another room or it's going on with matt or whatever like you're isolated in your own little world you only really know what you and matt have and you don't know a lot of what anybody else has. I even remember during Caitlin's season like Sean was like so far beyond any of us and like we all knew it but yet we didn't know it. Like we didn't, it wasn't enough for us to believe it. We expected it.

And that's, I mean, but if you watch it back, you're like, oh, she was crazy about him the whole time. Yeah. So it's just it's that, it's just that, you know, blindedness to it. Yeah. Abigail, she is watching clips back, you know, with Harrison and the, you know, the front two seats and she said she got emotional you know watching it back she says it wasn't fun

to to watch she said she felt like matt gave her so much reassurance and she was on her way to falling in love with matt um then she has like then they show these cute little scenes of them together where um there was this one time matt told her that his first kiss he bit the girl's lip in seventh grade so bad it was gushing blood uh she also says that it was really nice to somebody who represented the hearing community and the deaf community. She said that she wasn't born profoundly. She was, oh, she says that she was born profoundly death. So if she did take her cochlear implant out, she wouldn't be able to hear anything. But she also said that she's not part of the deaf community with a capital D, she said, because she doesn't use sign language. But she's really

happy about the incredible response she's gotten. And I really just felt like that was one of the moments that made me think she's on her way to becoming Bachelorette. She's just so lovable and she does represent diversity in a different way having a disability. Yeah. And her,

I mean, she's just like an incredible human. She's somebody that you'd want to sit down with and learn from for so many different reasons. That's what I mean, I hope we see more of her. I mean,

no matter how that is, I just hope we see more of Abigail. She was an incredibly, bright light in the season um never got involved in the drama never like added to the bowling in the mess and she's still even like during this episode you're just like yeah you're i don't know it's weird to say like you're too good for this show like or you're too good for this season maybe is like you were just you're a fantastic contestant and then there was serena p's time with matt and the big question going into this was does she regret leaving the bottom line is no she said it was

difficult. She still cares about math so much. The last thing she wanted to do was hurt him, but she really felt like she was doing a disservice for him if she was staying. So kind of more of what we saw last week. And then Matt finally hits the stage and he's got that beard. He got like some oil in that beard. Did you see it was like shiny? It was like glistening. It's a big beard too. That's an impressive beard. He says of course that he was really nervous. He said that he was surprised by all the drama but he tried to be empathetic toward it because there are so many factors to take into account he also acknowledges the fact that like especially with victoria he's like i've never been in your situation like i've never been on the other side of the

rose so i don't really know all the emotions that you guys are going through which is like very interesting to hear you know um and then he said that when all this new information is being brought to him, like whether it's, you know, through press or whether it's through him watching the show, he tries not to beat himself up for not knowing. Actually, I'm going to say this. I remember the tell-off for Caitlin's season. And it was like magical. Like, you show up, you see all of your friends again. There's so much energy and hype around it. You walk into this room. And it's like the first time that you have, like, been, had made a public live appearance since the show. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

This didn't feel that way. It was so nerve-wracking. Yeah, it was like, oh, my God, it was so nerve-wracking. But you, there was, you were just as excited and energized seeing your friends as you were for, like, having to sit up there and respond to, like, drama in real time with a live audience, too, with us. But in this case, they didn't have an audience, which definitely probably makes the girls a little more calm and less antagonizing. because they're not responding to the response of the audience. Like when you get a clap or when you get a boo, like you either totally retreat or you want to keep going.

Yeah. It's a, and this just didn't have that. Like it didn't have that energy behind it. There was just maybe these girls weren't as tight as other seasons and maybe the storylines weren't as compelling. But it just, it missed it a little bit or quite a bit. But yeah, the big takeaway, Matt can grow a great beard. The guy has a terrific, terrific, even beard on him.

I have, like, I think Jared and I have the same issue. We have, like, the one beard on one side and the other side doesn't really grow it. So when we try to grow our facial hair out, it just looks awful. And I still grow it out. Same. But you guys still look better with a little scruff. Yeah, yeah. You do.

Matt looks good with a lot of scruff. And I don't have that. Yeah, he's lucky. Well, Ashley, to close all this, what are you most looking forward to for the next, in the, I guess, the final weeks of this show. I think I'm still most looking forward to what I was saying last week. Like, what is he crying about? What is he breaking down about?

It's also, I'm also very interested to see you sit down with his dad because he's not close to his dad, but his dad shows up. Yeah. There is some, there is some really compelling storylines coming up. We'll continue to watch. We will continue to break it down. And we will continue to be. fans of Matt James.

We'll root for him the whole way. Hey, actually, let's take a break, and we'll come back with the Almost Famous podcast. The U.S. Open is here, and on my podcast, good game with Sarah Spain, I'm breaking down the players from rising stars to legends chasing history, the predictions, well, we see a first-time winner, and the pressure. Billy Jean King says pressure is a privilege, you know. Plus, the stories and events off the court, and of course, the honey deuses. the signature cocktail of the U.S. Open.

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Join us as we talk to the leading expert on overconfidence. Those who lack expertise lack the expertise they need to recognize that they lack expertise. And then as we try the whole thing out for real. Wait, what? Oh, that's the run right. I'm looking at this thing. Listen to no such thing on the Iheart radio app, Apple

podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. As promised, we have Jordan Davis on the podcast. Jordan Davis, if you haven't heard from, well, you should. He has a self-titled EP Jordan Davis

is now streaming on all platforms you should watch the Almost Maybe's music video because you'll see Hannah Brown in it and we're going to talk to him about that today but Jordan Davis is an incredible singer-songwriter and Jordan, thank you for joining us.

Thank you all for having me all. I've been looking forward to this. Wow. The reason that we have you here is because you got to witness Hannah Brown and her boyfriend in real life, in live action. Is that where they met? Well, I don't think they met on set.

Oh, okay. But I think they had already met before that. But like in casting for your music video? No, I don't think it was in casting either. So wait, they just cast it a couple? No. So here's the funny thing about this is Hannah's boyfriend was never supposed to be in it. But one of the extras, the guy that was supposed to play, Hannah's boyfriend, got sick.

So Hannah asked him to fill in. So it was kind of a last-minute thing that he was in. What a great thing for you. I mean, like, come on. I know, right? I know. I didn't even, like, it was, you know, because I remember seeing a clip of it because I was watching, like, some of her stuff. when they were shooting it just over Zoom

because we had to shoot it during COVID which was kind of weird but yeah I remember seeing it being like God it looks a lot like oh that is Hannah's boyfriend so probably pretty uncomfortable too

for him and that like you know they hadn't been dating long and then all of a sudden you get thrown in a music video and you have to propose to your new girlfriend

and get shut down on camera So, guys, just a little clarification in the music video, Hannah kind of goes through like different stages of love, in which case one of them was getting proposed to you and denied. When was this music video shot? So they shot some of her parts in middle of December. Oh, so they've been together since then.

Yeah. And then we shot the part with me and Hannah early January. from there and there in there what a great idea uh why why was hannah brown chosen for this so i've i've just been a fan of hana for a long time i think she's a great person and i love i think you know i love how she has her you know her faith on her sleeve i think that's great uh and i met her at the c m awards i guess two years ago maybe um and she was on uh dance with stars so in there and i went up and told her i said hey my mom's a huge fan i'm a huge fan we're pulling for you on dance with the stars and she didn't believe me because lauren was on it too

and she's like no you're not lauren you're cheering for laura laena laura laura and i was like well i mean i'm pulling for both you all but like i'll be cool of either one you know one i'll win you know but uh told her i was a fan she told me she was a fan and we just kind of kept in contact you know on instagram through that uh and this is and i'm not making this at us, I promise you. We had a meeting on a Monday, probably early October, right whenever we kind of started throwing out ideas for the Almost Maybe's video. And I was like, you know who I'm going to reach out to and see if she would want to do it

is Hannah. And my team loved it. They were like, I think that's a great idea. You know, I think she would be great. The song is perfect for, you know, Hannah. got a very public dating life, obviously. And so I was like, I'm going to reach out to her. And the next day, I think she had said in Instagram Live

that she would love to be in a music video. And so I just start getting tons of messages from Hannah's fans being like, hey, you should put Hannah in your music video. And it was the weirdest thing? It's like, wait, was I like Facebook living whenever I was we were talking about this? and uh and that's what happened i ended up shooting her message uh on instagram um and she agreed to it so but yeah i just thought you know with with the way the song is the lyrics of it it just fit hannah perfectly sure does sure does um have how's the response been since you this is

like the first time people can kind of like watch hannah interact with her boyfriend yeah it's been great uh you know that like you said that was like a really unexpected you know positive uh on my end but like man the video turned out great she crushed it uh and it's it's obviously you know gained me a lot of new fans uh and uh it's been it's been really fun to really fun to continue to see the support for the video roll in it's pretty awesome well i mean Jordan i love that you have new fans you you need it every country star does but you've been successful for a while you mean you're a nominee in 2020 uh for the acm uh best new male artist of the year you also uh released your debut album home state and speaking of fans i mean am i wrong to say that it had over one billion

streams that album did yeah it did yeah which is crazy you need more fans man you need more fans man you need Yeah, no, I mean, that, and it's wild, you know, I've never, I was, it's obviously a record that I'm very proud of, but, you know, to continue to see that support for that album come in, it's just, it's just crazy. It's one of those things, you know, it's still, one of the only plaques I have hanging up is the one billion streams plaque. And every time I see it, it's just crazy to think that. that that record just meant so much that many people. It's just pretty, pretty humble. That is super impressive. We have to ask you about The Bachelor. Are you watching Matt's season? I'm not.

And not because of any of that I just haven't really been able to catch up with it. But so one of my buddies, Tyler Granger Smith's brother, he was on, I'm trying to think what was it the Bachelorette that like had that left he was on Clare's Clares Clare's Claims uh so yeah I was catching up with uh I was catching up or watching for for Tyler on that one but uh obviously didn't work out for him he's doing fine he's not too upset but uh but yeah I haven't

I haven't watched much of much of that season there is a big crossover in country music and the bachelor and bachelorette like there is a ton of it right I mean there's there's podcasts now that are like both country and bachelor and bachelor's why is that like why is there so much uh crossover in the demographic and likeability between both i don't know i wonder if it's just like you know the the lyric content of country music kind of fits perfectly for what the bachelor and bachelorette do i mean you know it's it's all about finding love or you know the one the one that got away or something that, you know, and I think that that's probably got a big reason to why the audiences are so similar

when it comes to fans of the bathroom, Bachelorette, and fans of country music. And I feel like every year, they have some, you know, I try, like my buddy Adam Hambrit played on a season. I know, Chase has played on a season before, so I don't know, I think it just, they just kind of go hand in hand. all right my last question for you is if you have another music video coming up and don't flatter bet and i who from bachelor nation would you like to cast next let's just say it can't be us so it doesn't make it awkward for you okay i don't probably i would probably say dale okay why i know it's really weird that guy kind of fascinated me like i thought he was a a I know he's ex-football player, which would be kind of cool to get some football stories in.

Yeah, I don't know. I just, I would like to see if he's kind of real. There's something about that guy that's like, it's kind of fascinating to me, but it's like, kind of like, I don't know if like, we're, I don't know. I would really just do it for a few questions. But do, were you really, were you really into Claire as much as you, like? Yeah. Because, I mean, it seemed very real. very believable but obviously it didn't work out right although I don't know if they're back on

I know I saw that is that is that real though guys are they back together yeah it's too much to say it's not so here's the thing Jordan there's another way to make headlines as you get them back on your music video on their first public appearance and it blows up again there you go I know you better release a new single now I know I need to start I need to start working on like what what can I do to day on Claire in a video. Hey, I don't think it's going to be hard, man. I don't think it's with one billion downloads or streams, I don't think it's going to be hard.

Hey, Jordan Davis, thanks for coming on. Again, your album is Jordan Davis, is what it's called. And also, you got to go check out the, you can YouTube it, Google it, whatever, the almost maybe. Yeah, Hannah Brown and her boyfriend are seen in it. Jordan Davis, I am a fan of you. I have a couple buddies in country music. and a big country music fan myself.

I appreciate you because I'm a big red dirt country fan, old school country, Texas country, and you walk a really good, like, balance within that world and within a world that, you know, can be heard on the radio. And I just, I enjoy that. I think it's a really cool gift. I hope you take that as a compliment because it really is. Absolutely, man.

That means a lot. I really appreciate that. Thank you. Thank you very much for saying that. Yeah. Hey, come back sometime, especially if you can get them on your, on your next video you're the man

Jordan Davis everybody make sure you go check them out we'll put a good word in for you bye awesome thank you all so much the U.S. Open is here and on my podcast Good Game with Sarah Spain

I'm breaking down the players from rising stars to legends chasing history the predictions will we see a first time winner and the pressure Billy Jean King says pressure is a privilege you know

plus the story events off the court and, of course, the honey deuses, the signature cocktail of the U.S. Open. The U.S. Open has gotten to be a very fancy, wonderfully experiential sporting event. I mean, listen, the whole aim is to be accessible and inclusive for all tennis fans, whether you play tennis or not. Tennis is full of compelling stories of late. Have you heard about Icon Venus Williams' recent wildcard bids or the young Canadian Victoria Mboko making a name for herself?

How about Naomi Osaka getting back to her? to form. To hear this and more, listen to Good Game with Sarah Spain, an Iheart women's sports production in partnership with deep blue sports and entertainment on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHart Women's Sports. Culture eats strategy for breakfast. I would love for you to share your breakdown on pivoting. We feel sometimes like we're leaving a part of us behind when we enter a new space, but we're just building. On a recent episode, An episode of Culture Raises Us, I was joined by Volusia Butterfield, media founder, political strategist, and tech powerhouse for a powerful conversation on storytelling, impact, and the intersections of culture and leadership.

I am a free black woman who worked really hard to be able to say that. I'd love for you to break down. Why was so important for you to do C. You can't win as something you didn't create. From the Obama White House to Google to the Grammys, Valicia's journey is a master class in shifting culture and using your voice to far change. A very fake, capital-driven environment and society will have a lot of people tell half-truths. I'm telling you, I'm on the energy committee. Like, if the energy is not right, we're not doing it, whatever that it is. Listen to Culture raises us on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Kurt Brown-Oller. And I am Scottie Landis,

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Like, why our last names would make the worst hyphen ever? My last name is Cummings. I have sympathy for nobody. Yeah, mine's brown-oller, but with an H. So it looks like brown-holler. Okay, that's, okay, yours might be worse. We can never get married. Yeah.

Listen to this episode with Whitney Cummings and check out new episodes of bananas every Tuesday on the exactly right network. Listen to bananas on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Imagine that you're on an airplane and all of a sudden you hear this. Attention passengers. The pilot is having an emergency and we need someone, anyone, to land this plane. Think you could do it? It turns out that nearly 50% of men think that they could land the plane with the help of air traffic control. And they're saying like, okay, pull this.

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Join us as we talk to the leading expert on overconfidence. Those who lack expertise, lack the expertise they need to recognize. so they lack expertise. And then, as we try the whole thing out for real. Wait, what? Oh, that's the run right. I'm looking at this thing. Listen to no such thing on the IHeart Radio app,

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Tune in on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Before we get the Bachelor headlines, we have to talk about our awesome sponsor. We're going to be wearing masks for a while. It's important to have the right mask. Protect yourself and others. The N95 respirators can provide a big upgrade to your current mask. There are fakes and there are counterfeit versions of N95. So you want to make sure that you have the approved version.

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your friends, and family, or your business. SecureComponents.com. All right, Ashley, we're going to go into Bachelor headlines. There's a lot of them. We'll walk through this stuff. But kind of a big overarching headline because there's a lot of sub-tops off of it. Is Emmanuel Acho has been chosen as the replacement for Chris Harrison

on after the final rows. There was rumors that, after the final rose was even going to happen. But it's going to happen. Emmanuel Acho is the host. Ashley, just a quick background before we start talking about all of this. Emmanuel Acho is a former NFL player. He is going to step in here and he's used to hosting.

He's the host of the YouTube series, Uncomfortable Conversations with a Black Man. That's been a huge show. If you haven't seen it, I'd recommend going or watching it. It's a great show. He was also just to let you know, Rachel Lindsay's pick to be the host. I don't know if she had like a say in that. I don't know the behind the scenes, but that was her pick. She publicly said, hey, I think you'd be the best. He, in his uncomfortable conversations with the black man, he has interviews, conversations

with Matthew McConaughey and with Chelsea Handler. He should totally check those out. He has talked to Oprah. Like, he's awesome. You just like can scroll on his Instagram for a little while and you'll just be able to like kind of feel his heart and soul. I think he's like a terrific pick for this. And if you guys want a little background on him, he was born in 1990. Wow, he's younger than us, Ben. I didn't know that. That feels weird. Yeah, doesn't that feel weird? He was drafted in the NFL in 2012. He was part of the Cleveland Browns, the Eagles, up the giants. And then he rose prominence doing a bestselling book, right? a best-selling book in 2020 called Uncomfortable Conversations to the Black Man.

And it's really been a launching pad for his YouTube series. He is somebody who you've actually spoken to recently, right? Can you let us in on your combos? Yeah, definitely. Well, it's super interesting because when my book came out, it's with Thomas Nelson publishers. And Sam Acho, his brother, released a book like maybe a month before mine. And so he and I, like, got connected through. We did Hope Still Wins together at the Instagram show I did.

And then I did his podcast and we've chatted and talked and texted ever since. And we became good friends. And so, like, I just knew Sam for a long time. He then introduced me to a manual and I talked to him. And I'm sure he's excited. He's ready. I can't think of a better person for this moment. Now, I don't know what the plan is moving forward, like into next season.

I haven't heard. I haven't researched that at all. But I know for this moment. and for after the final rows on this season. Emmanuel is a great dude with a huge heart, a ton of knowledge, a ton of wisdom. Sam, especially, his brother, has taught me a ton. In fact, when stuff starts swirling around, Sam is, well, has been the first person I've called. Like, when conversations are brought up and I'm like, Sam, help me process this, help me understand what's being said here.

How have I hurt, you and others? and then, like, what can we do about this together? And Sam is always the one that, like, talks with me. I mean, the other day, we talked for, like, an hour and a half. And it was just like, yeah, it's just incredible. Great family. And I do know that Emmanuel is really going to be excited for this moment. Also, he knows this is a big moment.

I will say that. He knows this is a very important moment. And I think he's ready. I mean, I know he's ready for it. It's the first. after the final rose in a long, long time. That's going to be pre-taped. Okay.

It's going to be taped this week. I believe it's Thursday or Friday of this week. So, yeah, I don't know. It's not live. So that'll be interesting, especially for something that, like, I'm sure the conversation is going to have to be, like, so deep. And they'll probably end up talking about all this for more than two hours. And they'll probably highlight the most important parts.

What do you think about it being pre-taped? I don't have a problem with it. I mean, live is, live is hard. Okay, my honest perspective is live is really hard. And I don't know if Emmanuel's ever done a live show. I don't think he, I don't think he's talented enough to. But like to do it your first time in this kind of environment with these conversations going on, I think would be really difficult. And I think probably even from like Emmanuel's perspective, it's like let's tape it maybe.

I'm just, I'm putting words in his mouth. let's tape it and then let's make sure that we show the parts that are important and needed because live you know if if you run out of time and there needs to be commercial break then you break and it's in the middle of conversation and then you feel like you can't get to what you need to like I have no problem with it for this I think we need to see the parts that matter and so this is great now Emmanuel is super interesting because he a little small fact he went to he and Sam went to church with Rachel Lindsay when they were kids in Texas oh so they We've known each other for a while.

Yeah, that church is a powerhouse of talent coming out of it. His brother is also a former NFL player. Yeah, his brother was playing up until last year and even considered this year. So, like, they're, you know, they're still young. Like, an incredible football. 1990. Incredible football players. There's also a story, like, about a manual, a girl on, like, Twitter, de-end him

and said, you know, asked him if he would take her to prom. And he said, if you get 10,000 retweets, I'll take you to prom. And he did because she got it. Yeah, he's just, you know, he, in 2016, actually, though, a few years ago now, he did leave the NFL to pursue broadcasting, and he's crushed it. I mean, everything he's done, he's been successful at, just, but at the same time, one of the coolest parts about the Acho family is their heart for those around him. Like, when you, I'm telling you, when Sam Acho, like, when I call him up and he spends an hour and a half talking to me, praying with me, like, educating me like just sitting with me as a friend like that's an incredible incredible human I know his brother has those same characteristics and same qualities um so again I can't think of a better person for this moment than Emmanuelacho I think it was a great choice I mean it's awesome that you have a personal connection with them and all I can say is like from the research

that I've done since Saturday on him he just like comes across is just like a sweet soul filled hearts of gold type of human being yeah and And I also, you know, I'm interested to hear about this, kind of where the conversation goes. If Chris's name is brought up, that's something that's going to be intrigued to me, like how they speak about Chris and kind of what that entails. There's going to be a lot to this show that's going to be watched. And I think Emmanuel is going to be very well prepared to enter into those conversations. And I honestly, I think, I think he tweeted something like this.

But like, can we see? say the world's going to be watching at least bachelor nation's going to be watching there's just a lot here to consume and to process together i think uh it's going to be a big episode and it's an important episode and this after the final rose it's going to be part of a three-hour finale on march 15th i believe it'll be the last hour i may be the last two hours of that episode and um the one thing that i have to say about it being pre-taped is that it'll be really lame if what goes down in it is leaked beforehand because that is the advantage of having a live after the final rose is that it can't be spoiled yeah that's true i mean what would be leaked like

what kind of stuff are we thinking of his i guess his winner and if they are still together it's whether they're still together i think is is a big question okay so you're talking okay that makes sense yeah i mean typically that is live so you can't be leaked right yeah yeah and like and then you like there may be rumors as to who wins going into the after the final rows, but how many times, especially as of late, have we gotten to after the final rows? And then, like, they reveal that, like, things aren't going so well. Yeah, that's true. Huh? I didn't even think about that. It's going to be taped pretty soon, right? It's going to be taped like a week in advance at least. Yeah. Thursday, Friday. Okay. Well, I'm not going to be looking at any spoiler websites.

I don't know about you. Doesn't, yeah, I'd rather, I'd rather watch this with complete intrigue with an open mind and heart ability to learn and to see what's going on in the life of Matt James and you know whatever he ends up whoever he ends up with it at the end if he ends up with anybody so this almost famous podcast will not be spoiling the the live show for you so you can listen listen well hey we we just got a really fun headline in about Emmanuel Ocho another fun fact about him he actually has turned down the bachelorette being on the bachelorette twice isn't that so i guess they've already been in contact with him so that was you know one of the reasons that he was um you know probably thought for this role it says that he says he doesn't think he could do it that's a quote he

actually told mike johnson this and brian on their talking it out podcast back in january he said that he was asked to go on The Bachelorette twice in 2017, and then most recently, after his series and book, Uncomfortable Conversations with a Black Man came out. He said, I couldn't be The Bachelor because I feel like people would judge me. He said, you were just kissing her and now you're kissing her. Why are you so grimy? I thought you were about uncomfortable conversations, not uncomfortable makeouts. I ain't got no time for that. I'm like, look. Let me just have my conversations. I don't need no dream suites, no hometown visits.

That's amazing. Yeah, he's great. I mean, the world's going to love him. Well, Ashley, more headlines this week. We're going to talk about all the things going on in Bachelor Nation. And obviously, a lot of these right now are heavy, but they're topics that we need to talk about. One is Rachel Lindsay deletes her Instagram after harassment from Bachelor Nation amid ongoing conversation about, you know, her interview with Chris Harrison.

Now, I will say this. The next headline reads from us weekly Bachelor Nation rallies around Rachel Lindsay after she deactivated her Instagram. Ashley, this is obviously something that is unfortunate that had to happen. Horrible, horrible. It was so sad. Just the people who are sending her these messages, I just don't know who you are or like how you possibly feel any sort of.

sort of compulsion to say horrible, like racist comments toward this woman who is really just doing a great job discussing race in this franchise. It's really unfortunate because as voices speak out on things that need to be talked about, a lot of people are going to have different things to say, right? but let's this is just a good lesson for life um demolition is easy like demo and tearing things down is easy it's quick it's loud people want to get involved in it because it you know sledgehammers against walls and but the reconstruction is hard it's tedious it's slow it's not sexy it's not easy to do it's hard work and so if we just want to keep going around as fans of the show and tearing

down the Rachel Lindsay's of this world, then are we going to be there to help it rebuild to reconstruct her and to encourage her? And it doesn't feel like we are. It feels like people have enjoyed tearing all of this down and everybody is getting torn down. But are we going to be there to rebuild her up? And I hope we are. I hope once she takes a break from her Instagram or social media. She can take a breather, refocus, refuel and that she feels encouragement as she enters back into this world because we need her. I like what Nick said on his Instagram a couple days ago. He said, if you want to support Chris while he's down,

you should be able to without showing hate to anyone else. Because I realize that this is obvious to most people reading this, but if you are one of the people who sent hurtful or racist comments to Rachel, please take a serious look inside what's your heart. Your priorities are seriously out of whack. But I do think that it's important to say that if you want to support Chris, do it. But that doesn't mean that you have to bring Rachel down.

It's just not mutually exclusive. It's not. That's the weird part here. It's like, can you not do both, right? Like, I've been able to talk on the phone to Rachel Lindsay and Chris Harrison. Both are people that are friends of mine.

Rachel, I don't know as well, but I've been able to talk. And like, why can't you do both? I think, I don't want to speak for them. I would imagine that neither of them want to be bullied.

I would imagine that talking to them both and hearing them and understanding and sitting beside them is something they probably would both support. It's not mutually exclusive. And I don't know why it's like, hey, I'm going to choose my side and just destroy the other side. As hard as I can, I'm going to go out. I'm like, it's just weird that like that's where people are sitting today. It's weird that that's where the mind goes.

It's weird that people can sit behind their computers and do that and feel okay about it. Everything's about the team you're on and divisiveness. It's wild. Well, moving on from Rachel Lindsay and talking about Rachel Kirkconnell, she had racist racism controversy in her new video and it's she says I'm done hiding this according to the Hollywood reporter now I'm going to say this and tied into this headline as well her mom actually speaks up in us weekly and says that her daughter feels hopeless amid racial controversy so so Rachel Cucanel comes out with a statement and now we know that behind the scenes

and that her that Rachel's hurting that she feels hopeless uh Ashley what's going on here what are we seeing what did her statement say? well her her statement said a lot she posted a long i think it was like seven minute instagram video uh she she posted it on thursday she said in it that she was wrong and her ignorance was racist she said that over the past few weeks since she put her initial written statement out she's gotten a lot of messages she said she's gotten a lot of people asking her well what have you done to change since then and she said that she's had a lot of people

message her saying that they aren't understanding why people are so upset. She said that a lot of people have been asking her for resources, which she thinks it's great, but she also said that there are people messaging her saying, you've done nothing wrong, don't listen to people. She says that she is tired of getting all of that. So the big step we have to take here is white people are stepping up and taking accountability because things will never change if we don't all work together and working towards this racial progress and the unity that we want. She also says that she has been hesitant to post links and books

and any resources because she doesn't want people to think that it's just performative and not something that she truly stands by. She says, I hear you. There are things out there that completely validate your opinions and your anger towards me. I've come to realize that sitting aside and hiding in the corner to avoid being called performative doesn't help anyone or anything. So the entire movement and where we are in this country is just so much bigger than this.

And I want, in need, to use my privilege and my platform that I so do not deserve just to shine a light on these issues and try to do what I can to take a step in the right direction. I think the biggest, the statement that she made in this that people really appreciated is that the people who are defending her saying that there's nothing to be angry about or to be offended by, she said, please stop saying that. That's not our place to tell people what they can and can't be offended about. That's wrong and that's part of the problem. So please stop saying that I did not do anything wrong.

That's not true. If you really want to support me, then encourage me to do. do better and encourage those around you to do better and accept the change and allow others to learn and grow because we need to work together on this if anything is going to change so yeah she basically you know it's a big it's a big call out to her defenders please stop telling me that what I've done is okay yeah and in within that she's not saying it doesn't sound like like hey bully me like destroy you know she's saying just stop defending me like this this wasn't okay uh i need to be held accountable but nobody within any of this conversation

rachel lindsay never said this about chris harrison this is a good important note here nobody has ever said uh yeah now go in like bully the other side like now go and destroy the other side it's like no hey we can be held accountable uh we don't have to support the things that have been done or the things that have been said but we can give the space to now learning growing and moving forward but, like, nobody's been calling, at least from what I understand, to, like, bully and destroy, I mean, I guess for lack of better time, the other side. Well, I guess we'd hope that people wouldn't call for bullying as being part of the solution. Yeah, and part of the solution. So, well, ABC adds a disclaimer.

This is another headline to Celebrity Wheel of Fortune. Chris Harrison was on the show. It was filmed a few months ago. And so we see Chris Harrison announced, Pat St. Jack introduces him, and there's a disclaimer that runs across. Yeah. So when he's introducing him, he said this episode was previously recorded in December 2020. It says that the disclaimer comes two weeks after Harrison was announced to be stepping aside for an unspecified amount of time from The Bachelor.

But that's basically just like this is what happened. You know, they just said, like, just letting you know that like, yes, we, we've had him step aside from after the final rose. but this was taped before any of this controversy. Well, obviously a big headline that we're going to talk about that has came up recently. Taylor Nolan had some tweets that were brought to the public's eye. They were hurtful. And we're going to bring on Dr. Goldscher to walk through this with us. So let's get her on the line.

And we're going to break down what's going on with Taylor Nolan and her apology. The tweets that came out from Taylor Nolan's past were so disturbing that we wanted to have on our friend, Dr. Hillary Golcher, who has joined this podcast a number of times before to talk about heavy subjects such as this. She's a licensed clinical psychologist with a private practice in Beverly Hills, and she specializes in relationships, depression, anxiety, trauma, grief, and eating disorders. honestly it feels just too painful to read these tweets if you guys do want to see exactly what they say or what her apologies say she had a lot of posts yesterday you can go and find it online you won't have a problem finding it so i guess our first question for you is just like how do we digest this how do we navigate this especially since taylor is somebody who over the past couple weeks when race has been such a prominent topic in bachelor nation she's been

one out there on the front lines. Yeah. There are a lot of moving parts here. So I think we have to take it slowly, I mean, both in this conversation and in general, as we try to digest what happened here and try to create a path to move forward that in the long run is productive and healing. I would say that the issue here that's coming up from me from a psychological, perspective and from the perspective of the much larger issue that this raises around racial

equality and embedded and outright racism is the need for accountability and the emergence of defensiveness and deflection that is occurring not only in this scenario with Taylor, but also occurs daily in the hearts and minds of people who are either are only slightly aware or who are in denial about their own embedded or outright racism. So the most important thing here, I think over time, after the shock, I don't want to suggest it's going to wear off, but after the phase of feeling shocked and outraged begins to settle to some extent having a discussion about how racism stays stuck in the minds and hearts of people and in our society because of how a defensive and deflective people can get.

So I think that that's a really good place for us to start and ultimately land is to deeply explore how and why that happens and how to bring ourselves out of that denial and defensiveness. Can we, yeah, just for some understanding, because I said it a little bit ago. But the word that my buddy used to describe this, a friend of mine who I've asked, to kind of hold me accountable during this time, too. He says right now feels, he used the word disorienting, which I think is a great word for this.

Like, it feels disorienting because it's hard to process or understand, react. And then here's the part that I want to ask you on, to help heal, to be a part of the helping process of healing. So what is healing? Like, what, how do we define that? What does that look like? How do we know we're on the path to that? because I would think that when you'd make a statement or an apology, especially from a

sincere place, you would want to put it through the lens of I want to help to heal. Yes. I think in this scenario and whether it is with Taylor Nolan's help or not, it brings to mind the issue of accountability and, as I was saying, the need not to deflect. And so healing has to come with consciousness around how statements like this don't have an expiration date. We don't say slavery happened X number of years ago, so we don't have to think about it anymore. We've moved past that. That statements like that and embedded or outright racism hurt no matter when those issues come to light.

And denying or deflecting that reality disallows healing and learning to occur. So even if the Bachelor Nation audience or those in Taylor's Circle or Life don't feel like there is an acknowledgement of that. And I'm not intimately familiar with all of the iterations of her statements. But we as a whole, you folks at Bachelor in Nation and sort of society as a whole needs to take this as a teaching moment that while putting oneself on the front line of advocating for the BIPOC community is amazing, wonderful, critical work. If you participated in hateful speak prior, making that journey known, transparent, and you. using yourself in spite of the shame and defensiveness you might feel to help teach others and again, to hold yourself accountable is a critical piece. So I think we, you know, kind of Ben, you were saying like the sort of we, that's how we heal. We find within ourselves, we find around

us opportunities to hold ourselves accountable over and over again and to use those that are willing to acknowledge. This is where I made a mistake. This is where I had a blind spot. This is where I became defensive. This is where I refused to acknowledge. This is where I lost sight of my goal and the goal of these marginalized community. If we use those moments to help learn and continue to build our foundation, then something comes from this rather than just, you know, the shock and disorientation that you guys were alluding to. Some people reading these tweets, I'd say, I had ventured to say the majority people reading these tweets

are thinking about the hypocrisy that is going on right now because she has been calling for Chris Harrison to be fired very strongly over the past few weeks. And then we realize that she has a past of this behavior and she says that she's learned and grown and she's done all the work. So she says that she's not supposed to or that her situation is not similar to the Chris Harrison situation.

that just feels inauthentic. It's understandable why a lot of folks are feeling that way. And what's missing is the narrative. What's missing is the through line. From the beginning, there wasn't an outright acknowledgement of her past stance as a person who casually and publicly hurled, racially, insensitive, statements unceremoniously. And the narrative is missing that acknowledged from the beginning, this is where I came from and this is where I'm headed. And that journey, should it have been

made public from the beginning, would be a very, I imagine, difficult, painful, shame-filled journey to hold up for others to see. But it would have been a pretty amazing, learning opportunity for those who followed her. And there appears to be some filling in the blanks now that these tweets have emerged, a suggestion that that was the intention all along. And what's missing is the narrative. So it's hard to lean into her version. I don't know her mind or heart or all the facts of her situation, but it's understandable that

people feel like there's a very big missing piece and to speak so publicly now about those that have also found themselves challenged in the face of statements that are not aligned with supporting our BIPOP community would feel disoriented and offended. So it makes sense And in terms of healing and dealing with that piece of it, perhaps an expanded version of her narrative will unveil itself over time as she comes to terms with this process. Because I would guess, and this isn't even specific to Taylor per se, I don't know her story enough, as I've said a couple of times,

but I think as folks go through the process of healing from adopting racist views, there remain a lot of blind spots. And a blind spot was exposed here, right? The idea that somehow if there was an expiration date on these statements and tweets that it's okay or they don't need to be acknowledged or that somehow she's on the other side of something, right? And those reveal pretty significant blind spots in her process. And in the process of all folks who are trying to unlearn these hateful ideas are blind spots.

So this could be an incredible learning experience if she's able to acknowledge that truth. She hasn't yet is my understanding in the statements that she's made. And that's why so many folks are sitting so uneasily around how this is unfolding. Like I said, I don't want to go through these tweets and, you know, give them any light. but in them she wasn't just putting down people of color but also gay people rape victims Jews even redheads she really offended so many groups yeah yeah thank you for reminding me that there were there were groups outside of the biba community that were impacted yes that's right can i chat with you a second try to explain where i'm at in this um author and

Speaker Carlos Whitaker speaks about that his job is focused on hope, that the only reason he does, Carlos Whitaker is a speaker who shares incredible insight on racism of U.S. history, of his relationship and his desire to love others well. He's an encourager. He's really fantastic. And he just came out. He's like, I am in the interest of. spreading hope. And so he talks about recently what happens when an apology is made because

he, and I'm trying to say this clear, he goes into it saying, hey, who are we, like, can we accept these apologies, these statements that are being thrown out there after somebody messes up? And he goes, if somebody makes a statement, because of the way he wants to see people, he has to accept it. Like that, he doesn't have an option not to accept it. It's very interesting his his perspective on that and so okay so let me get to the point here we sit there with a with a statement like taylor nolan she says what she says there's not really an apology it feels uh it's still yeah like you said it still feels like it's highlighting blind spots um but ultimately i don't have an interest in seeing anybody get destroyed it doesn't make my life

any more interesting it doesn't make my life any better and so i sit in a place like i want to and not even that i'm in a place to except that my mom is a rape victim So I guess I do have a little bit of a say in, you know, saying, hey, this offended me. Like, this isn't okay. Like, this is a big deal to me. But even if I didn't have a place where that was personally offensive to me, I still want to see somebody be able to apologize and move forward. So within that, how do we do that and how do we do that well?

When can we do that? What's healthy for us? What does help us heal? Because right now, all these statements are being asked to be made. They're being made. some are being accepted some aren't there's not a clear reason why some are and some aren't sometimes there is like in this case how do we participate in that i'm so glad you asked that question because i think this whole culture around cancel culture is energy that could be so much better utilized

so while we spin our wheels about whether or not someone should be canceled whether or not she should lose followers or lose endorsements or not have clients, et cetera, we are missing the most important thing that we should be talking about, which is that racism is deeply embedded in our culture and casually utilized amongst many segments of our population. And so the where the life and world of Taylor Nolan resides moving forward will resolve itself, will sort itself out. People will or won't continue to follow her or will or won't forgive her. And I think either is okay. I just encourage listeners not to spend a great percentage of their time on that particular question because it is so much

less relevant than the core issue. Having said that, I acknowledge the world in which we live and specifically the world of Bachelor Nation, where that will be batted about quite a bit. So I would say this. We foreclose an opportunity for deep, painful discussions if we don't listen to each other. And we foreclose an opportunity for people to explore blind spots. We foreclose an opportunity for people to move forward to a better place in their life. What more do we want in terms of our goal to mitigate and eventually eliminate racism and marginalization of underrepresented communities? But for people who are oppressors to understand the pain and hurt they've been causing and to change their stance and to move to another place in life. So

So if Taylor or anyone in her situation demonstrate over time a willingness and an ability to do that in a vulnerable, open, real way, I think it would be a disservice to dismiss that. So perhaps that helps guide your listeners. And Ben, in terms of what you were getting at, maybe on a more existential psychological level to live with hate and anger in our hearts disallows us from participating in community and for participating in ultimate healing. We want our time and energy to be focused on folks that are forward moving and doing the really, really hard work. And if that includes Taylor as this unfolds, that's wonderful. And if it doesn't, then there's there's other places for work to be done.

it's just it's uh you as you say something it's it reminds me that the new host for after the final rose ammanuel a cho has a show entitled uncomfortable conversations with a black man meaning that was the path that he believed would bring healing understanding and accountability in the healthiest of ways is having those uncomfortable hard painful conversations but that he thought it could be worth it and that's you know like i said about you know my mom's story like that's how we got to a place where I could say that openly. It still hurts. It doesn't feel good, right?

And there's still moments where like this, we're like, that, that's a big thing to throw around and like that hurts and triggers in me something enormous. But yet now I'm willing, and if we could, we'd sit down and we'd talk and say, this is why that hurts me. Can we get to a place of understanding the pain? And maybe she already knows that. I don't know. But I would assume at least maybe we could have the uncomfortable conversation to get better.

And instead it right now, it kind of feels like the conversation doesn't exist. That's kind of scary. Yes. And so maybe moments like this fill us with a new kind of courage to confront those things within ourselves. You know, even our own, and I don't mean to equate, I'm going to say even our own blind spots. I don't mean to equate it in the way I was using it before. But you know what the thing is it unveils our own discomforts, our own discomforts, our own. blind spots, the parts of us that are afraid to sit in the middle of messy.

And this is really, really messy. And I think that our reactions to it and the community's reactions to it are understandable. And we don't have to dismiss those feelings or pretend that they're not there. I think this is kind of a process that will pull for anger and some grief and sadness. and all of those things are appropriate. I think we just want to ask ourselves at the, at somewhere in that process is who do we want to be in the face of messy? Who do we want to be in the face when things are are tricky and even ugly?

Who do we want to be in the world? And so if we want to be someone who just sits and lingers and sort of the anger and the hate and the stuckness, that's one path to take. And if we want to be someone who's like, how can I continue to excavate these complications, these hypocrisies, these nuances of this journey towards inclusion, right? Because I don't think it's untrue that Taylor Nolan has done work on behalf of some of

these communities and has had love and care in her heart. I'm sure that's not true, not untrue, but also alongside of that are clearly some other difficult, painful, destructive feelings that either existed in the past or still alongside her in the form of like denial or in the form of dismissiveness or defensiveness. And so all of these things can coexist, right? We can be good and bad. We can be like sort of awakened and still in denial. We can all be all of those things.

And so if we can live in that in between space together, I think that's one of the ways that we all bring ourselves like kind of as a community, as a world towards healing. Dr. Gulles, some of these tweets, they can be destructive. If there are somebody reading it, they may, like, really take them to heart. What do you have as far as advice on that? It's understandable that lots of folks from lots of different walks of life could read those tweets and feel triggered.

And so first, I want to offer compassion and empathy. and understanding if people feel that way. Why wouldn't you? Those are hateful and quite triggering sentiments. So relying on your support systems, whether that's family and friends, therapists, if they're in your life, and if something feels uncontained

and triggers something that feels intense and unrelenting, to reach out for professional support. I know there was a tweet around, and I call this out, not because it's more important than the others, but because it happens to hit in my area of expertise around mental health, something around the treatment of personality disorders

and the word suicide, which are incredibly triggering, powerful, painful, sentiments to put out there. So for those in vaccination, for those in our country in the world that are dealing with, suffering from struggling with mental health disorders, knowing that there is help and support and hope surrounding you, and that sentiments like that come from a a lack of knowledge, ignorance, fear, anxiety, and probably some internalized hopelessness.

And I recognize that the word suicide is a pretty powerful word to appear on a tweet and to appear in any conversation that feels somehow casual. So I just want to encourage listeners if they were triggered upon reading that and any of the other tweets, but with this one in particular, and it brings about any feelings, suicidal, suicidal ideation, et cetera, to reach out to your support network. You are not alone. And always such beautiful, extensive, expansive help in the mental health world that's available for the many, many that struggle.

Thank you so much for being here once again to help us navigate through this. Bye. Bye-bye. Just to wrap up this conversation, it was announced that Taylor will be doing a long-form conversation on this. But at the time of our recording, this is what we had. I believe that she might be releasing a podcast tomorrow, which will be Tuesday, March 2nd.

So this is a conversation that we will continue to discuss over the next few weeks. All right. Well, Ashley, we have a few more headlines. here to a big week of headlines, a long episode of Bachelor headlines. But we have some relationship headlines that we need to talk about. The first one is one that looks promising.

I guess all of them are promising. They're all pretty good. But this one talks about Claire and Dale's PDA and also what their future plans are. So we talked about last week how the two of them were spotted in Florida holding hands by the pool. There were even a couple people who were congratulating a couple on their reconciliation.

Now, a source is telling e-news that Claire and Dale have been having long talks and are making plans for their future together. They both want to make it work. Claire visiting him in Florida really sealed a deal for her. She's apparently completely smitten again and will do whatever it takes to make it work between the two of them. This is very interesting. These are the only problem that they foresee is where they will spend the majority of their time because they live on opposite coast,

she and Sacramento, and him, well, I don't know, bouncing between Florida and New York, but they are continuing to make plans to see each other and continue to date. They had a really great week together in Florida. The source is saying, and they are already acting like they're back together. That's really awesome.

I'm really excited for them. I'm sure it won't become public, you know, on their Instagrams or whatnot for a while. I think they're probably going to keep this private as long as they can. It's a big headline. A lot going on. Well, I didn't even know this is a thing. But The Bachelor at's Caitlin Bristow denies that she's broken up with boyfriend Jason Tardick. This is a headline according to people.

It was really silly. People totally overanalyzed an Instagram post. She posted a picture in the background. has like hearts like little like conversation hearts that you would get on valentine's day one says let's go girls another one says bless something uh and then the other one says babe you know whatever and then there's one that says single a f and people thought that she was trying to hint that they had broken up and she says uh no if you if you pull away and you would see how many hearts there were in that background. One of them also says engaged AF. So she said, so then they

really, they tried to like, they tried to clarify things for the audience on Instagram. Then it kind of confused people a little bit more. She said, Jason, are we engaged? And then he said, no. But then he said, are we broken up? And she said, no. Bottom line is Jason and Caitlin are still very happy together. There you go. Well, another couple that has to come out and say they're happy together is Tasha Adams and Zach Clark. She says, and the quote is, it's not a normal relationship. This is according to us weekly because people were wondering if they had called it done. She says, we're dating right now while being engaged.

It's not a normal relationship. We do bicker and fight, but 99% of the time, it's good. She says it's not her first rodeo. You know, she's been divorced. So she wants to keep her. her place in in southern California while also going back and forth dating

Zach I get that she had to move in back with her parents once her first marriage ended and she doesn't really want to do that again God forbid if something happens to their relationship it would it would be shocking to say the least well final headline is this

and this is one that we just wanted to update everybody on bachelor's Ryan Sutter returns to the gym amid mystery illness battle he's is His quote is, doing my best to get back to my best. This according to us weekly. Well, it's still a mystery illness, but he thanks Trista for always being his rock, his best friend, his hero, his love, even though he's really struggling through this mystery

illness. But he is back in the gym, taking it day by day, just trying to do his best. It's really horrible. So sad. What the heck is going on? It's been months since we first updated everybody on that. I mean, you know, but it's still going on. on. Our thoughts are still with Ryan and Trista and their family, but he's doing his best. Well,

Ashley, that's all the headlines we have for you today. It was a long episode with a lot of headlines, but there's a lot going on. And we want to thank Jordan Davis for coming on. We want to thank Dr. Goldcher for continuing to come on and walk through these things with us. And I want to thank Ashley for always coming on and hanging out and being here. Come on. Hey, thank you for being the articulate one. Thank you for. Thank you for being wonderful and leading and guiding this podcast. No, you're funny. You are a treasure. You're a treasure.

And you guys, thank you to our producers and editors because they are fantastic as well. Until next week, I've been Ashley. And I've been Ben. Follow the Ben and Ashley I, almost famous podcasts on IHartRadio or subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. Hi, my name is Enya Jumanzor. And I'm Drew Phillips. And we run a podcast called Emergency Intercom. If you're a crime junkie and you love crimes, we're not the podcast for you.

But if you have unmedicated ADHD... Oh my God, perfect. And want to hear people with mental illness, psychobabble. Yes, yes. Then Emergency Intercom is the podcast for you. Open your free IHeartRadio app. Search Emergency Intercom and listen now. In sitcoms, when someone has a problem, they just blurt it out and move on.

Well, I lost my job and my power. Karakeet is missing. How is your day? But the real world is different. Managing life's challenges can be overwhelming. So, what do we do? We get support. The Huntsman Mental Health Institute and the Ad Council have mental health resources available for you at loveyourmindtay.org.

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