The Ben and Ashley I Almost Famous Podcast - Almost Famous: A Deeper Understanding

Episode Date: September 24, 2020

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This is an I-Heart podcast. Hi, my name is Enya Eumanzor. And I'm Drew Phillips. And we run a podcast called Emergency Intercom. If you're a crime junkie and you love crimes, we're not the podcast for you. But if you have unmedicated ADHD... Oh my God, perfect. And want to hear people with mental illness, psychobabble.

Yes, yes. Then Emergency Intercom is the podcast for you. Open your... free iHeartRadio app search emergency intercom and listen now our iHeart radio music festival presented by capital one is coming back to las vegas september 19th and 20th on your feet streaming live only on hulu ladies and gentlemen brian adams ed sherin fade chlorilla jelly roll john fogartie lil wane l lL cool jay maria carrie maroon 5 sammy hagar tape mccray the offspring tim mcraw tickets are on sale now at AXS.com. Get your tickets today.

AXS.com. The Super Secret Bestie Club podcast season four is here. And we're locked in. That means more juicy chisement. Terrible love advice. Evil spells to cast on your ex. No, no, no. We're not doing that this season. Oh. Well, this season, we're leveling up.

Each episode will feature a special bestie and you're not going to want to miss it. My name is Curley. And I'm Maya. Get in here. Listen to the Super Secret Festi Club on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. What would you do if one bad decision forced you to choose between a maximum security prison or the most brutal boot camp designed to be hell on earth? Unfortunately from Mark Lombardo, this was the choice he faced. He said, you are a number, a New York State number, and we own you.

Listen to shock incarceration on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. I just normally do straight stand-up, but this is a bit different. What do you get when a true crime producer walks into a comedy club? Answer, a new podcast called Wisecrack, where a comedian finds himself at the center of a chilling true crime story. Does anyone know what show they've come to see? It's a story. It's about the scariest night of my life.

This is Wisecrack, available now. Listen to Wisecrack on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is the Ben and Ashley I, Almost Famous Podcasts with IHartRadio. Welcome to another almost famous podcast. This one is unique and it's special and I think it's timely. You know, obviously we usually do our podcasts on Mondays. the release like late Monday night early Tuesday morning this you know this week's podcast had a response that we felt as a team that we should do a special episode for it's probably not

an episode that you are expecting this will look different than most almost famous episodes but I wanted to start just speaking to all of you as listeners I know there are some very sensitive subjects going around bachelor nation right now as we mentioned the last podcast they're not fun to talk about it is not why we do this podcast it is not why i sit down and work through this podcast it is not the fun moments and it's not things we like to talk about but this is a podcast about what is happening in bachelor nation we are trying our best to cover those using the information that we know and sharing that with the listeners because that's what we've committed to we as host don't have a script there's no practice for this and we say things in the

moment that can be misconstrued and our communication can sometimes fail and mistakes happen I I know they happen they happen often they happen often with me and I'm sure if you're listener you also can relate with you've said things in the moment that you didn't really mean and somehow they got communicated in a way that you never intended them to be communicated and they sat with whoever you were talking to in a way that maybe was offensive and you had to re-communicate re-explain yourself and that's what I have to do now I know on the last podcast I made the comment that love makes you do crazy things that at no level and I want to reinforce this was justifying any actions it was never my intention and it's never my hope and it's not my

feelings to justify any actions that have happened within bachelor nation that comment was irresponsible at best it was something that I said in the moment that I would have loved to follow up on and say, yeah, that's not what I meant. I don't think true, healthy, good love makes you do crazy things. I don't want to justify anybody's actions here. There is no justification for it. But I do want to make it clear that nothing I said was in support of any actions that are damaging to any other human.

What I want to do is say things that help and don't hurt. and we want to walk this line on sensitive subjects to do that. It's not easy, and I'm not great at it. I try really hard, and I'm going to fail. And if you were listening to this podcast for the last how many years we've been doing it, you know I've failed. But I also hope you can see that we're trying. This is not fun for us to sit down and make anybody's life worse.

It's not to hope for this. It doesn't do anything for Ashley or I. our hope is that we sit down we discuss a show that we've experienced and that you all watch and you all enjoy and at the end of it we wash our hands clean and we move on with the week and this week it's heavy on my chest because I know there was words said that have sat with you all and that have offended you all and for that I am sorry it was not my intent there is no justification within those words they're irresponsible words I think at best I was trying to explain the excuses that have been given to why things happened within Bachelor Nation.

But I'm sorry, I'm not justifying any actions. I don't want anybody to hurt worse. I don't want anybody to feel like I am on the side of anybody but somebody hurting deeply, which is a victim. So it is important for me to start this podcast out and say that. Going off of what Ben said, words are powerful. And this week was a lesson for us that we have to be careful, way more careful with our words. When Ben said love makes you crazy.

I knew he meant heartbreak and get so dark for some people that it drives a person to a point where their actions are dangerous, fear-inducing, and mental help is necessary. What love doesn't do is excuse inexcusable behavior. That's something that we did fail to say. Our intentions were never to excuse disgusting behavior by saying such things as love makes you crazy. And while others aren't able to read our heart and our mind's intention, that's the purpose of well-chosen words. And as a podcast host, well, chosen, good chosen words are kind of important. and this has been a reminder of that this week. Today we want to learn how to discuss sensitive subjects better.

We decided to do this podcast so that we can learn alongside any of you listening how to better talk about things like this so that we can ensure that we're helping and not hurting. The money that Ben and I make from today's episode of the Almost Saddam's podcast will be donated to rain. It's a nonprofit helping victims of sexual assault. And our first guest today is Dr. Hilary Golcher. She's a licensed clinical psychologist with a private practice in Beverly Hills.

And she specializes in the treatment of couples and relationships, depression, anxiety, and trauma. My boyfriend's professor is way too friendly. And now I'm seriously suspicious. Well, wait a minute, Sam. Maybe her boyfriend's just looking for extra credit. Well, Dakota, it's back to school week on the OK Storytime podcast. So we'll find out soon. This person writes,

has been hanging out with his young professor a lot. He doesn't think it's a problem, but I don't trust her. Now, he's insisting we get to know each other, but I just want her gone. Now, hold up. Isn't that against school policy? That sounds totally inappropriate. Well, according to this person, this is her boyfriend's former professor, and they're the same age. And it's even more likely that they're cheating.

He insists there's nothing between them. I mean, do you believe him? Well, he's certainly trying to get this person to believe him because he now wants them both to meet. So, do we find out if this person's boyfriend really cheated with his professor or not. To hear the explosive finale, listen to the OK Storytime podcast on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hi, my name is Enya Umanzor. And I'm Drew Phillips. And we run a podcast called Emergency Intercom. If you're a crime junkie and you love crimes, we're not the podcast for you. But if you have unmedicated ADHD,

oh my God, perfect. And want to hear people with mental illness, psychobabble. Yes, yes. Then a Emergency Intercom is the podcast for you. Open your free IHeartRadio app. Search Emergency Intercom and listen now. A foot washed up a shoe with some bones in it. They had no idea who it was. Most everything was burned up pretty good from the fire that not a whole lot was salvageable. These are the coldest of cold cases, but everything is about to change.

Every case that is a cold case that has DNA right now in a backlog will be identified in our lifetime. A small lab in Texas is cracking the code on DNA. Using new scientific tools, they're finding clues in evidence so tiny you might just miss it. He never thought he was going to get caught, and I just looked at my computer screen. I was just like, ah, gotcha. On America's Crime Lab, we'll learn about victims and survivors, and you'll meet the team behind the scenes at Othrum, the Houston Lab that takes on the most hopeless cases to finally solve the unsolvable. Listen to America's Crime Lab on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. My name is Ed. Everyone say hello, Ed.

From a very rural background myself, my dad is a farmer and my mom is a cousin. So, like, it's not like... What do you get when a true crime producer walks into a comedy club? I know it sounds like the start of a bad joke, but that really was my reality nine years ago. I just normally do straight stand-up, but this is a bit different. On stage stood a comedian with a story that no one expected to hear. Well, 22nd of July 2015, a 23-year-old man had killed his family. And then he came to my house.

So what do you get when a true crime producer walks into a comedy club? A new podcast called Wisecrack, where stand-up comedy and murder takes center stage. Available now. Listen to Wisecrack on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, sis, what if I could promise you you never had to listen to a condescending finance, bro, tell you how to manage your money again. Welcome to Brown Ambition. This is the hard part when you pay down those credit cards. If you haven't gotten to the bottom of why you were racking up credit or turning to credit cards, you may just recreate the same problem a year from now.

When you do feel like you are bleeding from these high interest, rates. I would start shopping for a debt consolidation loan, starting with your local credit union, shopping around online, looking for some online lenders because they tend to have fewer fees and be more affordable. Listen, I am not here to judge. It is so expensive in these streets. I 100% can see how in just a few months you can have this much credit card debt when it weighs on you. It's really easy to just like stick your head in the sand. It's nice and dark in the sand. Even if it's scary, it's not going to go away just because you're avoiding it. And in fact, it may get even worse. For more judgment-free money advice, listen to Brown Ambition on the IHeart Radio app,

Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, Dr. Bolshear, how are you doing? Good, Ashley. Thanks for having me. How do you been to? Oh, thank you for being here. So just our listeners are out there. Can you give a little background about why you're here right now? Like what makes you equipped to speak with us? Sure. I'm a clinical psychologist. I practice in Beverly Hills, and one of my areas of specialty is around domestic violence. And it sounds like there's been a lot of really important discussions and a whole range of feelings about the topics you've discussed over the last podcast. And I feel like I'm in a really good position to sort of address concerns, confusion, upset, and this super important topic. you know can we start there then um we this podcast is not we just talked about it but it's just not fun to talk about those like the the subjects that are heavy and burdenful and they're just sensitive they're sensitive topics um there's obviously things that that i said on the the podcast

before i made the comment i said uh love makes you do crazy things and i've already spoken to the fact that i didn't mean it in any really with anything it was an irresponsible thing for me to say because I had no weight behind it. It had no intention behind it. It was just the thing I said. And I now recognize, based on a few people who have been awesome to me, who are victims or they know somebody close to them, they're victims that said, hey, this is why this was offensive. It was offensive because it felt like you were justifying that love gives you the excuse to do things that are harmful or hurtful. And I recognize that now. That was not at all what I wanted. But I would love if you could spend a few moments and talk about, you know, when we do speak openly, like how we navigate these sensitive subjects so that we aren't harmful in our speech, especially when we're just, you know, when there are just topics that come up and we have to speak off of off the cuff. Yeah. Yeah, it's such a complex question and the right one to ask. I mean, we of course want to address these topics with a lot of sensitivity and with the goal of listening, right? I mean, whenever we're talking about something where people have been harmed emotionally or physically, we want to be listening. We want to ask a lot of questions. We want to understand what their experience is before we offer our perspective or opinion. I think that's a really important thing for all of us to try to strive towards. However, we all in conversation with our friends and family and loved ones, in conversations in podcasts or in groups of friends, get animated and involved in conversations and say things that we might not think through beforehand.

So to me, this is a beautiful teaching moment. And Ben, I mean, it might not be fun to be at the center of it for you, but it's a beautiful teaching moment, we're all human. We all say things at moments that we don't think about or come to learn, impact someone in a way that we never intended. So this is a moment to sort of really step back for you, for all of your listeners, that when you're talking about things like this, like harassment, domestic violence, and that arena of pain that people go through, that we want to be really, really careful about the words that we choose. We want to ask a lot of questions. We want to understand what people are going through.

and we want to bring a lot of sensitivity to the topic. And part of it is that there's just a lack of discussion and education around this issue. This isn't something people talk about in a lot of different circles often. And so part of, I hope, what we're doing here today is increasing our ability to have these kind of conversations, not just shy away from them, but how do we have them productively and respectfully? So some of our feedback from Monday's episode was people telling us that we shouldn't be discussing matters like this. Like this is not the point of our podcast. And part of me was like, oh, maybe. And then the other part of me thought, well, don't we need to talk about this in order to prevent it from happening to more people?

And I guess my question is when it comes to high profile cases like this, do we let them be dealt with as privately as possible or do we discuss it like we are today? I think it's a fine line. I think we have to be really careful about delving into the details of anyone's issues around domestic violence or harassment, stalking, et cetera. if we don't have all the information at hand, whether it's a high profile case or something in our personal circles, I think we have to be really careful about it, because if we don't have all the information, there's a lot of hypothesis and speculation

and that can be hurtful or harmful to people. However, I think we can have a really important macro discussion about the issue of domestic violence and the issue of stalking and harassment and even what happens to people on both sides of that equation, right? equation, right? Like what does it like to be a victim of stalking and harassment and domestic violence? What does it do to someone psychologically? What does it take to speak out publicly or just legal assistance and assistance? And if you're on the other end of it and have perpetrated these type of wounds against someone, how does that come to pass? And how does someone like that begin to heal? I think those are all really important discussions to have, both on a micro and a macro. level. So I think I think it's possible for both to happen. It can coexist that you can talk about this issue about these two folks from this nation of people that you talk about a lot without

delving so deep into areas that with which you aren't familiar. So I think I think both can be accomplished. Well, let's start there then. Because obviously the last few days have just And this is not about me at any level, but they've been really hard to process because I know how I feel and I also know that how Ashley feels. And I know we do want to help and not hurt and that there's things we say sometimes that definitely hurt. And I guess as we do then begin to speak up or let's move it to this example then. Say we have a friend who is on both sides of this situation. what can we do as friends to be helpful to them in situations like this and let's start with speaking to the victim if there is somebody that has been hurt and pained how do we as humans

communicate with them to allow them to feel safe and to at least to however they want to open up to us yes such an important question and I sort of alluded to it before but really important to repeat, being a listener, asking a lot of questions, slowing down your pace and your energy, and just deeply sinking into meeting the person where they're at and hearing their story. Support and empathy and compassion is key because most people who are in situations where they are victims' domestic violence or stalking harassment feel a tremendous amount of anxiety and fear and helplessness and a sense of feeling sort of out of control. And there's a lot of feelings around talking about it publicly, not just publicly, like in the format where you all

are dealing with, but just publicly to friends and family. It can feel, one can feel shame, embarrassment, fear of retaliation from the person whom they're accusing. And there's such a myriad of feelings that someone in that position is going to experience. So sitting with them and being able to absorb those feelings, listen, and ask questions, and offer empathy and compassion is key, it is a requirement, you know, for that person to be able to sit with you and feel heard and safe. And I think if you only do one thing, it's that. And then the second is trying to figure out what level of concern or danger that this person

is experiencing and are external resources required. And so that means reaching out to a therapist, Does that mean reaching out to authorities? Does that mean reaching out to parents or family, et cetera, making sure that you're helping that person mobilize resources? What do you do if you don't have proof that there's something dangerous going on, but you have a sense that your friend in a relationship is going through something very serious? How do you approach that if they don't bring it up to you? Do you at all approach it?

Such a good question. My opinion is that you do approach it, but you approach it in a way that is open, that is flexible, and that is without pressure, so that you're going to someone and saying a version of, my intuition is saying that something's happening here, and I just want to check in with you. Is there any way in which you're feeling not safe, physically, emotionally? And if the person is quickly defensive or dismissive, and you still have that suspicion, making sure that you create an open door. that you create an open space, okay, I hear you, I just want to let you know I'm no matter what, I'm here for you. I support the relationship, something happens,

I'm here for you, I'm always a resource for you and making sure that you aren't pushing your opinion or your agenda or your fears too close to that person so that they shut down and don't see you as a safe haven to go to at some other time. I mean, if you think someone is in imminent danger, then you're going to want to go to

the authorities or something. thing, of course. But in the scenario that you described where you have an inkling and aren't sure, in my opinion, the key is keeping the door open so that that person can come to you if something happens and they need help. I always struggle before we move into then something that I don't think gets talked about a lot. And one thing you'd hinted at is talking about what we do if there is somebody on the harassing or stalking end of things and how we deal with that. But before we get there, one scenario I always struggle with is, you know, when I know there's something traumatic or really difficult going on in somebody's life that is a friend of mine, that I have communication with often, I never know if I should be the one reaching out. I never know if, and maybe this could be the transition into talking about both sides, because I don't know my role in this, because I know how I feel. I know what I stand for, but yet there's still humans at play here. And those humans still matter to you as a friend or to what, you know. So do you reach out? Do you just wait till they reach out? How do you deal with that?

You know, I work a lot with people who are dealing with grief who have lost parents, sisters, brothers, children, etc., and this question comes up a lot. Should I reach out to my friend who lost a daughter? I'm so anxious about the idea of having that conversation, of triggering something with them, of reaching out if they haven't reached out to me, et cetera. And almost always, when you speak to the person dealing with the grief, they always want welcome. being reached out to, being told that they're being thought of, letting them know that there's someone there for them, should they need it, and are never additionally traumatized by someone bringing up the topic, so to speak.

So all of this to say that through that in particular and through my work as a clinician, the answer is sort of an unabashedly yes. I don't think you can ever lose to go to a loved one or a friend and say, I'm thinking of you, I'm here. And if this isn't the right time for you, if it isn't something you want to talk about, absolutely respect that, but I want to let you know that I'm here and I'm a resource

for you if and when you're ready. I think it's a really important thing. And it can be a really uncomfortable thing because to move into the space of someone's suffering, even via text or via phone call or a drop-by visit is vulnerable, is anxiety-provoking, is difficult. It makes us feel awkward. It makes us feel difficult when we're reaching out. but we have to kind of reach out outside of ourselves and be in that uncomfortable space

in the service of letting someone know we're thinking of them. It's sort of, I mean, it's sort of like humanity. What brings us together is that kind of connection and letting people know that like, I'm thinking of you when things are hard. You said a word there that, you know, it's a good, I don't know if it's something I've learned already in the last, you know, a couple minutes of us talking, but the triggering. and being more careful of the language used to and because I think personally I struggle with

trying to fill the gap in those conversations like not letting silence sit and just trying to say something to fill the gap to try to make it feel better and something that as you're talking that's reminded me is sometimes I can't fill that gap and when I do there's actually something there that I would say that is triggering and hurtful and harmful and allowing those silence those moments of silence to be there and then asking those questions to learn and to not assume are just that's I don't know that's something I'm taking out of this and as I sit here hearing you talk I'm saying yes this is exactly why we wanted to do this so that hopefully I can learn and leave this and people listening and actually can leave this

and become a better friend or a better partner or whatever that looks like um one thing that's a difficult subject that that I don't even know how to broach or even ask into is what do you do for somebody that is on the other side? What is our role there as humans? And how do we navigate that appropriately without causing more harm? It's a really difficult question. There's only imperfect answers. I mean, it's so messy and difficult if someone that we love engages in behavior that is wrong. I mean, it's really painful for everyone involved. So I think it's just really important to acknowledge that up front that no matter what we do, it's going to be a little messy because that's a really, really messy scenario. Someone we love did something that is

wrong or hurt another person. You know, there's not much we can do that's going to fully heal that fracture. Having said all that, I think that it is important to acknowledge the person who has engaged in the wrong behavior in some way, to let them know that you have heard their story, that you're thinking of them and wishing them healing. You know, a version of being able to stand in the sphere of someone who is dealing with something difficult and trying to heal and find forgiveness within themselves

and find better ways and better coping mechanisms that you can stand even symbolically to support that effort, even if you aren't directly involved. So communicating in some way that I support your effort as you move towards healing. and I want you to know that kind of thing could serve to communicate I'm thinking of you I'm here for you for you and I am supporting the idea of this being changeworthy behavior you know so trying to navigate what I think you're asking which is how do I love on someone how do I

support someone and also make it clear that I don't endorse or support the behavior you know so there's there's some version of being able to do that in a respectful way I mean it depends on the role of the person that you're talking about. If it's a dear friend of yours, you might have a more candid conversation with that person. How did this happen? Where do things go wrong? How can I support you in figuring out a different way? If it's someone that you know less well and are just trying to sort of put out into the world that you don't support the behavior and that you do support healing, there's probably a way to do that without triggering too many people in your own sphere and in that person's fear i um find myself frustratingly inarticulate especially in tough sticky situation like the

the heart of the situation to talk about the the less words come to me right and things just may come out that i that don't do the job that i intended them to do like we were talking about earlier I guess what are some trigger words or phrases that I wouldn't think were offensive to a victim but are? Can you think of any? I think the notion of over questioning the victim about their narrative. I thought you guys were in a really good place. Okay. I've never seen that kind of energy between you two.

You know, anything that might demonstrate a dismissiveness or a denial or a disbelief of the victim's story, we really want to be careful to avoid. I think that's a primary thing that comes to mind. I think platitudes can be difficult for people to take into. Oh, that's really hard, you know, kind of thing. Really asking questions and sitting back and listening, I think, is critical. What's this been like for you? How has it been? It's hard for me to imagine.

I would love to sit with you as you talk about it, you know, kind of thing. You know, Ben mentioned something really important, which I want to re-highlight around being able to tolerate that silence and that, I guess, awkwardness. This is a messy, awkward situation, the one that we're talking about, specifically in any situation where there's domestic violence or harassment or stalking. And so but being able to tolerate the messiness of it as someone on the outside, as someone who's not the victim, you know, that's a job we should probably try to take on, you know, since we're not the victim, we're not the perpetrator, we're a support member.

And so being able to sit in the silence, being able to sit in the awkwardness, being able to say, I'm not even sure what to say right now, but I'm just going to sit here with you. I think are really important skills to cultivate in moments like this. We don't have to fix it as a support number. We cannot fix it. We cannot. That isn't our job. The best that we can do is to let people know we love you.

We're here. I'm sitting with you in this. I thank you for all of this, by the way. This is really helpful for me. And I hope it is for the listeners, especially coming off of, you know, something that was contentious. misunderstood and really fired people up. I was told I was talking to buddy yesterday and was just like just in the worst possible

place mentally. And he just reminded me. He said, hey, like, this is really hard. You know your intentions. It sometimes takes really difficult situations to bring about something positive. And I think what I'm feeling is like the firing up and the anger, it was, was, was healthy at some level because what it is is it forces us to sit down

and say, okay, let's regroup and let's talk about how we actually communicate to others who have really difficult situations and maybe we can all take something away from the message that you're sharing and go, I just want to be a better friend, a better partner, a better son, a better sister, whatever that is.

And I hope that's happening. It's happening for me. If we could spend a few moments, something that was intrigued to me is, you know, it's no secret. We're in a very divisive time in the United States especially. It feels like especially during quarantine,

I hear more and more often that people just feel like they can't communicate with each other and that there's these silos that we run into and everybody's yelling at each other through the silo and nobody actually wants to enter in to understand where the other person is coming from. With that being the stage it's set right now and for a lot of us feeling it,

I don't want to assume everybody, but a lot of us is feeling it. How do we navigate then moving from difficult situations that surround trauma to then just moving about our everyday lives, talking about things that are triggering. So you're saying how do those things coexist, both the truth that trauma has occurred, is occurring, and how do we also go about our sort of regular day? Yeah, and then moving then into like, how do we start talking about difficult subjects

that maybe don't, aren't backed by trauma, but they're backed by our passions and our feelings, if that be spiritually, politically, emotionally. I see what you're saying. Yeah, I think it's a really timely question for the environment in which we find ourselves. And a lot of important discussions need to happen right now in our society. So it's really good to be thinking about how do I do this in a way that's most digestible. I think that's what you're talking about. So being able to narrate that up front, I think it's really, really important.

And, you know, in the context of a podcast that you host or when you're talking with friends or family, being able to say, I have a lot on my mind right now. And I want to share it. I want to talk about it. I want to elicit feedback and have discourse. But it's difficult material. It's triggering. It's about the BLM movement. It's about domestic violence.

It's about our upcoming election. Are you available to have that kind of discussion? I'd like to do it if you're up for it kind of thing. this isn't something you could ask on a podcast, but if you are with friends or family. And if you're about to do something like that on a podcast, sort of letting the audience know that we're going to go into some territory that might be triggering. There's that word again. That might be complex. That might be messy. But it's important as people, especially given the times that we're in to go there so we can all learn, so we can educate,

so we can transform. And so I think when people feel like they have a narrative to present what your intentions are and to let them know what's coming, that they feel more open to it and feel more contained before you enter into the part where you're talking about really difficult material and triggering stuff. Yeah. Thank you. I think that's a way that we can be careful with our words and with our sentiments, but not shut down and avoid them because we don't want to do that either. Why not? Why? I mean, why in these moments and holistically, we've just talked about through this up until this point on this podcast, why don't we want to just ignore them and shut down? If we ignore them and shut down, we never learn, we never grow,

we never transform, we never change. As I was looking at some of the discourse that was happening on your Instagram page, one of the reasons I wanted to come join you today is that I didn't want the conversation to get foreclosed because, for example, domestic violence is a really important topic and a lot of people have shame, embarrassment and myriad of experiences that they can't imagine sharing because it feels so triggering and they fear that there's judgment and repercussions. And I don't want that for people that are victims. I want there to be a discussion that can feel supportive and open and has an opportunity to educate people who don't know, you know, who don't know about it, who don't know how to talk about it. And that goes for all

sensitive topics. If we shut down and don't talk about it, we never grow and transform and change. And we see that with the Black Lives movement now, right? Is that finally as a society, we're starting to talk about it. And things are beginning slowly to change. Do you think that there's anything that we should talk about now that we haven't addressed yet that will help educate people on this? I think talking about what happened yesterday or whenever you're you guys did the podcast is probably the most key thing that you can do in terms of educating people, how having casual discussions about sensitive, difficult, painful topics can impact people. And I think that's the thread of your message is part of the recognition that like, hey, we want to be able to talk about this and we want to do it in the best way possible. And so being able to stand up and go, wow, we might not have done that in the best way possible.

And we're okay standing up and saying that because we want to be examples of how to, again, grow, transform, and do it differently. And so to me, I hope that's the biggest takeaway for folks listening is that, right, we all might make mistakes when we talk about things that are messy because it's hard. And we get confused. lose. We lose the through line. We're overly casual in a moment. And we can step back and learn and impact people in a more positive way. We never want to lose a moment like that. We discussed cancel culture a couple, you know, during the same podcast. And I think that what I don't like about cancel culture so much is that it's just not forgiving and it doesn't allow people to learn from their mistakes and I guess how do you feel that counterculture is affecting

these kinds of conversation because now I feel like there's even more fear around having conversations like this I talk a lot about cancel culture in my work and I always say there's there's probably a time and a place for cancel culture like a Harvey Weinstein or something right where there's been such sort of documented abhorrent behavior that disaffiliating from someone like that makes a lot of sense. Oh, yeah. So in some ways it can apply and it's a way that society can hold someone accountable who's wronged so many people on that level.

Having said that in a situation like you guys are dealing with, when someone does or says something that feels hurtful or triggering to people, if we totally foreclosed conversation, we absolutely lose moments for people to grow and change and educate themselves and to educate others that are participating or listening. And so I think it really can do harm in that sense. And if we have willing spirits like you two are who want to learn, who want to listen, who want to hear and grow and think about this and talk about that, we don't want to miss that in my opinion. We don't want to miss that at all. We want to highlight it. We have two people are willing to be vulnerable and say like, I don't know if that went as well as it could.

If I want to do that better, let's hold that up. Like I said, if we have willing spirits and show people what it looks like to go, I might not have liked how that went. I want to do it differently. I want to talk about it and want to be vulnerable. And I think if we were able to do that in small and large scales over and over and over again, we'd be more connected as a society. So I think every little moment like this matters where we have someone who is willing to say, I want to be vulnerable. I want to learn. So I dislike cancel culture when it's applied in this kind of situation because we miss all of that. And that's where a lot of the beauty and learning comes. We're, you know, because this is, what happened on our podcast is an example. And we're trying

to use it to create a bigger discussion that we all are learning from, including the listener out there and so if we're looking at all of us here going okay this happened this is a good example that we can all that we've pretty much all heard and we understand um where is the through line then you've talked about the through line like where does cancel like how do we then look at this and people are really enrage and they're angry and they're triggered and they feel like there there's there's stuff on our podcast that's justifying stuff that they are very much against and it's like no it's not at all it's not what it was meant so like what stops that person from going through the through line saying I'm just done or saying I'm going to stick it out for a bit like how do you

help like in a healthy with healthy boundaries understand that for yourself hopefully this kind of discourse penetrates the the upset and sense of enragement that people are experiencing right now you know this kind of discourse and people get in touch with their own humanity you know and their own ability to make mistakes and their own flaws, you know, and that these kind of discussions make someone go like, right, we all make mistakes. We all show up in ways that we aren't proud of in moments. And if we shut each other down after those things occur, we never get to stay connected. We never get to learn.

We never get to stay whole, really. And so we hope that it just penetrates people's sense of humanity. you know that's really the through line to me and look i i support the idea of people advocating for victims of domestic violence it's a good idea to make sure that victims of domestic violence don't feel shamed or don't feel exploited that's that's a good idea and i would stand alongside someone who is advocating for that and so i think your listeners that that were sending that message along can feel supported or justified. I think the nuance we're trying to demonstrate here is that you guys stand with that idea too. That the kind of dialogue that you had might not

have fully demonstrated that. And for that, you are sorry and want to do better. But that everyone can stand together and the idea that we want victims to heal and to feel support. and we want perpetrators to be held responsible. And so I think that people are able to take kind of a deep breath and allow those truths to sink in, that those were the messages that you guys stood behind to begin with as well. We don't have to be so divisive because this is why often divisiveness happens is that people aren't willing to fully listen, you know? So I guess the through line is humanity and listening. And some people listening might find that and some people might not.

might not. And that's okay because this is messy. This is emotional and messy. And I think we have to be okay with all of this being imperfect because it's a hard situation. And a lot of people's emotional reactions are super justified in the sense that they're genuine feelings and they're to do the right thing, just like you guys are. So we may also have to just be okay with everyone living with a degree of upset around this because this is a hard topic. Dr. Goldcher, we really appreciate you. Thank you for doing this with us. It's been really good for me.

I hope it's good for, you know, a few people out there listening. Thanks for sharing your wisdom and your insight. And thank you for willing, you know, kind of being willing to sit with us through something that's difficult and then also educating all of us on how we can be better. Dr. Goldcher, before you leave, if anybody's out there listening who is, in the midst of deep trauma, they haven't found an outlet to speak about it. What advice would you give to anybody for ways to get help, resources to get help, et cetera? Yeah, well, it's so important to just begin talking to someone. And if that's just a trusted other, a friend or a partner or a family member, it's critical

to start getting your story out. And if you're finding that you have invasive symptoms, whether that's depression, anxiety, ruminating thoughts, et cetera, that you reach out to a professional. And you can Google in your local areas looking for a psychologist that specialize in domestic violence. And during quarantine, COVID, lots of folks are offering virtual sessions, and so there's resources available immediately. So I would just encourage to start talking first with trusted others and then with a professional if additional help is needed. Thank you so much for being here. It means

a lot. Thanks for having me. I'm glad I could be here. My boyfriend's professor is way too friendly, and now I'm seriously suspicious. Well, wait a minute, Sam. Maybe her boyfriend's just looking for extra credit. Well, Dakota, it's back to school week on the OK Storytime podcast, so we'll find out soon. This person writes, my boyfriend has been hanging out with his young professor a lot.

He doesn't think it's a problem, but I don't trust her. Now he's insisting we get to know each other, but I just want her gone. Now hold up, isn't that against school policy? That sounds totally inappropriate. Well, according to this person, this is her boyfriend's former professor, and they're the same age. And it's even more likely that they're cheating. He insists there's nothing between them. I mean, do you believe him?

Well, he's certainly trying to get this person to believe him because he now wants them both to meet. So, do we find out if this person's boyfriend really cheated with his professor or not? To hear the explosive finale, listen to the OK Storytime podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hi, my name is Enya Umanzor. And I'm Drew Phillips. And we run a podcast called Emergency Intercom. If you're a crime junkie and you love crimes, we're not the podcast for you. But if you have unmedicated ADHD...

Oh my God, perfect. And want to hear people with mental illness, psycho babble. Yes, yes. Then Emergency Intercom is the podcast for you. Open your free IHeartRadio app. Search Emergency Intercom. And listen now. My name is Ed.

Everyone say, hello, Ed. I'm from a very rural background myself. My dad is a farmer and my mom is a cousin. So, like, it's not like... What do you get when a true crime producer walks into a comedy club? I know it sounds like the start of a bad joke, but that really was my reality nine years ago. I just normally do straight stand-up,

but this is a bit different. On stage stood a comedian with a story that no one expected to hear. Well, 22nd of July 2015, a 23-year-old man had killed his family. And then he came to my house. So what do you get when a true crime producer walks into a comedy club? A new podcast called Wisecrack, where stand-up comedy and murder takes center stage. Available now. Listen to Wisecrack on the IHeart Radio app,

podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Janica Lopez, and in the new season of the Overcover podcast, I'm taking you on an exciting journey of self-reflection. Am I ready to enter this new part of my life? Like, am I ready to be in a relationship? Am I ready to have kids and to really just devote myself and my time? I wanted to be successful on my own, not just because of who my mom is. Like, I felt like I needed to be better or work twice as hard as she did.

Join me for conversations about healing. and growth. Life is freaking hard. And growth doesn't happen in comfort. It happens in motion even when you're hurting. All from one of my favorite spaces, The Kitchen. Honestly, these are going to come out so freaking amazing. Be a part of my new chapter and listen to the new season of the Overcomfit podcast as part of the My Cultura podcast network on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, sis, what if I could promise you you never had to listen to a condescending finance, bro, tell you how to manage your money again. Welcome to Brown Ambition.

This is the hard part when you pay down those credit cards. If you haven't gotten to the bottom of why you were racking up credit or turning to credit cards, you may just recreate the same problem a year from now. When you do feel like you are bleeding from these high interest rates, I would start shopping for a debt consolidation loan, starting with your local credit union, shopping around. online, looking for some online lenders because they tend to have fewer fees and be more affordable. Listen, I am not here to judge. It is so expensive in these streets. I 100% can see how in just a few months you can have this much credit card debt when it weighs on you. It's really easy to just like stick your head in the sand. It's nice and dark in the sand. Even if it's scary, it's not going to go away just because you're avoiding it. And in fact, it may get even

worse. For more judgment-free money advice, listen to Brown Ambition on the IHeart Radio app, podcast or wherever you get your podcast. Our next guest is somebody who has become a friend of mine. I've gotten to know through a couple different instances. Elise was a huge supporter of the Bachelor Live on stage. Elise, welcome to the Almost Famous podcast. Thank you. And thanks for having me.

Thank you. I want to give a little bit of a background while you're here from my perspective. so we've already broached on the things that I said that came off poorly and that triggered some and that angered many and through all of this you were actually the first time I even knew this like when you texted me it was the first time I even knew something was happening I was with my parents and I got your text and your text just laid out to me that hey you had listened to the podcast that there was some things said that you felt were not right and you wanted to get clarity on them. You know, that's been, what, two days now since you texted me, and you've been a consistent voice to me through that. You did not only bring it to light in my life and to tell me how I misspoke and what I said that was triggering, but you then also have encouraged me and help guide me through that. this and it's weird how life happens and how there's unexpected people that kind of step in

at moments that you don't expect it and when you need it and speak truth into you that isn't just, you know, saying things that are nice to help you feel better, but actually like speaking constructive criticism into you so that you can be better and you've done that for me. So it was only right that we brought you on because you do come from a place that can speak to this and you've spoke it to me and so I just want to open up the floor to you to talk about why you're here and why this mattered to you so much.

Yeah, it was a friend that sent me and thanks for all those kind words but it was a friend that sent me the clip and I'll be honest, I didn't listen to the whole episode but I listened to what we're talking about today and immediately I knew why she had sent me the clip and I know you guys have talked about this earlier in this podcast but

I felt that when you are quote unquote a public figure, right, people on social media are quick to jump and want to make commentary and speculate on people's intentions behind their words. And I think from our brief interactions together, I had a very good sense that you don't do things with the intention to hurt people. And I wanted to go into the conversation with you initially privately, knowing what I know of you and that your intentions in having that conversation and wanting to show support for cast but also empathy for other humans that are involved got massively you missed the mark and I told you that in our conversation and I think for me this is not something that I ever

thought I would talk about publicly because it is so personal and there's very mixed messages, but I felt like by me reaching out to you and sharing a little bit of my backstory and being a victim of domestic partner abuse and having to go through some of these really difficult choices that you guys were talking about having a perspective from the other end, that maybe I could shed some light, but from a place of hopefully love and compassion and not just anger over what was said. well you've done that um and i i mean i i i can't tell you how much i do appreciate it um because i do i think it's it's probably helpful and we haven't dove into this yet but you know

the words that i said um that love makes you do crazy things what about that and triggered you what about that frustrated you um i think there's two parts of it one it really, unfortunately, we have this narrative through even just movies, but just our idea of what love should look like based on the representations we have around us. And sometimes those representations really aren't a healthy display of love. We have all gone through heartbreak and navigated it poorly, right? You've sent, we have won too many cocktails and sent a text that you regret. Like, we can all agree that it's not, that was not an act of love when you sent that text, that's acting out of ego and hurt. But there's a massive distinction

between a regrettable text or a comment said in an argument and intentionally and purposefully causing someone physical, emotional, or psychological harm. Those two can't go hand in hand because love and Ben, I know you talk a lot about your faith. And if we go back to like the good old Corinthians passage that we all talk about of what is love. But I was, yeah, I was looking at that last night. There is never a time in there that it excuses behavior that is not beneficial to others. Because at the root of it, we have to stop talking about. And in a way, or at least verbally making it sound like we're excusing poor behavior as passion, as intimacy, and nobody understands our relationship but us.

These are all a narrative that abusers use to justify their actions. So then when we use those same narratives that the victim has heard over and over, you think they must be right. He is right. He just loves me. We're passionate. We fight hard. We love harder.

That's not love. And so that part of it affected me. But also, I want to make it clear, too, that I can, understand wanting to have empathy for just a human person, whoever that is, and that it doesn't coincide with making excuses for inexcusable behavior, but you would hope, especially for me, and I'm happy to share some of the backstory, that there is some sort of intervention with mental health or whatever the case may be, that they break those cycles of abuse because the person that did it to me, did it to someone earlier, and maybe if they've had that help, that wouldn't

have happened to me. And unfortunately, it happened to the girl after me. And so I want to encourage that people that are really struggling with whether they had prior abuse in their lives and it's manifesting in now their romantic relationship, that they should and absolutely should get help. But when we say things that make the narrative of the abuser, something that is so commonplace for the victim, it really makes you second guess your own intuition of what is right or wrong in a relationship. I think that's one of the biggest things I've learned and you highlighted to me was that those words I used that were irresponsible did give an excuse for why things were happening

and not only did it justify it, but it excused it, and it did make it commonplace. And for me, that's a takeaway from this, that honestly, I didn't understand until you highlighted it to me. But now, as you explain it and have explained it to me, it is definitely hurtful when I said that. A hundred percent it's hurtful. A hundred percent I can see where somebody would listen to that who is in the midst or who has been. been a victim and go ben is excusing actions that have devastated me and hurt my life yeah and you know and that's why i wanted to talk to you initially about privately because i know your heart i think i know that that was not the intention behind your words but i think opening up if anything

positive is to come from what has i'm sure for you been a really really dark time um of hearing these comments and accusations about your intention behind those words is that it's opening up a dialogue for someone to give not you not only you information but other people that that we have to change the narrative around what domestic abuse even looks like because I'm going to be honest the if you look into like statistics and I shared some of these with Ben and I'm sure earlier you guys mentioned this when you were talking about a therapist but I'm feel like we put things on this spectrum of, and I've even seen this in comments about recent events, if they're not hit, if they're not sexually abused, it almost goes on this

spectrum of how bad is it really? And when you start going through statistics and I did after our conversation, Ben, and I'm sitting there checking off going down of things of how it impacts people's lives to be harassed, to be stalked. It is psychological. warfare and that is the best way I can put it and I'm not discrediting the severity of what other people go through as far as actual physical abuse or otherwise but all levels of abuse have long-term effects on the person that was victimized and and so yes words and things that make it seem okay if just taken per face value what those words are really discredit the actual work that myself and others have to do to just feel like themselves again.

And I can't speak for everyone, obviously, but it wasn't so much that through my experience, I lost trust in other people or even romantic relationships, but I lost trust in myself of what I was allowing in my life, the wise, all these things that go through your head when constantly you are just scared at every turn. and to not trust yourself is something that takes years to overcome. And so I don't want to minimize abuse as category A is bad, category B is worse, and C is the absolute worst because all of it has just unbelievable long-term effects on the person that went through it.

It might be helpful here. How do you define abuse? this is certainly not going to be a therapist way of defining it but for myself it it where i could draw the line was would i accept this if my best friend was telling me this was happening to her at some point yeah people are going to go through you know we all make mistakes in relationships we all do and say things that are regrettable but when you are in a position where you're losing work, you're forced to move. You are isolated and I really want to hone in on that isolation thing because that is usually how this starts no matter what type of abuse it is. The

easiest way to control and manipulate someone is to isolate them as much as possible from friends and family that care about them that would point out that this is not okay. So if I was seeing this in a friend and her relationship or his relationship, at what point would I step in and say something. And if I would do that for them, why aren't I doing it for myself? So I define abuse as behavior that I wouldn't tolerate for the people that I love the most because a lot of times they were very quick to jump to action for people we love and not as quick to jump to protect ourselves. Elise, when you were going through this, was there a friend of yours that really excelled in taking care of you? And can you explain how they were able to communicate with you in such an

effective way. I am very, very lucky that I have an incredible family. And my dad is, can I say he's no bullshitter? He tells things like it is. But when we're living states apart, it's not always easy to see what's going on. And at the time, I was not really close to many people. And like I said, isolation becomes a huge part of it. I remember the people that introduced me to this guy, I wasn't even allowed to be in their wedding because he had a problem with it. I mean, this is the extent that people go to make sure that you're in a bubble all to yourself or to the abuser's self, really. Did I have friends that supported me?

Absolutely. But during it, I'll be honest, I was hiding a lot of what was going on out of fear of criticism, out of shame that wasn't mine to hold, but that is something I think a lot of people experience. it's embarrassing you don't want to admit to how bad things really got we all want to have the happily ever after and when it goes on a path that is so opposite of that it's really hard to open up to people but after i came forward and i'll be honest i was forced to come forward it was not some a decision i made on my own um the state press charges and after a particularly bad incident and then we things escalated from there but after it came forward the amount of support

I had whether it was from family even from a long distance or friends just having a unbiased of course they support you but if you have a friend going through this don't go into like the rhetoric of like your favorite self-help guru because it's a lot deeper than you know think positive and you'll get through this you have to understand that by the time someone opens up they've more than likely been holding on to this pain and the shame that goes along with that for longer than you have ever recognized because you become so good at being a chameleon to keeping that person happy so that the abuse doesn't continue but also to not show anyone else was going on out of fear of retaliation if you do uh

Alisa, I want to give you the ability to share your story as much as you're comfortable with. But just before we do, you did share some statistics with me. I don't know if they're in front of you right now. I have a couple of them. I know I sent you a few in our conversation, but. Yeah, do you mind sharing those? And then whatever amount of your story you're comfortable sharing, if you'd like to do that, I think it would be appreciated. And I can certainly give you the link.

to where I found these, but it was from a 2011 study, so I can't even imagine how this has escalated with technology advancing. But one in seven people, and this is only about domestic abuse that was not escalated to violent acts or homicide. One in seven, lost work. one in eight were forced or forcibly moved out out of fear 86% of harassment victims report their personality was changed as a result and the one that really struck me because it's not a fun thing to talk about but that within the first year after legality and all of this has settled one and four people that have been harassed and or stock will contemplate suicide. When you go into the statistics of what it looks like for issues of harassment and

stalking to escalate, I think the numbers would floor you. But these are just things that because thankfully that wasn't my situation, I was checking off the list. And I don't have this one written down, but if I remember correctly, one in three people that have been harassed and or stalked will suffer from some sort of post-traumatic stress going forward, which takes a lot of therapy and a lot of care to navigate and get back to the healthiest version of you possible. These things don't end with a restraining order. so that's uh that's uh that's tough uh there's not a response to that i don't know what to say

other than thank you thank you for sharing those things who are doing the research and thanks for sharing those with me um they do give a picture a better idea of just how tough it is and like you said one thing that sticks with me in this and it happens all the time but it's like we see a conclusion right with a restraining order yeah yet the it doesn't stop there for the human that's experienced like it's not like that it's not like that brings healing um so i want to talk about healing with you but before we do let's talk let's let's talk as much as you want about your story and then i would love to lean that into anybody that's experiencing this as well to how you've gone about trying to heal and what has you found helpful in that

absolutely um this happened geez i'm 33 i'm all living all of y'all but um hey i'm right behind you um i this was a number of years ago but i remember plain as day it is one of the most vivid memories i was having a new year's eve party and a guy walked in and it immediately was like who is that and it was very clear to see that he could be what you would probably stereotype as like the bad boy if this was just just horribly written romantic comedy and I remember talking that night and there was just an energy about him that I think now I would recognize as run away but at the time it was so captivating because I'm someone that loves to figure people out and the why behind who they are and I could

not read his energy and that captivated me. I remember our first date was one that in hindsight, and this is going to sound so silly, like you almost want to say like, hi, how many red flags do you need before you know, before you get the hint? But the red flags went off immediately that this was going to be something pivotal in my life. Unfortunately, I miss. took that, coming from a place. I know you guys obviously have watched the show, so you know that I talked a little bit about my sister's passing. This was all concurrent to when she was finding out she was pregnant and sick. So I was already in a very fragile position. And I think by opening up that side of what was going on in my life, it almost made it so much easier for him to

step in and need to excuse some of the behaviors that I saw, our relationship could be summed up very quickly in that it was all a lie. Things were fabricated from the beginning, but it was so intense. We would fight. I hate to say it, but have the best sex ever and make up. And it was just this roller coaster of emotions. And it was so addicting at the time to have these, I don't want to say I was addicted to drama, but I think if I'm being honest, I was heightened emotion. Because it felt like something new that I'd never experienced. And like I said, we see it in movies and stuff this like, I'll do anything for you. But when it feels like that from the first date, that's probably not a healthy sign. And it was not until, and I'm so grateful for this moment of

clarity where I ended the relationship. It moved quickly. We got engaged four months later from the day we met four months later. I had a ring on my finger. And when my sister was diagnosed, I remember we were all waiting by the phone. And she obviously had her husband. And my dad was consoling my mom. And I was waiting there alone. And I thought, if something ever happens to me, I would never have his support. It would always be about him in some way. I remember he went out that night because he couldn't handle the emotional. It's just too emotional for him to be there. And I made excuse after excuse. And then that moment really triggered my desire to end the relationship because I knew at the core of a healthy relationship, it should be a little

bit boring. You know without question that that person is there for you. You don't have to question these things that I was questioning every single day. And it was not until after I ended the relationship that things that maybe felt like they were crossing the line escalated almost overnight. And I want to be careful with my words because why I'm sharing my story, I don't want it to scare someone out of like coming forward or or walking away. away from an abusive situation because you have the right to do that and you should do that. But in my particular instance, when he lost control of me, he completely lost control over that filter that he had tried so hard to keep up.

And it escalated in ways that now I feel so disconnected to that it almost doesn't seem real. There was burner phones. There was pictures of me at different places. I lost my job because my co-workers started to feel unsafe because he was taking pictures of me while I was at work, sending them to me, but not from him, right? It's from these crazy numbers that I didn't know. One night in particular where the state got involved, he came into my home and out of fear, I thought, take anything you want, but I'm getting the hell out. so you go in and I'm getting out and he did take items of mine including and this isn't a fun

thing to admit but a laptop that he'd purchased for me as a gift that had a picture that I mean by Instagram standards probably wasn't that embarrassing but when it sent to my father posted as his Facebook photo profile photo that was supposed to be something so intimate between us and used in a way to absolutely shame and embarrass me and had a lot of things taken and used as leverage and if you talk to me if you see me you can have these back that is where legal got involved and there's times where I'll be honest there was physical things that happened that that should never have happened but I'm very thankful it never got to a place of I needed treatment of any sort for any, like, physical injury.

But it's hard to just sum up how crazy it was. But I remember Thanksgiving night, my aunt calling me and saying, I'm so sorry, but we don't feel safe. You know, we had little kids around. We don't feel safe of having you come to Thanksgiving because we don't know if he's tracking you. If he comes here, what's going to happen? And they had to call the police that night because he showed up.

and was lighting, I don't know what you call them, but if you get in a car accent, they're like flare things in your car to like help with traffic, and throwing those at their windows on Thanksgiving night, assuming that I was there. These aren't in any way loving actions to make me lose a career. I had to then move out of the home I was living in because my roommates no longer felt safe and rightfully so. I just want to say, like, there's nothing. loving about these type of actions, but it is very almost easy when you're in the situation to make excuses because your emotions are still involved. I still cared about him. I still also carried a lot of guilt, like, oh, you know, when you're in that deep, you go, maybe I did

do something wrong and deserved this. That was the thing in my head all the time. Maybe I deserved this. Unfortunately, as we went to the legal process, I found out that this was not the first time he had done this. I don't know exactly the extent I could only read the court filings of what he had done to someone in the past. And that is what prompted me to continue, because I will tell you, I did not want to show up that day in court.

To testify against him, it was terrifying. I don't want to put down the legal system, but I didn't feel I was. enough measures were taken to make sure that even my arrival there was safe. And I hope that that has changed in the years since. It was the scariest by far day of my life sitting in court. But I knew that if I wasn't going to take responsibility for what was happening to me, that there is also, in my opinion, responsibility to what could potentially happen to the next person because it was very clear that his patterns were escalating.

And now I'll take a big deep breath because that was a lot. No, I'm just, I'm so, I'm so thankful that you felt comfortable sharing that. And I'm just incredibly sorry for everything that you went through. If there is some, you talked about there being red flags very early on, would you feel comfortable sharing what some of those are just so that other girls listening can look out for them in their own relationships? or in their friend's relationships? And I kind of want to respond to that,

that I want to make sure that this isn't, it's not just females that go through this. It's both. And unfortunately, I think there's even more critique when, or criticism when a man comes forward and says something because of the unfortunate stereotypes we have about masculinity. No, thank you for calling me out on that.

But I think for me, some of the major red flags that I can look back in hindsight, is, one, the constant roller coaster. And it felt like we started on a little kitty roller coaster to one that, you know, is doing loop-de-loops and you're hanging upside down. And I know that seems like kind of a funny analogy, but it just kept escalating. And the things that I would have to excuse is, oh, this was just an argument, kept becoming harder to excuse.

Intense, intense jealousy. that isn't coming from a place of that where it's warranted I think a little jealousy sometimes can even be healthy and a little fun in a relationship if I'm dating someone and the girls looking at him good for me I can I feel you I'm like oh okay you think he's cute good exactly there's a massive difference between that and having um just a pleasant conversation trying to be kind to a member of the opposite sex and immediately seeing a switch where any loving affection has gone out the window and now you are going to be publicly ridiculed and shamed because control is just the major factor when it comes to harassment, stalking and

abuse. And if there's any semblance that they are losing control, things escalate very quickly. And jealousy for me is a major red flag in a relationship. Like Ashley and I talked about, there's a difference between healthy amounts of just normal human jealousy and jealousy that becomes vindictive becomes a reason in their eyes to publicly shame you for things that you truly didn't do. I pride myself on being very, very loyal. So cheating has never been an issue for me yet to be standing at a dinner party. And I think I made reference. I mean, this is how silly it was. there was a guy that was from Russia there and I said, oh, I'm from a town in Alaska

and we have a pretty large Russian population and my town that I'm from means soldier in Russian. That is not a flirtatious comment. In fact, it's a pretty awkward weird dinner party conversation where you're just trying to get to know someone. But that briefest of interaction where the attention wasn't on him became a reason for him to call me a whore

to call me a slut in front of people that I cared about and worked colleagues and to create a scene where I was in the wrong and people would, because of how he portrayed it, would go, oh, I'm so sorry she did that to you. Gosh, you're right. That's terrible. And when you hear other people saying it, you go, man, maybe I really did something wrong. I don't think a Russian to English translation is, you know, going to be on top of someone's Tinder profile as a way to make a move. But when you're in those scenarios, it's the littlest things that can set them off. One huge one was he would get angry at me for, I was his like escape. He could take everything out on me that had absolutely nothing to do with me. If he got a flat tire, I'd be left on a very

busy city interstate because somehow it was my fault that he got a flat tire were driving his car these those are completely irrational thoughts no one can cause you to get a flat tire it's the nail on the road that causes it but when you are constantly put in a position where you are the source of their problems um i hope people stop believing it a lot quicker than i did but you believe somehow gosh I did do this. And I think now people call that gaslighting of where you question your own thought process or even just the reality of the situation around you because someone has absolutely convinced you and you've lost so much trust in yourself and your own ability to make healthy decisions

that they must be correct and you must be absolutely that shit crazy. And everyone else knows that you're bat shit crazy. crazy so they're right and it just continued to escalate from from there so then moving into the healing process how what steps or what does somebody do coming off of this still living within it to heal to recover to start knowing truths about themselves again i think do everything I didn't do. This is not something that I dealt with for quite some time. Like I mentioned earlier, I had a lot of new traumas going on with family matters that

compounded at the time that, quite frankly, that's where my emotional space went to and rightfully so. But there's so many resources that I wish I knew about then, that I know about now. One that I spoke to Ben about and that I would speak to anybody about is the hotline.org. They have just that website alone, whether you call the number or just look at the website, the amount of information and measures that they go to protect the safety of even someone typing in hotline.org, the first thing that pops up is if you feel like your phone could potentially be monitored, here's how to get to this website on your browser safely so no one can look at.

it up. I had never seen things like that, but also providing not only legal support, no matter where they are, but therapy and advice and how, and creating a safety plan for how to get out of that relationship as safely as possible, whether you live with them, have kids, et cetera. I think that is always something I'm going to recommend is the very first step. And the second is do not be afraid to talk to people. have found that our hardest experiences in life either make us more empathetic to others going through it or allow others an opportunity to help us get through it. And when you shut off those conversations that you're, I don't know about you guys, but if I have something weighing

on my heart, if I don't talk about it, it's almost like the worst stomachache. It's just sitting there and festering. And you don't need to do that to yourself. There's so many people that you can reach out to and if you're not in a position where friends and family might not be local to you or or you don't feel comfortable there's complete strangers that have been through this that are willing to rally like hell for you to get out of there safely and so that you can have the therapy that you will need there's no there's such a stigma about getting mental health help but if you live in fear for X amount of months or years that doesn't just go away it's going to take that same amount of time if not more to retrain yourself to not live in fear and to have

a safe unbiased person to talk to about it so I think making sure that you are getting out safely, not making spontaneous decisions that could potentially put you in harm's way, going to the hotline.org, allowing these people to rally for you and make sure that you and potential any children are able to get out of there safely and create a plan. A plan is a huge help because it's not everyone's reality where you can just wake up and say, I'm getting the keys and I'm getting in the car and I'm going. that isn't always the safest bet depending on the type of abuser that is in your life so having a plan and then making yourself and your mental health and recovery a priority through conversation with

others through conversations with therapists and to not be afraid i mean this conversation i can't tell you i was sweating bullets to have it um but to not be afraid of maybe the one or two potential criticisms that can come from it because you are so worthy of being heard and your your words could help somebody else what a fantastic articulate advocate you are wow i don't know i'm a rambler so i don't know how articulate i was but oh incredibly alice i uh i don't want to understate just how like how great you've been in the last 48 hours for others including this moment including me this isn't about me I know that but like in times of like not like feeling like I'm spinning not knowing how this is happening and not knowing where to go with it and not knowing

how to how to process it you've been awesome and you're going to make me cry now and I got through that whole thing without crying. I, you know, we, we come on this thing and, like, it's not worth, it's, it's not worth any time or effort to do this and know that, like, other people are going to experience pain because of the hour and a half that we take a week to just, like, talk about a crazy show. And every once in a while, like, it hits and it hits hard and you realize that, like, your words really do matter. And I want to thank you for.

being in this with me and also encouraging me yet keeping me knowing what I did wrong and how hard it was for me to hear that yet how helpful it's been and thank you for coming on like I don't want to underestimate just how much it took for you to even like show up today and to talk to us and to sit in this and be here and I guarantee you this there's somebody outside of myself even that myself included that will hear you talk today and their life will be changed forever for the better

and like that is a weight that I want you to know and I want you to carry and I want you to realize because I can't imagine anything anything better to spend our time doing than that and so Elise thank you for coming on

thank you for being here this has been great I appreciate you Elise your approach in the situation has been so admirable you've been honest but kind you say hey guys you messed up you hurt me and other

here's what you went wrong and I just really appreciate it. I appreciate that. May I add something now that you said that? I think because both of your public figures, right? I just went back, I took my white dress and went back to my life as normal.

But we and I said this to Ben yesterday when I was a little bit concerned for maybe where his emotional space was is that I would just encourage people this kind of a two-point thing that, first of all, be careful when you are critiquing others, that you, I'm treading carefully because Ben, what you said was not okay, but you didn't do it with negative intent, and that was clear to me from the beginning, and just be a little.

little slower people to jump know and be able to differentiate if you are speaking from a place of trauma if you're speaking from a place of emotion take a beat before having that conversation with with someone so that you can come to them from a place of love and with your ears open and not attacking them for something that they might not just understand yet and that really extends to social media that people giving commentary, and I told Ben, I won't come on here and give commentary about the topic because I don't think commentary on someone's trauma is any of our rights. That person can speak for themselves and them alone because they're the only ones that know the depth of what's going on. And I've read comments online directed towards Ben,

directed towards someone that I consider a friend from my time on the show. And it terrifies me not only for that person's mental well-being, but also for how paralyzing, if you can stop before you comment and think, is this helpful? Because my God, if my 23-year-old self had read these comments that are directed towards someone who rightfully made steps to feel safe, how paralyzing that would have been for me in seeking that same help. Seeing that amount of criticism and shame and speculation is not acceptable

because you're not in the situation. These are characters that you see on TV and know we're not actors, but you see such a small fraction of our lives that you do not get to pass judgment on what length someone needs to go to feel safe because we all have that right. And your comments, not you guys specifically, obviously, but people that are commenting these things, I'm just terrified for someone reading it, like I said, my 23-year-old self would never have sought help if I thought I would get a fraction of the criticism that I'm seeing online. It's disgusting. Well, in there, Elise, thank you. If you don't mind, we have a tradition that we're going to keep two. So follow our lead.

This has been an almost famous podcast. It's a special podcast. I don't know if I've enjoyed sitting in it. I've, I'm glad I sat in it. I'll say that. But with that, I've been Ben. I've been Ashley. And I've been a snotty, Elise.

A snotty, Elise, an amazing, Elise. Thank you. We'll talk to you guys Monday. Bye. Ashley I, Almost Famous Podcasts on IHeartRadio or subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. Hi, my name is Enya Yumanzoor. And I'm Drew Phillips. And we run a podcast called Emergency Intercom.

If you're a crime junkie and you love crimes, we're not the podcast for you. But if you have unmedicated ADHD... Oh my God, perfect. And want to hear people with mental illness, psychobabble. Yes, yes. Then Emergency Intercom is the podcast for you. Open your free IHeartRadio app. Search Emergency Intercom and listen now.

Hi, I'm Jennifer Lopez and in the new season of the Over Comfort Podcast, I'm even more honest, more vulnerable, and more real than ever. Am I ready to enter this new part of my life? Like, am I ready to be in a relationship? Am I ready to have kids and to really just devote myself and my time? Join me for conversations about healing and growth, all from one of my favorite spaces, The Kitchen. Listen to the new season of the Overcombered podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

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