The Ben and Ashley I Almost Famous Podcast - Almost Famous: A Time to Listen

Episode Date: February 16, 2021

Award winning producer, bestselling author and renowned motivational speaker DeVon Franklin joins Ben and Ashley for an honest and important conversation about race. We discuss the recent controversy surrounding The Bachelor franchise and what steps can be taken to improve and grow. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Everyone thinks they'd never join a cult. But it happens all the time to people just like you. And people just like us. I'm Lola Blanc. And I'm Megan Elizabeth. We're the host of Trust Me, a podcast about cults, manipulation, and the psychology of belief. Each week we talk to fellow survivors, former believers, and experts to understand why

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This is the Ben and Ashley I, almost famous podcast with IHeartRadio. This is another almost famous special episode. Obviously, there's been a lot that's gone on in Bachelor Nation over the last week. We do break down this show on this podcast, and so it's important for us to talk about it. Today we're bringing in somebody who I know Ashley you've been a fan of for a while. His wife is a fan of the show. It's Megan Good. And how did you come across Devon or do you want to tell him in person? I don't tell him in person. Okay. Well, Devon Franklin's going to be our guest today. If you don't know of Devon, he, I mean, his resume is incredible. He's an award-winning producer, New York Times bestselling author, which I know how hard that is to be. come and it's not easy i am not one of those yet um and a renowned motivational speaker uh he has

made this commitment and in his words in his bio he says he's made a commitment to inspire people around the world through entertainment uh he is definitely a force in in media uh he is an inspiration to many uh i'm really pumped to talk to today because he's one of those people uh again that like i never thought i'd have the opportunity to talk to uh and if you sit down in a room with him i just imagine the wisdom, the insight, the things that he could share with anybody. I'm sure people pay a lot of money to hear him speak, and we're lucky enough to have him on the podcast today to speak on this topic and to educate us all, to share with us all, his thoughts. Now, before we get going, you know, obviously after the interview with Rachel Lindsay, Chris Harrison has now

came out with a few apologies. I'm going to read a paraphrase version here for everybody. just because they are long, but we've cut them down with the meat of what's going on. I'm going to read those to you now. This is from Chris Harrison. To my Bachelor Nation family, I will always own a mistake when I make one. So I'm here to extend a sincere apology. Yesterday, I took a stance on topics which I should have been better informed. What I now realize I have done is cause harm by wrongly speaking in a manner that perpetuates

racism. And for that, I am deeply sorry. I promise to do better. then just a few days later maybe a day i don't know the exact timeline uh chris came out with the second apology uh this one is a little longer so bear with me uh he says and i quote i've spent the last few days listening to the pain my words have caused and i am deeply remorseful my ignorance did damage to my friends colleagues and strangers alike i have no one to blame but myself for what I said and the way I spoke.

I set standards for myself and have not met them. I feel that with every fiber of my being now, I feel that with every fiber of my being. Now, just as I taught my children to stand up and own their actions, I will do the same. By excusing historical racism, I defended it. I invoked the term woke police, which is unacceptable. I am ashamed over how uninformed I was, I was so wrong.

To the black community, to the B-I-P-O-C community, I am so sorry. My words were harmful. I am listening and I truly apologize for my ignorance and any pain it caused you. I want to give my heartfelt thanks to the people from these communities who have had enlightening conversations with over the past few days. and I am so grateful to those who have reached out to help me on my path to anti-racism. This historic season of The Bachelor should not be marred or overshadowed by the mistake or diminished by my actions. To that end, I have consulted with Warner Brothers and ABC and will be stepping aside for a period of time and will not join the After the Final Rose special.

I'm dedicated to getting educated on more profound and productive level than ever before. I want to ensure our cast and crew members to my family, colleagues, and our fans. This is not just a moment, but a commitment to much greater understanding that I will actively make every day. From here, I can only try to evolve and be a better man. And I am humble myself before all of you. I hope I will again live up to the expectations you all rightfully have for me and the expectations I have for myself. So following, you know, we just read Chris Harrison's apology, and I want to pause here and say that we're having this conversation today, based on the interview that Rachel Lindsay held with Chris Harrison on Extra. Extra is a show that Rachel Lindsay hosts. Now, Rachel Lindsay has continued to use her platform to be bold, to be outspoken, and to continue these conversations that we've needed to have and that we have continued to have. for a long time. Now, you know, people wiser than me have used the phrase, we need to meet

the moment. And we do. We also need to follow this moment to continue to educate, to continue to listen, and to continue to get better from here and out. But we're here today discussing this because of the work that Rachel Lindsay did on Extra in her interview with Chris Harrison. I think it's important that we're having this conversation now. After I've had the past few days to reflect. Jared and I have talked about race in this franchise and gone through so many emotions the past couple of days. We listened to the interview with Chris and Rachel multiple times and we were extremely disappointed. We put out a statement on Friday, which are words that I still stand by. We spent the entire weekend just talking about everything. We listened to

Rachel's podcast. I'm higher learning. We read Charlene's article, which I strongly suggest you guys read it's at all the pretty pandas.com. I agree with so much that she says in there. She's so amazingly articulate every time something like this comes up. And it's just, you know, it's disappointing. It's difficult. We're going to talk all about it with Devon and get into the interview itself, race issues within the franchise and the future of both the franchise and Chris, all of it.

so coming off of this apology obviously the dynamic within the bachelor world and bachelor nation has changed we're here to talk about it today we're here to speak on it and ashley uh i know you're a fan of devon so you want to bring them in imagine that you're on an airplane and all of a sudden you hear this Attention passengers. The pilot is having an emergency, and we need someone, anyone, to land this plane. Think you could do it? It turns out that nearly 50% of men think that they could land the plane with the help of air traffic control. And they're saying like, okay, pull this, do this, pull that, turn this. It's just... I can do it in my eyes closed. I'm Mani. I'm Noah. This is Devon.

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Hi, my name is Enya Humanzor. And I'm Drew Phillips. And we run a podcast. called Emergency Intercom. If you're a crime junkie and you love crimes, we're not the podcast for you. But if you have unmedicated ADHD... Oh my God, perfect. And want to hear people with mental illness, psychobabble.

Yes, yes. Then Emergency Intercom is the podcast for you. Open your free IHeartRadio app. Search Emergency Intercom and listen now. Hey, sis. What if I could promise you you never had to listen to a condescending finance bro. Tell you how to manage your money again. Welcome to Brown Ambition. This is the hard part when you pay down those credit cards. If you haven't gotten to the bottom of why you were racking up credit

or turning to credit cards, you may just recreate the same problem a year from now. When you do feel like you are bleeding from these high interest rates, I would start shopping for a debt consolidation loan, starting with your local credit union, shopping around online, looking for some online lenders because they tend to have fewer fees and be more affordable. Listen, I am not here. to judge. It is so expensive in these streets. I 100% can see how in just a few months you can have this much credit card debt when it weighs on you. It's really easy to just like stick your head in the sand. It's nice and dark in the sand. Even if it's scary, it's not going to go away just because you're avoiding it. And in fact, it may get even worse. For more judgment-free money

advice, listen to Brown Ambition on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Hello, it's Honey German And my podcast Grasas Come Again is back This season we're going even deeper Into the world of music and entertainment With raw and honest conversations

With some of your favorite Latin artists and celebrities You didn't have to audition? No, I didn't audition. I haven't audition in like over 25 years. Oh, wow. That's a real G-talk right there. Oh, yeah. We've got some of the biggest actors,

musicians, content creators, and culture shifters sharing their real stories of failure and success. You were destined to be a start. We talk all about what's viral and trending with a little bit of chisement, a lot of laughs, and those amazing vibras you've come to expect. And of course, we'll explore deeper topics

dealing with identity, struggles, and all the issues affecting our Latin community. You feel like you get a little whitewash because you have to do the code switching? I won't say whitewash because at the end of the day, you know, I'm me. But the whole pretending and coat, you know, it takes a toll on you. Listen to the new season of Grasas has come again as part of My Cultura Podcast Network

on the IHart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. The Super Secret Bestie Club podcast season four is here. And we're locked in. That means more juicy chisement. Terrible love advice. Evil spells to cast on your ex.

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special guests with us, our new super secret bestie is the diva of the people. The diva of the people. I'm just like text your ex. My theory is that if you need to figure out that the stove is hot, go and touch it. Go and figure it out for yourself. Okay. That's us. That's us.

My name is Curley. And I'm Maya. In each episode, we'll talk about love, friendship, heartbreak, men, and of course, our favorite secrets. Listen to the Super Secret Bestie Club as a part of the Marco Tura podcast network available on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. All right, guys, we have, in my opinion, somebody who is perfect for navigating us through this issue. His name is Devon Franklin. I'm a fan.

I read his book The Wait, and it was very inspiring. I actually found it on Tanya Radd's desk at the IHeart station. And I go, what's this about? She told me how it was just about, well, it's a little unrelated right now, but just romance and how it's worth the weight when it comes to that department. And Devon, just a little background. About six months after I read your book, I was engaged and I was single when I read it. Wow.

Yeah, but for our audience, thank you. We are talking to him today about, you know, this whole Chris Harrison conversation and mistakes that we and others have made in the past. And Devon, in my opinion, is perfect for this because he's a multi, he's like really a mogul when it comes to media. He's an award-winning producer. He's a New York Times bestseller. He's a renowned. He's a renowned. He's a renowned. He's a motivational speaker. He's made a commitment to inspire people around the world through entertainment. And I can go through his list of his resume right now. And it's very impressive. He's grossed over $1.7 million at the box office through some of his movies like The Star and Miracles from Heaven. And just a little fun note, he's also married to Megan Good, who is one of the prettiest actresses

out there. So thanks for coming on, Devon. Oh, no problem. No problem. It's honor to be here. Great to be with you both. Hey, Devon, I didn't realize this, but now it's hitting me. I just came out in my very first book about two weeks ago. And I have a chapter in there about Tanya, rad. And she speaks in that chapter. The whole chapter is on singleness. But she speaks in that chapter about a book that she read that inspired her, made her feel less alone and more loved. And now I'm putting two together. That was your book, and I wrote about it without knowing whose book it was. So, hey, that's pretty good stuff right there, man.

That's crazy. That's crazy. It's amazing. Yeah, she's incredible, and that's my sister. And it's amazing just to see, you know, the impact of the weight and just, you know, look, we wrote it from our experience, and it's a blessing that's touched so many people, especially her and you all. So it's an honor to be with you for show.

And I think that's probably where I want, I mean, where it would be best to start here. So you do a lot of stuff. And I think this would be, you know, you're all of the place. What you've touched has been successful. You've tasted success. I'm sure within that you've tasted some things that haven't been successful. Maybe to give a perspective of where you come from when you intern into these things, why do you do you do? Yeah, you know, great question.

Why I do what I do is, you know, goes back to the beginning. I'm the middle child of three boys. And when I was nine years old, my father, up into that point, you know, until me being nine, he was an alcoholic and he was in the house pretty much throughout my whole life. And then when I was nine, he died of a heart attack when he was 36. And so he left my, yeah, he left me and my brothers who raised by my mother and by my grandmother, my grandmother's sisters. And so that period of time was very difficult. And what really got me through, because we didn't have money for, you know, for therapy. I mean, you know, we were on welfare. I mean, it was a very difficult moment of time.

and it was watching entertainment and going to church that really helped me get through. And movies like Back to the Future and Rocky and the colored purple and TV shows like a different world. I mean, those shows just blew my mind and really helped me navigate this period of time. And so I figured, you know, if I can use the combination of what I learned in church, when I'm learning in church and entertainment to help improve people's lives, that was really the why, because I know what it's like to be by yourself. I know what it's like to go through tragic moments. I know what it's like to feel like you're all alone.

And I really feel like people come to entertainment as to escape their reality. And so what better way to help them in reality than to give them something during that escape worthwhile? So that's really why I do what I do. So you, I believe, are a Bachelor fan or you're at least familiar enough with the franchise for this conversation? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Megan is, uh, she's been a, uh, she's been a member of Bachelor Nation longer than me. Oh, amazing.

She got me watching, yeah, a couple of seasons ago. Oh, that's so exciting and cool for me to hear. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So I think I started watching, um, it had to be at least three or four seasons ago. And so yeah, now I'm just totally hooked. So we just go from Bachelor, Bachelorette, Bachelor in Paradise. The whole is all year, you know, so I've been watching. I watch the whole Bachelorette with Claire. and then Tayshah, excuse me, and then obviously be watching with Matt James every week and all of it. So, yeah, I'm pretty up to speed with what's going on

and I'm waiting week to week to see the news. So I'm very, very familiar with the situation, the circumstances, and all that has been going on. Okay. Do you have any initial thoughts before we get into specific questions? I got a lot of thoughts. So I'm going to let you just get into the questions so that way we can just hit everything you want to get.

I got a lot of thoughts. All righty. Well, you came on a day because you are familiar with the situation. Obviously, just if anybody's out there listening who doesn't know what's going on, I mean, this last week, early on, Rachel Lindsay, who hosts for Extra, didn't interview with Chris Harrison. Conversations came up about a contestant on the show. Her name is Rachel.

There are some pictures that were shown of her at an antebellum-themed party. Rachel asked Chris for his response And I don't even know if it's unless we play the interview I can't even really summarize his response But in short the response gained a lot of attention And the attention wasn't necessarily positive for Chris And at this point in time Chris has announced That he is stepping away temporarily at this point from the show

And so if you haven't seen the interview I just pause this you know this conversation here Go watch that it's going to give you more perspective into what we talk about and how we break down and try to figure out what's going on with everything with Devon. Devon, to dig in here, you know, I'm coming into this today and I've prayed through this. I told Ashley and Amy, I was going to take an hour before this conversation and pray through it. It always, I don't know, helps at some level get perspective. I think there's one thing. I was just talking to my fiancé upstairs before I came down. I said, I kind of want to start this by

telling you that it's it's felt heavy i think for everybody um since that interview right rachel has has uh has has felt heavy i'm sure chris uh you know feels heavy i was able to speak with him for for a while last night before this interview um it feels really heavy and so i want to start by saying when you're in the midst of a heaviness right i was reading uh Morgan harper nichols this morning who uh i'm having on my show tomorrow night um and she talks about when you're in a season of heaviness, like it's hard to see the joy beyond it. It's hard to see any, any light beyond anything good coming from it. So when we're in seasons of heaviness, like a lot of people are feeling in this situation and others, what do you always recommend doing? Don't resist it.

You know, so often we want to feel good. And there's nothing wrong with that, that we all want it. But when these moments happen, they're happening for a reason. If we look at life as a mirror, Sometimes some things get reflected that we wish we didn't see, but they're there. And when we try to push and just get to the good time, we may miss the power and the purpose of the pain. So in this heaviness and rightfully so, I would encourage anyone just not to not to rush through it, to evaluate it, to understand this two will pass. You know, this is a season. It's not going to be this way forever. But what do I need to know in this season? and how can the heaviness actually be a helper to me?

Because sometimes when we have that heaviness, that emotional weight, that's sometimes when we get our greatest revelations, when we get our greatest breakthroughs, when we get to begin to see, okay, this is where I'm supposed to go, this is what I'm supposed to do. I realize, oh, there's some things about me. I want to change. Seasons of heaviness can come with some of the greatest help we get.

So I would just encourage anyone not to encourage yourself, especially don't rush through it, sit through it, see what's there for you, and know that eventually it will pass. You bring up something about like sitting through it and like really reflecting. And I know that that's something that Ben and I feel is very important in moments like this. We are, I don't want to say pressured, but like really encouraged to speak out immediately and like to react more than to reflect in moments like this. How do you feel about that culture that we're living in where things need to seem to be immediate? it. So, so it's, there's a, there's a, a nuance and it really depends on the circumstances

situation. So if you have nothing to do with the situation, right, then I do think, all right, let me take a minute and evaluate what's going on and then I'll speak when I feel like I feel strong enough to speak if there's no real other reason why I should be speaking. If I'm not the person that's a part of it. In this situation, you know, I know we're going to get into it. you know, there, there is one party that I argue did not speak up soon enough because in speaking up sooner, some of what we all now are experiencing could have been mitigated. And because there wasn't a voice, you know, there's a, there's this, not a scripture, it's actually a saying that says nature abhors a vacuum. So wherever there's a vacuum, nature wants to fill it. As it relates to

the allegations and what was what we've been you know what has just recently happened there was a vacuum because nobody was addressing it and the party who party who was about didn't say anything for you know six seven weeks so what happens is in that vacuum we find the chris harrison situation right so so in this is in this scenario i do think that you have to evaluate where you are in the situation that's being asked to be spoken about, and if you are one of the parties that actually can add light and add clarity to give emphasis to what really did or didn't happen, I think that that probably makes that emphasis and that communication more of priority. Whereas if you are just a bystander, you're just, hey, commenting, then sometimes it's

better to reserve judgment before you know all of the facts. And then once you know the facts and how you feel about those facts, then speaking from an educated point of view is always, in my and the best place to speak from. So to give clarity, what we're talking about is, I mean, Rachel, Kirkanaugh, I think that's how you say her last name, it's close enough, and I think it's like Rachel K, let's say that. Rachel K. Rachel K.

There's a lot of Rachel's in here, so you need to be clear. Rachel K had some allegations out against her for, I think it was six weeks, right? These things were swirling. She knew of them. It wasn't kind of, and it wasn't lost upon her. I know she knew of them. And nothing was said, right? Nothing was said. And so Chris Harrison ended up needing or being questioned and asked to speak up on her part. So if we go back to the beginning, though, if I'm hearing it right, what you're saying is, Rachel should have, Rachel Kay should have said something. She should have responded to this if she, if she could have.

Sure. So, so I'm going to say two things. I'm going to address Rachel Kay in a minute. You all know much more about the ends and of the Bachelor world in production than I do. One of the many hats that I wear is I'm a producer. So I produce, you know, many films. And before I was a producer, I was an executive for Sony Pictures Entertainment. And I've done, you know, a lot of movies. So I'm very familiar with production. In my experience and in my opinion,

the Bachelor team, whoever that is, if that's ABC or the Bachelor producers, should have been the first ones to say, there's smoke here we need to deal with this and she's a contestant on a show and she's in a big machine. I'm not going to excuse her. I have some points later which we'll get to but like when it all started to smoke to me the show should have said wait we've got to address this now

and put this to bed instead of hoping seemingly hoping that it would just kind of go away and the chatter online would die because what that did was if she was not approached by the show and to say, hey, this is a problem, you need to address it. Then if she was left to her own devices, I can imagine the fear that she may have had needing to address something that when she ultimately made her statement that she was completely ashamed of and mortified but still had to own up to. But owning up to those type of things does take courage and it also takes support.

Right. So yes, I do think that Rachel should have spoken up way sooner, but I also wonder where was ABC and the Bachelor team in this process and how effective were they initially when they saw this in trying to, to, you know, bring this to a to a head quickly. It's an interesting statement. And I want to dig into that for a second because it's something that hasn't gotten talked about enough. From your, I mean, I'm not a producer. I've never produced a show. I've been on a reality television show. I would never claim that my experience or my knowledge of production is vast. So you have been behind the scenes. If there anything inside of you that could all explain why ABC has a contest on their show and there's people hurt by the things that they're hearing, right?

The black community, the people of color are being hurt by the things that they're hearing and seeing from what is, gone on in the past. ABC knows of this yet nothing is said for weeks and so people not only is Rachel K hurting and probably feeling I'm imagining based on her statement now really ashamed really hurt really confused yet the people that you know she's that have brought out the allegations are hurting and ABC sitting there saying nothing why would that be is there any explanation for you know you know listen it's very hard without being in those rooms to to speak accurately on what is or what is it.

You know, my opinion and my assessment of the situation may have been. They probably talked about it. They probably felt like, you know, hey, let's just, let's see how this all kind of plays itself out. You know, let's monitor the chatter. And then it was a situation because Matt James even, I think, did an interview where the question was brought up. And he kind of had to, you know, he kind of had it. He was put in a situation, which I think was unfair. to put him in that situation to defend something that he really has nothing about.

He didn't know anything about the background of these women before getting on the show. He just went on the show and let his heart be his guide. And then all of a sudden this stuff started happening. So I would believe that in a situation like this, the network may have felt like, you know what? Maybe we can just ride this out. Maybe we don't need to actually, you know, deal with it. Because maybe if we deal with it, maybe it'll make it bigger. That may, that would be my thought.

Again, without being in those rooms, it's really hard to say. Okay. Because I do think, I do think that when you look at, and, you know, this is probably getting a little ahead of where we want to be, but I'll say this now since we're talking about the network. This, the Bachelor franchise, and I don't have to tell you all, because you all are a part of it, has had a really uncomfortable dance with race from the beginning. And because in my experience with watching the show and just what I've known about, you know, the franchise for years, even before I was watching it, that that discomfort, you know, it doesn't go away. And just by saying, oh, we've chosen the first black male bachelor, you know, the black bachelor, then, okay, we're doing it. It's like, no, there's so much that goes along with that. And I do think that this situation, it's just a symptom of the larger problem that the franchise has not yet taken the time to really deal with effectively.

You know, and so when this happens, it's like, oh, wow, we can't believe this happened. But it's like, how can we not know this wasn't going to happen? What Rachel Kay has now admitted that she was a part of, those things are hurtful. And we're in a time now where years ago, it could have just gone away, but now, you know, race and culture and, and who we are, it should have always been this way. But even now, you can't just, those things don't get a blind eye. So I think that because in my experience, in my opinion, the franchise has turned a blind eye too many times, that this is a symptom of a problem that still needs significant care. It needs significant instruction. on really how to reconcile, you know, this franchise that is beloved around the world as it relates to race specifically in this country. There's so much in that moment that you just said there that I want to address, but I'll go like with little parts right now.

Okay, so I actually, I reached out to some of the women of color from this season. And one of the women said that they feel like this season has been one step forward. forward two steps back and I asked her I go so other than this extra interview what have you guys felt has been a step back and she sent me if you go to bachelor data on Instagram they do graphs of screen time and stuff we actually had the creator of this account on and it shows that even though there are more women of color than ever on the season they're still getting less screen time and she also says that that that their love stories were barely featured. She said that they chose to feature white women in petty drama instead when they didn't have to. She said, we had an amazing cast of women of color and the audience didn't get to know them.

So I would say that that's one of the root issues here in the franchise. Wow. Wow. Well, you're hitting the nail on the head. I mean, you know, again, I'm watching the show And I'm just wondering, you know, no disrespect to Victoria. And I understand, you know, all the, you know, value she brought. But I'm like, yo, okay, we get it, right? Yeah. We get it.

We understand it. The queen has spoken. But now you are really, you know, after, you know, I think episode or two before she finally was eliminated, like you're given all this energy and drama to this at the expense of these other women that really deserve time. So this is an interesting statistic. I wasn't aware of it, but it doesn't surprise me. It's, you know, it's funny.

The whole time, I was able to be on set this year. And there's this girl named Maggie, who's an incredible story. And the whole time I was always hinting on this podcast, because I did get to meet her. I was like, I cannot wait for her story to be shared. Like, I cannot wait for her victories in life and her journey in life and her story to be shared. It was never shared. And I felt, you know, and, and, and, now it kind of like everything should be uncovered at this point. The frustration I think that

we were all experiencing and those of us who knew the girls behind the scenes a little bit were saying was these stories aren't being shared. It's frustrating. We need to share them because there's some incredible people here and instead like you said, hey, this is not a podcast about Victoria or the drama but it is getting overshadowed. Their stories are being overshadowed. Their stories are being covered up this season didn't need to go this way and i think that's just a critique um that was you know unsolicited on my part of hey this season had a lot of potential it felt very far short and i think i'm hoping now uh ABC sees that like i'm hoping that they see that hey they just missed a mark here they had a great opportunity and it did fall short well speaking of falling short you know

we are here to discuss um chris and rachel lindsay's interview uh and to start it uh You've watched it, correct? I did. Okay. Where did Chris go wrong? Loaded question, sorry. It's okay. It's okay.

Listen, I don't know Chris Harrison personally. From everything I can tell from watching the show, you know, he seems to be a very good dude, very upstanding. Like, you know, I have great respect for him, even for someone I have not met. Here's where he went wrong. You know, one of the other things that I have, I do, you know, I've been, you know, in entertainment since I was 18 years old. So, you know, I've had to navigate entertainment, you know, as, as a black man from the beginning. And most recently, I serve as a governor for the Academy of Motion Pictures, Arts and Sciences and have done a lot of work around diversity. Here is one of the biggest fatal flaws, I believe, of the Chris Harrison interview. you. We are at a time where we have to, and this is going to be, this is a hard thing to do, but before you speak on race, especially if you're white, you first have to ask yourself, well, what is my unconscious bias here? And let me be very careful of not going on and talking about

something that I hadn't really thought about how the other side feels first. There were there were a number of things I think Chris could have done better. You know, the first thing is limited to what he knew. I think the commentary about the woke police and the commentary about, you know, oh, well, when she did that three years ago, you know, it was more, like those are those, those Those comments were like, no, no, no, Chris, you were, Chris, we were with you when you said you can only speak from where you can, what you know. But then when you started to do that, what happened is he took black people's pain and how we feel about how, you know, white people have trivialized our pain. You know, when you look at those antebellum parties, it's just a trivialization of black pain.

It's making fun of it. Hey, we're going to make fun of what you all actually had to go through for our party, right? Like, and that's painful. And it was never in fashion then. It's not in fashion now. And so I think that to speak in a way that was so callous because of his unconscious bias, he did not have an intent to hurt. I don't believe. I do not believe that Chris Harrison had malice in his heart.

Yet this is one of the challenges that we face when we deal with where we are today. And when we talk about white people talking about, you know, race, one of the things I consistently butt up against is especially when someone, you know, who's white identifies as liberal, sometimes they're one of, they're some of the most difficult people to, to help see this issue. Because they kind of come from it saying, oh, no, I'm not like those people. I'm not racist. You know, I'm not prejudiced. I'm for everybody. But as a man, right, I can do my best to be sensitive to women's issues, but I also have to learn to listen because I'm not a woman. And there are some things that women go through that I don't have any business speaking on.

I just have to listen. And I think too often when it comes to race, to me and my experience, white men especially feel too comfortable saying, oh, no, this is five, we're past this, we're good. You, you, when you, when we are the ones from those people of color who have experienced the pain, you can't tell us it's time to heal. That healing takes place when it takes place. So I think Chris went, went wrong, in my opinion, when he really contextualized this whole thing as the woke police. And Rachel is an adult, not holding her accountable. Meaning, listen, if he knew what he knew to say, listen, I know what I know, she needs to speak for herself. And my hope is once she speaks for herself, it will add clarity to her actions.

We as the Bachelor, you know, Nation, Bachelor team, we are for everybody. We understand the sensitivity out there. We know people are hurting by this. And we are getting to the bottom of it and she will be making a statement soon soon. If it ended there, it would have addressed what was going on. It would have taken leadership. It would have shown. It would have showed which side the production and the team was really on. But I think when he started to veer into his own point of view about the woke police and about, oh, you know, just forgive her. You know, it's like she's fine. It's like, no, no, no, no. That's when it goes too far. And as somebody who is a fan of Chris Harrison, I say all of these things in love. Because if, you know,

if we can't teach each other in moments like this, if we can't have civil conversations, then we can never make progress. So I don't say any of these things to disparage him, but I say these things to say, hey, here's really where it went wrong. So do you feel like people who have said things like Chris did in this interview or gone to parties like Rachel has? Are they racist or are they ignorant in your opinion?

Well, listen, I am not going to make a judgment about who someone, is. In a lot of ignorance, there are a lot of racist things done. So I would go as far as to say someone going to an antebellum party in their ignorance is committing and participating in a racist event. And given the time that we are in, it's really hard for me to believe that someone who is an adult is not aware of the history of the antebellum. and the history of these parties and the understanding that they are derogatory in nature, that does not make them, this is me speaking, because other black people and other folks may feel totally different. I don't deem that person a racist because I don't know that person. And I

resist the temptation to judge anyone in their character until I don't know them. So I can talk about the action. It's a racist action. It's a racist event. And sometimes that ignorance, definitely leads us, it leads, you know, in those situations to participate in things that otherwise they shouldn't have participated in. So again, I don't know Rachel Kay at all. So I am definitely not calling her racist by any stretch of the imagination. However, in her ignorance, she absolutely participated in a racist event. So for you personally, because you can speak on this and Ashley and I cannot. But you see this event, right? And I was unfamiliar with this. these kind of events until recently.

They became a more apparent to me that it is, and I think Chris really didn't hit this well, but I think he was trying to is like, these are not an uncommon party at Southern universities. These are not things, like I should have known that these parties existed. And I think universities are now stepping in and stopping them, but these have been going on for a long time.

And they're not okay. But a lot of people participated in them, maybe not knowing the significance or the meaning to them. So now we have the Rachel K scenario. We have these pictures coming out. She's now responded. Well, now that we've brought up Rachel's apology, I do want to read what we think is some of the most important bullet points,

not the entire apology. If you do want to read her entire apology, you can see it on her Instagram. She says, I was ignorant, but my ignorance was racist. I am sorry to the communities and individuals. that my actions harmed and offended. I am ashamed about my lack of education, but it is no one's responsibility to educate me. She says, she will continue to learn how to be anti-racist and that it is important to speak up in the moment and not after you're called out. I deserve to be held accountable,

she says, for her actions. I will never grow unless I recognize what I have done is wrong. I don't think one apology means that I deserve your forgiveness, but rather I hope that I can earn your forgiveness through my future actions. What is the appropriate response back to her? As she's, I'm imagining, and we're putting words in her mouth, but just from her statement that we read, I'm sure she was scared, hurting, learning a ton, confused maybe. I don't know, all those things that you imagine that you get when chaos is around you and you're like learning a bunch at one time and everything the world's kind of falling down

around you, what then is the response to her as she admits, or at least as far as we know have said, hey, I'm taking this opportunity to learn and understand just how painful the decisions I made in my past are. And where do we go with her and mine? And so when you say what is the response, like tell me for the response from who? You know, like what, you say what is the response? Like, you know, how should the comment be handled? Give me some more comments in terms of what you. Yeah, so I mean, I think when I say that I'm meaning right now, it's loud. On social media especially, it's very loud.

And I would imagine that's coming from people of all different races. But I think when it comes to people of color, you can speak to the response to the response to maybe you want to see or that you feel would be most healthy and helpful. That would be, I think, the point of way to confirm it. Right, but see, but here's the truth. Again, how much background checks did you've got to go through before you get on the show? Plenty. Yeah, plenty.

Yeah. Okay, okay, okay. So if she, again, let's just go through this for a minute. If she saw, oh, Matt James, I'm going to, he looks great. I want to, you know, he could be my husband. I'm going to go ahead and apply for the bachelor. I'm going to go through the process. They're going to go through my whole back.

They're going to come, they come back to me and say, you are clear. We welcome to the show. We want to have you. So she's like, great. You know what? Whatever she, whatever a men she may have made personally for those things, we don't know, right? Because the show wasn't really asking that. She went through the process. So here's the, here's the crazy part. So if she went through the background check and she went through everything and then now as a part of the show, these things come out. Let's just pause for a minute. Again, this is why I go back to when we talk about the Chris Harrison and we talk about the show, there has to be a greater sensitivity to these things when these things are checked out because if I'm Rachel, like, I think the response to Rachel is, thank you, you know, glad for your sensitivity. And for me, it's like she just has to continue with the show. Let Matt decide at the end of the day if she is the right fit for him or not and if he feels

good about her apology or not, but where the show failed was let it get this far. Why was this not caught in the background check? And if it was caught, why was a blind eye turned? That's where it starts because if you, for her, I'm just again, I'm not excusing her actions. She needs to be held accountable. I'm so, I thought her statement felt very heartfelt. And here's what I know. She will continue to do this work for the rest of her life. And she seems very serious about that. And when I say do this work, meaning like, okay, you know what, I'm not going to be the person that contributes to racist activity.

I do want to be the person that is positive and that does bring people together and that learns and listens. She seemingly from that statement seems like that's who she wants to be. And no matter what, now that this show is going to live with her for the rest of her life, she's going to be forced to deal with race, no matter if she likes it or not, to some degree for the rest of her. of her life. So that's what's going to happen with her. But why did it get here? The fact that it got here is not her fault. That's the part that I think we have to look at. And what I would, I think when we

talk about what's happening online, it's very easy again to tear somebody down. You know, it's easy to tear her down. It's easy to tear Chris down. I understand that. But neither of them operate in a vacuum. And so when we talk about what's happening in of this universe called the Bachelor, there's a larger thing that needs to be addressed on. How do we deal with these issues once and for all? And again, I don't know anybody involved with the show. I had a couple meetings with Rob Mills, you know, just on a general, you know, two years ago. He's cool dude. I think he's a great guy. Again, I don't know him personally, but we, you know, we had a great meeting. So I don't really know how it all works is my point.

But these are the things that need to be talked about. So the response to me to Rachel is, is thank you for your statement and let's see how you fare on the rest of the show. The response to me to the bachelor operation is, hold up. Something has got to be done. You cannot take this and sweep this under the rug. What is going on? Why does there seem to be an insensitivity? Why do you know, even with Matt James, when Matt James is telling, again, this is just my two cents.

I don't even know how listening to this all how, you know, I don't know if I'm getting trouble for any of this. I'm saying what you guys called me here to say, which is, even when Matt James says down with Chris at the beginning of the season, he's talking about how difficult it is, you know, to be as a black man, why couldn't The Bachelor get somebody black to say, yo, bro, let's, okay, bro, you're going to be all right. It's not the same. And so I don't disparage Chris, but it's like that moment. I'm like, yo, there's, there's a disconnect. You can't just put somebody of color in the situation and plug in. play and think it's just going to be the same situation. It's not. It doesn't mean that there's different rules, but there's a different nuance that in terms of how things are experienced and how

people feel, right? And I just feel like the show doesn't consistently deal with that. So the response to Rachel is, thank you for your statement. Let's see where the season ends up. It's ultimately up to Matt and it's his choice to make. The response to the show is we got to have a conversation. as a fan, as somebody who's watched Rachel have one of the stronger connections this season, and now that she's acknowledged her past mistakes, and I, like you, feel like it was a good apology. You know, I felt like she had true remorse and awareness, and I really do think that she wants to change for the better.

But now I'm conflicted as far as, like, as a fan, do I root for this coupling? Can you help me work through this feeling I have? Listen, listen, listen. Again, it's so hard without really getting in depth for her story. You know, like she knew Matt. I mean, I mean, she went on the show. I mean, you know, she, again, I don't know her. She doesn't seem to be a clout, you know, clout chaser or something like that.

Like she seems to be genuinely interested. I agree with you. You know, her date, the whole Cinderella date was like amazing. Their connection seemed incredible. she doesn't seem like she's playing for the cameras, in my opinion. She seems very genuine about the whole thing. So, you know, I think that as a fan, I think the prayer is for Matt's heart, you know, that Matt, we want Matt to make the right decision.

It seemed based upon Matt having the interview he did that I'm assuming he's been brought up to speed or, again, I don't know in terms of how production works and what we see and how many more episodes. I don't know all that. But I would just still root for love to win. I mean, let's not let this moment make a cynical about love. Love works, love wins, and love will find a way, even in a situation like this. And I do believe that if Rachel and Matt are meant to be together, then love is going to see them through this.

And so I do think that if that is, if you're, you know, your couple, root for them, root for them in love, you know, pray that their heart is open, that her heart is open. And that maybe this is the thing, this experience is what she needed to then become the spokesperson. to other white men and women on, hey, we can't do this. This is not how we go about this. And maybe there's a major blessing that's going to come out of all of this. But in terms of rooting, I would still root for them. I still would, you know, pray for them. And let's see where the process takes, you know, where love takes us at the end of the day.

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Van, do you have a few minutes to stick with us? I think this conversation is one that, you know, there's a few things that you said that I really want to get your wisdom. Yeah, I got as much time as you need. Ah, well, thank you for that. You said the word accountability. Accountability's been, been obviously thrown around a lot. I think it was used when, you know, Chris announced that he is stepping away from the show. he's going to be held accountable. I think, you know, as I looked online, a lot of the words that

were being used to Rachel and to Chris where we need to hold them accountable. I would love to get your idea of healthy, helpful, maybe it would be the better word to use in front of that accountability. Like how do we, if we're sitting there and Rachel really does say, hey, I want to be a spokesperson. I want to teach people my lessons learned and speak out of that. And maybe, you know, I talked to Chris last night. I know he is in the proud. process right now of consuming a lot, learning a lot. He's very humbled. I mean, like humbled and not like, oh, I'm such a humble man. Like he's just like feeling the weight of this, right? And he's very open to like hearing from from really knowledgeable sources on how to get better.

So with those things in mind, if that's where we're coming from, how do we give helpful accountability? Right. Okay, good. So I think that helpful accountability is different for, for Chris and for Rachel. So let's deal with Chris first. So I think with Chris, it really goes back to, you know, that accountability, which is really helpful, is to hold them accountable. I mean, honestly, bro, we love you and you missed it. We love you and you heard us. And here's why you heard us. You know, when I go back and I think about that interview, I think all of us have strong feelings about cancel culture, right?

and how cancel culture just move so quickly. And I think we all feel like, wait a minute, hold on. I think, but the problem was looking at things through a white lens prevented him to see that it wasn't just about cancel culture. It was like, oh, no, there's a really serious issue of racism and prejudice that goes really deep. So let me not allow that my lens of unconscious bias to not allow me to not allow me to see what's really going on.

So one of the keys to healthy accountability is unconscious bias training. Can you elaborate on that a little bit? Yeah. So when you go through unconscious bias training, it's a real process, you know, that is many times it's, it's hours long where you sit with the professional and they walk you through, you know, scenarios and situations, you know, where you understand you begin to learn like, oh, God, I didn't know when I said that. That was actually prejudice. You know, oh, I didn't realize that was an area of sensitivity. Oh, my goodness. Wow, I didn't know that I had a blind spot.

So unconscious bias training, I think, is critical in this day and age or anyone endeavoring to navigate racial issues successfully. And so I think healthy and helpful accountability for Chris Harrison would be absolutely engaging in unconscious bias training. And, you know, if I was a part of the process or we could recommend to them, I say, yeah, he should put, his process should not just be something that he generates. Like, it should be, yeah, he's going to do his work, but there should also be some professional work that is put in place to really help ensure that this type of thing never happens again. So that's part of it. The other part of it is, you know, Chris is like family, right?

So when we're family, we can be honest with each other. We can say, hey, this didn't feel good. You know, it doesn't mean we don't love them any less. It's just like, you know, again, I don't love them any less. I know there's people, you know, saying all these other things. I'm saying as a fan of the Bachelors Nation, I support Chris Harrison. I love Chris Harrison from what I know. But I also know, like, bro, there's a real big opportunity for you to learn and come through this much stronger, much better than the way you went in.

and the thing to not do again is just be dismissive and callous about people's pain and situations that you are not well versed on. And here's the other thing. Rachel's a grown woman. You don't have to speak for her. You don't have,

and this is where we as men get in trouble. We think we've got to be speaking for everybody. No, let people speak for themselves. He didn't need to, and I think that's one of the reasons where he went wrong. He started speaking for her. He didn't need to speak for her. Let her speak for herself.

And let her see what's going to happen. in terms of healthy accountability for Rachel, it's a tougher assessment because unlike Chris Harrison, Rachel, I mean, unlike, you know, unlike Chris Harrison, Rachel has not gone on camera. She has not been asked questions. We don't really know, you know, her feeling and what led her here. Clearly those things happened years ago. Clearly, she knew the bachelor, the bachelor was going to be black. And clearly she went ahead and, and, you know, apply. anyway and clearly seems to be falling in love with the black man. So, you know, without hearing from her, her opinion on all of that, it's really hard to make an assessment on what that healthy accountability will be. Do I believe that everyone to get a chance to make amends for their past? Do I think you should always hold up a mirror to someone's past? Not in all situations, But in this situation with Rachel, it's really hard to know what accountability is going to look like without hearing more from her. What about accountability when it comes to Chris?

There's so many people calling for his job saying that in order to take full accountability, he needs to permanently step down. How do you feel about that? Yeah. Now, listen, I may, again, I'm not sure, you know, what the majority of minority is in terms of social sentiment. Neither would I. I'm listening to the loud social media part. Right, right. I am not in favor of that.

You know, I think that, come on, I think that Chris Harrison has put his heart and soul into this franchise. You know, I think that these moments are moments when, you know, you make a mistake. And hopefully you learn from it. And then you become better for it. And not only do you become better, but the franchise becomes better. So my hope and prayer is that this is a massive teaching moment. But I do not share the sentiment that because of what he said and how he said it, that that should be that he is fired.

Now, again, I know some people feel differently about that. I get that. But I think that there's too much potential good that can come from this for Chris, for the Bachelor, for the network, and for all of the millions of fans. To me, there's too much potential good to allow him to be fired. over this. I would much rather this be a teaching moment where he really understands the error of his ways. He makes amends and he does his work from now until. And as a result, everyone else in the franchise, the franchise becomes different. In moments like this, sometimes are the very best teachers. Because otherwise, the franchise may have just kept rolling, rolling, rolling,

still doing the stuff that isn't really for all people. But the potential good that can come out of this, it's much greater to me than letting him lose his job over it. As a friend of Chris's, I love your take on that. That is my hope for the franchise as well. But we can't, okay, so without all that being said, and even though, yeah, you know, and I don't think it's a secret. Like, Chris is a friend of mine. Like, I talked to him last night, right?

I want to be there through it. I don't think what he said and how he said it was good. I think it was harmful. I told him that. He knows that that's how we feel. Let's know. He now knows that's how a lot of people feel. But with that being now in mind and in what you just said also, how do we still then, okay, and this is going to be phrased weird. My question is, in my life, I've learned a lot from pain and I've learned a lot from failure and I've learned a lot from messing up. I haven't learned that much through times of success. It's just maybe an error in my ways. Usually in success, I just celebrate and I just keep rolling, right? Well, the show is now hitting a point where, it feels like there is a lot of pain and there is some massive apparent failures. So as fans of the show, how do we sit back and still celebrate now this maybe the slower

progression, actually the quicker progression than maybe it would have been if they just would have kept rolling with it. How do we recognize it, celebrate it, get behind it, help push it forward, help keep pushing Chris Ford because right now it feels like and again I said like the world of The Bachelor is falling down like it feels very quick that the show could just be gone next year which I do believe and I'm not the one to say this but like it would be a mistake because I do think there's a lot of learning that can be done um from the millions that watch the show so how do we how do we walk in that balance I guess you you got to walk in in the balance through um

let me separate it right because there's a there's the fan how do we walk into balance and then there's the production and the show and the network and how do they walk in the balance what we ultimately can will receive has so much to do with what they do or don't do so i would say to anyone who's in bachelor nation first and foremost you have these you know know, contestants on this show right now who literally are bearing their heart and soul to the world looking for love. So still root that love is going to find a way with those who are on the show right now. So let's just make sure we're not throwing the baby out of the bathwater. Let's say, okay, the show is happening. They're just in it, right? They're innocent bystanders.

All this is happening around them. Listen, we got to hope they find love. So let's put that to decide. As fans, I think we have both hopes. We can hope that the show endures and we hope that the show gets better. And we hope that Chris and the network do their work in order to fix this show so that we all can get behind it and stay behind it with a clear conscience. But as fans, I think the most powerful thing we have is our voice. And so what you're hearing are a lot of voices that need to be listened to. It doesn't mean that, oh, the voices that are calling for Chris's, you know, firing that, okay, wow, we have such a sentiment.

We're just going to go by what they say. No. I think what's the undercurrent is a lot of frustration built up over years. Okay. So it's all this frustration that's now, now there's a, because guess what, the Bachelor as a, as an entity is amorphous outside of Chris Harrison. So the moment that Chris does this, first of all, he's always been the face of The Bachelor, but now he becomes the face of the antagonism because, oh, wow, now we have someone to direct

our anger to, but really we're angry that we don't always feel seen and heard by this show that we love so much. So where do we go? I think we go to a place of letting cooler heads prevail. I think the network, the show has to do their work. And they have to earn. the respect of those fans that are really upset right now. And they should not just turn to blind eye and say, oh, those are friends group of people. No, say, you know what? There's a lot of people upset about there out there.

But what the wrong move is, to me, is to fire Chris and then say, okay, we let Chris go. You know, now we fixed our problem. No, you haven't. Because any other host that's going to come into the same system is going to be subject to the same system. I think that for Bachelor Nation, this is a moment of powerful reckoning if everyone chooses to see it that way. But so much of this responsibility falls on the shoulders of the network and the producers of the show to really look at this as a teachable moment and learn the lesson and do the best they can to make the show better because of it.

As you speak, it's just like it's reminding me of over the last few years. right. My fiance grew up in the South. She talked about it on her Instagram, but you know, there's a lot of traditions in the South that, you know, I think she went to Old Miss. Up until a couple years ago, Dixie was still their fight song, right? Like her, one of her best friends from college, I was with her this weekend. And she's black and she was talking to us. She's like, can you believe that I went out there with pom-poms and cheered to the song Dixie for years, four years of my college experience? And that was, so let's look at Old Miss. know, in the comparison of like, old miss is, uh, the bachelor world and like, so it's always

interesting. Ashley, I talk about a lot how these scenarios within the bachelor can transcend into our regular life. Like, we can take examples that are happening on the show and move them into our experiences off the show. And I'm listening to what you're saying right now. And what I'm, what I'm hearing is, and what I'm feeling is this like, now it's time for me to do better. It's time for Ashley to do better. It's time for all of us to do better and say this is a teachable moment. moment for us all to not just push it on the rug and say, okay, I'm going to delete this picture because, hey, in college, you know, in college I dressed up as something. No, this is a moment to say, I'm going to, I'm going to own this, understand the pain that was caused in this,

learn from it, grow from it, and now become an advocate because at least the people I want to associate with my life and are people that don't want to cause more pain to this world. There's already enough. We want to be people that try to help and not hurt. And so now it's like okay these things hurt these things are painful and tell me if i'm wrong here but i'm just trying to like mirror what you're saying so that i'm taking this out into the world and for the fans of the show can take this out in the world and say now it's time for us all that we've we've we've seen the example of it it's now time for us to get better it's it's been time for us to get better maybe we've tried to get better but like this is another reminder of continuing to do the

work so less pain is caused yeah no ben i think what you're saying is true and and i think that it is commendable because you're absolutely right. Like it's about doing that work and it's about saying, okay, yeah, how can I, you know, as a white man or a white woman, how can I take this and say, okay, you know, what can I learn from it? How can I become better? Maybe there's something I didn't know. Maybe there's something I've done in my path.

Maybe there's things I've said. Maybe there's people I've associated with that instead of being ashamed only about those things, saying, all right, you know what, I want to be a part of the change that I want to see in this world. So I'm going to contribute to that. And I do think that in Bachelor, you know, nation, it's similar to our nation, you know, where some people are so upset that this is even a conversation.

Some people are just mad, you know, that, oh, this is just, you know, we should just, you know, ignore that. And we got to save Chris and all these different things. Here's the reality. In any family, you know, you've got to love everybody. And you've got to hear everybody. point of view. And I think that in a moment like this, when you talk about, you know, both you and Ashley, you know, having been a big part of this, this franchise and still continue to be, and so

many others, I do think that it's a, it's a moment of reckoning, you know, it's a moment of reckoning. But I want to be, I want to be, I want to be very clear about something. And here's what I mean by that. As a white person, you can feel badly about things you've said or done. As a black person, I don't want your guilt about those things. No, woe is me. No, no, no. Just tell me what you're going to do about it.

Acknowledge it. Say, hey, I'm not going to run from it. I'm not sweeping on the rug. I did it. Here's what I'm doing about it. Cool. So I think that in this moment, you know, it's like, this idea, you know, that, oh, my goodness, you know, if I'm white, you know, can I talk about race?

Can I not talk about race? Of course you can talk about race. What if you don't know what to say? That's okay. It's better to say, I don't know exactly what to say here, but here's what I'm trying to, it's better to say something than to say nothing. And it's better to engage in uncomfortable conversations around race and get to a comfortable place than to never have it at all. So that is a perfect transition into cancel culture because we need to talk more, you know, in order to get better, in order to educate ourselves. We need to have these conversations. But I think what's so scary for us is that it seems like we live in such a heated, divisive world where if you make a mistake, and it's not out of malice, it's out of true ignorance, or you just simply didn't word something, right? like you're at risk of getting canceled and I just think that cancel culture and progress in

this are just at each other like they just butt heads so much what do we do about it yeah yeah this is this is very very true um you know there is this the cancel culture that's ready like literally ready to go to work if there's anything out of line that anyone says at any time depending on what your situation is I think that because Because of that, when it comes to race and talking about race, again, I go back to what we talk about with Chris Harrison, already understanding the power of cancel culture, either doing one of two things, saying, I need to get, I need to go get educated on these issues before I speak or saying, you know what? I don't know. I don't know enough yet. You know, and then also framing into a question, you know, what would we?

be the right response for a white woman in this situation? What would be the right response for a white man? What is okay to say and not okay to say? Like framing it into a question that then you get feedback on helps prepare you to know what to say. It is okay to say, I actually don't know what to say. I'm not entirely sure, but I do want to say something. You know, so here's my heart. How do I say it will be the best way to do it. That's how I think how you would do it so that that way you are engaging in the culture. You're letting the culture know your heart. Hey, I'm not here to harm. I'm not here to provoke the same pain, but I need some instruction. You know, and listen, there's so much out there. I mean, there's so many books. There's so much knowledge, you know, around race and race

relations, especially in 2020, 2021, excuse me, that if you really, anyone, who really wants to know more about these issues can come up to speed very quickly on what is and what isn't. But when it comes to cancel culture, especially when it comes to social media, I would absolutely advise caution, you know, don't go out there and speak about something that you are not educated on and that you have not checked with, you know, especially if you're talking about race, you know, please check with some of your friends of color to say, hey, I'm thinking about this is what I want to say. Let them poke some holes in it before you publicly say it. It's obvious from talking to your day and I was doing a little prep for

this, but you have a very high value on humans. I can tell that you really, people really matter to you. Absolutely. Why? Why? Because, man, but for the grace of God. there go why, man, we're all God's children, period. And the Bible says, love your neighbor as yourself. I do not get an excuse not to love somebody, even if I can't stand their actions. And also, judge not let she be judged. We all come short of the glory of God. We all are in need of redemption. I don't say those words to pacify someone who's done things that need accountability. I'm not saying that. But I also, in terms of this whole cancel culture, I don't want to participate in that. I'm not into canceling people because people matter. You know, we talk about

Rachel, again, I don't know her. She needs to be held accountable and all that. But again, knowing what it's like when you're dealing with Hollywood and, you know, the spot, for the first time in your life, this is the most terrifying thing that she's probably ever going through in her life. That doesn't make it right what she did. But I'm just saying, like, we're just going to all of a sudden just crucify her and then say, all right, her body's laying by the side of the road and all right, we can keep on moving. I can't participate in that. That's not who I am. That's not what I want to be about. I'm like, yo, let's talk about it. What you did was wrong. I think, you know, here's where you went wrong. Let's see how

we can fix it. I'm more about that because we all need it, man. We all need it. We all need it. There are times and situations where we all need redemption. We all have made mistakes that we are completely terrified about, that we were remorseful of, and we need a shot to get it right. And I just believe in that. I believe in that deeply. And I believe that we should give people a shot to get it right. And my hope is that if they get that shot, that they would do something positive with it. Another thing I want to say real quick, Ben, it doesn't have been earlier in your question.

I wanted to address when you were talking about pain and accountability and Chris, and it kind of, the implication was like, well, if he doesn't lose his job, is he going to be really experiencing the pain from the whole experience? From what I can glean, this is the most painful experience. He's probably ever been to professionally. Because he seems to be someone who completely,

cares and wants that to be experienced in on the show in a moment like this where he said something which, you know, was, was, has been taken the way that it's taken. And also him realizing, oh, man, I, I misspoke and I shouldn't have said those things. I'm sure he's experiencing devastating pain at this moment. So I don't think that the barometer for the pain he should experience is losing his job. I think that he's already going. going through the pain. And my hope is, again, this pain will produce something positive for himself, for the show, for the network, and most importantly, the fans. Because this show, you all know, this show, man, this franchise represents hope to people. It reminds people that, you know,

love can work and love will win. And so if we as the Bachelor Nation don't practice that love, then we really, really aren't part of the nation, right? It's like, no, we got to be a part of loving people back to where we want them to be, even if it's painful. Ben, did you get a little emotional there? Because I certainly did. I was like, I have a lump in my throat. You are a beautiful person, Devon. Thank you for just everything. I have no response to you because like what you say is just and heavenly to me. Yeah. And it's not and it's not just because it's good. Right. It's not just because it's, it's not just because it's sounds nice it's not just because you know and no secret to this is like we said many times here

three times i think i've said it's like chris is a friend and he's he's family he's been this show has been really good to us and it's been good to many people um i would never be talking to you today uh if it wasn't for this show and and i and i need to recognize that um and so it's a shocking moment it's it's a weird moment uh as a friend we need to say chris i'm not okay with this um but i'm learning to along the way like there's things you said in there that like i didn't pick up on right away i hear the response we all need to get better from it we all need to learn from it um devon thank you for coming on here thank you for for taking the time uh it means a ton to us i think it me it will mean a ton to the listeners out there um and you said some i just want to

sticks with me and then i'm going to take here uh what is there's a lot of work to be done but we can't give up hope we can't no and um and so i'm just that's that's my that's my big note coming out of this is there's a lot of work to be done a lot of conversations to be had but we can't give up hope and thank you for for for reminding me of that and sharing that with us um it's a big deal for us uh my pleasure thank you for having me and uh you know we got to keep over live you know we ain't got hold we ain't got nothing so we i know we can get through this uh it's painful a lot of work to do but it's totally there to do

if the powers that be choose to do it listening to you today is truly enriched in my life so thank you very much oh Ashley thank you so much thank you thank you well we can't in this podcast classic me we can't end this podcast

in any way that we don't usually in this podcast Devon if you can just follow our lead if you don't get it right it's okay but hey this has been a podcast with Devon Franklin, covering the situation that happened last week in the comments made by Chris Harrison and the interview with Rachel Lindsay. We hope this podcast is helpful. We hope you listen.

We'll be back to break down the episode, you know, because that's kind of what this podcast is, without neglecting and negating the importance of what's happening now and not pushing it aside but consistently reminding us that this work to be done, this hope to be had in the words of Devon Franklin. Well, with that, I've been Ben. I've been Ashley. And I've been Devon. There you go, buddy.

Follow the Ben and Ashley I, almost famous podcast on IHartRadio or subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. Hi, my name is Enya Umanzor. And I'm Drew Phillips. And we run a podcast called Emergency Intercom. If you're a crime junkie and you love crimes, we're not the podcast for you. But if you have unmedicated ADHD Oh my God, perfect. And want to hear people with mental illness,

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