The Ben and Ashley I Almost Famous Podcast - Almost Famous In Depth: Zac Clark

Episode Date: September 8, 2023

Ben and Ashley are ready to go IN DEPTH with a member of Bachelor Nation whose story needs to be told… Zac Clark. We talk to Zac about his journey through addiction, which inspires Ben to open up about his own struggles with drug abuse.  Zac gets real about his experience in his first marriage, and authentically shares the details about why that relationship fell apart. And we hear about his time on The Bachelorette from his point of view, all the way through to his proposal to Tayshia. Plus, we hear about Zac’s work with addiction centers and how he’s helping others facing the same challenges.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Like right after the season was completed, somebody that I look up to a lot. I respect in the work that he does. somebody that I enjoy following on Instagram, somebody I'm very excited to have on the Almost Famous Podcast. Ashley, I know you are as well. This has been somebody we've asked to bring on for weeks now. Yeah, the perfect person to do it in depth with

because I do truly feel like there's a lot of depth to him and he has a lot of backstory. It is Zach Clark. Hey, Zach, welcome to the podcast. What's up, guys? Am I super embarrassed? I was on before? Yeah.

So I actually like have to, we'd have to really go back, but I do think that you probably came on with Tasia and like an after you did like right as you were announced in like a speed press round yeah a whole different life for you buddy okay all right I'll I'll I'll trust you guys on that okay I don't even trust ourselves here because I'm like kind of torn on this I know it to be true okay all right so Zach um we're we're really excited to have you here when we do in Debs we like kind of start with people's childhood and up. So are you ready?

Let's do it. Yeah. A lot of childhood stuff, you know. Yeah. So tell us about like where you grew up, what your family dynamic was like based on the show. It seems like you have like the most warm and wonderful family. Tell us about it.

It's so crazy you asked that. I was just talking to my sister. Yeah, like it was like a white picket fence upbringing. And if you saw the Clark family from the outside, like, oh, they're the perfect like American dream family. but when you really dig in, there's like substance use and eating disorders, anxiety, and all the shit, right? So you just never know what's going on. I mean, look, I grew up in South Jersey.

I'm one of five kids. My parents are still happily married, so they've been an amazing example for me for my entire existence. And like, I have no notes on my upbringing. I mean, I always, like, when people ask me about my high school experience, I always kind of say it was like that dazed and confused. you know, like I don't know if you've seen the movie, but like, you know, played three sports and drank in the woods on the weekends and chased girls and ran out from cops and had a lot of fun. I don't really, like there wasn't a lot of trauma. There was no reason why I, you know, became a drug addict or whatever happened. But I did, you know, and that's why I'm so passionate

about talking about it however many years later. You know, it's interesting because you say that And I think, you know, our stories are different, but similar in a lot of ways. Like, I had an amazing upbringing and yet found myself addicted as well. And there's been moments, obviously, in that, Zach, that I felt, I don't know what the emotion around it is guilty, sometimes confused. Like, how did that happen to me? You know, at times, like, I'll be honest. I'll just say it. Like, I wish I had a better story.

Like, I wish, like, I was at times, like, almost. envious of not having this, like, really gritty, like, terrible upbringing where I'm like, yeah, that's why I did what I did. Or that's how I got to where I got. Do you ever feel that? Or when you look at that kind of childhood that you grew up in, like, how do you view it, I guess, in the lens of now looking back on it? Yeah, no, I've definitely felt that. And kudos to you, man. I read a little bit about your story. And likewise, I've been following you. And I just love that we get to do this thing kind of shoulder to shoulder. and talk about it.

And the truth is, like, when I got sober, someone sat me down because I was like, dude, I don't know, like, there's parts of my story that don't seem so interesting. I mean, again, definitely it's gnarly at some point, but he looks me back in the eyes, like, dude, the truth is the truth. He's like, the good news now is all you have to do is be honest, right? And so, like, I've tried to lean into that. But if you, you know, looked at the town I grew up in, I mean, it's like a country club town in South Jersey, right?

like I didn't want for anything. I had the nice baseball bad. I had the nice club. I, you know, there was always food on the plate, right? And like, sure, like, I could have dressed it up and bullshaded people about my upbringing. But I'm proud of that today. And, like, I lean into that, I guess is really the name of the game. Well, you said that there was darkness and alcoholism and anorexia and all that.

So when did that start playing in? So my sisters. very open she had an eating disorder and that was kind of like I remember that back like I remember dropping her off to those appointments when I was in high school right like mom would drop me off at sports practice and she would go see her therapist and that was like all like over over my head uh you know my my older brother I would say like maybe has a little work all like perfectionism or workaholism and and then there's me right like I I think for the most part like had a good high school experience, got into college, played college baseball, but I just always loved the party,

you know, and it just, it was the most important thing in my life. Like, if I knew that I had a drunk coming, that's all I really cared about. And it didn't really add up for me until, uh, until I got this brain tumor and ended up in surgery and they started pouring pills down my throat, right? Like, that's when it really was like pouring gasoline on the fire. But, um, I think, I think like, I, you know, I, I think, I, I think, I, I think, I, I, I think, I, I like to say, like I've done a lot of work and I've looked at my childhood and, you know, I would tell you that like in my household, we didn't, we are a loving family and we always joke, but we don't really have those conversations where like there was never the birds and the bees talk. There was never like to talk about don't do drugs. It was kind of just like kind of figure it out on your own. And I don't know if that was just my parents way of parenting or whatever it was. But it's definitely interesting to look back at it now and that in my work, right, like, Like, I see all these families come into my care, and I'm like, ooh, I know that because that's what it felt like for me growing up or whatever like that.

So, I don't know. I could talk about this stuff for hours. Well, good thing. We have a lot of time with you then. So for those that don't know, because, you know, I think that, I think unfairly to you when you're on the show and then post show, you know, people really gravitated and held on to this. story that you were a recovered addict and that you had that story. But what they missed in that

is kind of how that started. And that was with a brain tumor where the medicines and the pain pills and these things kind of were given to you through the medical profession. And so if you don't mind kind of giving us that story of, you know, you played college baseball. And then at what age did you find out that you had a brain tumor and how did that kind of go through, you know, process? yeah yeah it's and this is all so i actually celebrate 12 years tomorrow so this is all like yeah yeah so it's all like i'm it's that time of year where i'm feeling all the fields but um so i appreciate that we're talking about all this stuff so look i don't i don't blame doctors i don't blame the medical profession i think we've come a long way since that experience as a

society um but i will tell you that free surgery like definitely love the part already definitely wasn't afraid of a bong hit, definitely dabbling pills and coke and all the shit that you kind of do in high school and college. And then I graduate college and I'm living this whatever normal existence. I get my first job. I'm dating my college sweetheart and life is kind of good aside from the fact that I'm probably blacking out like three, four times a week. So prior to the surgery, I already had these tendencies, right? Like I already, there was something inside me and and I'm and I'm very aware of that and what happened was it was Memorial Day weekend so it was the beginning of summer me and my college buddies had had rented

a house down the Jersey Shore we were going to go you know party for the weekend and we were packing up the cores in the car and I just I hadn't been feeling good for a couple weeks and I said to them I was like guys I got a I got to try and figure this out and I literally remember calling this x-ray place which is kind of like your side of the road suburban kind of strip mall x-ray place and i i made an appointment i literally was like a drive-in i drove in and this sweet x-ray technician or whatever you want to call it came back after she had taken a few scans and she she was white as a ghost and i could just tell something was wrong she's like you're not you're not moving i need to basically call an ambulance and so from that moment

within the next 24 hours i'm at university of penn hospital in philadelphia getting this tumor cut out of the back of my head and there was no like pre-op there was no conversations like we got to get this thing out of here and we got to you know worry about it after the fact so I go from you know I'm going down the shore with my friends to you know having this life-threatening surgery in a matter of 24 hours so I don't know what the hell is going on and I remember waking up in the ICU like you know but naked like with all these things like tied into me and they're just pumping me with meds, right? And I remember thinking to myself, like, there's no way that I kind of feel this good after having that just happened to me. And it

clicked in my mind that the meds were doing that for me. And so, you know, I spent whatever it was a couple weeks in the hospital. And the one thing I will say, there was never a doctor that came in and said, hey, these are the meds were putting you on. You know, this is what they do. And this is what you have to watch out for. They kind of just gave it to me. And, and I got to out of the hospital and I finished off my prescriptions and I started to probably feel a little bit of those withdrawal symptoms and I took to the streets. Like I started buying drugs on the streets and from there it was kind of like off to the races. Crazy. So quick. Yeah. And that, I mean, you know, that kind of went off to the races. I think going to the streets. You know, for me, I had my very first

high school start at quarterback. Big deal for me. Blow out my knee. You know, like four plays in. It's just a totally destroy my knee. Sports are done. Like, I'm done. That was it. That was it. Like, never again, all three ligaments. Like, I never recovered. I came back and just was like a shell of myself athletically. And it was the identity switch for me. Like, it was the, hey, this is the thing I've known. This is what I've been known for. This is what I thought my future look like. Now I'm just a student and a pretty poor one at that and really have no clue what life is going to look like. And so the medicine started there. the painkiller started there and then they numbed me like that emotion like as soon as I got off of

them then all of a sudden I started to feel that like depression and I started to feel the identity switch and so the pills numbed my senses and kind of made me feel non-existent which is what I was looking for and that's where the addiction started and then obviously I had hit the streets as well I know what that looks like hitting the streets uh for me was it what year was this so that It started in 2008, ended in 2012. Yeah. Yeah, we were out there. I mean, same shit.

Yeah. So the, you know, for me at least, my hitting the streets look like this. Stealing and then obviously buying wherever I could. For those that are listening, obviously you do this for a profession now. And I think for me, as I've walked through this journey, it's been really good to talk about it because I think a lot more people than we understand are dealing with this. What did that look like for you hitting the streets? Like, what kind of things could you share and warning signs, maybe, for family and friends?

Yeah, I mean, it's heavy, and I appreciate you sharing, bro. And it's like, this is why I do what I do, because I get to share openly with guys like you about that people hear and probably over-dramatized, but really, it's just a part of our story. And we choose to lead into that. And I think my truth about podcasts in general is I don't, like, get super excited for them or love them. But if we help one person today, that's really, it was all worth it, right?

Like at the end of the day, that's what I really truly believe. And my experience has told me that when I do these things, typically the DMs start flying in and we start to help some people. You know, for me, one, it has absolutely changed in the last 10 years. If I was out there now, I wouldn't, I wouldn't be alive. just because fentanyl, which is the synthetic opiate that's being put in all these street drugs

and it's basically 50 times stronger than the painkillers do and I did, right? So people are dying left and right. I mean, you see the Narcan up here on my shelf. I mean, I carry that shirtwear because you just never know. But for me, you know, what it looked like is I obviously had a lot of guilt and shame

around the fact that I was hooked on drugs. So I didn't want anyone to know about my habit. Initially, I found a drug dealer in town that sold pills and I managed to kind of keep that habit going for I would say about a year after the surgery where you know you wake up you text a drug dealer you go you buy your whatever headstash for the day you take them you do them and it's a crazy cycle because what started as swallowing pills turns into snorting pills and then I'm smoking pills and it's just like the progression right and at every step along the way I was I was resetting my tolerance yeah

um as you probably know right like you go from taking a five milligram per to take in you know a hundred milligrams of uh oxycott in a day like whatever it was for me that's what it was for me and then beyond uh you know and then what happened was i ended up in rehab for the first time and while rehab saved my life eventually i will say that the first time i was in rehab i learned about heroin. I learned about other drugs. I got super curious. I knew that I wasn't done. So I got out of treatment and tried to find pills. Couldn't. And I don't know. Well, what happened? I found pills. I started doing it. And I was like, okay, like, this is becoming too expensive too quickly. And then I went and bought a bag of heroin for the first time. And again, that reset my

tolerance. And a bag of heroin is 10 bucks, right? Whereas a pill, I was paying $50, $60 for pill. And then I kind of lived that way for a certain period of time. And then that's when the needle came into play and I started shooting drugs. You know, so it's like it goes from this crazy brain tumor to hooked on pills to it's an expensive habit to in rehab, to it's an even more expensive habit to heroin. And that's why I always say like we need to normalize that word because, you know, I say heroin to someone and they look at me like I afford eyes when in reality it's you know more people are doing it than you realize oh hi my name is enya umanzor and i'm drew phillips and we run a podcast called

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Oh, that's the run right. I'm looking at this thing. Listen to no such thing on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. How did you get into that rehab? Was there an intervention with your family? Great question. So the first time I went to rehab, it was...

So I was married previously. I got married in June of 2009 to my college sweetheart. And she saved my life. I will say that here on the record. And we were basically married for a year. She knew that I loved to party and that something was off. But she also loved me, right? Because we're lovable people.

And then in, so it was like October of 2010, the wheels were starting to come off. And like the 3,000 foot overview of my life. is I'm newly married. I'm living in this house and like the town I grew up in. We have this little dog that's running around. And, you know, there's like two cars in the driveway. I'm working. She's a teacher on the outside.

Again, it looks like we had this pretty normal life. But behind the scenes, I'm hooked on pills. I'm building like massive gambling debt. And my entire life is a lie, right? And I'm starting to get disconnected from the people in my life that mean the most to me. So that story is actually pretty hilarious. My wife and mom were out at a bar, classically, in the town of Haddonfield, where I grew up. And one of my friends actually went up to them and told them that I was, that I had a drug problem.

So my mom came home to my house. I'm like sitting there watching the Phillies game. And she's like, we know what's going on. I'm like, what the hell are you talking about? She was, we know you're hooked on drugs. So that night, I actually drove myself to a rehab that I had seen a billboard for on the side of the road, which is insane. And I think I was their first and only drive-in customer ever because I just, like, I didn't know what else to do, right?

And so I slept in that, in the parking lot of that rehab. I, like, knocked on the door, the detox. It's a hilarious story, actually, if you think about it. Like, you don't, you can't just walk into rehab. And then I admitted the next day and I stayed for, for 28 days. And, you know, while it didn't stick, I learned a lot, um, that first time around. Yeah. Did you, uh, did you want to?

I mean, when, when they confronted. you. I think there's a piece here I want to dig into a little bit. So I don't know if you've learned that you could, if you could speak to this, is there a healthy way to confront somebody who's an addict? Did they do it? And I mean, typically people have no idea, right? Your mom and your wife find out and they come home and they're like probably freaked out. They're nervous. They're scared. And then they come home and they're like, we know what's going on. Like, is there a way they could have done this better. Not that they messed up, but is there a way they could have done this better? And then the second part of that is, were you ready to hear this from somebody you loved?

So there's a couple questions. There was I ready? I, there was a sense of relief when I found out that they knew because I had been living such a lie. Right. So the fact that it was out me open, I did feel a little shift. I was not ready to be done drinking and doing drugs that that had never crossed my mind. But I'm also like a mama's boy. I'm super sensitive. And so like when my mom walked through the door, I always respected my mother.

And so I was going to listen and I felt it in my soul. Looking back, maybe if they had a professional or went about it in a little bit of a different way, could it have had a different outcome? I don't know. The research actually suggests that the willingness that you go into rehab with has no bearing on whether or not you're going to stay sober or not. You know, like they, you hear a lot of times people are like, well, they got to hit rock bottom before they go in and get like, that's bullshit, right?

Like I've seen people turn their lives around who, you know, just wanted to turn their lives around or I've seen people go to rehab kicking and screaming that end up with a really good outcome. So I don't, I don't really buy into that. I think for like the listeners, if you're concerned about a loved one, obviously having a professional guide you is key because it removes the emotion from it, right? Like a family member, a spouse, a brother, a sister, it's just going to be emotional.

It's just going to be too emotional, right? And what I always say is like for me, if there's a professional in the room and there's an intervention going on, I'm not going to use my kind of like, I'm not going to weaponize some of the shit. I would usually weaponize against my family and my loved ones because I don't, I would be embarrassed to do that, right?

Like it kind of takes the air and the emotion out of the room because I don't want them to see me act that way, right? So, but it all comes back to love and compassion and just making sure that the person who's struggling with their mental health or their substance use disorders is seen and heard. That's so much of it. And I've done tons of interventions and sometimes they go and sometimes they don't. Typically, if you stay on them, though,

they'll eventually ask for help. Who are the professionals? Like if somebody's out there listening to like, yeah, I'm in this scenario. I need to reach out to a professional to help me through this with me. Okay. Yeah. You can DM. I mean, look, I have like, so release, recover of my company here in New York.

We have 70-something employees, trained interventionists on staff. I mean, we, we get these calls all day every day. And if it's not us, then we will, you know, refer you out to the, to the appropriate person. And that's really been the blessing and the curse of this whole platform, I guess, you would call it that I've been given, is that I have to be very mindful these days of when I post or when I put something out there because every time I do, the influx of people kind of asking for help and wanting assistance can be overwhelming. And, you know, like the drug addict that I am, I want to help everyone and I want to, you know, do it all. and sometimes that's not healthy for me. Did you, do you find that there is like that you were hiding it? I mean, I'm assuming that you were hiding your addiction symptoms.

What did you do to hide it and what should family and friends look out for in people when they're a suspect of it? I mean, and Ben, I don't know if you can relate to this, but we're pretty good. I was just going to say my first response is I don't think anybody would. No. Really? No, they didn't, no idea. Like, your behavior wasn't different because you just feel like you're in your normal

state of mind when you're on it. I was probably like super, I was probably in a pretty good mood most of the time. Yeah. I mean, Ashley, if you look at me and Ben right now, right? Like two pretty probably, I would say, like charming, charismatic guys who can put a smile on and fake it, right? So I think that's the life I lived for a very long time. And I was fun to hang out with.

Like, I mean, like, if we went out on a Friday night, we were probably getting into something pretty, pretty exciting. just because whatever. Yeah, I mean, my parents, you know, obviously new bits and piece of this. The book that I wrote explains it in a lot more detail. And then the questions started coming out for that. You know, some of the questions and interviews I get is like, are you ever upset with your parents for not, like, helping you more?

And I'm like, no. Because like one of my main goals was to keep the people I loved, like, not knowing about this. And so it would have been a really hard mystery or a really hard thing for them to crack when, you know, I wasn't letting them in on this. secret or this thing that I was hurting with. And so I guess that's a good point too maybe is like if you're sitting there, you're feeling shame and guilt as a family member or a loved one because you didn't know or you didn't ask the right questions at the right times so that somebody that was hurting was, you know, telling you about this. Like don't carry that because, you know, as an

addict at least, I was working really hard to keep it inside of me. Yeah. So your side that your mom and your wife were out at a bar, had no idea that you had these issues, and then somebody else came up and told them. And that's how they found out, and that was the first time they had an inkling? Yeah, they were, like, sitting there swirling Chardonnay on a Thursday night.

And it's funny, my buddy that actually outed me, I always laughed because I ended up putting him in rehab like four years later. So I got him back, but I credit him with being part of the reason that I'm here today because if he didn't do that, I don't really know what would have happened. And what I tell all family members, the thing that I think is important for people to understand about behavioral

health care, about substance use disorder, about addiction, is that, you know, if I had the cure, if I had the magic answer, I wouldn't be sitting on this podcast. I'd be flying around on my private checks. I would have sold the solution, right? Like if you look at heart disease and diabetes and some of these other diseases out there, you go to the doctor, they're going to tell you what to do.

They're going to put you on medication. They're going to, you know, if you have cancer, like, whatever it is. And you're, as the patient, going to follow those recommendations to a T because you want to live, right? Or you want to get your diabetes under wrap or you want to beat cancer or like, with this, I could go to a rehab or I could go to a therapist or I could go to a doctor and they could make five suggestions. And the addict in me is going to be like, well, I don't really want to do that. I'll think about doing that. I'll probably go to rehab next month. So there's no blueprint on.

what really works here, which is why anytime I talk to a family, I make sure that they're taking care of themselves first, because the most powerful thing that can happen is when the family changes, right, because so much of this is enmeshed in that family of origin and the way you grow up and if the family can change and the mom can stop enabling or whatever it is, then the identified patient, so like me in this case, is going to realize that and I'm going to start to understand that my bullshit isn't working anymore and I'm going to be forced to kind of look at myself

so a big part of this is like each family member or the wife or the spouse or whoever it is taking care of themselves and them changing so that the whole family system can change if that makes sense there's a there's so much

here Zach to break down and all of it's important I don't think we have time to talk through all the process you know but looking back, you know, I'm sure you have similar stories. I've lost, you know, close friends. My best friend in high school passed away due to fit and all use when we were sophomores in college. So, you know, there's people out there right now who have lost loved ones. And there was also, I just had a time this weekend. I was with a group and one of the guys had just recently gotten sober from the same type

pills that I was using, we were kind of chatting through it, like, how lucky are we, right? You said it earlier, like the amount of pills I was taking, not that it would dramatize it, but like, it's scary for me to think about now. It frightens me that that was what I was putting in my body. And people ask me, and I want to hear your response, but they said, people ask me, like, what does it feel like to be sober, right? Or what does it feel like not to be using anymore? And I'm like, well, I don't know if this is for everybody's story. want to hear mostly because I'm curious like the addict like in me always wants a pill like that has not gone away um it's not like all of a sudden now I'm sitting here being like no this does not

sound fun to me still the feeling I don't wish to have again like that still sits inside of me uh the the difference now is the there's decisions and tools that you know I've had to learn and implement in my life to not open up the bottle or to not get back there so for somebody listening and for yourself, in your experience, somebody's maybe feeling some shame because they've recovered and they're sitting there going, yeah, but I want it bad.

Like, are we alone in that? Like, am I alone in that feeling or is that a common feeling? I think it's a common feeling. This might be where we differ a little bit. I think for me, the obsession to drink and drug was lifted at some point. And I don't crave that. you know, the thing that's really interesting is that I've been,

I've been working in behavioral health care now for the last 11 years. So I've seen so many cases come across my desk where, you know, and they're all just so different. They're all, like, so your case is different than my case, which is different than the, you know, the gal that's next to me. And that's why it's so important to kind of approach this thing with love and compassion because your story is different than mine, right? Like, I don't know.

Like, for me, I don't drink. I don't do drugs. I live this, like, completely sober lifestyle. I know other people in my life who, you know, have had a cocaine problem and they've been able to put the cocaine down and they can still have a glass of wine on a Friday night, right? Like, I don't have that luxury because I'm convinced that that will lead me to, you know, other drugs. And so you're absolutely not alone, you know, in the fact that, like,

you still have these cravings from time to time. I think where, and I can only use my experience, where I go with it is that I look at the last 12 years of my life and what I've been able to do. And my existence is next level. And I still get to do, like one of my big things today is showing people that I still get to do some of the coolish this planet has to offer.

I just don't have to drink and do drugs. And in my first year, you know, I didn't do those things. But like this last weekend, I was up at Saratoga with my buddies from high school. We were at the horse races. We were up all night dancing the whole thing, and they're partying their asses off. And I'm right there with them, just making a decision not to drink and do drugs. So there's that.

And then the other thing I will tell you, like in your case or my case or anyone else who's kind of, you know, on this journey is there's a lot of like shame and stigma around this word relapse. So like, you know, maybe you don't do pills for five, six, seven, ten years. And then you have a slip. and people really struggle to come back from that. And what I would tell that person is like that little slip or whatever happened doesn't discount the many years of work you did to get to that point. And at any point in time, you can get right back on and stay sober for that day. So I don't know if that was helpful if I answered your question,

but that's kind of just, yeah. Everybody's story is different. And there are different elements to everything. I think the point that I was trying to make is like the shame and the guilt, I would like to release from the people out there struggling or the family that feels like somebody's struggling because that was never helpful. Like the shame of the guilt was the stuff that I was trying to, you know, rid myself from and one of the, you know, catalysts to the start. And so I like that, I mean, I don't like that makes it sound like I'm, that I knew going

in or I was trying to push you in a certain direction. I am appreciating, I guess, as I listen to you the normalization of these conversations and these words and these experiences because I think normalizing these experiences and allowing an open space to talk about it and allowing a space for compassionate love would have been the only thing that would have helped me at least in my personal experience. It'd been the only thing that I would have felt comfortable being like, yeah, this is this is where I'm at and this is where I don't want to go. Hi, my name is Enya Eumanzor. And I'm Drew Phillips.

And we run a podcast called Emergency Intercom. If you're a crime junkie and you love crimes, we're not the podcast for you. But if you have unmedicated ADHD... Oh my God, perfect. And want to hear people with mental illness, psychobabble. Yes, yes. Then Emergency Intercom is the podcast for you. Open your free IHeartRadio app.

Search Emergency Intercom. And listen now. The U.S. Open is here. And on my podcast, Good Game with Sarah Spain, I'm breaking down the players from rising stars to legends chasing history, the predictions, well, we see a first time winner, and the pressure. Billy Jean King says pressure is a privilege, you know. Plus, the stories and events off the court,

and of course the honey deuses, the signature cocktail of the U.S. Open. The U.S. Open has gotten to be a very fancy, wonderfully experiential sporting event. I mean, listen, the whole aim is to be accessible and inclusive for all tennis fans, whether you play tennis or not. Tennis is full of compelling stories of late. Have you heard about Icon Venus Williams' recent wildcard bids? Or the young Canadian, Victoria Mboko, making a name for herself. How about Naomi Osaka getting back to form?

To hear this and more, listen to Good Game with Sarah Spain, an Iheart women's sports production in partnership with deep blue sports and entertainment on the IHart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports. Hi, I'm Kurt Brown-Oller. And I am Scotty Landis, and we host Bananas, the Weird News Podcasts with wonderful guests like Whitney Cummings. And tackle the truly tough questions.

Why is cool mom and insult, but mom is fine? No. I always say, Kurt's a fun dad. Fun dad and cool mom. That's cool for me. We also dig into important life stuff. Like, why our last names would make the worst hyphen ever.

My last name is Cummings. I have sympathy for nobody. Yeah, mine's brown-olar, but with an H. So it looks like brown-holer. Okay, that's, okay, yours might be worse. We can never get married. Yeah. Listen to this episode with Whitney Cummings and check out new episodes of bananas

every Tuesday on the exactly right network. Listen to bananas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to Pretty Private with Ebeney, the podcast where silence is broken and stories are set free. I'm Ebeney, and every Tuesday I'll be sharing all new anonymous stories that would challenge your perceptions and give you new insight on the people around you. On Pretty Private, we'll explore the untold experiences of women of color who faced it all, childhood trauma, addiction, abuse, incarceration, grief, mental health struggles, and more. and found the shrimp to make it to the other side. My dad was shot and killed in his house.

Yes, he was a drug dealer. Yes, he was a confidential informant, but he wasn't shot on a street corner. He wasn't shot in the middle of a drug deal. He was shot in his house unarmed. Pretty Private isn't just a podcast. It's your personal guide for turning storylines into lifelines. Every Tuesday, make sure you listen to Pretty Private

from the Black Effect Podcast Network. tune in on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Zach, Ben recently had knee surgery. How do you walk addicts through who have recovered into a time where they might need the drug again under medical supervision? Case by case, really.

Did you have to take pills in a better now? I did. Yeah, I had my system. But yeah, you know, if you have an answer to this. But yeah, I'd have my own personal system for that time. Yeah. I think there's a lot of ways. I mean, we've had people in our care here at release that, you know, two months into their stay in our, one of our programs, they need to get some type of major surgery done.

And we approach that with extreme caution, you know. The first thing I always say is like Advil and. Tylenol is pretty damn good when taken correctly. And so let's try that and give that a shot. And if not, you need to take opiates or take pills to help you get through the pain. There's a way that we can do that. Obviously, consulting with your doctor is a big thing there and being really open and honest with them about your previous experience

being hooked on drugs and hoping that they have some bedside banner to be able to work with you on that. And then, you know, enrolling your loved ones, enrolling the people in your life that care about you. And for all this stuff, it all, for me, goes back to honesty. Like, if I am honest, it Ben's honest, Ashley, if you're honest about whatever it is that we're going through, then we have a shot to get through it in a pretty, in a pretty safe and healthy way. Where it goes off the rails is, you know, someone gets surgery two months into recovery. And, you know, they're managing their own pills and they're picking up the scripts.

and, you know, they're doubling down on the dosage. I mean, the dosages are there for a reason and the directions are there for a reason. And so trying to, you know, follow those things to the best of your ability. And leaning on your support group, you can absolutely get through it. Yeah. I mean, you know, what I did, and maybe it's helpful, maybe it's not for anybody, is my wife and my mom, who are out here kind of caring for me for that first two weeks, they were in charge of my bottle.

and then there was literally a day where I remember looking at my mom and saying, I am enjoying this too much. Like, I don't need these anymore. You need to take these away from me. She had started to hit that already. Like, hey, you know, we're 10 days out and you're running through these things. And I'm like, yeah, I'm enjoying this. Like, I like this now. It's probably best I stopped. And we stopped. And as much as, you know, 8 o'clock would roll around. I'd be like, you know, it sounds really good right now is for her to go back up and get me, like they were in control of that and they had to say, no, here's, yeah, here's some Advil. Here's some Tylenol. You'll be fine. So it was the honesty. I think the honesty was just helpful. And, you know, we got through it well.

I think is, you know, for me, and when I said it earlier, like maybe the addict always, at least I crave it at times in my life, a lot less than it used to be. Like, yes, like saying it out loud. admitting it now that my family and my wife know that this was a part of my story like you know they're not shocked and I'm like you know what I'd really really feeling right now and they're like yeah that's not an option and I'm like yeah it's not so what are we going to do let's go for a run let's go for a walk like I got to get my mind off this so it's the honesty and just kind of owning it a little bit I guess for me has helped me um not have access to it or not want access to it or not fight for access to it. I relate to that so much. I love that your mom and wife are so supportive. And for me,

it just goes back to this. Like, as a human being, I want to be loved, right? I want to be believed. I want people to like me. And so when I think about my childhood and kind of the way this episode or podcast started, you asked me about that. And I remember from a very young age, just wanting to be loved. Like, that's it. And that, like, the line for me almost started before any addiction. because I would tell people what I thought they wanted to hear if I thought it was going to make them like me more, right? And what I've learned in this experience over the past 12 years, when I just tell the truth,

I'm actually a pretty decent, likable guy, and I'm going to make mistakes like anyone else, but it just makes everything so much easier, you know? How did your first marriage fall apart? To be blunt. I mean, I can give you, I mean, you could guess at that one, but one, I was 25 and I don't know that I even understood what marriage really was. I still don't know if I understand that.

That's why I'm 39 and single, but I was 25 and I just wasn't ready. I wasn't ready for any of it. You know, she was an amazing woman. She was a school teacher, like, could have a glass of wine, could not have a glass of wine, good, great family. And I just put, you know, they kind of say this thing in recovery, like whatever you put in front of your recovery, you're going to lose, right? And it's like the other way around, right? Like I put partying and drugs and alcohol above everything else. And so naturally that caught up to me.

And the real fan, I get like a little emotional talking about it because she truly did save my life. So when I was in rehab the first time, it's so crazy to think about, we did this, like, family group or whatever it was. And basically, like, me and my wife at the time, Jen made this contract. And it essentially said, like, if I got drunk or high again, she was going to leave me. And it's so hard for family members to honor those types of contracts. And I got out of treatment and I broke the contract. And she came in the room and she basically said, this is it. Like, I'm done.

You know, I'm not doing this. She's like, I love you. I don't love this. And her dad came down to the house that night when she figured it out. I'm like, she stood so strong. And I needed that. I needed that. And that resulted in me kind of going on this eight month run when I knew she was really leaving.

When I knew she was actually saying like the party. over that took me to some pretty deep dark places that I had to get to and and ultimately back into rehab the second time when you say you know the vows in sickness and in health would you consider what do you think about that and her leaving I think she did the right thing I think I don't blame I don't blame I don't her at all. I don't. I mean, and there's not it. There wasn't even a moment early on where I blamed her. I totally understood it because I just wasn't. I think I've always been a good person. I don't think I was behaving in a good way. And, and there is no one on this planet that should have put up with

that. And the reality is, like, my dad and my one of my best friends, this guy Anthony, were like the last two guys to kind of hang in with me most of the people were kind of decided to do the same thing she did which is like this is too much that's powerful because you know i remember you know i i believe in a god above and so that's part of my story as well and i remember um you know during this time friendships were leaving and you know romantic relationships were ending and not necessarily they knew why, but I just wasn't, I was sketchy. I was a little bit like, I was lying half of my life, I guess, most of my life, 100% of my life. And the prayer that I prayed, I remember I woke up one morning after making a really terrible

decision and I looked myself in the mirror and I looked at myself in the eyes in the mirror, which I'd never do. It's a really weird thing to do. It's like stare inside your soul. And I just remember this feeling of that you're not the man you ever wanted to be. And so my realization now, and so I prayed to God, God, please intervene if you're there. And I believe God did. And that's my story.

But the interesting part of that looking back now is like I, the people that left me, I was never mad at. Like, I was never like, you know, screw you. It was almost more upset with myself at times because I felt like, like, I knew I wasn't a good dude. I thought I was, you know, people would say, you know, been so nice. Well, yeah, he's always really friendly. But, like, in my heart, like, I knew that I wasn't a good dude and, or I wasn't behaving in a way that I wanted to behave, like, make me the man that I wanted to be or I dream of. Was it thought through my head. And so I relate with that. Do you believe you're a good guy today? Like, have you gotten, have you come around? I have a comfortable, I have a comfortable

perspective on on uh myself which means do i think i am the perfect guy that uh um in my head i could be no do i feel good about the way that i treat people i treat myself the honesty that i live my life with the way that i treat my wife and my family and my friends yes i feel very good about that because i my intention is really good now i don't have yeah hidden secrets do i think i'm uh you know the best dude no i have terrible moments uh but i can forgive myself now because they're true moments like they're not lying moments they're not me trying to fake it they're they're honest um and so that's what helps me uh i guess say yeah i'm human like i'm not perfect and that's okay i'm good um anything to that i just think it's amazing like i look at you i see a cool guy

i think someone like someone i'd probably like to have a beer with or hang out with you know like whatever it is and i think for whoever listens to this or sees this i think it's really powerful to just and Ashley is like sitting over there finally but like to hear two guys so interested going back and forth like this and and I always thought it was so weak to talk about my feelings or be honest or like you know like I grew up and at home where it's like you know give me 20 pushups and take out the trash right and that was like that was toughness um and now today I think it's tough to like hop on a podcast with you guys and just like lay it all out there and not give a shit what people think about it because at the end of the day the people that are

judging me, I don't really care anyway. Yeah. The weird things, Zach, I just selfishly in person, I got to share this, that, you know, I wrote this part of my book, and then it comes out, and then, like, it became the interview that everybody wanted. People magazine was like, hey, let's talk about your addiction. It's like, this is, this is a big part of my life, but it's also a very small part of my life. Like, this is four years of my life. This is not my complete story. And I remember this. I was visiting my family, and we had just the night before kind of talked through this, and they were saying they were proud of me for speaking up on this, and they believed it was important and all these things, and I was feeling great.

And I was like, you know, I got a great family. They love me, and I got a great wife. She loves me, and they get it. You know, my in-laws were there, and they love me. You know, they get it. And People magazine posted this picture of me, and, you know, the headline was like, admits to addiction or something. And the comments were awful, man.

Like, they were, oh, you know, so sorry for Ben for having an addiction 10 years ago. Didn't we all? Like, what a headline grabber. And then, like, it crushed me. It might have been the weakest, like, moment. I vividly remember sitting on the beach in Florida looking out at the ocean being like, I mean, I could, yeah, it just, like, it threw me in a place that I did not want to go back to. and so I think as you're saying how important it is to speak openly about this I believe it is it did build some grit inside me where I said no screw it screw those people like that's not the

people I'm talking to that's not the people that need to hear this but it's also important like you say as you were saying to to respect these stories with love and compassion no matter where they are or what they're at or how you know how dramatic they seem to or how undramatic they seem. They are human stories and we need to, you know, respect them. And so I share that to say, yeah, that sucked. That wasn't that long ago. That sucked. That was two years ago. It threw me in a bad place. You know, for me, it's an interesting thing that the show gave me a lot more confidence in my story than I originally had going into it because I was allowed to, you know, at some point just said, no, I can't, I can't be in an environment. And it was actually

one of the producers, Alon Gail, came to me and said, hey, I don't like you because I don't know you because you don't let anybody get to know you. And I know there's more to you than what you're sharing. And that was a four-hour sit-down with him where I burst out. And I was like, yeah, I feel unlovable. I feel unlikable. I feel like nobody knows me because I don't allow anybody to know me.

And that gave me the confidence to then step out and say, no, this is this is story I want to share. And that was, you know, one of the parts I want to talk to you about here is you did go on this show. You obviously have an, you know, a depth to you. and a story to you that is powerful, relatable, that isn't uncommon amongst many. And you said, hey, yes, I know this is a part of my story. I know this is a part of my life.

And I'm going to go on this show and now make it public. I would love to hear kind of how this show affected you personally, if it was a positive or negative experience, if, you know, just walk us through kind of your time. Yeah, man. I mean, I don't know if I'm just feeling comfortable today. but like I don't talk about the show a lot and I don't know why I don't know if I've like pushed that part of my life away like I don't know I mean obviously there was a relationship that didn't work out and I'm a super sensitive guy so maybe that's that has something to do with it but I can tell you that I can tell you my thought process leading up to it which it was the middle of COVID right and I'm in New York I'm 36 I'm living this beautiful life I'm running this company like everything was good

like everything was really good you know aside the fact that I probably worked too much and I didn't really put any time aside for to find a partner you know like I got sober and I hit the hit the ground running here in New York City and I was building this company and

all this stuff and the phone rang you know like it does for all of us I guess at some point in time and it was it was LA calling and I'm like I don't what is this you know like what what is this phone call and it was one of the producers and I said, lose my number. Like, I don't know what you're talking about.

And then she got me. I remember, Allie, she's like, is there any chance, though, like your sister? Like, and like, I guess my sister had, like, gone on the whatever and, like, filled out this application. I was like, all right, tell me more. And that's an example of, like, that was my sobriety talking. That was my recovery talking.

That was me saying, like, okay, have an open mind. and just like put one foot in front of the other and then for me the beautiful part was like if I had to fly to L.A. and like sing and dance in front of a bunch of producers or like whatever you got to do like I was able to do all of it like virtually because it was COVID and then in like I mean I think it was like six weeks and where I got to it was like okay like the world is shut down this is an opportunity I have to put the phone down and really see like to your point like if I'm lovable, if I'm capable of love. And I felt really good walking into it because I was very secure in who I was.

And I had told my story plenty of times prior to that. So for me, I was just going to like, my promise to myself is I'm going to walk into this experience. I'm going to be myself and I'm going to try to be as authentic as possible. And I think the biggest thing I'm proud of from that whole thing was watching it back and saying like my friend's saying like that's you like that we saw it like you that is you that is you on tv and like that's the biggest compliment anyone could give me because like I'm sure people show up there and you know they try to act a certain way and they end up shooting

themselves in the foot and it doesn't it doesn't go well and that's why like I could start a whole other thing about like when I hear people say they get a bad edit or whatever like that's foreign to me because like I'm just and maybe I got a good at it I don't know but like what I say is like no one can make me say or do anything and so that was just who I was and that's what I saw right you know so I can I don't know that's just me Zach I was obsessed with you on the show like I was like this I am just obsessed with watching this guy and I know the relationship's over and I know that you're not always comfortable talking about the show you got me playing loose right you better ask now because I'm playing loose.

Okay, if you could just kind of put yourself back in that situation, just for a minute, without knowing what comes of it. Yeah. When Claire laughed and Tasha came in, how did you feel? Well, I think, I mean, if you ask anyone from my season,

I was probably going home the next day if Claire stayed because there was like this comedy thing that I fight, just like it didn't go well for Zach. Like I just had back. jokes. They weren't funny. I kind of like unintentionally made fun of Claire in a way that wasn't so nice. Like my New York and Philly kind of came out. And so like I was pretty sure I was going home like if there was like and then she like runs off with Dale and then we're sitting there

for you know, whatever. And like I will say about all these humans. I love like I've learned to love all of them. The guys, the girl, like every, because I feel like there's that common bond that we all share and you know no matter how messy it gets um so i think for me i was like grateful to kind of have this second opportunity and i was just kind of settling in like i was kind of nervous and timid at the beginning and um you know like night one i didn't talk to claire and then i think i had like one maybe sit down with it you know so it was like it was all very far and i hadn't really watched the show so i didn't know the way that any of the show was supposed to go um you know and then tation walked in and obviously she's beautiful and it's like this new

It was almost like this second opportunity. And at that point, I felt a little bit more, you know, comfortable. Just like it took me a moment to settle in. And from there, like, you know, it was a positive experience. Hi, my name is Enya Jumanzoor. And I'm Drew Phillips. And we run a podcast called Emergency Intercom. If you're a crime junkie and you love.

crimes, we're not the podcast for you. But if you have unmedicated ADHD... Oh my God, perfect. And want to hear people with mental illness, psychobabble. Yes, yes. Then Emergency Intercom is the podcast for you. Open your free IHeartRadio app. Search Emergency Intercom and listen now.

The U.S. Open is here. And on my podcast, Good Game with Sarah Spain, I'm breaking down the players from rising stars to legends chasing history. The predictions will we see a first-time winner? and the pressure. Billy Jean King says pressure is a privilege, you know. Plus, the stories and events off the court, and of course the honey deuses,

the signature cocktail of the U.S. Open. The U.S. Open has gotten to be a very fancy, wonderfully experiential sporting event. I mean, listen, the whole aim is to be accessible and inclusive for all tennis fans, whether you play tennis or not. Tennis is full of compelling stories of late. Have you heard about Icon Venus Williams' recent wildcard bids? or the young Canadian, Victoria Mboko, making a name for herself.

How about Naomi Osaka getting back to form? To hear this and more, listen to Good Game with Sarah Spain, an IHeart Women's Sports Production, in partnership with deep blue sports and entertainment on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports. Hi, I'm Kurt Brown-Oller. And I am Scotty Landis, and we host Bananas, the Weird News Podcasts with wonderful guests like Whitney Cumming.

and tackle the truly tough questions. Why is cool mom an insult, but mom is fine? No. I always say, Kurt's a fun dad. Fun dad and cool mom. That's cool for me. We also dig into important life stuff. Like, why our last names would make the worst hyphen ever?

My last name is Cummings. I have sympathy for nobody. Yeah, mine's brown-oiler, but with an H, so it looks like brown-holler. Okay, that's, okay, yours might be worse. We can never get married. Listen to this episode with Whitney Cummings and check out new episodes of bananas every Tuesday on the exactly right network.

Listen to bananas on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Imagine that you're on an airplane and all of a sudden you hear this. Attention passengers. The pilot is having an emergency and we need someone, anyone, to land this plane. Think you could do it?

It turns out that nearly 50% of men think that they could land the plane with the help of air traffic control. And they're saying like, okay, pull this, until this. Pull that. Turn this. It's just. I can do my eyes close. I'm Manny. I'm Noah. This is Devin.

And on our new show, no such thing. We get to the bottom of questions like these. Join us as we talk to the leading expert on overconfidence. Those who lack expertise lack the expertise they need to recognize that they lack expertise. And then, as we try the whole thing out for real, wait, what? Oh, that's the run right. I'm looking at this thing. Listen to no such thing on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

This show's such a unique experience. And I think, you know, Zach, I relate. Like, I feel like I got a good edit then. Or that, you know, when people watch it, they're like, yeah, that's the guy I know back home is. boring and as, you know, simple as I seemed, you know, my buddy's like, yeah, it's you. Like, we can, we can watch you. And that gave me some confidence going into it. You know, I relate with your desire to go on the show. Also, you know, there was a secret hope inside of me that maybe I would have a cooler story to tell of my life to my friends. Hey, I went on the Bachelor at one

point. Or I was on the Bachelorette at one point. Like, I thought that would bring some interest and intrigue to my life. And there was also a side of me, it was like, I just want, you know, to test myself if like I am the person that I think I am or if I am still charming because I was 25 years old, 24 years old. I was two years out of this thing for me. And so I was still trying to figure myself out. And that's why the show was so helpful when Alon in all of his wisdom and Alanness and said, hey, I don't like. Only he met Alon. Yeah. And just said, I don't like you because I don't know you. And I was like, man, you're hitting some place. I don't want to hit, and then, you know, everything comes out.

You obviously now, and I know Ashley wants to dig in a little bit to the proposal into this, you know, into that part. But that's how I feel in this moment with you guys even talking right now. It's like, you know, where a lot like, like something Ashley said, like make me feel comfortable talking with you guys about this. And I think like any podcast I go on, it's like, yeah, I'll talk about anything but the show. I'm like, what is that saying about me, you know?

it's like that that that's like there's something there right and I have to like I can either look at it or or not like the truth is that shows change my life and like I do you know fly that flag when I when I can because it's allowed me to help a lot of people and and have some pretty cool experiences and you know you take to go with them bad in any situation so I don't know I mean that was my question to you is you know obviously you are more closed off to the show and for me it is such an important part of my life and it will always be a big part of my story because of the relationship that came from it and the relationship that ended from it and then my journey to find my wife kind of offhanded through it and all these great things

that have happened me from it and I just wondered if you look back on your time now with the relationship over obviously that came from the show and your job now and say what has came from your experience on the show that that was my question to you is when you look back now like How has it changed your life? I probably don't stop and think about it enough, you know, and give it enough, uh, give myself enough credit, you know, like I don't, like if I'm being really honest with you,

I think there's probably times where I'm like, you know, like kind of the stuff you were talking about earlier with like the guilt and the shame, like I don't know, like, are other guys going to respect me as someone who went on this show? you know, like, are other guys going to judge me? And, like, at my core, I know that that's just me giving my power away to some bullshit narrative that's not true because it did take a lot of balls to, like, show up there and, like, lay it all in the line.

And so how is my life changed? I mean, I think, I think in a lot of ways, you know, everything from, like, this weekend, like being out with my friends who have known me for 20 years and someone asked for a picture and they're like, dude, this is just so crazy. like i just don't it doesn't like to them it's still very like every time it happens like it just doesn't make sense because i'm just zapped to them you know and like um to like having some unbelievable like just experiences like the things that i've gotten to do that i wouldn't have otherwise gotten to do but the real way i think that it has changed my life is a lot to do with

what we talked about today which is i have been able to you know get really comfortable telling my story. I think I've had more people write me, tell me that I've changed their life or saved their life. And I don't give that enough credit. And to your point, Ben, like, you know, I believe, like I grew up Presbyterian, but I believe in God. My God might be a little bit different than your God or Ashley's got, but I believe in God and I believe that it was meant to happen for this purpose that I could get out there and show people that there's another way to live and if I can do it that anyone can. You know, that's really at the end of the day, like the simplest answer to that question. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Well, just to put yourself back in that position,

thinking about your time on the show, for me, I just loved watching you guys fall in love. been open that I love charity and Dotten's season, but the one that made me feel before that was yours. So there was like a three-year drought in that. Your proposal is something that I'll always remember. I think it was the last time I cried during a proposal. And I remember this one thing that you guys kind of shared together. You were like every other love before this, like, this is like the first real, like this is a love above any other love I've ever experienced. And this was you saying this is a 36 year old guy. So how do you look back on, saying that and feeling that now, now that it's over?

Yeah, it's a loaded question. I appreciate it. Thank you for asking. You know, I meant it. I meant it at the time. You know, I felt it at the time. And, you know, like the thing I always say is like two good people don't always make a good relationship. you know and that's i think my experience there like for whatever reason uh there just was

never like this it just never you know like like in the moment i guess to answer your question like in the moment it felt it felt real felt right it was all those things and you know i wouldn't change anything i don't live in regret um you know it's a very special moment in time in my life regardless of what happened and i think that's i think that's i think that's full answer. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Give me the things that are real. It's one of the things I like to live by. And that obviously, this show, you know, for as goofy as it is and for as wild as it is and for as disrespect as it can be fairly by the public, there are moments within it that are real and that we, you know, talk about here that cross into reality. Like the show becomes a part of reality.

And I think for you, as we watch that, it was real. And I think hearing you say, yeah, it was is like not only comforting. It's just exciting for me because it's one of the things that we like to stand on here is, hey, this is going to affect your life. Good or bad. If you're not yourself, it's going to affect your life. If you are yourself, it's going to affect your life. If you fall in love and you're honest about it, it's going to affect your life. It's just going to be a part of you because it's a time in your life. You're not like leaving, you know, the world to do this. And so I think for me, it's exciting for you to admit to that because a lot of people don't or a lot of people, you know, hold on to an anger or vengeance or say, hey, like, I was just confused and it was too fast, too soon, all these things. It's like, well, you felt it at the time. And so that shows you something. Yeah, I might be in the minority.

Like, I would never blame a producer. I would never, like, I'm a big boy. Like I said what I did, what I did. I meant it all. like and uh you know to your point guys it's like the number one question i think i get to ask for people that like meet me and then they think they have my ear for a second like what was it real i'm like it's real for me like every moment was real like from sitting in between filming and like it was all real you know yeah part of a tv show but like real i was there i did it

i said it those things happened like it was very real for me um so much so uh that You know, maybe that's why I don't talk about it as much, you know, I don't know. Yeah. Well, on a lighthearted note, another thing that you guys could bond over is the fact that you are like a triathlons, but you do marathons, you run a ton. This guy runs a ton. He's about to do a triathlon. This is something that is so beyond me. Yeah, I'm about to do a triathlon in October.

A full? No, goodness, no. I'm not ready for that. My goal is a full next year at 35 will be my. first full. I've been doing sprints for years, which is a whole new training. If you commit to a full, I'll commit to a full with you. This swimming scares the shit out of me, though. Let's do a full together. I think right here, somebody's going to listen to this and have a connection to a full, and I want to put it into my life. Bad knees and all, I want to put it into my life. If you're

in, I'm in. I got buddies that are training for him now. It's insane, but yeah. Does running and recovery have a lot to do with each other? I think the running community is very similar to the recovery community and that it's just a group of really good people kind of coming together around a common bond and, you know, they're just like my people, like the running community are just the nicest, kindest people. I think for me, from a mental health perspective, running, I would be terrified if I ever got hurt because there are many, many, many days where, you know, the prayer is not working, the meditation isn't working, like something's just off.

And I go off for a run to clear the mind because that is just a tool that I've picked up over the years and it's really, really helped me, like the cheesy saying, I think, is like move a muscle change of thought, but that's just works for me, for real. Yeah. Yeah, for me, it's never been, you know, I have friends and people that I know who have had some type of mental health or addiction things happen in their life. And, you know, exercise is a good way for them to kind of cope with it. For me, it's never been a coping mechanism. Honestly, why I exercise every day is because at 34 years old and at 24 years old, I want to be in the better shape next year than I was this year just so I can function and be like, kind of like,

I have a big enough ego where I'm like, I just, I want to be in better shape next year than I was this you, I'm not allowing this to catch up with me. So that's more of my drive. It's like, I feel better about myself. But it's never, those two things haven't ever really related with me. I didn't, one wasn't a response to the other. Ashley, are you a runner? Are you a runner?

I'm not, I wish I could be an exerciser. I just am not. I'm so jealous. I haven't done it since before. My son was born. I was in the best shape of my life, working out like four to five times a week. And it just dropped off after that. I feel like he himself as like a 30 pound weight is enough exercise for me around the house all day.

That might be my stock answer. I really wish I could be an exerciser, but it's just not for me. You guys are honestly inspiring me. I'm trying to, I'm feeling the way that I did in my body after a workout. It is a good feeling. I'm going to totally switch the topic right now because I know we have to wrap up, but I think this is a really important note to hit on. And then I'm going to let Ben and you have your final moment.

um narcan is something that is behind you now and something that is so important these days as it well you can tell the people what it does and what do you what do you think about like people just carrying it even if they're like not at all in the environments in which fentanyl would be present yeah yeah i think the easiest so so the real quick is narcan is an overdose reversal drug. So if someone is overdosing, you spray it up their nose and it helps reverse to affect someone overdose and can literally save a life. I've personally witnessed and know people that are alive because of Narcan. And the reason it's out in front more is, one, it's going to be over the counter starting in September, which is a huge, huge, huge

twin just means you can walk into a pharmacy and buy it. Two, we lost over 70,000 people last year to opiate-related overdoses and over 100,000 people to overdoses in general. So it's clearly affecting our country. And three, with fentanyl out on the streets, fentanyl, as I described earlier, is a synthetic opiate. So it's man-made. It's 50 times stronger than any other opiate you're going to find out there. And literally, like, a salt pebble could send someone into an overdose. And what's happening is that fentanyl is being put into not just fake pills, but into marijuana, into cocaine, into drugs that, you know, you show up as a college freshman and you see your first line of cocaine like I did and you do that,

there's a chance that could be leased with fentanyl. So it's not just about substance use disorder. It's about just living in the world. Yeah. I mean, like, so the easiest way for me to explain it to your question about like, hey, do you just carry this around? I would say that most homes in America have a fire extinguisher, right? And I looked it up because I'm going to do a reel on this because I think it's genius. But I looked it up and there's like, you know, there were like 3,000 residential fire deaths last year in America, which is like a big number still and like scary. But every home in America has a fire extinguisher. Everyone knows what that is. I just gave the numbers about overdose, right? 100,000. And a lot of people don't even know what Narcan is. So yes, you

should have it. Yes, you should carry it around. If you need a way to find it or access it, you can certainly write me. It's a huge passion of mine just because I know it's probably going to get better before it gets worse, but that's my that's my schick on Narcan for right now. Quick follow up because I'm thinking for the audience right now. I'm obviously a huge proponent of it, but I think that there's probably people wondering, well, if there's a overdose rescue drug. Isn't that just going to encourage people to just continue with their addiction further? You can't treat people that are dead. Good answer.

So keep them alive and, you know, show them some love and hopefully they can find it. I mean, that's why, you know, we could do a whole other episode on the multiple pathways to recovery and harm reduction versus, like, for me, like total abstinence to, the guy sitting next to me that you know like Ben might have had a pill problem and is still able to have a couple beers on a Saturday night like there's and they're all fine right they're all fine as long as you're able to look at it

with an open mind and love one another so well buddy thanks for coming on stay in touch and thanks for sharing this you know there's a few key points I want to point out one um it's beautiful

hearing it too is you know for you not to over drama your path because I think it happens so often and I think that's it can be dangerous for multiple levels one family hearing it to the person going through it like the over dramatization of it can make it feel a lot like just like a lot more chaotic than maybe it is and then the other point I want to point out is just the consistency and coming to somebody with love and compassion and not always knowing how to do it well but coming to them with love and compassion and is going to save many lives. And I hope this podcast and the people

listening hear this and they say, hey, we always loved Zach. We watched him on television like Ashley did. We fell in love with Zach and we fell in love with his story. And yes, this was a piece of his story on the show. But it wasn't why we fell in love with him. We fell in love with him because who he is. He's a good looking dude. He's charming. He's nice. He was open. He was honest. He was vulnerable. All of these things. But then we we respect Zach for what he's doing now, what he did before. And I do. I believe when you do this stuff, people are listening. And as you said at the beginning, and this is we will close with, if one person, one's person's life is saved because, or changed, let's not say saved,

changed for the better, because listening in this episode, it's all been worth it. And it's been worth it to do for the last eight years then, um, outside of everything else. So Zach Clark, thanks for coming on. Thanks for being honest. Thanks for talking to us. We appreciate it. we'll talk to you again soon. Thanks, guys. If I can help you in any way, let me know. It's great to see you. It's been such a pleasure.

Thank you so much for giving us your time. Peace. Bye. Bye. This has been a important, incredible, fantastic, honest, vulnerable, interesting conversation was Zach Clark.

It's the offseason here at the Almost Famous Podcast. It doesn't mean we're going to be away. We'll be back putting out new episodes and new content for all of you and for us. until the Golden Bachelor starts, and Bachelor in Paradise starts. So until next time, I've been Ben. I've been Ashley. Bye, guys.

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