The Ben and Ashley I Almost Famous Podcast - Breaking News: A conversation about Cornell

Episode Date: October 4, 2026

This episode discusses sexual violence, which may be difficult or triggering for some listeners. If you or someone you know has experienced sexual violence, support is available through the RAINN National Sexual Assault Hotline at 800-656-HOPE (4673) or rainn.org.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. I'm Melissa Jeltson, host of the What Happened to Her podcast. We're kicking off the season with the Sandra Birchmore story, a case the police rode off as a suicide in a snowstorm. Her family never bought it, and the man they suspected wore a badge. You never know who that devil is because he's wearing in disguise. Sometimes it's a police uniform.

And you can get access to all episodes 100% ad-free with an I-Heart True Crime Plus subscription, exclusively on Apple Podcasts, available only to IHeart True Crime Plus subscribers. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for IHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today. Lisa, tell them about our new show. We have a new podcast. It's called Don't Lie to Me. I'm Lexi Youanu. We're two best friends, 22 years apart, but so close at heart. And I'm Lisa Di Giulio, the old one, which means we have wildly different references, occasionally different opinions and at this point in my 50s, I've lived it all. Now in my 30s, being the founder of new shoes, good taste is my business. Listen on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your

podcasts. Hi, this is Kylie Breakman. Angel Geratana. Jeremy Colhane, Patrick McDonald. And we're the hosts of the Artists on Artists on Artists on Artists Podcast. The improvised character comedy podcast where each week a new panel of artists discuss their craft. Join us for a panel of Eurovision participants. And we do a little Halloween sometimes. Does the Pope dress up? He winks on Halloween. He gets right up next to the microphone.

I hear you can almost hear the eyelashes hit each other. You never seen Italy so quiet as when the Pope gets up to wink on Halloween. Listen to Artists on Artists on Artists every Thursday on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Lacey Mosley, author, actor, stand-up comedian, creator, and host of Scam Goddess podcast. The True Crime Comedy Podcasts all about robbery, fraud, and those who practice it. Each week I bring

on an amazing guest. Ooh, I scammed them. What? I can talk to you for an hour. You're a generational yapper, like me. That's why I had to make yapping a job. And now you can catch full episodes of my show on YouTube. Start listening to Scam Goddess on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever

you get your podcast. I'm Carrie Champion, and in this new season of biggest rivalries of all-time podcast, We take you back to the very first rivalry of the WNBA. The Comets were to real deal. I mean, come on. The Liberty was just tough.

Oh, God. The New York Liberty versus the Houston Comets. When we hit the floor, it was hot, heated, fights, elbows, competition, trash talking. Who is the better team? People live, but numbers don't. Listen to biggest rivalries of all time on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. The following episode will be discussing themes of sexual assault. If you or anyone you know is a victim of sexual assault or abuse,

call Rain's Sexual Assault Hotline at 1-800-656-56-hope. That's 1-800-656-4673. Hi, everybody. This is Jen Fessler. Welcome to Dirty Rush. I've got Elisa Donovan with me. Hi, everybody. Hi, and we are here to talk about some breaking news.

We're going to talk about what's going on at Cornell. We are talking to a couple of reporters, one from PR, one from CBS. This is extremely difficult and important and information that we are gathering here in real time. And they're going to give us some of the facts. You know, there are a lot of feelings about all of this. And so it's important to get some real specific information, I think. Agreed. And we feel like it's also really important.

here at Dirty Rush since what we do is talk about Greek life. We do a lot of happy stories, happy Greek life stories. This is not one of them, but this is a really important conversation to have. Let's welcome in CBS News correspondent, Lillia Luciano. So for anybody who hasn't, who's just hearing about this Cornell 7 case, which is a troubling name, can you walk us through what Jane Doe alleges happened that night and how the seven men became connected to the case? Well, we've learned the names of these seven men because of a civil lawsuit that Jane Doe filed earlier this month. In it, she claims that there were seven men at various points of the night within a period of approximately, it could be anywhere between five and seven hours. It seems

she allegedly arrived at the fraternity house at around or after 11 p.m. And that what she's saying were these non-consensual encounters began at around or after 140 a.m. At least we know from the timestamp of the Snapchat videos or the Snapchat conversation that have a time, that's after 1 a.m., after 140. And according to the civil complaint, it all ended. at around 5.40 a.m. So anywhere between, you know, seven and five hours. She says that at various times, there were a total of seven men in and out of one room

and that she was in a state that she was so intoxicated according to the civil lawsuit that she couldn't possibly give consent, that the men, she doesn't specifically say that she engaged in, sexual activities or that she was raped by all seven, but she describes being in the middle of threesomes, even after she at one point said that she just couldn't perform anymore because she was out of it. And also there was one moment where she says that, and this according to the first statement that she gave police after this happened, a few weeks after, kind of laying down

and a group of men were snorting or doing ketamine off of her body. Her attorney has been very clear in saying, look, even if her initial statements to police, even though in the statements to police, she talked about feeling like she was rejecting the advances, you know, that she was swapping away some of the men's hands from her body, the DA interpreted her statement as everything was consensual and I can't find a crime here. Her attorney has been saying, look, in cases of sexual trauma, and this is something that the district attorney acknowledged as well in the interviews I did with him.

It takes time to go from, you know, denial, he says, to shame, to coming to terms with something that could be considered rape. and what we know is the university, Cornell University, completed a full investigation that lasted for several months. And after that investigation, they expelled two students. They suspended two students. They found two students not to be responsible for sexual misconduct. And one student did not testify. and I believe he graduated before the proceedings ended.

The question that a lot of people have in which I have posed to the district attorney and to the university, but the university is not responsive in a direct way. They just direct us to these statements that they have a line is how can someone find actions, actionable in expelling at least two students, and not present those findings to a district attorney or to an outside police agent. This is kind of the crux of the story. The university completed its investigation. It took four months.

They interviewed more than 30 witnesses, including the respondents or what you would call defendants in a criminal case. And in more than 50 interviews and arrived at these conclusions that we're trying to obtain. to obtain, but because these were Title IX investigations, they're confidential. They did not present those findings to the district attorney. And the district attorney, the only thing he says that he received after what happened was a police statement that Jane Doe gave to police just weeks after the encounter, which he considered did not show enough evidence to a crime to present charges. and the Snapchat video with the chat that now everyone has seen or heard about, at least on social media or in news coverage,

where some of the men were sending messages inviting others to partake in these sexual activities in a very vulgar and disrespectful and, you know, concerning way. How did those text messages get leaked? Did one of the fraternity members actually tell the authorities? So what I understand from speaking with attorneys and with the district attorney, I'm trying to remember how, who reported this first, but basically, I'm trying to remember how, how this came out, but somebody who was in the chat, not sure of it was somebody who was in the room at all or who interacted with Jane Doe that night, but somebody who was in that chat. but somebody who was in that chat and there were dozens of frat members in that chat took a video of the chat and sent it to Jane Doe. So this is something that her attorney had and I believe she gave that to police. But I'm not sure if that's how. What I do know is that police at that point only interviewed Jane Doe. So all the evidence they had to determine whether there was a crime or not was based on this on two days of interviews.

One day she was interviewed, the second day they drafted a statement for her to review, approve, and sign as a sworn statement. And I've read that statement various times. And that statement in itself is very concerning. I think, you know, law enforcement, sure, has a higher bar and the DA has a higher bar for crime. One thing that the DA explained to me is the rules of the university say that consent means affirmatively saying, yes, the rules for the New York legal system is you have to say no or be unconscious and, you know, somebody violates that and then that constitutes a crime. It seems like an incredibly high bar compared to the university one. But if the university did conduct such a thorough investigation, the question

remains, why wouldn't they present that to law enforcement? So, yeah, before we came on, we're talking about it was it was it a 10 page statement it was a six page excuse me but before we came on I saw a report that that there was also a one page or a two page statement where she was very clear and said she was raped when did that happen right so there is there is a there's a number of places and and and either health care workers or officials or law enforcement who heard from her she a couple of days after the incidents went to a clinic. And she went to a clinic to ask for, you know,

STD tests and treatment for, for UTI. And she alleged, and this according to the, to the investigation from the university, she explained to whoever treated her that this UTI was the result of trauma. They did not refer, they said you should talk to somebody, but they did not order,

rape kit. They did not seem to question her further or even take this to the police. When she goes and she reports it to police, in the room with her was an investigator or a representative from the university's Title IX investigation or Title IX office. What I understand from what the DA told me is that there is a transcript which CBS News New York reported first this week. of the interviews that she had with police. And I have not seen that transcript. I want to be clear, but our colleagues at W-CBS, CBS, CBS, New York,

read parts of that transcript. So this is a transcript of the interviews she did with police. She did two days of interviews. That transcript may have been gathered by the Title IX investigator or representative, the person who was there with her while she was speaking with Cornell University Police. The discrepancy between a statement in that transcript, and what ended up in the statement is alarming because according to the transcript, she said,

I can say with 100% confidence I was raped. That did not end up in the statement that the district attorney read to decide whether or not to pursue charges. I asked the district attorney, you know, is this an omission? What does this mean? And if there was a crime, even after the university completed its investigation and had their 12 hearings, and there was some, something that was omitted or somebody found evidence of a crime and covered it up in any way, could that be prosecutable? I mean, could somebody face charges for that? And he said, absolutely, that they are going to look into everything.

How then the university carried out their investigation, how the police gathered their evidence, and why didn't a statement so alarming end up in the sworn statement she gave? I had read that as well what you just very eloquently and articulately explained, and I thought, how on earth is this possible? And one thing that I think is important to learn from this case as you zoom out is what I have heard from the DA explained to me what the university has been saying through their statements is that a Title IX investigation is, confidential. Its findings are confidential and that the university is banned by federal law from sharing those results. I've been consulting legal experts and even within CBS to try and understand,

is that true? Is it true that everything that comes out of a Title IX investigation, even if they find a crime is confidential and the university cannot present its findings? And what I've learned is that they cannot make public identifiable information of the people being investigated. But that does not mean that if they find evidence of something that could rise to the level of a crime that they can't or shouldn't present it to a district attorney.

I mean, imagine it's unfathomable. It wasn't presented at all in this case. So the university never had any, there was never crossover between the university and the district attorney's office? In fact, the district attorney, the district attorney dealt with this case in 2024. After she interviewed with Cornell University Police,

over a period of two days, those findings, quote-unquote findings, that evidence, which was just the statement and the Snapchat, that is what was given to the district attorney. At that point, the district attorney tells the university, tell her she can come here, here and we can speak with her and we can go over why we decided not to pursue charges,

the district attorney only learns new information through this civil lawsuit. Yet I reported throughout this week that the university had said, and I took a screenshot of this because I just, I found this alarming as well. In their statements, which they refer us to when we ask for comment, the university posted a statement with a frequently asked questions list. And there's a question that asks, did Cornell police adequately investigate the incident? Why didn't they bring in the ethical police? And the first line in the initial statement last week was the Cornell University Police Department investigated the matter in 24 and shared all investigatory information with the Tompkins County District Attorney's Office.

That was back then. All the investigatory information, we're talking about just the victim's statement a few weeks after what happened and the Snapchat. They just, changed their statement online. Now it reads, I just, I saw this because NPR reported it and my jaw drop because I have been, I had been reading their initial statements, so I had a very clear in my mind and won and found it. Now they're more specific. The Cornell University Police Department investigated the matter in 2024 and shared the victim's sworn statement and the Snapchat screenshots with the Tompkins County District Attorney's Office, which established protocol if the department believes it's a, that a possible crime has occurred. Well, nobody,

really investigated. And this is not, you know, the district attorney's not off the hook. I've read the statement too. And there are, there are statements in that, in that statement that she gave to the police that are very concerning. There is one where she says that she felt, and I'm not, I'm paraphrasing, I'd have to find the text, but there is one where she very clearly says, I wasn't, they should have known that I was not in a position to consent. It's one of the last lines in the statement. She says, she's talking about the last threesome. And she says, I don't remember how that threesome started, but I do remember that two of the men were asking me to have sex so many times that I finally gave me. That felt like coercion. Also, I felt like due to my intoxication,

they should have known how intoxicated I was based on how I was luring my work. words, when a district attorney reads that, the amount of people that she's, that were in and out, that she's pointing fingers to, the Snapchat, I mean, I would expect, and I'm not apparent, but I would expect that they dive deeper, that they investigate on their own, that they at least have the ethic of police become involved. A lot of the claims she makes here, and what the district attorney just says is, look, the New York law says, if you take drugs voluntarily, and because of that, you become impaired to the point that you can't consider that coercion, that's not illegal. Moving on.

This sounds like there could be more people could be indicted than just these boys. That sounds like there's some misconduct. Well, a lot more people are facing that civil suit. The complaint names everyone from even the bar she went to before. But I wonder, we don't have in our hands the full thousand page or so report that came out of that investigation. How much and who had it? It seems that the Title IX internal nature and confidential nature of that investigation certainly shields the university from having to report the crime. Not sure what police knew at the time, but this is all, this is what.

what the district attorney's looking into, what they're diving into to understand who knew what, when, and if anything was, and, you know, and I asked the district attorney too, the first, I've interviewed him twice and I've spoken with him a total of three times. The first time we spoke, I said, campus police is as good as a regular police agency. Don't they work for the university? Wouldn't you suspect that there is a conflict of interest there? Yeah, yeah, yeah. He said they are, they're peace officers, they are trained, they're equipped. In fact, he told me the person who interviewed her has extensive experience in dealing with victims of trauma.

He had full trust. And then the transcript story comes out that she allegedly said, I can say with 100% confidence I was raped. And now he's backtracking and saying, well, if that is true, then I am concerned. Then we won't do it. Yeah, Lillia, before we have to let you go, tell me who exactly is being named in the civil law school, the civil lawsuit. Is it just Cornell? There is court. Let me look for the lawsuit. I have it here. But the civil lawsuit includes the seven men. It includes the fraternity, leadership within the fraternity. It includes the university. It includes the bar. Here it is. Kai Phi chapter house association, Cornell University, other parts of Greek, of the Greek organizations or corporations.

Her fraternity is named here, Tri-Delta. Her sorority. I'm sorry, her sorority. The nightclub, the bar and nightclub. Why are they? Why are that so interesting? I wonder why they're named it because they were. That she wasn't protected from this situation.

And then the seven defendants. And I've spoken with some of their attorneys, and, you know, they're really concerned about them being grouped together. There seems to be a spectrum of blame and of possible criminality if it is found eventually. And they're concerned because, I mean, at least one of the defendants, and I've talked to his attorney several times, he says, look, he did not have any kind of sexual encounter with her. and she does not allege that in the lawsuit. At no point does she say that my client even touched her. She just says that he was in the room, especially when the ketamine was being consumed.

What she alleges is that he was among those who consumed ketamine. He went through a drug test, a follicle test, those hair tests, and it showed no evidence. It showed that he did not consume ketamine within the period that it should appear in his system. So, you know, they're saying he's being grouped. The attorneys are being docks. They're receiving death threats. He says, you know, if his, he says it's been overwhelming and unfair.

And he is among the two students who were not suspended or expelled and were found not to be responsible for any of the sexual misconduct. So does that mean it's possible that he could not be culpable in any way, even though he was there in the room. He has no, he's not guilty of anything. What the attorney says is, look, the Snapchat is, is, is despicable or disgusting or so I can't remember his wording, but they're recognizing that, you know, this is not, this was not okay, but that he did not participate? And I specifically asked, did he witness anything non-consensual when he was in that room? Did he see anything? He said he did not witness anything that appeared to him to be non-consensual.

So it's, you know, there's a lot to understand, to break down, to get down to the facts. And the fact that all of this was confidential allows for a lot of space for speculation and for condemnation and with reason. Yeah. And lastly, just tell me, when does this turn into a criminal case? So obviously it's, and does it even have to be filed by her or now is it going to, you know, is the state now going to pursue this criminally? Oh, the state is pursuing it. They are opening an investigation and they will make recommendations at some point.

They still haven't spoken with Jane Doe. For some odd reason, Jane Doe's attorney has been extremely hard to reach because he was on vacation. What I heard was that he was on vacation in Ireland or something. So he's been very hard to reach for the media. and even for the DA, who was quite frustrated with not getting through to him. But the last I heard was he was trying to meet with her as early as today, but he was not hearing back from her attorney. At some point, he hopes to interview today.

He says he hopes to receive, I don't know if it's already in his hands, but he was hoping to receive the conclusions, the full document from the internal investigation from Jane Doe's attorney. And if he doesn't receive it from Jane Doe's attorney, all of those documents of what was found in the internal investigation, he will subpoena the university. With everything that's out there, I expect that he will subpoena the university. Right. Yeah. And then it's a grand jury and they'll decide whether to pursue charges against any of the men accused. Where can our listeners go to hear you cover the rest of this?

Well, I've been covering, I will continue covering this on CBS News. I mean, we're broadcast, we're streaming, And we're social media, obviously. I'm on TikTok and Instagram on at Lilia Luciano, Lilia Luciano. With both accents, just in case. So pretty. We share all the coverage between CBS News platforms and myself. And I'll stay on this. There's a lot more to report.

Yeah, well, thank you for joining us. Thank you so appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you for having me. This record is on. Miley is having a moment. Closive shows. So IHart Radio is sending you to experience it all. Life at the Hollywood hotel tickets and a thousand dollars cash. Listen to IHart new music for 10 minutes a day on the

IHart Radio app and click enter. Every day you listen is another chance to win. Stream Miley's new album, Bass Persuades, today. I'm Melissa Jeltson, host of the What Happened to Her podcast. We're kicking off the season with the Sandra Birchmore story, a case the police rode off as a suicide in a snowstorm. Her family never bought it, and the man they suspected wore a badge. You never know who that devil is because he's wearing in disguise. Sometimes it's a police uniform. And you can get access to all episodes 100% ad-free with an IHeart True Crime Plus subscription

exclusively on Apple Podcasts, available only to IHeart True Crime Plus subscribers. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today. Lisa, we should tell them about our new show. Oh my God, Lexi. We have a new podcast. It's called Don't Lie to Me. I'm Lexi Youanu.

We're two best friends, 22 years apart, but so close at heart. And I'm Lisa Di Giulio, the old one, which means we have wildly different references, occasionally different opinions, and at this point in my 50s, I've lived it all. I'm not going to get anywhere fighting. That is wild. I learned that about you today. Now in my 30s, being the founder of new shoes, good taste is my business.

And I've always got something to say. If men were just honest about this, there would be so much more peace in the world. We're gonna talk about dating, relationships, beauty, getting older, and a little wiser. We're best friends, but we don't always agree. Because you told us how accommodating you are. Obviously, I would do what I think I could do

to fight the fight, but there's only so much fight I can Fight. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Liar. Listen on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. I don't really care. Hi, this is Kylie Breakman. Angel Geratana. Jeremy Colhane, Patrick McDonald. And we're the hosts of the Artists on Artists on Artists on Artists Podcast. The Improvised Character Comedy Podcast where each week a new panel of artists discuss their craft. Join us for a panel of wellness influencers. What I try to do is faux journal. I don't know.

Have you guys heard of faux journaling? Yeah, it's reading. It's called reading. So we don't like to use that word anymore. Okay. A panel of New Yorker cartoonists. Have you guys done Terry Gross's Peloton class? No!

I've been dying too. I'm so sorry. I'm seeing a reading of Sadako and the Thousand Paper Cranes by Audra McDonald's at the Wonderland Bookstore. That's crazy. I went to the Wonderland Bookstore. yesterday and I heard Nora Jones do a reading of Zero Dark 30. No way. We'll have to come to the last bookstore, though.

Kim Cottrell is reading the guitar tabs of yesterday. A panel of Eurovision participants. And we do a little Halloween sometimes. Does the Pope dress up? He winks on Halloween. He gets right up next to the microphone. I hear you can almost hear the eyelashes hit each other. You never seen Italy so quiet as when the Pope gets up to wink on Halloween.

Listen to artists on artists on artists on artists on artists On the IHeard radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Lacey Mosley, author, actor, stand-up comedian, creator, and host of Scam Goddess Podcasts. The True Crime Comedy Podcasts all about robbery, fraud, and those who practice it. Each week I bring on incredible guests like Conan O'Brien, Iowa Debris, Lamorne Morris, and Nicole Byer. Ooh, I scammed them.

What? I can talk to you for an hour. You're a generational yapper like me. That's why I had to make yankers. having a job. And the scams run the gamut. I'm talking about scams from the 1800s all the way up to today. I also warn you and keep you safe against scammers.

Call your grandparents. Tell your parents to stop clicking on links, please. And now you can catch full episodes of my show on YouTube. If there's a scam, I'm here to protect you. And I'm also here to laugh with you. So if you like fun, if you like comedy, and you like learning, and protecting yourself from criminals, Start listening to Scam Goddess on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

We are now being joined by Brian Mann, NPR correspondent. Welcome. Hi, Brian. Thanks for having me. Thank you so much for being here. You are on the ground. You're in Ithaca, correct? I'm on Cornell's campus right now talking to students.

There's been a big, what they're calling a public hearing held by the student organization, the student government here tonight. And yeah, hearing a lot of grief and anger and frustration. It's been a pretty heavy evening here. Yeah, no doubt. So what specifically have you been hearing? What is this? Is it a rally? Do you know who's speaking at it?

Yeah, there were many students, also faculty, who talked about what's happened, you know, with this initial incident in 2024, the way that Cornell and the police and the prosecutor handled it. And what I'm hearing is that there is a real loss of trust here. People are concerned and frightened about what they see of a lack of proper sort of systemic response. Through the day today, on this day as we're speaking, you know, there's been growing evidence that when police first interviewed this woman in 2024, she actually described in fairly harrowing detail being sexually assaulted. and some of the details she offered to campus police. The transcript suggests that they were quite intense.

But there's now some suggestion that those details were not passed to the prosecutor before he decided to shut down the investigation. People here have real questions about why that happened. And I think there's going to be a lot of outrage in the days going forward. Yeah, I just heard literally before we got on, I started to hear that the discrepancy between the six-page, and the actual, I guess, one page where she said, I was raped. I mean, that's what you're referring to, yes?

Yeah, it's, it's fairly graphic discrepancy. There were moments in her nuanced testimony to the officer and also to Cornell University officials where she described, and I'm paraphrasing her here, but she described feeling trapped. She described feeling coerced into taking more drugs. She was already heavily intoxicated when she arrived at, at the frat party, at the frat house. By her account, she was coerced into taking more drugs.

And, you know, what's really relevant at this point is that that information appears to have been provided to investigators, but then was not passed up the chain of command to the district attorney. At least that's what he says. He says he was not privy to that information. I think there are also questions, though, given the gravity of what happened on that night two years ago, why the district attorney didn't go ahead and ask questions. Remember, he shut down this investigation before ever talking to this young woman, never asked additional questions.

He relied only on this six page summary. It was signed by her, and he said that that was, you know, really dispositive, that that settled his mind. But given that she was describing a truly troubling incident, you know, seven men in a room with her. She went to police to say that she felt something criminal had occurred. You know, the fact that there was no follow-up, no additional questions, no gathering of phone records or other evidence. I think that there are going to be a lot of questions asked going forward. The governor of New York has called for this independent audit. The state's attorney general, Letitia James, has said

she wants answers. And so I think we're seeing just, you know, the first doors opening on this situation now. Yeah. I heard him say that it was the behavior was despicable. I mean, I'm paraphrasing, despicable, disgusting, you know, unspeakable, and yet it wasn't under New York guidelines, illegal, right? Is that sort of been his response? That's been his narrative so far. And one thing that is interesting is that almost everyone agrees that what happened that night by the description that we've received was pretty awful. So there is this question. then did it rise to the level of being criminal? And I think as we learn more about what this young woman said, I think that's an open question. And obviously, you know, there's a lot of investigation ahead here now,

although it will be very difficult to conduct a proper investigation two years after the fact. You know, a lot of the phone records, the data, the electronic information will be very difficult to collect, you know, physical evidence will be difficult to collect. And so it's going to be challenging to try to re-construct some kind of justice here. What is, what's the biggest difference between what would need to be proven in the civil lawsuit versus a criminal case? Well, that's a profound difference. In the civil case, you know, there is a much lower standard of evidentiary procedure.

A lot more information would be allowed into that trial. This is assuming it all goes forward without some kind of. settlement, the standard of proving liability in a civil lawsuit is much lower. In a criminal case, of course, you have to prove that somebody is guilty beyond reasonable doubt. That's always difficult in sex crime cases. Certainly in a case like this, where the evidence has not been passed through the chain of command, according to what we're hearing today in a fluid way, that makes it even harder. So I think, yeah, the idea of there being a criminal case here will have to see where that goes.

But I think what everyone here is expecting is that most of the action will happen in that civil proceeding. Yeah. What about the president? Where is, you know, has he said anything or she said, I'm not sure. Cornell's president is... It's a man. And what I know is that from their communication with me is that Cornel's... leadership has agreed to at least a somewhat independent investigation. We're really waiting to

see who will run that, how it will be structured, how independent it will actually be, and those questions will be sweeping. It will not just be what happened that night. It will also be, is the campus culture safe? How does Greek life fit into, you know, the wider social life here, the safety of the cultural life? I've spoken to so many people here. And this is really interesting, who say they value Greek life. It's a big part of campus culture here. But at the same time, I've spoken to people who say that they often do not feel safe. They feel like there is a power dynamic that often exists around those parties.

They tend to be. And I'm recounting descriptions that others have said to me that they are very male-dominated, that often the fraternities will structure how the entire party works. they often are able to structure how people arrive, when they're able to leave. And so just some of those very basic dynamics, people are saying we just, we think there's something here that needs reform and change. And so that's going to be part of this investigation, I think, for sure. Of course, the fraternity that's implicated in this case is no longer on campus.

They were banned from campus after the 2024 incident. Tonight in what you're experiencing on campus, is there a gender split or is it men and women that are out there at this kind of, you know, event protest right now? It's a really good question. And I did look at that. And I have to say it looked pretty balanced to me. Most of the speakers were women, but there were a lot of men there. Most of the people I've been speaking to have been women. Most of my interviews, and so most of what I'm recounting to you comes from women, but there were men who testified. And one of the things I specifically heard from a young man, I didn't get his name, is,

is he really spoke about how important it is to keep the focus on the alleged victim in this case, this young woman who has left campus. It does appear that at least some of these men, the seven men involved in this incident, are still on campus, are still enrolled as students. She's gone, however, and this young man who spoke tonight said something I heard over and over again, that there's enormous sorrow for her, for her lost opportunity, for the moment. And, you know, when you go back and look at some of the records of the shame that she reportedly felt, you know, this is a young woman who was trying to have fun. She was trying to be, you know, part of campus cultural life and have a celebration with these people.

And it ended really horribly that night for her. And so there was real sorrow in that room from men and women for her fate. Did she drop out, Brian? Did she graduate? What happened? No, she withdrew. And my understanding from Cornell officials is that they did refund at least part of her tuition. But that is one of the things that people here. Yeah, that's unclear to me.

There's a lot from Cornell that we don't know. But that is one of the things that there's, and I just, I have to use the word rage. There's a real rage here. People believe, and I'm just describing their words to me, they believe that the school has not supported her, that it has not supported victims, that there is not the proper structure. People have the belief that the school is more focused on finances, on its public image, and that when situations like this occur, that there is not enough done for women who experience this. There was a survey done in 2025, released this year, where women here said one in three of them

experience some kind of coercive sexual experience, some kind of sexual experience, some kind of sexual assault during their time at Cornell. And so people are really looking at this incident, as horrific as it was in the description, they're really looking at this as something that's kind of symbolic of a wider problem, and people here really want that to change. Has her name been circulating around? I mean, we haven't heard it happily, I think, if she wants it, if she does want to remain anonymous, but there has her name been circulating?

I think a lot of students do know her, but it is not. being widely spread. Meanwhile, there is an actual public shaming kind of event happening here for the men involved. They're on social media in public spaces. People are saying their names. They have not, to be clear, been charged with any crimes. They are named in the civil lawsuit. But yes, so she has not been named widely. My understanding is that on social media, some people have been doxing her and essentially trying to out her. But at least here on campus, as people are being very protective. The music you love.

I heart. Radio stations. Everywhere you go. The podcasts, everyone's talking about. All in one place. And it's free. I heart radio. Whatever you want to hear.

Listen anytime. Anywhere. Music, radio. Podcasts on the free. One app. No subscription. Always free. Grab the free app.

I heart radio. Every radio app today. I'm Melissa Jeltson, host of the What Happened to Her Podcast. We're kicking off the season with the Sandra Birchmore story, a case the police rode off as a suicide in a snowstorm. Her family never bought it, and the man they suspected wore a badge. You never know who that devil is because he's wearing in disguise.

Sometimes it's a police uniform. And you can get access to all episodes 100% ad-free with an IHeart True Crime Plus subscription exclusively on Apple Podcasts, available only to IHeart True Crime Plus subscribers. So don't wait, head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today. Lisa, we should tell them about our new show. Oh my God, Lexi, we have a new podcast. It's called Don't Lie to Me.

I'm Lexi Youanu. We're two best friends, 22 years apart, but so close at heart. And I'm Lisa DiGulio, the old one, which means we have wildly different references, occasionally different opinions, and at this point in my 50s, I've lived it all. I'm not going to get anywhere. You're fighting. That is wild. I learned that about you today.

Now in my 30s, being the founder of new shoes, good taste is my business. And I've always got something to say. If men were just honest about this, there would be so much more peace in the world. We're going to talk about dating, relationships, beauty, getting older, and a little wiser. We're best friends, but we don't always agree. Because you told us how accommodating you are. Obviously, I would do what I think I could do to fight the fight, but there's a little bit. There's only so much fight I can fight.

Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Liar. Listen on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

I don't really care. Hi, this is Kylie Breakman. Angel Geratana. Jeremy Colhain, Patrick McDonald. And we're the hosts of the Artists on Artists on Artists on Artists Podcast. The Improvised Character Comedy Podcasts where each week a new panel of artists discuss their craft. Join us for a panel of wellness influencers.

What I try to do is faux journal. I don't know. Have you guys heard of faux journaling? Yeah, it's reading. It's called reading. So we don't like to use that word anymore. Okay. A panel of New Yorker cartoonists.

Have you guys done Terry Gross's Peloton class? No! I've been dying too. I'm so sorry. I'm seeing a reading of Sadako and the Thousand Paper Cranes by Audra McDonald's at the Wonderland Bookstore. That's crazy. I went to the Wonderland Bookstore. yesterday and I heard Nora Jones do a reading of Zero Dark 30.

No way. You have to come to the last bookstore, though. Kim Cottrell is reading the guitar tabs of yesterday. A panel of Eurovision participants. And we do a little Halloween sometimes. Does the Pope dress up? He winks on Halloween. He gets right up next to the microphone.

I hear you can almost hear the eyelashes hit each other. You never seen Italy so quiet as when the Pope gets up to wink on Halloween. Listen to artists on artists on artists on artists on artists On the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts I'm Lacey Mosley, author, actor, stand-up comedian, creator and host of Scam Goddess Podcasts The True Crime Comedy Podcasts all about robbery, fraud,

and those who practice it. Each week I bring on incredible guests like Conan O'Brien, Iowa Debris, Lamorne Morris, and Nicole Byer. Ooh, I scammed them. What? I can talk to you for an hour. You're a generational yapper like me. That's why I had to make yanky.

And the scams run the gamut. I'm talking about scams from the 1800s all the way up to today. I also warn you and keep you safe against scammers. Call your grandparents. Tell your parents to stop clicking on links, please. And now you can catch full episodes of my show on YouTube. If there's a scam, I'm here to protect you. And I'm also here to laugh with you.

So if you like fun, if you like comedy, and you like learning and protecting yourself from criminals, Start listening to Scam Goddess on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Where do you think the bystander effect fits into all of this? And on campus, are they talking about that, the culpability of those that perhaps weren't physically involved, but we're aware? Yeah, that's really troubling to people. You know, one of the things that's being talked about is how many people were on that Snapchat exchange, where the fraternity members were inviting other. men to come take part while this woman was in the room. And, you know, there were dozens of

fraternity members on that exchange. It wasn't just those who spoke up. There were many others who saw that back and forth and the extraordinarily crude jokes. And I think there is dismay that there wasn't an intervention, that someone didn't step forward. And that's something that I heard talked about here tonight a lot is the need to really create more culture around the idea that when something like this is happening, that, you know, and frankly, something much milder than this, that, you know, there needs to be a culture on college campuses where, you know, it doesn't have to get to this medieval level before men and women say that's unacceptable.

Right. I, that's a vital part of it, vital, vital. It's hard for us to digest. And I'm over here in New Jersey and Lisa's in San Francisco. And we're both the mother of daughters. Mine's younger. I have a 14-year-old daughter. All of these things, you know, it's keeping everyone up at night to say the least.

I'm surprised that leadership hasn't said anything. I think right now Cornell's leadership is clearly in shock with what's happened here. This escalated very quickly. And some of their steps and their measures, have been, you know, very difficult to follow. I'll tell you one thing that our member station here, WSKG found, was that earlier in the week Cornell had posted on their website that their campus police had given all investigatory material

to the district attorney, that they'd given everything. And then quietly they removed that claim from their website. And so they're clearly trying to find their narrative here. This is a firestorm. It doesn't get any bigger than this. And so it's going to be interesting. But I will say, coming to the point here of tonight's session, these students want a clear statement. They want leadership.

They want, you know, one of the things that I heard, this was heartbreaking. I'm a dad. And I had one young woman, her name's Anna. She said, you know, we're really kids. You know, she said, I'm 20. And I want adults to be figuring out how this should work and how we can be kept safe. Yeah, it was such a. She's exactly right.

She's exactly right. And I think, you know, I think that Cornell is under enormous pressure, but I think the clock is really ticking for them. You know, I've been asking hourly, practically, for an interview, for someone to sit down and ask fair, nuanced, balanced questions. And so far, they've declined. I mean, I can't even imagine what leadership does now to try to come back from this. Do you think there's any coming back from this?

I can't imagine that their, you know, admission is going to be up this year. It's a really interesting question. It's as a reporter, my job is to watch what happens and talk about it. So I'm not going to predict what's going to happen to Cornell's leadership. I will say this. I do, again, think the window of opportunity for them to find their voice, to give a clear plan for where this is going to go, to come forward and speak in interviews. I think that window is narrow at this point.

people really want to hear what they have to say. And it's not just students. It's alumni. It's donors. You know, the local newspaper here on campus, this wonderful student-led newspaper, the daily son. They reported that Nancy Pelosi canceled a trip here because she's outraged by this. And, you know, so these are wounds for sure.

And the school is going to have to hustle now to get ahead of this. But so far that has not happened. Wow, I have friends and friends' kids who graduated Cornell. Some that are actually there right now. As do I. And you do two. It's just in mourning right now. Yeah.

I mean, it's an opportunity to be, you know, that's what leadership is in my mind is to be accountable and to face something head on. That's the opportunity that they have. And I hope that they take it. Yeah. One of the young people in this session here said the line, they said was we don't want administrators, we want leaders. And that's a distinction that I think is really important in a moment like this.

So we'll see, you know, that's definitely a beat in the story that we just haven't heard yet. Lots of other people talking, but we're not, you know, clear yet. And I think at the heart of it that suggests that, you know, there really could be troubling information here about what happened in the initial investigation and why all of the pertinent information. Again, it's unclear whether criminal charges would ever have been filed anyway, but for them to have passed a summary

to the district attorney from the campus, from the campus police to the county prosecutor that made very clear that this appeared to be a consensual event when they were in fact holding many, many quotes, many statements, many nuanced moments in dialogue with her where she was clearly frightened and clearly felt like something very, very ugly had happened. You know, I think it's going to take a while to get to the bottom of that. Yeah. Brian, is the rally already happened or is it coming? And is it going to be televised?

There are more rallies that are going to be here. I was just seeing a poster for that. This event tonight was more somber than a rally. It was really just students getting up and speaking and talking. And so, yeah, but I think we will see more of that. And yeah, it's going to be interesting to see how this evolves in the days ahead. Yeah. Thank you so very much for taking this time with us. Yeah, we appreciate you.

Oh, I'm glad to do it. Thank you so much for letting me join your conversation. Thank you, Brian. Thanks, Brian. Okay, guys, listen, Lisa, thank you so much for being here with a dirty rush. Inviting me over to talk about this. It's incredibly important to have. have a voice. And I really appreciate that those young people on campus are using theirs.

Yeah. So do I. And we're going to continue to talk about it. And we're going to talk about it on our shared true crime podcast because it is so important and there are still so many questions. So you guys stick with us. Coverage will continue. Yeah. Lisa, tell them about our new show. We have a new podcast. It's called Don't Lie to Me. I'm Lexi Yuwanu. We're two best friends, 22 years apart, but so close at heart. And I'm Lisa Di Giulio, the old one, which means we have wildly different references, occasionally different opinions, and at this point in my 50s, I've lived it all.

Now in my 30s, being the founder of new shoes, good taste is my business. Listen on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Melissa Jeltson, host of the What Happened to Her podcast. We're kicking off the season with the Sandra Birchmore story, a case the police rode off as a suicide in a snowstorm. Her family never bought it, and the man they suspected wore a badge. You never know who that devil is because he's wearing in disguise. Sometimes it's a police uniform.

And you can get access to all episodes 100% ad-free with an IHeart True Crime Plus subscription exclusively on Apple Podcasts, available only to IHeart True Crime Plus subscribers. So don't wait, head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today. Hi, this is Kylie Breakman. Angel Geratana. Jeremy Colhain, Patrick McDonald. And we're the hosts of the Artists on Artists on Artists on Artist Podcast.

The Improvised Character Comedy Podcast where each week a new panel of artists discuss their craft. Join us for a panel of Eurovision participants. And we do a little Halloween sometimes. Does the Pope dress up? He winks on Halloween. He gets right up next to him. I hear you can almost hear the eyelashes hit each other. You never seen Italy so quiet as when the Pope gets up to wink on Halloween.

Listen to Artists on Artists on Artists every Thursday on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Lacey Mosley, author, actor, stand-up comedian, creator, and host of Scam Goddess Podcast. The True Crime Comedy Podcasts all about robbery, fraud, and those who practice it. Each week I bring on an amazing guest. Ooh, I scammed them. I can talk to you for an hour. You're a generational yapper like me. That's why I had to make yapping a job.

And now you can catch full episodes of my show on YouTube. Start listening to Scam Goddess on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. What up y'all, y'all, Memphis Bleak right here, host of that rock solid podcast. And each week, we bring in you exclusive looks inside music, everything happening inside the culture. Some of the best conversations were the biggest names in the game. You had a little bit more pressure to be good. And they didn't care if you was a girl. Like, you wasn't getting no points.

If you're not trash, you better be not just good. You better be great. Listen to Rock Solid on Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you streamed podcast. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.