The Ben and Ashley I Almost Famous Podcast - How To Bounce Back From A Breakup Like A Bad B*tch!

Episode Date: May 21, 2026

We’ve ALL been through a bad breakup, but how do you bounce back and not let it ruin your life?   Author of Don't Do What I Did, Kelsey Darragh, has been through it all and has the perfect book to guide you through the mess!   Email us at: [e-mail] or call us at 844-4-I Do Pod (844-443-6763)Follow I Do, Part 2 on Instagram and TikTokSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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And I'm Nick. And guess what? We created our own podcast called, Hey Jonas. We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to it. We get to ask other people to do podcasts. We get to ask other people questions because we're sick and tired of being asked questions.

Well, sick and tired is a strong way to put it. But, you know, tired and sick. Listen to Hey Jonas on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. Another podcast from some SNL, late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smigel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Jim Gaffigan to Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman, help make you funnier.

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The group. The yard birds, right? That's the name. The Harvard yard, but they're open. Do you have a name suggestion? We're open. Since you guys are middle-aged. One erection.

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player in the world right now and I actually can win on any surface. Listen to the Renee Stubbs tennis podcast on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports. I do part two and it's one of your celebrity mentors. Also is my chapter two. I'm Kathy Swartz. Breakups are tough to navigate at any age. Today I'm talking with the author of Don't Do What I Did. break up and bounce back. It's Kelsey Dara. Hi. Hi, Kelsey. How are you?

Hello, I'm excited to talk to you for many reasons. First of all, I'm old enough to be your mother and what you've been through at your age, you don't know this, but I got married. In fact, today would be my 53rd wedding anniversary. My husband died by suicide six and a half years ago. And so now I'm in this horrible dating pool that you write about, but I feel like so much is different from when I was young and getting married and dating now. I can't even imagine. And thank you for sharing that with me. I mean, you've been through. Amazing. I want your next book to be about dating in my chapter two. I would, I would write that, read it, and I'd watch it too, if anyone wants to turn an intuition.

Amen. Okay. The other thing I want to say before we get started is I am a very honest person. Yeah. I've read as many parts of your book as I could and I love your honesty. Oh, thanks. Right out of the gate, you are honest. Everything you say is heartfelt and mostly true, I have to say. It's no filter. No, you know, my parents don't love it because they can't share everything I do. but I think it's really important and I appreciate you saying so. So yeah, and nothing's off limits. I'll answer anything and everything.

Well, I love that. And we're going to get into a couple of things that have happened to you. You know, you're not a dating expert. You say that, but you've been dumped lots of times. You want to see the pain. My dating experiences have been quite different than what you explain,

than what you discuss in your book, but mostly because, you know, I'm looking for a guy who's upright and, can walk from here to the corner store. And even that is hard to find, Calhru. Same girl. We're in the same boat, you know? Oh, gosh.

Okay, is this true? I mean, I believe it's true. You mentioned your book that you got broken up with right after giving a guy a blowjob. I mean, really? So it's so embarrassing because there's even more to that story that it was the night before my birthday. and I was fostering kittens at that time because I foster a lot of animals

and one of the kittens had just died. So like you couldn't make this stuff up if I tried. And in my head, I'm thinking, was the blow job that bad? Oh my God. So wait a minute. I just like how did he just tell me what he said. Like that is one hell of a way to get dumped.

I want to know. Yeah. I don't know if this helps his case or her. it, but he was a male model. So I think he was used to just kind of doing whatever he wanted and saying the things he wanted. And I was just so enamored by his looks that I don't think I saw the reality of the situation was that he was just very much Mr. Right now, not Mr. Right. Mr. Wright, right. You were blinded by the light. Blinded by the light, blinded by those abs, blinded by the baby blue eyes. And it was literally right after, you know, the blowjob that you're

cuddling and thinking you're being so cute that he gives me the, I don't think I can do this anymore. Like I'm not trying to be serious. Comverse. Which is just shorthand for, thanks for the blowjob, but you're not the way. And to make it worse, he lived on the west side, which in Los Angeles, to be so, you know, back in Hollywood versus West, that's like a 45 minute drive to an hour drive. And the worst part of that was then I had to drive all the way back. And I just sat in silence, really having to think my life choices. Wait a minute. He didn't even put you in an Uber?

No. We were in our 20s. We didn't have enough money for that. Okay, you and I are going to co-author the next book. I've got some suggestions for you. Okay, but I want to know, seriously, you've been dumped in a variety of ways. I love your book because it's very clear. It's very, you know, I'm a writer by training, and so I love it so clear.

the mess. You have three sections. The mess, the healing, the change. So the mess. Tell me how being dumped in so many incredible ways. How has that shaped your approach to relationships? Yeah. I mean, here's what I realized and the whole reason why I wanted to write the book is I have

been an internet creator for 15 plus years. And I was always known. as the strong, independent woman, feminist, took no sex positive, behind the screen, behind closed doors, anytime a relationship would end, I would fall apart. I would either, you know, completely cut off contact, go cold turkey, run away from the situation, or I would think I was going crazy with the way I was acting, like the repeating texting, the crying, the why. And it was happening so often that it got to a point where even I recognized like this is not normal or healthy that this keeps happening that my life keeps falling apart only after relationships end.

So the way that I have lived my life online and in my work is I like to be sort of the conduit of information. I was like, if I can go something horrible and talk about it honestly to my followers and like help one person, then I can sleep well at night. And I did that with my first book about mental health and anxiety and panic attacks. And I thought I was juggling with this idea of what my second book would be. And I decided right after the worst breakup I had gone through that this was going to be the next book. And I was going to learn as much about the science of breakups, what's happened chemically in your body, how does what you learn through, you know, a childhood experience or through your parents, how does that affect the way you carry yourself in life? And so I

I just immersed myself completely. I went to a breakup boot camp. I was in therapy three days a week. I wanted to learn everything I could. I don't know how you found time to write the book. A lot of Adderall, probably. A lot of Adderall and ADHD and hyperfixation. But I really wanted to solve this problem, honestly, genuinely.

It was a problem. Like I had overcome panic attacks. I had quit drinking and overcome, you know, alcoholism. and drug addiction. Like I had overcome these pretty huge things in my life. I could not figure out this breakup, heartbreak thing. Like I was genuinely interested in figuring it out.

Okay. So here's my thing. I mean, you are lovely. You're beautiful. You're my children's age. So. I love you already. You know what?

You and I are going to be great friends. But here's the thing that I mean, I got married when I was 20 years old. Okay. So, you know, I got broken up with my first love in high school. school and that was you know but I was whatever I was who cares right it was high school um but I have found since dating since my husband passed away and now dating I mean I'm I got to break the news to you

I don't think men really change and so and here's you know please I would actually love to hear your thoughts on this I think you know you you talk about breakup healing and I want to give into that. But before you start healing from the breakup, you fall for this guy or this woman or vice versa, whatever the situation is. And in my case, I am a very strong, independent woman. And I can't tell you how many times I've heard men say to me, you're beautiful, you're athletic, you're smart, you're independent, you're just the woman I'm looking for. But guess what? I'm not. Because they don't. don't really want that. So given that men don't always say what they mean or mean what they say,

nor do women on, like I say, on both sides, I don't care what the relationships, female to female. I don't care. Whatever the situation is, what is the hardest part? Because my hardest part is different. What do you think is the hardest part of the healing journey? After the breakup, what is the hardest part? Like some people live together, they have to give up homes, pets. Yeah, Because you're into, like the point of love in a relationship is intertwining your lives together. Like that's when you know it's succeeding, right? It's, you've shared the home. You've got the kids.

You've got the assets. Untangling that, talk about a mess. Like, that's the reason we actually stay too long. That's the reason why we believe in the sunken cost fallacy. That's often why we don't leave is because we have X, Y, Z, and I hate to break to people, there's never a good time to break up. Like, there's never the perfect Tuesday afternoon where nobody's busy and we can finally have the big conversation. It usually amounts in some big explosion and blow up, right? That's just

someone bends until they break. So for me, the mess is really the hardest, but it's also what my body is so good at. I'm so good at flailing and crying and living in that crud of feeling like the world has ended. So for me, the hardest part is actually getting out of that, is getting out of the need and desire to contact them. So going no contact was really hard for me. figuring out a way to find my own identity back was really hard for me. Like getting out of the mess and the untangling, I was bending myself in all different kinds of ways to make something work. So wait a minute.

Are you saying after the breakup, the hardest part for you was staying away? Yes. Oh, my God. For me, I felt like a drug addict and the ex was the dealer. Like, imagine if your dealer just cut you off one day and was like, I'm never going to answer your phone call again. and you're like, no, I need a hit of my lover. I'm going to go.

I'm going to, Kelsey, I got to tell you, that has not been a call that I've ever had to make. I'm just saying, again, I'm willing to have to be your mother. So we're going to use another analogy. We're going to go down a different road here. But that is very interesting because when I, again, you know, I had three kids. My first child was born when I was 28. My last child at 34. And for the, you know, I had a great marriage, not perfect because anyone who tells you marriage,

their marriage is perfect they are lying lying but i can i mean my daughter has been through breakups my son um there's nothing like a kid who doesn't listen to their mother let me we could do a book that would make things far too easy for us that would make sure way too easy but i think that um i've seen my daughter she's married now with a with a baby a three-year-old but i have seen my daughter's friends they go through these breakups they can't They're either drunk texting or they're, you know, they're looking at the photos and they create these incredible situations that only exist in their mind. In their mind.

Right. In their mind. Well, it is science comes down to it. Like our brains want to succeed. We don't want to live in the failure. So our brains will naturally reconsolidate to try and only remember the good to equate the feelings of happiness to that person rather than what the system. situation provided, which is usually stability and companionship and whatever else was good about

the relationship. It's scientific that our brains don't want to suffer. So we will do, we will trick, we will, we will bend and break to make it seem like it wasn't actually that bad. I could actually put up with it. But do you think breakups, because let me just say in the last six plus years, I'm really good. I've only been broken up with by one guy. I'm always the, I'm a dump or not the dumpy. Which is not easy all the time either. You know, I still feel for those people that have to do the hard part. I don't struggle with it. You're like, cut them on.

Get rid of them up. My book is one paragraph long. Send them to the curb. Get rewarded just for shopping with Simon Plus. Don't miss Memorial Day sales at Simon Premium Outlets and Mills. You can get points at scores of stores, access to exclusive offers and exciting surprises. You've got an extra day off. So make it pay off with the best deals from brands you love all in one place.

It's a summer kickoff thing. Join today at Simonplus.com. Rewards program Terms Apply. See Simonplus.com for details. Hey, it's us to Jonas Brothers. And guess what? We have some big news. What's the news, new?

Huge news. We created our own podcast called, Hey, Jonas. We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to a... We're the first people to do podcasts. Pretty, yeah, pretty wide range of podcasts. a trend. But this one's extra

special. So how did we actually come up with a name Hey Jonas, guys? I honestly don't remember. I think it was on a call about what we should call it. Oh, we were thinking I'm originally calling it one of the early names of our band before Jonas Brothers

was... This is how you guys remember it going down? Yes. I have a very different memory of this. We were talking about a thing, a bit for the podcast where people could call in and say, hey Jonas. And then I wrote down on my little note had Hey Jonas and offered it up as a potential title for the podcast. But thanks for remembering that, guys. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guide, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smigel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Jim Gaffigan to Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman, help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter, Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. The worst singer in the group?

The worst? Yeah. Me. Is there anything to the idea that because you're from Harvard, you only got in because your parents made a huge donation. The group. The yard birds, right? That's the name. The Harvard yard, but they're open.

Do you have a name suggestion? We're open. Since you guys are middle aged. One erection. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Humor me! I need some jokes to make me seem funny. Last night, a blown call changed a game.

This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. go straight to the source, the athlete themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real.

From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context, and ask the questions everybody wants answered. Sports Slice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to Sports Slice on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slica Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. How would your advice be? How should someone be broken up with? What is the ideal breakup?

My mantra is always, because I've done it a couple times, even though I am really going to get broken up with. I've had to do it a couple times. And to me, it's first of all treating the person as human. Because I think once we've gotten to the place where we're ready to break up with someone, our brain doesn't really see them as our partner anymore. We're like, someone just needs to tell them that I'm kind of over it. So I have to place myself back in that situation being like, yes, they are human.

And I always say, break up with someone the way you would want to be broken up with. Would you connect someone? Would you break up through text? Okay. Breaking up to me establishes you've been in a committed relationship. If you're just like dating someone casually and it's not really working out, like would I want to be broken up with in a text? No, I would at least like a voice note or a FaceTime. Thank you very much.

Text seems lazy. It screams lazy. But if the relationship has been lazy, if we've only been seeing each other a couple times, I think that's a little bit more acceptable. So that's sort of my next question. How often do you think women at any age, you know, they have the first date with the guy, go out for dinner, have a drink, and the next date is at the altar or moving in or whatever, you know, there's a name for that.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, there's a difference between like limerance and love, right? Like limerxes that chemical high. You feel like you're in the honeymoon stage of a relationship. But I'm saying I think sometimes, I'm curious what you think. Again, when I say women, it could be men, whatever, whoever. Yeah.

They're in this, they're thinking, I mean, let me put it. Let me be personal. When I have broken up with a man that I've dated, you know, six months, eight months, he thought what? What? He thought it was permanent. And I'm like, you miss something there. And so I think that being, you know, that communication skill, the clarity, the clarity of what you think and what you want.

Sometimes we miss the boat on that. I think you have to establish that so early on. Like when I sit down with someone on a first date, I am brutally honest. I'm like, here's what I'm looking for. Here's what I think I want right now. Do you scare them with that? Oh, I don't care. If I scare them, they're not going to be able to handle me.

Like, I'm not being exactly. That's a big flavor for people. I think you're my daughter. Yeah, I think we might be related. Like the hair, like it's giving. We know each other in a past life. But yeah, I think we're, that's a really hard thing to do for a lot of people, women, too, is to say up front what they want because that we're willing to kind of accept the lowest

bare bar of the ball. Or we're willing to morph into what we think they want. Or if you're coming, that me, I'm so good at that. It started in high school from like pretending I liked the football team that the guy I had crush on liked all the way to like the last relationship I was in where I pretended to like his poetry like I've really bended to be like no I get it we belong together and again another scientific thing we start to mirror the person because we believe that if we match in hobbies we will match romantically it just is something that like we naturally try to do to get along with people

but I will say that like there is a slippery slope of that because we can become codependent so quickly when we mesh and merge our lives too fast and in a sort of like false way. Do you think women do it more than men? And if so, why? I would like to say no because I'm a feminist. But if I'm looking at the reality, I think we are still living in a patriarchal society that tells little girls that the night will come and save us. And the ultimate dream is marriage and children and the white picket fence. And that's a sign of success, even though 60% of marriages end a divorce. And we call that the most successful version of a relationship. If any other product failed 60% of the time,

it would never see the light a day. It would never be on the market. But we're like, no, marriage is the ultimate ending. Yeah. Well, and I mean, on my research sense, it's about 50%, but why quibble over decimal points? If we're being honest, too, about the ones that stay without saying anything,

you know, the ones that don't even interview. But again, I'm also coming from a family where my parents got married after three months of knowing each other, went to white little chapel in Vegas and I've been married 40 years this year. So like, I've seen it. I've seen it happen. My parents are sold mates made for each other, but I also have to be real. You know, I also have to be real about what I see around me.

Yeah, I mean, I think that's the exception, not the rule. Okay, so I have, I want to know what your thought is because, you know, there's been a couple times when I've thought about doing it and have done it. Does anything good come from going back with an ex? We take out the trash for a reason. How did it end for you? I mean, did you stay with them? A little bit longer than the time before?

Yeah. But the thing is, I'm a smart girl like you are, and that voice, Jimmy Cricket on my shoulder. I know what. You know what you were doing. I know what's up. But again, at my age, so breakups at my age, I mean, I'm not looking, not all women, but women in their 20s and 30s, if they're looking to have children, that damn biological clock is ticking.

And so that makes women, I think, do things that they might not do in their, you know, in another life. Those days, that chapter in my life, I'm in chapter two, but not that chapter. Yeah. No, I am not birthing another child. So for me, I don't, it's very different for me. When I break up with someone or when he broke up with me, it's more about they don't think that.

were compatible. That's the word I get. And that's what I say to them a lot. And I try to be very kind about it. But I think social media, again, you know, when I got married in the dark ages, social media was not a thing. How much of this breakup scenario that we're talking about

is due to, oh, that girl's gorgeous. I date her, oh, wait a minute. You know, I'm going to go down aisle five in the grocery store because they've got some pretty little cookies down there. There's a whole chapter in the book about social media and breakups because 10 years ago, that chapter didn't exist. We didn't have the access to A, so many choices to our compare and despair to look at everyone else's relationship and compare it to our own.

And we also didn't have the unique pain that is having access to seeing our exes living their best lives via social media after us. I want to see them crying in a corner. But listen, Kelsey. you know that the Instagram, the social media TikTok, that's all the lives we want. We'll see we're living. Most of them are crying in the corner at least two hours a day. But like that's not what I'm seeing.

And you better believe that the best pictures I've ever posted about myself or after a breakup, like fully ass out in a bikini like in Mexico, I'm like, men, never heard of them. Like, but I was devastated. Like I want to know that that person is also suffering. Okay. So speaking of that, what? are the post-breakup things that people should avoid doing? Tell me.

Okay. No one likes to hear this. I'm going to tell you, nobody likes to hear this. I am a very big proponent of all contact, block, delete, hide photos, everything for at least 30 days. I think those post-breakup 30 days are so, you're dysregulated, your routine is different. like you aren't yourself. You are not yourself chemically. You are not yourself physically. And I think the more you can get the desired object out of the picture and actually see life for what it is, the better. So I'm talking about go through your iPhone and get rid of every photo of them. That is not

easy when you were together with someone for eight years. Luckily, we have a little filter that the iPhone can identify their face and you can just throw it on a hard drive, give it to your best friend. My best friend still has a hard drive with all of my ex's photos on it. And I'll get it back one day, but I don't need it right now. Wait, well, okay. Whoa, whoa. Why would you want this? Why would you want it?

I'm a very nostalgic hoarder type person where when I need to like feel something like write about it, I need to like put the song on. I need to see the videos. I need to put myself back in the moment. Does it make you want to go back down that road? never never never because I've learned maybe me five 10 years ago what have that would have been too dangerous but I think now hindsight is everything right like once you've gotten over somebody and you can just see it for what it was which is like a point of growth someone that was meant to be a chapter

not the entire book you can kind of go like oh that was son I can go live in that for a little while but I don't need to stay there so you know I I have friends that throughout every gift I actually have a friend who was with a guy, I don't know, three or four years. She actually cheated on her husband with this guy. She and her husband subsequently got divorced, dating this guy. When they broke up, I mean, I hate using the term a narcissist because it's so overused. But I assure you, I know what a narcissist is and he is, was, whatever. But she went through and took, he bought her such expensive gifts because that's what it was about.

he wasn't a good boy, you know, he was messing around. She got rid of every gift, called her phone, but what she did do was jump into another relationship very quickly. Guilty, guilty. That was the onus of writing this book because I did that. And then it all crushed and burned a year later. And I'm going to tell you why. This is what I discovered.

When you are coming out of a relationship, there is a clear unmet need. there's a clear lack of something. For them, it might have been, you know, like just intimacy or honesty, right? So the first person that comes by and fills that lacking hole with something nice and fulfilling and stable, you are in trouble because you will fall for that person. I fell immediately for somebody after my longest, most intense relationship because they were obsessed with me. And I was coming out of like a six to eight-month period to, the end where my ex was like, we were ending.

And it was a really long, drawn out breakup. Which I don't even understand that, by the way. You got to explain that to me. Like maybe, I mean, maybe you're not my daughter because when I literally meet a guy. Yeah. And we'll go out, you know, for a couple of dates. That's, again, it's at my age. This time, my chapter two is very different than people in their 20s, 30s, even in the 40s.

Because, you know, I plan on living to 120. But I don't have time to mess with fools. And I think men, I think they, I don't know, what do I know I'm not one, but I think they process breakups differently. I think they rapidly move on and they literally rapidly move on. Yeah. Hit some later. Women, I think, I'm asking your opinion, actually, take longer.

I think sometimes men will, out of the clear blue, because, you know, it's Tuesday and it's raining. I think I'm going to break up. But women, I'm asking if you agree, we think about it. Women tend to grieve the ending of the relationship while we're still in the relationship. So we are done for a long time before we actually get out. Men are quite the opposite. They'll break it off because it's inconvenient in the moment.

It's like you said, a Tuesday and it's raining and it seems like a good time to pack my stuff up. And then about three to four months later, they start going, huh, that was the best thing I ever had. I really mess not up, didn't I? It's just what we've seen. Get rewarded just for shopping with Simon Plus. Don't miss Memorial Day sales at Simon Premium Outlets and Mills. You can get points at scores of stores, access to exclusive offers and exciting surprises.

You've got an extra day off, so make it pay off, with the best deals from brands you love all in one place. It's a summer kickoff thing. Join today at Simon's, Plus.com. Rewards program term supply. See simonplus.com for details. Hey, it's us, the Jonas Brothers. And guess what? We have some big news. What's the news, huge news? We created our own podcast called Hey Jonas. We invented a podcast. Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to a podcast. We're the first people to do podcasts.

Pretty, yeah, pretty wide range of podcasts. We're starting a trend. But this one's extra special. So how do we actually come up with a name Hey Jonas, guys? I honestly don't remember. I think it was on a call about what we should call it. Well, we were thinking I'm originally calling it one of the early names of our band before Jonas Brothers. This is how you guys remember it going down? Yes.

I have a very different memory of this. We were talking about a thing, a bit for the podcast, people could call in and say, hey, Jonas. And then I wrote down on my little notepad, Hey Jonas, and offered it up as a potential title for the podcast. But thanks for remembering that, guys. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast. or wherever you get your podcast.

Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Jim Gaffigan to Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier.

This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an Acapella band with their between songs banter. There's the worst singer in the group. The worst? Yeah. Me. Is there anything to?

The idea that because you're from Harvard, you only got in because your parents made a huge donation. The group. The yard birds, right? That's the name. The Harvard yard, but they're open. Do you have a name suggestion? We're open. Since you guys are middle-aged.

One erection. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. You love me. I need some jokes to make me seem funny. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in.

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So I asked you before about going back with an ex, but what if the X that you really loved calls you back? And you know, still no? It's called the dangle. And I swear men, my good friend Amy Chan who runs breakup boot camp and wrote a book about breakups, call it the dangle. And I've seen it firsthand. It's like they can smell when you're healing.

It's like your wound is closing. And they're like, how about one more cut? Like, what if we just like, put it around and do one more thing? And they can smell. And I swear to you, I've seen it time and time again. A friend will have a first date plan. like their first date back out there and their ex will show up. And all it is that you have to remind yourself, it's the universe giving you a test. It's asking you like, are you really healed or

do you still have another lesson to learn? Because I've gone back to X's and had the same cycle happen and it's your brain trying to solve the problem. It couldn't solve the first time saying maybe if I try it with this kind of guy or, you know, if I repeat the same sort of type over and over again, I can figure out why that ended so poorly. But it's a true. just the test. Like you're going to go back, if you're going to go back, you better go back full force and learn your lesson, babe. Boy, it's like sometimes you just have to be beat around the head with, you know. You really do. You got a rock bottom. Really, rock bottom and then dig a hole deeper. Yep. Bear yourself with it. Well, really, what should women avoid that? I mean, again,

I've had friends who dye their hair blonde or die their hair red. Yeah, make a huge financial purchase. Yeah, they go out and buy themselves jewelry. If they take an expensive trip they can't afford. I mean, now I'm not opposed to that. This might not be popular opinion. I'm not opposed to the treat thyself within budgetary, you know, you're not blowing your 401K. Here's where I think women need to pay attention is that the healing needs to be about you, not getting back out there.

I think we rush to say, I got to get under somebody to get over somebody. You're like, I'm just going to distract myself with the swiping. and I say that to that, the apps will always be there. They are designed to always be there. They are designed for you to download and make this the simplest thing for you to do as easy as buying a cup of coffee every morning. I hate the apps. Hate the apps.

They're fine when you want to have fun. Oh, no. I'm sorry. What is your idea of fun? Poking your eyes with a needle? What are you talking about fun? Absolutely not. You know, if you find someone that's looking for the same kind of whimsy as you,

it can be a nice distraction. And it's good practice. I think it's a good practice for dating. Like not every date needs to be because you're trying to find the one for a lot of people. They're not trying to settle down right now. I think they're looking for the one right now. And I think dating can also be good social practice because the worst thing that happens is you become, you know, like a dating intersex, which is you go completely the other way and you don't go out at all and you're too afraid to get back out there. You're not having sex anymore.

You're not dating and you become socially introverted. Okay. So what do you think a woman? And then, you know, you can tell me what you think women might. Because women my age tend to go out with, I guess you guys do too, young people, young, I call you all youngens, go out with your girlfriends, your guy friends in groups. Yeah. Women tend to do that as well.

But what, so we know what to avoid. Don't go fall back into the same traps. Yeah. Which is another question I have. Why do women go after the same guy? time after time after hold that thought and just tell me like what what do how can women or men go out and find a good relationship if they haven't been doing it i think if there was like one easy answer i would be a billionaire if i was like there's a bar on wilshire and cohenge that you won't

believe this where you find the perfect relationship i but i have noticed that there needs to be some form of self actualization before feeling healthy enough to get back out there and find the one, right? So if we haven't gone back and analyzed our patterns of why that last one was so tumultuous and messed up, you're going to keep doing the same thing over and over again. Again, like our brain wants to solve a problem. Our brain wants to find the ending that we didn't find before. So that's why I answer your question of why we go for the same guy over and over again, our brain's going, maybe this one will be the one that's different.

Maybe, okay, that one wasn't, maybe this one will be the one that's different. Here's the thing that I'm asking. Yes, I know, I agree with you. But I feel like women and young people that I, you know, from being in bachelor land, I know a lot of young people. And they seem to say to me the same thing. You know, Kathy, he just reminds me that the guy broke up with her who broke up with me. And I'll say, well, tell me about that.

And it's almost like, I hate, I hate saying this, but it's, almost like the devil they know. Yeah, is way more comfortable than the one they don't, right? And yet do they, I feel like they already know it's not going to work out, but it's, we're going to spend another two or three months so we can affirm that fact for the fourth time. That's where I go back to remembering that the relationships we actually have in our early days. Like even friendships as a child, even as like our first crushes,

even the way we let male influences in our life treat us or our first boyfriends, those patterns are so crucial because that's the time in our lives where we're making those neural pathways in our brain, right? And to be able to shake up those pathways and recover them and pave new ones takes a lot of therapy or like a really good mushroom trip. Like it could be therapy and psychedelics or repattering your entire existence. So knowing where those patterns come from and you hit the nail on. the head, our nervous system will gravitate. If we grew up in chaos, if we found safety in chaos,

if we found love in chaos as a child, like our brain 100% is going to go find chaos because that's what we believe makes this level. Or if you didn't have stability, you're looking for that. You're looking for stability, but you seem to end up in unstable relationship because that's what you knew as a child. Exactly. So, so what would you say to, First of all, I want to say one more thing about your book. I loved the workbook pages. I love and I love what you said is, you know, and some of it I'm making up now. Like those pages don't fill themselves.

You have to commit the time and the effort to doing those exercises. And I read that. I went, oh, she's so right. I'm so ADHD that like a book sitting down and reading sometimes I'll find myself doodling. film I found on my phone. So really that came out of a decision of how do I like to learn, how to I like to process my emotions. And, you know, sometimes it's a game. Sometimes it's a journal entry. Sometimes it's a workbook circle, connect the dots. Like, I just wanted to have it so that you can open any page and find something for how you were feeling right now. I just, do you think that

women can, I want as a mom and now as a grandmother, I am also a feminist. I'm also, I mean, I was a woman had in my time. Yeah, except that I got married at 20 years of age, but that's just the detail. We can overlook that. But I feel like I want to empower women. I wish that women, again, all these silly little adages, if women could understand that they want a partner who doesn't complete them, you have to be complete yourself. And so if you are looking for someone to complete you, you are never going to

You're never going to be happy. Yeah. No. Because they aren't you. They literally can't be a piece of you. Well, I mean, it's one thing to say, like, really, at my age, I'm looking for the man to walk with me hand in hand, not ahead of me, not behind me. But, of course, at my age, you have financial considerations, you know, where's your money going? Where's your house in the Hampton's going?

I want it. You know, that kind of stuff. But I think that women, when they're younger, I think. There's so many issues propelled with them that when this sudden breakup, when you think, when one thinks that this is the guy and you are hit like a sledgehammer because that's a lot of women I know, that's what happens. It's like out of the blue and they're devastated. And so I want them to under, you know, I don't have, I'm not, I also am not a dating coach.

but I just know in my heart what you're saying. You will be okay. It is survivable. Like it is 100% survivable. And even though it doesn't look like it in this moment, I always say like I used to believe that time heals all wounds. But I truly don't think your wounds will be healed if you don't change the way you think or the way you feel.

Like the thoughts inside of your head control the emotions. and there's so much inner work that can make this turmoil less painful. In your book, I want to quote you, you mentioned your thoughts create your feelings and feelings aren't facts. Can you break that down for people who've never heard that concept before, including why? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I struggle with not doing enough.

I always think I'm not doing enough. I'm not trying hard enough. So I tell myself, you're not worthy of success, you're not doing enough. And these are just automatic thoughts that I'm having, right? So my brain is listening to me. My brain is hearing those thoughts. And that's going to create a really deep feeling of self-consciousness, of self-deprecation with jokes, as distancing people rather than inviting in for collaboration.

Like, your brain will listen to those thoughts that are cycling. And that creates a feeling. right so naturally i'm going to start acting like i'm not successful that i don't do enough that i'm lazy that i'm worthless that i'm unlovable if i just decide to change those thoughts even if they're fake even if i'm sitting going this stupid mantra writing is the dumbest exercise i've ever heard but i'm going to write that i love and believe in myself a hundred times and say in the mirror do whatever that's actually neuroscience that your brain is going to hear you and go wait we love ourselves i have permission to love myself. I have all the need of the love and desires that I have is already within me.

Like I can complete myself. I am worthy. I am desirable of love. I am successful. I am funny. Oh my God. We start to act that way. And we start to believe it. And so what people, the term I hear all the time, but I love the way you put it is don't put that shit out in the universe. You know, don't put that negativity out in the universe. And I think what yours, but you put legs on it. You give meaning to it. And I hope that people who are going through these breakups, instead, you know, after you're done crying in the corner and drinking the bottle of vodka and thinking about drunk texting your boyfriend, do not do that. Don't do that. It's not a good look.

But once you have gotten through that, I think that gives people hope because they begin to believe in themselves again. Yeah. And again, it's putting the focus on you. So much about a breakup is focusing on the other person. And that's honestly what I was sick of. I was like, golly, I cannot give any more brain space in time to mourning shitty men. Like, I'm so sick of it. And anything that reverses that narrative and puts it back on yourself, I think is ultimately, like, where I'm trying to help people go.

Well, I think that your book is exceptional. I think that the workbook is great. I think you give very sound. Some of it is like, if you don't know this, you're in trouble. But some of it is, you know what? It's, this is helpful to people going through breakup. So, you know, I think that people need to read that book and do the workbook part of it. Just get it.

It's under 20 bucks. We fought to make sure that we kept it accessible and affordable. And like if you don't like it, then give it to a friend. Because one thing that's never going to stop is relationship's ending and people getting broken up with it, unfortunately. That's right. And you know what? reading, I think everyone, I just want to be sure that they do pick up Kelsey's book. It's titled, Don't Do What I Did, Break Up and Bounce Back. It's out now. I'm going to pick one up and see what I'm doing wrong.

But you are a delight. Thank you so much for your sage advice, your great commentary. And I hope that everyone going through a breakup now pays attention to what you're saying. Kathy, you're the tits. I love you. Oh, thanks. It's great to meet you guys. You take it so long. Bye-bye.

Are you coming out of a breakup and ready to bounce back, but you need some guidance? We're here to help. Send us an email or leave us a voicemail. All the info is in the show notes. Follow us on socials. I do part two. An IHeart podcast where falling in love is the main objective. Get rewarded just for sure.

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The worst? Yeah. Me. Is there anything to the idea that because you're from Harvard, uh, you only got in because you're parents. Parents made a huge donation. The group. The yard birds, right?

That's the name. The Harvard Yardt. They're open. Do you have a name suggestion? We're open. Since you guys are middle age. One erection. Listen to humor me with Robert Smygel and friends on the I-Heart radio app,

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