The Ben and Ashley I Almost Famous Podcast - Jenn’s Finale

Episode Date: September 4, 2024

Ben and Ashley are ready to take you through every dramatic detail of the finale of Jenn Tran’s season of The Bachelorette!  Ben has some hot takes about the proposal and how it was aired, and why it’s the worst treatment of a lead in the history of the show We try to figure out WHAT went wrong in the execution of this finale, we try to get into the mindset of Devin, and how can the franchise improve moving forward. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. My boyfriend's professor is way too friendly, and now I'm seriously suspicious. Wait a minute, Sam. Maybe her boyfriend's just looking for extra credit. Well, Dakota, luckily, it's back to school week on the OK Storytime podcast, so we'll find out soon. This person writes, my boyfriend's been hanging out with his young professor a lot. He doesn't think it's a problem, but I don't trust her. Now he's insisting we get to know each other, but I just want her gone.

Hold up. Isn't that against school policy? That seems inappropriate. Maybe find out how it ends by listening to the OK Storytime podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Why are TSA rules so confusing? You got a hood of you. I'll take it all. I'm Manny. I'm Noah. This is Devin. And we're best friends and journalists with a new podcast called No Such Thing, where we get to the bottom of questions like that.

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Hi, my name is Enya Umanzor. And I'm Drew Phillips. And we run a podcast called Emergency Intercom. If you're a crime junkie and you love crimes, we're not the podcast for you. But if you have unmedicated ADHD... Oh my God, perfect. And want to hear people with mental illness, psychobabble. Yes, yes.

Then Emergency Intercom is the podcast for you. Open your free IHeartRadio app. Search Emergency Intercom and listen now. I'm Dr. Joy Hardin-Brandford, host of the Therapy for Black Girls podcast. I know how overwhelming it can feel if flying makes you anxious. In session 418 of the Therapy for Black Girls podcast, Dr. Angela Neal-Barnett and I discuss flight anxiety. What is not normal is to allow it to prevent you from doing the things that you want to do.

the things that she were meant to do. Listen to therapy for black girls on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Betrayal Weekly is back for season two with brand new stories. The detective comes driving up fast and just like screeches right in the parking lot. I swear I'm not crazy, but I think he poisoned me. I feel trapped. My breathing changes. I realize, wow, like he is not a mentor. He's pretty much a monster. But these aren't just stories of destruction.

They're stories of survival. I'm going to tell my story and I'm going to hold my head up. Listen to Betrayal Weekly on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is the Ben and Ashley I, almost famous podcast with IHeart Radio. It's an almost famous podcast. We were here with the breakdown of the finale episode from Jen's season of The Bachelor. are at Ashley, before we dive into the finale episode specifically, outside of the ending, because we're going to talk about the ending now and our opinions on the ending and how we felt

about the ending for a long time. So instead of just starting out with maybe our thoughts and feels, I want to hear what you think of the season in general. Like up to the, take the ending out of it, takes the last episode out of it, if you can. how did you feel about Jen's time as the Bachelorette? How did she do as the Bachelorette? What was your enjoyment watching the show, the contestants, you know, and all the guys, because what we do, and I know I'm long-winded here, but what we end up doing is we break it down at the beginning

and we give our opinions on all these guys from their pictures. We have no clue who they are or what they're doing. And then we watch this season, and I don't know if we've ever been more right about a cast of characters than we were this season based on our assumptions of the pictures. and I want to hear your thoughts in the season. I really like the season. I find myself really liking pretty much every season once we get down to the finale,

once we get down to like the top 10. I think that every season now, there's a pattern for me. It's just those first couple episodes, you got to get through them. And then once I get attached to the lead and to the characters, I'm so excited to get the episode

in our inbox every week. Really like Jenna's the lead. I think she did a great job and I felt that I like this cast of men I felt more tied to than I have the past few seasons like I went and I followed a few of them and I was like oh I'm like interested in their lives

and then I unfollowed one last night I'm sure you did I'm sure you did what about you yeah what about you Ben you know I might come at it from a different angle honestly I thought I was into the season I thought Jen did do a great job as the Bachelorette. It makes sense to us now why she was chosen

as the Bachelorette. For multiple reasons I thought she coming off of last season now was the clear choice. I think the only other person I would throw into that mix was Daisy, who is obviously in a relationship. So she could not be the Bachelorette. And as she said,

it didn't fit her. I think the other person talked about was Maria. Well, you know, things haven't gone where Maria has come out and been this huge character from the show like we kind of expected her to be. I do think it shows that Jen, coming off the last season, was the clear best choice for Bachelorette.

And I think she did really well at it. I would also, though, just add, I know there maybe is one or two that I would consider following or being invested into. I do think this cast of men had very little marriage potential. I'm not even talking about the finale episode. I'm talking about, like, I look back on even some of the men that were eliminated with six people left. And I'm thinking, I don't think any of these dudes were marriage potential.

Like, the cast needed a really bad job at finding men who were, one, ready to humble enough to not just want the fame of it all, but want the love from it. And then that matched Jen. And maybe that is because they didn't know Jen was going to be the bachelor until the very end. but I did not think this cast of men had a lot of marriage winners in it, I would say. Yes, Ben, I completely agree with you. These guys obviously were so not ready for marriage. And I, oh gosh, it's so awful to say,

but I think a lot of them were there for Maria, don't you think? It does feel like the kind of the personalities of these men matched more of like the Maria type. Devon does. Yeah, it definitely does. There are some guys from charity season that we did forget. Braden, obviously. Braden Bowers.

Braden, okay, okay, Braden. Obviously is a name that we probably should remember. So, you know, there was John Henry from... John Henry was cute, but like, and he played a big role in Paradise. Yeah, but I don't like associate him with the season. But that's real. I mean, we're not wrong. in saying that this you know this cast i think will remember a few more names from uh i just think

cheer i think jen did a really good job at helping us uh know this cast i think she asked really good questions i think she was very engaging and i think she spoke her mind which allowed for really fun conversations to watch throughout the season so with all that being said up to the final like final episode, this was an enjoyable season to watch. I was invested going into last night and incredibly curious about how last night would go because you and I did stay, which hasn't happened. I did not stay completely unspoiled for Joey season. Well, that's because you became friends with Joey.

I was pretty unspoiled for Joey season. And last night, well, let me tell you this. I was pretty unspoiled up until within the past week. I heard from a really good friend who said that Devin had slid into her DMs. And that sort of spoiled things for me a little bit. I didn't know exactly how it was going to end, but I knew that they weren't together. Is this a good friend from the show? No.

So some random friend that you have. Exactly, which makes it worse. You're telling me that Devin is so hungry and active that this comment, and we're going to get into it. a lot more later, but this comment from Jen that he was following Maria, which I felt like had more to it than what was just being said on television because with all that happened, I don't think she wanted to absolutely destroy him on national television. And I definitely don't think he wanted to try to like protect himself because it would have made him look terrible. But you're telling me that comment from Jen where she says you follow Maria obviously had more weight to it

because he didn't just follow Maria before the freaking finale could even come out. out, he was messaging random humans, not from the show. I'm pretty sure she said that. She was like girls, including Maria, most notably. Yeah, it's just like, yes, this girl followed him just because, like, she's been a fan of him from the show, like this personality. And then, yeah, then he DM'd her. So much to get into there.

We're going to cover that. And so much. Good for him. We're going to follow, we're going to talk about that and so much more as we continue. but let's start with the breakdown of the episode. Let's start at the beginning. We see the date and the time with Marcus. Marcus has always been a frontrunner since night one, obviously. Marcus and Jen have had this connection, but the storyline going through this season has been Marcus just can't get there. I do think that this has been a secondary storyline to most. It was a

secondary storyline to the Sam M, Sam In, and also to kind of even Jonathan going home unexpectedly. But this week we really get to focus on Marcus and where his feelings lie. His feelings, as he communicates, just aren't there with Jen. It surprises me that they couldn't get there. I know, and there are rumors upon rumors on Reddit about a lot of these contestants. Those are things that have not yet been proven true. So I have to look through the filter of what I know from the show to make any type of assumption or comment on this.

So taking any of the stuff that's going on outside of the show into perspective, I appreciated Marcus's honesty. I do appreciate the fact that he wasn't pulling a Devin and saying the right thing so that he ends up at the end and then ultimately breaking her heart or her breaking his heart, after the fact. And so I think within the vacuum of the show, Marcus's way of communicating with Jen

and how they say goodbye to each other was probably the most respectful way you could do it. Yeah, except for like, he kind of wanted to stick around. Yeah, he was just kind of like seeing how long he could last until he had to get down on one knee. He like was down to go on the date. She made the right move and being like,

no we're not going to do this and you know what's interesting is that like she says that her feelings for Devin were stronger and we read that different the entire season do you think that we were wrong or do you think that there's like an edit in her head that her are you asking me if I think her feelings for Marcus or for Devin were stronger

than Marcus I'm assuming that that is a little bit of a visionist history that she's telling yourself. Yeah. She's looking back and at the end going, you know what, it's always been Devin, which is a fair thought to have, especially as you're sitting across from somebody kind of having this breakup, you're like, it's fine, because I have the person I've always been more into. I don't think, and the show makes it, it doesn't really come off on television. It's really hard to have a clear favorite. I think it has happened in some seasons. And I think that is true love. And we've seen that true love last.

I think it's really hard to have a clear favorite for much longer than the last few days because you're so, you're compartmentalizing so much and your brain has kind of trained itself to have all these separate relationships. It's hard to kind of compare and contrast until it really gets down to two. And you see where those two lie. Okay. Very interesting. I do think, I do think there's some exceptions.

I think the Jojo Jordan thing's an exception. I think Dotten and Charity are an exception. I'm assuming with Zach Shell crossed the season and Katie I think that's an exception I think there are some exceptions No No I don't think I'd put Caitlin and Sean in that category

All right well Do you want to talk about the family meet and greets real quick Because just like overall The family didn't seem to be down with either dude I don't know that anybody would have gotten their approval though They just are not for this process. Yeah, they're definitely not for the process now. I'm assuming after last night.

But the family, and I also know the producer's influence on the family in those moments. And so for Jen, she's been produced for about six months of her life at this point, right? She was on the Bachelorette or on the Bachelor. Now she's on the Bachelorette. She kind of understands the game. That's an important thing to know. she understands the language they're using and how they're trying to kind of like manipulate the situation or manipulate her or speak into her. She's gotten it. She's become a pro and she listens

when she wants to listen and she doesn't when she doesn't want to. For a family, it's a little different. You walk in blind. You're here for a few hours and you have four producers being so nice to you and making sure that they're so hospitable to you and that they're your best friend and they tell you how great your sister or daughter is and how wonderful she's doing. And then they get into the truth. And they're like, but gosh, the guys are just terrible. You know, this is why I love that you were at that part of the process. You know, and I wasn't. So it's hilarious to hear this. Yeah, but you can, but you've been around long enough to know this is not an untrue statement. That this could be definitely, this is definitely how it goes down. And they start to just use these

subtle language that they believe is subtle. I think it's very clear to see through it once you're in it long enough to kind of distract from their actual own personal opinions. So they come in and the show knows that Jen's family is going to have a hard time with this process. They know they're going to be hesitant to give anybody their approval. And so the show starts to play into that and starts to really start to stab at that and open up this feeling for them being like, no, I got to protect my sister. No, I got to protect my daughter

because these guys aren't ready for her. But don't they make it seem like one person's better than the other? Most seasons, I think on this season, they knew exactly. I think the show had a really good idea of how this is going to play out. I think they knew Devin

and they knew how he was probably going to respond to the fame and to the attention and to, and the show knows these contestants. site than her. Yes. The show knows these contestants really well. With Marcus,

at this point, they already knew he was doubting. And they're like, this is not a guy that has ever been that into Jen. And so as a result, let's play that up. And the show loves a new ending.

I think that's something we're going to talk about later. The show loves a new ending. They love something that's shocking that they can market as something that's never happened before. The show loves it they always have. and so I think in their mind they had this idea

that we know how this show is now going to end we know this new ending and so this is what we can do to help it out but you know what's really weird is when the teasers happened the beginning of the season was happening

and we were talking about it here and calling our prediction for the ending the first week of July second week of July they weren't broken up they were together and then why did all of us it's almost as if

it was like a self-fulfilling prophecy or that's probably not the right term something so what you're saying is it's like the whole tease was that she was going to end up alone right and then she ends up alone but when we were all predicting that she was going to end up alone she actually wasn't yeah so what you're saying it is that the marketing has always pointed to the fact that jinn wasn't going to be happy at the end or she didn't find anybody at the end. And yet at that time, when the show first started, she was with somebody. So she was happy, right?

Yeah. I mean, she's certainly going through it. My point to what I just said before was the show knows these contestants well. I think they always knew that Devin wasn't going to make it through this. After the final rows. Yeah, they knew this attention. They knew that he was seeking, you know, this approval from the audience. and as soon as this became really exciting

and maybe his DMs did start to fill up with people being inquisitive like, hey, if you're not with Jen, I'm here. The show knew that he would jump on it. Because to be honest, the show, and it's creepy. I have many stories,

and I can't share him here. I have many stories about how the show before, you know, when I'm even off of it, have said something about somebody. and it ended up being true maybe a year later, maybe two years later the show knows these contestants so well, it's creepy

Do you think that they had any hand in changing Devin's mind or that they just knew his personality well enough because like seriously they are just, they're like they're like they're like psychiatrists

they know the burns so well I'll say this I don't think the show has, I don't think their best outcome for this season was that the two of them end up together. And so, you know, Devin has a producer that he's become really close with. So how this works is when you get to the end

of the show, whatever producer has connected most with you throughout this season ends up being kind of your one-on-one producer for the last few weeks of the show. So when you get down to the final four, each contestant ends up getting a one producer for them. Instead of like five different producers speaking into them, it's one.

And so that producer ends up becoming a really good friend. You end up trusting this producer. You end up caring about this producer. And quite frankly, I do believe for the most part of the producers care about you as well at some level, you know, because it's their job and because if they didn't

it's a really hard couple months of their life. And then this producer kind of stays with you post show, especially if you're Devin. They're going to talk to you every day. They're sending you a text. They're checking in on you, et cetera, et cetera. Not in like a manipulative way, guys, in like a, we're informing you about like how your life is going to be over the next few weeks. Like this is going to happen in the next episode.

Yeah, they check in. Like that. Yeah. Like you're going to have to come for this and yeah, you hear from them a lot. But as Devin starts, as the producer starts to think that Devin is looking outward to other things outside of Jen, I don't think that producer was necessarily trying to support him and coming back to Jen. I think they were probably like, tell me more. Oh, that makes sense. Yeah, you know what? It's hard. Of course you were doubting your feelings going through this process. Remember when we talked about it in Tahiti, how you were doubting your feelings? Yeah, you know what? We probably should have been more honest at that point. And then all of a sudden he has this person on their side sent, you know,

coaching them up. They end up breaking up. And then that producer calls the executive producers within the next five minutes being like, hey, Devin and Jen, they're not together anymore. And Devin's, you know, out there messaging girls on Instagram. And then the whole new storyline begins. So that's a long-winded way of saying

that I don't think the show pushed them apart. I don't think the show also tried to bring them back together. Based on my experience, because I know in my experience, as soon as somebody in my relationship started doubting, the producers were very much in favor of supporting that doubt. Okay. Well, can we just skip to it, the doubt, the after the final rose? Because I need to know about your-

Jen's brother was great. Can we just say that? I mean, I think he deserves a mention on this show. I think he deserves a mention on the podcast. I mean, very protective, very intuitive, you know, obviously for how the ending work. Big Star, which we've seen multiple times. you know, as these seasons have progressed, that somebody in the family really becomes a big star. He becomes a big star last night. He was all over social media. And, uh, and just I thought he

was a really good big brother in this process. Yeah, totally was. My boyfriend's professor is way too friendly and now I'm seriously suspicious. Well, wait a minute, Sam. Maybe her boyfriend's just looking for extra credit. Well, Dakota, it's back to school week on the okay. Storytime podcast, so we'll find out soon. This person writes, my boyfriend has been hanging out with his young professor a lot. He doesn't think it's a problem, but I don't trust her. Now, he's insisting we get to know each other, but I just want her gone.

Now, hold up. Isn't that against school policy? That sounds totally inappropriate. Well, according to this person, this is her boyfriend's former professor, and they're the same age. And it's even more likely that they're cheating. He insists there's nothing between them. I mean, do you believe him? Well, he's certainly trying to get this person to believe him because he now wants them both to meet.

So do we find out if this person's boyfriend really cheated with his professor or not? To hear the explosive finale, listen to the OK Storytime podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hi, my name is Enya Umanzor. And I'm Drew Phillips. And we run a podcast called Emergency Intercom. If you're a crime junkie and you love crimes, we're not the podcast for you. But if you have unmedicated ADHD... Oh my God, perfect.

And want to hear people with mental illness, psychobabble. Yes, yes. Then Emergency Intercom is the podcast for you. Open your free IHeartRadio app. Search Emergency Intercom and listen now. Imagine that you're on an airplane and all of a sudden you hear this. Attention passengers. The pilot is having an emergency and we need someone, anyone to land this plane.

Think you could do it? It turns out that nearly 50% of men think that they could land. the plane with the help of air traffic control. And they're saying like, okay, pull this, and so this. Pull that. Turn this. It's just, I can do my eyes close. I'm Manny.

I'm Noah. This is Devin. And on our new show, no such thing. We get to the bottom of questions like these. Join us as we talk to the leading expert on overconfidence. Those who lack expertise lack the expertise they need to recognize that they lack expertise. And then, as we try the whole thing out for real. Wait, what?

Oh, that's the run right. I'm looking at this thing, see? Listen to no such thing on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hola, it's Honey German, and my podcast, Grasias Come Again, is back. This season, we're going even deeper into the world of music and entertainment

with raw and honest conversations with some of your favorite Latin artists and celebrities. You didn't have to audition? No, I didn't audition. I haven't auditioned in, like, over 25 years. Oh, wow. That's a real G-talk right there. Oh, yeah.

We've got some of the biggest actors, musicians, content creators, and culture shifters sharing their real stories of failure and success. You were destined to be a start. We talk all about what's viral and trending with a little bit of chisement, a lot of laughs, and those amazing vibras you've come to expect. And of course, we'll explore deeper topics

dealing with identity, struggles, and all the issues affecting our Latin community. You feel like you get a little whitewash because you have to do the code switching? I won't say whitewash because at the end of the day, you know, I'm me. Yeah. But the whole pretending and code, you know, it takes a toll on you. Listen to the new season of Grasas Has Come Again as part of My Cultura Podcast Network on the IHart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Our IHeart Radio Music Festival, presented by Capital One, is coming back to Las Vegas.

Vegas. September 19th and 20th. On your feet. Streaming live only on Hulu. Brian Adams, Ed Sheeran, Fade, Chlorilla, Jelly Roll, Chon Fogarty, Lil Wayne, LL Cool J, Mariah, Maroon 5, Sammy Hagar, Tate McCray, The Offspring, Tim McGraw. Tickets are on sale now at AXS.com. Get your tickets today. AXS.com. Let's jump into it, Ashley. I'll let you take it away. okay let's talk about you just said that um you know there were doubts i don't even believe that there

were doubts for devon before during the show like not at all actually why i don't think he's that good like you think that he's that good of an actor i don't think he's acting i don't think acting would be the word i would say you think that he was festering doubts in his head before the proposal moment i don't know i i guess i don't know i want to hear why you don't think he was i think there is a Just call me swindled. You know that that's how I always just fall for it. Yeah, I mean, I think what we saw from Devin was this passion and this fight. We kind of saw it all season.

I think it was easy to believe that he was head over heels for Jen based on the words he was saying and the actions he was giving. It's hard for me. I don't think actually, I don't think Devin truly believed he had doubts. until the attention started to come. I think that from, in my opinion, the tipping point for him existed when the attention from the outside world became so strong that he started to go,

but there's this girl that looks great on Instagram. I'm not that into Jen anymore. You know what? I've never been that into Jen. I had all these questions about Jen. I do think, though, he can look back on moments during the season where his, interaction with Jim made him go, huh, maybe this isn't what I thought it was. However, I do think at that proposal and I do think through the last couple weeks, he had zeroed

out. I do believe that's what I mean. Yeah. He's creating this story. I mean, because it would, it's mind boggling to me, I guess, knowing this world and being in this world and being the bachelor at one point in my life. It's mind boggling to me to think that you could be getting down on one knee and asking you know for this engagement if you had all these doubts swirling in your head it just feels so much easier and like we said I would respect it so much more if some of these contestants would just go you know what like let's date afterwards because this this whole thing has too many questions to me right now I'm not making sense of it all it's moving too fast there's been another person involved up until the very end that feels weird to me

that would be, I would respect that decision. And I would not be mad about watching a season that ended that way. Same. I think, however, I do think that there is this pressure. And I'm not trying to give Devin and out here because I have a lot of things to say about Devin. But I do think in this specific situation, there is this pressure that exists when you're on the show to end in a proposal. and sometimes that pressure can become so much that it clouds rational thinking.

Do you think that he, when he was like going to leave last week because the pressure of like not being chosen was getting to be too much and he just didn't want to not be chosen? Do you think that was him trying to get out? It could be. In hindsight, I don't know. I actually don't think so. I'm kind of playing devil's advocate here.

I don't think that was a situation, but it's interesting to think of. It could be. I do think it showed his lack of desire to fight for this relationship. I know. I think that was

definitely proven. I just can't believe him. I can't believe I've been, I woke up in the middle of the night. Whoa. Like, thinking that it was like a dream. I was like, he did that. I can't believe he did that.

Yeah. I feel as swindled by him as she probably she will obviously she feels more but i feel like we all feel like he pulled the wool over his eyes pull the wool over our eyes because at the beginning of this season even from his bio we were like suspect of this guy and then he made us love him and now and and and now he just proves to be the guy that we should have always been skeptical of see i it's interesting for me because as i said earlier none of these guys ever really did it for me in terms of oh, I see them with her at the end and I'm really like supportive of

even if they would have got engaged and like stayed together I think I've already I would always been like yeah but like it's he's not that tight like he had a really weird storyline this season the reason he was around long like for as long as he was because at first he was like very intent on spending time with Jen

and making sure she knew he was into her it's shocking to me that he even made it past the fourth week because it felt like to me he was one of those characters that was going to like try so hard and be so thankful for being there and kind of caused this weird controversy inside the house and then she was going to let him go I never expected him to be there past the fourth fifth week

that's why I thought it was kind of cool Ben it was kind of cool to me to just see somebody be like, oh my gosh, I can't, yes, it was the ultimate underdog story when he was like looking for the rings before all the shit went down. I was like, this is so cool. Like, who would have ever thought? Yeah. Maybe it could be the underdog story. I do think it was ultimately an underdog story. And I think with that in perspective, it gives me my opinion on Devin at this point was he is the underdog. I remember. this scene early in the season that made like that was so relatable where all the guys is i think

was during the strip tease date and he said you know i'm not like all these guys they're all like super strong and buff and like i'm not and i have hair and all this stuff and it was like that's a like that's actually a really cool moment and a really funny fun thing for you to say and it's a relatable thing for you to say i think for up to that point it was still his mindset was i'm just lucky to be here jen is so amazing. I'm so lucky to have her in my life. I'm so interested in what is to come. I don't think he's used to a lot of attention. I don't think he's used to a lot of people being like, Devin, hit me up. Yeah. And as soon as that started to happen, his mindset changed. His ego got in the way of the truth or of who he is as a person. Do I hope he comes back to that someday? I do. I hope

that he comes back to this. Not like, hey, I'm so, I'm down on myself all the time type of person. But I do think he comes back to some reality where he's like, I'm, you know what, I'm lucky to be here still?

Like, I'm fortunate to have a spot on this whole show. And it changed as soon as attention started to come to him. It's obvious, right? It's why he started to reach out. It's why probably the clubbing existed. It's why Jen was so, um,

upset about the clubbing because you know what happens? happens every season no matter who it is the contestants get together if you're with the person or not and people who have been eliminated from the show still have most of the time some like anger towards the lead who eliminated them for whatever reason or they're just like they've moved on and in their mind they tell themselves this story that you know what i'm so much better off without him or her because now i'm going clubbing and i get all this attention i get this bottle service and i get like hit up all the time and like life's so much better that I didn't end up with that person on the show and they honestly kind of just talk smack amongst each other that group chat

talk smack against the lead it's their common enemy it's the common thing that brings them together where they're just you know they laugh and make fun of the lead so devon goes clubbing with other contestants from the show what do you think's happening that gin knows is happening she knows she's not stupid by any means she's not stupid she knows that Devin goes clubbing with Jeremy and yes it's for a client meeting whatever I don't care that part doesn't matter to me

the club part was for client meeting and she knows that Devin is getting infiltrated with kind of not hate speech but just this anger towards Jen and these guys are probably rallying around being like, Devin, look at our life. Like, kind of sucks you with Jen, right? Like, look at what we get to do.

Yo, I'm not in a man's brain, but I don't understand why you'd want anything or anyone besides Jen in that relationship. I'm not saying that he should have. I think at some point in his life, he'll look back and be like, gosh, dang it, I made the mistake. Like, I had an amazing person with me that was committed to me, that wanted me, that wanted to grow old with me.

And I couldn't get out of my own way to think, hey, could I settle down? I'm not saying settling. I'm saying settle down to take that life of the clubbing and the friends and the attention out of it, totally separate myself from it because I have this person that I've dreamed of and that I've wanted. I think when Devin started this show, he dreamed of and wanted and believed he wanted one person.

I think the attention caused him to think, goodness gracious, life is so much better on the other side. There's so many guys in Bachelorette past that like just look at them as examples as to like this plan that you have now or that you had the before last night is just not going to pan out the way that you think it's going to. People want girls find it girls like we want you to be with the lead. We want you to have a happy, you know, ending. and there's nothing attractive about what you did. These girls are not going to want to be with you now. You might get a few in the DMs that want to,

but you've just disgusted 99% of these girls, and now you're going to be walking around with a big red flag. You have that scarlet letter on you now because of what you did to Jen. Yeah, the truth is this, and we would tell any contestant, and you're right, there's great examples of this in the past. you can talk to people who've gone through that season of life and came out of that season of life and have gone, goodness gracious, like, that was not a fun season. I hit my ultimate low and now I had to rebuild and reheal and try to figure out how to build something different

for myself. There's a lot of examples of that. You're never going to get away with it. You know what I mean? Like, you're going to get caught. You're going to get caught. Hence me saying I have a friend who's DMs you already slid into. Yeah. It's not a, it's not a healthy path. It's, it's if i don't i'm not one to give advice but i would say this is a very clear by if history tells us anything it's a very clear path that does not lead to joy fulfillment love and hope it leads to a lot of like really lonely times uh and and and that comes from you know experience and so this is this is a decision that feels best in the moment it's a decision made without understanding what this looks like in two, three years,

I'm sure they'll get a lot of attention. I'm sure we'll see on Instagram for the next four or five months these guys going to the clubs, going to the bars, going to different events together, posting pictures of each other. And I'm sure it's going to look like the best time ever. But that time fades. And what happens when it fades? You're left at the end going,

I could have done it so much better. So, you know what? To summarize all of this about Devin specifically, I think if I was to talk to him on the show or talk to him on the phone, I would say I think you made a really bad decision based on what felt best in the moment and not based on what you've always dreamed, desired, and cared about. Yeah. and I'm just saying appearance wise if you were caught like I don't think I don't condone this idea

but if you really were caught up with your ego and wanting all the girls that were following on Instagram and you wanted to go clubbing in New York and you wanted to have all that like female attention and you wanted to play this right you would stick with Jen

for quite some time make everything look wonderful and romantic and then you guys could break up later well i mean give him credit for the authenticity at least you know he didn't drag her long any longer lots of lots of dumb moves but i'm sorry to even say that out loud but like all the moves that he made were awful and he deserves the consequences of the move that he did make my boyfriends professor is way too friendly and now i'm seriously suspicious. Well, wait a minute, Sam, maybe her boyfriend's just looking for extra credit. Well, Dakota, it's back to school week on the OK Storytime podcast, so we'll find out soon.

This person writes, my boyfriend has been hanging out with his young professor a lot. He doesn't think it's a problem, but I don't trust her. Now, he's insisting we get to know each other, but I just want her gone. Now, hold up. Isn't that against school policy? That sounds totally inappropriate. Well, according to this person, this is her boyfriend's former professor, and they're the same age. And it's even more likely that they're cheating. He insists there's nothing between them. I mean, do you believe him? Well, he's certainly trying to get this person to believe him because he now wants them both to meet. So, do we find out if this person's boyfriend really cheated with his professor or not? To hear the explosive finale, listen to the OK

Storytime podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hi, my name is Enya Umanzor. And I'm Drew Phillips. And we run a podcast called Emergency Intercom. If you're a crime junkie and you love crimes, we're not the podcast. for you. But if you have unmedicated ADHD... Oh my God, perfect. And want to hear people with mental illness, psychobabble. Yes, yes. Then Emergency Intercom is the podcast for you. Open your free IHeartRadio app. Search Emergency Intercom and listen now.

Imagine that you're on an airplane and all of a sudden you hear this. Attention passengers. The pilot is having an emergency and we need someone, anyone to land this plane. Think you could do it? It turns out that nearly 50% of men think that they could land the plane with the help of air traffic control. And they're saying like, okay, pull this, until this. Pull that. Turn this. It's just, I can do it in my eyes closed.

I'm Mani. I'm Noah. This is Devon. And on our new show, no such thing. We get to the bottom of questions like these. Join us as we talk to the leading expert on overconfidence. Those who lack expertise lack the expertise they need to recognize. so they lack expertise.

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He never thought he was going to get caught. And I just looked at my computer screen. I was just like, ah, gotcha. On America's crime lab, we'll learn about victims and survivors. And you'll meet the team behind the scenes at Othrum, the Houston Lab that takes on the most hopeless cases to finally solve the unsolvable. Listen to America's Crime Lab on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Janica Lopez. And in the new season of the Overcover podcast, I'm taking you on an exciting journey of self-reflection. Am I ready to enter this new part of my life? Like, am I ready to be in a relationship?

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Honestly, these are going to come out so freaking amazing. Be a part of my new chapter and listen to the new season of the Overcumper podcast as part of the MyCultura podcast network on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. I actually felt like last night he didn't come off as bad as what they potentially could have. I thought Jen was respectful to not air all the dirty laundry. because I think she has enough receipts to probably like

make him look pretty bad right now and I think she held a lot in for the sake of you know respect at any level yeah and it felt like a lot of the stuff she was saying was not exactly digging into the details of the situation because she knew the details

were really ugly and I think he kept bringing up like excuses and I think every time she looked at him like do you really want to make use that excuse because I have more information you know that I could share and you know I do yeah he kind of kept his mouth shut a little bit because he just kept saying I'm sorry

like I'm well like you know I'm sorry he never like was like but this you did this it was not that he did keep saying like it was my bad it was my bad it was my bad yeah he didn't he didn't say much uh he knew he didn't say much he didn't have i watched it again honestly because i was like did he explain why he has no explanation his explanation would make him look so much worse than what last night did is his explanation has to be yeah i started to get in these

dms i got a lot of attention and yeah yeah you know what like i moved on and it would make him look worse so he didn't he knows he didn't have any way out of this and i honestly think this night, last night, was haunting him for a long time. I like how he says he didn't have to be there. Of course, he does. It's contractual. There's no way he wasn't showing up to that thing. Yeah.

Either he loses his entire net worth or he shows up to a live event. So I love that he's like, I didn't have to. I just want to check in and make sure you're okay. That's BS. We all know it. But his- I just want to make sure you're okay. So I decided to do it right here live on stage.

He's been dreading this moment for a long time, I think for him, he thinks he just had to get through last night, and then this all calms down. She was very nice on her Instagram saying, like, don't spread hate, like, don't go to his profile and say mean things. Like, you know, that's just not good energy to put out there in the world. No, the truth is, Jen is going to shine. She's going to come off of this thing. We're going to talk about some of the stuff that's already been announced for her and the upcoming feature. She's going to shine.

She's going to be a star. She's going to get all the attention that all these guys have always wanted. and they're going to slowly fade off into the distance and go back to the normal lives, which is a great thing, but I hope when they go back to their normal lives, they can actually go back to a normal life and not walk down the street like we know some have

that has a shirt that says, yes, I was on The Bachelorette, you know, and make sure that everybody knows that at one point in my life, I was on this random television show with 30 other people and chosen, and so you should give me a lot of attention for it. I hope none of them do that.

It's a really bad way, It ends up not ending well. But Ben, we have to talk about the proposal, her decision to propose and then their decision to air it the way that they did. No, 100%. Let's talk about the worst treatment of a lead that's ever been done on the show, in my opinion. Wasn't there one other moment that we felt was very similar a couple of seasons ago? We've had many moments where the show has kind of exploited the pains of the lead for their. you know, gain or for the social media part, I think last night was, in my opinion, at least to

my memory, my note was this has to be the worst treatment of a lead of all time. It felt unnecessary. One, like unnecessary. That's like some of the times where the lead has had to like sit through some awkward moments on national television. We can make an argument for why it was necessary either it cleans up a story it solves a story it fills some gaps it speaks to maybe some hate that they've been receiving and you know the general public maybe doesn't know why this last night was unnecessary at every level it could have been done and a thousand i could come up right now as somebody doesn't get paid to produce nor should i ever get paid to produce a thousand different ways that still creates a story that still creates buzz but doesn't put

put her through something completely cruel and unnecessary because that's all it was the whole time. This, watching this, it felt like I was watching unreal. Remember the Lifetime show? That was like basically the behind the scenes. The dramatization of The Bachelor was what that was. Yes. It felt like a parody of The Bachelor.

And then I was like, oh, it was actually unreal. Like you could almost hear the producers in the back room. feeding lines to Jesse because Jesse also to me and I sorry Jesse it sounded like he was reading from a script well I think we both like Jesse we both feel like he's done as well as he can filling in and now kind of having the show as his uh there's no there's no issue with Jesse here what I said last night and my very uneducated opinion is Jesse's very busy right now it's college football season. Jesse is flying in and out and mostly focusing on college football because that's now his job for the next few months. It's always been his job. It felt like last night

Jesse showed up to the live show to go through rehearsals and he heard about this thing happening and he like wasn't on top of it enough to put a foot in the ground and be like, I'm not doing it because he does have that ability. He does. Instead, it felt like he was just like, okay, I got to do that. fine let's do it goes through the whole thing everything happens and then he gets in that moment and he's like crap i'm unprepared for this i don't know what to say during this moment so i'm just going to say the same thing a couple times over to try to make it seem like we care or that i care but like the caring seems so insincere from him it felt like he was getting words from the earpiece well it maybe you think you think he was basically because i think he was unprepared i

don't think he had been involved in the last few months enough in this show to know exactly the tone or to know exactly what was happening or to hear how the updates were or to actually listen to how Jen was feeling. Jen was sitting up there saying, I am crushed. Like I am like right now I'm at my lowest point. I'm bawling on national television. Jesse, do you ever think I wanted to do this? Do you ever think I wanted to wear this nice dress, put this makeup on, have this incredible season, go through all this experience, and sit up here and cry for 20 minutes with you? No. So please, please, Jesse, as a lead, as somebody had sat with you and had dinner, as a friend of yours, as somebody who's trusted you, because in this whole experience,

there's very little people to trust, please, Jesse, don't put me through this. I'm already sad. I'm already crushed. I have nothing else to give you. And if Jesse, one of to. As I said, if he was prepared for this, he would have said, you know what? Jen, I don't care what the show thinks. You walk off the stage here. You go backstage. We're going to watch a finale and we're going to make Devin sit out here and watch it with us. We're going to make Devin sit on this couch alone. And we're going to have a camera on the whole freaking time. And Jen, you go back and you heal and maybe if you're okay after the finale, come back out when Devin's not here and just like say your last five minutes to the audience

of what this experience meant to you. Mm-hmm. Yeah. His transition from you are a strong woman and you made your choices and you grew from this and we are all and all of you. Now it's time to watch your proposal. Do you want to watch a proposal to prove to yourself

how strong you are and how, you know, what a woman you are? Oh, that I know I didn't have all the right words there in remembering what he said. But it was something like that. And just the transition from like, you are so powerful. Are you ready for us to play this thing

that like you never want to see? And then I love the fact that she said, do I really have a choice in this? Yeah, I love the respect and the buildup for you've made strong choices. You are powerful. You've done it your way. And then for that moment for her to be like,

you've said all these things about me. And I think she laughed because I think in the back of her head, she's like, I was prepared for this. I've heard this was happening. I said I didn't want to do it. I said I wouldn't come out here even if you were going to do this. And now I sit here on live television. Live TV. Yeah. And I'm going to tell you right now, I don't have a choice. So you've respected my choices. You've praised me for making good choices or making my choices. And now, in the moment that matters the most, you're not giving me a choice. It was subtle in the fact that Like, I don't know that, like, a lot of people thought it was as big of a deal that she said that as it was for us to hear, but it was a big deal because there's moments where you get, like, caught and you're just like, I don't want to do this. And I can't believe this is about to happen. But here we go. Like, this is the nail in the coffin. And, yeah, it would have been, like, why there are so many things. First off, they should have just aired the proposal the way that they normally would have aired the proposal right after.

you know, they picked out the rings and then they could have sat down and it just wouldn't have been nearly as cruel. They did this, this weird thing where they were going to, where he was like, you know, we can't air this until after we talk to her was, all it was was like, we're just going to be extra cruel. Nobody in the audience thought that that was a good move or that was a move that was going to make them feel more. We don't need to feel more. We don't need to feel more devastated for her. She doesn't need to feel more devastated for herself or embarrassed. It's absolutely the weirdest.

I don't know what was going through their mind when they decided to do it like that. It would have been fine and very typical, honestly, to show a proposal and then to show the couple not together in the live portion. One thing I think this moment does show us is the realness of the show. show. And I think the audience members, the people that view it, need to understand. And we need to understand that there is a realness to this show. These are real people. They're not actors who are experiencing real emotions. For Jen in this moment, this was a very real moment. She thought she had found her forever love. She thought she had found a guy who was going to stay with her

and fight for her and stick beside her through all of this mess. We're seeing her emotion come out and we're seeing her breakdown and really have to relive a breakup that she still sounded like she still has a lot of questions about. And that was very short. And so I think it does show for us, the realness of the show for some people. I don't think this show was ever real for Devin. I think it was maybe for a few weeks, I guess. but I don't think since the proposal and since, you know, he got distracted and he started

to believe this story that wasn't, you know, reality and that is not long lasting and is not sustainable. I think for the last few months, this show has been a stepping stone for him to go to whatever he thinks he's going to. For Jen, she's at her stepping stone. She is a star. She was a lead. She made it through it. She navigated the process. She stayed with it the whole time. and now she sits there at the end of this, broken. And I think for her, this has always been very real. And so I think as a viewer, we need to understand that her emotions that we saw on that stage

are her real emotions that she felt through this process. I also think Jen was probably told to keep ABC happy by doing this rewatch of the proposal because, you know, she's announced with Dancing with the Stars. Is that this morning? that happened this morning? I believe so. I've been in those situations before, right? I was told I can't do dancing with the stars because I wasn't doing everything to keep everybody happy. I know that she is now probably and she should be. She's looking what's next because this whole

thing sucked. This whole thing didn't end it like I wanted to. I've now bald on national television, which I don't think anybody's judging her for or criticizing her for. But she's now saying, hey, I'm moved on, and if I want something good to come from this, maybe it's dancing with the stars. They've offered it to me. I know all I'll have to do is sit through this thing tonight, as much as that sucks. And so I'm going to do it. So I don't really have a choice is what she's saying. My boyfriend's professor is way too friendly, and now I'm seriously suspicious. Well, wait a minute, Sam, maybe her boyfriend's just looking for extra credit. Well, Dakota, it's back to school week on the OK Storytime podcast.

So, we'll find out soon. This person writes, My boyfriend has been hanging out with his young professor a lot. He doesn't think it's a problem, but I don't trust her. Now, he's insisting we get to know each other, but I just want her gone. Now, hold up. Isn't that against school policy? That sounds totally inappropriate.

Well, according to this person, this is her boyfriend's former professor, and they're the same age. And it's even more likely that they're cheating. He insists there's nothing between them. I mean, do you believe him? Well, he's certainly trying to get this person to believe him because he now wants them both to meet. So, do we find him?

down if this person's boyfriend really cheated with his professor or not. To hear the explosive finale, listen to the OK Storytime podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hi, my name is Enya Umanzor. And I'm Drew Phillips. And we run a podcast called Emergency Intercom. If you're a crime junkie and you love crimes, we're not the podcast for you. But if you have unmedicated ADHD, ADHD...

Oh my God, perfect. And want to hear people with mental illness. Psychobabble Yes, yes Then Emergency Intercom is the podcast for you Open your free Iheart Radio app Search Emergency Intercom And listen now

Imagine that you're on an airplane And all of a sudden you hear this Attention passengers The pilot is having an emergency And we need someone Anyone to land this plane Think you could do it? It turns out that nearly 50% of men

Think that they could land the plane With the help of air traffic control And they're saying like, okay, pull this, until this, pull that, turn this. It's just, I can do my eyes close. I'm Mani. I'm Noah. This is Devin. And on our new show, no such thing, we get to the bottom of questions like these.

Join us as we talk to the leading expert on overconfidence. Those who lack expertise lack the expertise they need to recognize that they lack expertise. And then, as we try the whole thing out for real. Wait, what? Oh, that's the run right. I'm looking at this thing. Listen to no such thing on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. My name is Ed. Everyone say hello, Ed.

I'm from a very rural background myself. My dad is a farmer and my mom is a cousin. So, like, it's not like... What do you get when a true crime producer walks into a comedy club? I know it sounds like the start of a bad joke, but that really was my reality nine years ago. I just normally do straight stand-up, but this is a bit different. On stage stood a comedian with a story that no one expected to hear. The 22nd of July 2015, a 23-year-old man had killed his family. And then he came to my house.

So what do you get when a true crime producer walks into a comedy club? A new podcast called Wisecrack, where stand-up comedy and murder takes center stage. Available now. Listen to Wisecrack on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Your entire identity has been fabricated. Your beloved brother goes missing without a trace. You discover the depths of your mother's illness, the way it has echoed and reverberated throughout your life, impacting your very legacy. Hi, I'm Danny Shapiro.

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I want to transition, though, because I do think this was unnecessary and cruel, and I do think there was a thousand other ways they could have done it. I do think that last night's finale, the whole time I watched this, It was unrecognizable to me. The show has made a lot of mistakes. The show has done a lot of things that have turned people off. Leads have said things that have made people critical. Contestants have done things that have made people upset.

I think last night, and the way that they made their lead, their person who has devoted so much time, and I know people think that she made a million bucks from this thing, she didn't. I could tell you the amount of money that you make, the lead, at least in my day, isn't really even an annual salary for most people. So she's not getting paid fat cash to do this thing. So don't ever think that's a part of the equation. Last night was so clear of what the show wanted to get out of that moment

and it felt so intentionally cruel to me and so intentionally vindictive almost towards gin that it was unrecognizable to me in all of my years of being a part of the show that's why I'm saying it felt like unreal because it's unreal

was basically like everybody would say to me is that show for real is that show for real and I'd be like oh no it is like the Bachelor

but like on crack like it is like the most over the top version that they come up with it is like it is a parody of it that's why

last night it was wild to see something that seemed as if like it was a it just seemed to be so over the top I just don't know why they would ever think that that was a good move

because no one is asking for that drama nobody's asking to watch somebody be ruined I don't I don't understand I really don't understand what was going to their heads let's dive into the unrecognizable part as we close out this thought you're confused on what's going on in their heads the producer's heads I think for them they knew this would be talked about.

They knew we'd get on the show today, the Almost Famous podcast, and talk about this moment. They knew social media would keep this thing, you know, trending and going because of last night's moment.

There is a level that I think is beneficial to the show even if it's bad press because it gets people talking. It keeps the brand in their minds. It keeps them angry and upset. And I do think they think,

I don't know if this is true or not, that people will, tune in to the next season and to the next thing because they heard about it last season. I think they're wrong there. I do too. I'm not agreeing with that thought process. I think there's a lot of other ways they could have done this. And I think they already had their storyline.

And I think people were already going to talk about it with or without that moment. This whole thing goes down a lot better if they don't have that moment on camera. Because then it makes it seem like it's a show. Like you've been not, you and I've been saying it just. seems to me to be like transparent in which like there's so much tampering with the storyline and there's so much manipulation going on behind the scenes that people are just going to be like oh this show's fake anyway this shows it's a fake show and this just made it seem like it was more of a fake show because their puppet strings showed so much we know only one executive producer still

left on the show from our time our personally yeah we personally we personally only know one executive producer. I am going to be shocked and he listens to this show. This did not come from him. There's no way. And if it did, I would be so confused because this is not

who he is. I know it's not who he wants to be and it's not what drives him to continue to produce this show. This is the least him. This had to come from somewhere else. In fact, it had to come from somebody that we don't know because in all the people that we know. And hey, I will never tell you that producing The Bachelor is like the most value-based job,

that their morals and their character are intact the whole time. I will tell you that manipulation happens, that there is always the storyline that's being created. I will tell you that the people that produce the show aren't terrible people. I like them, most of them, some of them. But being a producer on the show is not the, like, not the most, like, fulfilling job. However, the show has always had empathy. it's always had a line it doesn't cross.

It's always respected and treated the lead with the utmost respect and try to protect them if they could and they didn't have to take away from the story being created. Last night was unrecognizable to me because there's no way that anybody that I know that worked on that show said, yes, this is the good idea. Yes, this is what the show is about.

Yes, this is what our audience wants. It feels like they just took 20 steps back. Yeah. There was a new, we'll say this. There was a new staff, a new, like, a number of new, like, head honchos came in about a year or so ago. And it left a lot of the people that Ben and I were close to during our time in the show. It either, like, it drove them to want to not be there anymore. And I feel like this moment is going to kind of like clear out. everybody else that you and I were friends with. Yeah. We've had people, you know, come off the show as producers now and spoken, you know, publicly about why they left the show and what, you know, reasoning they gave to leave the show. And all those reasonings make sense.

These people do have a line they don't cross. They're not like these evil geniuses sitting in a room being like, how are you going is it destroy this person, this person, this person. It's not what they, they have families. Like they're, they have families, they're married, they have friendships. they don't like love pain and last night this this moment the only thing that came out of it was pain for gin and I think pain for the viewers to be like how in the world am I going to waste this much of my time watching somebody just hurt and suffer and then we're going to make

them suffer a little more we're just going to make we're going to watch them in one of the most like brutal moments of their life to their memory, we're going to make sure we focus in on it. There was no reason for it, completely unnecessary, something that I am very much against personally. I watched Jen last night as our first Asian bachelorette have the courage to say yes to this role and step out into that role and to do this role.

I also saw her get incredibly taken advantage of on her last five minutes of television, really, for this show. And you know what they did for me? You know what they did for me in my last five minutes of television? What? They gave me the stage. And they said, Ben, say what you want to say. They gave me that space.

So I got to stand up there and say, hey, I know this is my 15 minutes of fame. I just appreciate the time and the, you know, the courtesy of watching me and supporting me and doing this thing with me. You know how different that is than what they did the gin? So unnecessary. They could have done it so much better. Worlds apart.

Again, not to just keep bringing it back to the show Unreal that hasn't been on the air for at least five years. But the characters in that show, they made it seem like the producers were truly soulless. Like they had absolutely no character that they were evil people that wanted to make people destroy it and cry. And that's what it felt like last night.

And that's just not who, the people that, the few people that we were, that we know, no, that remain there. It doesn't feel a character for them. And I just know it wasn't them. No, it wasn't them. It's a very, very hard ending to a really great season. Jen did a great job as a bachelorette.

It was an enjoyable season to watch for the most part. How absolutely weird was it also that they were like, well, as this girl cries on the couch next us, we're going to bring in the golden bachelorette. Can we just, like, end the show? Let's not change the tone now. it was so weird it was very weird well social media is talking about it doesn't seem like many people that we uh that i follow aren't they didn't enjoy last night um assuming the uh this is a

brand new conflict the shows opened up for them so uh themselves they did to themselves uh there is no other excuse other than the fact that they said yes to a decision last night that will ultimately i think hurt to show not only to its current viewers but potential viewers in the future. But I will say the same sentiments that Jesse said. Jen, as our bachelor app, you did great. Thanks for letting us watch you from the Almost Famous podcast. Whatever's next for you. We hope it's a lot better than what last night was. And we know and believe just based on who you are that the future is very bright. It's only up from here because the show made sure last night, it only went down.

So, Jen, best of luck, continue to be you. That's been another season of The Bachelorette that we've broken down. Obviously, our thoughts are our own. They're not anybody else's, but they feel like they're the mass majority of viewership. So if you disagree with us, let us know. If you loved watching Jen cry on national television last night, as she had to reminisce and remember her proposal moment,

let us know that too. I'd love to hear why you think that. But until next time, as we enter into a short off season, until we get into the Golden Bachelorette, which we watched a little preview for last night, I've been Ben. I've been Ashley. Bye, guys. Follow the Ben and Ashley I, almost famous podcasts on IHartRadio,

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Listen to Betrayal Weekly on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Dr. Joy Hardin-Bradford, host of the Therapy for Black Girls podcast. I know how overwhelming it can feel if flying makes you anxious. In session 418 of the Therapy for Black Girls podcast, Dr. Angela Nealbarnett and I discuss flight anxiety. What is not a norm is to allow it to prevent you from doing the things that you want to do, the things that you were meant to do. Listen to Therapy for Black Girls on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.

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