The Ben and Ashley I Almost Famous Podcast - Kathy Experiences A Huge Dating Faux Pas and DeAnna Dabbles in Dating

Episode Date: November 23, 2025

Kathy and DeAnna are taking over and letting us hear their girl chat! Kathy is spilling all the disastrous details of a long-distance date that crashed and burned, and DeAnna is celebrating a birthday as a single divorcee! What has Kathy learned from this recent dating situation gone wrong, and does DeAnna have a new man in her life?? See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast, Guaranteed Human. On this week's episode of Next Chapter, I, T.D. Jake, sit down with Denzel Washington, a two-time Academy Award-winning actor and cultural icon for a conversation about change, identity, and the moment everything shifted. I mean, I don't take any credit for it. It's nothing I did as special. know, then knocked down a few pegs and recognize it, but I just didn't put me first. I just put God first, and he's carried me. Whether you're rebuilding, reimagining, or just trying to hold it together, this one will speak to you.

Listen to the next chapter podcast on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. New episodes drop weekly. Don't miss one of them. On the podcast Health Stuff, we are tackling all the health questions that keep you up at night. I'm Dr. Priyankawali, a double board certified physician.

And I'm Hurricane Dibolu, a comedian and someone who once Googled, Do I have scurvy at 3 a.m? And on our show, we're talking about health in a different way, like our episode where we look at diabetes. In the United States, I mean, 50% of Americans are pre-diabetic. How preventable is type 2? Extremely.

Listen to health stuff on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey there, Dr. Jesse Mills here. I'm the director of the men's clinic at UCLA, and I want to tell you about my new podcast called The Mail Room. And I'm Jordan, the show's producer. And like most guys, I haven't been to the doctor in way too long. I'll be asking the questions we probably should be asking, but aren't. Every week, we're breaking down the world of men's health from testosterone and fitness. to diets and fertility.

We'll talk science without the jargon and get your real answers to the stuff you actually wonder about. So check out the mailroom on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get, your favorite shows. What do you get when you mix 1950s Hollywood, a Cuban musician with a dream, and one of the most iconic sitcoms of all time?

You get Desi Arnest. On the podcast starring Desi Arnaz and Wilmer Valderrama, I'll take you in a journey to Desi's life, how he redefined American television, and what that meant for all of us watching from the sidelines waiting for a face like hours on screen. Listen to starring Desi Arnaz and Wilmer Valderrama on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Podcasters, it's time to get the recognition you deserve. The IHard Podcast Awards are coming back in 2026.

Got a mic? Then you've got a shot. Every year, we celebrate the most creative, compelling, and game-changing voices in podcasting. Is that you? Submit now at iHeartpodcastawards.com for a chance to be honored on the biggest stage in the industry. Deadline December 7th. This is your chance. Let's celebrate the power of podcasting and your place in it.

Enter now at iHeartpodcastawards.com. IHeart Podcasts bring you the ultimate summer of love treat. This is famously available. Hey everybody, welcome to famously available. I am one of your dating best. besties, Deanna Stagliano, and I'm here with my very good new dating bestie. Kathy Swartz, I'm right here with you. So excited to catch up with you on Girl Chat, what's going on in your life.

And happy belated birthday, Diyah. Thank you, my darling. This is so exciting because usually it's me and Ben. And listen, I really love Ben. I think he's a gem, a true gym. But, like, how much fun is it that you and I can just. talk girl to girl about all of the things that are going on. This makes me so very happy, Kathy.

So let's jump in. Tell me what's been going on with you. And then I'll tell you all the fabulousness not that's been going on in my life. Oh my God. What is going on? Okay, I just turned 44. I know. A child.

You look fabulous. Thank you, darling. Thank you. So many good things. I have so much joy and peace in my life right now. My birthday was amazing. It was just super low-key. It was just me and my friends and the women that I love. And it's not my first single birthday, but I will tell you this. It's the first birthday that I didn't drink

alcohol because, as you know, I don't drink anymore. And it was one of the best birthdays that I have ever had. I just had such a wonderful week being surrounded by great people. I got to do some filming with some bachelor, bacheloretts, really. That was a delightful. And I just, I have many wonderful surprises. Thank you guys for sending me some crumble cookies. I enjoyed every last bite. And I have tons of flowers, which just bring me so much joy. So wait, let me ask you if, I mean, I remember back, you've been single, how long? Well, seven years. Okay. So it was it, was it felt weird to you? Did it feel weird to spend your birthday? You said with people that love you, and I'm assuming people you love. All women. All women. I will tell you.

that a man sent me the most beautiful bouquet of flowers. Oh, wow. Okay. Well, look at all those beautiful. Oh, they're gorgeous. Well, I want to hear about that man, but I, you know, my birthdays, I'm a few years older than you, Dee, as everyone knows.

But I remember when my husband died, and we're coming up on Christmas, holidays, I will say, are still tough for me. Birthdays are tough because it's just marching through another year, another trip around the sun, which I'm through. It beats the alternative for sure. But I have trouble celebrating my birthday being made the center of attention because I don't have anyone to share it with. Yes, my children, I love them. They always make a big deal about me for my birthday. But I still, my husband made such a big thing about my birthday. So it still feels empty to me. I love that for you, Kathy, though, because you were

married for so many years. What a great example and a way for him to set the stage for this other really wonderful part of your life. You have a whole other life to live, Kathy, which is really beautiful. And when you do find someone and you are dating someone, they do have big shoes to fill. Right. What a beautiful story that you had this man. And that's not dismissing that there are ups and downs and marriages and relationships. But what a wonderful gift that you had this man that made you feel so loved and so beautiful and celebrated you on your birthday. Like, that's really beautiful. Well, you know, birthdays have always been a big thing in our family. So, yes, it's great. It's great to be celebrated by your children and your friends. And every year somebody has a

party for me, go out for dinner, the cake, the whole thing. And it's always fun. But I never forget those fun birthdays. And then now, here we are, you know, barking up the tree of Thanksgiving and Christmas. And I have to say, when I was on The Bachelor, everyone said, you know, I was crazy for Christmas. And literally my house is already decorated. I saw your Instagram going through all of your little Santa Claus's, your little chochkeys. I saw it. Yeah. Well, I made, I needlepointed a lot of those. And so that represents years of work. But I love, but I will be, I'll be honest, it's very difficult for me to to decorate, to get through the holidays, because I love, my family and I love the celebration, but I always, I dreaded in a way as well. And I think people

who have lost spouses or been through a divorce or lost a child, loss in general, the holidays are tough for people, or at least for me, but I think many people who have suffered loss because your mind goes automatically back to quote unquote those better times when your family was together, when you had that spouse. So for me, putting up the true. tree and playing the Christmas music, I'm going to cry, that I did with my kids and my husband. It's really hard. And I don't know if that's hard for you. I love it hard.

So much. And I am so glad we were able to do this today because I just genuinely love you in your openness. And I love that we are in two different walks of life. You know what I mean? I believe I'm wise beyond my years, but that's because of thousands of dollars worth of therapy. But it's neither here nor there. But I just relate to you on so many levels. But what we are going to do right now is we're going to give two different perspectives.

And I love that. So although we have walked through similar things, which is both grief, right? You have walked through the physical loss of a loved one, a spouse. And what I equate divorce to is grief. What I have had to do is mourn that relationship and put back into bed. Well, that's why, Dee, that's why, not to interrupt, but that's, That's why I always say, people say, oh, Kathy, your husband died by suicide. That must be the worst thing.

How do you move on? I always say the same thing. Loss is loss. And your divorce, losing a child, losing a spouse, losing a job, whatever the loss is, we all have to learn to adapt and how to walk forward. And in my case, I've done, I also have spent thousands on therapy. but I'm glad I did because I walk in the light now. I walk happily looking forward to the next day of my life,

you know, to what surprises I wake up grateful every day. Absolutely. And I think you emanate that, Kathy. I really think you do a great job at emanating that and you have a wonderful story of someone who has overcome grief. So what I want to touch on here is that we're very different in the sense that I don't. I really enjoyed my birthday as a single person. I really, really grieved the loss of my marriage. And I put that one to bed. There was when I was still living in the same home with my ex-husband and my children, those firsts were really hard because we were still trying to pretend to be a family. It was just like it was torture the entire time. And I don't feel that anymore. I feel, you know, it's funny that we're doing this dating show because, is someone has big shoes to fill for me,

like really big shoes to fill Kathy because I'm very comfortable on my own. I am not out seeking a relationship. If something lands in my path and it is the right person and it's really great, I will joyfully welcome that. I am very secure on my own. I am very confident on my own.

As am I. My birthday as a single one, woman was amazing. I woke up in a hotel after spending the day with a bunch of women that I love laughing and being together. And I woke up with a heart full of gratitude with the love that I have for these women. What a beautiful experience. We have all been the lead of a television show. I looked around that room at these women and just smiled because I thought no one will ever know what it has been like for us. What a great group of women. meant to be a part of. And my heart was so flipping full, Kathy. And then I got to come home. And I got to

sit in my own really clean house. And I got to take a nap. I got to meet a friend in the afternoon for coffee. And then I got to go to Trigger Joe's and buy all my favorite things. And then I got to come home. And there were cookies on my doorstep from famously available. And there was the largest bouquet of flowers from a man that I find attractive and I enjoy conversation with. But the truth of the matter is, I spent my birthday the way that I want to. Right. I spent it with the women that I love the most. Right. The fucking women, Kathy, have put on boots and trudged through the absolute mud with me when I was at my lowest and not one of them, not one of them tossed me out like a bag of trash because it was too much. Right. This group of women that were here proved to me that

then I'm not a broken little girl, then I am worth loving. A decade ago, I was on the trail of one of the country's most elusive serial killers, but it wasn't until 2023 when he was finally caught. The answers were there, hidden in plain sight. So why did it take so long to catch him? I'm Josh Zeman, and this is Monster, hunting the Long Island serial killer, The investigation into the most notorious killer in New York since the son of Sam, available now. Listen for free on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts.

On the podcast Health Stuff, we are tackling all the health questions that keep you up at night. Yes, I'm Dr. Priyanka Wally, a double board certified physician. And I'm Hurricane Dibolu, a comedian and someone who once Googled, do I have scurvy at 3 a.m. On health stuff, we're talking about health in a different way. It's not only about what we can do to improve our health, but also what our health says about us and the way we're living. Like our episode where we look at diabetes. In the United States, I mean, 50% of Americans are pre-diabetic.

How preventable is type 2? Extremely. Or our in-depth analysis of how incredible mangoes are. Oh, it's hard to explain to the rest of the world that, like, Your mangoes are fine because mangoes are incredible, but, like, you don't even know. You don't know. You don't know. It's going to be a fun ride.

So tune in. Listen to Health Stuff on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What do you get when you mix 1950s Hollywood, a Cuban musician with a dream, and one of the most iconic sitcoms of all time? You get Desi Arness, a trailblazer, a businessman, a husband, and maybe, most importantly, the first First Latino to break prime time wide open. I'm Wilmer Valderrama, and yes, I grew up watching him, probably just like you and millions of others. But for me, I saw myself in his story. From plening canary cages to this night here in New York, it's a long ways.

On the podcast starring Desi Arnaz and Wilmer Valderrama, I'll take you in a journey to Desi's life. The moments it has overlapped with mine, how he redefined American television, and what that meant for all of us watching from the sidelines, waiting for a face like hours on screen. This is the story of how one man's spotlight lit the path for so many others and how we carry his legacy today. Listen to starring Desi Arnaz and Wilmer Valderrama as part of the MyCultura podcast network

available on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey there, Dr. Jesse Mills here. I'm the director of the men's clinic at UCLA Health. And I want to tell you about my new podcast called The Mailroom. And I'm Jordan, the show's producer. And like a lot of guys, I haven't been to the doctor in many years.

I'll be asking the questions we probably should be asking, but aren't. Because guys usually don't go to the doctor unless a piece of their face is hanging off or they've broken a bone. Depends which bone. Well, that's true. Every week, we're breaking down the unique world of men's health, from testosterone and fitness to diets and fertility, and things that happen in the bedroom. You mean sleep? Yeah, something like that, Jordan. We'll talk science without the jargon and get you real answers to the stuff you actually wonder about.

It's going to be fun, whether you're 20. 27, 97, or somewhere in between. Men's health is about more than six packs and supplements. It's about energy, confidence, and connection. We don't just want you to live longer. We want you to live better. So check out the mailroom on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.

Podcasters, it's time to get the recognition you deserve. The IHeart Podcast Awards are coming back in 2026. Got a mic? Then you've got a shot. Every year, we celebrate the most creative. compelling and game-changing voices in podcasting. Is that you? Submit now at iHeartPodcastawards.com for a chance to be honored on the biggest stage in the industry. Deadline December 7th. This is your chance. Let's celebrate the power of podcasting and your place in it.

Enter now at iHeartpodcastawards.com. A couple of things you said. I, first of all, on the shoes to fill, no one. one's going to fill my, and nor do I want another man to fill my husband's shoes. I'm looking for a new chapter in my life. So that's maybe one difference, or maybe it was just your trace of words. But the other thing where I think my age has helped me a little bit, I don't, a lot of people, when someone dies by suicide, they'll say, you know, what did you do wrong? I didn't do anything wrong. And I don't need when you said toss me out like yesterday's trash i don't need anyone to tell me my value i have lived a lot of life um i i celebrate who i am every day and whether that's with men or women

i don't need people to bolster me up i need friends i need support we all need that but i don't i don't let anyone determine my self-worth except for me and i think that comes i wasn't always that way. But it sounds like maybe your divorce was a little more acrimonious than some, maybe not. And if your ex-husband made you feel like a bag of trash, I'm really sorry because you are a wonderful woman. And I think that's sad. So I hope that you can get to a place where you can have a great birthday by yourself or with your friends. But don't ever, my advice that you're not asking for is don't let any person ever make you feel like yesterday's news, yesterday's trash, a bag of trash, anything that has that negative pejorative connotation

because you are a lovely woman. I've gotten to know you. You're lovely. You're smart. You're charming. You've got great kids. You have so much going in your life. Having said all that, I don't need a man to make me feel complete. I am complete just the way I am. I would love to find someone. I think the relationship I'm looking for will absolutely look different from my relationship with my husband. I mean, I was married almost 46 years. We raised kids. We moved homes. We built careers. All of those things that I'm not looking to do now. But I will say I ventured. I was going to get into this. The reason I asked you about your dating life, I had a really bizarre. I've had some dates.

And as I said to Ben, when we talked, I struggle to find men to date because my age belies my energy level. And I have lots of energy to do fun things and I'm adventurous and I have a big heart. And my heart while it was shattered when my husband died, it has grown and it's open and ready for the next relationship. That is all a preamble to say that for me, dating naps have not been great, which is why I'm so excited about this opportunity, because people who know me are going to set me up, hopefully, on these great dates. I had a very good friend who I've known 40-something years, calmish from the East Coast and said, I think I have a guy for you. And I said, okay, I was actually going to visit them for a weekend. And so that's when I met this guy. And it was unbelievable.

I thought, oh my gosh, you know, this is my time. I've been through, kissed a lot of frogs, all the things that we say when we're dating. I remember you sharing about him when we were at the Jonas Brothers concert a few months, whatever, a month or so ago. Yes. I remember you were really excited. I was because we talked on the phone and I thought, I can't. I learned a couple of things. When Ben asked him, what kind of guy I was looking for, I do want a guy who laughs and loves adventure.

This guy, a little more circumspect, a little more quiet like my husband was, dry since humor. So the thing I'm learning is there's always lessons to learn, no matter how old you are, no matter how many men you date, this guy, the red flag for me was his wife died about seven months ago. maybe eight months ago now, but she had had cancer and had suffered for almost two years. And so I thought, okay, he may not be ready to date, but we have to be vulnerable. We have to put ourselves out there. Men are not coming to our door and knocking. So, you know, when you said, if I meet a man, they're not going to come to your door, we have to put the energy in.

So I did. And it went great. And then he asked me to come back for a five-day. four days to go to a football game with him, to go out for dinner with him, to go to a shrimp, a party, a neighborhood, shrimp oil or something, some, you know, neighborhood gathering, go to, we had all these plans. I get back there, staying with my friends again, and I'm there 20 minutes, and he tells me that he's dating a woman that he met before me.

Yeah. They'd had six glorious dates in six days. And I just looked at him and I said, why didn't you understand he was still calling me. He was still. He had you still come to his home to visit? Yes. And I said, so when he told me, I said, why didn't you call me and tell me? And he said, because I thought we were dating. And I thought I owed it to you face to face. And I said, as kindly as I could. No, we weren't dating this weekend was to see if we were going to date. And in that moment, I felt the woman, everything he told me he was looking for. He said he liked that I was independent. He liked that I have my own podcasts and that I do things with Bachelor. He said, I'm not looking for a woman who needs me. I mean, everything, we were so aligned. So when he said that, I was stunned. And I said, I wish you. had called, it would have made. So I spent four days with my friends who I've known them for years. It was a lovely visit with them. But I was so humiliated because all of the people in that

neighborhood, I know these people. I've known them for years. They're saying, how's it going with them? So it was really hard. And here, so for me at this age, and I was going to ask you where you are in this, for me, every date, every experience I have, I try to take a lesson from. And I always say things like, well, Kathy, you know, he hadn't evolved enough from the death of his wife. He said he was ready to move on, but he really wasn't. And I feel like I should have, I'm not being hard of myself, but I should have said he's in the candy store. I'm aisle one and I'm great chocolate. You know, I'm just European fabulous chocolate.

You buy chocolate for all. Thank you. But he's looking down at aisle six going, what else is there? Nerds are not long-lasting. Right. My metaphor is, exactly, my metaphor is, I want to be the girl at the checkout line. I don't want to be. And so I think I was trying to give him grace that maybe he was ready to find his partner

because she had had cancer. He told me he was ready. But I've got to tell you, it was a gut punch because I just thought, you know, You have to, there has to be, you have to open your heart, you have to be vulnerable, and really you have to be lucky. So it was rough. Here's what came to mind for me is that you're telling me that men don't change at any age. D, I don't think they do.

I really don't think they do. People have asked me, and I will tell you, he asked me, and people can't believe this, but he asked me if things didn't work out with her, if he could reach out to me in a month. Absolutely not. Absolutely not. I will be no one's second choice. Absolutely not. I am not your learning experience.

No. And then he said, well, could I call you? I've listened to your podcast. You would give such great advice. Could I call you? And I said, I don't think so because I don't give dating advice to men I thought I was going to date. Hey, Kathy, do you know what was a really hard lesson for me? Yeah.

No thank you is a complete sentence. Yeah. You're right. Thank you is even better. Well, you know, I try to walk away with grace and I'm proud of myself the way I walked away with that. But I think the lesson for me is the same lesson for you. And that's why I want to hear about your dating experience lately.

I always say, listen to what people do, men and women, not what they say. Their actions will tell you who they really are. And that's what made it hard with this guy, his words and action. I mean, guy can really kiss. he had his arms around me, even the day that he told me. So his actions and his words belied what he said to me. And that was so difficult. And I thought, oh boy, men don't change. That's kind of what I thought. I'm in, this is something I'm going to have to deal with until I'm lucky enough to meet the right one. My gosh, thank you so much for sharing that. And I just let me say

like woman to woman, friend to friend, someone who cares about you. I'm really sorry that you had to go through that. There's a million different ways and we can run the gamut here of there's a million different ways that he could have handled that. Stop letting you travel to see him and not tell you that was just poor choice, man. Poor choice. When you're doing long distance, there has to be this open means of communication before you hop on an airplane to go and see someone. By all means, you're right. Save someone. I have to be honest. If he called me, people have said if he calls you, you know, would you talk to him? There's a part of me that wishes he would call me because when he said, you know, I'm going to start, I'm going to date, I'm going to date

more women. Do you know what I said to him? You should. You should date a lot of women. And then you're going to realize that I was the best woman. You met me. You met me quickly. And too bad you didn't realize it, which I know sounds pompous. But, hey, listen, do you know what I'm going to tell you when he does call? Don't answer the phone. there are pieces of us that we have to listen to our gut. It is literally our soul, telling our purpose to put us on the right path. And he's not it, Kathy. I know, but I thought it was strange, Dee, when he said to, when he said, you know, I'm going to date.

I can't remember if he asked me if I was dating other men, but I always find that a strange question when men do ask me that, because I, when I meet a man, I'm interested. in, I want to go down that road and see if there's a relationship they're worth developing. A decade ago, I was on the trail of one of the country's most elusive serial killers, but it wasn't until 2023 when he was finally caught. The answers were there, hidden in plain sight. So why did it take so long to catch him? I'm Josh Zeman, and this is Monster, hunting the Long Island serial killer, the investigation into the most notorious killer in New York since the son of Sam, available now. Listen for free on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your

podcasts. On the podcast Health Stuff, we are tackling all the health questions that keep you up at night. Yes, I'm Dr. Priyanka Wally, a double board certified physician. And I'm Hurricane Bolu, a comedian and someone who once Googled, do I have scurvy at 3 a.m. On Health Stuff, we're talking about health in a different way. It's not only about what we can do to improve our health, but also what our health says about us and the way we're living. Like our episode where we look at diabetes. In the United States, I mean, 50% of Americans are pre-diabetic. How preventable is type two? Extremely. Or our in-depth analysis of how incredible mangoes are. Oh, it's hard to explain to rest of the world that you, like, your mangoes are fine because mangoes are incredible,

but like, you don't even know. You don't know. You don't know. It's going to be a fun ride. So tune in. Listen to Health Stuff on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What do you get when you mix 1950s Hollywood, a Cuban musician with a dream, and one of the most iconic sitcoms of all time?

You get Desi Arnest, a trailblazer, a businessman, a husband. And maybe most importantly, the first Latino to break prime time wide open. I'm Wilmer Valderrama, and yes, I grew up watching him, probably just like you and millions of others. But for me, I saw myself in his story. From plening canary cages to this night here in New York, it's a long ways. On the podcast starring Desi Arnaz and Wilmer Valderama, I'll take you in a journey to Desi's life. The moments it has overlapped with mine, how he redefined American television, and what that meant for all of us watching from the sidelines, waiting.

for a face like hours on screen. This is the story of how one-man's spotlight lit the path for so many others and how we carry his legacy today. Listen to starring Desi Arnaz and Wilmer Valderrama as part of the MyCultura podcast network available on the IHard Radio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey there, Dr. Jesse Mills here. I'm the director of the men's clinic at UCLA Health. And I want to tell you about my new podcast called The Mailroom. And I'm Jordan, the show's producer. And like a lot of guys, been to the doctor in many years. I'll be asking the questions we probably should be asking, but aren't. Because guys usually don't go to the doctor unless a piece of their face is hanging

off or they've broken a bone. Depends which bone. Well, that's true. Every week, we're breaking down the unique world of men's health, from testosterone and fitness to diets and fertility, and things that happen in the bedroom. You mean sleep? Yeah, something like that, Jordan. We'll talk science without the jargon and get you real answers to the stuff you actually wonder, about. It's going to be fun, whether you're 27, 97, or somewhere in between. Men's Health is about more than six packs and supplements. It's about energy, confidence, and connection. We don't just want you to live longer. We want you to live better. So check out the mailroom on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.

Podcasters, it's time to get the recognition you deserve. The IHeart Podcast Awards are coming back in 2026. Got a mic? Then you've got a shot. Every year, we celebrate the most creative, compelling, and game-changing voices in podcasting. Is that you? Submit now at iHeartPodcastawards.com for a chance to be honored on the biggest stage in the industry. Deadline, December 7th. This is your chance. Let's celebrate the power of podcasting and your place in it.

Enter now at iHeartPodcastawards.com. Okay, this is a question that I'm sitting in. I am wondering is that I am I am casually dating well I'm sorry getting flowers from a guy is casual dating I want his name I need his name I will not give his name I will not are you saying that's casual we are friends we have known each other for some time we're friends of friends we have decided a few weeks ago that both of us are interested in something more exploring what that is He is older than me by...

How much older? I think about 15 years. He should be dating me. If it doesn't work, I'll hook you up. Oh, remember, excuse me. Did we just have the conversation? I don't take somebody sloppy seconds. No, it's not sloppy seconds.

It could be that he is wonderful. He just wasn't right for me and he could be really right for you. I don't see anything wrong with that. What I'm getting at is there is the age difference. I don't make rash decisions, Kathy. I almost think things through obsessively, and most of that is, comes from trauma. Divorce, I have made it very clear, has been really, really awful for me. It was very traumatic.

I don't know that I want to get married again. Living with someone again really terrifies me, all of those things. And I realize those are my pieces to carry. And also in the same sentence, I'm telling you that I am open to being with someone. and hopefully finding a great love of my life. All right. So what I'm asking you is, I turned 44, he's 50, almost 59.

He's like you, Kathy. He sees what he likes and he wants it and he's not messing around. He would like to be seeing me. He would like to only be taking me out. He would like to only be holding my hand in public. So I know what he wants, but now I want to know what do you want. I have a really hard time with public displays of affection.

Really hard time with that. Do you want to date other men? Are you attracted enough to him to, you know, close down all other options? I don't know. Here's where I'm scared. Because we were friends before, I teeter a very fine line of I don't want to ruin a friendship. Wait, I have to interrupt you. Think about it this way.

The person that you want to find, if he starts out being your, best friend, that is such a huge component of a great relationship. You've already got that one knocked out of the park. Think of it in a positive way. I think I have said this multiple times on the podcast, Kathy, is that I am a person who leads with fear. I lead with fear. Most of my choices in life, I lead in fear. And because I am really great at overthinking, I can think overthinking. I am constantly in a state of like, oh, is this too much? Is it not enough? Is this right? Is it not right? I cannot live in the moment and just allow someone to come into my life and treat me really great whether it works out in the long run or not. I have to constantly

be thinking, oh, well, if I kiss him, then moving on to the next stage. What if I'm not ready for the next stage? What if I just want to be friends? What if I just think he's just really great friend and I don't find him romantic? What if? What if? What if? What if? He's 58 and he's an old man and I'm not, there's the level of sexual attraction is not there. I've never dated someone that much older than me. I typically date, maybe this is my problem, guys that are younger than me is what I have always done. Okay, so let me lay it out. If, if for anyone who is listening, rewinds to the first episode when I'm telling Ben all of these things that I want, I'm telling Ben, I want someone who shows up for me. I want someone who makes me feel safe. I want someone who

dotes on me and and really gets to know me and has that emotional intimacy, all of these things, right? What if this guy does those things? He has proven over and over again in the last few weeks. He calls when he says he's going to. He texts when he says he's going to. He takes me out to dinner. He sent me the most beautiful bouquet for my birthday. Okay, so Dee, you put it out in the universe, it's happening. And you know what I think this is? Not that you're asking my opinion, but you know what I think it is? You have been beaten up badly in your marriage. Can I just say you deserve this guy? Let yourself, let yourself enjoy the fact that someone really wants to be with you. Don't sit to question it. Why me? Why is he like me so much? I don't deserve it. Why me?

Because I think that's what you're doing. I'm not, you know, I'm not a therapist, but you deserve. And again, this is my age. We, I've learned that we all deserve kindness and love and good care. And if this guy is checking off your boxes, I would say you are running with fear instead of opening your heart, being vulnerable and say, hey, this is what, what I've done before hasn't worked. So this opportunity has come my way. And here he is, right?

I'm going to give him a chance. And if nothing else, Dee, if nothing else, he's going to remind you that there's good men out there always, even if he's not the one. But right now, you seem like you're in handcuffs, emotional handcuffs. You're afraid. I am. Do you know what the vision in my head? And I'm shared this with multiple people is that, like, I have my claws in so deep in my own life. I am, I want control so bad that like my knuckles are white because I cannot, I just cannot let go. Because your life was out of control. I mean, again, I'm not a therapist, but it sounds like, During your divorce, your life was really out of control. And now you have, in your words, a nice, clean home to come home to.

It's your solace. It's your protected place. And you can control your life as much as you can, because you don't have to answer to somebody else right now. And if you let somebody else in, then you're going to have to. And that's fear. It is, it is a lot of fear. I'm willingly said that.

I'm not denying it. I'm going to encourage you to give him a shot. I am giving him a shot. I am making no rash decisions whatsoever. I do worry about crossing a line and never being able to go back. You know what I mean? That it will change our friendship forever. And I do worry about that. Can I just give you one? Let me just, again, at my age, I have some male friends, none of which I would date. Actually, I've got one very good male friend who we dated and we don't. We dated and he didn't want to date me. after a while it didn't work out but we're still really good friends so why not try this why not see again if you're if he knows you he already knows your fears he knows your if you're good friends with this guy he knows you already he already brought up the podcast Kathy like like oh he did well I listen I am not a liar that is not something that I am and anyone that has come in my direction I make it very clear that I'm doing this.

Like, I'm doing this podcast. It's a great opportunity. I love podcasting, but it's also a great opportunity to meet someone just like you. Right. And he already was like, yeah, I mean, I know that you're doing this, but like, I'd be lying if I said I didn't want you going out with other guys. Otto, what are you kissing anybody else? I don't want you going out with anybody else.

What if you fall in love? So you didn't answer the question. How do you feel about that? Do you still want to date other guys? Or is that just a defense mechanism? I don't know. I don't know. I'm dating six guys, so none of them are really that important.

If anything falls off the wagon, so what? Kathy, I am having so much fun with this, but we've got to take a pause. I think that there's, I think there's a lot more to dive in here. On this week's episode of next chapter, I, TDJ, sit down with Denzel Washington, a two-time Academy Award-winning actor. and cultural icon. I don't take any credit for it. I just didn't put me first.

I just put God first, and he's carried me. Listen to the next chapter podcast on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. New episodes drop weekly. On the podcast Health Stuff, we are tackling all the health questions that keep you up at night.

I'm Dr. Priyanko Wally, a double board certified physician. And I'm Hurricane Dibolu, a comedian and someone who wants Google. Googled, do I have scurvy at 3 a.m. And on our show, we're talking about health in a different way, like our episode where we look at diabetes. In the United States, I mean, 50% of Americans are pre-diabetic. How preventable is type 2?

Extremely. Listen to health stuff on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey there, Dr. Jesse Mills here. I'm the director of the men's clinic at UCLA, and I want to tell you about my new podcast called The Mailroom. And I'm Jordan, the show's producer. And like most guys, I haven't been to the doctor in way too long.

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