The Ben and Ashley I Almost Famous Podcast - Red Flaggy with Kat Izzo

Episode Date: January 30, 2026

What really happened between Dale Moss and Kat Izzo?? Kat is here to share her side of the story now that her relationship is “deaded” with Dale.We get into one of Kat and Dale’s early arguments, what happened after they broke up, and why she’s speaking now.Plus, what are Kat’s thoughts on Dale making TikTok’s with a specific Bachelor Nation alum? See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed human. In the middle of the night, Saskia awoke in a haze. Her husband, Mike, was on his laptop. What was on his screen would change Saskia's life forever. I said, I need you to tell me exactly what you're doing. And immediately, the mask came off. You're supposed to be safe.

That's your home. That's your husband. Listen to Betrayal Season 5 on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, it's Joel and Matt from HowTo Money. If your New Year's resolution is to finally get your finances in shape, we've got your back. Prices that are still high and the economy is all over the place. But 2026 is the year for you to get intentional and make real progress. That's right.

Each week we break down what's happening with your money, the most important issues to focus on, and the small moves that make a big difference. Kick off the year with confidence, listen to How to Money on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What if mind control is real? If you could control the behavior of anybody around you, what kind of life would you have?

Can you hypnotically persuade someone to buy a car? When you look at your car, you're going to become overwhelmed with such good feelings. Can you hypnotize someone into sleeping with you? They gave her some suggestions to be sexually aroused. Can you get someone to join your car? HULP was used on me to access my subconscious. Mind Games, a new podcast exploring NLP, aka neurolinguistic programming.

Is it a self-help miracle, a shady hypnosis scam, or both? Listen to Mind Games on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You know, we always say New Year, New Me, but real change starts on the inside. It starts with giving your mind and your spirit the same attention you give your goals. Hey, everybody, it's Michelle Williams, host of checking in on the Black Effect Podcast Network. And on my podcast, we talk mental health, healing, growth, and everything you need to step into your next season, whole and empowered. New Year, Real You. Listen to Checking in with Michelle Williams from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

This is the Ben and Ashley I Almost Famous Podcast with IHartRadio. Hey guys, welcome to the Almost Famous Podcast. It's Ashley. I'm flying solo today. And I'm very excited to talk to somebody who I think is one of the people from the Bachelor franchise who she's just meant to be a reality star. And I don't know that we've had a ton of people like that lately. And she fills that category.

It is Kat Izzo. she was actually you were Hey Kat, what's up? You were on with Ben. Nice to be with you. You're with Ben a couple months ago in person after Bachelor in Paradise wrapped but now of course we have a breakup that we have to dive into.

And gotta ask off the top you must be like a little nervous about breaking into the breakup because Dale has sent you a cease and desist about it. Yes, you got that right. he did. I don't know. I'm never word, but yeah, it's different. How does he

legally, how are you legally able to send somebody a season desist when it's a relationship and not like you breaking a contract that we have, say, for the Bachelor? You know, I don't know the answer to that. You're going to have to ask the men because that is like

just something that I will never understand. I mean, I guess if I was like running around at the time and like saying like crazy things and like it was affecting his business and income and some capacity but i hadn't even said anything yet so it was really interesting yeah that's so crazy that's what he said after but before you did any podcast interviews you're brave woman for being here no because honestly it was the fact that he sent me at that it was like i'm going to now go say everything because like you're not going to like

try to make me silent that's crazy uh but it came from the fact that he that he was like he was went to press and said that we broke up because we were, I guess, better off his friends is how he worded it. When they reached out to me, us weekly did for a comment, I gave them the truth. I believe that was sent to his team and they never published it. And then I got that letter. Like, I think the next day or the day of. So it just, and I wasn't even going to say anything. I wasn't even going to do podcast about the reading. I was just going to let people like wonder. And they were like, let it move on. I just want to move on my life. But it was because that was sent to me that I was like, well, Now I'm going to, now, now I'm definitely going to talk about it because if you try to silence me,

I probably will not like that. Yeah. Have you watched her on TV? I'm like, yeah, I was just scream louder. Oh my gosh. That, that is crazy. I want to go back in time a little bit before we jump into Paradise. Did you watch Dale's season of Bachelorette back during the Claritatia days? No. Did you know anything about his reputation going into Paradise? No, I just knew he was like an attractive older guy that dated Claire and that they got engaged right away. But I didn't follow him on social media or anything like that. I didn't know like what his story was really like at all. So you really went into Paradise with like a fresh slate in your mind about him.

About everybody. Yeah. Yeah. About everyone. Yeah, I didn't know anything to do anyone. If I was going to do it again, I had to do it different. then the first time I knew everything about everyone and I was on the beach with all my best friends. And I think that was not to my benefit. So I was like, I'm going to go in with like a clean

slate and just not having judgments prior. And it actually was so much better that way. Interesting. That's great. Because then you're like, if it's not working like you leave, like you're fine. You don't have to like before I felt like you're like, well, I set this idea of where I was supposed to leave with. So now I'm going to do all these crazy things to leave with that. That makes a lot of sense. I went in with that mentality to the second season and I abandoned it immediately. Well, the conditions made it really easy to abandon yourself. Like these conditions work so much better.

You could like ground and like journal and like go to bed and air conditioning is so much better. Oh, that's so true. I mean that been like the Puerto Verita, what was it was called. That area when we lived outside and the glass. lamping. That really did make for us going crazy. Oh, 100%.

Like, you can't even feel like your fault. It's kind of fun to go crazy too, you know? I don't need to. I much rather go crazy with air conditioning. With air conditioning? Okay.

Yeah. Yeah. That was, it's, that takes it to a whole other level of like fighter flight that I never want to experience again. It's so perfectly said like that. Yeah.

So when you were dating him, the first week or so, in paradise. There was something that came up and now I'm sorry that I don't remember exactly what it was, but it was an argument I believe about how he spoke to you. And you have to refresh my memory. What was that first argument about? You mean the dead-ed-ed-it argument? Yeah. The dead-ed-it. Yeah, the one that he said that he deaded. Yes, yeah. Well, it originally came from, like, you know, we were so early and we decided we wanted to, like, we're still going to explore other people. I was like, just like, be honest with me. Like, we're living in the same quarters. Like,

so in this, I would say set up was much more private. Like, you could go off and like not see people. So like if something happens or you're interested in someone else, like just have open communication. And I was constantly like, do you like Ali? Do you like Lisha? Do you like anyone? And at the time, it was Ali Joe or Zoe. I was like trying to like make sure that I was aware because I didn't want to like find out watching it back because that's like so horrible. And I kept trying to press for like just and he was like no like you're knowing number one like I only my eyes are only for you blah blah blah. And then like eventually like after rose ceremony and everything happened that next day was when he told me he actually did kiss Ali Joe. And I was like not upset about the kiss. I was like but why didn't you like tell me like what is going on? And that could have just been an opportunity for him to say like I should have like I wasn't thinking and like I'm sorry I'm like we're done. But of course he minimized it used the term dead at it to you know, uh, um, um, emphasize whatever he was trying to emphasize at the time. And it just felt like really dismissive. And then I sat with it more.

Yeah, extremely dismissive. Yeah, extremely dismissive. And then the Roos Ceremony argument was where I was like, oh, I think you don't know how to communicate very healthy because it was kind of the same thing of like, you know, I don't want to understand your feelings. I want you to just, you know, feel like I'm not wrong. But by doing so, he was like using like manipulative tactics that at this point, I know, by like through like it's it's a book like it's a formulae book when it comes to me like i've been

dated a lot of different versions of men one of them mostly being manipulators and so i've studied it and so i kept seeing these like characteristics and then he also brought up like my background of my family which is like triggering for me oh there was that yeah it was just really unhealthy and really red flaggy like i just don't really saying my family wouldn't do that my family is maybe it's our backgrounds like i have no idea but like like it was just not, I wasn't spoken to in the way that, like, you want to be spoken to. And so there was, like, really, like, I was like, oh, I don't know what's going on. Like, I don't like this. And in Paradise or in Ralea TV, you, you want to try to see how they handle conflict and, um, adversity. And I think that says a lot. The only thing that really saved us was that next morning. We had a dead day. Like, the next day we had, like, no, we were just like, we had a day. You weren't filming? No, you just had a chill day. We had a chill day, so we didn't really talk. So it gave us like a day to cool off.

And then he, you know, apologized and whatnot. But, and I get it. Like, it's, I understand being defensive. But it was probably my first, like, red flag of, like, he might not communicate very well. I know. So when I was watching that, I was like, oh, my God, she's so too good for him. Like, I don't want this to get reconciled. Right.

But it ended up being better. And I was like, oh, I don't want her to take him back after he behaved like that around her. I know. I mean, everybody has low character moments. Like, we're not always going to be in our best selves. Like, being able to recognize that, recognize that we have those parts and, like, try to do better next time is, like, what I always look for. But it was still really too early to see if he was capable of that. So, yeah.

I think it's because a lot of the audience was looking at him through the lens of, like, what we've seen publicly throughout the past, like, five, six years. Like, we were looking at him as a character, right? because we've like, oh, we've seen this pattern before based on like things that Claire has mentioned. Yeah, because we know that the Claire thing didn't go well. And I'm sure there's plenty of yucky on both sides. Yeah. But just from talking to Claire, I always like see the red flag looking at Dale. That's funny you say that because when I was watching it back and then even in real time, I was kind of having similar experiences. And I remember like Googling like what Claire had said. and being like, oh, I think I'm still dealing with that.

And it's like five years later. Yeah. And I wasn't perfect. I mean, but I still just, I don't know. It was just, it was interesting to see the correlation still. Did you ever want to reach out to Claire? No, I just didn't want. I know that he was really triggering for her.

So I didn't want any like bad memories like of her past. So I never wanted to like. Yeah. Yeah. And like, it's not, it's really what I'm like dealing with in real time that matters to me. So yeah, that's a good point. And that's very kind of you to not want to put the memory of him back on her in this really wonderful spot of life. She's currently. She's already moved down.

She's living her best life. Like, there's no reason to do that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Things have changed. Yeah.

Do you think that Dale went on Paradise? Because the producers may have said, like, we need to reintroduce you to the audience. And this would be a good first step in you becoming the bachelor one day. Oh, I don't know. I don't know. Yeah. know what they talk about. I mean, I can't imagine he would be the bachelor because he doesn't really like speak in full sentences all the time. I feel like you kind of have to do that.

Like you kind of have to like see people and stuff. I mean, he has moments where he guys, but like not consistently. So I don't know if that was it. But who knows what goes through their head. I think it worked out where he could potentially meet someone, but also like get exposure at the same time, which is kind of like what a lot of people do in the space. But I don't think they promise any of that. But I'm aware that I know. But maybe that was what he was thinking. I don't know.

In the middle of the night, Sasquia awoke in a haze. Her husband, Mike, was on his laptop. What was on his screen would change Saskia's life forever. I said, I need you to tell me exactly what you're doing. And immediately, the mask came off. You're supposed to be safe. That's your home. That's your husband.

So keep this secret for so many years. He's like a seasoned pro. This is a story about the end of a marriage. But it's also the story of one woman who was done living in the dark. You're a dangerous person who prays on vulnerable and trusting people. people. You're a creditor Michael Leavengood.

Listen to Betrayal Season 5 on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. New Year, new goals, and in this economy, a better money plan is more necessary than ever. I am Matt.

And I'm Joel. We are from the How to Money podcast, and every week we help you to spend smarter, save more, and make sense of what's going on out there. If you want 2026 to be the year you finally feel in control of your money, We're here to give you the tools and advice to help you make it happen.

Listen to How to Money on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What if mind control is real? If you could control the behavior of anybody around you, what kind of life would you have? Can you hypnotically persuade someone to buy a car? When you look at your car, you're going to become overwhelmed with such good feelings. Can you hypnotize someone into sleeping with you? I gave her some suggestions to be sexually aroused. Can you get someone to join your cult?

NLP was used on me to access my subconscious. NLP, aka neurolinguistic programming, is a blend of hypnosis, linguistics, and psychology. Fans say it's like finally getting a user manual for your brain. It's about engineering consciousness. Mind games is the story of NLP. It's crazy cast of disciples and the fake doctor who invented it at a new age commune and sold it to guys in suits. He stood trial for murder and got acquitted.

The biggest mind game of all, NLP, might actually work. This is wild. Listen to Mind Games on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey there, this is Dr. Jesse Mills, director of the men's clinic at UCLA Health and host of the Mailroom podcast. Each January guys everywhere make the same resolutions. Get stronger, work harder, fix, what's broken. But what if the real work isn't physical at all? To kick off the new year, I sat down with Dr. Steve Poulter, a psychologist with over 30 years' experience,

helping men unpack shame, anxiety, and emotional pain they were never taught to name. In a powerful two-part conversation, we discuss why men aren't emotionally bulletproof, why shame hides in plain sight, and how real strength comes from listening to yourself and to others. Guys who are toxic, they're immature, or they've got something they just haven't resolved. Once that gets resolved, then there comes empathy, as in capacity. If you want this to be the year, you stop powering through pain and start understanding what's underneath. Listen to the mailroom on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows. What was your relationship like once you got off the show?

Well, let's actually address the fact that there wasn't a lot of pressure this time around to be leaving in a committed relationship. There was no real engagement on the table, which is kind of relieving. Yes. So did you guys leave with like the thought that maybe you would date in real life or that you'd be boyfriend and girlfriend in real life? Yeah, we left us a couple. And we continue to date as a couple. I think every time in this space, you never know how people are going to be when they leave. Because like work, family, priorities, everything life comes into play. And you really see how the other person fits in that space. And I think that's what really makes or breaks a relationship. Then you. you add airing, like watching yourself back, bringing up old, old experiences, dealing with public responses, stuff like that is how you can really see if the person is going to be your partner or not. But we did leave with the idea that we're going to stay as a couple and that I felt like this

time around, we had a lot of experiences in paradise to see, okay, this could actually work. Like we had those really unique challenges. We had some adversity. Then I had all the stuff with my ex and all that nonsense come up and I was able to see him through that. So I felt like I had enough to go off up to feel safe, like leaving boyfriend or girlfriend. So we came off and we were still like trying to see each other. But he was really like strict about us not going out in public. Okay, because he didn't want to get in trouble with the show. Right. Yeah.

Oh, you think there's more to that? No, it felt really weird. Like, I don't know. It felt really weird. I've just never experienced it to that extent before, you know. but who knows? I don't know. It just felt like not genuine.

It just felt weird. I'm like, we could go over big time. Okay. Like, no one, there's not paparazzi. Okay.

Yeah. Yeah. We could walk into a story together like, you know, whatever. Yeah. Worse that's going to happen is like a fan takes a picture and sends it to reality,

Steve. Like, yeah. Yeah. Red it. Right. Yeah. Like we're like it's not like you were the lead of a show going out in public,

which obviously. is a huge no-no, but like, Bachelor people hanging out together that may have possibly been on Paradise, it's probably not that big of a deal. But I also want to give him the benefit of the doubt, like, he might just work. He had experienced that with her. And I was trying to tell him, like, Paris is not the same. And also we're not even engaged. Like, we don't even go, like, you know what I mean? Like, whatever. It was just weird. Yeah. Okay. So when you did hang out together for the first time off camera, what did it feel like? Honestly, it felt fine. He came to seeing you go right away um i worked you know my normal monday through thursday schedule he would like

be at my house and it was really like easy and like nice um but we didn't really have like the opportunity to like do stuff outside of my house so it was kind of just like chill we thought like we were still in paradise almost did it feel like the connection was still very strong i don't know the connection was ever like extremely like there was like i was really like letting things move naturally. And if I'm being honest, like, it's always stayed kind of like in the middle, never been like, oh, I'm so in love or he's 100% my husband. Like, this is my person forever. I've definitely experienced that before. And I think because I don't really create people in my mind anymore, like I allow them to really show me. I was like, it was just kind of like medium, you know.

But I liked him. I was so really excited for our future. And like at that time, like I was like, okay, this could be like something that grows into something great. But it was still really early. So when it wasn't super early, but like when it started airing, so like two months into after like you guys left Paradise, did you go into that press thinking that you were like a strong couple or were you worried that you were going to present yourself as a couple and it didn't feel very good? Which time? When you started doing like the wrap up press like after the family.

Oh, yeah. Well, so at that time, I was going through everything with like Alicia and Sean and all the things that were coming from that. And he was really supportive. So I felt like actually like very taken care of or at least like understood and like like last time I did Paradise. And I went through all like the public hate and all the things with that. I didn't have as much support for my partner. That I think I just did because he wasn't really like capable of that.

So it felt really good to have someone that was like there and like not letting outside opinion and adjust their opinion of me. But it was also really focused on that because it was bringing up a lot of like traumatic memories. of two years ago. So it was, I felt pretty good at that time. And then I think when it was done rapping and we were living our life as a normal couple, like we can go out in public, we can live life, like we can do all the things is when I was like still unsatisfied and feeling just like, there's still more that I needed and I wasn't getting and it was just weird. And so that's when you can really see if there was any good, any longevity with it. And you were just on Bachelor Happy Hour, where you talk about kind of the demise of the relationship happens at a fight in Vegas,

where you had to skip Fashion Week in New York, which you were looking forward to, because he convinced you that it would be fun to go to Vegas for this fight. And then you get there and you realize, like, this is breakup worthy, that you have to live in an influencer house for a couple of days. With all men, with literally all men. I've never put on boxing clubs in my life. Like, it was the day before we were leaving. and I saw the itinerary and I was like, what are these workouts and what am I doing? And I thought

we were sitting in a hotel and like, why are we doing what? This is not like what I thought it was going to be. But at the same time, I'm like, okay, maybe it'll be fun. Like he'll like still like, it'll just be still like we can have time together and like still like spend our time together. And when we were there like I still felt so alone like chased him more. I was having more fun with him and hanging out with him and he was talking to me more than my own boyfriend. It was like so strange. So and then like I'm like upstairs and like not like I, he doesn't even like come to. He was like, he was like, he just did not care if I was there or not. I just felt like I was like kind of an accessory and I don't, I'm not an accessory to anybody. Like we. Sorry. So it felt very. And then at the time,

obviously it was already in my head. So like things were really heightened, I think. But yeah, I know that was so not me. And like, let's say I brought him to an influencer house for like a beauty thing, whatever. And like, you know, they're bringing all the people. I would know that he's out of his space. So I would try my best to make sure that he's comfortable. And I just did that.

So I like kind of compare to how I would move and I was not getting that. And that was like when I was like, wow, I'm literally like just here. So it was just so weird. Oh, I go to the fight. And then he leaves to get a drink for like, hour and you knew that he just ended up chatting and doing business and leaving you in the seat alone. Couldn't tell what he was doing, but I called him and I was like, all right, like, I think I'm in like, he did, he like forwarded my call and I was like, okay, I'm sitting there in these stands like by

myself and he's like, I was like, I think I'm going to go. And he's like, I'm getting a drink, like relax, like blah, blah, blah. And was like really mean to me and did not handle that well. And And I was like actually going to leave. I was like in a calling where I could care less for the fight or not. But he was, you know, came back to the stands and then it was kind of just like being unkind. But like the guy who ran, who like set everything up was like to my right. And then Dale was like to my left. And he's just like, this fight is literally starting.

And he's like going on and on and on. And I'm like, why I can't fight with him because then it's going to look bad in front of this guy. And also like I don't want to like escalate it. But that's when he said the fight at a fight. Yeah, I don't know what that is. And then he was like, if you want someone that's going to be like obsessed with you, like, it's not going to be me. This, I heard you say this in the other interview.

And I'm like, oh my goodness. That is the moment I think I just get up. I couldn't. But also when you're in those moments and someone is saying that to you, you're not thinking like, like I was like, oh, my God. I'm like, I'm too much. Like I'm asking for too much. I am too much like somebody like I had that like insecurity deep down.

So like in that moment, I wasn't. thinking like that's really unkind to say and like rude and maybe like I am wanting too much when I process it I was like no like that's I'm asking for the bare minimum like I'm really asking for the bare minimum and like I'm okay to ask for things that I need or want and like it should it shouldn't be this like hard you know but that's I felt like was a pattern with the communication and then like I said I felt like the way that he argued kind of brought up parts of myself that I didn't really like very much, that I've worked really hard to not be. And you never want your partner to bring out a worse version of you.

So I, yeah, I don't think I was like probably being the healthiest that moment. But that fight was to me like something's got to change. Like I need something different. And then he brought up like my past relationships and like trying to turn it. It was just really like just let's, I don't like being mean. And to your partner when you're having like disagreement. you should never try to hurt them. Like, you can be defensive and disagree,

but, like, to say things that you know are going to hurt their feelings is, like, such a no-go for me. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. It's not right. Ugh. I'm so sorry that you felt that way. Yeah, I'm okay.

It was just, that was like a glimpse of, like, something probably needs to change. Yeah. And you're like, you know what? I'm not even that into him. So this has been a couple months of my life and it's just time to put it into an end now. Would you guys say that the breakup was mutual? I mean, it wasn't, it was just like when you're not feeling like the relationship's

progressing, like how into it could you be? And I kept trying to see like where we were going to go next. And it eventually was like, well, he's not even going to move to St. Diego or I feel like he was going to any time soon. I never really got a full answer. So yeah, I was like, I think we're just not meeting each other's needs. Like you're not meeting mine. I'm clearly not meeting yours because I've probably needed too much. And, uh, it, uh, it, felt mutual. Yeah. Like we, I mean, I put this on a break after his birthday. So I could just like process my emotions without any distractions while still talking like maybe once a week. And then we saw each other when he came here for San Diego. And he did reflect. Like he did take some time to assess where

he was like probably not showing up like best with his work and like prioritizing appropriately for what I needed. So when he was like, I want to make this work or like, I love you and I miss you, I thought something would change, but it didn't. So, After those two weeks, I gave him a call. And I was like, I think it's best that we just move on with our life. And like, it's okay and like, no bad blood. And he's like, yep, I agree. Like everything's good on my end, blah, blah, blah.

But then I got the hey girlie text after that. So that's when I was like, oh. We got the what girlie? What? Hey, girlie. You know, like when someone's like, hey girlie. So like, I don't know. Have you ever seen that like on Instagram or like.

Yeah, like me, I'm going to say this because I'm going to try to soften the blow that's to come. Yeah, pretty much. Like I picked up with your man kind of thing. Like, hey, girl. Yeah. Okay. So you,

you got this text a couple days after this conversation. No, like the moment I got off the phone with him. No. Yeah, no, it was divine intervention. It was so weird. So tell everybody.

I know what this is, but tell everybody else it doesn't know. Oh, yeah. So I got a text for my girlfriend who gets a text with someone else. That's like, I don't know if like I want this to get to Katz sooner, but I don't know if her and Deller together, but he 100% like,

saw up with someone last night and like I just thought she should know. And I called him back immediately and I said, I just got this text. Like, did you hook up with someone last night? And he's like, no, someone was trying, but like I never actually did.

And I think he was like going into his house or something. So he was like, his hands were full and he was like, I'll call you back. So I was like, okay. Then I reached out to the girl and like it just kept going and like more and more kept coming out.

And I kept trying to give him opportunity because at one point, she was like, there's a picture and stuff like that. And he was like, well, we did hook up, but we didn't, like, fully, like, go all the way, sex. And I was like, well, why didn't you tell me you hooked up the first time? He's like, well, I thought you meant sex. It was just, like, all this, like, run around nonsense. And eventually I spoke to the girl herself and found out all the, like, intricacies of how he was, how he lied.

And he lied to me for about, like, two hours straight about things. So they actually did sleep together? They did end up sleeping together fully. and like he was the one that was pursuing her. He was one that kicked her or she was one that kicked him out of the room. Like that's why he slept in his own bed, stuff like that. And so, and I made it very clear. I was like, I won't be mad if you hook up with someone.

I just like want you to be honest with me. And I don't want to keep finding things out. Like this should have come from you to begin with. Like we never set boundaries, but like we should have, you need to communicate with me like these things. And it honestly felt a lot about like, it felt like the dead of conversation where he's like minimizing it. and then being like, well, it's not happening.

It didn't happen, but like it did. So just so many things I think back now to the relationship where I wonder what was honest or not because his capacity to be dishonest was insane. And that's what made me the most upset. I'm assuming that you thought back on a lot of times where possibly he was hooking up with other girls when it was kind of understood that you were dating. Yeah. Yeah.

There were some like blind things that came out on the internet that. And I just felt like any time, like he, I ever asked him a lot of times, not every time, but like a lot of times that I would bring things up to him. It was always like, let me flip it on you in some way for you to feel like crazy for asking to begin with. But I will say I had the most fun in this breakup because when he was trying to call me back, because after I spoke to the girl, I like would not talk to him. I was like, you will never have this to communicate with me again. So he was calling me back and like I would answer.

and I was just sending him links to like better help therapy. And he was like, you just need to like get your shit together and leave me alone. And then I was like, I didn't tell you we hooked up like, like that from that last call and I'm like, I wrote in chat to BT. I was like,

what does it mean when someone tells you something happened that didn't happen? And there was like a definition of gas lighting. So I sent it. Yeah. And then like the next day when he's trying to get more information about what I know, I told him like the only person you should be calling is your therapy. like I was having fun. I was having fun. Oh my goodness gracious. And then you post it on TikTok to really like make it official that you were like all those guys that were

in my TM for the past like seven months. I'm going to revisit this. No, I don't. I know. I was I'm traumatized. I was traumatized women. But yeah, I just felt like he just, he has a lot of growing to do in my opinion. I mean, we all do, but it felt really like it was very obvious. I feel like he's a character in a rom-com. You know what I mean? Like, he's like the guy in a rom-com that's just like, brings you in with the green eyes and like he's just very obviously like beautiful man. And then just just does this. And then at the end of the day, the girl finds somebody treats her well and we've heard that maybe you're dating somebody. Yeah, I am dating someone.

Yes. It's really new, but very kind to me, very smart, very present, laughs at all my jokes, and like just feels really like easy. Like I've never, I feel like typically I am trying to pull like emotion out of people or they're like somewhat present but not really. He's very present emotionally available. So I'm really excited to see where this can go. But he's probably the nicest.

I've never had someone be so kind to me. Oh my gosh. That's so sweet. I'm so happy for you. It's really sweetly, yeah. So that's been really refreshing. It's still early. So who knows?

He gets still breaking her. How did you guys meet? We met at like a houseworming party. We have a mutual friend. So in the wild. Oh, wow. That's also so rom-comy. Amazing.

I know. I know. Yes. And I was like still dealing with some emotional stuff in the beginning. Like I didn't want to not be present enough. So I was really honest about that. And he loves to tell me how difficult I was, which we have to. Yeah, it's just fun like to see like what you can like what really should feel like.

Like every time I describe their relationship, everyone's like, well, it's supposed to be like. I'm like, do you see my dating history? Okay. I am just like, this is so crazy and new to me that this is what everybody actually gets to experience. Like this is so beautiful. I'm so fun and amazing. And it makes you so excited for the future. And I know that it's coming from a healthier place.

Because before I would feel that it was a prefrontal, like, low was not enough to be saying that stuff. So now I'm like, okay, I still go to therapy every other week. Like, I feel like I know. But I want who he is. So we'll see. In the middle of the night, Saskia awoke in a haze. Her husband, Mike, was on his laptop. What was on his screen would change Saskia's life forever.

I said, I need you to tell me exactly what you're doing. And immediately, the mask came off. You're supposed to be safe. That's your home. That's your husband. So keep this secret for so many years, he's like a seasoned pro. This is a story. about the end of a marriage.

But it's also the story of one woman who was done living in the dark. You're a dangerous person who prays on vulnerable and trusting people. Your creditor might go up and good. Listen to Betrayal Season 5 on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. New Year, new goals, and in this economy, a better money plan is more necessary than ever. I am Matt, and I'm Joel. We are from the How to Money podcast And every week we help you to spend smarter, save more,

and make sense of what's going on out there. If you want 2026 to be the year you finally feel in control of your money, we're here to give you the tools and advice to help you make it happen. Listen to How to Money on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What if mind control is real? If you could control the behavior of anybody around you, what kind of life would you have?

Can you hypnotically persuade someone to buy a car? When you look at your car, you're going to become overwhelmed with such good feelings. Can you hypnotize someone into sleeping with you? I gave her some suggestions to be sexually aroused. Can you get someone to join your cult? NLP was used on me to access my subconscious. NLP, aka neurolinguistic programming, is a blend of hypnosis, linguistics, and psychology. Fans say it's like finally getting a user manual for your brain.

It's about engineering consciousness. Mind games is the story of NLP. It's crazy cast of disciples and the fake doctor who invented it at a new age commune and sold it to guys in suits. He stood trial for murder and got acquitted. The biggest mind game of all, NLP might actually work. This is wild. Listen to Mind Games on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey there, this is Dr. Jesse Mills, director of the men's clinic,

UCLA Health and host of the Mailroom podcast. Each January guys everywhere make the same resolutions, get stronger, work harder, fix, what's broken? But what if the real work isn't physical at all? To kick off the new year, I sat down with Dr. Steve Polter, a psychologist with over 30 years' experience helping men unpack shame, anxiety, and emotional pain they were never taught to name. In a powerful two-part conversation, we discuss why men aren't emotionally bulletproof, why shame hides in plain sight, and how real strength comes from listening to yourself and to others. Guys who are toxic, they're immature, or they've got something they just haven't resolved.

Once that gets resolved, then there comes empathy as in compassion. If you want this to be the year, you stop powering through pain and start understanding what's underneath, listen to the mailroom on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows. Your ex, John, seemed very sweet, though. He seemed like he treated you well. He did. Actually, like, probably the most, like, he's still my friend.

Like, we still talk. Yeah. What emotionally, like emotional availability, we laughed. We were disconnected in that space. So he was, like, really sweet to me and, like, never felt like any of those, like, toxic things at all in that relationship. But I would say the emotional capacity, we were, like, at two different parts. If that makes sense. Yeah.

Yeah. I'm sorry. I forgot to ask this question when you said it. but Dale did say that he said, I love you. Did you guys exchange I love you's? Yeah. I mean, he said that like pretty early on too. I didn't say it for a while.

And I don't think I ever like fully said it back. Like I wasn't like I'm so with you. And I don't think he really meant it that way either. Yeah. It was more like as a person. I love you. Yeah. I feel like we cared a lot about each other.

You know, when you, you develop this like. bond in those settings of paradise and like bachelor world. So I feel like there's like you can confuse like care and with love in a way. But I was very like every time everyone asked me if I he was the one, I was like, I don't know. And like I've never said. I usually am like, yeah, 100% is my answer. But there's nothing that I could really, like I was truly just like seeing where it went. And when it didn't go to that direction, I was like, well,

then I don't want to do it anymore. So, yeah, I don't know. It takes time. But I don't have to be God blood. I just want like my story to be told of the situation. I don't think he was like intentionally trying to hurt anybody. I just think people that have not connected enough with themselves, accidentally hurt other people.

And I think it's time that we like recognize that. I think you're coming across very maturely. I think you're coming across also kind. don't know why there be really honestly a cease and desist about this. You're not painting him to be this evil villain. You're literally like, I think some therapy could help this man deal with relationships better. So, I mean, if the worst thing you have to say is that like he took you to an awful influencer event and then, but then the comment he made was pretty crappy. And I completely agree that the man has showed a lot of flaws publicly in the way he navigates relationships. But like,

I don't think you're slandering him. No, I just don't think he wanted his, I just think he really cares what people think and he takes it too far sometimes because we all care. But like you don't have, that is not necessary. And I think he also has a little bit of trauma maybe from his previous relationship and publicly with that. But like, do better. Like just be a better person.

Like don't like take the time to be a present partner and you wouldn't have to worry about that or own your mistakes. Like it's not that heart. It's really not the heart. Like to just own like moments of flawed character. Definitely. Yeah. So I like that.

It would be good for his public image. I mean, but I don't think he's like, I don't, I don't think he knows himself. Like that's my opinion. I feel like he really lacked that connection with himself. So it's really hard to be like present and connecting with another person when you,

like don't even know yourself. Yeah. Talking about connecting with another person. Do you think he's connecting with Kelly Flan again? No, I think that's like straight for cloud, fully. I mean, he's best friends with Peter. So I don't know why that would be like a thing. But I do know that he definitely like does social stuff with people that will give him engagement.

I also think the timing of all of it like is careless with everything else that's going on in the world. Like people don't need to see you trying to be a bad actor on social media. Like you need to be using your platform for good right now. but that's just my opinion. So, I just, yeah, I'm wondering how Peter feels

about all this now. They probably all love it because his name is being said too. Like, I feel like they all just love the attention. It's really interesting. I don't want that attention at all. Like,

that's like, I don't know. It's just weird. And also me and him have very different content styles. Like, you will never see me like do like fake stuff on social media. He likes,

acty stuff, which is I can't fault him for any of it. We do lots of cheesy shit on Instagram. Yeah, but you probably like normal. I keep saying he's a millennial in a boomer's body. Like it's he's a boomer in a millennial's body. Like it's so interesting. Like I don't get it. I don't think that's like really good because it looks fake in my opinion. Like if you're good at it, like Katz Decler she like I think she's good at it I haven't seen her very good yeah yeah like if you're good at it hell yeah yeah but like if you're it's entertaining but it's not entertaining to me or maybe because I know so disingenuous that it pisses me off and I'm just like being normal yeah it's probably because you know them too well when you know people and then you watch their social media and it doesn't match to

who they are in real life that's when you're like oh this is make I can't look at social media because now I'm going to feel totally different way when I see him in real life. So I feel like if I ever saw a man dance with his shirt on and his pants off, like in putting his shirt on first, like on with a tripod setup, I would always like be grossed out. But you dated the guy who does that. That's why I have to look at their socials before you date them in paradise.

He did not do that when we dated. I would have made him take it down. I would have made him take down. Like insane. And I know that's why I said I will never date a man that owns a tripod again. Because like, you literally need to not know how to use a phone. Like, you know how to use your camera to take pictures of me. You know how to use the lighting and the angles.

That's how you know how to operate. But like, imagine a man literally like setting up a tripod, putting up a ringlay and like doing a skincare routine. Like that's for the girls. Like that is not allowed. And I, it's so bad. I hated it. I hated it.

I tell Jared to like, you know, do more social stuff because obviously for business. But you're right. is far more attractive if they don't, but I guess when you're already married to him. But yeah, he's not, he's also doing like movie reviews. He's not like trying to do skincare. Like if you're talking about like that matters, like sure. But also he was so not present with me in real life. Like I think I mentioned the Projury's game where we literally didn't talk and he did it for social like it seemed like. And he wasn't, we were doing these things together and it wasn't even fun. So it's not very fun to like then you're acting also like fun and like,

normal in real life, but like you didn't even have a conversation with me. I literally was making up questions about baseball that I already knew answers to just so we can have like some type of conversation. Like what is the like, like what is how many innings are in it? Like I know how many innings are in it. But like, I don't know. Guys like to like teach you stuff. Yeah.

So let me give me like some. No. Don't dumb yourself down for a man. No, but like it's sports. Like I don't really care. I know. But it was just like, but that's how desperate I was to just get some type of connection. this brings up a point that our producer made before you got on here she said that when we were doing the interview when ben was there doing the interview for the finale that people on our iHeart team saw you guys fighting over doing tictox there was like bickering over tic talks which i can relate it isn't easy to do as a couple i think he wanted me to do this that weird tic talk which one i don't know where he's like dancing

or something. I hated it. And you were just like, ew, no things. Don't dance. He wasn't even like, it was just felt like he really like needed to get this TikTok out. But like, before that, he was barely talking to any, like, it just felt, I don't know. I don't like, I don't like, I don't like, I don't like, I don't want to do this weird dance. Like, what are you talking about? So it's needless to say, your new boyfriend or guy you're dating. Yeah. Doesn't own a tripod. He does not own a tripod. But he actually is really good at. taking like scenic photos and stuff. I was like, wow, that looks so good.

He like knows the angles with that. So that was really cool. He's a very lucky man. He's a beautiful, lovely lady. And as I like said in the beginning, a woman who was born to be a reality star. Yeah. You really, really were. You have the best, funniest takes.

You're so honest. You're so funny. Oh, thank you. Intentionally and non-intentionally. I've always been. a fan. It's really sweet. I mean, it's, if you're just yourself, it's so much easier to be on camera, I feel like. It's like when people try to overthink it. But yeah, it's been, it's been interesting being in this space. Hopefully no more dating shows, but I'm happy to go be a person on in else in another,

in another space. All right. Well, do you think Dale's going to listen to this? I don't know. Maybe. Probably. Probably. Hey, Dale. Hey, hey. If you've been at this far. I'm going to be the alerts for his name coming up. Oh, my gosh. All right, Kat. Thanks for joining us. Until next time, I've been Ashley. Bye.

Follow the Ben and Ashley I, almost famous podcast on IHartRadio or subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. In the middle of the night, Saskia awoke in a haze. Her husband, Mike, was on his laptop. What was on his screen would change Saskia's life forever. I said, I need you to talk. Tell me exactly what you're doing. And immediately, the mask came off. You're supposed to be safe.

That's your home. That's your husband. Listen to Betrayal Season 5 on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, it's Joel and Matt from How to Money. If your New Year's resolution is to finally get your finances in shape, we've got your back. Prices that are still high and the economy is all over the place. But 2026 is the year for you to get intentional and make real progress. That's right.

Yeah, each week we break down what's happening with your money, the most important issues to focus on, and the small moves that make a big difference. Kick off the year with confidence. Listen to How to Money on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What if mind control is real? If you could control the behavior of anybody around you,

what kind of life would you have? Can you hypnotically persuade someone to buy a car? When you look at your car, going to become overwhelmed with such good feelings. Can you hypnotize someone into sleeping with you? I gave her some suggestions to be sexually aroused. Can you get someone to join your cult? NLP was used on me to access my subconscious.

Mind Games, a new podcast exploring NLP, aka Neurilingualistic Programming. Is it a self-help miracle, a shady hypnosis scam, or both? Listen to Mind Games on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You know, we always say New Year, New Me, but real change starts on the inside. It starts with giving your mind and your spirit the same attention you give your goals. Hey, everybody, it's Michelle Williams, host of checking in on the Black Effect Podcast Network. And on my podcast, we talk mental health, healing, growth, and everything you need to step into your next season, whole and empowered. New Year, Real You.

Listen to Checking in with Michelle Williams from the, Black Effect Podcast Network on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.