The Ben and Ashley I Almost Famous Podcast - Villainous Behavior

Episode Date: March 9, 2022

It’s time for Fantasy Suites… and a very difficult episode to watch from Clayton’s season. Sierra Jackson is here to share her perspective on what went on behind the scenes with the other girls, and who they expected when they signed up to be on the show. Ben and Ashley break down the situation with Susie and why Clayton handled things poorly. Plus, Sierra shares Clayton’s “red flags”! Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. My boyfriend's professor is way too friendly, and now I'm seriously suspicious. Wait a minute, Sam. Maybe her boyfriend's just looking for extra credit. Well, Dakota, luckily, it's back to school week on the OK Storytime podcast, so we'll find out soon. This person writes, my boyfriend's been hanging out with his young professor a lot. He doesn't think it's a problem, but I don't trust her. Now he's insisting we get to know each other, but I just want her gone.

Hold up. Isn't that against school policy? That seems inappropriate. Maybe find out how it ends by listening to the OK Storytime podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, my name is Enya Umanzor. And I'm Drew Phillips. And we run a podcast called Emergency Intercom. If you're a crime junkie and you love crimes, we're not the podcast for you. But if you have unmedicated ADHD... Oh, my God, perfect.

And want to hear people with mental illness, psychobabble. Yes, yes. Then Emergency Intercom is the podcast for you. Open your free IHeartRadio app. Search Emergency Intercom and listen now. Everyone thinks they'd never join a cult. But it happens all the time to people just like you. And people just like us.

I'm Lola Blanc and I'm Megan Elizabeth. We're the hosts of Trust Me, a podcast about cults, manipulation, and the psychology of belief. Each week we talk to fellow survivors, former believers, and experts to understand why people get pulled in and how they get out. Trust me. New episodes every Wednesday on exactly right. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

The Super Secret Bestie Club podcast season four is here. And we're locked in. That means more juicy chisement. Terrible love advice. Evil spells to cast on your ex. No, no, no, no. We're not doing that this season. Oh.

Well, this season, we're leveling up. Each episode will feature a special Bestie, and you're not going to want to miss it. My name is Curley. And I'm Maya. Get in here. Listen to the Super Secret Festi Club on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. What would you do if one bad decision forced you to choose between a maximum security prison

or the most brutal boot camp designed to be hell on earth? Unfortunately for Mark Lombardo, this was the choice he faced. He said, you are a number, a New York State number, and we own you. Listen to shock incarceration on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is the Ben and Ashley I, Almost Famous Podcasts with IHartRadio. It is the Almost Famous Podcast. Yes, we are here. We have a lot to talk about.

And I would not want to talk about it with anyone other than my wonderful co-host. Ashley, I can. Kennedy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Ben and I couldn't even hold on three hours to talk about this episode. I had to call him while I was at the tail end of watching. And it was funny because after I hung up with you, my sister and my friend were like, who else can we call that has the screener so that we can talk to them too? Because it was so outrageous. Yeah. Well, here's, and here's the format of today's episode. This, the reason Ashley called me and the reason that we decided to talk about it before

we even came on the podcast today, because it was a hard episode to watch, especially the last third of this episode, we know that a lot of you have very strong opinions in it's, I mean, obviously, very fair. As with Dewey. It was, it was hard. It was hard for me to. get to, and just to get started, I had to admit to Ashley, I said, you know, I watch this and I'm not always great at, you know, we've done it over and over again where somebody's had

to correct us or, you know, fans don't see it the same way we do. I was like, I'm not always good with the things that upset me and make me feel really like, like confused. Isn't always how everybody else feels. I have to understand that going in today's episode. Not, not everybody's going to have as the same reaction I do. But when I watch it, this. I was like, there's no way, like, there's just no way I can't say that this was awful to watch. It was not okay. Well, in my opinion, I don't think that there's any other way of seeing this episode other than Clayton's reaction towards Susie is truly disturbing. I think it shows the side of him that we haven't seen before. And that in seeing it makes me so glad that Susie

and possibly none of these girls end up with him. That's a strong statement, Ashley. Do you stand by that? Yeah, right now I do. Okay. Maybe, I don't know. I mean, I think it was like kind of a scary side. The term gaslighting is just so new that sometimes it sounds like kind of like taboo to say.

And it doesn't feel like it carries the weight of the situation, honestly. Like you say just the term and people are like, okay, yeah, that term gets something around. but like today I hope you and I can actually talk through what happened during this conversation that we would reference as gaslighting but was like actually put some like words to this discussion because it was it was hard throughout right the whole if you put an umbrella over this conversation say oh it was gaslighting yeah okay but what actually was it inside of this that was so upsetting for us to see and probably for susy to experience the way that he tried to turn the tables on her and make her seem like she was in the wrong and she was crazy and that like the ending of

their relationship was all on her that she made this massive mistake it was villainous behavior on his part that I feel like we've almost never seen before especially from a lead yeah especially for a lead because when you think of like villainous leads like people think about Juan Pablo and put in comparison between Clayton's behavior with Susie and Juan Pablo with Andy saying like it's okay it's okay and like dismissing her feelings like that and that was so light in comparison and then like with Claire what he says with Claire is absolutely not okay but in comparison like it this is just crazy yeah it's tough well and yeah it is hard so there's gonna have to be some there's just a big conversation to be had today and obviously we have a big

episode we have one of the fan favorites sierra jackson on the podcast as well today um she uh obviously participated in woman tell all uh she was outspoken at woman till all we're going to get her thoughts on this episode in the situation we should mention that she was somebody who had a poignant uh something to say yeah at the end of the episode because she was like i know how i don't know what the actual wording was but she was like i know how horrible basically you were At the end, it makes sense now when she said that, why yesterday, like, he looks scared. Yeah. And she was so unapologetic saying that. And I was like, whoa, that was bold. And now I'm like, oh, that was so appropriate. Well, Ashley, today's a big episode. It's one of those that I didn't

think we were going to have on this season. I thought we were going to go through a whole season and talk about the show and the drama on the show and who doesn't like who and who likes who. But today feels like one of those episodes and one of these moments on this podcast, that a really important conversation needs to happen. Obviously, we have, we not only have to have it. We get to have it because we have a podcast about this show. And we'll do it right here. But before we do, let's take a little break. We'll come back with the almost famous podcast and also have Sierra Jackson. My boyfriend's professor is way too friendly, and now I'm seriously suspicious.

Well, wait a minute, Sam. Maybe her boyfriend's just looking for extra credit. Well, Dakota, it's back to school week on the OK Storytime podcast, so we'll find out soon. This person writes, my boyfriend has been hanging out with his young professor a lot. He doesn't think it's a problem, but I don't trust her. Now, he's insisting we get to know each other, but I just want her gone. Now, hold up. Isn't that against school policy?

That sounds totally inappropriate. Well, according to this person, this is her boyfriend's former professor, and they're the same age. it's even more likely that they're cheating. He insists there's nothing between them. I mean, do you believe him? Well, he's certainly trying to get this person to believe him because he now wants them both to meet. So, do we find out if this person's boyfriend

really cheated with his professor or not? To hear the explosive finale, listen to the OK Storytime podcast on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hi, my name is Enya Yumanzoor. And I'm Drew Phillips. And we run a podcast called Emergency Intercom.

If you're a crime junkie and you love crimes, we're not the podcast for you. But if you have unmedicated ADHD... Oh my God, perfect. And want to hear people with mental illness, psychobabble. Yes, yes. Then Emergency Intercom's the podcast for you.

Open your free IHeartRadio app. Search Emergency Intercom and listen now. Everyone thinks they'd never join a cult. But it happens all the time to people just like you. And people just like us. I'm Lola Blanc and I'm Megan Elizabeth. We're the hosts of Trust Me, a podcast about cults, manipulation, and the psychology of belief. Each week we talk to fellow survivors, former believers, and experts to understand why people get pulled in and how they get out.

Trust me, new episodes every Wednesday on exactly right. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. A foot washed up a shoe with some bones in it. They had no idea who it was. Most everything was burned up pretty good from the fire that not a whole lot was. salvageable. These are the coldest of cold cases, but everything is about to change. Every case that is a cold case that has DNA right now in a backlog will be identified in our lifetime. A small lab in Texas is cracking the code on DNA. Using new scientific tools,

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or wherever you get your podcasts. The Super Secret Festi Club podcast Season 4 is here. And we're locked in. That means more juicy chees-me. love advice. Evil spells to cast on your ex. No, no, no, no, no, we're not doing that this season. Oh, well, this season, we're leveling up.

Each episode will feature a special bestie, and you're not going to want to miss it. Get in here! Today, we have a very special guest with us. Our new super secret bestie is the diva of the people. The diva of the people. I'm just like, text your ex. My theory is that if you need to figure out that the stove is hot, go and touch it. Go and figure it out for yourself.

Okay. That's us. That's us. My name is Curley. And I'm Maya. In each episode, we'll talk about love, friendship, heartbrates, men, and, of course, our favorite secrets. Listen to the Super Secret Bestie Club as a part of the My Cultura podcast network available on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. manipulation at its core is when you try to convince somebody to change their mind for your benefit

right he was definitely doing that it was definitely Clayton attempting to change Susie's mind and make her feel crazy for his benefit which at any let's be very clear whenever you try to do that to another human and you invalidate how they're feeling thinking and emotionally expressing themselves and you try to change them so that you benefit from it, that's wrong. We're not just talking about The Bachelor here. We're talking about any situation where you try to convince somebody that your opinion's right because they're wrong and they're crazy.

This is not having a mature argument at this point. There is obvious he felt like he had to defend himself and instead of validating her feelings saying, you know what, I hear you and it's wrong, but I love you. Now, love, as we've learned before, is not a thing to convince Susie then that she needs to keep with him, but like, I'm so defensive here because of my feelings for you. And I know I was wrong. And I have no way to explain it. Instead of him validating her feelings, he invalidated her feelings and made her feel crazy. And that's where we have to say, no, it's not okay. This is, you know, this is the most. I mean, I can't even think about the rest of the episode, given what we see here. Yeah. But let's give it a little context to it. I mean, everybody listening to this has probably seen the episode, but the gist of it is that Susie is upset that he slept with the other two girls. She tells him now during her fantasy suite date that she would not be cool with him sleeping with the other women and then choosing her. And it goes beyond that because not only did he admit to sleeping with the other women, at first he kept saying somebody, someone, as if it was singular until he finally kind of admit.

it was both of them. He also says that he was, he also, like, confessed that he told both of them that there was love. Like, he dropped the L word with the both of them. And she's basically like, well, I can't possibly, I, maybe I should have told you earlier, but I'm not cool with you saying those things or being intimate in that way with these other people when I'm in the picture still and yeah maybe should I have said that sure um but I didn't want to give you an ultimatum and I kind of respect that I'm kind of you know yesterday I was saying like maybe she should have told him earlier if that's how she she felt but at the same time now I'm thinking about in a different way I like the fact that she didn't give him an ultimatum that she didn't even mention that because

if it truly was her and he knew it was truly her in which he supposedly claims now he's like yep I love you most that's what he says I love you most that's what he says I love you the most. Which, let me pause there is what I was saying earlier, because you and I both learn through this podcast. You know, I've made statements about love and how, and people have correct me and said, hey, like, people use the word love to get their way, right? They manipulate people through saying, I love you, I love you.

This is all out of love. Those things. It's wrong, right? We've learned that on this podcast. And so when I'm watching this and he's saying, I've loved you most, it's, But yeah, he's already made up his mind that he's over the relationship. It's almost to me, like, reminding me of that conversation we had last year. It's like, no, he's using this to try to convince her that he's in the right.

And that's wrong. Like this, you know, from the year of doing this now, I'm learning like when I'm seeing right in front of my eyes, he's using heavy words, big words, like love and care and all this stuff to try to make her feel bad. Yeah. And it's like, Clayton, do you love her most? because she's telling you this and she's pulling away and you know you're about to lose her or are you saying that or did you really know that you loved her the most going into this week because in either situation you're kind of you're just it's a lose lose for him he's basically admitting to her in some way that like yeah i slept with the other girls for fun but i knew it was you which just really makes it worse yeah so and obviously we're going to go through the other two dates um you know and we're going to break this down but to end this thought here before we get into it a lot more in just a few minutes um i do think there

was a way to have this conversation i actually think there was a really good way that susy and clayton could have sat down and that susy could have expressed that she was hurt susy could have expressed that she didn't love the the things that were done and that she didn't like that he had slept with other people if he knew she was the one and that he could have responded in a way that admitted you know what he had done he doesn't even need to admit fault i don't think i don't think his issue is in sleeping with the other women i don't think no not at all i'm not saying maybe it was the wise decision i'm not even saying it was a good decision if he knew susy the one but i don't but none of this none of being upset with clayton right now is about him sleeping with other women

it's about how he handled the hot conversation after Susie asked him is how... Thank you for clarifying that then. Where all this goes down. Yes. We cannot get mad at him for sleeping with other women if he was never asked to be held to that standard by Susie, okay? But it also doesn't mean that Susie still can't say, I'm hurt by how this happened.

I don't feel good about the decision you made. And where it took a nasty turn. A nasty turn here. Where all of our conversation probably for the rest of the podcast after we get, through the first two dates, so he's going to go. Is not in his decision to sleep with two women. It's how he handled the conversation and how he made Susie feel.

Well, Ashley, we do have a special guest coming on. Sierra Jackson is here to join us. We're going to get her thoughts and everything and also her thoughts on the woman tell all that we obviously talked about yesterday on the podcast and thought it was uh, unenjoyable to watch.

Here is Sierra Jackson. Okay, Sierra will be honest with the audience. We get the screeners. you haven't seen the episode, the Fantasy Suite episode, as of the time of this taping. But you did make a comment during Women Tell All that just made us go,

whoa. That's when you kind of said, you know, Clayton, you mess up. You mess up real bad. We can't, of course, disclose anything that happens at the end, but do you know, like, how he messed up with Susie? Like, have you spoken to Susie?

I have but I like obviously can't say any like details of our conversation right and I'm not going to share any details of our conversation but I have I have gotten to chat with her since everything happened and I just know that I just know that she was hurt that's all I know that she was really her and and that hurts me because she's you know one of my good friends and I think that's a like obviously you know as Ashley just mentioned We're recording this at 1.30 Mountain Time on Tuesday. The episode won't air until tonight. We've seen it.

You haven't. So everybody that's watched this episode now that will be listening to this podcast understands completely what you're saying. I mean, Susie was hurt. And in a way, you know, in a way, I just wonder once she left the show, like, did she have a support system around her to let her know that she's not crazy? Were you, could you answer? Were you there to be like, hey?

I did. I reached out to her. So I actually, I hadn't heard out. I haven't been able to hear for her, you know, from a little bit. Because obviously they're all going to take their time, you know, when they come home to kind of readjusting it back to everything. And then so I kind of reached out a few times though. And then finally she responded back and she was like, you know, I'm ready to talk. You know, so.

But whenever she did respond back, you know, we did get to chat and connect. And I just let her know, like, you know, that. If she ever wants to talk more and express more and if she never feeling down or just needs somebody to just be there, like she, you know, I said it up me or, you know, Marlene or any of us girls will all listen. So she has a great support system, I think so, too, with her family. And then I'm not going to lie, like, you know, the Bachelor, you know, ABC provides a really great support system, too, for everything as well. So I think that helps a lot, too, with being able to, like, you know, link up with, you know, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the. The. psychologist they provide and everything too after the fact so um i think i think yeah she's she's good as golden okay i know it but between your comment um and a couple of the other girls comments about like how the ending unfolds what's your general consensus as like a group of women towards clayton right now so uh we think that the um the overall outlook that we all have and And I can speak, and I'm going to say this because I've heard it from all of the girls.

You know, some of the girls are very, very nice when they're right in front of him and sugarcoat a lot of things when they're right in front of them or when they're on camera. And then whenever they're off camera or are not right in front of them, they speak their minds. Who knows? Maybe they're, I don't know what's real and what's not, but from what I'm hearing and what we've all talked about, you know, a lot of the women are they were disappointed with Clayton overall and a lot of us went into this expecting a different bachelor from the very beginning and so there's that right there you mean a different actual human a different human not a different personality from him a different

human yeah a different human and and so then you know right before you know we leave you know and and go to filming and everything you know we find to find out who it is and um for me at that point I'm just like okay well I've done bought 15 dresses so it's happening you know it's happening I'm gonna cross my fingers it's gonna be a blind date we're gonna make the best of it like he's not ugly so you know like if this personality is there then it could turn into something you know no wait did you even see him did you know what his face looked like yeah yeah you did that's it we got like that one picture he's like in a purple shirt you know that one you got the ABC picture of him that's it

Yeah. Who did you think it was? It was just some guy. We just knew it was this guy. No, no, no. But who did you think The Bachelor was going to be? We also, we thought it was going to be Andrew Spencer, Mike A, or Greg. And 90% of the girls wanted it to be Greg.

And so I feel like, I don't know, I feel like they might have casted for Greg, which is why a lot of us were still kind of spicy and, like, opinionated and very, strong women because honestly I feel like Greg could handle a woman like that but so that's what I think is kind of what what was cast before and then and then things kind of change or whatever I don't know though I don't know I have no idea but not just my like my thought process of it but yeah I mean a lot of people don't understand you know they think there's a lot of prep and that you know who this person is I mean, I found out who my bachelorets were going to be. The night before I showed up to the mansion, I was watching it live on television with

everybody else, and they were doing some live show, and they announced two bachelorets at that point. And you just, you kind of, I mean, I like what you just said. It's kind of like a blind date. You're like, okay, these people are ugly. They obviously have been on television before us, and they've lasted a while with the other person, so I'm assuming they're likable. Let's go give this a shot.

Like, let's see if this works. So, let's, you know, some concept or context there. But at least I had the ability and Ashley had the ability to watch our leads previously on another season. You just got an ABC picture, which is never flattering. Yeah. And you don't really know. I mean, for me personally, and I'm not like fashion clean or anything, but had I watched

Michelle season and got to watch, like, I would have just passed up on it because I would have already known that it wouldn't work out between him and I, like personality-wise. So that's the one thing that you do kind of do mess out on by not getting to see is that like you could have just weeded it out by personality. And I'm sure if you were to watch me on something, you would be like, yeah, that is not my cup of tea. I do not like that girl. It would have been vice versa. And so then you just get that on time.

But, yeah. Well, Sierra, that begs the question. How could you guys be annoyed at people like Claire, like Cheney? like anyone that you thought was there for the wrong reasons when you guys sort of felt the same way or like you weren't like even wanting to be with him so for Claire I wasn't really annoyed with Claire

I'll say that like I can't see on anybody else I was just that was night one that was my first impression ever and it wasn't that Claire was like you know bashing clay or whatever like that I was more concerned because it seemed like she was like, you know, intoxicated. And so that's why I was like, ooh, she's being messy. She's

kind of being unhinged because night one, you drink a lot and then you're being messy. And it's not because you're messy, it's because you're drunk, you know? And so that's why I was like, ooh, yikes. And because if that's night one, you're just going to be, you have access to it. So pace yourself, you know? So that was more my thing with Claire. As for Cassidy, I didn't have an issue with, like, or not Cassidy. With the whole sidepiece thing, lying to Clayton's face, that was, I just, I don't like liars. Like, I can't stand a liar.

That's my biggest pet pee. That's my tick. That's the one thing that'll, like, immediately get me really angry, um, is like, when people lie to me. And so that was my frustration with Kathy and that was my frustration with Sheney as well, is because Shine was being hypocritical and she was lying. And that's why we didn't like her. It wasn't, she could have.

she could probably know she could have been, well, I mean, she was there for a long of reason. She was there for cloud. She was, and she won. I mean, I'll give it to her 100,000 percent. Whatever she came for, she got it. She won. She did her thing. Like, congratulations to her. I can give her kudos. And, like, I'm not going to hang on the girl. I think she's absolutely beautiful. I think she's stunning. I think she could freaking go a really long way with all the exposure she's gotten. But I do think her personality is nasty and gross. And so she, that's what I'm annoyed about. And that's the issue that I have with her is that she was deliberately just mean and nasty to people. She could have went after that man without doing all that. So that's what, I mean, everybody else didn't. So I don't see why she couldn't have. I don't know. I have to disagree with you, Sierra. I don't think Chenet won.

I don't know what you're referencing when you say she won because I don't think this plays out well for her. Like I don't think there's, I mean, you know, I've been in this world now for many years, right? It comes and goes fast. It's an amazing story to tell your friends and your family. And it's awesome when you run into somebody that is like, hey, I was a fan of the show and it's great. Like, that's all really good. And it's been good for me personally. It's opened up new opportunities.

However, it comes and goes fast, even when you're, you know, the show was good to you or you were good to the show. So when you say she's won, what do you mean by that? What I mean by that is, because, you know, obviously it's subjective of what people all consider winning. But for me, she went on to the show to get exposure, whether it was positive or negative. Because obviously, if it were to be positive, she wouldn't have said the thing she said. Right. So she went for exposure. That was her main purpose.

That was her goal. That's what she wanted. It doesn't matter what kind of exposure it was, but that's what in her mind she wanted. that's what would make it worth it. And so, like, you know, when there's somebody like, like I went on there to hopefully fall in love, find love, fall in love, walk away of the man. Like, it's over here. It's dry in Dallas. Okay. So like that is what I went out there for. Oh, my gosh, a baby's so cute. Oh my gosh. But okay. So that's what I went out there for, right? That was my motive. I did not leave with that. So I lost. I did. Like I came back with friends,

though. I love the friends that I have. But my motive was that. I didn't leave with that. So I lost. And I could care less about the cloud. I could care less about screen time. I could care less about cloud. I could care less about anything else. I could care less. I have a great job, a great apartment. I love my life.

Like, I'm living me. So I could give less shit. But she went on for a reason, and that reason she got it. She didn't care about getting the man. She wanted Clout, and she wanted exposure, and she got it. So she won and what she came for. And so, I mean, she played her cards right for her and what she wants. Okay.

And so that's what I mean, you know? Can't disagree with that. Can I put a little devil's advocate right here. Yeah. If you and some of the other girls were saying that you weren't really into him, then why stick around if it weren't for followers, clout, and all that? So me, I'm thinking, okay, you know what? What if he is really a good guy?

What if these red flags are just, I'm jumping the conclusions? Like, you know, Sierra just like wait it out. Give it more time. By the time I got to Houston, I kid you not. I had I lost my shit the night of the cocktail party when I'm in a green dress I lost my entirely lost it and obviously it is a show but like I mean I lost my shit so much they gave this McDonald's afterwards there you go which you should know you should know that's a luxury that's big yeah it is that was like our target run literally so I I was so upset and I was like

I'm done with this. I'm done anything upon. I'm done. I know I'm here for entertainment. I'm a quota. I want to get the fuck out and send me home. Like, this is not my person. It's not for me.

It's not going to happen. I've tried. I've been optimistic. I've been, you know, positive and it's not it. So just let me go back to my life. And finally,

that happened. So, but me, like, yeah, to answer your question, I was ready to kick rocks and go. And it's,

and I mean, I would have to say too. that's not all bad right because like it's fair for the show to say that to you because it's it obviously moves so fast there's so much going on i remember when i was the lead there was women there that the same comment was made to me hey you don't send them home maybe yet like there's more to get to know about them and if i said no i'm very for sure this is not the one for me they just said okay go ahead like it's fine but there was always that there's more to get to know and at some level you know if anything it you to be around and make more friends, but I think the idea of, hey, there's still more to get

to discover. The show doesn't really know if Clayton's going to come out of his shell. The show doesn't know if he's going to blossom. It could be that they're like, we see this guy behind the scenes when there's no cameras and he's like the most amazing guy. And then he gets on camera and like, we see what you're saying? Sierra, he shuts down. And so we're hoping in two weeks Clayton thrives and shines and you fall for him. So I don't even have a problem with them telling to stick around. I don't have a problem with that. Yeah. And I mean, I didn't either because the thing is like, that was the only thing is like the version that everyone sees on camera, that's the version we were given. We weren't given this Instagram version of Clayton. We were given this

Snapchat version or Twitter version of personality. We weren't given any of that. We were given exactly what you guys see, which is, is not enough to want to marry someone. And so, you know, that's it. So, you know, me, I'm wanting more. And I mean, I know, I know me and I know what I need to fall in love with and what I need to have like a lasting relationship and I'm needing a lot more. And so I'm just being optimistic. I'm like, you know, I have nothing to lose. I'm already here. If they're telling me to wait, then yeah, of course. They want me to make sure like absolutely that whatever it doesn't work, it's because it didn't work, not because I gave up or didn't give it time or whatever. So I get 100% while they're telling

me to just like see what happens. And so I did. But like, you know, like I, I, said before like you know the longer i stayed the more the more red flags i saw it didn't it didn't really clear up anything it just kind of got worse and then for me yeah my boyfriend's professor is way too friendly and now i'm seriously suspicious oh wait a minute sam maybe her boyfriend's just looking for extra credit well dakota it's back to school week on the okay story time podcast so we'll find out soon this person writes my boyfriend has been hanging out with young professor a lot. He doesn't think it's a problem, but I don't trust her. Now he's insisting we get to know each other, but I just want her gone. Now hold up, isn't that

against school policy? That sounds totally inappropriate. Well, according to this person, this is her boyfriend's former professor and they're the same age. And it's even more likely that they're cheating. He insists there's nothing between them. I mean, do you believe him? Well, he's certainly trying to get this person to believe him because he now wants them both to meet. So, do we find out if this person's boyfriend really cheated with his professor or not. To hear the explosive finale, listen to the OK Storytime podcast on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hi, my name is Enya Humanzor. And I'm Drew Phillips. And we run a podcast called Emergency

Intercom. If you're a crime junkie and you love crimes, we're not the podcast for you. But if you have unmedicated ADHD... Oh my God, perfect. And want to hear people with mental illness, psychobabble. Yes, yes. Then Emergency Intercom is the podcast for you. Open your free IHeartRadio app. Search Emergency Intercom and listen now. Hola, it's HoneyGerman. And my podcast, Grasasas Come Again, is back.

This season, we're going even deeper into the world of music and entertainment with raw and honest conversations with some of your favorite Latin artists and celebrities. You didn't have to audition? No, I didn't audition. I haven't audition in like over 25 years. Oh, wow. That's a real G-talk right there. Oh, yeah.

We've got some of the biggest actors, musicians, content creators and culture shifters sharing their real stories of failure and success. You were destined to be a start. We talk all about what's viral and trending with a little bit of chisement, a lot of laughs and those amazing vivas you've come to expect.

And of course, we'll explore deeper topics dealing with identity, struggles, and all the issues affecting our Latin community. You feel like you get a little whitewash because you have to do the code switching? I won't say whitewash because at this in the day, you know, I'm me. Yeah.

But the whole pretending and cold, you know, it takes a toll on you. Listen to the new season of Grasas Has Come Again as part of my Cultura podcast network on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, sis, what if I could promise you you never had to listen to a condescending finance bro? Tell you how to manage your money again. Welcome to Brown ambition. This is the hard part when you pay down those credit cards.

If you haven't gotten to the bottom of why you were racking up credit or turning to credit cards, you may just recreate the same problem a year from now. When you do feel like you are bleeding from these high interest rates, I would start shopping for a debt consolidation loan, starting with your local credit union, shopping around online, looking for some online lenders because they tend to have fewer fees and be more affordable. Listen, I am not here to judge. It is so expensive in these streets. I 100% can see how in just a few months you can have this much credit card debt when it weighs on you. It's really easy to just like stick your head in the sand. It's nice and dark in the sand.

Even if it's scary, it's not going to go away just because you're avoiding it. And in fact, it may get even worse. For more judgment-free money advice, listen to Brown Ambition on the IHeart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Everyone thinks they'd never join a cult. But it happens all the time to people just like

you. And people just like us. I'm Lola Blanc. Blanc. And I'm Megan Elizabeth. We're the hosts of Trust Me, a podcast about cults, manipulation, and the psychology of belief. week, we talk to fellow survivors, former believers, and experts to understand why people get pulled in and how they get out. Trust me, new episodes every Wednesday on exactly right. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

What were those red flags that you guys were seeing? Gosh. Oh, okay. So I didn't know it was a laundry list, but I mean, I'll sit back from there. That was a big, very entertaining interview. That was a big breaths here. It's like, oh my gosh. All right. Go ahead. Oh, yeah.

Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay. So it starts off, big and threat flag. Okay, it starts up with a big one. We obviously have the children's group date, right? Hillary Duff from the beginning, okay? The main purpose of this day is to see how well we work with children because he wants children someday. He is passionate about kids, okay?

He, but yet he, gives a group date rose to a woman that did nothing with the kids, never helped out with the kids, was never part of the party, didn't do anything with the children. So that right there was a red flag. I'm like, okay, she didn't do anything. She was by the pull with you, making out. She wasn't involved. She wasn't doing anything. She was also drinking around the kids, not really like involved at all, but yet she deserved the group eight rose. So that was my first red flag. That was huge to me. And then after that, my next one was, on the night that he sent Elizabeth home.

He had pulled Cheney and Elizabeth to chat, and he did not really have a real conversation with either of them to break it down and dissect what the actual issue is. He kind of just stepped there and let them go at it, and then was like, okay, done. Like, he didn't, he didn't, there was no proactive discussion at all. And then after that, he sends Elizabeth home. so that was the next red flag to me and then i asked him about it and he told me that he sent her

home because she was being aggressive during their chat and that she was the one like kind of getting an attitude with cheney and cheney was very calm and so he's all that being maryl streep you know yes right and that's what he tells me though and so i'm like oh okay and this is in the moment So I'm like, oh, okay, like, okay, that makes sense. Because I'm questioning your actions, but this makes sense. But then I watched it back when it aired, and I'm like, Sheenay's freaking out and Elizabeth is being calm. So what?

And so that was, that was like interesting to me. And this all happens after Chenet is freaking out and talking to Clayton on the group days and causing all the trauma and he keeps believing Chenet and dismissing everybody else. And so it was all just a really big red flag because it was ultimately, I'm going to believe Sheenay in anything that Sheenay says, and I'm not going to believe anybody else in the house. And when Susie tells you something and talks to you about something, I did, Elizabeth, like, I mean, if you don't want to believe me, because I'm, I see my drama or you don't want to believe anybody else, okay, that's fine, but believe Susie.

If Susie comes up to you and says, hey, this is a red flag, this isn't right. I'm concerned. And he's like, oh, oh, okay, Shaday here's a rose. like no that's a huge red flag and so that happened and then you know all those little things here in there he just kind of kept showing you know that he you know doesn't really have that much of a backbone and and that he thinks with the wrong head and I wanted where you go with that I didn't know how long wait until you see tonight yeah I would love to have you on next week just so you can have uh you can share more thoughts but the uh let's do it

all the time yeah special segment the honesty hour with sierra every week oh that's so cute i like that sierra uh as we as we let you go here in just a few minutes i do want to touch on women tell all uh we've talked a lot about your season and kind of you know all the women's thoughts on clayton and all of that but obviously Women Tell All was, well, I don't know if you're a huge fan of the Almost Famous Podcast. I'm assuming you are and that you listen to it every week. But if you haven't got a chance to listen to yesterday's episode, Ashley and I found this woman tell all, hard to watch for multiple reasons. It felt like a lot of yelling, which is never easy for me to listen to just because I can't hear what's going on. It felt like there wasn't really a moderator. I'm not saying

Jesse didn't step in but typically like that is the host's job is to calm the storm and maybe he just felt like it wasn't appropriate or whatever for you can you explain what it was like to be in that room and what it felt like not only emotionally but also just physically to be there amongst all of this and then how do you feel now after watching it back so being in the room being back there I was I was really just like kind of fed up and exhausted um just with like cheney really and like her lying and all of her bull crap and obviously you know annoying with some things with clinton right and being there i you know i don't think that people realize that the filming of a woman to all is long it takes hours

eight hours eight hours yeah so whenever so and i want to say what you like everyone saw because it was a lot and it was emotional and it was stressful but for me i'm very protective and that's just how i am like i was raised with you know like me and my sisters raised each other parents weren't like really around all too much and so um i have the mentality like to protect the ones I love. So when I look back and I see how hurt Cheney made, my friends, it hurts me and it makes me very, very angry. And like, no one's going to understand that views and watches. They're not because they're not there behind the scenes. They're not there at nighttime. They're not there after the show filming. They're not there for any of it. So they

don't get to see how mentally affected some of these girls were. Cheney. Okay. Period. And so, or Clayton, really, either. So whenever I was able to see that, this is woman tell all. It's woman tell all. That's literally the name.

I'm going to tell anything that I can and say whatever I can. And it's really sad because they cut out a lot of good things too that I got to say that were not so aggressive or this or that. There were other things that I just made really good points on that weren't hype. weren't hype but for the eight hours i will tell you the eight hours of filming everything they showed they they they were showing of me was everything i said in eight hours crammed into two hours except for one or two things that they left out and so if you can take my eight hours of commentary and ram it into two hours obviously that's going to be a lot i was not

like you know what i mean that's going to seem like a lot and it's going to seem like a lot of interjecting it's and it seemed like a lot of shouting, but that wasn't all shouting crammed in at that time. It was literally over a span of eight hours of filming and then obviously clipping, cutting, and piecing together. And other women said things. Other women said a lot of hype things, you know, a lot of women were getting upset. There was a lot of yelling and screaming, and there wasn't a lot of control. And so there are times when you do see me saying, like, shutting up other people and being like,

hey, stop because those were times that I did actually, because before that happened, and they're all getting hype and they're just yelling. They're just yelling. They're not really saying anything. They're just yelling. And I'm sitting there. They're just yelling. There's no actual valid point being made. They're just literally saying mean things, like just yelling. And I have a valid point. I'm going to tell them to stop talking. I'm going to say stop talking and shush. Let me say this really quick. And then you can go back to yelling. But like I just want to make of this one point. And so I did that probably like three times, you know, but the three times I did it because I didn't show everything else, it does look like I'm just not letting other people

speak, but other people were speaking and other people were shouting and yelling and sharing what they wanted to share as I just sat there and looked around. And when I finally had something to say, I was like, hold up, stop talking. Let me say this real quick. Now proceed and start yelling again, you know. So, but it was very crazy and hectic and it was a lot of, you know, Jerry Springer vibes. It was crazy like it was. I'm not going to lie. Like it was, but I'm will say like everything I said was valid and I don't I don't take any of it back and like the emotions that I felt whenever I was speaking were the emotions of that time and being upset because you know viewers don't see she denying something over and over again you know she denies it three

times by the third time I'm like are you fucking kidding me and I'm going off on her and they're clipping the are you fucking kidding me saying it's like you know not really showing the whole context of the fact that she's just denying something over and over again or she's saying like I mean, there was a few times where she literally points me out and she's like, Sierra, Genevieve and Elizabeth, you're fake. You guys are fake. Everything about she's fake or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know. And so we're literally like, how are we fake? Like, can you please just tell us how? Like, just give us any reason why we'll listen to it or hear her. We're trying to be receptive. Like, we want to hear you out. We really, really do. So please tell us how. And she's like, well, you just are. You know you are. And we're like, we'll just give us a reason. So that's my thing is that it was very frustrating because of all the things that went on. It was a lot of denial. It was a lot of pointing fingers. It was a lot of hypocrisy.

And some people can sit back and just stay calm. And then there's other people like me who are just going to get fed up and annoyed and snap. And so that's what I did is I snapped because obviously I have nothing to lose. on the show you don't see me super snap because I'm over here like trying to have my best behavior and I don't want to look a certain way or be a stereotype

or blah blah blah and on this woman to law I'm like I have nothing to lose I could care less at this point this is like you're being stupid I'm going to tell you like it is and I'm going to be emotional and if people don't like it then they can kick rocks I don't care but it is what it is

I've never heard anybody else use the phrase kick rocks i use it on this podcast a lot i've never heard anybody else ever use it and so thank you for that um i say it all the time it's like my favorite thing because i just imagine somebody with their hands in their pockets like kicking rocks down a driveway or gravel road like bye so good oh that's so funny all right well we do have to let you go but before we leave i want i got one question for you just because it didn't seem like you love your portrayal during women tell all you wanted to leave the bachelor would you do bachelor in paradise i don't know come on i it really is up in the i don't think you all really truly realize like

how over it i was during during the actual filming of the bachelor and then by the time i came back and now like watching it back i mean it's like and now women tell all and now i'm getting all these racist comments from random people from women to law and so like for me it's like you know it would be a cool experience I think but ultimately like really truly truly like I just want to get married and have kids like I want to get married I want to have kids I want to have a family I want to live in Texas not pay income tax and live my best life like that's like that's what I want I like I really truly don't I'm not trying to get famous I'm not trying to get cloud like I don't care like I just want a family and I want to have like little babies that look like me

running around. Yeah. And I just don't know if I'm going to find that in Paradise or not. So. Yeah. Well, Ashley did. And you can hear the results of that as we do this podcast. I know. He's a little chatty right now. This is a podcast or a Paradise baby. Well, Sierra, we hope to see you in Paradise. There's a couple of reasons why. One, I do think you spoke your mind. Obviously, as you said, every time you spoke your mind. It was shown. And so it feels like you spoke your mind the whole time. And I know you did sit and listen and then respond. And I know how this plays out. I also think that you're really good to have around because I do think that you speak up what is going on in your heart. And I think that's always positive. And I'm sorry that people have been mean to you since last night's

episode and probably even before that. You're not alone in that. I'm obviously a white dude sitting here, so I can't tell you that I've gotten the same kind of comments, but I can tell you that there's not one person that does this show that does not receive some type of painful comments coming out of it. And so whatever you choose to do, we're thankful for you coming on the day and hanging out with us, and we respect your voice a lot. So hey, thank you. And we hope to talk to you again you're a good guest thank you so much ben appreciate you so much bye thank you bye y'all my boyfriend's professor is way too friendly and now i'm seriously suspicious well wait a minute sam maybe her boyfriend's just looking for extra credit well dakota it's

back to school week on the okay story time podcast so we'll find out soon this person writes my boyfriend has been hanging out with his young professor a lot. He doesn't think it's a problem, but I don't trust her. Now, he's insisting we get to know each other, but I just want her gone. Now, hold up. Isn't that against school policy? That sounds totally inappropriate. Well, according to this person, this is her boyfriend's former professor, and they're the same age.

And it's even more likely that they're cheating. He insists there's nothing between them. I mean, do you believe him? Well, he's certainly trying to get this person to believe him because he now wants them both to meet. So, do we find out if this person's boyfriend really cheated with his professor? or not. To hear the explosive finale, listen to the OK Storytime podcast on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hi, my name is Enya Yumanzoor. And I'm Drew Phillips. And we run a podcast called Emergency

Intercom. If you're a crime junkie and you love crimes, we're not the podcast for you. But if you have unmedicated ADHD... Oh my God, perfect. And want to hear people with mental illness, psychobabble. Yes, yes. Then Emergency Intercom is the podcast for you. Open your free IHeartRadio app. Search Emergency Intercom and listen now. What would you do if one bad decision forced you to choose between a maximum security prison

or the most brutal boot camp designed to be hell on earth? Unfortunately for Mark Lombardo, this was the choice he faced. He said, you are a number, a New York State number, and we own you. Shock incarceration, also known as boot camps, are short-term, highly regimented correctional programs that mimic military basic training. These programs aim to provide a shock of prison life, emphasizing strict discipline, physical training, hard labor,

and rehabilitation programs. Mark had one chance to complete this program and had no idea of the hell awaiting him the next six months. The first night was so overwhelming, and you don't know who's next to you. And we didn't know what to expect in the morning. Nobody tells you anything. Listen to shock incarceration on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi, I'm Janica Lopez, and in the new season of the Overcomber podcast, I'm taking you on an exciting journey of self-reflection. Am I ready to enter this new part of my life? Like, am I ready to be in a relationship? Am I ready to have kids and to really just devote myself and my time? I wanted to be successful on my own, not just because of who my mom is. Like, I felt like I needed to be better or work twice as hard as she did. Join me for conversations about healing and growth. Life is freaking hard.

And growth doesn't happen in comfort. It happens in motion, even when you're hurting. All from one of my favorite spaces, The Kitchen. Honestly, these are going to come out so freaking amazing. Be a part of my new chapter and listen to the new season of the Overcomfit podcast as part of the MyCultura podcast network on the IHawks, Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hola, it's Honey German, and my podcast, Grasias Come Again, is back.

This season, we're going even deeper into the world of music and entertainment, with raw and honest conversations with some of your favorite Latin artists and celebrities. You didn't have to audition? No, I didn't audition. I haven't audition in, like, over 25 years. Oh, wow. That's a real G-talk right there. Oh, yeah.

We've got some of the biggest actors, musicians, content creators, and culture shifters sharing their real stories of failure and success. I feel like this is my destiny. You were destined to be a start. We talk all about what's viral and trending with a little bit of chisement,

a lot of laughs, and those amazing vibras you've come to expect. And of course, we'll explore deeper topics dealing with identity, struggles, and all the issues affecting our Latin community. You feel like you get a little whitewash

because you have to do the code switching? I won't say whitewash because at the end of the day, you know, I'm me. but the whole pretending and, you know, it takes a toll on you. Listen to the new season of Grasas Has Come Again as part of My Cultura Podcast Network on the IHartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Obviously, Sierra was an incredible guest with a lot of insight.

She's one of those people that come off the show that does speak her mind. And that is, especially for a podcast, always appreciated it. I think it was also appreciated. It sounds like by the group. of friends that she had in the house because I do think she supported them well. Ashley, in our last final moments here as we close out this podcast, we do want to run through this episode. We had three fantasy sweet dates. The first two, obviously one with Gabby, one with Rachel. You know, it felt like to me the storyline throughout was, hey, he's into him and

they're into him. And it kind of was like the moderator behind the scenes with Susie just continuing to reinforce into all the viewers' mind, like, are they going to sleep together or not? Like, that was kind of my thoughts. Yeah. At the end, it was just like, Susie's leaving. So, you know, the first two dates, uh, I, I wasn't shocked. I think because of how many teasers we've gotten that he expressed love for both of them. I obviously am not in a place to judge him there. I'm watching going, I get it. And I could go on and on. And we've done it many times on this podcast about, you know, you're in this situation and what that feels like. And, you know, it's chaotic. and you can't really get your thoughts straight.

And the only thoughts you know how to communicate are the ones that you're feeling at that moment. And so he obviously says this. And I'm sitting there going like, for, I bet my name is brought up tonight on Twitter more than it's been in like four years. Like I bet, I bet he, you know, he held my beer. Or I held his beer.

And he went off and did this in ways that I never dreamed of doing it. But I cannot criticize him for that. But that is the first part of this episode. Are those dates going well? in theory for that relationship, him sleeping with both, telling both that he loved them, telling, making, the one thing here that I do think, and you could probably argue I did the same thing. Falling in love versus in love?

Yeah, I mean, I think that was, I think that's like, at some level, like, I would argue it's semantics. Like, I can't give myself, I can't give myself a break there, right? Like, I do think that you could argue that I did the same thing. And so I'm not like saying, you know, I'm holier now here. But probably something I could be criticized for and admit to that I don't love that I did, that I don't love that he did, is I think he led both to believe that they were the one for him. And I think that's a problem because I think in his mind, at least from what we see at the end of the episode,

Susie was the one for him. But yet he is making those girls feel like they're the one for him, which probably makes them, you know, relax, have more fun, come back all giddy like oh oh i just found my husband and again if there's anybody that should be criticized for this or they could sit in the same campus him it's me but i just don't think it was good i don't think it was good that i did it i don't think it was good that he did i don't think it's a wise decision on the show you know when you did it it seemed like it was almost like an accident you're like oh shit right well i didn't think that yeah i was like i went back and pounding my head against my pillow in my hotel room and like i'm an idiot i'm an idiot i'm an idiot i'm an idiot

Like, that was word vomit for you. Yeah. Like, you really did. I feel like you really did feel that, but you didn't mean to, like, actually say it out loud to both. And then with Clayton, it was, like, very intentional. Yeah. Like, he wanted them to know this.

Like, he thought he was doing the right thing. And he even kind of mentioned that to Serene during Women Tell All. Yeah. He was like, you made me make the, you know, in so little words. He's like, you made me make the decision that I should just be open and honest about my feelings towards everyone. And I really think that that was what was going through his head when he intentionally said, like, I love you to all three women. Yeah. And I mean, I would love to give myself the benefit of the doubt. I mean, I do think you're not wrong. I know my reaction once that

day, those days were over. And I know that I went back and, like, paste around my Jamaican hotel room and was like, you are so dumb, Ben. Like, you cannot do this right. You've messed this whole thing up. So I get, yeah, I mean, I felt a lot of like guilt, I guess, because of this. But I also am now, you know, years out, married, happily married, moved on. And I can say, hey, I just don't think it was a good decision that I made. Don't think it was a good decision he made. Okay. So on to his worst decision. Um, one that is a very serious matter is he sits down with Susie. They have a great date. Okay. Pulling our quotes up. Well, do they have a great date? I think it was fine. Maybe I'm over analyzing the body language, but I still feel like she was losing interest. Or maybe I'm

misinterpreting that. Yeah. Maybe it was just her worry. Like her worry, like, oh, what happened with the others? I'm very like, I'm, I'm keeping you at a distance because I don't know how I'm going to feel about you when we actually have this conversation later. I think, yeah. So I was, until you just finished that, I was going to disagree with you. I don't think she was losing interest. I think her mind was elsewhere. I think her mind was on the conversation. They were going to have it dinner the whole time. And I'm assuming she never felt like it was appropriate to have it as they're dancing in a steam shower or they're running through ice. Like that doesn't feel like the right time to have this. And so she made it through that to have the conversation later.

And I do think there was that sense of I'm not in this right now. And I'm just hoping that the worst or what my mind is what I'm thinking in my mind is not true. Okay. So you're pulling up the quotes. And as you do that, this is how the date goes on. They have their morning portion. Ashton, I just mentioned. It felt distance, but I think we could blame that on her mind being elsewhere. They sit down at dinner, and at some point, Susie, within that dinner, says, here's my concerns. Here's where my mind's at.

You've just told me that you love me. And I obviously am very into you, and I'm falling in love with you or I am in love with you. But I need to know if you have been intimate with anybody else. Like, are you telling these other women the same thing? Yeah. So the first question I have for you, Ashley, and for the audience listening, and they can answer it as they hear this, was it appropriate for Susie to ask Clayton on the spot about the other relationships going on at the time? I think, yes. Why?

Why? Because, I think it's an okay thing. I think it's something you should know. I know you said yesterday, you're like, it's different with The Bachelor because like the start of your relationship is kind of like when you leave just the two of you. Yeah. But I think it's like totally fair to know if you're like saying I love you or like falling or like having sex with somebody else before you get engaged to that person. I would say the same thing. I would say it would be a really hard position to be in as the lead.

If that's, you know, the decisions that you've made. I don't think it would be put in a position to have to answer it but I think at this point in a relationship as you're a week away from getting engaged any questions on the table like you should not feel like you have it's all fair it's all fair like it is all fair

even the hardest conversations are fair because you're about to get engaged as somebody and if we're really if this show really is going to form healthy loving relationships you know this with being married our listeners know this if they've been in a really healthy loving relationship. Hard questions are asked all the time. And that's part of it. The communication there fact. Okay. So we've gotten through that hurdle. The second step is Clayton's

response is he is honest. It obviously throws him off and he feels defensive, but he is honest and he tells her. It escalates. That's the thing. At first, didn't really like it, right? And then all the sudden, he's like, I hate you. Okay. But he answered it. So we get to this point. in time where he has answered the question honestly. As we mentioned at the beginning of the podcast, there was a really good way this conversation could have occurred and happened. They both could have talked it out. They might have still separated and gone their separate ways because,

hey, Susie is just like, I can't get over this and this is too weird for me. And you slept with people when you're going to, that would have been an okay result of all of this. But it's how then between her leaving and him having his first initial response or maybe even her question that this thing gets ugly. so fast and so horrible to watch. Ashley, you called me, obviously. You're watching with your sister and your friend,

and you were like, we got to call somebody that's seen it. At what point did you go, oh my gosh, like this is no longer even fun for me to watch. This is hard for me to watch. Okay. The point was when he says, you've invalidated everything we have. What?

Because she didn't tell you before the Fantasy Sweet Week that she would have preferred you not sleep with everyone? Wow. Now, yeah, that being said, I don't have an issue with him choosing to sleep with people. My issue, which you said earlier in the show, is his choice of words, how he's treating her, how he's flipping this whole situation on, like, it being her fault. that they are no longer going to work out. And at its simplest level, like if we just totally like boiled this down to how this whole conversation went, it was Clayton continuing to try to make Susie feel like it was her fault.

Yeah, which is the definition of gaslighting. It is, and it was awful to see because there was no admittance on his part of, yes, I made this decision. I didn't know like that this was going to hurt you. He's not the first lead, as we mentioned yesterday. to sleep with multiple people. I promise you that. There's some leads that don't sleep with anybody.

There's some leads that might just sleep with one. But he's not the first lead guy or girl to sleep with multiple people in the fantasy suites before they get engaged, okay? So we can't be like, Clayton, you're terrible for that. We just can't. But to finish this, I also have never seen a lead respond,

at least in my memory. There might have been one. But like we're talking about this scenario. yeah with the this was the standard this is what your community came to me this is how i've hurt you or this is where you're hurt right now and as a result like i'm going to make sure you feel like you're in the wrong for feelings for susy you feeling this way that's where this whole thing went sideways and it just kept going and going and going in what was sad was how she was responding to it like i felt so bad for

for her because, like, she's trying to, like, fix things. She's saying, like, I'm sorry, even. She's, like, I'm kind of apologizing. And I'm like, girl, no. And I'm like, I understand, you know, she's on camera. I'm sure she's going to watch this back. I'm sure she immediately, actually, it's not even watching this back. Like, she probably got to the hotel room and it was like, I should have said this.

I should have said that. Yeah. Right. Oh, and I just feel so bad that in that moment, she felt like. she had something to apologize for well and you know like you just said you just laid it up perfectly you know she's in an environment where she doesn't have a sound support system around her um she doesn't have the ability to walk away from the table and call up a friend and be like this is what my boyfriend is telling me right now and this is how i'm feeling and this is what i told him like she doesn't have that

and so she's kind of on an island alone and and as you mentioned she's on camera there is this guy who was the bachelor right and like that carries like whatever kind of way and she's trying to figure out if she's going to marry this dude or not so like i i'm sure she did and especially after watching this episode she's going to be like i wish i would have said this and i wish i would have said that and i'm sure she's going to come out probably and say some stuff here publicly but i felt that same way for her in the moment it was like you don't need to apologize for anything susy like there is nothing in this moment you need to apologize for you just communicated your feelings and what hurt you and in a good relationship

with a good partner like that is not received with defense like it never is if any relationship in my life that I would have said to make Jessica is a great example if I came to her and said hey hon what you said last night hurt me

and she would have told me well you're crazy for feeling hurt by that no like you know what she would do she had let me let me hear why like tell me why that hurt you and then she would either say hey I'm sorry I didn't mean it like that or she would say we just misunderstood each other and we would move on with life but she would never ever make me feel crazy for feeling a certain

way that's so wrong especially on a big topic like this he like made him about the victim and think about like how egotistical that whole thing was it was like oh you you think you didn't like a decision of mine well I am gonna break you want to like maybe break up with me like this isn't working out for you well i'm going to break up with you i'm sending you home this is not working for us anymore it's uh yeah it's hard to watch and uh i'm glad that you called me to talk about after you saw it you were you were on a very upset and very and i told you i had to admit to you i was like you know i'm glad you called because i was confused watching it like if my is this real life is this real life and like am i am i at all on the same page as you

you, Ashley, when I watch this and go, this feels bad. I had to get, I had to get some accountability. And we both were like, no, like, there's a reason why we watch this. And then like, it's hard to watch. It's hard to see. And it's unfortunate that, you know, this is going to be such a big storyline now. Really probably, I would imagine, for the rest of this season. Because it's just not a good look. And it's not healthy for anybody to have to witness. But maybe there's going to be good conversations that come out of it maybe people will be like hey do you see this this is not this is not the right thing to do this is not the right way to communicate and maybe people will be bettered for it i hope so but until then it was really ugly it was a it was a really

bad moment for this show and for our current lead it was and and i there's no other way to put it i don't think i'm reading the quotes now and i'm just seeing how many times she said like i'm sorry I feel awful. I feel bad. And then she goes, I can tell every ounce of him that in every ounce of him, he like hates me and I'm sorry for the pain that I caused him. And then he says, everything happens for a reason and I will move and this will help move my life forward. I will find someone who will fight for me. I thought she was that person.

this was my biggest fear the person that I loved being gone wild absolutely wild well um i don't think there's anything else to say we could continue to exacerbate this and keep talking about it and saying how hard it was to watch how bad it was to watch how bad it was to be a part of and um how we feel for susy and you know we obviously don't know what happens the rest of the season but we're obviously going to be um talking about it here on the podcast um oh well let's end with that then what do you think ben is what's going to happen after seeing this in the scenes for the next episode oh i think i think both of them leave

yeah right i don't think they're i mean i i think both of them leave and i think both of them because um yeah because i'm sure he he tells them about how he feels about both them it seems like he does it for both of them together, at least according to the teasers, I think it probably confuses both of them. This is all assumption, by the way. And I think they probably have a similar reaction as Susie's. And I'm wondering now how he handles that. That's all complete assumption.

But I just think in short, they both leave. Right. And that truly will be the first time in Bachelor history that the Bachelor is left alone. the end of this because all of his women left absolutely well well actually uh thanks for talking through this with uh with you know everybody listening and me and then sierra thanks for talking to ashley and i both um the big deal thanks for spilling the tea is that expression chuggy of me um no that's good that's uh she did she she told us a lot um and also i thought seer gave us good perspective into the minds and the thoughts of the uh the women which gives more

clarity to people or to the really the whole season. I wish we would have known that going in, that, hey, there were some women that just weren't into this thing. It would have made sense a lot more on why stuff was happening the way it was. But, well, that's a big episode, but another episode of the Almost Famous podcast. Please again, write in your thoughts, your feelings on this episode to us. Ashley and I both put up polls on social media and Twitter. I've been reading them as actually we're sitting here to keep up the date. Most people don't want women to all anymore. Yeah, I'd say 70% I think I saw them both of ours. That was about mine too.

Yeah, we're not into it anymore. I think just probably because it just didn't seem healthy and it hasn't seemed healthy in a while. So, uh, with that, I've been Ben. I've been Ashley. Bye guys. Follow the Ben and Ashley I, almost famous podcast on IHartRadio or subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts.

My boyfriend's professor is way too friendly and now I'm seriously suspicious. Wait a minute, Sam. Maybe her boyfriend's just looking for extra Well, Dakota, luckily, it's back to school week on the OK Storytime podcast, so we'll find out soon. This person writes, my boyfriend's been hanging out with his young professor a lot. He doesn't think it's a problem, but I don't trust her. Now he's insisting we get to know each other, but I just want her gone. Hold up. Isn't that against school policy? That seems inappropriate.

Maybe find out how it ends by listening to the OK Storytime podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, my name is Enya Yumanzor. And I'm Drew Phillips. And we run a podcast called Emergency Intercom. If you're a crime junkie and you love crimes, we're not the podcast for you. But if you have unmedicated ADHD... Oh my God, perfect. And want to hear people with mental illness, psycho babble.

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Get in here. Listen to the Super Secret Bestie Club on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. What would you do if one bad decision forced you to choose between a maximum security prison or the most brutal boot camp designed to be hell on earth. Unfortunately for Mark Lombardo,

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