The Ben and Ashley I Almost Famous Podcast - What Happens in Vegas with Zachary Reality

Episode Date: March 6, 2025

Our favorite Bachelor Nation reporter Zachary Reality is back with Ben and Ashley to help break down the shocking news of Gabby Windey’s surprise wedding!   Zachary has some inside info on Carolina this season and he’s ready to tell all.   Plus, Zachary shares his expert prediction on how Grant’s season will end up!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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podcast. This is the Ben and Ashley I, Almost Famous Podcast with IHartRadio. It's Almost Famous Podcast. We are here today with, I would say at this point, our most consistently favorite co-host, Zachary Reality, Zachary, welcome back. Thank you for having me back. I'm so excited to be back and excited to get into it with you guys. We have so much to get into.

let's start out with this we all have an uh a take i don't want to say an opinion because that feels weird a take gabby windy and robbie got married i think it was announced yet like this morning or yesterday it was a seven hundred and ninety nine dollar las Vegas wedding the videos are out um i hadn't even heard rumors that they were going to get married i mean we did i don't think this is a shock to anybody that they got married i just hadn't heard rumors that they even thinking about it. Maybe I was out of the loop. So I'd love to hear from you guys what I missed and what you think of it all.

Well, they weren't engaged or so we didn't know they were engaged. But yeah, where did the ceremony take place? Do you know that? Las Vegas. Oh, I know it's Las Vegas. Was it like at the little white wedding chapel like so many other celebrities? It was definitely at a chapel. They've been together for two years.

So I don't think it's the craziest thing in the world. It's like I don't know if fans think it was like after like three months. But it definitely was a little shocking that they kept it a secret for two months. And then it conveniently breaks the week of the Traders finale and reunion. So that is the only opinion or take that I have on otherwise like good for them. It's how they wanted to do it and seem fun. Okay. Now I am so out of the loop, Zachary.

I have not been following anything. And so you're going to have to just teach me. And hopefully there's somebody listening that doesn't know either. And so I'm not wasting their time. Is Gabby still on Traders at this point? She's going to be in the finale. She's in the top six, definitely the top five. Okay, so this is a big week for her.

It's a huge show. Everybody's watching Traders this season. She's in the top, you know, six or five. She's up there at the top. She's going to be in the finale show. And then at the same time, she has this announcement where she got married. I did see that there were some, like, traditions to this ceremony that were implemented. They did do it in the first.

Vegas. Do we know anything else about the wedding? Yeah, they were married on January 11th. Oh, goodness. Yeah, that's the date on the caption. That's why I'm saying it's just weird. And I don't, you know, at this point, it's like, Ashley, you do this too. I mean, I think sometimes as a reality star, we publicize and we could profit off of our personal lives. And, you know, all, you know, power to her. So she definitely dropped these pictures, probably because of the Traders finale. She probably talked about it at the Traders' Reunion, which was film last week. And then she wanted to, you know, share it on her own terms before she got into more depth talking about it on the reunion.

Yeah. I do want to talk about social media strategy here for a second. I've never been one to claim that I know what to do and when to do it. But wouldn't this story you think be best, like, saved? Because she's going to get pressed from being on the reunion. So her name's going to be out there in headlines. People are going to be talking about her. if she waited one more month when this starts to die down from traders and then share that she got married,

don't you think that would have been more beneficial? No, I think the reunion is the peak. It's going to be the highest rated show. I always tell people, like, say everything you have to say at a reunion because that's what everyone's watching. So I think that's why the timing is the way it is. Okay. Perhaps there was some sort of proposal. We're looking at, I'm looking at the carousel photos right now on Instagram, and one of them says,

will you marry me, Gabby, on a crossword puzzle, a digital crossword puzzle. So maybe we'll get the proposal story during the finale. It's like an etcher sketch almost. It kind of wrote me back. She'll say something I think during the reunion, it's so interesting because Gabby was just so different on The Bachelor and on Dancing with the Stars.

So it's just like this new version of her, this new era, like I truly feel like she's peaked and she's become her most authentic self. And I think that's what's really resonating with everyone all over the world. Okay. Zach, I might be asking a politically incorrect question here, but I'm going to ask you. I know you're part of the LGBT. Q. Yes. Community. So just ask him. So, okay. She says husband and wife. Is this? That's a good question. I'm just going to like let you take that over from here. For sure. I don't think it matters. I think sometimes we just say things without meaning. Like I can call myself a she, but I'm not. I'm still a boy. Like I'm not a she. But I don't think we take label. that seriously. So I really think it's probably all that was. He transitioned, right? I don't think so. I don't know. I honestly don't know. I don't know either. I don't know either. But I just don't think the husband and wife was that deep. I think it's just

like a joking fun caption. Okay. Because she calls, you know, because Gabby calls herself a lesbian on the show. Right. Right. Yeah. So she's a lesbian. So she says that, but I don't know what Robbie's pronouns are. So right. These are, this is, Zachary, thanks for answering these questions or walking through them with us. To kind of close this thought up, was this the first time, because it made a lot of headlines, was this the first time Gabby had came out publicly

and said that she was a lesbian on traitors? Because it felt like a bigger story than what I thought it would be because I thought we all knew this for years, or at least a year. Well, the first episode, someone asked her about The Bachelor, and she was like, oh, I'm a lesbian now.

So she said that on episode one, and she originally came out as a lesbian on The View I think about two years ago. And she got into a relationship pretty quickly. All right. That makes more sense. I was like, why is this a story? I don't get it.

I thought this was just a thing that had been, you know, I thought this was already a story or she'd already came out publicly. Well, with all this being said, congratulations to Gabby, because here's what I do know. Talk to her close friends. I won't say names. Some close friends of hers within the Bachelor Nation world when Gabby and Robbie first started dating. And they told me that I'll never forget it because I said,

what is going on with Gabby? in all honesty i was like confused thrown off like what is happening right now help me make sense of what gabby is walking into and they said gabby is so happy they're so in love they're gonna get married and i said wow okay that now clears up everything that i've been confused by and obviously now they are married so congratulations to the two of them on making it official it's a big deal I'm also, though, quite honestly, from what I know about Robbie, shocked that they got married. I never thought this would happen. I never saw Robbie saying we're going to actually like put a title or make a like this covenant together in marriage.

I thought this was just going to be a thing they did forever. But hey, they obviously love each other. They're obviously wanting to make this something more serious. I mean, and she scored. I mean, Gabby Wendy is like hot as hot A.F. I mean, like you got to wipe that up while you can. Yeah. Well, that happened.

Las Vegas. No man could. Yeah, it is absolutely fantastic. That was the first big story. Then we're going to walk into all these other stories that are happening in Bachelor Nation. The reason that Zachary is here today, we do a headlines episode every week, breaking down these headlines that happen in Bachelor Nation.

And they're some big, some small, most of the time, they're kind of Passover headlines. We have some headlines right now, including Gabby, that are ones that we need to discuss with an expert. And that's why Zachary's here. Ashley, last night I'm getting text. I just had a newborn. You guys got to stop texting me at 11 o'clock at night. That's absolutely assinine.

Hey, it's not me. It's our producers. But the point is, Zachary, you are kind of the headline this week. That's exciting. With Carolina, who is one of the more attention-grabbing contestants from this season of The Bachelor. Tell us about the drama that's going down between you two. It's so crazy. because she finally texted me back

right before we hopped on like literally Oh my gosh, perfect. Good, good, good. Maybe she knew she had a spidey sentence that you were going to talk about it again. Right. So thank God because now I know how she feels because originally she didn't talk to me for two days

after she got upset so quickly and I tried to resolve things offline but then it became impossible because of what she was posting. So I feel like what went down is the question like from the beginning. I don't if you guys saw it. I put it out on TikTok, the full story. So let's

part one here. She went to Women to All this week and she was quite public in speaking about how she has gotten more screen time by a lot than any other contestant on grant season. Which is true. Let's say that's very true.

We have the data, the Bachelor data, has gone out there and shown just how much screen time she's gotten over anyone else. But she was kind of ticked off. that they didn't allow her to talk to the press because at Women Tell All, usually the girls that get the most screen time,

the fan favorites or the villains or whatnot, usually go to the press room afterward and talk to Access and E and, you know, all the other major outlets that are there. They did not want her there. And this did not make her happy because I think she wanted to explain herself. And she's alluding on her Instagram story

that they didn't want her. her to explain herself? Yeah. I mean, from what I'm hearing, it sounds like the women to all went in circles for her. It sounds like there wasn't resolution. A lot of the girls were trying to make up with her and they weren't able to. So I think that there might have just been so much talking in circles that it just felt like she was so emotional and maybe it was best that she didn't do press so that she can kind of calm down and collect her thoughts and do a podcast after she has more time to process things when she's just in a more clear headspace to be more articulate. Okay, well, this sounds to me as if that possibly The Bachelor wants her to go on Joe and Serena's podcast,

which is the official Bachelor podcast, where they go for more long-form explanations. Well, this is the official Bachelor podcast to me. Well, thank you. We like to think of ourselves the same as we are, along with Caitlin Bristow, the first podcast. Right, but she does interviews with a lot of people. Like, you guys are all Bachelor Nation, like mostly to their core.

And I told Ashley this, like, I binged your episodes during my road trip, and I love it. thank you so much so but do you do you speculate the same no i think i i just i don't think it's about the podcast sure but i think it's just what i said i think she just really was too emotional and that's probably why they didn't have her due press that's just my opinion my opinion is that they want her to go on the other podcast well that's that two things can be true okay yes true your entire identity has been fabricated your beloved brother goes missing without a trace. You discover the depths of your mother's illness, the way it has echoed and reverberated throughout your life, impacting your very legacy. Hi, I'm Danny Shapiro,

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I'm just like text your ex. Okay. My theory is that if you need to figure out that the stove is hot, go and touch it. Go and figure it out for yourself. Okay. That's us. That's us. My name is Curley.

And I'm Maya. In each episode, we'll talk about love, friendship, heart breaks, men, and of course, our favorite secrets. Listen to the Super Secret Bestie Club as a part of the Mycultura podcast network available on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. In my experience on the show, I do think there would be a fear of somebody overly emotional going on to a, like, press room. I think there's too much that could be said in the midst of anger, in the midst of sadness about the show. Not that there's these crazy things that the show is trying to hide. There really isn't. She could say a lot of things that contestants for years have.

have said about editing and camera time and all these things that it's like it's kind of true but if you're really ever on a shoot it's not really the full story so there's a ton of things that she could say but i'm guessing there's something about what like the path she was going now where the show said this would be bad if it gets out in an interview like this could be this could go wrong which brings me to my question that we started this thing with that i'm unfamiliar with Zachary how did you get involved in this so long story short we mean Carolina worked together about

two and a half years ago on a shoot she works at a do you say where yeah she works at like a she used to I don't know if she does that she works at like a company called flight house so it was just like a campaign they hire influencers to come in for the day it was like a KFC ad like a little dating show and Chris Olson

was actually the bachelor and I was one of the three contestants she was the producer for the day so I was with her the whole day which is strange for me because I usually don't leave the house during the day. So we got close and we vibed, but I haven't seen her

or talked to her in two and a half years. So then once I found out that she was going on the show when they announced the cast, I reached out to her and was like, hey, oh my gosh, so excited. And then she reached out back and we restarted, you know,

some type of friendship then. So we've been talking all season and, you know, she did reach out to me last week about something and I gave her some good advice for the women tell all and just really encouraged her to speak her mind. And then a few days later, I decided to text her on Monday, and I said, how was the women to all?

And then she proceeded to tell me how it was. And unfortunately, it did not go well for her. And she walked off stage. And she told me that she walked off stage during some type of break where the girls were touching up their makeup. And they weren't supposed to leave their seats from what I'm hearing from someone else. But that's the time that they had a second of downtime. So she was able to, so then she walked off stage and was crying and was just really emotional about how all the girls were, you know, ganging up on her. And the cameras followed her backstage, which I think she really felt was an invasion of her privacy.

And, you know, I agree with that. I mean, obviously it's up for debate. It's a TV show. Maybe you guys can weigh in. But I completely understand that it was a really traumatizing experience for her. And I've been, you know, just trying to support her all season and also living for the tea that she spills because, hello, like I love The Bachelor. So everything's always been in confidence when we've talked. But after she told me that she walked off stage,

I decided to tweet, I heard that someone walked off stage and bet you can't guess who. So that really triggered her because even though I didn't say any names or reveal where my source came from, she felt like I kind of misled the situation. And I do feel that I kind of did a little bit as well, but I also apologized immediately

and, you know, I would have deleted it. She just reacted so quickly so then she posted our texts online and things started to transpire from there. Okay, so here's my take. I think that yes, by you saying, guess who, it does allude to her as she's been the kind of drama queen this season. Sure, but also up for a debate because there was another tweet about Dina.

It could have been anyone. Totally. I think that she's also being a little dramatic by being so upset by it and by posting your text messages. Yeah, absolutely. And I feel like that too. So that's why I just wish that she could have texted me immediately and said, hey, like, that was a rude text. I mean, that was a rude tweet. Like, can you delete it or something?

You know what I mean? But within 10 seconds, she was already calling me dirty, saying that I'm as evil as the producers and posting our text online, making it seem like to everyone who doesn't have the full context that I am dirty and then I am evil and producers, evil as producers. When in reality, it was just one misstep of a tweet that I apologized for immediately gave her a heads up that I was going to say something. it's not like it was blindsided and like I what the hell like we've been talking for over a month like there's been so many things she's told me that I've never ever

and still would never like exposed so I just felt like I was trying to do my job and tease to my followers that there was going to be some big explosive moment at the Women Tell All and I probably like you know made it a little bit more dramatic and that's what ticked her off

and then she went even more dramatic and now I feel like it's okay Hi, I'm Janica Lopez, and in the new season of the Overcover podcast, I'm taking you on an exciting journey of self-reflection. Am I ready to enter this new part of my life? Like, am I ready to be in a relationship? Am I ready to have kids and to really just devote myself and my time? I wanted to be successful on my own, not just because of who my mom is.

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Hi, I'm Danny Shapiro. And these are just a few of the profound and powerful stories I'll be mining on our 12th season of Family Secrets. With over 37 million downloads, we continue to be moved and inspired by our guests and their courageously told stories. I can't wait to share 10 powerful new episodes with you, stories of tangled up identities, concealed truths, and the way in which family secrets almost always need to be told. I hope you'll join me and my extraordinary guests for this new season of Family Secrets. Listen to Family Secrets Season 12 on the IHeart Radio,

app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hola, it's Honey German, and my podcast, Grasasas Come Again, is back. This season, we're going even deeper into the world of music and entertainment, with raw and honest conversations with some of your favorite Latin artists and celebrities. You didn't have to audition? No, I didn't audition. I haven't audition in, like, over 25 years. Oh, wow.

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and those amazing Vibras you've come to expect. And of course, we'll explore deeper topics dealing with identity, struggles, and all the issues affecting our Latin community. You feel like you get a little whitewash because you have to do the code switching? I won't say whitewash because at the end of the day, you know what I'm me? Yeah.

But the whole pretending and, you know, it takes a toll on you. Listen to the new season of Grasas Has Come Again as part of My Cultura Podcast Network On the IHartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Okay, well, you teased to us that you talked to her right before getting on this podcast. Yeah. What did she say? Yeah, so I haven't heard from her in a couple days. So everything I felt about it, I said.

said on my TikTok and I also did Courtney Robertson's podcast yesterday. So feel free to listen if you guys care. But she basically just texted me 20 minutes ago saying that she did not want to beef with anyone and that she just felt disappointed that I reached out to her as a friend and that I kind of made things worse for her by posting it on TikTok and that, you know, she just wanted some more empathy and that, you know, didn't want me to add fuel to the fire. So that's basically what she just said. And my response is like, I wasn't trying to add fuel to the fire. She was posting a bunch of stories about the women tell all. Therefore, I have to report on the stories, also trying to like tease it for my followers. You know, like, there's just so many blurred lines

here that like, I just never had ill intentions. And her and her friends accused me of having ill intentions multiple times. And we're really trying to fight with me in comment sections. And it was just so frustrating to have my character be so questioned. And you know, you know what I mean? it's like so ridiculous because it's just like come on like i always gave her the benefit of the doubt as i watched the show like clearly she's made a lot of mistakes on the show and i felt like i was defending her all season long so the one time that i make the slightest mistake in a tweet she runs to that and then kind of sends her friends to attack me it's just uncalled for some context here so from the outside looking in if we're sitting down having a drink talking through this

what um you know signing up for reality television opened you up to these type of scenarios and it's not that people are out to get you however i see where carolina is coming from and the fact that she probably feels like everybody's out to get her because all season it seemed like everybody was out to get her so this whole show except for me exactly so i'm going to get to you but on this on the like filming of the show i've always been more supportive of her than probably the television screen portrays because it's like you are sitting in an impossible scenario. Nothing you could say went over well and nothing you didn't do went over well. So you were stuck Carolyn. Like this sucks. You got in that vacuum in that cycle that the bachelor sometimes throws people into and you can't

get out of it. And it's best just to go home because you're not going to win here. However, you're going to be fine. And if she listens to this, I want her to know that. She's going to be fine, not in the way of like, hey, you're going to like one day be okay. It's like this is actually going to be a really good thing for you. Like give it a week here and don't overreact and everybody's going to be talking about you. Everybody's going to be reaching out to you. You're going to be one of maybe two or three girls this season that's remembered in two more years. Everybody else is going to go on with their lives. You actually have a chance to go on some of these other shows or to do some press interviews or whatever you want to do. We would love to have you on the Almost Famous Podcast.

We'd love to talk to you. We don't want to talk to everybody from this season. But we actually definitely want to talk to you carolina and then the next is i think when it comes to you she probably in that moment i'm assuming felt like you're one more person that's come that is coming after her and the truth is if you look at it from the outside it's like i read that tweet i saw i follow you on x i saw what you tweeted i never once thought you were going after somebody i think all it was doing was highlighting a situation that happened on the show that people are going to now want to pay more attention to and i actually think you did a favor by doing that.

And I hope she sees that because you're not out to get her. I mean, I guess you should answer that question. Zach. Oh my God. Are you kidding me? Are you at to get her? No. Okay.

That was just the hardest part for me. Like, I just don't like people questioning my intentions like that. Like, especially it was just, that was what really bothered me. She's sensitive. I get why she, I get why she's on edge right now. The show sucked for her. It hasn't gone well. It's been a, it's been a brutal experience since the beginning.

Earing it back was a brutal experience. You got the most television time. And most of it was just people ripping. on her? I get why she's on edge. But I bet in three months, she's going to like, all this is going to calm down. She's going to look back in this scenario with you and go, I was so on edge that I overreacted to something that was actually not intentionally out to hurt me. And I'm sorry. Absolutely. I hope that she realizes that. I'm sure she does. And that's, and I've noticed that she's gotten so much backlash this season. So I was just really disappointed that, you know,

allegedly she spondered the opportunity at the women tell all because I really like I was saying earlier about reunions that is your chance to say it all and that's why I gave her such good advice before the tell all I sent her a long paragraph giving her advice and you know it's unfortunate

that she didn't take it and her complaint my take on her complaining about the cameras following her and then making a scene out of her going backstage it's like yeah well you can't really complain about your lack of privacy because you did sign up for a reality show and yes the cameras are going

to follow you if you're crying yeah crying crying is a magnet for cameras yeah you start crying cameras are everywhere uh i do want to ask you guys you both are uh very familiar with this show would this be the first time ever that somebody's walked off stage at a reunion like actually walked off stage and it sounds like she wasn't in the hot seat and walked off stage so i would say that it's not that dramatic i mean we i love a walk off stage moment like Like, also, like, I was, I was trying to rally for her, like, get people excited. Like, this tell-all is going to be lit. Like, she's going to walk off stage.

Like, let's go. Like, I was never trying to, like, you know, make her uncomfortable because, like, we'll, when we see the show, then we can all be like, whoa, what happened, right? So I will always give her the benefit of the doubt. So I'm excited to see the tell-all and see how it plays out on TV. And obviously, you know, it gets cut down. So, unfortunately, things will be cut and could be misconstrued. But I do hope that it is portrayed as accurately as possible because I'm excited to

see what went down. I'll be watching it now. I mean, I was going to have to watch it before because we have to talk about it. But I'll be really excited to watch this now, knowing that at some point she gives the peace sign. I mean, that takes some courage, right? Ashley, you've been on that stage before. To get up and walk out takes a lot of like, you're either really mad or you're very, very strong. I would have never, in my wildest dreams, got off and walked off that stage. I was so scared of the producers that I would have sat that seat for as long as I know. needed. That is so true. Yeah. If you don't want attention, stay at your seat. I mean, I get it though. Like, she probably was breaking. Like, I'm sure it's so brutal having 10 to 12

girls come down your throat and, you know, not being able to articulate your feelings because you're so emotional. So, like, she was probably waiting for that one moment that she could just walk off stage and have a second to herself and just break down. Like, I'm sure that was such a hard day for her. So I do want to just apologize if I added anything to that to her. And I really just didn't ever want it to do that. I just felt like this was a situation that like everyone had to be held accountable and I held myself accountable as well.

And I also just want to mention that you and I did defend Carolina a lot during this season. It wasn't until the last episode that she was on that I was like, okay, maybe not the best move, but there were a lot of reasons for her to be upset throughout the season

that I think she got a bad rap for. And now, thanks, Zach. You have made us look forward to women tell all that we don't really look forward to. That's all I wanted to do in the first place. Yeah. Thanks for being an advocate for the show. A tell all, a reunion, a finale. Sign me up. I'm all about it. That is just like my ideal night. Any time of the week is a reunion. I love it. Zach, have you ever been to a tell all live? Well, I just went to Jones Golden Bachelorette for the first time ever. I was wanting to go for years. So it was so exciting. You got to get yourself a regular ticket to those things. They're wild when you're there

in person. You're like, is this really happening? Am I going to get to watch this on television? Hey, final thoughts. I know you and Ashley talked about this. It's been, what, two weeks, a week and a half since you've been on the show. Kind of your summary thoughts as grant season comes to an end. We just got through hometowns. We're walking into the week of fantasy suites. Are you still enjoying this season as much as you did, you know, two episodes ago? I always enjoy it more towards the end, and that's what I always tell everybody. Like, it always gets better those last few episodes. So let's go.

I'm so excited to see what's going to happen. I am very confident on who he picks, but I am not 100% confident they are still together and that things are hunky dory. So I am more excited to see where this couple is at after the final rose if they're actually going to make it work. Are they putting on a show? Are they happy? And that is what is getting me tuning in and what is making me excited about the end

of the season. Zach, that's a whole other conversation now we have to leave it there for now, but I will come back next week. Why are you not so sure about the happy ending? Would it have to do with what goes down at the finale or something that has gone down since they've gotten engaged, presumably? Like I said, I'm not 100% sure, but I did hear that there could be some issues. Some issues. But it might not, you know, I'm keeping it. so vague, which sucks, right? Because I don't want it, because... No, that's all right. But there just could be...

You know, there's something to look forward to. I think there is going to be some revelations and some drama. And I think fans are going to be really excited to see what actually happens with the final two. How will Grant be remembered then, in your opinion, Zachary? At the end of all this, making the assumptions you're making, knowing what you know and what you've seen so far, how, like, who would you compare Grant to in terms of, how people think of him as the bachelor. I like the who. I would say they'll maybe compare him to Zach Shalbcross.

I love Zach so much. We just don't think about his season very often. And I am totally reserving all judgment for Grant. So far, I think he's done a great job as a bachelor. He's been kind, respectful, and mature. And I am, you know, will give my opinions when I see the episodes. Can I say one thing before we wrap with you? Ben has heard.

that he may pick a winner in an unconventional way. Do you hear the same? The most unconventional way, like a way that will make no fans happy. I haven't heard anything like that. Oh, okay. We'll wait and see. I thought that was perhaps why there has been drama.

We will chat so soon, I promise. Okay, okay, let's do it. I'll have you back on soon. Yeah, thank you guys. Until next time, I've been Ashley. And I've been Ben and I've been Zachary. See ya.

Follow the Ben and Ashley I, almost famous podcast on IHartRadio or subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. Hi, my name is Enya Umanzor. And I'm Drew Phillips. And we run a podcast called Emergency Intercom. If you're a crime junkie and you love crimes, we're not the podcast for you. But if you have unmedicated ADHD... Oh my God, perfect. And want to hear people with mental illness, psychobabble.

Yes, yes. Then Emergency Intercom is the podcast for you. Open your free IHeartRadio app. Search Emergency Intercom and listen now. Have you ever wished for a change but weren't sure how to make it? Maybe you felt stuck in a job, a place, or even a relationship. I'm Emily Tish Sussman, and on she pivots, I dive into the inspiring pivots of women who have taken big leaps in their lives and careers. I'm Gretchen Whitmer, Jody Sweetie.

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