The Ben and Emil Show - BAES 152: MUSK V. ALTMAN: The Most Important Trial Ever (ft. Mike Isaac)

Episode Date: May 14, 2026

This week we've got Mike Isaac from the New York Times giving us the scoop from inside the courtroom at the Elon Musk v. Altman and OpenAI trial in Oakland. Also our newest acid video is out now so check it out! https://youtu.be/7vkFY3f5kkw Give this video a thumbs up if you enjoyed it! And please leave us a comment! It helps us! NEW MERCH OUT! Get 10% off when you sign up and also get bonus content, ad-free versions and more plus your first 7 days free at https://benandemilshow.com ***THE SOUTHWEST COMPANION PASS IS BACK GET IT HERE: https://www.cardratings.com/bestcards/featured-credit-cards?src=691608&shnq=520080,4028088,4048122,4028085,3006151,4048149,4028089,4048084&var2= ***Go check out Ben's movie podcast! https://www.youtube.com/@UCtwCDeHuJTBWUkeQKlLeXhA **CHECK OUT EMIL'S LIVESTREAMS HERE: https://www.youtube.com/emilderosa __ SOME OTHER VIDEOS YOU MAY ENJOY: That's Cringe of Cody Ko: https://youtu.be/dTbEk0pVh2w Our AUSTIN VIDEO: https://youtu.be/yGSs56bFzRU Our episode with Kyla Scanlon: https://youtu.be/cIHWkY35cuc Big Tech is out of ideas (ft. ED ZITRON): https://youtu.be/zBvVGHZBpMw Arguing with a millionaire (ft. Chris Camillo): https://youtu.be/1ZUWTkWV_MM We bought suits HERE: https://youtu.be/_cM1XqA9n2U ***LINK TO OUR DISCORD: https://discord.gg/CjujBt8g ***Subscribe to Emil's Substack: https://substack.com/@emilderosa ***Trade with Ben at https://tradertreehouse.com __ WARBY PARKER: Buy one prescription pair and get 20% off additional pairs at https://warbyparker.com/BAES — using our link helps support the show. #WarbyParker #ad GLD: New customers get 40% off with code BAES at https://gld.com. #ad HIMS: For simple, online access to personalized and affordable care for Hair Loss, ED, Weight Loss, and more, visit https://hims.com/BAES for your free online visit. TIMESTAMPS: 00:0014:50: Intro, why this is happening 14:50-17:25: Warby Parker ad 17:25-30:43: Elon is kinda right, scaring the hoes 30:43-33:05: GLD ad 33:05-45:06: Greg Brockman's journal, Ilya is the good guy 45:06-47:00: Hims ad 47:00-1:00:00: If Elon wins, the bubble popping, how AI fame corrupts 1:00:00-1:15:38: Ari Emanuel, what happens next, music __ Follow us on instagram! @ benandemilshow @ bencahn @ emilderosa Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Elon Musk is suing Sam Altman for $150 billion. Which is like head and shoulders far and away more than anyone has ever sued anyone for anything. Right? That's right. So what exactly is Elon's side trying to prove in this case? Elon says he was defrauded out of the idea that this would be a non-profit company. And a nonprofit company is the only way that AI should be controlled. To be clear, there should be some kind of legal remedy for someone who invests, I believe it's $38 million.

into a foundation that is a non-profit foundation. And they rug pull you? Not only rug pull. I mean, there's literal written proof of them being like, we're edging this sucker out. Suddenly, the more money you have,

the more insulated you probably feel from the dumerism that you previously subscribed to. And then all of a sudden you're like, I want to go to the Met Gala. So they literally ran into that problem in the beginning where she's like, oh, fuck, everyone hates all of our witnesses. The judge started asking people,

you know, can you put your feelings aside and judge just on the merits of the case? It's like that sign you're talking about of like, you know, let them fight or whatever. I hope they destroy each other. I really do. I think they're very dangerous for whoever wins we lose, though, like the alien versus predator. I mean, there's got to be some kind of, there's got to be some kind of beautiful. Thank you, Mike. There's got to be some.

No, I love it. Hey, welcome back to another episode of the Ben and the Meals show. I'm Ben, that's a meal. we are the weekly show that tells you what's going on. And what's going on this week is we got Elon Musk and Sam Altman, former best friends, virtually inseparable, and now sworn enemies. They're going head to head.

Elon is suing Sam Altman. And it's very odd. We talk about it a little with our guest, but it doesn't seem to be getting as much coverage as I would think it would be. And our guest, Mike Isaac, is a New York Times reporter. He's been in the courthouse with his colleague. reporting from this thing daily in the courtroom with Elon Musk testifying

close enough to smell him Satya Nadella Greg Brockman Sam Altman Unfortunately Sam Altman happened today we did not get to talk to him about it And the conclusion of the case

Has not happened yet either But it's fascinating It was very fun of him to come on and talk about Which could have massive repercussions He's suing Sam Altman in opening eye for 150

dollars. No, $150 billion. And it's one of my favorite episodes we've done this year so far. Really cool guy. Mike's a really cool guy. Killer mustache. And a lot of very interesting, valuable insights as to what's going on in the courtroom. So without further ado, let's roll the interview. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of The Ben and Emile show. We're here with none other than Mike Isaac. We got a very special guest today. He's a superstar. You may know,

him from the Uber book Totally Totally pumped Super pumped Totally pumped is actually better Yeah It's called super pumped

Which they turned into a TV show Yeah eventually Yeah He's also a New York Times reporter Yeah Yes Yeah Any other braggadocious things

You gotta get off your chest? I was gonna say I'm slightly overweight I have 41K That's nice. I don't know. That's pretty cool. I lost a few pounds this year. I got a Peloton. Good for you, man. Wow. But for our purposes, for our purposes, he's been covering closely the Elon Musk, Sam Altman case. He's been in the courtroom. It's very exciting stuff. And he's going to be telling us all about it. So thank you for, thank you for being here, Mike.

Yeah. Thank you for having. So you just, you were telling us right before we started that you, you've been up since five in the morning because you were at court. You're going to court. every day and it's a lot of fun. I read your article that you put out today, too, by the way. Oh my God. I think I wrote some of that? Yeah, I did. It was just crazy. So, yes, I've been up to five.

It's been going on for like three weeks. And now I've turned into like a morning person, I think, because of it. That's cool. It's this crazy thing where to get to the courtroom, you have to get there at like probably 6 a.m. because every person in tech who cares about these figures who maybe the average person doesn't care

about, they all just want to like show up. So if I don't get there at like 6 a.m., like I'm not going to get in the courtroom. Right. And that's not just reporters like you. It's also there's some weird Elon fanboys trying to fill the room and just all kinds of weirdos, right? It's great. It's really like, just

from a like people watching perspective, it's incredible. Oh, I bet. It's very much. How many? very much. How many people are allowed in there? Like 60? So there, so as you might imagine, most of it is like lawyers everywhere like you have. So it's Musk versus Open AI. Microsoft is another defendant. And so all of them each have like an army of lawyers. So half the room is literally filled with lawyers. And then the other half, there's 20 media seats saved. And we had to like apply for press pass, but it's two of us, me and my colleague Kade Metz, who are covering it,

so we're like switching off and we didn't get two. And then there's 30 unreserved seats for whoever. And so I'll get there early on the days I want an unreserved seat. And then I'll switch with my buddy to sleep an extra hour and show up so I can get a media seat, if that makes sense. That's very nice. Before we get too far into stuff, can you actually just explain what the hell is going on because, you know, I think it's, it's, it's been very odd for me. It's, it's, um, this is very in our wheelhouse. So we've been kind of paying attention. But when I look, you know, at mainstream media stuff, I feel like it's not getting a ton of scrutiny right now. I've been very surprised, especially at like, I always check in on, you know, the Wall Street Journal has,

I think it's just called the journal. It's their like little daily podcast where they pick a story. And I was scrolling through and I was like, wow, they have not dedicated a single day to, this case and I'm shocked because this is going to have massive consequences. So I do think there might be a large portion of our audience that really doesn't even know why the hell Elon Musk is suing Sam Altman or that Sam or that Elon Musk is even suing as Sam Altman. So if you could maybe just explain why this has happened, that would be great. Totally. And like it's totally fair and like you're a normal human being if you don't know what's going on. Right. Because it's, it's like this business. Am I allowed to curse? Because I guess. Oh yeah.

brother yeah so i just i have a potty mouth um it's this totally like bison teen contract law fight where basically Elon is saying so first of all as you may or may not know opening i started as a non-not-for-profit company based on Elon sam altman and a few other like super um super in the woods AI guys thinking Larry Page is going to take over the world with AI and he doesn't care about humans so we have to create open AI to save it. They work on this for a while. Then long story short, there's a sort of acrimonious fallout between Sam and Elon because Elon says he was defrauded out of the idea that this would be a non-profit company and a nonprofit company is the only way that AI should be controlled because, and this is very socialist of him, once for-profit comes

in that can corrupt the goal of how AI can potentially harm humanity in the future. And Open AI's whole point is, fuck you, man, you pieced out in 2018 and you didn't sign anything. And also, by the way, we are an upstanding still a nonprofit, even though we did this weird Frankenstein move of bolting on a for-profit company years later because we realized how much this company's worth. And so my, so this is like eventually a case that many people didn't think would get to court because Elon waited like, like at least like six years, I want to say, from leaving the company to suing. And only now that he's building a competitor to X to Open AI with XAI are people like, hey, you know, like you now care about the like, you know, morals and mission now that you have this like competing company. And the for-profit, and a for-profit AI.

100%, exactly, which is another important point. But, like, we're in court now, and it's, and, like, the stakes are real. Like, to your point, why do you care? Because it could cripple open AI as they're trying to, I wouldn't say kill necessarily, but as they're trying to go public later this year with an already shitty P&L sort of, like, business and trying to, like, go public with a strong revenue stream. And it's fun. And, like, fun for people like me, because,

there's all sorts of like gnarly emails and evidence that gets introduced into the public record. One thing that I liked about your article today, uh, you, you said, by the way, I tried something for the first time. I did the AI,

um, podcast version where it reads it to you. Oh, I've never even done that. I've never done it before. And it, what do you mean that? What's that?

It, it gives you the option to hit play at the beginning. It says, oh, like this is a 10 minute read. Oh, it's just, uh, it's just a narrative.

It's just, yeah, it reads it. to you. Right. It's not like a podcast. Because I can't read. So I was, I had the thing to, but it was like an Amazon like in this podcast. No, no, no. Like Isaac really. No, it's verbatim. You saw the Katie and Etopolis thing with the. Oh, I know exactly. It was so great. What was it? I don't even remember what it was. It was like hemorrhoed cream or something. Yeah. Yeah. This hemward cream is really good. Wow, Janet cared a way in. Yeah. It'll keep your

butt silky smooth. Anyway, uh, first of all, it was really funny because the AI called it in instead of Open AI, it would say open. I, like the plural of it. It was, it was just funny. Oh, I got to tell the prior people, that's so funny. It was funny. Oh, you're talking about the vibes piece I did. The vibes piece. The courtroom, the inside the circus. Okay, sorry, I thought you're talking about the other thing we literally published like 15 minutes ago. Oh, no. I'm talking about the one came out this morning. I believe it was this morning. But you wrote that these are just human beings, which I think is a. really probably the the perspective that's most unique to being in the courtroom and seeing

that, oh my God, yeah, these are just weird nerds who you can see all their little quirks and affects and like facial expressions and ticks and stuff. And I'm sure it really brings them down way, way, way, way down to earth from up on high that like all the people in X would have you believe. Am I right? Oh my God. It's literally that's why. It's, I mean, it sounds super lame to be like, I love covering court cases, but it's incredible because they can put armies of lawyers or handlers or literal like body cards

and like bulletproof vests in front of them all the time and have these really big stage manage events. But like you can't get out of a federal subpoena to appear in court, you know? I mean, as far as we know right now. And like just being in the room, for me at least, as a reporter to just like just it's a vibes thing where you just around people you get the like feeling you're like oh you're just a fucking dude right like you you get nervous like me or you have

a squish ball because you're freaking out on the stand oh yeah Elon's got a squish ball is that the first time is that the first time you've been in the like you've been in person with either Elon Musk or Sam altman or you've seen them before sam I've known forever just because I knew him before he was like Sam Altman, you know, just because he was at, which is not necessarily a flex of mine. It was more just like he was at Wycombinator and his fame came like very quickly with the opening I thing. I had never, I don't think I'd ever been. I'd never met Eli. I mean, he definitely didn't want to talk to me.

But like I've also never like been socially in the same. We don't really party together or with the same people. So that was the first. So what is, that was a good summary of what's going on with, I don't know if we hit the point. Elon Musk is suing Sam Altman for $150 billion. Which is like head and shoulders far and away more than anyone has ever sued anyone for anything. Right? Right.

So what exactly is Elon's side trying to prove in this case? Yeah, I think the big things they keep hammering on are the idea that. that one, Open AI doesn't care about AI safety, which is like part of what Elon says is driving him. And by the way, like this discovery goes back to like decade old emails in which Elon was, I'm not a huge Elon guy and I don't really trust a lot of things that he says since he's like fully willing to say the opposite thing.

Sure. But he's been talking about this like obsession with being freaked out about AI killing everyone. for as long as I can, as long as anyone can remember. Yeah. And whether you believe that's true or not, which I'm not like bought into it, at least he's been consistent on that. I mean, if Larry Page personally told me that I was speciesist for being worried

about AI, I would probably be a fucking freak too. That's right. That's right. I, yeah, and I will say, we're not the biggest deal on fans here, as our fans know. But I do think that it is somewhat a noble thing that he was so early on saying, this needs to be a socialized thing. There can be no one power. And I do remember, because I've been following all this stuff for the last 20 years,

but I do remember Elon talking about we cannot let AI get in control of the evil doers at Google. So, yeah. Hey, guys. We've got to take a quick break to talk about a. sponsor Warby Parker. Oh yeah, baby. Warby Parker handles my entire eye care. You can't tell right now, but I'm wearing contacts that I got through Warby Parker.

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And that, and that was, so, like, that, he's like, he's got that point. And then the other, like, got to hand it to him point is, like, that is they're trying to land is the fact that they're, they're just saying they're trying to, like, undo this thing that was supposed to be a charity essentially all along, like a nonprofit. And, like, he has a point there, too. You know, like Open AI has basically tried to, like I said, Frankenstein, a for-profit company onto this nonprofit entity. And it has taken them a long time to do that and, like, fight with AGs to get there. So whether or not he has, like, legal standing to sue them as a former, like, co-founder because of the time that's elapsed and stuff is one thing.

But, like, I don't think his, the points that he's making are crazy. Yeah, I mean, that's been the weirdest thing for me. Like he's saying that we are not really Elon Musk guys is an understatement. I have to be a little more tempered. Sure. And so like reading your reporting and reading all this stuff about the case, it's genuinely so weird for me that I'm finding his argument sympathetic. But yeah, you're sitting there going, yeah, you started as a nonprofit. This guy funded your whole venture.

And then you edged him out and we're like, actually, we're for a profit now. We did this kind of fucky thing where the non-profit. profit owns us, but whatever. And so it's hard to, it's, it's, it's really difficult. Is Open AI trying to make the case that they did that, they ditch the, they went for profit out of necessity because of how much money they're absolutely hemorrhaging otherwise? I think they, that's basically, yeah. So through discovery, one thing that old emails are starting to paint this picture of between

discussions with like Sam and Ilya Sutskovo who's like another sort of founding member who testified today and um other folks is that uh and and this guy Greg Brockman who's like key he's the president there um is like at some point they're like oh shit the amount of money we need for compute to to train the AI models that they're building is going really up into the right really fast like And I think this was post 2018, which is there's, as you guys probably already know, the Google Transformer paper, these breakthroughs in AI allow like better training of AI systems, like basically kind of a step function in how AI machine learning is starting to develop. And so with that comes enormous amounts of computing required to run what's called inference to train these models on vast amounts of data. And like, so the case that the point that opening eye is even making is like, look, we've always wanted this to be a nonprofit. But how do you do that when what we're doing costs like vast sums of money that a nonprofit can't afford to that can't like take in unless you just have donors constantly?

Yeah. Can we can we go through a little bit how this has been going? I know we're coming to the tail end here and we don't have Sam Altman yet, but we've had some very high profile testimony. I think it went Elon Musk, then Greg Brockman. I think Satya and Adela is maybe happening soon. It was this morning, yeah. Okay, this morning. Actually, I accidentally ran into, almost ran into him in the hallway while I was like

shoving lunch in my face. I was like, you're worth $3 trillion. I'm surprised your bodyguard didn't tackle me. So like just from someone who has been in the courtroom, how has that been going? like, you know, Elon Musk had that famous quote where, like, you know, you guys are going to be the most hated people in the world. Is the court and the jurors, are they buying into that? Or is everyone just coming out looking terrible? So it's really funny.

I'm actually, this is the other insane thing. Like all of these random people have started invading my DMs asking me like the odds of who's going to win, which I assume is like translating to like we all got to place our bets yeah which is which I'm like obviously I'm not talking to anyone until you guys click your bets right but like I but even if I wanted to like it is very unclear who's going to win this and I think um in my opinion because of a few things one this is a jury trial and jury trials are like throw caution to the wind sort of like you have no idea which way it's going to sort of blow a lot of the time you know It could be like that lawyer was a dick.

I don't like him. I'm not going to like go with that, you know, like, or so I think that's the first part. The other part, too, is that even when the jury rules, there's something called remedies, which is what the judge decides. The judge could also throw the verdict out, you know, if she wanted to. But she's typically someone who hues to, uh, respecting the jurors and their decision, but she still would have to decide remedies. so she could be like, hey, you owe us, you owe the charity, which they would have to return

the money to, $19 gazillion, and now you're destroyed. Or she could be like, you owe them a dollar. Yeah, you owe them a dollar. And so that is all to say, it is every time my editors or someone ask me, I'm like, I have no fucking idea, basically. But to your question, there's both sides are landing points. Like, they're putting points on the board, you know? and like some of it is just,

I think Elon had a very few first effective lines with hammering into the jurors' heads that they're trying to steal a charity is the line he keeps saying, you know? And I think punchy, memorable lines can really work on people. I'm not calling the jury stupid. I'm just saying like, how do you like, if your case is these people are trying to steal a charity

and I care about the future of mankind versus here's like a bunch of contract law that we want you to understand, And that's like a very hard dynamic, you know. And so, but at the same time, opening eye has gotten their licks in, too. So I really think he could go either way. Were there moments where Elon had, you know, he landed his points, but there were some moments, if I'm not mistaken, where the judge had to kind of reprimand him a little bit because he was really going on some of these. He was scaring the hose. Yeah.

Well, because he, he, from what I remember, he was saying, oh, if the whole, he. He's trying to play so fucking dumb. He's like, I just care about charities. And this is, if this happens, if they're allowed to do this, then any charity is up for grabs. And I care about that. But then on top of that, it's the AI could, you know, have you seen the movie Terminator? You know, he's talking about that. And yeah, that's when the, I believe that's when the judge essentially said, you need to shut the hell up and stay on topic here.

Right. Yes. No, she did. She got really tired of him saying, like, she actually. didn't allow some testimony around like existential risk and like this one expert around safety AI expert saying like yeah we're all going to die like she she there's moments in the morning it's like 30 minutes before this maybe before the stream comes on I'm not sure but before the jury comes in where she talks to the lawyers about what's allowed in and not and certain stuff got struck because

she she said exactly what you said like this is not an AI Dumerism debate that's not what we're doing here. What we're doing is like talking about a charity. So she had to like whack Elon a few times. And then when he was off the stand, like she would admit on he was like not a cooperative witness because he was just being very pedantic and like would get into fights with William Sabbath, the lead counts for open AI. So like it genuinely is so much fun watching these people like bicker and squirm. Oh yeah. I bet. So Elon's whole thing is just to just to recap. So make sure I understand it is he's trying to say that Open AI betrayed their original founding principle of we are doing this for the good of humanity. But it's pretty obvious to those of us with

functioning brains that it's really that he's upset and he's butt hurt, frankly, that he missed out on all of the accolades that now Sam Altman is getting. And he's kind of had to scramble to compete with OpenAI via his X thing. Do I, do I, do, is it? Is he, Is that about accurate, would you say? Yeah, I mean, look, I think it's one of those weird situations where you're like, clearly you are conflicted and building a for-profit competitor to this company. That you admit is cribbing off of Open AI. Yes.

And yeah, and literally, yeah, like, yes, exactly what you said. Like, in court, he was training his own models on OpenAIS. So, like, he's doing the thing that he's yelling at Open AI about. And can he still be right? even as he's being hypocritical, you know, like, can you say, well, also you, I mean, yeah, like, it's such a, like, the, the signs that are really resonating for me the most are, like the protesters outside who are like, everybody sucks here, you know, like everyone is kind of wrong, but kind of right in the same way. It's very funny. I mean, if there was no cross-examination,

you'd be like, oh, Elon, I'm with him, you know, he got, they robbed this thing from him and he's You had that quote in the piece today about how the vibes piece where he was like, I'm really looking for a Gene Roddenberry Star Trek situation and not a Terminator 2 situation. And if you just know nothing or if there's no cross-examination, you're like, yeah, okay, great. I also like that. We've got to make this guy whole. But knowing anything about this guy, you're like, wait, I don't remember in Star Trek the guy being like, I need 10 trillion dollars. And I'm like the most evil man in the world.

So it's just, no, you're totally, you're totally right. And I think that, I think, I think open it to your, to their credit, I think opening I has done a good job sort of trying to remind the jury, uh, hey, homeboy is not like purely altruistic. Even though like the whole beginning of, uh, musk's councils like opening was like laying this foundation, not just like, you're stealing a charity, but. also trying to establish he has been focused on projects that were, quote, unquote, for the good of humanity. Like, he wants to build electric cars. He wants to go to Mars. He wants to do all that, blah, da, da.

So, like, I think they're, you know, they're trying to recast his image, certainly of later years into this guy who's only been focused on humankind. Right. Does that, do those points about making Elon look crazy and stupid for, for trying to, make these arguments while also building his for-profit ventures. Is that kind of all they have? Because it does seem like when you have the Greg Brockman's come out, for example, they're also like doing self-harm here a little bit with like, you know, is every time they get a lick on Elon, it seems like they're making themselves look silly as well.

So is that like really playing into this? I think, I think they, yeah, some witnesses that, so actually the, the, the, the, All the witnesses so far have been Musk's side, which is probably not atypical. Like it's the plaintiff's side. Only today did they rest their case. And opening eye side, they're calling, they call Brett Taylor, who's on the board now, and he's a longtime Valley guy. And then supposedly Sam tomorrow.

But they've mostly been on the defense doing cross-examination with other witnesses. I would say another. sort of card they played is talking to Chavon Zillis, who is, how to explain this, she's, she's worked for Musk at a bunch of different companies, NeurLink, I think a boring company, Tesla, an Open AI. And they also bore four of his children, which is probably, which is the thing that, opening I. And so like what Open AI is saying is like, Musk, even after he left, had this like mole inside of the board in the form of the mother of his children and was like still like

knew still knew what was going on and like never objected to it and da-da-da-da-da-da. Like I think they have and like they would produce these emails like showing a equity structure of a for-profit version of Open AI and giving Elon something like 50% and he never objected to that. And so, like, they're trying to, like, also say, dude knew exactly what was happening until it became inconvenient for him and he was building a competitor, basically. Hey, gang, we've got to take a quick break to talk about your style. Because folks, guys, when you're putting your outfit together, it seems like you got everything, huh? You got your shirt, pants, hopefully some underwear, your socks, your shoes, maybe some headgear, hat. but there's always something missing, right?

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Please support our show and tell them our show sent you. And he huffed and puffed and left and said, you know, fuck you guys, I'm leaving and I'm not funding you anymore. Yeah. I found that the Greg Brockman thing seemed to be the most damning because from what little I saw online, they somehow got his personal journal. I didn't know that you could subpoena or get through discovery personal journals

but wherein he says like he basically cops to it he says gee i hope i hope it's okay that we're kicking Elon Musk out and lying to him and switching to a for-profit model boy oh boy but also man i stand to make billions of dollars isn't that essentially what he said in his personal journal so good my favorite did you see the memes online of like the wire like when uh fuck it was so good It was a stringer bell moment where a guy is taking notes during them talking about drugs. Like, are you taking fucking notes during a criminal conspiracy or something? And it was literally, I mean, I'm not claiming they were breaking the law. But it was literally that, like just like real time mind dump of everything.

I didn't know that you could do that either. But dude has been journaling. And he said this in court. He's like, it's been very painful for me to see my entire like brain poured out on paper and then used against me later on. And apparently he's been journaling in court still, so he hasn't learned his lesson. That's right.

It is, I mean, this is always surprising. It's like every time they do discovery, it's like you just cannot believe people are like, oh, we should write our community, we should write our crimes down to each other. It's unbelievable. It's really beautiful. My theory is that Zoomers,

my theories that Zoomers are particularly fucked because they don't do phone calls. So, like, it's all going to be just slacks and text messages forever. Do you think that those, the Mira and Sam Altman text messages, were those intended to damage Sam Altman's character or something as proof that Open AI didn't even trust their own leader at that point? Yeah, I think that's a real, a lot of this, I would say, on both sides is like a temp set, not character assassination, but just sort of like pulling back the idea of these guys are not what they seem,

or at least not what they're portrayed in public. Like for Musk's side, it's like even Sam's closest colleagues, like, created a memo and said he was an untrustworthy piece of shit and fired him. And there's reason, right? And then opening eyes like, Elon Musk is a scumbag and DM'd Greg and Sam and said he was going to make them the most hated men in America. like two days before to the trial start. A ton of it is like both sides trying to convince a jury that each CEO sucks basically.

How do you even find jurors, especially in the Bay Area, who are like untainted by these guys in their constant rhetoric that we're all getting force fed each day everywhere we turn? So they literally ran into that problem in the beginning which is like, oh fuck,

Everyone hates all of our witnesses and like had to say the judge started asking people, you know, can you put your feelings aside and judge just on the merits of the case? Like sure you hate Elon or sure you hate AI or whatever, but do you feel like you can be impartial on this? And eventually enough people said, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I don't know. I mean, like, I'm very curious how much of that will still play into because people. humans are humans, you know, but like, I think that's ideally, or eventually is like, that's where they're hoping to net out, basically. Right. You said that Ilya testified today, right? Oh, yeah.

How was that? Incredible. Tell us about it. Holy shit, man. So he was, he's like the good guy throughout all of this, right? He's like the true, he's what Elon thought that he was, right? Yes, he's the actual altruistic, like, Both of you guys are fucking psycho.

I'm out of here, right? He's like I'm genuinely scared. Yeah. So 100%. And like it's one of those things where I'm, I've been in the industry or I've been writing about tech for like a while and I'm typically not fully jaded, but just I don't instantly believe that everyone is in it for like the good of humanity and stuff or whatever. You know, and like, they're like, oh yeah, you want to fucking save the world, whatever.

But like this guy, this guy, like, I don't think I've met a more earnest sort of dude who believes this like, I only care about EGI. I don't care about money. I only care about like what AI is going to do. You know, in, and clearly like socially, let's say awkward in some ways, but like just like in a very techy way. But also like incredible sort of like I post. about this but he has this sort of like dostoevsky in russian literature depressive element to the way he speaks it's really incredible he's like something about selling your company is like the death of a dream and you can't sell the company you have like he's fucking it was beautiful and i and also he doesn't he just started like scanning the room like the terminator like not looking at people but just like it was very it was one of those things where i'm like okay this is the ai guy

I want to like profile because he's like the true believer, you know, like forget all the other people. And what was what was, go ahead. Oh, I was just going to say, and I think he, I was trying to decide which side he would be better for because on the one hand, for the must side he was probably effective. He laid out how he felt Sam was totally untrustworthy. He, uh, created along with Mira, Marotti, this C. chief technical officer this like essentially a dossier of like here's all the messed up shit that sam does to give to the board and uh that led to sam's ouster and he's also on the board uh or was and so um so like that from this guy who's considered generally revered i thought landed pretty well with the

must side but then the opening eye side questioned him and they were like he sort of admitted look like not all the stuff in that document was fully vetted and I said that to the board and then other members of the board said they didn't care when I told them that so like kind of shook the foundation of how much the jurors should believe the board who fired Sam so I think he was

affected for both sides but yeah he was incredible man I really want to I want to hang out with you guys Is Miramaradi going to be called to testify at all? So she did a deposition, actually. So she was deposed and they only played a video because she was in New York for the Met Gala instead of testifying at the trial, which, you know, I guess I get it. I probably would have gone to the Met. But no, she did testify.

And then hers was pretty damning, I would say, for the opening eye side, because it was all about how she was like Sam's a big scumbag, basically. And what was, can you talk it all about Satya Nadella's testimony this morning? Yeah, he was really. Like what was the Musk side trying to get him to a cop to? I think the, so they, the, it started with the Open AI side and Open AI used his testimony to paint the board as incompetent. I mean, Satcha essentially, he said like, what did he say? It was like amateur city over there, basically.

Like he was pretty, because they didn't give him a clear answer on why they fired Sam. He was like, he immediately he jumped to, oh, this is criminal or like this is like, you don't fire a CEO of a company unless there's some sort of like skeleton in the closet that is like crazy. And then after the second day, after day two, this was Friday night, Saturday, he started to realize there was like not a smoking gun or whatever. and was just upset that the board couldn't give him like a straight answer on like why you fired him in spectacular fashion. And so I think for the opening eye side, it was like painting the board as incompetent. I think for the Musk side, it was, there was this line. So Microsoft's also a co-defendant in the case. So they're kind of like trying to go after Microsoft as well for money, which also benefits Musk.

and kind of showing how there's some emails that Nadella had about saying they didn't have the IP and they really needed it in order to not become irrelevant and then also like hinted at what was it? It was like hinting at sorry, I'm just trying to remember the line he landed, but something about like hinting at like they didn't have this IP and they didn't want to be IBM and they needed the IP and they were trying to I don't remember how they made it but it's sort of like referencing it as a for-profit company rather than a non-profit company and that they needed to invest this money and get equity in order to gain the IP which is like

a direct line to like this is not how a charity is sort of treated basically it's like more of an investment. And Satcha sort of pushed back and he was like, no, this is a charity, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But I don't know. I'm not, I don't think he was a great witness for Open AI or Microsoft because again, it was more of an abstract point, but I, um, or sorry, for the Musk side because it was a little more hard to connect those dots. But he probably would have helped, he probably did help open AI by saying the board that fired our CEO sucks because they couldn't point me to any like concrete thing. if that makes sense.

What I keep bouncing around in my little pea-sized brain is why is it such a bad thing to go from being a non-profit to a for-profit? Why can't people can change? Why can't companies? Why can't charities? Just listening to you talk. I mean, God, I'm just sitting here thinking, like, I wish all tech guys were just like Sutskever, you know?

Like, I don't want Mira going to the Met Gala. Honestly, I want guys who are like, I don't, what is that? I don't care about that. I'm trying to save humanity. And that's all I care about. Like, I think anyone who watches this show knows we probably feel like these guys are like sickos, man. It's like, it's very scary, you know? It's like that sign you're talking about of like, you know, let them fight or whatever.

I hope they destroy each other. I really do. I think they're very dangerous for us. I think. whoever wins we lose though like the alien versus predator I mean there's got to be some kind of there's got to be some kind of beautiful

thank you Mike there's got to be some kind of I love it there's got to be some kind of beautiful situation we can get where like open AI is forced to wind down and it also screws over Elon I don't know I don't know so that's Hey gang we got to take one more quick break

and we'll be right back with Mike Isaac but first we got to talk about your hair. Is it thinning? Is it starting to make you feel anxious? Are you wearing a hat all the dang times? Yeah, are you wearing a beanie? I know some guy, one guy out there is always wearing that beanie.

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featured products include compounded drug products which the FDA does not approve or verify for safety effectiveness or quality prescription required see website for full details restrictions and important safety information individual results may vary based on studies of topical and oral monocodin fanasteride what happens if Elon wins I know you kind of alluded to even if the jury says it's ultimately up to the judge but like what is the worst case scenario if Elon wins sure so uh uh Let's say, okay, I'll start with Elon loses. Elon loses, everything is the same. Like, this is why Elon is actually in a great position, because all he can do is Chuck Rocks and then he pay, all he has to do is pay lawyer fees, which is like, fucking pocket change. So to him, if he wins, let's say the most devastating outcome, judge awards $150 billion in damages, which is insane,

and like more than they have raised, I believe, to this point. it's like a yeah like a more than a 10% of the market cap well the valuation not the market cap um she could make them unwind the for-profit structure that they spent the past two years creating and revert it back to the non-profit also the 150 billion in damages would go to what Elon is asking is for it to go back to the nonprofit so if he paying themselves which is weird, right? But it's because he's trying to say, I'm not enriching myself, I don't want your

money, I'm the richest man alive. I just want it to go to saving the world and making safe AI. It's actually, he's probably a smart strategic thing. So is he kind of saying, if you award me $150 billion, I'm basically just giving it right back to them, but the charitable wing, right? Okay.

100%. And then... What a nice guy. Yeah, I know. Totally selfless. And then make Microsoft de-invest because of that. And then the sort of coup de-graw would be removed Sam Altman and Greg Brockman from the top of the company, basically entirely from the company. Wow.

And so I would argue this doesn't necessarily kill Open AI, but it severely fucks them up, especially at a time where literally they're trying to IPO this year. Here's all the shit that's going on. They're trying to IPO this year. They have Anthropic eating their lunch because they have this insane coding product that has gone from like zero to a thousand in revenue in like four months, basically six months. They have SpaceX bearing down on them. And while XAI sucks as far as models, going public first and what will literally be the biggest public offering of all time could suck a lot of cash off the table for retail investors who want to get. AI exposure, which is another sort of complicating thing. And then like if you, and then they also have like their own partner, Microsoft trying to hedge

their bets and not like fully being invested in open AI and building their own stuff with with co-pilot, which also kind of sucks. But like they're doing like they're, it's not all just open AI. So I just feel like open AI has got like a lot of a lot of guns pointed out of its head right now. Who do you want to win? I don't care. I'm just here for the ride. I literally, I mean, I think your point is well made, which is like, like, are we supposed

to like be happy if either side wins? Like, is there a version of this where you walk out of the courtroom and like, hell yeah, I'm really glad? I don't think so. Like, it's still, it's still, let's say it's still two of the most powerful people in the world deciding what may be, I'm not even to say something that kills mankind directly, but let's say very consequential technology that has the, that has the ability to alter society, if not because it's so powerful, but just because it can profoundly mess things up in a lot

of ways. Environmentally, disinformation, whatever you want to call it, you know, like this stuff does change outcomes in our lives, late from a labor perspective in the economy. So I officially I don't have any preference, but I also think, like, soberly we should think about what that means depending on who wins and loses. And it doesn't seem like a great outcome either way, unless you're really on one of their sides. Yeah. Yeah, it seems like, um, I also have to do the New York Times guy thing of like giving you a long, wordy answer that says nothing and just like, who knows? I don't know. No, but I mean, I get it. Because when I think about it, I'm like, all right, I kind of want Elon to lose, but then it's just back to the status quo, which is fine, I guess, but I'm trying to

think about what would, it seems like if Elon were to win, it would probably actually ultimately hurt him because it feels like that would be the impetus for the, I put in quotes, the bubble popping because. Oh, that's a good point. I mean, Jesus Christ, the implications of that are so unprecedented and unknown if something so big is open AI. Are you saying like if, if Open it. Oh, opening it goes down. Having to wind down. Like, what the fuck does that look like? It is crazy how they are like a too big to fail sort of thing, like cog in the machine at this point, you know? Like they are invested in by world governments, literally the US government is like hooked into them.

Like all these hedge funds. That's the other like scary thing long before this trial is like how much of our like index funds and the American economy is propped up on all the shit right now. Yeah, man. That is where the S&P 500 growth is happening right now. It's the only reason why people retirement funds are still kind of going up is because of all the fucking insane buildout in AI infrastructure. Exactly. And so if that pops, that's scary.

I agree. But then I'm sure that within two weeks, the market would process it and go, okay, so everything's still fine, though, because Anthropic is still spending money. XAI is now picking up the slack and all that money that's being sucked out of OpenAI has to go somewhere. and it's going to go into meta and it's going to go into Google and all that shit.

That's a good point. And even then, if Elon wins, like you said, there's a possibility that the judge just kind of back hands him and says, like you originally said, oh, yeah, you've got $1 is what it'll cost you. But then it's like, what does that change? It doesn't really change anything.

It really is a confounding case. It's really just a matter of, it's like two it's like two warring siblings tattling on each other and mom ultimately just saying like you're both schmucks just go back outside and keep playing like it I don't

I don't mind you of oh sorry go ahead no go ahead I was just because it reminds you of have you ever seen the movie burn after reading yes at the end so it's incredible I just rewatched

what did we learn here nothing well whatever fucking incredible but it feels very real that's like my favorite send up of DC like security state stuff it's just so funny

perfect it's unbelievable we have your shit but but yeah is Brad Pitt's best role I mean he's unbelievable his face right before he gets shot in the closet is like is like ironed into my brain

but but yeah I mean as we've been going through it with you like I did kind of start sympathetic to the Elon thing but just as we go through it and we kind of touch on it here at the end, which we weren't talking about in the beginning, this whole IPO thing, which I think has come up in some of your reporting, is like, that's just another thing that makes all this timing so odd, right? Like, there's these colossal, there's these colossal IPOs,

and there's only so much room for everybody. And he obviously wants to come out the winner. And my God, that's like, I'm just sitting here with this terrifying vision of, like, Elon just consolidating more of this horrific it's fucking ridiculous empire he's building I keep going back to this isn't what opening I did isn't it doesn't strike me as illegal it's just kind of immoral

I guess which is not something that I'm surprised that it's even made it this far to court actually um unless I'm wrong is there again is there a law but to be clear there should be some kind of legal remedy for someone who uh invests I believe it's 38 million million dollars into a foundation that is a nonprofit foundation.

And they rug pull you? Not only rugpole. I mean, there's literal written proof of them being like, we're edging this sucker out. He steaks, by the way. You know,

I think it's in the state's interest to be like, hey, we actually don't promote those kinds of business relationships because it's bad for the public. Totally. I mean, and just Ben, I think to your point is really

is important in the sense kind of what we were talking about earlier and like how should I feel about this or like the thing like it just feels gross and like I one real lesson for me not just in this but I feel like in I think this is a Silicon Valley thing is like they started

when it was like a bunch of guys sort of kind of navel gazing in the sense of like what if we have a Terminator future I'm scared and like also back slapping like in a real jerk off way of like here's all the things that like could happen and then chat gpt happens this moment where open i had no like no idea it was going to be what it was as far as popularity and like the most popular downloaded app in history and also like

a little bit before that they're realizing there's like real momentum in AI and like the potential for it to be a company and i think as soon as like the dollar dollar signs and the not even the money, but like the power and the ability to sort of like corner or be on top of this exit thing, this whatever, you know, latest trend is, something just like turns in one's head in this industry. And all the sort of like starry eye and altruism from before seems a little less pressing and a little less important and like only, like literally only, I'm not trying to glaze them too much, but like, Ilya is the only person I've heard consistently talking about that in terms

of like, I don't give a shit about the money. I want this to be saved. Da-da-da-da-da. And I don't know. I just, I think that the valley is about power and conquering and staying on top. And it really can pervert things that might have been like real or true or initially like well-intentioned, you know, and that's, that's the real, as someone who's lived here for 20 years and like was kind of, of attracted to some of the stuff going on out here. Like that's the real bummer for me is what I would say. Yeah, that point you made about chat, I feel like I was reading somewhere that, that even so whatever, they edged him out and they edged Elon out in like 2018.

But I think someone was saying that even after they did that, it really wasn't until chat GPT gets released in, what is it, 2022 or something like that, where they go, where they just start going crazy. And so even that period between 2018 and 2022, they still had that mission-driven, like, we're doing this for good, we're doing this for good. And then all of a sudden they get a hit app. And they're just, they go nuts.

Being good sucks, it is for losers. We're just going to be so big we can't be stopped. Which is just crazy. They just see some dollars. It is... Suddenly, the more money you have, the more insulated you probably feel from the dumerism that you previously subscribed to. And then all of a sudden,

you're like, I want to go to the Met Gala. I want to have stalkers trying to kill me. I want to be that important. I do like so much of this, like, and this is what I don't, I'm probably not me. There's probably a book in this for someone just because like so many of the like, uh, arcs are, are just like we see them all the time in this. But it's always about I like maintaining power and then being cool, like going to the Met. hanging out with fucking whoever

I guess the Met isn't cool anymore or ever but like whoever goes to the Met like... Dimitia Salome. Yeah, yeah. Right. Although is he, has he as someone maybe 30 years younger than me

says, is he high key falling off or potentially low-key falling off? No, low-key he hasn't. Well, ever since he ragged on the ballet and the opera, I think people were... Yeah, but people were people are tripping. But yeah, it's funny.

They have this connection to these, like, these characters now kind of, you know, they've broken containment from Silicon Valley. And in your article, I was like, what the fuck, Ari Emanuel is coming in with his, what is it, a Herod's bag with his little pillows? And you just like, he does not like me. He was very funny. I don't know how often you've been, like, fully snubbed, like, multiple times in a room full of people. but he was like, fuck you. Not,

not, he was with his mannerisms. He was like, fuck you. Why? What did you say about it? I mean, they just don't,

I think Elon, I know doesn't like me, but also just like, and he's like, Ari is like team Elon, but I think that. And to be clear, Ari Emanuel is the,

if you don't know, he's the head of, or was for a long time, WME, the massive, most powerful, agent, you know,

Hollywood agency. Yeah. Totally. The guy who, the one, I never watched the show, but entourage, that one character is based on an entourage. And, like, he's this, like, super agent and a powerful connector. Also the owner of the super yacht that the photo of Elon and the bathing suit got taken,

which is funny. But, like, he's, like, just kind of a bulldog and also a loyal friend to Elon. Like, he showed up, he didn't have to be there, but he showed up on the days that Elon was testified. This episode is brought to you by FedEx. These days, the power. Power move isn't having a big metallic credit card to drop on the check at a corporate launch. The real power move is leveling up your business with FedEx intelligence and accessing one of the biggest data networks powered by one of the biggest delivery networks. Level up your business with FedEx, the new power move.

And I think, yeah, I think they just don't think I am being fair to. them or whatever, which is fine. Like, it is what it is. Which I feel like oftentimes with guys like this who are just extremely unsavory, any reporting on them is like, oh, you just treat me so unfairly. You hate my guts. They're very sensitive to it. Yeah, they're extremely sensitive people.

So they're just human beings. They're just human beings. So what do you expect from Sam Altman's testimony? And I guess a follow-up question of that, and we can probably wrap it up thereafter, is what are you expecting to hear from the OpenAI side when they finally present? So this is the funny thing. We're almost done.

Like we have this week, and I was actually surprised, so we have this week. So Musk's side rested its case today. Brett Taylor's on the stand. He's just saying everyone in Open AI is great, basically. Remind me who Brett Taylor is? So he's sorry.

Yeah, like if you're not like in the valley, you don't know who he is. but like he was formerly Facebook CTO he went to he was on the board of Twitter when Musk took Twitter over and then he's like one of these professional board member guys who is seen as like Switzerland and like an operator but like someone

who you can trust in his upstanding basically and like if there's a short list the funny thing is Larry Summers used to be like the guy always on that short list and now he is mega canceled but like Brett Taylor is like the guy that everyone in the valley goes to when they're like, we need a respectable board member. So he got called in to be on Open AIs board

after the first board imploded, basically. So he was testifying then tomorrow, likely Sam, and then that's probably it. The judge is saying closing arguments on Thursday, and then we go into deliberation Friday. There's no court, and the jury just starts deliberating on Monday. Wow. Would you mind going briefly into the Larry Page cancellation?

I'm not up on that. Sorry, Larry Summers. Yeah, yeah. Oh, Larry Summers. Do you remember the Harvard? Yes. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I thought it was Larry Page and I was, okay, okay.

Larry Page is not as cancel as far as I know. Larry Summers doesn't look like that much of a pervert. Come on, man. Yeah, Larry Summers, Harvard economist and was, yes, asking for girlfriend advice from Epstein and just the general creep. and yeah. So it was gnarly because all of that stuff was coming out as the opening eye board stuff was coming out. And like, so I got a source that was talking to me

about the Larry stuff. And then he gets booted and like, that shit was crazy. But yeah, it's all these people are in the same like little circles, you know. Oh, it's so incestuous. It's, uh, I think even the guy is open AI's lawyer used to be Elon Musk's lawyer for other shit. It's like everyone just, it's a giant.

Everybody's getting rich except for us off this trial. God damn, man. Yeah, I mean, it's just all. Tens of millions of dollars in lawyers' fees, I'm sure. Oh, yeah, those guys built by the second, not even hour. Yeah. That is, those are the, that's the real winner. No matter what happens in this case, the real winner are these law firms.

It is by far. And us to an extent, because we get entertainment. I was going to say, we have created content, which is all I want to do. So they're going to accuse Sam Altman of stealing fizzy lifting drinks. It's from Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. Okay. I haven't seen it. You lose.

Good day, sir. I thought you'd appreciate that much. Oh, yeah, yeah, as the fucking resident unc of the podcast, I will laugh at your old person's jokes. Hey, what's that art you got in the background? I like that with the goblins and the, um, what is that? Oh, let's see. We got, oh, that's a little, like, Kaiju crazy.

This tattoo artist that I go to in New York, actually highly recommend, his name is Kiku, and he does a lot of, like, little weird Kaiju Godzilla stuff all over the place. Nice. There's like Godzilla on the side over there. Oh, hell yeah. Cool.

Yeah. Yeah, this is my middle-aged man room where you could see my, like, guitars that I buy and things that I am. Yeah, you got a lot of guitars. To being younger. Oh man, I miss playing guitar. I like the turntable back there.

It looks like maybe it's become more of a storage unit, but it's okay. Yeah, I know. Just shit on it. Although there are, it's all like guitar pedals, so it's still kind of cool. It's all on theme. That's okay. I got a dusty turntable that I always am feeling guilty about. And every time I move, I have to move my hundreds of records with me and whatever.

That's, uh, not me. I got an iPod. That's the price we pay. Can you, before we go, I've always wondered, what is with your Twitter avatar with the, the poop bear? Charmin bear? Charmin bear, but with a mask and smoking a cigarette. So I think I'm just like resigned to this fucking scatological humor of my avatar. So literally there's nothing deep about it except I've been on Twitter since 2009, which is really sad.

and I remember when Sharman, I remember there was this period back in the day when all the companies were like, we got to be on Twitter. Oh yeah. And what do we do? We need to like have a personality. And so Charmin gets on and all they do is start talking,

tweeting about like taking a shit. And I thought that was incredible. I just thought it was very funny to have your corporate identity be that. The internet used to be so fun. It used to be so fun the internet. Yes. Yes.

It was very much a throwback to like a different touch. So all I did was just like take the suit. I mean, it's not particularly creative of my life. It was just like, I'm going to be Charmin Bear now. And now I'm resigned. Actually,

I got to send you an article. Literally, BuzzFeed wrote a piece on me when I joined the Times on whether or not the Times would make me get rid of my Charmin Bear avatar. Oh, wow. Wow. Wait, when did you join the Times? Fucking 2014.

Well, 12 years ago next month. That was that, prior to the Ben Smith days then? Yes, yeah. Ben was at a BuzzFeed and I almost worked for him actually. And then he joined, did he join like during pandemic or something like that? Yeah, yeah, long before Ben was there basically.

Yeah, no, he joined before that because I worked there. You were there, right? Yeah, I was. I was a branded content copywriter, man. Hell yeah. Oh, yeah. Probably did the Charmin shit tweets too. Probably, man.

Ten ways to wipe. Ten new created ways to wipe. your butt. That was the best job that I ever had. And I do feel bad. I talk about it sometimes that I feel so bad for some of the people who were just lifers there who probably were banking on their stock. And it's just, God, dude.

You saw the news literally as we were getting on, right? Yes. What, it's an AI pivoters. I thought that that was old. Jonah is stepping down as president. He's stepping down his CEO, by the way. He is now president of AI. Wow.

And this guy, Byron. Alan, who's, I guess, a comedian slash entrepreneur, has purchased a 50% stake in the company. And this guy's like a joker. Because he literally has also taken over the Stephen Colbert. It's super depressing, basically. Oh, man. Yeah, it's a bummer. Were you on the Silicon Valley Tech beat the entire time since 2014?

Yeah, man. I was a, I was a, you'll laugh, but I was a music journalist before in, like, 2007 to 2010 and then I was like there is no money in this and I'm and like I got an internship uh doing tech stuff in covering tech in 2010 and it was just super lucky because it was like the place I was at was like you should write about Facebook and Twitter and this was as they were pre-IPO and coming up and they didn't have anyone and I'd timing basically so it's since 2010 were you covering music in the Bay Area during that time with like the OCs and all the garage rock stuff? I am, I am a big OCs fan.

I was right. Yeah. And I was actually in Decatur, Georgia of working for a magazine called Pace Magazine, which still exists, but no longer in print. And then I was writing and then I was here writing for Performer magazine, which is like a musician's magazine. And then it's cool, though, because like my, the music editor at the time has let me still like picture stuff.

I get to do the occasional, like, feature for her. Oh, that's cool. That's actually fun, yeah. And then tech is my day job, which is tech is fun too, but like the music shit is my secret passion. You've probably seen some wild stuff since 2014, I imagine. I will send you my Instagram. It's all my losery. I'm still young photos of me, like, loaded at some random show in San Francisco.

We are still young. I see John Dwyer around L.A. sometimes, and there's something about him that in intimidates me and I'm always just like, just kidding. You guys, okay, so literally, uh, 20, 24, I flew down to see a TV on the radio show at the L. Ray, which was a great show, but I run into John at the show and I'm just, I'm like, also like half drunk. So I was like, blah. And he just like, he like gives me a hug and we take a selfie. He was like a sweetheart. You should say hello. He's a very sweet man. Is he a journalist? Wow. Sorry. No, he's the head of the OCs. Oh.

It's like this psychedelic, like, bear. Oh, I know the OCs. Okay, got it. But I didn't know that was the name of the guy. Damn, we were supposed to, we were supposed to be at that TV on the radio show. But we could have gone. It's a really good show. It's a really good show.

Sorry. My cool thing is Mark Everett from the Eels lives in my neighborhood. And I see him sometimes. That's cool. He is. Oh, man. He's so cool. I love his glasses.

I love his. He wears him. Every time I see him, he's wearing those glasses. Yeah. He's a cool guy. I feel sorry for our. any of our Gen Z audience who's just watching

elder, elder millennials are you guys talking about. Elder millennials talking about garage rock. They love it. We had this thing called Indie Slease,

okay? I think guitars are cool again. I don't know. That's what Charlie X. Hell yeah, they're cool again. Thanks to Geese and M.J.

Lenderman are putting elder millennials on their back. They're bringing rock back. I just got my geese tickets. I elbowed every Gen Z

out of the. of the way. I remember the pain of going to my local tower records and having to buy tickets when they went on sale and the ticket master girl at the kiosk had to, man, type it in. Yeah, those were the days. It was kind of nice and you got an actual physical ticket. I agree. Anyway, Mike Isaac, thank you so much for joining us.

We really appreciate you taking the time. I've been wanting to have you come on the show for the longest time. No, I'm sorry. It took so long. Thank you. Sorry for me, like, canceling and stuff. Thank you for my diva attitude. You got to have the right topic and the right time.

And then I'm glad the star is finally aligned. Where can people find you? I mean, we're going to tag you and stuff. But if you want to plug anything. Yeah, just, yeah, I guess I write, I read, I'm at the New York Times. I'm mostly on Twitter, honestly. Like, all of my, like, insane id comes out there. And it's way more fun because I don't get edited there.

So, but yeah, also the New York Times. And if you want to read the book, it's called Super Pump. but whatever. Super pumped. Yeah, very fun Twitter follow, recommend. Yeah, highly recommend. Thank you so much, man. This was so fun. Thanks, Mike. Thank you for having me.

Get some sleep. I will. Coming up on this week's episode of Ben and Emile show.com. Thanks very much. I'm blah. KFI on KFI on the sky. Which is the name. That's how the guy on KFI does the traffic report. And he always ends it with KFI in the sky.

And he's in a helicopter. Or like a small plane. Yeah, whatever it is. That's crazy. They got a guy just in a. helicopter. I know. I think they, I think it's like a, their, um, you would think they would just do it. Multiple radio stations usually use the one guy. Oh. Yeah. Kiss F.L. It's not a guy. Just for that one station, no. Um, stupid. Yeah, I know. Oh my God. Thank you two girlfriends.

Yeah. I get two Christmases, two birthdays now. Two Valentine's days. And every holiday. Now I get two girlfriends. And well, when we walk down the street, they, they, they, they, they, They hold my hands and they dangle me like the chain. Do you do a flip sometimes? Yeah, I do a little daisy chain. Are they very tall? Yeah, they're both about seven feet tall. Oh, cool.

Yeah. Wait, but why do you do two separate holidays with each if they both? Because I told them that I want double everything. Oh, okay. Yeah, double the kisses, double the fun. And they're like, mystery guy gets whatever he wants. Yeah, exactly. Remember when I helped you out of the parking lot?

Remember I whipped my leg and now I'm collecting disability for the rest of my life because of that? I don't mean to guilt you both, but I do want to. PlayStation. Like, how do you explain fault? Like, hey, you left the sink running and the sink is overflowed. That's your fault. Why is that funny? Because you wouldn't say that to a child? Sure, I would, because that's something that a child would be stupid enough to do, is leaving sink running and then it overflows. That's your fault. It's not my fault. Yours. Do you understand now? It was your responsibility to turn off the sink. And now I believe it. And now I believe, you because it is your fault.

Was the show idea, was the idea that I explain concepts to children? No. Oh, because I like that. I would do that. I would love that. The idea was that we would get words and try to explain them to children. But I like much more you chastising a child for doing something. A chess.

I'm just giving them an example. You left the faucet on. That is your fault. And I'm blaming you. And it was your responsibility. Give me another. Let me try.