The Ben and Emil Show - BAES 47: How tech is destroying us w/ Jules Terpak

Episode Date: May 9, 2024

This week we've got the brilliant  @julesterpak  on to talk about how the proliferation of technology, social media, and the internet at large are shaping society right under our oblivious noses. Is it too late to save the masses? Are we better off reverting to dumb phones? What is happening to our stupid little brains and who is going to step in and do something about it? Head to https://benandemilshow.com for this week's bonus episode :) __ Sign up for Moomoo and get free stocks! Click the link to get a "Mag 7" fractional share bundle for deposits or 1.5% Cash Reward match ($300 max) on transfers: https://j.moomoo.com/00MbzJ This episode (and every episode) was masterfully edited by Dillon Moore. Check him out at https://www.dillonmoore.co and @ dillonmoore on IG We're on instagram. @ benandemilshow @ bencahn @ emilderosa and @ dillonmoore Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Like a different channel. So like when you interviewed, is it Jonathan Haight? Yeah. That was here? Yes. Oh, cool. Mm-hmm. I just like, I'd change the setting.

Like, I'll take, I'd take down the paint. It's just because, like, I want it to, like, have, like. You want it to look unique to you? Yeah. Because, and, like, try to be associated in some way. Now I put different books on the shelves or whatever. Damn, look at you. you.

The wide should we punch in slightly? I don't know. What do you guys think? Does this look okay? Your discretion, I don't really do wide. I mean, how much can you punch in? All right. Yeah, let's try it.

I mean, if we could somehow not see Ben's bare feet. My fucking, oh God, God forbid I have socks. I mean, you can always just do. Yeah, there we go. Because I was actually maybe going to take off my socks. Why? Because there's hot, man. Not, not, it's like temperature hot.

I do also need to pee one more time. That's just how it is. Man, I don't act like you don't constantly have to pee too. Yeah, but I have my shoes on at least. I'm dead. It's a blurred content. What are we starting with? Do you think?

Whatever. um we can start i mean if you don't know the answer you don't have to uh i don't know where to start i watch your i mean i don't want to talk about it without talking yeah yeah we can't ruin but i watched the interview last night i like that guy i like him a lot too yeah um i want to talk about that and i feel like that's i'm going to repeat myself later but that's fine i feel like that's kind of what I'm um most interested in is like uh you know I feel like a big gap between me and Gen Z which feels very like odd to me because I don't feel like I don't feel like I'm as old as I feel but when I talk to a Gen Z person I'm like four right yes but it's like you know

you guys like growing up with it completely different environment and um yeah I feel like when I was 26, the gap between me and a 34-year-old wasn't as big as it is now. Yeah, I mean, even like, I feel like I was, I mean, we can talk, okay. But we both know, like, it's better when, like, I know how it is we can repeat ourselves. Like, because I'm at the oldest, I was born 1997. So it's like, um. Oh, you're like a pretty old. It's the oldest year of Gen Z.

Yeah. And it's like, um, so some of my friends, I would say sway more, like, they were offline mostly. I was just like, I had really strict parents. And like, I was just like isolated all the time. And I would just be like on the internet. Like they just like, it was like power play over me all the time. Like they were just like, they're like, they're like, you can only hang out with friends outside school once per month type of thing. And I would just like be. And I had a computer in my room and I would just be on the computer all the time. So you were like siloed off. Yeah. So I was like very interesting. I feel like compared to even like my, some of my friends who are. at the oldest of it.

Yeah. My parents were like, I mean, it wasn't, it was anything, but they were always like, what are you doing? Don't watch TV. Go hang out with people. Yeah, I don't know. My parents were weird. I don't know.

And they would make me like, I said this in the interview with him, but they would like, if I were hanging out with friends, I had to send a picture with their parents when I got there. And every few hours, I had to send like a picture of what I was doing, which I won't talk about because, like, it's weird because, like, I'm almost jealous of, like, older generations how they can talk about like their family life on the internet because like their parents like don't really tune into it but my parents are like both of our parents do i always feel a bit odd when i i can't like i feel like i can't bring them i know because they'll be like why do you say that

i'm like people don't they're not going to look into you like it's fun but like i'll get like a voice note from my mom being like i didn't dad and i'm like yeah i'm like okay i'll never mention you all right we ready we ready fredi sure uh yeah sure Which camera are we looking at? This. Oh, yeah, this one. Got it. Three on it.

But you get film of every angle, I'm pretty sure, right? Yeah. You want to switch it out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Hey, gang. Welcome to the Ben and Emile show. We got a special episode.

We're live in New York City. Well, not live. We're in New York City. This is pre-recorded. Two days before you're seeing this. Not the Tonight Show. So if our guest, Jules, says anything problematic, we are going to cut it out. Or we might leave it.

Or we might leave it. Just to... Teacher a lesson. High probability. Yeah. So is there anything we need to get rid of up top? No. We're doing our show today in our live show in New York.

Oh, wow. Yeah. Chicago sold out. There's nothing a plug unless you want to buy some merch or something. Are you guys nervous or what are this? No. Oh, okay. What?

Be honest. I mean, we did this venue last year as well last summer. and um and we've done it we've done it in l.A. in London it's very fun um we both get the post show or pre-show jitters oh yeah we're both just in there like those are inevitable like you can talk yourself out of like being nervous you're like I'm not nervous but those happen like right um and people want to like come back and hang out in the green room and it's like no Ben's like doing weird stuff and I'm I've got my like headphones in and what am I doing this weird do you have pre-show rituals.

To be honest. We don't really. We kind of just like, I pace around a lot. He paces and listens to hip-hop, right? Yeah. It feels good to do that. And Ben... I think I'm going to listen to the...

I've been jamming out to the William Tell overture. Oh, God. Oh, man. Oh, it's so good, though. I can't tell if that's real. No, it is. I was listening to it on the way over here. Okay.

Well, unfortunately, the show is tomorrow, but I wish it was coming out earlier. So people would know that this madman is backstage listening to William Tell, getting ready to come out. They would, like, sell their tickets. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now I want to come. But it's going to be good, and I hope it was, because by the time this comes out, it was yesterday. Yeah, we might get a lot of comments like, I'm unsubscribing, these guys blew it. I also might get assassinated.

I mean, you never know. I don't think they'd check for weapons at the door. We can only hope. Well, okay, so anyway, all that stuff. We have Jules Turpac on the show. Yeah. This is very exciting. I follow you on Twitter, and it's very, it's very informative for me, who I was telling you off, off camera, or on camera, but not in this episode, about how I feel a gap between me and Gen Z, which it feels very odd, because I feel like I'm not that much older than them, but sometimes I'm like, what are you guys even talking about?

You guys feel like aliens to me. And so your feed feels like a nice roadmap sometimes to what people are talking about and what they're dealing with. Yeah. Yeah, you feel kind of like the, because we'd like to ask a little bit of your background and who you are for our audience in case they don't know. Okay. Because for me, you kind of are the, sorry, but like the voice of-

Don't do it. Don't do it. No, don't do it. Okay, so you're not that actually. I know you're wrong. I don't do it. Okay, so why don't you put it into your own words, who you are and what your shit is? I would say I cover digital culture, which I think a lot of people, in the past, I think

journalism about like online life has been deemed like internet culture. And then when you think of tech coverage, you think of maybe like the business or like the hardware side of it. I feel like digital culture kind of bridges all that. And it's kind of more maybe even like the anthropology, psychology side of all things, just basically how we interact with these platforms. Long-winded answer. but yeah I grew up very online I had more strict parents I would say and like just being like

kind of isolated in my room I would just be on the internet a lot um even things like starting posting YouTube videos in like fifth sixth grade and then was very well you were posting videos in fifth and sixth grade yeah so like very young it kind of like started also posting online aside from just like consuming what year would that be like I know I can't do them what were you posting yeah um Well, then I actually had a, well, it was be, there would be music videos. There would be just talking to camera videos, like motivational type things. And then I also had.

As a sixth grader? Yeah, it was very weird. And then there would be, I also had like a Justin Bieber. Like, I'd be like, all the fans send in their letters. And every Saturday I'll read everyone's fan letters for Justin Bieber. Maybe he'll come across them. So you wanted Bieber fans to send the letters to you? Yeah.

So everything consolidated in one place. So Justin Bieber only had to watch one video. every week for all this way. That's very nice of you. Did you get any letters? I don't really remember, but I think so. But yeah, that was kind of the thing that I really wanted to interview him. I remember, I was like, it wasn't Skype back then. What was the other one, like the video platforms? Oh, was it Periscope? No, it was. No, the video conferencing. I don't know. Like one of those, it was just funny looking back at the video. I was like, I hope I can interview him. And it It wasn't Skype, it was something else, but...

Yeah, Uvoo? Was it Uvoo? No, I'm not gonna remember. That's fine. We'll figure out one day. Do you still want to interview Justin Bieber? I mean, I think that'd be interesting because he's like, he was the first, like, artist to blow up on YouTube in that way. I feel like, like, in terms of internet life, he has had some crazy things, even just

like him being under a microscope on the internet, like his relationship and everything. Like, I feel like that was kind of like the first person. to experience that. And he experienced it like so young too. Yeah. I think he would have interesting insight to all that stuff. But anyway, um, what kind of was whatever, but I would say it was like 2018, 2019. I came across Andrew Yang on like a Joe Rogan podcast actually. And it was kind of like this convergence of a lot of different interests of like growing up online, current work culture, tech, just like all these different things. UBI automation. And it was just like this moment of like, oh my God, like these things are all so fascinating to me. So I started posting.

about them on TikTok myself and my own takes on it all and it was kind of just like a snowball effect I would say and then you got to interview Andrew Yang yeah we co-host I co-host his podcast with him which was like a crazy full circle moment for a while how the hell did you do that um I would just was it the forward podcast or yeah wow so yeah I co-hosted with him for a while and it was like he saw some of my videos on Twitter because I would repost them there and he liked them um so yeah then that's which was like yeah crazy full circle the internet's like pretty wild can we just check the temperature on, is it okay to make fun of Angie Yang? It's, it's fine.

What do you want to make fun of them for? Yeah, let's hear it. Let's hear it. Let's hear it. No, no, but he. Love a guy was just like zero plan, zero real platform, uh, just, um, talking about like the middle. I'll, you know what I'll do?

I'm sorry. I'm going to stop. So that's where you're wrong, though. Yeah. Because it's not, I just want to say this first of all, because I feel like when people say like independent politics and we don't have to get into fault political. conversation but like they always want to move to like yeah centrism or yeah being in the middle that's like I hate when people do that because that's not like what independent politics is

like if someone leaves the Democratic Party for example like he did people are like oh they're going maybe more towards the right but to me in my head it's like independent is at like the top then it's like whatever party you just left and then it's what the party you were never in like that's still even below the party you you just left to me right people's mindsets go oh they're more towards the other side. I just don't look at it at all. And people, if you have it, if you are like independent in your politics, you should have very strong opinions. Like, it's not to be a bystander. I think I agree that like centriism and like saying you're in the middle and just like wanting to bring peace. That's like bystander energy, I would say. So I got no real beef with

Andrew Yang. I just wanted to pop off a couple real quick. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. I just went on around about that. But like I've been noticing that a lot online. He was, it was 2020 that he was. Yeah. He was the UBI. God, that was I felt like, oh, that was just last year. And he was like the internet's first candidate. I mean, AOC has been someone who really leveraged the internet, but he, like, was the first candidate to ever go, like,

podcast blew him up. Like, people who, like, in his life made fun of him, obviously, when he was like, I'm going to run for president. They're like, what? Yeah. He really laid the blueprint for Bobby Kennedy. Yeah. Bobby Kennedy's like, I'll just do every podcast.

Yeah, that's how it is now. It's just kind of the blueprint for it, but he was, yeah, the first. Except we still can't get a Biden podcast and I would love to see that man do an hour. He just did Howard Stern. Did he really? Yeah, I think, unless it was fake, I could swear that he just did Howard Stern. Most of this show has been seeing deep fakes and going. Is that real? No, no, it's mostly rage bait. I see rage bait and I take it. I just bite. I just, I'm a big dumb fish and I take that bait, that glowing worm on the hook. They really need long form debates because debates are just like, they're not

productive at all. Like, it's just like showy. Oh, yeah. I, I do see, I, okay, this is going to lead into what we're going to talk about, but I do want to see the three of them

debate. If not, yes, if not just for the entertainment or to have one younger. Ben's a big S&L fan. He hopes they do a Oh, yeah, I hope they, oh, man. No, he's not. Well, did you see RFK Jr. like a few hours ago he tweeted Trump and was like, I guess there's like a libertarian convention or something and he's like, let's debate there. I'm like, at the libertarian convention?

Because like I don't necessarily even need Biden to be involved. He's just, I feel like he's just not going to do it. So like even them two, that would be pretty crazy. It would be exhilarating between there is both of their silly voices. It would definitely be a thrill. And if it's going to be the dumbest election ever, we might as well get a thrill. Yeah, like let's make it entertaining. at least right now it's kind of boring yeah so yeah okay should we talk about what we actually came

here to talk about yeah it's all related but yeah um you've just had a lot of really interesting takes and perspectives on what the internet and social media and our smartphones are doing to not only everybody's brains but specifically the brains of younger people and how it's kind of like we're walking blind into this um pandemic of of of a mental health crisis that nobody seems to be at all prepared for yeah and that the social media companies are actively like trying to buttress themselves against in the way that like big tobacco got their asses handed to them it's like facebook at all are all they i mean i just pivoted they're like we're doing true Oh, man, a chewable, chewable cigarette?

And, like, everyone with their vapes, I don't think either of you do, but... Man, you just got, that's actually a brilliant idea. Like, can you imagine at the end of a cigarette you eat the filter? Well, they've had chewable tobacco for a... Yeah, that's not chew. That's like dip. You can't chew it and swallow it, like a vitamin. Yeah, yeah.

That would be great. Actually, no, that'd be disgusting. But, well, no, it changed in the sense that they couldn't advertise. on TV in I think it was relegated to print or something but um right and there's a clear label yeah and you know there's a clear age limit and you know it keeps going up and uh heavy taxes levied on everything um so yeah there's been a clear shift yeah and i just i guess i don't i don't know how to ask this but like a broad question is um how worried are you as because i value your perspective as a as a younger person who's come up on the internet and you've sort of managed to like many i'm sure

kind of break through that and break beyond it and have this um honest you ask the question yeah sorry i get it i get it it it's hot in here man i was i just should i just see you how long you can go once he's or should we just let her answer the fucking time? I'm high right now I got these chewables going okay I get it I get the question I would say it's

worrisome but it's complicated because there are so many good things that come from the internet like when it comes to different work culture changes when it comes to the information that's accessible like we it's weird because school wise our generation is supposedly the first

generation to be less educated like worst test scores than the past generation, but also it's like, I feel like we are kind of more education, educated in terms of our worldview in a lot of ways, because we have so much access. So I don't know, there's kind of these weird stats that are contradicting a bit. You guys are also like confronted with having a worldview in a way that I don't feel like I was when I was a, I don't know, well, yeah, freshman in high school. It wasn't, it didn't feel like I had to be thinking about ecological disaster. Like activism stuff. Yeah, or like my future.

That came way later. And I can't imagine being a teenager and people being like, the world is going to be unenactable. Well, yeah, like the ages, I feel like people get into activism has gotten younger and younger now. Right. You have that pressure from online life too of like, yeah, everyone's like, you know, sign these things, like post about this. And it's like, yeah, you have the pressure really young.

I feel like you're on the internet. So you should be talking about these things as well. So that's interesting. But, I mean, yeah, the mental health stats are really, really bad. I think a lot of the studies are self-reported, though. So it's not like we necessarily fully know if it's like actually clinically something like depression and anxiety. Our generation definitely is more comfortable using those terms than previous generations for sure, more comfortable seeking help for those things, talking to others about it. So there's that side of it too because, like, I mean, 7th through 9th grade, it's like, yeah, I had made accounts for.

for all the platforms, yeah, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Tumblr, Snapchat. But Tumblr was kind of like these few specific years where either of you on Tumblr. It was more... Passively. Yeah, pretty passively. Yeah, so that was kind of like my first platform. I feel like I could say maybe I was like addicted to. I don't know if like addicted is the word we should utilize.

I'm kind of still iffy about that, but definitely like depended on dopamine hit-wise. I would be on it during school, after school, just scrolling all the time. And it didn't have an algorithm, which was interesting. Because, like, we talk a lot about algorithms now and how addicting those are, but I'm like, I don't know. It's like, media is just so interesting and more information is just so interesting. We just, like, opt into that, obviously, having access to it. So I don't, I don't know. That's, like, a different conversation.

But, yeah, I was exposed to different topics like suicide and depression for the first time on Tumblr. And it was like, oh, I'm kind of feeling the same way as, like, these account, these people posting their feelings are feeling. They're saying they have, like, depression and anxiety on these things. So I was like, oh, I guess that's. what I have. And like you're exploring your emotions for the first time at that age and just like exploring different sides of life. And it gets to the point to where Tumblr really romanticized mental illness. It really romanticized things like for girls cutting yourself. I have a friend who talked about like her first week at NYU. There was like a group of like five of them or whatever.

And she was the only one in the room who like didn't have self harm scars and all those girls were like on Tumblr growing up. It was like it was a romanticized thing. And so I'm like is it a media mind is it truly clinically these things? But it's like if you believe it so deeply, you'll still take those actions of, yeah, cutting yourself of suicide potentially if you again believe these things so deeply. So it's like your mind is just so malleable at those ages, like 10 to 13. So I think those ages specifically, because yes, on social media right now, you're not supposed to get on until 13. Everyone gets on before then. And also parents post their kids online way before then because that's another side of the conversation. It's like, okay, maybe we

don't let kids on social media, but you're starting their digital footprints for them so early themselves. I'm like, it's kind of weird if you don't let them, like, see what's online about them. But, yeah, I think those ages specifically, like, under 13 are, like, where things need to be honed in more for sure. So you're, like, somewhat optimistic. You don't think it's all doom and gloom that we've allowed these things to be so ubiquitous in young people's lives. For sure. And I think, like, even design problems, like, even, I mean, as adults, we all feel there's an issue with, like, the design of social media where we all, like, can't work for more than, like, 15 minutes without, like, checking our phones. And we're also, like, checking all

these notifications. I think things like public metrics, like follower accounts, like counts, like kids should not have public metrics. Kids should, it's so weird how, I think, like, when phones first came about, like, push notifications. I don't know why we, like, we just opted in, like, push notifications are this thing that as soon as you get on an app, like you turn all of them on or like whatever it is. I'm like, that's so weird. Like, I've had my notifications off, all of them except calls for like four or five years now.

Same. Never looked back. I'm like, why were notifications so prioritized? Yeah. Yeah. And so it's like kids are getting, I think the stat is like 247 notifications a day that pop up on their phone.

So it's like constant focus breaks and that you're not opting into. It's just like you're trying to do something and your phone lights up. Because Snapchat and stuff is like their main messaging platform. yeah, even text, I have notifications off. I don't know why we put those on such a pedestal, like, with guns and everything. I mean, even, I'm 34, and I, uh, I have a very complicated relationship with my phone.

And it's, um, not from a standpoint of, I don't know, depression or it's just, I want my life back. Yeah. And I, you know, I take so many steps to, um, you know, I have a, I have app blockers on. So, like, from 9 to 5, I can't see Twitter, TikTok, Instagram, any of it. I often, like, I have a shortcut so that when I can turn it gray scale, so I can't even look at it. You find that works? I know a lot of people do. I've never tried it.

I mean, when you try to score Instagram like this? You're like, what am I looking at? This is like, I feel like a dog looking at the world. You know, that or it's super artsy. But just from that, oh, yeah, sometimes you're like looking at people's stories. You're like, when did I start following all these French film bakers? but um but yeah so i mean just as a 34 year old you know it it seems into everything the uh the idea of i you know i just want to hang out with people again without phones i want to experience things

i mean someone tweeted something remember the like eight hour beetles dock that came out no sorry on apple tv i feel so old no no i'm i'm just very out touch with that like most people i'm yeah apple tv uh it was um I forget the guy. Was it Guillermo del Termo? Guerrero del Turmo? Oh, geez. All right, let's take five. God, you okay?

Who is? Guillermo del Toro. Yeah, it was a Beatles documentary that came out on Apple TV. What about it? They gave him all this footage and they put together this eight hour doc and you're really just watching

the Beatles hang out for eight hours. Oh, I've heard. Yeah, I've heard that. But someone tweeted, you know, the most compelling thing about this is watching four guys hang out without phones for eight hours. It's so crazy.

just like the connectedness of you know people talking and doing other things than just staring at their phone that's the thing because right now it's like even if like kids are all hanging out together just because they have their phones are like all hanging out together on their phones oh but that's not just kids yeah that's same like adults family that's just how it is because it's just so captivating and yes maybe what's happening on your feed is more entertaining than Like, what's necessarily in your environment right now? But it's like we just don't even have the capacity. You just like sit and chill and not get those hits.

You don't need to be entertained all the time. And the way everything is programmed. So that's when I was talking about the laws and big tobacco and stuff. What gives, I have more of a pessimistic take, which is that I think that all of this stuff is at this point, it's more to the detriment of young minds than it is any kind. of positive. I feel like if there were ways to temper it and to regulate it more, I have no idea how that would look. It would skew the waiting of it for me, for sure. But yeah, I forgot where I was going with this. But like, for example, no, I know. I get it. Like, we're professionals. it's okay well because all right well anyway as I was saying as a 34 year old man who's like dealing with all that I cannot imagine like my you know my adolescent period being being filled with those same worries and and they don't know otherwise now because they're like iPad kids it's like at least I feel like I have a little sense of like elementary school and stuff like having like

okay, I can refer to like, this is what life is like without being plugged in 24-7. Right that's kind of worrisome that the kids have no, like, reference point of that. Sure. Right. I remember what I was going to say, but go ahead. And I just write it down. No, I got it in my head. And, but I am very curious what that looks like, and that's why I also, like, I follow a lot of stuff you're talking about.

And one of the examples was the bar mitzvah, or no, sweet 16 boys. God, yeah. Oh, these poor guys. That is so fascinating. It's, it really blew my mind because, well, so we also, Ben was in Australia. I had a friend, um, co-host with me and we were talking about, um, because we were looking at something and they were talking about how, you know, people in their 20s aren't really like going out and dancing as much as they used to and all that kind of thing. And I was like, that's so crazy. That was like so much of my, uh, early life. And people responded being like, I why it's not fun I don't want to go out and worry about being filmed literally that I don't want to worry about people you know posting me just like goofy dancing and I was like oh my god what a nightmare you can't just fucking go dance you can't just like go you can't just have a bad moment without someone not even a bad moment possibly living forever right and you know we were laughing about there was some kid who like got too high and his friends just like filmed the entire thing and I was like I've been there I've been

like a high school kid who smoked too much weed and and I'm just like I'm so happy that these moments don't live forever and like dissected and ridiculed and uh the sweet 16 kids just was like because I mean I went to bar mitzvahs and sweet 16s and it was just a fun thing you did in high school and you danced around with your friends and I could not believe that the entire internet was just uh ranking these kids and dissecting even more layers to that but let's get to your thing well real fast for those who don't know the sweet 16 thing was it was they had like a camera set up on on the dance floor of the sweet 16 party and there's this group of what like six or seven young boys you want me get the

rundown please you're the expert but i also like so you don't forget your point i want to get no i i well i was just going to say how um i don't think that there's any real hope for there to be meaningful regulation because our economy and like the stock market at large is so much of it hinges on the advertising, like meta is an advertising company and they're a two trillion dollar company. Them, Google, like Congressperson? All of the Congressperson? The Magnificent Seven, all these big stocks, well, minus like Tesla and stuff, but so much of it and people's retirement accounts, retirement accounts are now like because of dollar cost averaging into ETFs and stuff, and the weighting of these big stocks in those ETFs makes it so that if there

were any kind of meaningful legislation that were to significantly reduce screen time for young people and just everybody generally, it would damage these, and I'm not saying that this is like, I don't give a shit, but it would damage their profitability. It would damage all of their never-ending growth that they're supposed to be doing that Wall Street constantly buys up the stocks for, it would damage that so irreparably that it's not at all in the same conversation as like the tobacco bans. It would be. And because it's so much more nuanced because of the good sides of it too. Sure. Like tobacco, I don't know. It's like it's kind of more. I mean, cigarettes just rock. Yeah. I mean, you do look very well. You do look so cool. I disagree. I'm a

no no I were kidding of course but but yeah it's it's I just don't have any hope that anything could happen because the the big tech lobby is is such a powerful entity and everybody like I truly think that it would plunge us into a recession because everybody would sell off these big stocks because well they're not going to be making nearly as much money anymore and then come lay out and it's just it would be it were too far gone And I just have no hope that they'd be able to figure out alternative ways to make money. And just the reverberating effects, not only beyond, you know, advertising, it would dip into media. And it's just, that gives me existential dread.

Okay, yeah. We'll remember this week. Yes. We can't forget about that. No, no, because I want to keep going on this. But we won't forget about that one. But it's like, it's interesting that platforms, I mean, it was annoying how, like, Twitter is trying to push the. push the subscription and like subscription models are just like taking over our lives it's wild

there's like no one-time payments anymore but I'm not I'm these are not fully fleshed out thoughts but like yeah when we think of like the the models it's like at least if there it is subscription to social media then it is like the users do have more of a say than the advertisers do like if okay this is not fully fleshed out I'm just saying the principle of that like or if the model for some whatever reason does switch and things aren't attention economy time-based and it is more of just like value-based and it's like okay I'm choosing to give my money to these platforms yeah it's like user I guess this isn't fully flesh out but it's just like trying to ideate on possible ways things shift yeah but I feel like we've seen the subscription model

fail so hard already like with social media platforms specifically no not specifically with all these uh netflix it was like no ads ever uh you ever heard of that and then or hb omics we can't do it without ads so we uh you know the subscription model doesn't really work for us and it is you know it's just like growth growth growth we want to fight for everyone's attention we we need to keep them here so we can sell them more things and it's just like it seems like that is what works for everybody um i was surprised to see instagram do the 15 dollar a month Oh, copy Twitter. I was like, that was, I was like, what?

When did this happen? You can buy a verification. Oh, sure, yeah. I was like very surprised that they took that out of his book. Right. They were like, let's do the thing everyone is mocking him for, but I mean, they can get away with anything, I'm convinced at this point, Instagram. They just have such a hold over everyone's digital footprints.

Like, it's literally our generation's photo albums. It's also like LinkedIn for anyone in any kind of. Yeah. I mean, pretty much like most industries now, it's like people are using it as their, like, LinkedIn profile. Yeah. I look at my work. Because there's kind of people who have pointed out, like Sam Altman has pointed out, like, why this next generation doesn't have people like, yeah, Zuckerberg and Spiegel, like all these different, or like Bezos and kind of like these people who had success in their 20s and such, like that level. And I'm like, I just feel like, first of all, the start of the internet and then the start of like smartphones was such a gold mine.

And like, it was kind of winner-takes-all situation and that we don't necessarily, maybe with AI there will be a moment like that. I don't know because it's like these companies now are so big that like when it comes to AI, they'll be the winners. Oh, yeah, of course. So it's like I just don't feel like there's like an even opportunity for like our generation to necessarily have that realm of people. Right. Yeah, the moat. The tech industry and bought up every everyone remotely competitive. Yeah, it's been, it's their moats are so wide.

and the costs to even try to compete are so exceedingly prohibitive, especially since it's now going toward AI, which is, I mean, you need to buy tens of billions of dollars worth of invidia chips just to compete. Yep. So that means that it lays the ground for shysters and hucksters to come in and try to, that's where the real challenge comes in. You just got to spit a good game and convince these VCs to give you money.

Yeah. And I think we'll definitely get some more of those. Are we going to talk about 16-year-old? We need the sweet 16, okay. Let's pivot back. What's going on with those sweet 16-year-old? This was actually in New York. You guys should have them on.

Yeah, if we can get them on tonight or tomorrow's show, that would be fantastic. So, yeah, these guys went to a sweet 16. There was like six or seven of them in this video, and they didn't post the video on TikTok. They were dancing to like that new Kanye West Playboy Carty song, whatever, straight to camera. So we have to cancel these kids, obviously. Yeah, of course. but it was a media company that was covered like at the birthday party and like the sweet 16 was this I don't know but like the media company they were saying because I was watching like interviews of

them that they did like the one guy was named like TikTok Tom he was like 40 he needs 40s or 50s and he was like taking these videos and he posted on TikTok and this video got like 50 million plus views probably closer to 60 million now and that was whatever okay it went viral as you know tons of videos do you on TikTok every day. If there's any 16-year-olds out there, stay away from TikTok, Tom. Yes. It is trouble. Anyone who's like over 35 and they have a TikTok?

They're like, yeah, come to my camera. Stay away. But a month later, yeah, all these videos start resurfacing on TikTok of people, whether it's just like green screen videos of psycho-analyzing the dynamics of this friend group and giving them social rankings. So there was like, again, I don't know, six or seven of them. So ranking them one through six, seven. And reasonings why, which is just like, why.

Just based off their dancing. Yeah, and it was like... This guy's the alpha of the group. Yeah, like... And there was, like, the names were, like, yeah, blue tie was typically ranked number one. Then there was Turkish Quondale Dingle was who was... It would be one and two. And then there was like white shirt kid and then like, I don't know, like rosy cheeks.

Like all these... Yeah, rosy cheeks was catching. Like, he maybe had a little rosat shows. Yeah, like, let the kid live. Leave him alone. But so, yeah, this is just going, it's going crazy viral. And people are just like, yeah, wondering, how are their parents reacting? How are these teachers?

Like, there are thousands of videos. All these videos are getting like tens of millions of views. And they're just everyone is just like in the comments psychoanalyzing these kids. They're just normal like 15 and 16 year olds. And people are like, yeah, how are their parents reacting? How are teachers reacting? They're friends? Are they getting bullied?

Are people like, oh, this is like. cool like what is the dynamic and it's even gone as far because kind of um i mean this is an important part to it but like the guy who's getting ranked number one so everyone else is kind of getting shamed in other ways everyone was kind of putting him on a pedestal what was he doing that earned him the spot of number one everyone was kind of watching him they were taking his lead he was like leading the dance moves so he was cool he did have a certain swagger yeah the vibe Yeah, whatever. My money would be on Turkish Kondale Dingle because I love that name.

Well, now it's like, yeah, it's them back and forth. Whitechurch kid was a dark horse. I had him. Yeah. And they're the ones who are kind of, I hate the word clout, but like are running with this and getting like the following. Because the other people, I'm sure parents are like, we don't want you to post about this of all these guys. Like they're probably like, um, how are we supposed to handle this? But these two guys, I guess their parents were fine with it.

They decided to go on streams that do all these different things. they ran with it. They even have brand deals. This was already like three weeks ago. I had a brand deal with like Mark Jacobs already. It's crazy. But even like a brand deal with Mark Jacobs? Yeah.

Doing what? Turkish Kondale Dingle. Am I saying it right? They were like wearing Mark Jacobs like a shirt and purse. And they, I don't know. They were like pretending they were going back to a party. But the people are going even as far as like I remember on my feed recently. I saw people looking at Turkish Kwandale Dingle.

I think his name is Michael, his parents' Facebooks, and they were, like, extracting pictures from his parents' Facebooks and, like, putting family photos and, like, these TikToks were also getting millions of views. It's just, like, what is going on? This is just, like, a normal family, and, like, within three weeks. Like, now everything is, like, blowing up on TikTok and just people, like, are sees. Jesus Christ. So they're taking it well, which is interesting because everyone's, like, how are you guys taking it well? because again most of them except like the blue tie kid were mostly getting like made fun of like they were just like oh my god this person is like people aren't paying attention to him he's left out like they don't want to be around it and like all these different things for the other guys um but they're at least those two and there was one other kid i think the rosy cheeks kid came on ticot too and his video went viral he seemed to be taking it well the other guys have seemed to be very quiet about it i hope they're good there's videos of like kids mocking them at school And like, I don't know, there's just all these weird nuances that I've been seeing on my free page.

That's really surprising to me because I feel like the the young iPad generation, younger kids, more than any other generation, is a lot more sensitive to topics like bullying. And I feel like they're a lot more cognizant of being kind to others. And yet at the same time, they seem to engage in bullying more than anyone ever, especially online. And it's just, it's this weird. experience he's got a lot of 16 year olds who bully me i do get i do get bullied um fuck i mean just look at me jesus correct he one time scrolled through his his hidden messages and it was just like you big goofy motherfucker like all this i did actually i i was going to talk about this in the in the bonus episode but um i hit a home run in my softball league uh like last week and i was thank you very

much as I was rounding as I was rounding third it was a big deal for me as I was round because I struck out the first at bat struck out looking in slow pitch softball is is devastating especially because the ump just went oh I was like really and he said out but I was rounding third really I was taking it wide and I was just full on sprinting and there's not a whole lot of room to turn wide there because the dugouts right there So I kind of had to like adjust myself and I looked like a shitty baby horse that had just been born. It's on video. Oh yeah.

Yeah, it's totally on video because I posted it. And I got dozens of DMs just saying like goofy app running and, you know, you look like how I imagine SpongeBob runs or something. No. And I mean, they're all in jest, but it was really, it was really funny. But yeah, people are, I think especially when you are a, when you. when you're not just a normal person and you've got at least a significant following, there's like a there's like a barrier between

them and you and they... Well, you're no longer like a real person to them. Yeah, you're a meme. You're like an apparition. Yeah. It's kind of, you're an object for them to levy. Yeah. Character.

Yeah. And the same goes for just total strangers. And man, I just on the topic of, of filming people publicly, that's like my biggest even when a person is being really really bad or like fucked up I still I just don't like it

even the opposite if it's like a really wholesome moment it's like it's not your right to make like eternal is eternalize the word to make something for it no yeah it's oh yeah it is it is eternal yeah to like yeah make that a thing forever on the internet and like those videos of like wholesome moments of couples in the park that just go viral

on TikTok because someone's recording from a third person point of view. It's like, that's not your moment to share. Although did you see that couple having sex under the blanket here in New York? No. Yeah. Maybe there's some nuance to this because that was... That one was fucking... It was this couple

and they're just under a blanket and I mean, you don't know if they're having sex but they're definitely moving around a lot under there and there are children nearby. Yeah, that was wild. Though I did see someone recently, like they saw someone it might have been in New York City going by on a scooter. It was a couple and like the guy was like holding the girl's butt jeans or whatever.

And instead of posting the picture, they drew it out and just like did the tweet to it. And someone quote to it is like, this is how we should like tell those types of stories online. Now people just like drawing them out instead of like, I was like it's actually pretty funny. Use your imagination. Yeah. Because yeah, I mean, like you were saying, we've all had our bad moments. I personally never have bad moments, especially in public. Like, I've never cried in public or anything like that.

There were quite a few on this episode. Yeah, actually, yeah, that's true. That is true. I don't really remember that there being any bad moments for me on this episode. But yeah, you were talking to Jonathan Haight. I think you posted it yesterday. Your interview with him, his book, is it the anxious generation? Yes.

Talking about. Yeah, it's going wild during that. And, yeah, I guess I just didn't really have a full grasp on what it would look like to grow up like that. And you were, I think you were mentioning, uh, kind of that people followed each other on Twitter and would kind of like post, um, oh yeah, I got like Twitter tweets at people. And, and that kind of stuff, you know, plus the Sweet 16 stuff, it just like makes my skin crawl as someone who was, I mean, I don't think anyone is really self-assured or super confident when they're a teenager. And so, you know, when you're going through that period and then feeling like people are mad at

me online or I just could not but so yeah I don't know if it is like the generation that's bullying people less because it feels like maybe they just have these new ways that can well people are desensitized too of like you you when you're online you don't see someone's reaction like if you saying something so cruel to them you can like see their eyes swell up and everything's like you don't see that so it's like this desensitized thing and when our lot with kids are mostly online I think like Jonathan Hight was saying they're on like leisurely the kids are average nine hours a day like a few years ago that was like six hours it's already up to nine hours so it's like if most of your time spent online and that's again like your interaction with

people that that obviously spills over into real life physical world life um but yeah on Twitter even and now it's moved to Instagram because a lot of stuff that used to be on Twitter moved to Instagram because like people are getting on that later and later um there would be like high school confession pages where someone would run in an anonymous account and you would like DM then like someone's T someone's drama and they would like post it and now I guess there's like are still going on but like on Instagram um yeah in high school middle school which I'm like that's wild also it's very trusting of you don't know who's behind this account and you're like DMing them stuff but I remember do you remember post secret no there there was this it was a

I guess you could call it an art project this guy had a PO box and people would write their own secrets on a postcard and mail them to him and he would just scan it, take a picture of it, and put it up. And there were some wild secrets that people would share. But it's not like spilling other people's tea. God, I fucking hate that.

Just that turn of phrase. Jonathan Haidt, too. So, like, his conversation is that, yeah, especially in America, talking about laws. To your point, it feels almost like too far gone and we're really big on, like, freedom and like these things.

Right. Don't touch my fucking phone. I mean, China has made big moves. in terms of, like, the app, TikTok, for example, is, well, they call it Doyen in their country, like, is not accessible to kids between 10 p.m. and 6 a.m. Like, you go on the app, it's completely turned off. It has, like, opening, closing hours. You can't spend more than 40. I love that. Yeah. I'm, honestly, the CCP is strong. I, yeah, I'm like, I'm kind of not anti these things. And then, like, they can't, they get kicked off 40 minutes per day on TikTok. It's not accessible after 40 minutes. So you know that's the amount. You can pick throughout the day when you want to go on.

But, like, again, these are for kids, I think under 16. Anyway, but Jonathan Haidt is trying to make them norms among parents. He knows that, yeah, some kids already have their smartphones young. He's saying, like, kind of this next wave of parents, even if you have older kids that got their phones early, trying to delay smartphones until high school, delay social media until age 16, which I don't necessarily agree with because that causes weird social dynamics in high school. Wait, delay smartphones till 14, so beginning of high school. delay social media till 16, but it kind of contradicts his point of when he talk, well, I'll say all four first, but then I'll get back to that. So those two things, no phones in school. Like they can, a lot of people bring up, you know, school shootings and everything in that case. They have to be like put away, like just not visible. And then parents are overprotecting in the real world, you know, like the rise of the term stranger danger in the 90s and like all these different things of like, yeah, surveillance of your kids via location sharing. He's like lift some of those protections. let your kids go out and play explore let them be a little dangerous test the waters stop being so overprotective in the physical world right i think he was saying that like kids are overprotected

in the real world and underprotected in the digital world yeah and uh and so they like in the sweet 16 thing they may know how to handle something like that but they don't know how to handle like real world interactions and like conflict and stuff um it's also really interesting i can't remember what country it was. They're talking about their study with banning phones. Norway. Norway. Just banning them all together. No, no, banning them from school. I'm sorry. Oh, got it. I also just find it shocking when people are like, should we think about that in

America? When we were kids, it's like if they saw your phone and... Oh, they would take it. Yeah. Until the end of class. They're allowed to have their fucking phones. And they're allowed to fully have them out and be on them. So I was like, I was like, wait, I didn't even know that was a, I cannot believe that it's even allowed. And, you know, we were talking about how our attention span has depleted. And it's like, yeah, I imagine if, you know, kids can't even go a full class without looking at it. It's just, I don't even know how. And you're

talking about it's the least or a less educated generation. Like test score wise, all that stuff. It's like, yeah. I mean, I feel dumber. My, my brain has atrophied. And same. It's, I can feel it when, uh, you know, I try to read as much as I can, but it's like with every year I can feel it just, you get like tired too. Like, yeah, it's almost like your brain gets really tired. If you like, you're trying to focus on like a book for like a certain amount of time. I'm like, oh my God, why am I tired? I can also just feel a pull because it's, this is just like cheap, easy. It feels good. And I think, uh, Jonathan Haight was talking about the like inability for people to just be bored yeah and uh even i remember you know being a bit

it was like a week or two ago i had a friday night where i was just like oh i've got like nothing planned for the first time and then i was like what should i do like i don't yeah wow what a loser and it's sound like red cheeks it's become it's become this thing where like my mind needs to be occupied at all yes at all times and and something like reading doesn't quite give me the stimulation I'm looking for that like cheap fast food just like there was like one time where my car I was like had to drive to the beach it was like a five hour drive and like my AC wasn't working so like I had had had the windows down the whole time and like it was so like I'm on the highway it's so windy so I was like I'm not even going to listen to

anything I'm just going to drive for these five hours and just like I've never done it like typically yeah you always have like podcast music whatever on and yeah I was like I was like I don't think I've just, like, sat in silence like this for five hours. I can't think of a time. I'm like, will this also be, like, the last time? I'm like, when do you do this anymore? But I had, like, some of the most, like, creative ideas on that drive. I was, like, remembering things that, like, were, like, I mean, some, like, some thoughts

were maybe, like, hard to be reflective on, but, like, stuff that I never really, uh, contemplated or thought back to and just, like, kind of, like, thinking about different light stuff, like, was, like, going through, like, these learnings in my head. I'm like, oh, so this is like, if you can just sit, like, like, by yourself and I tried meditating like the other month for the first time. And it was like this crazy thing of like it hasn't happened to me since. But it was like my first time meditating. And like literally felt like as soon as I closed my eyes like a minute in and felt like things were like washing away. And it's like it's almost like I was given that experience to be like,

oh, this is what's possible because I haven't experienced it since. But I'm like even everyone who meditates it sounds so woo woo sometimes. But I'm like, yeah, just to like let yourself sit. I hate the word meditate sounds so intimidating. and just sit and close your eyes and just like blank try to have no thoughts it's like we when do we have that opportunity today like try to create that for yourself and you can have like yeah really creative ideas reflect better it's like yeah we just don't give ourselves that opportunity i started meditating maybe in my mid 20s and i and i really enjoy it and that's another thing where i can feel it in the past couple years where it sometimes feels like torture and i'll be

like I'll be like just do 10 minutes 10 minutes and it'll feel like in eternity and I'm like all I want to do is be still and yeah and you know it's the same thing with like creativity and it does it feels like I'm having something robbed of me where even when I'm like okay I'm setting aside this time to write and it's like okay but I'm also just being distracted by everything and sometimes it feels like the only time I actually have ideas coming into my head is when I lay down to go to sleep because I'm like, oh, wow, I'm not, I'm trying to go to sleep right now, but my brain's like, no, you do have ideas. You don't let yourself fucking.

I've been doing guided these, I've been, there's these guided meditations on YouTube. It's Turkish Kondale Dingles. I can't, I can't, actually, I can't do, I can't do meditation. He's going to sue us for using his likeness. Um, I actually went to a transcendental meditation, um, what do you call it? Like, uh, retreat? No, it was like the intro thing to it here in New York. And I get really, huh?

David Lynch? What about him? Oh, the David Lynch Foundation is like a big, he's big into TM. No, it wasn't. It was, uh, it was like the official TM thing. And it was just very funny and ironic to me that, uh, they, they had like a, an infographic of the human brain and brain waves and stuff and that shit makes me queasy so i had to leave and i just was like wow i can't even handle the thinking about the human brain intro thing on

fucking meditation i'm fucked but yeah and every time i try it it's it's the same thing which is why i if i as an adult man struggle i just can't imagine how hard it is for children whose attention spans are right i think that's what i can come exponentially shorter they weren't even given a chance is what it's I can feel what it's done to me and I have such an issue with it and you already had the benefit of growing up

without it right and I mean we should talk about the humane AI pin for a little bit too because like it's another it's an interesting thing that we're kind of we're relying on tech to save us from the tech basically and um you know

obviously from the stuff I'm doing to my phone and everything. I've tried a bunch of things to just be less with the phone. And I remember I tried getting in Apple Watch. Yeah. I've never owned one. How was that? I loved it at first. At first. Yeah. I did it for about like eight months. And at first I was like, it's cool. You know, I exercise a lot. And I was like, I like the exercise tracking stuff. But the whole thing was, you know, I was like, I'll get the one where you attach it to your cell plan. and I can leave the house without my phone. I'll get my messages and it was awful.

Wait, why? Because I keep my phone on Do Not Disturb and it just means that like every time, because I used to just wear a watch, a digital watch. And every time I wanted to check the thing, I'd see the little red dot, even though it was on Do Not Disturb, it gave you a little red dot that said like, you have notifications. And it's like, I'm obviously going to check them and then you're looking. And it was just, I was like, I hate this.

I'm even more attached to it. So after a couple months of realizing like it wasn't working, I just took it off and went back to the digital watch, which is way better because so often I realize I pull out my phone just because I want to know what the time is. And so if I have a watch on, I can be like, okay, I don't need to look at my phone. But the humane AI pin seems like their entire aim is to get you off the phone and out into the world without it. I mean, I think we're at a weird place with hardware. I think it's boring. Like smartphones have kind of been the same form factor. the rectangular look for the past decade, it was like, and so I think we're kind of entering this

phase where people are like, okay, what's next? We can't add just like another camera to the iPhone or whatever it is. Right. And then we have, of course, like VR, AR stuff that's coming out. And some people are like, like, we kind of know where that leads to. And so people are like, okay, can we create other options? And so I think there's like, yeah, the humane AI pin, Rabbit R1, the humane eye pin is a pin that goes on here. It's just basically talking to AI. what is the rabbit do you can you explain i don't know i think they're they're trying to go into a similar realm except it has like a larger screen on it but it's again it's like that just like a conversational relationship with ai but it has less sold to me because it is kind of just focused on

innovation and like creating a new type of hardware while humane yeah from the start their whole thing was like they're they were on like emron who's the one of the founders was on the original iPhone team and his wife um was also like on the initial teams for like the ipad and everything like that. So, like, they, first of all, we're a part of building that, and then they, you know, look around and they're like, look, like, these are amazing devices, but we can't help but notice that, like, something is off and, like, how can we try to dabble with solutions? Obviously, the humane AI pin has been getting, like, dogged on. It's $700. There's a $24 subscription. You have to pay $11 per month also for title. And, like, which, and it's not, it's not necessarily,

like, the hardware is beautiful, everything, but it's like the AI capability. and they utilize different companies. They utilize chat GPT, well, GPT4. They utilize Gemini from Google. Like, the AI capabilities just aren't trustworthy enough yet. There's a lot of hallucinations. And but people are saying like, yeah, it could be that relationship. I saw a TikTok recently where these teenagers, they looked like maybe 14, 15, all went out to dinner

together and they all put their phones in a pile on the table. Like, let's genuinely set these aside. Like, there's obviously, like you're talking about this. Oh, I just did that in, I think I might have said it on this show. But a bunch of me and my friends, it was like 20 of us. After a wedding, we all went to Mallorca. And we would have these big group dinners. And when we would have the dinners, we would take like 20 phones and put them in a pile.

Yeah, I love that. Like, oh my God, 20 people just talking to each other. Wow. It's incredible. But it's like there's some people. There was this trend on TikTok where people were getting flip phones like in college. Like, okay, let's just take our flip phones out for the same thing. Not to be checking our phones all the time.

But it's like, that's taking steps back with tech. And like there are certain things like search capabilities. And, like, yeah, like, not right now, but potentially AI capabilities that can, like, consolidate searches more. Like, when you're talking about Google and everything, like, all that stuff is really useful when you're, like, going out into the world or when you don't necessarily want your phone. So that, like, flip phones are kind of step back in that way. So I think people are just trying to create ways to take, like, of course there's going to be tradeoffs, but trying to create another layer of, like, yeah, you have your laptop and computer, you have your smartphone. And then you have like maybe something else that is trying to kind of like sway you towards the physical world more. Because the phones are still more, I feel like, digital world focused.

Sure. So something that it does feel more intuitive in that way. I do like that until there is a viable solution and a step forward beyond what the current iteration of hardware is, it is comforting to me to know that there are a lot of young people who are choosing to opt out. and are going back to flip phones because we've talked about it before where the internet used to be a place that you would actively log on to and then log off from it was a place it was like a desktop computer at your house yeah we talked about it and it like it lit up so many things in my brain i was like yes that's i now can't leave the place and it fucking drives me nuts i've but now just by virtue of what we do for a living even just this podcast i can't imagine imagine not having access at all times just because I feel like I need to. Like if I'm checking whatever YouTube stuff or... Feedback. Yeah. Yeah. Feedback from our editor and all that stuff. And it's just, yeah, it's really depressing. So I guess with us and with the kids, it all comes down to, well, for the kids,

it's their parents and they've got to be the ones. They're the, they're the, they're the, they're the, the final, uh, they're the last stop. Yeah, you get it. We get it. I'm normally so articulate is the problem. Um, but even then, like if I were to have a child, I would be incredibly protective over them digitally. I would not, they would have a flip phone. That's all they get until they're like 18. And then by then I will have scared them enough about, well, not scared, but just hopefully educated them enough on the positives and negatives of social media and leave it up to them at that point

whether or not they want to do it. But beyond that, it's like, you can't control what other parents are doing. So they might go over to their friend's house and be exposed to all the shit that you absolutely don't want them to have anything to do it. Right. That's kind of the problem. If everyone's not opting in, you're kind of left in the dust. And you're socially ostracized. I have done periods of not having Instagram or whatever and uh and socials you just kind of miss out on things and people are like oh why didn't you come to whatever he posted it on close friends and I'm like because I don't have fucking Instagram right now and so yeah your life kind of uh people aren't going

to adjust to your weird preferences they're gonna if they're inviting everyone on close friends they're not going to be like oh I should make sure to text the meal yeah that is a weird thing that these are becoming like the messaging platforms too because at first it's like you had i message that was kind of separate now it's like to your point it's like also where people are communicating um more privately as well which is weird but so anyway where do you think like what do you think the next few years looks like what do you where do you think uh do you think there's going to be any kind of meaningful legislation pushed forward because we're starting to see studies we're starting to see with the attention spans dropping with

um uh depression and anxiety just skyrocketing with you young people, do you think that there's going to be anything done to these companies? Or do you think it's just going to ultimately fall on the shoulders of the parents? Well, I do always kind of want to say, I kind of battle with this. It's like, I don't consider myself like a futurist type, like in terms of predicting like what's going to happen. I'm kind like more like to dissect the current landscape. But I mean, there's a clear conversation, there's a clear need, there's a clear desire. And especially like as our generation is now, like, having kids and everything like, I think it's going to be because we know the nuances of it.

I think it will just continue to grow and be a conversation. When it comes to AI stuff, like we kind of have no option but to push forms of regulation there. Maybe I don't know how social media, the media landscape in general is going to, I feel like it's kind of a wildcard area over the next few years with AI because it's like, do we just, yeah, miss the social media regulation wave and then like something else is completely. And like we didn't even necessarily need to regulate it because the landscape looks so different and like maybe we just get ahead on the AI stuff. Not ahead. We're already kind of a little bit behind, but like not by any means as behind as we are with social media. But like I think AI regulation is like definitely at the forefront

and big conversations are happening there, especially in regards to protecting people's identities and everything like that. So I think that's kind of might be the situation of like maybe the wave is missed on social media and it's like this, but we do protections with AI stuff that kind of like trickles into whatever social media becomes. I'm not really sure on that, to be honest. But I think everyone, like the pendulum always swings and there's like this clear desire from people that like something needs to change. And I trust people to a degree that like I don't think we're going to take steps back.

But I think like we will definitely like shift our relationship. But also definitely what's going to happen is probably a break off in society of people who go all in with tech. and then people who more similarly to Amish are deciding they don't I don't know where their relationship with tech will end I don't know what I'm going to be a part of yet like will it end at smartphones and they just like always keep smartphones um but there's definitely going to be like a societal break well that was I had that I had that thought with uh when people were reviewing the apple glasses the vision pro because I think Casey nice that made a great point of like you know

this is this is the worst it's ever going to be and it's going to their aim is to get to a point where you know i think the humane AI pin and the rabbit whatever that's not where it's going to go it's going to go with them just like integrating these things into your life so you're not holding a phone anymore you're just kind of you have a small device and you're looking around and yeah you're living in uh you're living in the tech and that was when i was like oh man i there's going to be a split. I don't want that. That's not, that doesn't seem good to me. That doesn't seem fun to me. That seems miserable. And so I am so curious what happens when people are like, no, that you guys have fun in that world. We'll be over here doing. Yeah. Like, well, I feel like a city

would have to be kind of only people who want to go all in. Yeah. And then more rural areas, I feel like are, I don't, I don't know where it breaks off. But like, I wonder. how so like to what degree people choose each one like how socially ostracized the people who don't decide to go forward with tech will be or if it will be like um more of a decent percent obviously omish are very like omish men andites very socially ostracized from like our society but like yeah that'll be yeah i think one thing's for sure we should start being nicer to china because uh they're keeping those kids off the video games oh man off the apps you seen the videos of those little chinese kids playing basketball they do the synchronized basketball and kindergarten

thing. Oh, man. Oh, we're done. Those kids grow up, surround us. They're going to be just taken over the NBA. And you know we're friends with the CCP and we want to say You want to say what?

Cheeschen Ping is a big fan of the show. Shout out. Shout out to Xi Jinping. I do, like the, it makes me think of the, as I'm sure you've seen on Twitter, the tech accelerationist guys. Yeah, you roll your eyes.

I don't, that was kind of maybe dramatic. I'm not really keeping up with them that much. I just know they're like, yeah, no bounds. Like let's go. Like Mark Andreson. Yeah. And Beth Jzos guy. I think that they're mainly focused on compute power and AI and where that's all going to take us. I don't think that there is concerned about like hardware or even thinking about it. It's just let's see how far we can go and we will fix whatever we break as we. Yeah, Mark Andreessen fully thinks that if you, if there's any regulation around tech you are you're like killing people because yeah you're stifling innovation that would save people and so i would love to have him on the show

yeah i've oh man he just someone at the american prospect did a profile on him because he got invited to his book club and he just started talking to mark andreson and he said um he brought up people in the midwest and saying what and poor people and he said said, you know, I'm just glad there's video games and OxyContin to keep those people occupied. Mm-hmm. So. Why? Because otherwise, what would happen?

I don't know. You'd have to ask Mark and Drescent. I mean, the man's head is truly, we've talked about it. His head is shaped like an egg, an actual, full-on, pointed at the top, perfectly egg-shaped. Yeah, I've, I used to really like all his interviews lately. They seem a little more, like, the past two years more off the wall, a lot harder to follow in terms of like, I don't know, necessarily. that I'm like aligned with you on these things by any means like he yeah there's something a little bit of a shift the past two years we'll see but well I guess is this a good spot to wrap up

what's our what are we at time wise oh we can keep or yeah whatever you else want to do what else did we was there let's see what else do we have here oh we we didn't talk about the ticot ban potentially happening yeah we talked about um rules and regulations and how far that potentially will go and how it's probably not going to amount to anything. I really don't think it'll amount to anything. What's your guys vote, ban or not ban? So when this was first being talked about,

I was like in a joking way like ban it because, you know, like the China stuff, it's like no one's regulating this. Like I hate that it's consuming everyone. And so I was like, good, fucking ban. But everybody would just go. but now that it's uh now that it feels very clearly not feels uh lawmakers mitt romney so many people have come out and just said you know we need to get rid of this thing it's showing people

pro-palistine things and it's warping kids brains and stuff like that and you know they only really got the political will to do it after um the israel palestine stuff so yeah at this point i'm like get the fuck out of here you are it's like such a clear motivation yeah so way against

it okay you I fully disagree I don't think it has anything to do with Israel Palestine because they've been talking about it well before that plus the Israel Palestine stuff is prolific elsewhere on social media on Instagram on Twitter on Facebook

I don't think that it's something where they're like, oh, man, we got to stop these kids. What about the lawmakers who explicitly said it? That's one part of it. I think they're concerned. But that's where they're getting a lot of the votes, is they're being able to drum up this, like, this foreign policy thing. And that's where you can always get, like, a huge majority of lawmakers to come together on things. Sure. I think that it's, jingoist bullshit.

I think that it's just very simplistic to pin it all on the Palestine conflict as a reason. you something. Why do I not believe them? There are some lawmakers saying that. It doesn't mean that that's truly what they're, well, we got to stop these kids. If they were that serious, they would have banned it a while ago. They wouldn't advocate for the sale of TikTok, for example. Because the sale of TikTok would still mean that they could freely post about this stuff and not have there be any consequence. They're concerned about the CCP having access to Americans' data. And they're concerned about about all before that, but they couldn't get any action on it.

Right. And then all of a sudden they have the political will to do it. I just disagree. I don't think that that's... What is your stance on the TikTok plan? I think both of you are right. I think the, so the current situation was definitely fast forward motivated by TikTok being at the helm of that conversation.

I think it's completely right in terms of, okay, so TikTok changed my life, right? Like, that's where I initially grew. I've been big for us, too. Yeah, it's like, I respect the platform in so many ways. It's a genius platform, aside from the algorithm, they implemented features, like the ability to download other people's videos. That was created by TikTok. Even Vine, it was like you were only able to download your own videos.

Like, little, all these little nuances of their design are just like genius, right? And like the discovery potential on there, yes, there are like thousands, hundreds of thousands, potentially millions of individuals and small businesses that have really benefited from TikTok. That being said, I don't agree. Well, it's not that I don't agree with the current bill. I do, but I do think it's messy First Amendment-wise because it is like, so it's a national security threat, but it is kind of like this focus on content a little bit. I think it will probably get shut down in courts amendment-wise.

But ultimately, I think a sale is kind of like China is not going to sell the algorithm them if they sell TikTok because it's like a protected technology under the country, even if they get billions for that technology, I don't really think it's worth it in the long run when it comes to how powerful like the future of AI is going to be like handing that type of technology over to obviously your most competitive country. It doesn't make sense. So I think regardless, like the sale is just going to be kind of a dud situation. Also, nobody can afford it. I, so when it comes to data, yes, I agree. Okay, like China should not have Americans data. It is that I agree with people in the way that, like, still data from all these U.S. social media platforms end up getting sold to China, like, within the markets.

But I ultimately, the most straightforward way of why there should be a TikTok ban is trade reciprocity. The fact that China has a great firewall, we cannot play the game in their country when it comes to social media. They can play here, the game here and dominate. Yes, we have, like, a free market. We pry ourselves on that. but this is a mix of first of all like you have business but again we have free market but it's media power and like social technological innovation like which like that's a crazy combination that I don't think like is worth if you guys if you guys aren't going to put down the great

firewall and let us play the game there like like you should not be allowed to play the game here everything is banned over there everything except LinkedIn yeah Google uh YouTube yeah all I mean every social media platform. And so I just don't think it's fair in that way. Yeah. I think that their whole thing about like China, one guy made a great video. He was like some farmer guy. He's like, I don't care what China does with my data. You know who I don't trust the United States government. I don't trust that. And I agree with that. I mean, that's the, you know, we are, we're allowing all these tech companies to track so much of our data. We're giving it. freely to not just tech companies I mean the government and I mean I'm sure you guys have

showed up at the airport and from time to time all of a sudden they're like and just look right here and you look and then all of a sudden the gate opens you're like wait what the fuck how did you do that and like we are you know we're never told or informed about what's being collected I'm sure it's in it's in some huge I'm not fucking read terms and conditions thing I'm supposed to read. But, but yeah, I mean, I... Yeah, it's like, I don't disagree that China could be, like, having these little algorithm shifts. Also, if China did sell to the U.S., we could reverse, like, reverse engineer the algorithm and, like, uncover different stuff. But anyway, it's like, I don't

disagree that China could be pushing some propaganda type stuff. I just think that type of bill gets too messy First Amendment-wise in the most straightforward way is trade reciprocity. I feel like it's... But the, but the U.S. government has also never been... really worried about protecting our data and now they're putting it as like oh well we're out here protecting your data yeah i just think it's like um country like again trade attention type thing is more so and i don't even think that china is interested in spreading propaganda so much as they are interested in spread it teach me how to do that fucking basketball thing i i think it's more like i remember reading some fucking conspiracy theory that uh that the china versus

version of TikTok shows young people. I can't tell if that's like an urban legend. Oh, this is so crazy. They show them like engineering stuff versus. And here we get like bullshit influencer stuff. And there they get like being a rocket scientist is cool. So it is true for kids under 16. They yeah, they have like a more it's like edutain type of feed.

This is like actually wild. So we had never had access to Doyen. Like that's what their name for TikTok is. I think I said that earlier. But the other week, because I would always like check, I'm like do we have access? But like the other week, I checked up, put in doyen.com. It gave us access. This is when the bill started getting hotter within the conversation, gave access.

But I was on it for like hours. And it kept feeding me like a lot of the same videos because I don't think they thought someone would like actually be on it desktop. I think they were like, oh, like, we'll give you guys a little peek. So we'll create some transparency. But it's like they were very like selective with like the types of videos that were on it. And there was some, like, kind of patriotic type stuff. Like, I don't, you, I don't know if it's accessible now, but if you go through it,

even for, like, probably 45 minutes, it's like, you notice, like, the same types of videos start to end, like, they were very selective about it. Interesting. And it's like pro-China stuff. There's some of that mixed in, but there's also stuff that would kind of seem alluring to Americans that they might not even necessarily prioritize within their algorithm there. But they're like, oh, like, we're giving you transparency. Like, look, it's like kind of the same thing over here.

I feel like that's maybe why they did it like all of a sudden allowed access of like oh we're more transparent like everything's cool I want to be one of those guys who China pays to come over and just like live in China and be like look how great it is here but it's like a white guy

and I haven't seen an Italian guy I think they need one so China you looked at me when you said what because I went to China no no I know no but I'll come live anywhere and you know you can teach me how to cook some stuff and I'll make videos and I don't I mean my bicycle around there were a lot of pig videos weirdly the pig stuff's gonna be hard for me I am vegetarian I do want the CCP to know that but um I I just have such a

I go back and forth on China all the time on whether I trust if is it like uh uh am I succumbing to like anti Chinese propaganda from the United States government kind of thing there's definitely some of that oh of course a lot of that you know xenophobia or do I mean having gone there briefly for like four or five days I had a very good experience but also was it like very specific exactly like but I mean also I don't think it's that I think you wanted to be black or white and I don't think right to be I think it's uh I think they like any government I think there's going to be bad things yeah um yeah and I think and I think that's what a lot of people want people to do to be like China bad America good

And it's as simple as that. But it's just not. Yeah. Yeah, they have. So ByDance, too, is like, and I don't know how great their other companies are, but I know they're trying to get in the hardware game with VR in the U.S. And I feel like, again, like I think we're so attached to Apple, though I do see that breaking a bit for a lot of different reasons.

But like, let's say hypothetically, like, just like putting out different storylines of like if they could create like a really compelling hardware product. and that captivates people here. I'm like, that's a whole other round that we cannot. And like we do, we don't have what Huawei here. We like shut out all those different companies. So I feel like that would end up being the same. There's not rules against that right now.

But yeah, it's like, it's like software is so powerful on the mind. It's like the fact that we're like, oh, we shouldn't have their hardware. Like, I don't know. I just feel like we're being maybe a little too lenient on the software side. Well, just wait until we go to war over Taiwan for the chips. it's going to be a real well that's why I think that's part of the reason why

they're doing the Chips Act I'd not think I know that's what they've said is we got to start they gave Intel and I can't remember what other company billions of dollars

in like subsidies to build and where Arizona Nevada somewhere like that building them chips yeah I'm not too up to date on that stuff I think this is

yeah that we should probably wrap up Cool. Plug something. What have you got to plug? Tell the people where to find you and all that stuff. Just at J-U-L-E-S-T-E-R-P-A-K on all platforms. And that's where you'll find me. Okay.

And for our people, well, we'll see you in the bonus. You know what to do. Benadermilshed.com. Thanks for coming on, Jules. This was great. Yeah, thank you very much. Thanks for having me. Oh, thanks.

Thank you. Bye. Oh, shit. I forgot that we've got ads. Oh, it's okay. Yeah. Oh, read the ads. Oh, no, you don't.

Do we have any this week? Do you guys go on camera for your ads? Oh, yeah. I don't think we have any this week. Yeah, we don't. Wow. Well. Nice.

Am I looking at this, right? No, you're looking at it all fucking up, dude. All right, I can... Thank you.