The Ben and Emil Show - BAES 90: A millionaire tells us why he's going ALL IN on robots

Episode Date: March 6, 2025

Chris Camillo is a massively successful investor who's been right on a ton of big trades over the years. And now he's got his eyes (and his money) fully set on humanoid robots. We talk about how he got rich, some of his biggest trades, DOGE, Tesla, trains, FSD, and of course...robots. You can follow Chris at https://x.com/ChrisCamillo and see his show at https://dumbmoney.tv __ Join us in the bonus for a special epilogue on this episode, and more. Sign up for your FIRST MONTH FREE and support the show at https://benandemilshow.com ***LINK TO OUR DISCORD: https://discord.gg/CjujBt8g ***Subscribe to Emil's Substack: https://substack.com/@emilderosa ***Leave a comment! Like this video! Tell a friend about our show! WHY THE MARKET IS CRASHING: https://youtu.be/OSRVh6ns7Z8 Latest MEATBALL SPECIAL HERE: https://youtu.be/uIOdsIn1Tdo We bought suits HERE: https://youtu.be/_cM1XqA9n2U __ FACTOR MEALS: Eat smart with Factor. Get started at https://factormeals.com/baes50off and use code "baes50off" to get 50% off your first box plus free shipping. HIMS: Don't lose your hair, fellas!! Start your free online visit today at https://hims.com/BAES MANDO: Control Body Odor ANYWHERE with @shop.mando and get $5 off off your Starter Pack (that’s over 40% off) with promo code BAES at https://Mandopodcast.com/BAES #mandopod CHUBBIES: Chubbies is here to help you take on 2025 in style! Get 20% off @chubbies with the code BENANDEMIL at: https://www.chubbiesshorts.com/BENANDEMIL #chubbiespod __ This episode was edited by Connor Rousseau / @ conrad_roussrad Follow us on instagram! @ benandemilshow @ bencahn @ emilderosa Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Dude, what are you talking about? Are you out of your mind? I look at every single piece of content that's trending. There's like a lot of like trade what you know. That's so limiting. We're just trying to perfect one robot that can do every single thing that a human could do. You just created an infinite labor machine that will radically shift civilization. Like radically.

Think about AI's capabilities right now. How easy would that be for today's? AI. Nothing. It's so simple and easy. There are robots standing up in factories right now doing human work. Robots that look like me and you. And by the way, the financial goal is monstrously big. I think these humanoid companies will likely be the most valuable companies on Earth because you could literally throw them in a setting and tomorrow they're working. You don't have to change the lines. You don't have to change the factory settings. They just start working right now. That's the conversation, life and death.

Okay? I'm going to tell you, you're soft, okay? You guys are so soft. Think about a bigger picture. Hey, welcome to the show, everyone. We've got a very interesting episode today. We're extremely excited because people have been asking us for a two-hour episode for a long time. And you finally got it, folks, and then some, because we went well over two hours.

Our guest... Unintentionally. Honestly, it was just a really interesting conversation. It was very fun to have someone on with a... of a different perspective from us and he's talking about things that he's very excited about. Yeah. And we really went deep. We went long. I mean, by the time, by the time we realized how long we went, we realized that Chris had to get out of here. So we had to cut off, but we could have kept going. And it really gets, really gets interesting. Yeah. Our guest is Chris Camillo.

He's a very successful investor. He's been outspoken online about his predictions for the future. So we invited him on the show to talk about what he believes is the next big thing, not only for the economy, but for just personal wealth building and investing. It's humanoid robots. And so after the episode... And he's been right a few times. Oh yeah. He's been right many, many times. So his credibility lends itself to having this conversation and seeing what he's got to say. After the episode, head over to beninamil's show.com. We'll be doing a special epilogue about this episode. We had a lot of feelings, a lot of thoughts, a lot of things to say. And so our bonus episode, we're going to talk quite a bit about that.

We're going to do, if you sign up, you get one free month. We got tons of stuff on there over 100 hours. We've got over 100 hours of bonus content. It's also, we're running a little promo right now, one free month if you go and sign up. Go sign up. And that's running through April. That's exactly right. So let's kick it off.

Cue the intro, baby. Tell me what's going on. Tell me what's going on. So isn't enough to bed in me? Tell me what's going on. Tell me what's going on. All right, folks. We got a very special episode for you today.

We have a billionaire in our midst. A certified billionaire. We are going to ask him for, I don't know, a couple hundred bucks at the end of this. No, we're not going to do that. Also, we did interview Vlad Pennep. Yeah, you're our second billionaire. That was very fun, actually, interviewing him.

We caught him off guard. No, we've got Chris Camillo from, would I say you're from dumb money? Is that what you'd prefer? Yeah, yeah, sure. Yeah. And just before, just as I was greeting you outside, you told me something very funny,

which is that you're in town for a Pokemon card convention. Yeah, I don't, I don't do Pokemon, but I own the big Pokemon convention called Collecticon. So we're in 18 cities. Wow. Holy shit. When did you start that? Oh, I actually am a co-owner with a guy that started it like with his cousins four years ago.

And now we're the largest card trading show convention in the world, which is wild. I mean, there's like there's 20,000 people at the L.A. Convention Center right now. Wow. And this is not just Pokemon. It's all kinds of cards. It's Pokemon, Yu-Gio, Magic the Gathering, a little bit of sports cards thrown in. But it's, you know, TCG, table card games, nerd culture. He's, uh, our boy Jim there is really into Magic the Gathering.

Are you? Dude, you got it. I would have given you a pass. I would have brought a pass for you. I would have brought a VIP pass for you. I'm sorry. I don't know, Jim. I'm so sorry. It's tomorrow. You got to go.

I'm not, I'm no kidding. Like you. you will you will freak out it's that good how's uh how's security there security type uh

you know because family run show I was talking um I don't remember when it was last week or two weeks ago on this show about how I went to VidCon once which is like the creator conference in Anaheim and there was

no security and I just remember thinking man if I was um I was one of of those guys, you know. Okay. All right. All right. So, we'll just cut that one. What are the implications?

There are a lot of things that we'll probably cut out. No, no, it's the cold brew that's kidding me. All right. So the reason that we... I knew where it was gone. I was like, why is he bringing this up? I don't know, man. You know me.

My brain is all kinds of messed up. Let's introduce Chris to people who might not know. Yeah, you're, the reason that I asked you on the show is because you are, you are big, you're a very successful investor and your big thing that you have been been very outspoken about online is robots, in particular humanoid robots. So I guess a good first question would be just how much currently of your like net worth are you invested in robotics right now? A lot. Like on paper, I mean a lot, I would say maybe a third. Jesus.

My network, maybe more. As the value of the robot companies that I'm investing in goes up, it becomes a higher and higher percentage. Right. So maybe close to half at this point. And are they all, are the majority private, because I know the only one that you've really spoken about that's public is Tesla. Yeah, there are three.

There's Tesla, which is public. Yeah. They're like, I don't know, a $1.2 trillion valuation. people will say that the robot piece of that is probably about $100 billion. And there's Figure AI, San Francisco. They're raising at a $40 billion evaluation right now, which is just insane. That company's like two and a half years old, raising out a $40 billion valuation. That is run by Brett Adcock.

He's the founder's CEO. And then there's Aptronic out of Austin, Texas. and Apptronic is the robot company I've been working most closely with over the past few years. I'm invested in all three. Yeah. Yeah, figure AI,

you've seen a little bit about this one. Yeah, and if you haven't, if you don't know, we're talking about like humanoid robots. The most famous one people have probably seen are the ones that were recently debuted at Tesla's latest.

Yeah, the optimist. Yes. Optimist bot. Yeah. Were you at that? I was not, I was not at that event I was not at that event

I mean all the bots that are out right now are like 1.0 you know they're all like we're just scratching the surface like we're not even we're probably not even in halfway through the first inning

of the robot game wow what concerns me though just as someone who wants to obviously participate and partake in the investing aspect of this is the fact that something like figure is already valued it $40 billion. It feels just like, okay, great. You know, it's prohibitively expensive now. And I also

just can't as a private investor put my money in that. That's a relative term. And, you know, expensive. Like was Amazon expensive at $40 billion? Was all expensive at $40 billion? You know, when I sit, you know, I'm in Texas and Optronics in Texas. And when I go down to the lab at Apptronic in Austin, it feels like 1983 sitting there with Steve Jobs and you're getting ready to, you know, ship the first home computer out. Like I think I was there the week. They were shipping the first humanoid robot out at Apptronic to one of their clients. And it felt that special. And it's like this should be a deca trillion dollar industry. So, you know, it's, you know, it's, impossible to know who the winners will be, right? You have a gut feeling, but it's, it's

really impossible. That will play out over the next five to ten years. But if you're one of the winners, a $40 billion evaluation just seems ridiculously small right now. So they're currently shipping robots to clients right now to be used practically? Both of the big private companies in the space are shipping robots right now. We're in the pilot stage. So this is the year of the robot pilot, where robots are learning how to do real commercial and industrial work at factories, and the robot companies are stress testing them. They're actually training them with a foundational AI model to be able to learn to do those jobs themselves, where right now they've been doing those jobs in labs using teleoperations. So you have a human with a VR headset on and gloves and they're training the robot how to like take a piece of sheet metal and move it from here to here or how to move a box or how to work on a car engine and they're at the Tesla event all those people were all those robots were teleoperated.

Yeah, those are all teleoperated. But all that data is being collected and it is training an AI model that's a foundational model for robotics. And over the course of the next two years, we believe we'll get to full robotic generalization, which means that the robots will achieve zero shot learning. Zero shot learning is when that foundational model becomes so strong that like a human, you might not know how to do something, but you're able to connect the dots and learn how to do anything relatively quickly. So you'll be able to ship out a robot in a few years and have anyone say, watch us do this job for a few hours and then the robot will watch and visually learn how to do it

and it will just start doing the job based on its AI brain essentially right so we're at the beginning stages of that right now where these robots can do things on their own they just can't do everything on their own and they can't do things as quickly as we would like them to do it we'd like them to be able to do it consistently at human speed, 22 hours a day, seven days a week. Like, this is the year where we're going to try to push the limits to see how close we can get to that. But certainly over the course of the next two years, that is happening. And we will start to scale out robots in factories around the world, probably beginning in 2027, 2008. the real scaling kind of gets closer to the end of the decade.

And then as you get into the 2030s, I think we'll see robots in unstructured environments like the home or hospitals or elder care, actually working with humans, not in a structured environment in a factory where it's very safe, but in an environment to where they're just fully interoperating with us in our daily life. That's coming in the next five to eight years. That's happening. And that's when I think it gets really exciting for like everyone, right?

A robot doing your laundry, a robot like reorging your closet or, you know, doing the dishes or picking up around the house or more importantly, a robot taking care of a parent or a grandparent that, you know, where you can't afford $200,000 a year for around the clock care. And you could actually have someone to do that critical work. I just like just raising our living standard, especially towards end of life. And this is like going to be huge for humanity. Interesting. There's a lot there that I, that we both really want to like unpack and dive into. But maybe first we can take a step back and talk about your background and sort of how you got to this place. You, you were a traitor at first, right?

No, I mean, I was just like, you guys are too young. There was a show called Family Ties, and it was a character, Alex Keaton, is just like... Michael J. Fox. Michael J. Fox. He was just kind of like a money nerd, but like that kind of wasn't really that big. That was like a really extreme thing to be when I was growing up. That's who I was. Okay.

So on the show, they made him out to be. be a big nerd, right? Yeah. Yeah. He was like a big Reagan guy. Yeah. Exactly. If you were into finance as a teenager in the 80s or 90s, that was not normal and it was not cool. Okay. You kind of like hit it from the world. That was me. Okay. So there were no crypto traders like cool crypto kids. Like no, none of that stuff was there were no like hustler economy. That's quite cool to be a hustler. Like, no, no, know that was me i was that kid who today i think those kids are kind of cool today uh not in my time but that that's who i was so like i i was growing up i always had like a hundred businesses i was like doing garage sales on thursdays fridays and saturdays like flipping products pre-ebay just like

doing anything i could to make a dollar yeah i learned how to invest as a kid you know i told the story like i was you know i was able to discover when You know, Snapple iced tea was losing shelf space because I would have a Snapple every Thursday, Friday morning before I'd start garage sailing. And I, through my older brother, learned how to short Snapple with Puts. I was like 14 years old and hold my money in a few weeks. Snapple was publicly traded? It was like one of the hottest companies in the world. Was it?

It wasn't owned by Hansons, was it? No, this is like, no. This Snapple, publicly traded company, one of the biggest, one like the trendiest biggest companies in the world. like out of stocks at the time and I shored them right at the like right at the top because they were losing shelf space to like I don't know Arizona T I don't know the competitors were yeah I was just a kid but I was like how the hell did I just do that and all these guys on wall street should have seen that like why do they not see that right yeah like you had a knack for taking your real world experience and applying it to market it's just I just a knackers trying

trying to like retrain your mind to see the world as it's unfolding and to detect change, like change in culture, change in consumer behavior, change in technology, like a shift in anything. Anytime there's change, there's opportunity to make money. The bigger the change, the bigger opportunity. The faster the change, the bigger the opportunity. So, like, if you're able to, like, just surface change in the world a little bit quicker than others and connect the dots back to the companies that would benefit or be harmed

by that change, and then you put your money into that idea. that's literally it. That's what I do. That's it. That's the whole thing. One of the, my most painful versions of that was incredibly stupid. It was right before Grand Theft Auto 5 came out. And I, in my trading account, I got started pretty early. I'm in my 30s now, but I opened my first account when I was like 19. Instead of just buying Take 2 interactive outright, which at the time was like $15, $16, $16. a share. That was the move. I put all of it into somewhat near-dated call options and they just went to zero. Because it just didn't, even though I knew at the time

because Take 2 was valued at, I don't know, $800 or $900 million. And I was like, I know that this game's going to be absolutely massive. They're just going to start doing the online Grand Theft Auto where that's going to be a continuous flow of income for the next however many years and sure enough yeah i just i watched my call options go to zero but i was doing exactly what you're talking about i was seeing i felt like i was this is the world around me i know that this game is going to be huge and i just completely fucked it up yeah but it's great though you that's how you learn i i think i think everyone should do that stuff as much as possible when they're young

yeah because it hurt but i guarantee you like lesson learn now 15 20 years from now when you're investing 10, 20 times the volume of money that you're investing now, you're going to be so happy you learned it back then, right? You know what I'm still fucking learning it.

We're always still learning. We're always all still learning. It's like it's the big, dude, this is the biggest game on earth. Yeah. It's the biggest game. It's global financial markets.

If you figure out how to master it, you were literally a billionaire. You know what I'm saying? So it's like, Is this what you call social arbitrage? Yeah, social arb is just connecting dots. Did you coin this term? I did.

I never thought people would ever actually use the term. Yeah, maybe you can explain it. It kind of blows my mind. Yeah, it's, you're, you're doing exactly what I said. You're surfacing change and you're connecting dots and you're trading at the point of information imbalance. When there's information that you have access to that the rest of the world, the financial markets for whatever reason haven't seen yet or don't believe yet or haven't factored into the price

of a sector or stock. That's when you're placing a trade. You're exiting the trade at the moment of information parity. When everybody has access to that information, everyone clearly sees it and it's completely factored into the price of the various companies that you're training. That's it. It's that simple. There's no financials. There's no technicals. You don't need 18 monitors. I do all my trading and research on this phone right here.

Like literally, that's it. I'm like I do it from anywhere in the world. Yeah, you're now a big TikTok guy, right? You like to scan TikTok comments and see what people are saying. I've always, I've always observed the world through different mediums. So back before internet, it was just going to the mall like Peter Lynch did back in the 80s. And I told, I have very early stories, uh, training off of Facebook, Facebook comments. Like when Facebook was the only social network, like this is a game changer. Like there's a

company like moms were talking about their little kids, uh, being totally quiet for half an hour. And it was the first time their kids were quiet. And like, I thought someone might have died. And I was like, looking for my kids. Like what happened? And they were watching a show called Chuggington, this like random show. Chuggington. And like, I was like, what's this show that all these moms are talking about. It was like the first day that it aired in the Disney channel. It's like, dude, this show's going to be huge. And it's like, it was actually a small publicly

traded company on the London Stock Exchange. I bought it that day and made an absolute killing. The show ended up getting huge ratings to no one's surprise if you were following social data. Anyway, so like, but that was Facebook. Then it became Twitter. Like, people used to actually

express themselves on Twitter, not politics and not news. They would talk about what movie they were going to see that night on Twitter, what they were eating, what they were eating, what they were buying, like, what their passions were. Twitter used to be this really diverse space of, like, culture and conversational, like, diversity. No more. I built an entire software platform for hedge funds off of Twitter back when that was the case. Now it's TikTok. So, like, I don't know what it's going to be. And that platform was just so you could call all kinds of consumer sentiments, basically?

I study conversational data. That's it. I study conversations. I read four hours of conversations a night, mostly, not exclusively, but mostly on TikTok these days. And it's been TikTok for a long time because TikTok is the place that people feel most comfortable sharing what they feel, right? So you have a video about, you know, this is like my latest trade actually is

Abercrombie because of Hollister. It's going to bring it out. Yeah. So like Hollister is a company. I've been kind of following the last few months. It's like, wow, I'm in like the conversational, the volume of positive conversational data is just skyrocketing. People all of a sudden are really loving Gen Z Hollister. And but that's what you do. You just people, they'll talk about it. Like you'll have one video and you'll have 8,000 comments on the video. Oh my gosh. I saw that. It's sold out in my city and like I would do anything for that dress or whatever they're talking. about right it's it's like a really dirty data source because the data doesn't correlate historically like wall street likes correlated data hard data credit card transaction swipe data that they know has a high correlation to a company's revenue right and they'll only trade that data where they have like five years of of correlated you know history they're scared of conversational data. Wall Street is frightened of it. They don't know what to do with it. They don't

know how to trade off it because they don't know if they can believe it. It's always fluctuating and changing. How we speak is always changing, right? It's not, it doesn't fit into their DNA of what they're good at at like sell side banks or buy side hedge funds, which means it's an opportunity for like more normal people to like, we're not afraid of it. Like, that's the, world we live in, like the world of just talking about crap all day. Yeah, to act on those things. You mentioned Abercrombie that I was going to say the two big TikTok trades that come to mind are Abercrombie and Elf cosmetics because Elf famously really, really dove in hard on TikTok and they paid a bunch of influencers and just it spread like wildfire. That happened because

of Jeffrey Starr, who was a YouTuber. And then they didn't try. try it. They just happened organically. And then when they realized that that one video, 12 million views, but for the LF primer putty, which is a huge trade of mine, when they realized that that one video turned around their brand, they were like, they were smart enough to lean into it. And they developed the strategy after that. Hey, guys, we want to take a quick break to talk about Factor today, okay? Spring is here, spring is sprung, daylight savings time over, summer's right around the corner. Who's thinking about their beach body?

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off your first box plus free shipping. That's code Factor Podcast at FactorMeals.com slash Factor Podcast to get 50% off plus free shipping on your first box. How are you being? fed like Jeffrey Star makeup tutorials. Yeah, what's going on there? No, no, not, I'm not, I'm just, you're very good at like, I just would never interact with any of this stuff. And you, you have to, you force yourself to. I know, but where do I even, I, I don't even know who that is. I'm like, you don't know who Jeffrey star is? No. Wow. He was very big on MySpace. Because, but you, so you saw a

Jeffrey Starr. I look at every single piece of content that's trending. And then I proactively look for every piece of content across every industry. I'm looking for what toys are selling out. I'm looking for what girls fashion, what they're buying, right? Like, I'm looking at every single thing proactively. I'm seeking it out. I'm searching for keywords on TikTok, right?

And then I'm looking for videos with those keywords. I have numerous keywords that I know to search for that will help me surface what's trending. So you're just looking for it proactively. You're almost doing, I forgot who said it, but you're just buying what you know. No, I'm not buying what you know. So I don't know any. You're observing what the world is talking about. You're observing what other people care about,

even if you don't care about it. I don't care about hardly any of this stuff. I'm not buying like Gen Z outfits. You know what I'm saying? But I don't care about it, but the world cares about it. So, you know, Peter Lynch was like a, yeah, there's like a lot of like trade what you know. That's so limiting.

and it's so biased because you could be a freak you know what I'm saying you like you could care about things that no one else cares about yeah that's not in in fact you know it's funny because I was talking

the Hollister deal I was at dinner with one of my L.A. friends recently and his daughter who's like an L.A. type person and she was like oh Hollister is kind of like that's not really. I was like, no, no, no, you don't count. You're like bleeding edge, L.A., New York.

Chasing trends. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, you guys are on the bleeding edge. What matters is what trends in Ohio. What matters is what trends in, you know, the middle of the country, the flyover states, because that is where, that's where you could really make money, not just on the runway, but like with tens of millions of kids, like just trying to like keep up with something. It doesn't matter what it is. That's where the real money's made at the malls. Yeah. I have to say, when I hear you talk about it, I'm like, that makes sense. It's so easy. Anyone could do it.

But I have so many, I have so many friends who have like been like, I figured it out. I'm going to be a full-time trader now. And they're, you know, I don't, maybe they're not saying the word social arbitrage, but they're applying these kinds of strategies. And then, you know,

within a year or two, they're like, I fucked it up. You're probably doing what I did. Really? I lost. options. I lost a bunch of money and now I'm, yeah, because they're being crazy. That's why, like, they're doing, yeah, everybody, they're trying to get rich too quick. Listen, I did that. I did it too. I did it when I was young. I was like, I had, I had hundreds and thousands of dollars and I wanted to be a millionaire like tomorrow. So you buy options that are so far out of the money because

you're just like, in your head, you're like, I need 100x leverage. Like, you're like, you're like, if I'm right, that's it. I'm a millionaire tomorrow. And then I can invest. That's what my attitude was. That is such like a nov, you know, it's, well, we do that stuff when we're young and crazy. Like, you just can't, you can't take that much risk because if anything goes even remotely wrong or just doesn't play out exactly how much you think it's going to play out, you lose 100% of your investment. We all learn those lessons when we're younger.

I have a couple questions pertaining to just, yeah, all of this, trading, investing. I constantly struggle with regret of like, I saw elf when it was at like 15 bucks a share and I was too impatient. I just thought, ah, yeah, maybe they're starting to, you know, take off finally. But they had, I'd been watching them for years and they were just range bound. And I thought that's just a dead. It's one of the cases where the business might be good, but the stock sucks. So I passed on it

And I just never looked at it again Until it was in the hundreds Same thing with Abercrombie and Fitch This guy actually brought it up We were talking about it on the show And he was talking about how good their basics are With their t-shirts and stuff And at the time I remember looking at the stock

And it was like 30-40 bucks And I again passed on it Netflix 10 years ago I remember when Carl Icon Famously bought a steak It was at like 65 bucks a share Pre-Pit And I just thought

It's too late. I miss the boat. I'm not going to. So I carry around a lot of regret. Not just about stocks. Oh, yeah. So much regret. I mean, buddy. Jesus, God. But so I'm just curious, it seems to be the number one problem that a lot of investors and traders have is that psychological aspect of just coping with regret and giving it, putting it permanently in the backseat and focusing on what's ahead. Is this plague you at all? Do you have any big regrets, big losses, anything like that? Huge losses, but regrets, there's always another opportunity right in front of you. You just got to like, we don't, you got, you don't want to believe that you're capable of doing something that a deck a trillion dollar industry can't do quicker than you or better than you. You're like, how am I able to do this? There's people out there that are smarter than me that have way more money than me. they can buy whatever data they want to buy they have access to everything like how can i beat

them is what you know but you it's so easy to beat them it's so easy to beat them now you're making mistakes you made timing mistakes sure but you probably you had to have learned from that yeah i did absolutely i number one stopped fucking around with penny stocks years ago yeah that that's the problem man i mean that's when i first that's what i first got into with like just a couple thousand bucks. And I thought, oh boy, these soap-filled sponges are going to be the future. This little... This pill you drop in your gas. Yeah. This is what I love about the younger generations. There are so many, like, insanely smart kids that are getting into investing and trading, and they're trading crap. They are trading meme stocks. They're trading crypto-shik coins.

Yeah. They're trading the dumbest. things and they're so these kids are so much smarter than me none of them are my competition who's studying comments on Hollister besides me on TikTok not many not many people um if there's some guys but doing it for different reasons yeah probably right if this new generation of younger traders kids started to go head to head with me they would probably kick my ass but but Because I feel like that they're playing the meme stocks and the crypto and meme coins and all that stuff is because they're doing what you say not to do is they want to get rich quick. They see people pump coins to oblivion. But they are, listen, the thing is they're having to monitor and track such quick moving information and news flow.

To make any money in that space, you got to be on the bleeding edge quicker than every. you got to be surfacing new information, new news, new updates, so much quicker than everyone else. It's almost impossible. You got to move at light speed. If you were capable of doing that in just equities, you would crush it, but they don't, which I'm happy about. It makes my life really easy. But you could, dude, you just, just keep going. Just keep going, but just stop the stupid stuff. Yeah. With every, with every big investment that I've missed, I always do remember that there is always something new around the corner. Most recently Reddit was a big trade of mine. I mean, when it was in the 40s and 50s, I was accumulating a lot. I'm a prop trader,

so I've got a firm that I work with that give me a bunch of capital to trade with. So I was able to really capitalize on that in a way that I otherwise would not have been able to. But real fast. I saw that you and I had a very, very similar experience during 2020, the COVID thing. Okay. Yeah. I was famously, frustratingly, buying puts as the market just kept. No way. So you saw it too. So what, what, tell me about your story. I was paying attention to it in December. I was chronically online, seeing the people quite literally dropping dead in China and was like going, whoa, this is this is not normal. This is very strange. This is, um, this is cause for concern and alarm that nobody seems to be talking about yet. And normally I'm quite skeptical about that kind of thing. Like

bird flu years ago, all the other kind of, um, pandemics that just never quite got to that level. I just was always like, that's bullshit. It's bullshit. This one, something about it just really i just was like i recognize what's going on here and it ain't good and yeah starting in december late december early january i was just losing i was buying puts thousands of dollars you were really early yes very early uh and then i kind of gave up and i was so fucking frustrated i just seriously in the like discord chat that i'm in all caps i just be like well i guess the market just doesn't fucking care that people are dropping dead in China, that they're locking people into their apartments. Who cares? Because the market just keeps going higher. And I knew a little bit,

I mean, this is when, you know, Jim Carson? I don't know. He's a big options guy. He talks a lot about how he would really get mad at me for saying this, but it's kind of how he talks about how options are the tail that wags the dog of the market. And little did I know at the time, he was talking about how there's these supportive flows from all the options and all the vix traders and all this shit from the institutions and the dealers hedging and whatnot that was keeping this bid up until OPEX and he I guess called it like to the day he said that after Feb OPEX is when we're likely to see things start to tank and it just so happens that that Friday in February. I finally was like, no, it's reached such an inflection point. We had already had

a few infections in the States. I think we may even have had a couple deaths, but I put $75,000, $80,000 of my own money into SPX puts. And that Sunday, when I will never forget, that Sunday, the futures opened and it was down like 5% or something. And I was equal parts thrilled for myself and terrified because I called my mom at like two in the morning and she answered and I was like, I'm really nervous. I'm about to make a ton of money. But it also feels terrible because... You might not live to spend it.

Yeah. What the fuck? Truly, like what the fuck is going to happen? A week prior I had texted my whole family and said, you guys got to like load up on groceries and they all made fun of me. and yeah so you had a similar experience right we we actually pulled our kid at us we were the first to pull our kid out of school midday and then like the next days when canceled school or something like that it was it was i was so early like you december google translate was my friend i was translating

every paper every report that i could out of china it was i knew it was coming i knew and i lost a lot of money. I was saying I was like five to 10% of my portfolio every week and puts puts on yeah puts on travel casinos and just the S&P yeah and I just wiped out every week wiped out wiped out wiped out and then eventually eventually it hit I remember the Sunday eventually it hit it was that 2% drop that happened before that everyone was like buy the dip But it felt good to be right, but it also felt terrible to be right about that. And it was really scary. We had some, you know, we had some health issues that were, you know,

throughout my family that made some people more at risk. I was like actually super concerned about it. But yeah, did you, did you trade the other side of it? Chris. this is aside from GameStop this is my biggest white whale

that I just will never be able to live down because I almost at the very bottom closed out I mean I was closing my shorts as things were dropping but then I had this pile of cash and I bought so many

good quality business I bought Shopify I don't even remember what the hell at this point I bought so many things. And then right as we were starting to bottom, this is sometimes where I shine. When there's a big narrative,

I'm up late at night and I'm trying to figure out what's next. What is, what's like the second, third order thinking that people aren't quite getting at? And I was talking to that guy, Brian, my friend Brian. And the narrative at the time was there is no way we are going to V bottom. There's no way the market is just going to be. bounce where we've got a double bottom at least we've got to test that that bottom to put in a solid you know foundation for recovery and I was like you know I just have this terrible gut feeling that we are going to do exactly what everybody says we're not going to do which is just fucking

straight up rally got in at the bottom and after about 5 10 percent I got scared pulled it all and then I just watched as it did exactly what I thought it was going to do you let a technical Trader to get in your head. Yes. And then also, I remember being so, again, in Discord, all caps. I'm just like, they're going to say, shortest bear market in history, short. And then fucking months later, that's what they called it. Shortest bare market in history. And it felt so painful. And then, yeah, fast forward to GameStop. I didn't believe the short interest was over 100%. I thought it was an error. And when it started to go, I bought 6,000 shares. in my IRA in the teens and then I flipped it for a couple bucks I felt really good and then when it hit the 20s I just thought well that was it I missed it and then I watched it go to 400 I used to be really I used to be a real dick where it's technical traders like I when I wrote my first my book laughing at Wall Street in 2010 I feel bad now because I'm friends with a bunch of technical traders I was like I really ripped them hard I just like

there's just no value. The whole thing is a circus. But I will say, like, there are proficient technical traders that do well over a long period of time. I think they're kind of anomalies, but they definitely exist. There is value there in technical trading, but real information always trumps the technicals every single time. And he's just, there's no comparison between technicals and real information. When the information is strong, technicals literally don't matter at all. So the information of what's driving

a particular narrative will always trump any technical type of stuff, right? And it will break through it. And then you'll be explaining it in some other way later on. Except when what I do like is, because I agree with you for the most part, When technicals meet news and events, and, you know, it's just the perfect, it just, it's good for risk-reward stuff, I think, sometimes when they really, you know, if Tesla's coming down to its 200-day moving average and they've got earnings coming up or something like that. Yeah, I guess there's some value there. There's some value there. It's just not my thing. I can't. Yeah. I can only process so much through my brain and I don't have any room left for technical.

Should we talk about how you started processing the robot information? Yeah, robots. So when did robots first speak to you as it was somewhere in the social ether? I think first of all, I always say having a prepared mind is everything as an investor. Having a prepared mind? Prepared mind. You have to have a prepared mind in order to be a good social arb investor, right? And what I mean by that is you have to be kind of ready for certain events.

I always tell people like, do you have like, what's your, what's your, what's your, and you live in California? Like, what's your earthquake trade? Cry. Like, how do you, how do you, how are you an investor though? And you have something that over the, and you're young, over the course of 20 or 30 years, let's say next 30 years. there's a reasonably high likelihood that it will happen. Will it happen during trading hours?

Well, now that we trade stocks 24 hours a day, it almost doesn't matter. It could be the easiest trade of your lifetime. And all you have to do is have a prepared mind, know exactly what you're going long, what you're going short, and just be mentally prepared for it. And the very second that, let's hope it doesn't happen. But even if it's 12 years from now, 15 years from now, the second it happens, you having a prepared mind knowing exactly what you were going to do, could be the difference between, you know, you generating 15, 16, 20 million on that trade

and generating, you know, a few hundred thousand. Because you got in like five minutes late, 10 minutes late, you were kind of like, oh, what should I be thinking about doing here? Now, you can just short the market or whatever, and that's fine, but that won't, that won't be any. anywhere near as meaningful is shorting the perfect short stock. Yeah. That's going to be hit the hardest during the California quake, if it's Northern Cal or Southern Cal or Southern Cal. Hey, guys. We're going to take another break to talk about hymns.

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See you website for full details and important safety information. I like that in this scenario, I'm not, I'm actively at my... yeah yeah yeah yeah like yeah i gotta do the plan not me i know exactly what i'm doing you'll be in texas doesn't matter where you are but like like you know exactly what you're and there's a hundred things like that you can prepare yourself for a hundred things not knowing which of them is going to happen but the second it happens you are ready to go right like the next virus or or whatever

Anyway, the reason why I'm saying that is because you really only need to be right on one really big thing in your entire life. If you're right on one big trade over the course of 40 years and you have, you know, a bucket of money that you're willing to put into that one big thing, you're done. Like you're probably top one or two percent of all investors. You could be right twice in your life on a big thing. What I mean by that is like, like, if you were right, if you were right about this, right? If you were right about this or if you're right about cloud computing or if you were right about just the internet generally back in the day and through the dot com crash, we're willing to stick with a couple of the big winners and just stay in, that's all you need. So like you always have to be looking for the next really big thing. Okay, it is a crypto, right?

Is it blockchain? Is it 3D printing? Like sometimes they don't really pan out. The Metaverse. The Metaverse. Yeah. There you go. Yeah.

Zuck believed in that one. Big time. Maybe someday. The damn company. Yeah. You have to have a prepare mine. So, yeah.

Robotics, and this is the cool part. When it comes to things that are like really fascinating, like too good to be true or too bad to be true, COVID, right? That's why people didn't. That's the real reason. I know your friend thinks it was like that other kind of institutional. technical that kind of withheld the market from dropping but it wasn't

because trust me like if people would have believed if anybody actually had any sort of conviction of what was going to happen there are no institutional drivers of money that would have stopped that market from crashing three weeks earlier okay

and so when you have something that's really big and spectacular like you can't even wrap your head around it no one's going to believe it until it's right in front of their face and they've seen it like so many different ways and so many different people and entities and validation points are like no this is real this is happening that like you're like okay I guess this is actually happening right now but you'll have such a long window to trade it because no one's going to believe it until it's true like

nobody believe that this was actually going to be like we're going to not use like keyboards on our phones the concept of having a phone without a keyboard again you're too young was so insane it's like there's just no freaking way that's going to be a thing yeah i was in high school when it came out i remember it being a very big deal i remember even like the i was probably what maybe like a senior in high school would it come out in 2007 um it felt like a big deal it felt like a and we talk about this on the show sometimes like tech has changed. It used to be this, you know, they would, uh, they would do their big conference and they would release whatever new piece of tech revolutionary. They would say it's going to change everything.

And then they would say, and you can pre-order it now. It's going to come out in a few months. And you've talked about this little bit how like companies are now like pulling revenue forward. And it feels very different where open AI is a great example where they do these conferences and they say, I don't know. Hopefully in the future you'll be able to do this. And it feels very difficult to believe. And, you know, full disclosure, I'm quite skeptical about a lot of this stuff. But I want to hear more about, you know, why you believe so heavily into it. Especially like the Elon stuff, you know, this guy who has been telling us for so long that...

Yeah, that's part of the problem. He's the perfect example of the conferences where the tech's right around the corner. You're going to have full self-drive in 2018. You're going to have in 2019 here. I'm in 2020. Yeah, Elon's part of the problem. problem when it comes to this. Let's talk about large language models for a second, though, because if you think about NVIDIA and you think about the stocks that have had these insane runs, let's talk about

NVIDIA for a minute, large language models, there was a point at which each of us finally came to the realization that AI is real, okay? Like, we're all very resistant in the beginning days. I think I'm still a little resistant, to be honest. I think large language, from what I can tell with AI, I don't think they're close to AGI or anything like that that they're promising. I think they've kind of retinkered search engines and is what large language models have brought us. And it's like kind of a new way to access all the information and data that they've fed into these large language models. I think that's broken some things that we're very used to.

I think Googling is a completely different experience than it used to be. and I think we've we've now kind of forced to put trust in things that we can't fully trust and information has become um less reliable

um and then but you are viewing that through a really narrow lens of the things that AI is not great at today um and you mentioned AGI which is a whole other

beast, okay? So like, the degree to which we will or won't reach AGI or super intelligence and how long that will take is open for debate, certainly. What's not open for debate is what AI can do right now. And what AI can do right now is so actually insane that if we just stopped right now with AI, with the evolution of AI, and simply took what we have right now, and started productizing that, and it would probably take us a decade to fully productize it, it would radically change everything in our world, right? So what AI can do right now,

just large language models, I mean, shoot, it creates content so beautifully. It's unreal. I don't even write anything or send anything unless it's been filtered through a large language model, right? Like I used to sit there staring at a paragraph for like hours. Now I just write it in 10 seconds and it does what I would have taken me three days to do in about a millisecond once I run it through AI. And it actually knows how to develop my ideas into writing in a way that I couldn't even do myself. But what I'm getting at is we can, when I say real, the word real can mean different things to me into you.

But once we realize that this AI large language models were a tool that would be a decadillion, $100 billion to multi-trillion dollar tool set for our civilization, which is what it is right now, once it gets productized, the stocks like Nvidia started moving. It took forever. You know how slow it took for Nvidia to start moving on the realness of what a large language model was? But eventually we're seeing it. We're seeing it encoding right now. Like it's happening.

Yeah, that was another one. It's mass. There's like a hundred things where large language models are literally turning the entire sector on its head. That's just right now without hitting AGI, without solving the hallucin, hallucinating type issues. Because I have major issues with AI too and where people think it's going and how it's going and how it's going to get there in the timeline as well.

I don't think they created nothing. I think coding is a good example where it seems very useful for people. and the LLM seemed to be, to me, I'm like, it's kind of cute. They, you know, they got it to, they got it to spit out this, um, the data we fed it into, in, in this like, human-ish way. And, but I'm, the, making it into products, I'm, I'm a bit skeptical too where, like, even something like Gemini, you know, they thought, Google thought, oh, we're going to get everyone to pay an extra 20 bucks a month because they're going to want these, uh, these AI

programs we built. No one wants them. They're bundling them into things and, uh, now they're just charging everyone. The productization of AI is in its infancy right now, okay? We don't even understand or know how to package it and deliver it in a way that is most useful yet. That's very normal. But understand this. Almost everything that we do is humans in terms of like morning to night, daily life in your normal job for 90 to 95 percent.

of that, it's very simple. But we're doing as humans, 90 to 95% of all humans on Earth, what they do with their lives, with their heads, in their jobs is extraordinarily straightforward and simple. AI right now can solve almost all of those tasks right now. So the bleeding edge part to push society forward to create new things in novel ways, the next inventions, right? the next, you know, the next cures to diseases, which, by the way, I think right now AI can solve, and it is. But we can debate the degree to which AI is capable or not capable of doing that and what the timeline would be. But what's not debatable is right now, it is the biggest thing we've literally have seen in our lifetime, what AI is going to do

over the next decade, just based on the evolution of it, where it is right now today, once it gets productized. Yeah, I feel like I'm someone who does not, I've used chat GPT maybe three times. I don't use, in fact, the only AI that I currently use is the new feature on the iPhone where it like summarizes your emails and text and stuff. You're such a boomer.

I use AI models and I'm often disappointed in the limitations. I am too. So, but I feel like I'm being sold a much more, You are. You're being sold something bigger than a product and then I use it and I'm going, but it can't do any of the things I need to do. That's why you have an issue with AI. I have the same issue, but I'm able to separate that. The bill of goods were getting sold versus what it actually is. I'm able to separate that from all the stuff because you're probably trying to do stuff like I'm trying to do, right? That it needs a little more than what it is today. but there's so much right now that it could be, you should be on it all day long. I, especially as someone who trades and tries to invest

and coal data and shit, but the best comparison I've seen and it's debatable, I guess, is it kind of reminds me of the internet in its infancy. None of us or the app store is probably a better example. Because I remember when the app store first came out, the best thing was like, oh, check it out. It looks like I'm drinking a beer if I turn the phone sideways. And it's like, you never would have, I never would have been able to fathom some of the things that came out of it.

I don't know if that's a good example, though, because, like, that's a perfect example where Apple, they released the iPhone. It, like, it was incredible. And look at them now. They do, they didn't even have it ready to go. In their last one, they said, and this, this phone you're going to want to get because it will be capable of, it'll be compatible with Apple intelligence. What about Gen Moji? but I mean they like but when the Apple when the iPhone came out all of a sudden I had a map on my phone that I could walk around or explore the world that was like but what I'm saying is

that was just the very that was just the very start and then yeah the app store is now a fucking multi-billion dollar thing unto itself and when Steve Jobs first introduced it it was just kind of like okay it's this app store what is this going to be what does this entail nobody really knew because it was such a novel thing at the time that you could only begin to understand and absorb it just through the you know you were restricted by time just like we needed time and all of that. The start was immediate and I could I could go wow I can plug in an address and it'll take me there. It not I can plug in an address and it might take me there. It might take me to a raw. Sure. I guess all that's all that I'm trying to say is I still just have yet to see and it's

probably because I am a bit of a Luddite. I'm slow, which is really weird for me to say. You slow? Because I am very slow. Well, I guess I can just end the sentence there. But I'm slow to kind of like, dude, I try to use TikTok just even like making stuff. And the amount of tools and shit can just sometimes overwhelm my boomer brain. And same thing with the, yeah, with all the AI stuff.

I'm like, I get, I am optimistic. I am technologically optimistic. I am hopeful. I see AI as more of a... It's going to help us solve global warming, hopefully. Parkinson's disease. Diabetes. It's going to help us with all of these bigger things

that I'm probably not going to... Yeah, it's not going to help me fucking wipe my ass. Robot, might. Hey, gang. We want to take another quick break. We're talking about you being a stinky stinker. And us being a bit of stinky stinkers. Man, you stink.

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That equates to over 40% off your starter pack. Use code bays at shopmando.com. S-H-O-D-O-com. Please support our show and tell them we sent you. But smell fresher, stay dryer, and boost your confidence from head to toe with Mando. The robot might, yeah, if it's got delicate enough fingers. And that's why I'm taking it back to robots. Yes. Because what we do with our hands, what we do with our body, like physical labor, which is like, I don't know, a third to half of global GDP, like physical labor.

The vast majority of that physical labor are very simple things. very very simple right like uh and if you look at what AI is in terms of being unbelievably good at defined structured things right where there's not a lot of unknown variables where it's just like take like legal legal right like we're going to load up all the legal stuff and then you tell us how to draft this legal we've defined a set of rules for you and you work with an awesome it's basically perfect okay which is one of the things I have seen them talking about, which I do think is a better use of AI, these more narrow models where it's like, this one's really good at doing this specific thing.

And you can use it for that rather than this broad, open AI, like, it can be whatever you want it to be. Exactly. So let's just talk about, let's just, let's just pass what's going to be the next 10 years of robotics, which is the simple stuff, which is commercial and industrial work. We'll just pass that. We'll go right to the hard stuff, the home, the unstructured environments. These are the use cases for robots that we're not really going to see robots tackling until the 2030s, okay?

Probably mid-2030s is where we start the scale, the home stuff. So that's the unstructured, the hard stuff. So the hard stuff is doing what? Doing laundry, picking up around the house, cleaning the floors, maybe, maybe, maybe be putting dishes in the dishwasher and then putting them in the cabinet, taking your clothes and actually redoing your closet. This stuff is so, think about AI's capabilities right now. How easy would that be for today's AI to understand how to do those very strong things in

your home? Nothing. It's so simple and easy. Right. I want shirts in this drawer. I want pants in this drawer. It is so easy. It's not, you think there's going to be any hallucinization with AI there?

Absolutely not. It's doing the same 50 things over and over and over again. It's the most simple thing ever for AI to accomplish. The only thing that we have to have to overcome is expressing that AI through an embodied form. So we have to connect it to the physicality of machinery, right? So actuators, sensors, you know, a hand and an elbow and an arm, actually walking, balancing, doing this stuff. We're almost there, guys. Like, we're almost there.

We are years away from being able to properly express that. So you having a robot in your house at some point in the 2030s doing all the things I just told you about is pretty close to a guarantee. all right that's happening the only thing sitting between now and that happening is some fine-tuned hardware engineering to get a bit more dexterity

in fingers okay and hands and some safety measures okay for the robot and us working through engineering problems over the next five to eight years but that will happen you will have a robot in your house

by the at some point in 2030s doing all that stuff. And before that you're saying we're going to have them in factories doing all kinds of there's robots and factories this year. We have robots in factories. Like in a much larger scale. There are robots standing up in factories right now

doing human work. Robots that look like me and you. Like the very first ones just recently hit factories. And there's half a dozen to a dozen more types of factories this year that will be accepting robots and trials this year. Eumanoid robots doing real work. Yeah, I read that Amazon is spending $25 billion this year on efficiency,

which includes robotics and animation, and they're leading, the factory in which they have the most robotics in Louisiana is operating at 25% less cost. Have you been to an Amazon distribution plant? Never. You should do it. You can do it. It's a hard hat tour.

It's amazing, but they're not using, they're not really using humanoids yet. But yes, Amazon is developing, they have a humanoid project, they're developing humanoids. Apple, one of their highest priority projects, from what I understand, is building humanoids. That's happening. How come no one talks about Boston Dynamics? Every time I see their robots, they seem like by far the sophisticated. Well, okay, so Boston Dynamics are the robots you've been watching for 10 years, doing the flips and all the stuff. Those are the founder of Boston Dynamics, who led that company for years.

He is an experimental researcher. He was trying to push the limits on what a robot can do. He never had any desire to build a practical commercialized robot that would actually function and do practical stuff. So those robots you were looking at cost well over a million dollars. They had hydraulic actuators in them, right? The actuators are the muscles of the robots. None of this stuff was functional or reasonable for an actual commercially viable robot. So Google used to own Boston Dynamics, right?

They then sold it. Now Hyundai currently owns it. They are revamping their entire platform from the ground up to be a fully electronic, commercially viable. humanoid. Boston Dynamics will be one of the half a dozen or so leading robot companies building humanoids, but they're not at the top of their game right now. I don't think, I don't think they're like a top two or three player, but they're like right there. You've seen that video of it where it's like climbing up the scaffolding and bringing the guy's tools and stuff? Yeah. So yeah, they're there. They will be a major humanoid company. There's no doubt in my mind.

I smoked pot last night and I was thinking about robots a lot. I, I, I, I was prepping for this, and I was having a lot of fun really thinking about it, because I enjoy this stuff, too. I really like trying to envision the future. I geek out. Did you ever watch a show called Halt and Catch Fire? No. Chris, you would love it. I'm that serious.

It's all about, it's a fictionalized telling, it was on AMC, so you know it's good, all about this ragtag group of underdogs during the internet era, like just up and coming, trying to, they're, it's fun watching them. to figure out what the internet is going to be. They couldn't quite figure it out. They're like inventing browsers. It's really, really good. But I was thinking about that show and just kind of connecting it to what you said about being on the ground and with these people who are actively building the future. It gives you a front row seat and it gives you the ability to go, oh my God, I get it because

I'm with the, it would be like hanging out with Steve Jobs right before the iPhone launched. But, oh, geez, I'm getting around to. one of the things I was thinking last night as I'm pondering all this stuff is why humanoids? Why not? I was thinking the same thing. Why not go with like a fucking squid or something? Isn't there a more practical form?

And I know that one of the companies real fast is doing... Why don't they not have six arms? Yeah, well like, well because they do have that in auto manufacturing and stuff. But for the case of the unstructured home one, why not something with tentacles? Like, seriously. It's so funny.

That's the question that. Everyone, I was speaking at a university yesterday about humanoids and that was the first question. Fuck, I thought it was a unique question. No, that is the most common question. I get it. It's a question that... It just feels funny that we're like, just be just like us. Yeah. Well, think about it. We are perfect. So, first of all, the reason why this product is so good and has been so good for so long is because it's more or less one skew that they've been just obsessing over for the past, what, 15 years? I don't know how long has the iPhone been around for. When you have like a robot in a factory, a non-humanoid robot, just a piece of machinery, it's insanely high precision. And because it's so, it's like, it's like, I don't know, so many millions of hours, it could only,

like, move, like, not even a hair. That's how precise robots and factories are. They're really expensive. You have to iterate on them. And if you do anything different in the factory, you have to shut down the line, spend enormous amounts of time reconfiguring the machinery and the robots for the new product or the enhancement that you made. It's why historically people in the venture capital community has hated hardware and they've hated machinery. It's not been a real scalable venture scalable sector. Now, what's so special about humanoids is it's one product that does everything. But what's even more special about that is that the entire Earth, for obvious reasons,

has been built for humans. It's been built for this form factor, right? So I want you to think about every job on Earth. Every job on Earth for humans, a human is capable of doing with their two legs and their two arms and their eyesight, and they be able to turn their head around and do this stuff, right? It's that simple. The world is ready for humanoids right now. We have somewhere between 50 million and 350 million jobs that were short in physical labor by 2030,

just in the manufacturing, industrial kind of warehouse, logistics, and health care setting. So that's hundreds of millions of physical laborers that we need, that we don't have in five years because of shifting demographics. people are getting older, right? Young people don't want to work these jobs. First of all, there's way less young people, and the young people we have don't want to work in a factory moving sheet metal eight to ten hours a day every day of their life.

We're spoiled now. We don't want to do that stuff. And if you want to replace that human work, or if you want to offer all the world's companies, the ability to grow and actually expand with more humans without having more humans to do that. The only way to do that is with humanoids today because you could literally throw them in a setting and tomorrow they're working. You don't have to change the lines. You don't have to change the factory settings.

They just start working right now. And your guy, the CEO of Apptronic, actually, I was reading an interview with him just yesterday. He thinks that the most versatile setup is going to be modular torsos that can be put on any kind of base, be it wheels, bipedal. There's a huge number of advantages to legs. We think legs will win the day overall, but there's this problem with legs that the robots can fall over. And so in some cases, you can have wheels. The beauty of robots is you can have your cake and you can eat it too, and that you could build them to be modular. So Apollo is modular at the torso.

So if you want to put it on wheels, you can throw it on wheels. So here's the thing. Remember when I talked about everything has to get a little better? We're early days. We're in pilots, the articulation, the sensors, the actuators, the connecting dots between the artificial intelligence and the hardware itself, like melding those worlds and tweaking, these things could go faster and faster and faster. We think these humanoids are going to be going 150% of human speed at their peak.

But it's going to take us for probably years. to get there. But you have the world's best engineers, okay? The best engineers in the world are working every day to improve the performance of these humanoids. So what's great is that you can take just the top half. They're still working on the arms and the, you know, and the head and the neck and the hands and the sensors and all this stuff to get them to connect with AI and go faster and faster and faster. Yeah, you can just cut it off and put it on a stick and just use the top part. Or guess why? You can throw wheels on the bottom.

And instead of walking with bi-pedal, they can actually move a lot quicker if that particular setting is adaptable to a wheeled humanoid, right? So, and if you just need it to stay in the same exact spot and you don't even need it to move like two, three feet, put it on a pole, fine. But you still have one product that you're working on, like one product. And that product is getting better every like 60 days, every 60 days to the point where when we hit 2,000, or whatever it is, that you guys are going to get to have one of these in your house and it's going to be like magic. It's going to be like living in a Jetson's age. And the reason that we're going to be able to get there is because we don't have engineers split working on 800 different skews of robot right now, one with 20 arms and one with spinning poros. Like we're not,

you know what I'm saying? Like we're not wasting or limited resources trying to do 800 different things with these robots. We're just trying to perfect one robot that can do every single thing that a human could do. And if you can achieve just that, just do what the humans, let's not try to do 10 times more than what a human can do yet. Let's just try to do what a human can do. If you could replicate that, you just created an infinite labor machine that will radically shift civilization, like radically. Now, but hold on, but what you're talking about, the robot, about with eight arms. That's coming to. Okay. There is not there is not a single humanoid CEO on this planet who will tell you that they're going to stop with the human form. Yeah. We need to get to the

human form because because the goal at the end of that rainbow is improving every human life. Okay. It's too big of a goal not to achieve that first. And by the way, the financial goal is monstrously big. I think these humanoid companies will likely be the most valuable companies on Earth once they achieve that. Generalized robotics, right? Once we achieve that, which is only years away. But they're all thinking past it already. Like, we all know where this is headed. And this is headed. Once we get there, we'll continue to evolve. We'll evolve the humanoid form factor to be even better. When we hit 100% of human, 50% of human speed, we're going to maybe add arms. We're going to add other things, right? Why not? Why not do that? Are you worried at all about

labor issues, humans being put out of jobs? I'm so excited about it. What do you say to those people who are concerned about losing their jobs or not only from robotics? Their job being automated away. I'm short-term, fearful, long-term, super excited about it, okay? Because there's never been a human displacing technology in our entire history of mankind that hasn't created more jobs and more use cases for humans, ever. So do you think this is going to be the first one? I would say, just to counter that, I would say productivity has shot up over the last decades.

Wages have stagnated. So, like, wages have not matched our productivity. So you're comparing wages to productivity, fine, but why would they need to match productivity necessarily? Like, you can say maybe it would be great if they could, but, but, but if, okay, just let's just use a theoretical example here. If, if you're able to 10x productivity and you're also able to increase wages by 30%, it's a win-win on both sides. The wages don't need to increase in lockstep with productivity to have it be a good thing for wages. Yeah, but there's a furthering, uh, wealth inequality in this country that's like, extremely problematic. Would you rather have, if I told you right now that the wealth

inequality would continue to widen over the next 20 years, but all wealth, right, all factors would climb for every person as a result of that, but some people were going to benefit more than others, but everybody would benefit, meaning the quality of life would go up for everyone, but the quality of life for some is going to go up more. By the way, I love saying, because the reality is quality of life for like super rich people doesn't actually go up. Like I tweeted this the other day. It's like the utility, the happiness utility over like $10 million. It's like so nominal, I think for most people. And in most cases, people just get more miserable at a certain point. So you know what I'm saying? It's just like it's not like they're

living, but let's just be clear. They're not living better lives. They're not living better lives. They're not living better lives. At a certain point, I think they're just hoarding resources, which is problematic. So you think they're hoarding resources. There are only so many yachts that are rich persons can build for themselves. I don't think poor people want a yacht. I think no, no, no, no. What I'm saying is there's only so many yachts that an individual rich person can build for themselves. Yeah, they're hoarding resources in the sense that they're even building one yacht true. But I think what a lot of these people are doing is they're basically spinning the wheel of innovation, right? They're kind of pushing that in ways that they can. You know,

I consider myself, like, I want to be a philanthropist, right? Yeah. But that's probably because, like, I don't want to continue to have to manage. I don't want to manage. I don't want to manage. 100,000 employee business. That seems like misery to me. The fact that some of these rich people are still willing to do that is pretty cool. It's hard. It's a nightmare. Yeah.

I get what you're saying about it's kind of like a rising tide lifts all boats. A rising tide does lift all boats. I think that's what people say about our current situation. The common line is like, do you think we have more or less today than we, generally than 20 years ago. People will go like... We have a lot more. People will say like, you know,

even the poorest person in America lives better than a whatever medieval king or something like that. But I don't know if that's like a... I don't know if that's a good justification for the way we live necessarily or the way we've designed our society that leaves so many people behind. Are you worried that all of these resources and stuff are going to the wrong direction or something? I'm more worried. I don't necessarily, like, see a future where people are really, you know, putting, prioritizing ordinary people in this new, in this very new world we're entering.

Are you, where some of the, some of the labor forces essentially, yeah, I, like, would we be venturing into a UBI kind of situation? Yeah, Andrew Yang was like pushing, honestly, a lot of people thought he was. kind of crazy. This like UBI thing. He's talking about how all these in when he came on the scene in 2019, I think a lot of people are like, what is he talking about? All these jobs are going to go away. Trucking is going to be automated. Warehouse jobs are going to be automated. And he was like, we need to be thinking about how to navigate that world. Yeah, what are we going to do with all these people? Yeah. Yeah. We can debate the transitionary period of time when you have leaps in technology that displaced jobs, that's an important, very important debate to have it.

Like, you have to figure that out because there's often a lot of pain during those transitionary periods for humans. And we need to do a better job at that in the future than we've done in the past. But there's never been a time when we don't all fall in a better place. It's just never happened. And there's never been a better system than the system we have. have right now to continue to push forward so that we can house and feed more people so that we do ultimately have medications that will save more babies and more kids. And, you know, like, yeah,

it sucks that like only certain people in our society have access to bleeding edge medication, to bleeding edge, you know, type of all of it. But do you know what? What's the alternative? them willing to spend that money to do that, right, to have that, eventually lets it filter down to the rest of us. Would the alternative be none of us get it, which is insane. It's absolutely insane. It's like you look at the fact that we have pharma companies and pharma companies sometimes make lots of money. Biotech companies make lots of money and they charge crazy amounts of money for their drugs. Okay.

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If they can't get the return, if they can't get the return, turn, those companies don't exist. The medications do not exist. Oftentimes those are government funded researchers and things like that. Government funded stuff will continue. Yeah. But think about the not government. Think about the not government funded stuff. You want to talk about all the not government stuff. It's fun of it. Like, I am happy. I am more than happy to not have access to that and die because of it because my grandkids is going to. Yes, absolutely. We can't all, you can't give everybody a billion dollars worth of it's just not real it's it's it's a fantasy land i think we're talking about different things which is uh i don't want to get too into the weeks i was just no it's a

great conversation no one has this conversation well i mean i think currently like you could map that on to our current world where there are things that could be uh that people are locked out of for example like the medical system in our country is a perfect perfect example of uh having access to things that they should very much have access to. Yes. Insulin, costing insane amounts of money. Any of these, like, very easy to produce medications. An ambulance ride.

Ambulance ride. These are perfect examples of we already live in a place where we could provide these things, but we do not. We choose not to. And I'm not talking about bleeding edge technology. I'm talking about ambulances. If something goes wrong, you get stuck in an ambulance, all of a sudden you're hit with, what, three to $6,000 bill?

If I understand you correctly, you're suggesting that, hey, we're already in such an age of abundance where I find as we go into the future it's going to be more and so when you talk about like would you be more willing to to accept more inequality and stuff like that I don't think it I think we just have a different vision which is okay I just no I mean I mean listen like like expectations have always climbed of humanity right our expectations have gone up because you know very few of us expected to have any of the stuff that we have today when I was growing up, right? 30, 40 years ago, our expectations just climb and climb and climb. I don't care if there's someone else that has a 10,000

times more money than I do as long as, you know, the floor of humanity continues to rise. But do you think you would care if you couldn't afford health care? What I care about is the floor of humanity getting better. Period. Period. That's what I care about. And if I have some trillionaire out there in the world, if that doesn't matter to me as long as the system in place allows those who need it most to continue to climb higher and higher and higher and higher. And the data shows that over the course of the past few decades here, that's been exactly the case. It's been exactly the case. The floor is getting higher. um those that are most in need that are most in need right we need to continue to you know to allow them to

have better medications and better health care right and so the truth is like you know the ambulance will pick you up though no matter who you are i think yeah my whether you can pay for or not it's not going to not pick you up and take you to the hospital and that's pretty cool my hope is that but whether or not you can pay for or not they won't give you insulin or life-saving drugs maybe my my hope is i don't know about that there are people who died from rationing their insulin and yeah because they couldn't get they yeah and that that needs to be that needs to be solved right but i think they're they're two they're two separate two separate issue getting back to the robots um i mean i know one of the robot CEOs who i engage with probably most often his entire mission

and doing everything that he's doing um is to basically um raise the bar for quality of life for all humans. So he wants to raise the bar, and this is Aptronic, right? So is the one in Texas? Yes, he talks about this all the time. His whole motivation is raising the bar for quality of life for all humans on Earth. All throughout life, extending life, and especially raising the quality of life at end of life. Because that's when the quality of life for so many of us drops horribly.

Right. we have a bunch of old people we're not going to be able to take care because the cost to have around the clock care could I've been quoting it at $175,000 a year I just have a close friend tell me that their parent, they're paying $1,000 a day around the clock care now

which almost no one in this world can afford to pay for. That's all out of pocket? Out of pocket. Yeah, the insurance won't cover it. You know, so I'm like, how do we bring that to every person? on earth because every person deserves that like every it would be awesome to bring that to every

person right like to be able to get you to the bathroom to where your your son or daughter doesn't have to wipe your butt when you're 90 years old and immobile and you're you know spoiling the bed like every day like this is this is real there's hundreds of millions of people around the world that are dealing with that every day and so how are we going to solve that problem we're going to solve that problem with robots. I hope that it just doesn't become something where being driven by profits and ever higher revenues and better expanding margins and stuff, it doesn't end up being the case that it, like most things, becomes prohibitive, prohibitively expensive for, uh, let me tell you

something. It's going to be prohibitally expensive for most people for a long time. And then it's not. Gotcha. If you have a better way to get to that end goal. then let's talk about it. So you tell me how we're going to develop the robots and have them be super cheap on day one, right? You have a better system.

What's the law? Is it Moore's law? What? The law of the doubling of transistors and stuff? It's kind of a similar. Here's the thing. Right now we have a few robot companies and you have a lot of wealthy people investing in them because they want to make a lot of money for the most part.

Right. Okay. I actually wish we could all invest in all of them. But, you know, our laws are so jacked in this country with accredited investors that that's just not the case. So, but you have people that are investing a lot of money in these companies and a lot of them are going to go out of business and they're going to lose all their money. A lot of the robot companies? Yeah. Okay.

And there are people going to lose a lot of money, right? They're investing a ton of money and they're going to lose it all. Some of those companies are going to survive. and they're going to likely to become trillion-dollar companies. And the people that invested money in those companies, when they didn't know if they were going to lose it all or become something, are going to become very rich and very wealthy as a result of that. The robots are going to be very expensive the first few years that they're out,

so expensive that no human is going to have them for their home. It's only going to be used for the highest use cases in commercial factories going to customers that will eventually spend billions of dollars a year on those robots under RAS contracts. Elon said he like envisions it as almost as affordable as a car. Yeah, 20 grand or something.

Yeah, you're going to buy a robot for like the same price as a car or something. Not any time soon, but yes, eventually. Eventually that will happen. And the reason why that will happen is because right now we have commercial clients around the world that are spending insane amounts of money for these robots.

and we'll spend that much for the next five to seven years. Way more money than any of us would want to spend on the robots. And they're going to get better and they're going to get cheaper. And then we're going to start to scale them out like Elon's saying. And eventually really wealthy people will have these robots in their houses. And they'll have them for elder care, right? And then, you know, it will start to trinkle down. And eventually, I hope sooner or rather than later, they'll become reasonable

that everyone will have this. Can I ask how you feel about Elon's claims? Do you believe him or do you think he's kind of a faker? Which claims? I mean... It'd be insane to say that you believe Elon entirely or don't believe him. Right, right. Just over the past however many years,

the amount of things he said are going to come true that haven't come true. It seems like people are catching on to his ruse. We're not the biggest fans of him on this show because he's constantly just like... I mean, me as a traitor, just watching him constantly fucking bullshit and get away with it. But do you think he's like a real player in the robot space and he's got actual, the capability to do this kind of stuff? Yeah, I mean, do I believe anything that he says outright? No. I mean, no. I think a lot of the things that he is saying about robots and humanoids in the long term is absolutely true. I think his timelines, when it comes to Elon's timelines, you always have to take that with a grain of salt, right?

I do not believe Elon's timeline. Absolutely not. I put out a tweet thread at Chris Camillo in January of 2024. I saw that. 15 part tweet. And it was like if Elon can put out a million robots by the end of 2030 and have a million robots in circulation, this is for commercial work. That could theoretically be a $10 trillion valuation for his robot unit based on current kind of multiples and robot economics, as I know robot economics were going to be rolled out over the next few years. So that I felt was reasonable. Does it mean it's going to happen in 2030? Yeah. It might happen in 2013, right? I don't think it's going to happen much before 2030.

but it could happen anywhere between the end of 2030 and maybe 2013-1-32. Do you think we see his robots coming out first or full self-drive? It's a good question because I've never been, I've always been really skeptical of FSD since day one. Wow. Yeah, I've been the guy for 10 or 12 years, I've been telling every single person and I got a lot of Tesla friends. It's BS. It's BS. You're nowhere near FSD. I was like and I would map it out for them

and I was like I was right here we are like 10, 12 years later we don't have F we do not really have what was what was promised so but we're getting closer now every day this is the timeline I thought we would be on like if you asked me 10 years ago

like FSD like when will we have an actual robo taxi like actual robo taxis widely in the world I'd be like 2030 that's what I would have been saying in like the late 2000 teens. I was like, I don't know. 2030, I can see us having like robotaxies like scaled out in the world in a meaningful way. I still think that's when we'll start to see the scaling.

Kathy Wood thought it'd be now five years ago. She thought we were going to have flying robot tax. Oh, yeah. God bless her. Which brings me to, well, a couple things as usual. I guess the, you know, we talked about these things are the AI. is the brain and the robot is the body, I hate to pull the Terminator card, but is there any part of you that's concerned

by seeing some of the instances of these AIs kind of having a weird level of self-awareness or introspection or just kind of the way that they interact with each other, with us, does it upset you or give you pause at least to give these things a body when... There are many unknowns with the way that these brains work. Well, we talked about human form factor.

Like, why are the human? If you're concerned about like Terminator style and body-day-I, trust me, the humanoid form factor is the last thing you need to be worried about, okay? Awesome. No, there's a lot to be worried about. Not the humanoid form factor. What are you worried about? Yeah. Why not worried about?

I'm worried about nanodrones, okay? Oh, sure. There are a, there are a thousand iterations of embodied AI that are terrifying. What's a name of a drone? You now watch Black Mirror, like, teeny tiny little. Oh, okay. Imagine yourself like opening up an Amazon box and five like tiny little centimeters, literally fly out attached to your neck and inject poison in you and you don't even know what the hell just happened. We're just a few years away from that being able to happen.

That's like easy. That's easy. That's like, that's what you should be concerned about. So what do we do about that? I mean, not walking humanoids that are kind of slow at first. Like, there are so many form factors that would be so much better for like causing terrible harm on humans. Yeah. I want to invest in those companies, man.

No, you need to be worried about like, I'm worried about like drone technology. I'm worried about all kinds of other bots that would be that you couldn't that would be quicker moving right uh harder to detect like you can't just a humanoid's a big 150 pound right I mean this is a big question you might not be able to answer but like what do you how do you envision a future with those kinds of things like is that I mean should we be worried about that there's always something to be worried about yeah that's the thing you're going to be worried about in 20 years same way we're worried of...

Listen, I was worried about nuclear war when I was a kid, right? Like, in some areas of the world, you're worried about typhoons, and some areas of the world you're worried about mudslides. Like, in the future, you're going to be worried about AI and embodied AI and all kinds of crazy stuff. Absolutely. Yeah, you're going to be worried. I don't know how we're going to figure it out.

It's not my problem. I can't figure it out. I just need to stop worrying and love the AI. Love the... Well, there's good and bad to come out of everything, right? I think the humanoid form factor is the good that comes out of embodied AI because we're actually taking AI and we're embodying it in a way that can become the ultimate human tools. Meaning, we don't... It's really easy for us to sit here and talk, but the reality is some people have to work in a factory for 40 years and by the time they turn age 60.

65, they're debilitated. They can barely move. They're having multiple back surgeries and they are in a terrible place. Some people are working in minds, their entire life. This is terrible. We do not want humans in those jobs. Our entire goal as a society, a civilization, should be to create things that humans are not having to do the dull, dirty, dangerous jobs that so many humans are doing outside of this life here in L.A. in this nice neighborhood, right? So that's what we should be focused on. Like, and like at least one of the CEOs, and quite honestly, I think all the three big CEOs in this space at Apptronic, Tesla, and figure, at least here in North America, are laser focused on that. They're trying to radically improve civilization and

humanity through the embodiment of AI by allowing these bots to do things for us. They're tools. They're literally, they're tools because, all right, I want you to think about what jobs were like 70, 80 years ago, what we thought was a normal job. None of those people back then, if we would have told them what we would be doing in 2025 that a podcast would be your job, they would laugh at you. They'd be like that you're not contributing to you. You're not contributing.

No, you didn't even really, I mean, barely. I get what you're saying. You know what I'm saying? Like most of the, like, oh, I developed memes for a living. They're like, what the hell is it? What do you talk? It's a funny picture. No, they're like, guys, you're just making stuff up.

You're just, you're just busying yourselves. You've gotten to a point in humanity where some section of civilization has the privilege of busying themselves and pretending like they're contributing to the world when you're really not. That's what they would have told you 80 years ago, okay? If we would have described a lot of the jobs that we're in today. Now, they would even say the companies that you're doing that job for, like Facebook or whatever, or meta or Twitter. They're like, that company doesn't even need to exist. That's stupid.

So, like, no matter what job you're doing at that company, they'd be like, all of y'all are busying yourselves doing something stupid. Now, they might have a point. Okay. They might have a point, right? So where we're headed in the next 30 years, if you could look forward, right, and to see what jobs will look like in 30 years, we would say, come on, that's like UBI style stuff. Like, you're not actually working. I'm a drone operator.

You guys have reinvented what work is to make yourself feel like you have some utility in this world. Because the reality is we don't need any of that crap that you say you're, like, we're looking forward 30 years. We don't need that. That's dumb. That's actually like, you get what I'm saying? I think of the NPC guys on TikTok who do the fucking, you know, they're, have you seen the, you've seen the NPC. Yeah, of course. I think of that. I think a, yeah, podcasting. I, it sound, I, if I had to unify all of this, I would say I respect and admire the optimism. And I hope that it pans out and turns out to be true that these people, that, the head of Apptronic, the head of figure, and Elon Musk, and the board of directors and everybody involved, the investors and stuff, I hope that their vision of such a future where

everybody benefits, where it drastically improves the quality of life, the affordability of things like health care, of shelter, of food. I hope that that comes true. It will. I hope that you're right. It's almost, it's like, we can debate the timelines for that. Exactly. But it's just like the invention of medicine. It will. Yeah. It will. Like the invention of the modern home.

It will shelter the world. And I hope that it doesn't turn into, in as much as we can't predict and envision what you were just talking about. I hope that there is no alternate timeline where it's like, oh, shit, we're all just cogs in the wheel and slaves to these, you know, oligarchic. I think that's what I worry about, especially when you're talking about. like these CEOs, I don't know the CEOs of the other two. Obviously, we're very familiar with Elon Musk.

I think watching him tinker around with the government and his Doge stuff is, it's like a bit embarrassing as a country. You know, he's tweeting out like, ah, shit, we need more FAA, what are they, flight traffic traffic controllers because I accidentally fired them all. I don't think, I can't speak to you. I don't think. Did he fire them all? Did he fire any, though?

He got rid of a bunch of probationary. FAA employees that we now technically need and they don't have, he can't get in contact with them because he canceled their government emails and stuff like that. I think a lot, I think there's a like, there's a lot of, on both sides, there's a lot of misinformation on both sides of this whole Doge thing. Oh, he tweeted out himself that he was looking for more. He is looking for more. Yeah, but I think, listen, this, I don't know how this is a political, like how he's doing it

a whole nother thing. No, no, yeah. I don't even mean, I don't even mean politically. It's, it's absolutely insane what we have allowed the last 60, 70 years to accumulate in terms of, of just irresponsible management, right? Irresponsible management of our government. And it happens in every government around the world. This is not like a U.S. issue. This is just what happens when you have large organizations. This is why we hate big companies, right? Big companies do the exact same thing. So I think it's very much needed what's happening right now with Doge. The question is the mechanics of how to actually execute on it. And by the way, you know how many presidents and administrations have tried to execute on this? And none of them have succeeded. None have succeeded.

right? So I think we all have to just, this is a wait and see. Like, I actually have no clue how this is going to end. Like, good, bad. I have no clue. But I'm not interested. No control over it. I wasn't even saying politically, I meant more, I think we have a different view in the sense that like, I'm not seeing someone like thinking very carefully and act responsibly. And that's okay. We have a different view of it. But that's where my kind of view is he's not. But the thing is I think what he's trying to do is actually do something he's like so he manages his companies like startups and they what happens is they end up breaking a lot of things they end up doing a lot of things wrong because when you're a startup you're just breaking through walls and instead of spending you know two years

trying to come to a decision you come to decision in two hours and you know 40% of the time that decision's going to be the terrible one and then you're going to have to go back and fix it later but you're moving and you're innovating and you're doing things as humans that you just can't do in large organizations. And I, man, trust me, I have, I am not like a huge Elon guy by any means. Like, I'm not like a, oh, a big, everybody knows this about me. I'm in the opposite of being like just an Elon fan. But this concept of getting in there and rattling things, um, you have to be careful because these are real people. These are humans and you're messing with their lives, you know, There needs to be a balance there.

There needs to be a balance there, for sure. But we've never been able to figure out yet. So this is a new way. It's kind of like there's no good way to go about doing it. Yeah. There's no good way. There's no good way. But it does need to happen.

Like it has to happen. And it's such a monumental undertaking. Have you guys worked at a big company ever? Yeah. Not that big. One and a half billion dollar. company. I worked at BuzzFeed. That was the biggest company I ever worked. For a long time? A couple of years. Have you worked at a big company? I'm trying to, I worked at a big auction house.

I'm not sure how large it is. I haven't worked for the government ever, but I've worked for some big companies. And let me tell you, it's insane. It's insane. When I tell you that like probably most big companies, you could probably lay off half the employees like at every big company in the world like if you if you were focused on it and it's just how it is it's the truth that no one talks about and it it's it's it's a reallocation of resources it's like it's a reallocation of of us as humans doing things that we should be doing versus doing things that we shouldn't do I also think it's kind of a prioritization of resources too because the grace do you know the grace commission from the Reagan administration not

really. That's probably the most famous example of something that you could mirror on to what Doge is doing. It was basically exactly that. He got, is it Jay Peter Grace? He was just a industrialist and staffed privately, no federal employees involved. And they basically went in and they made, it was like a 2,000 page recommendation of all these things they could do. And they said, you know, you could save hundreds of billions of dollars. But, you know, they're talking about doing stuff like, well, if we cut all. all these benefits. And it's like, yes, but we're making a choice as a country to prioritize,

taking care of people after they retire, offering good pensions and stuff like that. So I don't know if that's like, yeah, I don't, getting rid of that is not necessarily like a cost saver that might be, that could just be contributing more problems to our system where it's like, okay, well, now we have all these people out of work who can't afford to live their end of care life all these things yeah so no no i listen i you have to dissect everything everything that's being done the cool thing about doge and again i'm on the fence here like i i'm not like uh they're doing it right they're doing it wrong i i like to always say less and just and just like wait i'm always like let's see you know let's see what's happening uh that they're documenting

everything every single thing they're doing is being documented and like fully exposed on their website. Yeah. So you can go row by row. I've gone. It's a mess. Yeah. They're not really...

But you've never seen it before. Like, no one's ever actually exposed anything before. Well, things show up. They disappear the next day. They're doing a horrible job at accounting all this. I don't want to get into... We don't have to get into discussion.

No, no, you know, you're probably right. Because they have like, what? They had 40 grown to like 100 employees doing it. All of a sudden, $8 billion disappeared off their ledger. How much? Eight billion. Well, what does that mean disappeared? So they said they saved $8 billion by cutting whatever program.

And then all of a sudden they realized that, well, that was wrong. Yeah, they were probably wrong. They were probably wrong. Yeah, it was something like that. So it's just. Here's the thing. At the end of the day, like I know we're talking about trading and investing. But since I was a kid, I've been a builder.

Right? So like I built companies like two. So I've been doing like building companies. And let me tell you, it's hard. it is hard when it's hard to do you know it's really easy to critique it's really hard to do stuff even just building this little thing it's really really hard to do stuff um and the the hardest part about doing stuff is the extreme amount of failure every day in mistakes you continue to screw stuff up every day when you're doing stuff but it's doing it like taking on big problems and

doing it so Elon I'm looking at that picture you have up there right Elon, again, I am not the Elon fan. Like, I'm not the Elon. I'm here kind of defending him, but I'm not the Elon fan. He's obviously kind of out there and wild and crazy in the way that he thinks and the things that he does. But he's definitely the one thing that can't be argued, he does stuff. You know what I'm saying? And I think he is doing stuff for the right reason.

He believes so, at least, right? I don't think he's doing it to enrich. himself, right? Like, I don't think he doesn't give a crap about money. I mean, he literally doesn't care about money. He's going to, like, $50 or $60 billion bonus just to get him to be motivated enough for. What do you think? But he, he's doing that for control, right? Like, he takes all of his resources and puts them back into building, building. You need resources to build, right? So it's like, you need that. It's so funny because I was just, this is so random. I was telling a guy yesterday. I was like because i don't i'm also a guy i don't care like i i do everything for my foundation right

like i'm building a foundation for pediatric cancer and leukemia and autism and then animal welfare those are like my four things i really care about i was like i'm not spending a dollar on anything but that and i was like i there's nothing that i've ever wanted until we traded luka to to um the lakers and now i'm like damn maybe i need this robot stuff to go really well so i can get a 51% interest in the mask to get Luca back, you know, for our city, for our city. And like, that would be the most selfish thing.

I haven't wanted to do something selfish with money in so long, but I'm like, God, and then maybe I'll just make the team into a foundation for causes, you know, but get Luca back first. That might take some time. But I don't think everything that he does. I mean, he's not doing the yacht

thing. He just not doing any of that stuff. Like, he's just... No, he wants to go to Mars. He wants to die on Mars. Yeah, I don't even think he's, He cares about himself. He has a theory that thesis that I don't really love, but like one of it, one of his thesis is multi-planetory to give us optionality. Yeah.

I don't get it personally. We got a perfectly beautiful world. Dude, true. Yeah, yeah. I don't think it's something good to be focused on. But he's not just focused on that. That's the thing. That's like one thing.

If you look at what he's focused on with robotics, for example, which is what I care about, he gets it he gets it he gets it we're going to redefine what an economy is we're going to redefine our civilization once we've achieved this generalized autonomy and we've created an infinite labor machine I mean if you can go back throughout all of human history and said gosh wouldn't it be great to have an infinite labor machine what we can do what we can build you just described the guy who invented slavery what that's not that's what that's literally what happened they were like God, if we just had an unlimited labor force. An unlimited labor force that was not humans, okay?

My problem with Elon is what I think that he is so, he's so several orders of magnitude away from, I mean, he's twice as rich as the second richest guy, Jeff Bezos, I believe, or I don't even know who it is. He's so beyond. normal in every sense of the word that I don't I can't really even fathom what it's like to be him what he's thinking about what he's aiming to do part of me thinks that at this point he just truly I see like his inner child and just a guy who desperately wants to be liked and be approved

of by those he perceives as cool um whether it be fucking Joe Rogan or the public at large or funny people on Twitter that he once admired who now think he's a piece of shit And when you got a guy like that who for me is so hard to pin down on so many different levels, I'm like, what the fuck is he going to do? What is he capable of doing with Doge? It worries me. But then, yeah, there's part of me that's like, I can't even fucking think about this because it stresses me out so much. I think we all fall in a trap often.

And it's natural to where we want to. love or hate everything that any individual person is doing based on our own alignment or perceived alignment with that person or their affiliations. I think Elon is a really easy person to hate. Okay. I get it. I definitely get it. But I think it's really important to understand that you could hate Elon as a person. You could hate certain things that he's done. And there are things that he's doing that are just like objectively amazing for humanity and amazing for our economy and our civilization, our country, the whole world, honestly, right? And so like I would, you should listen to this three-hour Rogan podcast. I'm only halfway through it. The one that just

came out with it. The one that just came out yesterday. I'm only halfway through. You have to. You have to. You don't have a choice. And the reason why you don't have a choice is because it's too important, not to fully understand. Listen, he doesn't do a lot of stuff where he's sitting for three hours. You can kind of get a sense for his motivations, okay? You can get a sense for why he's doing what he's doing. Why did he do some of the things he's done the last year? Okay, politically, this is the first podcast where I think that really surfaces. Now, you can agree or disagree, but I think what came out in this podcast is that, you know, He felt that he was bullied and he was abused and he was harmed and mistreated by the Biden administration.

And he goes into detail as to various things that happened. Now, again, agree or don't agree with him. It's really interesting because you know when you see like what turned him, like what turned him so quickly to take such a emboldened move towards a political party in the way that he did. over the last year. And he really, he talks about that. And when you hear it, again, you can not agree with it, but it makes sense. It's, you now see why he did what he did in his mind.

Yeah, but I don't, I don't find that, that compelling. I find that, like, we know exactly why he's doing it, right? He's, he's systematically going in and dismantling places that are trying to regulate him and his businesses. It's all very transparent. I think, if anything, you're describing something that, hearing him say that, is, is quite scary to me. The richest man in the world lashing out at our government for trying to draw any kind of,

whether or not you agree with them is, it doesn't matter, any kind of regulatory bounds around him. And, you know, and to Ben's point about, like, him so far beyond kind of normalcy and anything like that, when you reach that point, you cannot, I don't think you're the person well equipped to make decisions for what is good for, like, the world at large.

because ordinary people make up the world at large. I think what he's saying, though, it's just, it's just objectively... You should listen to it before you comment on it, because, again, like, what you just said is not what he said. Like, I'm referring to a podcast and what he said. Like, he's referring to things like they were trying to go up and save these astronauts right now, right? And he's making claims that should be debated and critiqued. Yeah, but they've done that online. What?

He's had that argument with the, like, astronauts and stuff. It's been... What argument? About how Biden was using political power to not let him use SpaceX to go get these astronauts and that they were stranding them for political reasons. Oh, and the commander of the ISS responded and he called him retarded. Yeah. So these, like when he makes a claim, then the claim should be validated.

It should be debated. But like, he's made like multiple claims in this interview and each one of them like should be seen for the claim that it is. right he's saying that no they moved the day to after right after the election when he can get it and now they're doing it and they're going and they're actually getting them right so like like but actually look at each of the claims he's making in his head they're very real right and so yeah i think they are yeah they're they're real but there's absolutely truth on both sides and i think absolutely truth just real fast i i i get what you're saying about why all of us should listen because it is one of the most powerful men in the world talking at length.

Not the most powerful man. Yeah, sure. Talking at length about his reasoning, his plans, like him or not, I personally very much dislike him. It'll be very hard for me to listen to him because his fucking voice is like daggers in my ears. But it's still, it's, you're right. And I try to do that a lot more just generally about like, all right, I got to sit down and pay attention to the world around me, like it or not, judgment, whatever. It's, as I've said on the show before, I'm powerless for all of this. It's just I like to see where the wind is blowing.

I'm going to tell you something right now. What he has been doing on X, what community notes, which I've been following from the very beginning, is one of the most extraordinary things that I think has come out of Elon the last few years. One of the biggest things for humanity. And he's pissed. Yeah, he wants to get rid of him. What? The community notes checked him.

on the ISS thing and he got pissed. Okay, he got pissed. Have you been tracking? Are you in community notes? Have you engaged with it? I've never used it. I don't even know how. It's nice like if you like or engage with a tweet, it will later notify you if it's

been community noted. So it will say like, hey, just so you know that, tweet you liked, someone corrected it. I didn't know that. I've never gotten that. So we, which I do think is a good feature. We can all agree that there's been a tremendous amount of fake news. is coming from every piece of the political spectrum the past five, seven, eight years, right? This has been incredibly damaging for our country in numerous ways, no matter where you fit

on the political spectrum. Well, you agree. Right? And so we know that we can neither trust any media or anyone on X or any other platform at their word. Period. The degree to which we could have trusted them at any point in history is debatable. But certainly we're now smart enough and we're seeing transparency now that we know that no one can be trusted at face. No one. Community notes are the most spectacular thing that I've seen in my lifetime to kind of counteract that. It is unreal. And this is why Zuckerberg is taking community notes and putting it on meta. I'm going to tell you something right now. It is, is unbelievable. It's the first time where I see something, and I'm part of the community notes platform. So I get in there. I'm engaging with it. I'm actually researching and I'm uploading stuff and I'm voting and upboating. It's the first time that we have a mechanism

to quickly identify things that are exaggerated or fake news entirely, right? Like, it's unbelievable. And yet no one else is willing to do that. Like, no one else is willing to do that. This is, this is, this is like we're solving the biggest problem with this community notes to the event that his direct competitor has come out and said, you know what? That is unreal. We're going to start doing that. So how does that work exactly? It's like you have to be vetted to get into the community notes.

I mean, almost everyone I know has been invited. If you're engaging in any meaningful, you get invited. You join community notes. Once you join community notes, you can either, other people will do research based on a post and say, hey, that's actually not true or that's actually exaggerated or it's being twisted in a certain way. And here's the proof to show it. And they'll cite references to show it. And then you don't have to do that if you don't want. You can just go in, check their notes and say, this is beneficial.

The public needs to see this community note. They did a good job citing it. They're using neutral language. They're actually addressing the problem. They're critiquing it in a proper way. Enough people vote that this is a good community note and it goes on X for everyone to see. And then that misinformation that could have skewed anything, right? A public opinion immediately gets resolved.

Yeah. It's amazing. We've all fallen for a fake screenshot. We all do. Oh, baby. My boomer brain, I believe everything I see you. I mean, that's with AI. and everything. It's like, I don't know, I saw it. Is it not real?

I saw the video of Donald Trump and Joe Biden singing in Chinese folks on each other. I brought up community notes for a reason. Elon has done a lot of stuff, okay? Potentially a lot of stuff bad. Every individual, unless they're doing good stuff and bad stuff, right? And so what I'm trying to say is like there are some very good things happening. Community notes is one of them. Maybe there are some outstanding elements of Doge, right, that will be really good for this country, really good for our economy, really good for the public, ultimately will lead us in a better place, 10, 15, 20 years or now. I don't know. Just like, just view each thing on their own just because they're under the Elon umbrella or the Trump umbrella, whatever, doesn't necessarily mean it's all good or all bad. I do that with Elon with electric cars and with the rockets.

I know that these are good things. These are virtuous things that we as a society, as a culture, as a species, should strive toward. And I tip my hat to him for helping us achieve those ends. And just at this point, yeah, I just real fast on the community notes thing, I don't know if you've seen. It's very funny. Some people have asked Grock, who like the biggest sources of misinformation are on his. And I think that it's great that his own thing calls him out publicly and says, yeah, Elon Musk is one of the biggest purveyors of misinformation on this platform. Honestly, Elon Musk has put out some of the biggest pieces of misinformation on X.

And now we have community notes to call him out for it, which is awesome, okay? Yeah. It's awesome. That could go away at his whim. That's what worries me, yeah. Don't, don't, no, I don't think, I don't, I don't, I, I don't. I will stand corrected if that happens. He's not taking community notes out, no.

I think more of, like, politics aside, looking at his, you know, most recent efforts. Like, Twitter, for me, community notes, sure. But that's become a platform that has been so much more difficult for me to use. It was like a real, it was like a real tool to me. And it's just. It's more difficult? How?

It's so full of the algorithm, I think. There used to be, you used to open a tweet and you'd see meaningful discussion under it, comments pertaining to what's going on. Now it's just like, it's slop. It's either spam or, uh, blue badges get the priority now. Only fans, girls. Oh boy, pussy and bio. Yeah, pussy and bio. Yeah.

And it used to be this place where I was like, wow, this is a useful tool to me. And it's, I've seen it been like just decline in its usefulness to me. And it's been a real shame because I really enjoyed the. Yeah, like, I really, and you know, another one is like, I've never engaged with one myself. So again, it could be like misinformation I'm seeing online, but like people talking about the cyber trucks and stuff. And there's that funny video of the guy who's got, he's got a Ford F150 and a cyber truck. And he's just, it's so great. Just ripping the panels off.

Have you ever seen this? Yeah. Oh, man. And you're like, are we, that seems like a shitty product to me. Yeah, but if you think it's a shitty part, let it be a shitty product. You don't have to buy a cyber truck. I think they're horrible. No, but that just speaks to my confidence in the way he can effectuate results and stuff. How does he effectuate results on it? No, no, that speaks to my own confidence in his ability to do it.

Oh, sure. Well, how about this? How about, again, I'm going to take you back to the founder-operator mindset. He's busting through walls, doing crazy things, innovating. like some a lot of bad stuff is going to fall out of the bottom of the funnel for you it might be the cyber some people love the cyber truck i don't fully get it okay but but but i love i listen like the the rocket that lands itself is pretty cool that falls out of the bottom right like nobody thought nobody thought that you could have a fully electrified car

anywhere near the time that he brought that to our civilization. Like, we thought we were so far away. He didn't want to hear it. He just did it. He just did it. The stuff he's doing at SpaceX, we thought, was impossible. They're just doing it because he allows his people to take extreme risk and do things that we think are impossible.

Okay. So he's trying to literally cut all waste out of government. No one's ever been even remotely close to being able to do that. He's the only person crazy enough to even try. Okay. Now, is it going to be dirty? Is it going to be sloppy? Is it going to be terrible?

Will it end up being a complete and utter catastrophe? Maybe. Maybe it will be, okay? But maybe he just might do something amazing. All right? So we don't know yet whether Doge is going to be a complete catastrophe or something mind-blowingly amazing or something in between. But if not for that nutbag up there on the wall,

We wouldn't even know. We wouldn't even have a chance because he's the only one crazy enough to even try. Okay. So listen, I'm actually glad that we have people that crazy in the world that are doing things that he's doing. Because some terrible stuff's going to come out of it. Some great stuff's going to come out of it. Now, remove the politics, remove the political side of it.

I'm just saying remove the political Elon. Let's just talk about the Elon that's doing crazy stuff with companies, right? doing innovation right trying to do like I don't want to go to Mars I don't think we need a dual civilization anytime soon but maybe he's right maybe I'm wrong maybe maybe we'll be very thankful when we look

throughout history 200 years from now and we realize you know what that one time that Earth became inhabitable for 30 years thank goodness we were able to repopulate on Mars and then come back I don't know maybe he's right but like I'm kind of glad that we have them

even though I don't even though I don't agree with a lot of the stuff that he does, right? And I didn't, we didn't want to put you as a, make you play the Elon Defender. No, he's fine. He's the Elon Defender. He said it. He likes him. He likes him. He likes all his tweets and shit. I like and hate him. I can like and hate him at the same time. I know. I wanted to reiterate it. The biggest thing that I've been grappling with is I hate the way partisanship has destroyed discourse. Yeah. Online. I try to give due credit where I think it's due. and I'm not going to give fucking Elon. Listen, Elon, if you're watching this,

I think you fucking suck. I think you're the cringiest motherfucker to ever have existed. And I think it's something you should be embarrassed about. And I think you should just shut the fuck up for five minutes. Jesus, God. I really don't like the man.

But at the same time, when I drove a Tesla for the first time, fucking six years ago, I remember distinctly being pissed off. I was like, why didn't I drive this sooner? This is how driving should be. Why didn't I invest in Tesla? Why, you know, blah, blah, blah. If I were a millionaire off of Tesla, I'd probably be glorping back his dick, you know, excuse me. But like many people are, I think of that, you know, meet Kevin. Yeah, he's a praise a friend. Yeah, he, I know, well, he's actually, and he's turned, he's become a critic of Elon Musk. Tipped my head. I just, yeah, I'm just, I'm sick of him being in the news. every day. I'm sick of using his app and seeing his shit. I'm just, I just have Elon fatigue.

And I think a lot of people do. And it's just, it's just frustrating. It's a, so this happened to me during like the first Trump administration, whether you love him or hate him, his, in terms of politics. He was in front, he was there every day. You couldn't avoid Donald Trump. You couldn't avoid the Trump. Oh, yeah. For four years. And I think I, I, I, I've learned, uh, again, again, like there are things I like, things I don't like. But I've learned how to like pull myself out of that news cycle. You don't need to see Elon every day if you don't want. I mean, you can't completely avoid them. But there is a way to circumvent a lot of that. Now, you will appreciate Elon, I think, if you ever get to a point in your life where you have someone who's older, maybe

it's a parent, a grandparent. And the thing, the stuff that he's doing with robots right now could put them in a much better place, right? And at the end of the day, you'd be like, ah, if I had to listen to Elon for years, but look at what he built. Look at what he built. That's allowing my granddad to actually have some grace in his older years. I mean, even full self drive. I never really got it. I was always like, who fucking cares? Oh, that's huge. In the future? I was out of Thanksgiving and someone's much older relatives, they were all talking about how like they hate driving now. And they were like, my life would be so, I would be able to go see my grandkids as much I wanted. No, but that's not what this is about.

Let's, let's talk about what's actually important. Because people get caught up in the noise of bullshit. Do you know how most people die on a day-to-day basis? Oh, yeah, car crashes. No. No, that's the, that's the conversation. Life and death. Yeah.

FSD, when we do eventually fully realize it, and it could be way off. It could be 20 years from now, 30 years from now, when we have nothing but robotaxies anywhere in the world. When you look at what that, listen, I lost my best friend in an auto accident when I was a kid. Okay. And I, to this day, his mother is not the same 30 years later. All right. FSD would have solved that. If no one was ever driving cars, okay, you're going to see death rates eventually go down to essentially zero.

The thing that drives me, we're big train guys here. There's, there's, I feel like there's a world in which, uh, we didn't need full self drive to eliminate car deaths. I think it's crazy that we all trains. Have you ever been to a country with like a big public, have you been to Japan? Dude, what are you talking about? Are you out of your mind? Why? I love trains too, but, but no, no, no. I've been to, I've been to Japan. I didn't have a car. I was there for two weeks. I got to, I went all around. Dude, have you, have you ever left a big city? You can't have just trains. Oh, you. What are you talking about? America's too big. No, not America, the world.

Like, like, you're just talking. Sure, but we have no real public transport infrastructure in this country. If you don't have to have like a massive interstate highway system like we do now, you are eliminating millions of deaths right. You're not even touching, you are eliminating a lot of deaths. You're not even touching the level of death from auto accidents if you eliminate highways. You cannot solve this problem with trains. You can't even come anywhere close to solving this problem with trains. And I love trains, okay?

Like, I'm all for it. I'm all for high speed trains. Like, awesome. No, like, you need to have, you need to have so much more point-to-point transportation than what trains can achieve or do. Well, I mean, when you're saying, the last mile can a deal? It's just not realistic. What you're saying is just not realistic for...

It works in... It works in... It works in... It works where? It works in big cities. But you were also just saying Full Self Drive isn't that realistic? What are you talking about?

It works in big cities. No, no, that's not true. That's not true. No, do you know what happened? Do you know the deliveries that get done every single day? The commercial is through vehicle? Yeah, yeah.

Are you... No, trains do not solve that in big cities. They don't. They don't even come close. I was only talking about just me going to a bar. But, but, but, But what you're talking about doesn't solve the problem, right? Yes, we cannot eliminate death.

We cannot eliminate accidents, whatever. But you were just talking about how full self-drive you felt was pretty impractical and not likely. But no, no, full self-driving is coming. Like, it's just a time thing. It's a time thing, right? People get their timelines way off. There will be a time when very few people are driving vehicles. The death rate, we'll look back on a time when we'll look back on a time when we'll,

we were driving $5,000 machines at age 18. Yeah, which is crazy. At 60 miles an hour and think that was like prehistoric. We will look at that and we will look at the data of how many humans were dying a year. Forget about the deaths. Forget about the deaths. You look at how many humans are dying. Then you look at how many humans are critically injured.

Like it's actually insane. When I was 16. I ripped my 1990 Camry to, 110 miles an hour in the slow lane on the 605 freeway at 4 o'clock in the afternoon. Guys, auto accidents are like one of the biggest problems in the world to solve, okay? And FSD

will eventually in time solve it and it is going to be one of the biggest breakthroughs that we've had in recent history for just humanity. We're talking about mothers not losing children. That's the shit I care about. I don't give a damn

how you get to the bar. Okay? Like, I care about life. I care about kids' lives, okay? And if that guy right up there is going to help solve that, then I want him on this earth. It sounds- I don't care that you don't like the shit that he says. Sure. I don't care that you don't like his voice.

I get you. I can care less about you or how much you like his voice. Yeah. I'm with you. I think that it falls under like the messenger versus the message. And-grow up, though. It gives a shit. You guys are so soft.

You're soft. Yeah. You're soft. I'm going to tell you, you're soft, guilty, okay? Think about a bigger picture. Yeah. I lost my two best friends, one to leukemia, one to a car accident. I want to solve both those problems, okay?

Yeah. I don't give a damn about the way either one of you feel, ever. Yeah. Ever. And with the, just real fast on the full self-driving, it kind of reminds me of what you said earlier with humanoids in that this is a world that we've made, for humans, hence it makes sense to have the humanoids. Yeah.

And my brain is going, okay, is it the same thing with full self-driving versus like trains in that we've already got this world. We've already got this infrastructure set up in such a way that we're not going to get rid of cars, practically. And like you said, it's the last mile thing of like the, me going to the restaurant, me going to the thing. Yeah, there's trains for part of that. But then practically speaking, for the old people, the young who can't drive, you

need, we're never going to be getting rid of cars. Even for people that, yeah, we need to have the ability to move both people and commerce. Yeah. And everything. Guys, the amount of vehicle miles, you could look it up. It's like it. It's where trains would never be a solution. Oh, I was, just to clarify, I was not talking that we could eliminate cars. I don't think we're ever going to eliminate cars. I was talking about a reduction in deaths, uh, while we're on our way to something like full self-drive. And not only a reduction in deaths, making people's lives better. Yeah. Do you see how long

it's taking to get a train approved in California? Yeah, that's a huge issue. I mean, that's why we're not going to have trains, okay? We took Amtrak just a couple weeks ago. It was, I was fucking pissed. They had the heat on, and I was very uncomfortable. It was, yeah.

It was, yeah, Amtrak is, they're trying their best. No, listen, I didn't mean to yell at you guys. No, it's okay. I'm making a point because I feel like we get caught up in all this noise, all this crap, and we forget what's really important. What's really important is, you know, the people at the bottom. That's who we need to look out for, right? Can we agree on that? Of course. Oh, yeah. Anybody else. And the way that we're going to get there is through innovation technology. End of story. It's the only way we're going to be able to help that. And along the way, there's going to be a

lot of imperfection that a lot of people have issue with. And I agree. It's that ethos of move, fast, break things that a lot of us take umbrage with because it isn't pretty. And I think it speaks to the grander thing that I was touching on earlier about discourse and how, yeah, people demand and expect perfection in getting to these things. And it's impractical because we're not going to have that. Testing drugs. There's going to be a lot of side effects. There's going to be, the system is flawed. The system is imperfect. There are, you know, there's, there's, there's just a lot, man.

There's a lot. There's, we have. We need, we need, we need crazy people taking big risk, big ideas and breaking through walls and doing spectacular things so that we can discover the next generation of drugs and medical equipment and all. the stuff so that more babies survive childbirth and so that you know more people are lifted out of poverty we're going to solve cancer all this stuff is on the horizon guys like it's all there um and you know yeah like the wealth disparity listen my primary life goal is to bridge uh the wealth gap by bring every human on earth into the investor class right like that i talk about that nonstop. You can't solve the income gap. Income gap is not solvable. It won't be

solvable. It's a pipe dream. You can make little adjustments here and there. But at the end of the day, the income gap is very difficult problem to solve. The wealth gap is totally within our realm to solve. If we could actually fix it in a very large way over a very short period of time by simply bringing every human into the investor class, right? Because that's ultimately, there's no restrictions there, right? Like, you can't take an individual with a certain skill set and a certain education set and a certain amount of brain power, right? And they're likely, because of just the way society works, they're likely going to be capped on income at some point. Yeah. Does that mean bringing people into like just investing in companies or investing in like any kind of the market.

Just having if we just didn't have social security for the past 70 years and instead had taken even a small piece of that money and allowed every person in this country to own a piece of capital markets. Do you know where we would be? Do you know where we would be today? Like we would not have the wealth gap that we had today. That's one thing. The wealth gap wouldn't be. anywhere near what it is. Aren't some countries like doing pilot programs with this where like a kid will be born and they'll invest like, I don't know, 10K or something and then they're allowed to access it. You're starting it. I know Bill Ackman, love him or hate him, has float. He floated that idea years ago that at birth. I love him and hate him. We say, I mean, I remember

watching him live. I wish that we had this show then because there was so much stuff going on in 2020 when he cried on TV after just having made a billion dollars on the short. And then little did We know he was actually already getting long, but he suggested doing something similar of when you're born, you're given, I don't know, $5,000 in the S&P that you cannot touch until you are 18. And it would effectively give every child born in America all that much more of a head start when they turn 18. Be insane. Folks, I'm a cautious optimist. And I hope that those in power, it was Uncle Bill. Ben, who said in Spider-Man, with great power comes great responsibility.

And I'd certainly hope that the people more powerful and wealthy than ourselves exercise such responsibility. And because they are the ones blazing the trail, they are the ones guiding society and culture toward whatever unknown. I hope that they do it with nobility. I hope they do it with an equitable mindset where, like you said, the less fortunate where everybody rises up together. That's my view. That is I hope that I hope that you're correct. I am looking forward to investing in some of these companies. You know,

LIDAR shit is probably one of the only alternate, not alternative, but ancillary things that I've looked at. Auster. I don't know if you know that company. I don't know what I'm getting at. Just this is my own little editor. So I shouldn't use my money to buy the Mabs to get Luca back. Is that what you're saying? Listen, brother, you do whatever you want with your money. I'm going to be, I'm going, I'm going long on, I don't know, I'm going long on optimism. I'm going long on women. I'm, I'm, fuck, what am I saying?

I just like to say, to anyone with nanodrones, I'm building even smaller nanodrones. I will find you, I'm untouchable. That is something, it is something to worry about. That is what to worry about. I'm not going to be able to sleep tonight because of the nanodrones. Oh, when I smoke pot later, I'm going to be thinking about the nanodrones. You got to watch the black mirror episode. I saw it. It's a great show. It's terrifying. No, the one with the nanodrons. Yeah. And the one with the little dog with the gun on top or whatever I think. I can't remember. Is there anything? What wisdom, where, first of all, plug whatever you want to plug. Impart whatever wisdom you'd like. I have these conversations every week on Dumboney Live on YouTube. I talk about all my investments like Chris Camillo on X. And, you know, I don't know, just invest. I honestly like, no, like seriously. Seriously.

though. This is the greatest time in my lifetime to get really aggressive as an because there will be a really tough transitionary time if what I foresee happening happens over the next 15, 20 years when the value of human work for a small period of time it gets somewhat devalued. Right. And we have this transition away from all the jobs that we have today to new industries and new jobs and a new way of life, the transitionary time is going to be tough for some people. And you could, you could de-risk that with investments, right? So if you're not totally reliant on your own labor or capital and you have another meeting, because if you think about this, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if,

If human labor, if the value of human labor goes down in any meaningful way over the next couple of decades, depending on what sector you work in, right? It might hit you. It might not hit you. In an equal way, the value of the enterprise that's benefiting from those efficiencies and that productivity through robotics and AI, by having some ownership in that kind of back. balance it out. Does that make sense? Yeah, your own little form of arbitrage. Yeah. And so this shouldn't just be for rich people. This shouldn't just be for pedigreed, uh, investors. This should be for everyone. So like everybody can get in on this game. It doesn't matter who you are. It's never been easier to open up, uh, an app Robin Hood to sign up for a brokerage account. They don't pay

me. I'm not like a Robin Hood sponsor. But like it, it's never been here, Schwab, whatever, but it's never been easier to like start investing. You. You know, You could start investing like that. And the problem is investing doesn't necessarily mean investing in meme coins and GameStop and all that crap. Making huge bets. Actually investing in the companies that are disruptive that are going to benefit from our pain. Right? Right.

Our temporary pain the next 10 or 15 or 20 years. We're investing in the company that very well might kill you one day in the form of the nanodrones. Well, at least I leave my kids. Hopefully I have them one day. At least I leave them in a good place. You can't beat them, join them. By the way, I wanted to call our show in the very beginning. I wanted to call it dumb money.

And I googled it and I found your show. And I was like, ah, shit, we can't call it. Yeah, we own the trademark. We actually licensed it to Sony for the dumb money movie. Oh, wow. Oh, wow. Yeah. Good for you.

Yeah, that's why we're in it. They gave us like a two second little click in there. Yeah. Oh, shit. I'll have to watch it. Yeah. We share the screen with McConaughey for like two seconds during, you know, that movie has all these jumpy clips where they have fun stuff and they put us on there as like a thank

you. We gave them the name. Nice. Incredible. Well, folks, let us know what you think. I always love to say I feel like there's going to be a lot of comments on this video. Good and bad. As we should. We need it's nice to have new perspectives. Yeah, this is our future. God damn it. It's boring when it's just one perspective. When it's us sucking each other off. Ben and Emile Show.com for the bonus episode and thank you so much for tuning in. You guys got your two-hour episode, so quit asking for it.

Thank you for coming on. Thank you so much. Thank you. I'm really glad we got to finally do this. Very fun conversation. Thank you. And so long, folks. We'll see you next week.

Coming up on this week's episode of Ben and Amel show.com. I had my own regrets. Ben has regrets about everything it does us. I mean, sure. Who among us? No, but you know, you go in and you're, You buy a chocolate bar, and you're like, fuck, I should have a different chocolate bar. I should have...

I should make it so that you can have, you can have, I think, hey, you can have a billion dollars. Just one. Just one billion. You get to that point. You get a special trophy. You get a ring. I don't know what the fuck. That's like a famous.

That's like a viral tweet. What? You get a trophy? Yeah. Oh, it's my idea. Present or past, yeah. Would you rather live in the present or would you rather live in like the 90s? I think I'd probably do mid-90s.

Oh, if I could pick any time? Economically, politically, whatever. Yeah, culturally. I don't know. I'd probably pick to be born in like 1955. What about, okay, so Emil wants to live in segregation times? That's strange. No, I want to...

It's interesting, Emil. Because what would that make me? A boomer.