The Ben and Emil Show - The Meatball Special Episode 4: How to sell a TV show

Episode Date: May 28, 2024

Have you ever wondered what it takes to be successful in movies and TV? Lucky for you we've got Phil Matarese, who goes into every excruciating detail on how he has created and sold TV shows: the triumphs, the heartbreak, and everything in between. Sign up for the bonus episode at: https://www.benandemilshow.com See our latest episode here: https://youtu.be/5zMQ8UWGIu8 Watch Ben's Taco Bell Taste Test here: https://youtu.be/5wsoc5pieuA This episode (and every episode) was masterfully edited by Dillon Moore. Check him out at https://www.dillonmoore.co and @ dillonmoore on IG Follow us on instagram. @ bencahn and @ emilderosa and @ dillonmoore and @ philorphilip Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Oh, yeah. Meatball number four. Here we go. We're starting it off. Starting it off light for the audio listener. Well, I wish you could see it. I wish you could see it. Thank you, brother. How many people watch versus how many listen do you think? Oh, we have about two million listeners. Two million and about 46? 46 million, 46 million viewers. Forty-six million viewers. God damn. Today's episode is going to be all about the entertainment industry. Well, a lot of people have said we maybe went Hollywood. How to make it in America.

And we're trying to spell the rumors. That we went Hollywood? Yeah. Who's saying that? Why? The haters just mean... Dylan said it. Honestly, thank you for that fucking life raft right there, dude.

Dylan's insane. We went Hollywood. Oh, man. So, uh, we've, uh, we've, uh... So the impetus for this conversation is that Phil here is a very accomplished television writer and director, producer. The visionary mind behind young Sheldon, he also did... Teen Sheldon. You did Teen Sheldon.

And I think you're developing Elder Sheldon? Elder Sheldon, yeah. Elder Sheldon. So you originally wanted to call it Sheldor. I wanted to call it Sheldor or, you know, just like, sexagenarian. Emphasis on the sex. Yeah, because he's going to start fucking finally.

Yeah. We've seen Big Bang Theory. He doesn't get any. We've seen Young Sheldon. We've seen Medium Sheldon. I worked on Medium Sheldon, too, where he is a medium. What else did you do? He's a medium, but he's also a teenager.

The Freddie and Frankie, the one with, um. Grace and Frankie. Grace and Frankie. Show me some grace. Sorry, show me some grace. I did Grace and Frankie. I actually saw an episode of that show where you can see her sitting on her script in the episode. Are you serious, really?

And you didn't write that in? I didn't write that in. But I thought it was cute. That is cute. I just like to see old people fuck if you want to see a thread coming through some of my things. But I've put that all behind me for women's furniture sales. now. That's right. No, we're also, we're obviously joking, Phil, but Phil does have a very fun, illustrious TV writing. Yeah, and people have asked about it, and I, I, I, Miel obviously

knows the, the, all the details, but I don't know all the details, too, so I am curious, and I, I think it would be pretty fun for people to hear firsthand, straight from the Phil's mouth. Straight from the Phil's mouth. Exactly what it's like, because, um, yeah, a lot of people, I feel like a lot of people do still want to break into the film and television industries, and it has changed quite a lot since you've gotten into it, right, Phil? Yes, absolutely. Okay, so let's start from the beginning, where you were living in New York City, you were working at an advertising agency called Rooster.

Okay, let's, yeah, he's like insane with the detail. Well, yeah, we want to get every geeky. They're defunct. Yes. Is it the guy? Yeah. Yeah, but I mean, you're not. Right.

It's like we're being out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was very different back then. And it's very different now.

It's all very strange now. And it'd be interesting to hear about Will to your other friend if you're okay. We're talking about that. But like, because I am curious in the live action space, what's going on TV wise. Okay. I started doodling these little animated rats and roaches and stuff while you were working at an while I was working at this ad agency and then posted it on YouTube it never really went viral it never really kind of did anything like that but we submitted it to a festival and you were doing

this in your free time in my free time yeah you know sneaking away time nights and weekends to make this little I went fully psycho mode yeah I was like really nuts about it. We would screen it at UCB for Channel 101. And so that actually was really good because it gave us like a monthly deadline to put it out. Who's we? Me and Mike who worked on it with me. And you know Mike from where? Rooster from the ad agency. Okay. And what were you both doing at Rooster? I was a copywriter. Copywriter and I ended up being sort of a creative director and Mike was an editor. But you gotta keep in mind,

this is like 12 people that were in this entire operation. So everyone sort of did everything. It was a really great place because it was, and advertising is a really good place to work as a young, creative person.

You can make a lot of money. And it teaches you all of this shit that you're gonna need eventually of like, you're making little movies and you're pitching every week we were pitching. We were going into rooms and pitching ideas for stuff.

And then you're on, set and you're seeing how to direct stuff. And then I was lucky enough to direct some commercials and even just like writing the commercials. Thank you, buddy. Appreciate that. Um, yeah, you, how old were you at this time? Uh, 24, 25. Wow. So you're 24, 25 in New York City. 23 to, uh, I started working there in 20, when did we graduate? 2011? Yeah. And then about six months after graduation, I think I was at rooster. Because I had a brief career in horse racing journalist. Yeah, that was fun. Wasn't that nuts?

Yeah. Wait, what? Scary time in my life. I worked for a website that was basically like a lifestyle. It was owned by the Pennsylvania Board of Tourism, and it was like five burgers you can get at the Erie Pennsylvania fucking race track. That's the mail. He's really, I'm really making a meal out of my. a mailbox. I'm sorry, guys, but man needs to defend his house, especially when he's got

such precious cargo inside. We were, sorry, where was I with it? So you were briefly working at horse and hound. That doesn't matter. And then you came to New York. Then came to New York. And also, even for that job, I was like, it was like a really cool young ad agency. And I like followed them on Tumblr. Then I like followed their Vimeo. And they reached out to me, uh, because I submitted to another website they had, all this other sort of stuff. So I like really, they were like, you're funny. Yeah. Yes. Yes. And I sort of like backdoored my way into there. Um, so I started doing these animated shorts, just going full early 20s psycho mode. You know from stand up too, where it's like you get up every night. I could never do it

now. Exactly. Like if I didn't do it, then I would have never done it. Right. I really, that was, and I think, especially for us, too. College was like very weird for us. It was very amorphous. Neither of us really knew what we wanted to do. So I think becoming adults outside of that was like, yeah, let me like fucking drink the milkshake of life and like just go ham on making shit as much as possible.

But the real thing that changed the whole trajectory of animals was submitting to this festival that was called New York Television Festival. I don't even think it's around anymore. but you made a you made a you made a you made you turned that web series into a full length episode oh yes true so we did do yes those were like three to four minutes and then we were like you know if we string like two or three of these together it'll be a quarter hour sure pilot more or less so we it's you guys doing the voices too we we mike did the voices i did literally everything else and what program did you i used final cut pro seven which was a defunct editing app at that time

so I just like I used Adobe Illustrator to draw everything and then I would do it's a video editing app so it would be like fill one fill one blink fill one you know and then you just edit it back and forth and before you know it something's blinking um yeah take it in really suck it down as you uh as you relive your I feel like I'm in a spa I feel like I'm back in Tokyo this is I do feel like I'm back I remember we were in Tokyo and you we had two beers and you smoked a SIG and you said, everyone should feel this.

I've never heard you be so... Everyone should feel this. It was one of the most poignant things I've ever heard someone say. It was so beautiful. Once that second or third beer hits and you pull out the cigarette. You pull out the cigarette.

It's really nuts. It's heaven. So we submitted it to this festival. And before this, I didn't know what an agent, I didn't know what a manager was or anything like that. so that at often at these festivals sometimes it's a crapshoot but a lot of times there's

industry people there and that was where we got introduced to people and um yeah was able that's question number one is like this representation thing because we can all write a script and all of that sort of stuff but unfortunately it's still like a huge barrier of entry is getting it in front of executives, getting it in front of production studios, getting it in front of network people, let alone, you kind of need these fucking succubes that take 20% of your shit.

But that's just the way this whole thing got built. So you sort of need those people to a certain degree. But also, I want to know about Will and stuff too, because there are other ways that you can do this. Will also made his own stuff. Well, also, just to, just to, like, wrap up how it all happened, too. Because I don't think what you did is, like, I don't know how often that's going to happen anymore. You won Best Comedy Pilot at New York TV Festival.

Yes. A lot of people were like, holy shit, we want this show. Yes. You got called out by Mitch Hurwitz when he was, like, the creator of Arrested Development. Hold on. We had a screening, and we were at the screening, and so we missed the keynote speech, and Mitch Hurwitz came out and said, are the animals guys here? Right.

And everyone was like, no. And he's like, God, that thing was good. And I was, yeah, got to meet him afterwards. So then you guys are, you know, darlings of the fest. People want to make animals. You're getting offers from people to come to a pilot. Yes.

But which is a shitty deal because it's like, great, we'll make a pilot, the majority of pilots get passed on. Ours would have, I think. And... Ouch, okay. No, because everyone's... No, it does. And so you end up going, you know, you get all this excitement and you do this whole thing where

you try to like stay detached from it because you're like, well, the reality is that this probably won't go anywhere. Yeah. And then at the end you go, well, geez, what did we do? And what do I have to show for it? Right. And instead, you got a call from the Deplace brothers. Yes.

And they said, you can, you know, you have all these other offers. Yes. Or you could come to us. We'll make 10 episodes of a TV show and we'll try to sell it to someone. And regardless, we're going to end up making a TV show, no matter what happens. Yeah. So we went with that. We went with that, yes, which is Mark and Jay are both as talented creatives as they are.

They've also really dedicated to being good entertainment businessmen, which I always thought was cool because they're like really rocked out on their sleeve too of like you should be knowledgeable about this shit. You should figure out the best deal for you. and you know as someone that was making this thing on my own that sounded really great of like yeah let's just fucking make it on our own and bet on ourselves um and so yeah we and then you guys took it to sundance yeah well we spent nine months moved to l a never been here before moved to l a mark put us up in a little apartment and for nine months we animated it i animated the first two episodes of animals that's on TV by myself. We had our friend Nathan, we had our friend Andrew,

we had a friend Isaac, and Mike, obviously. Wait, is this the Isaac that I know? No, this is a different one. And yeah, we hold up in this little apartment, but like all these fun comedian people, Adam Scott, Molly Shannon, they all came to our weird little apartment to record. I'm guessing that that was on the Duplas Brothers part. Yes, that's what they called up.

did was that aspect and what mark and you got to think too this is like right before togetherness was coming out right when they were still cooking with movies and stuff and venturing into tv so those guys too that that other aspect point c that we'll get back to is like partnering up with additive producers we could talk about your situation too with that one guy of like non additive producers um but yeah that aspect yeah so we we made two episodes because immediately it was like oh no i can't do this this will take six years to finish 10 episodes but we wrote all 10 episodes so you know what emil was alluded to was that it's really hard to make two episodes entirely of a tv show i dedicated nine months to i made no money over those nine months i all the advertising money i had went away

to exist. But with that package, we had 10 episodes written. We had two episodes completed. Then we submitted to Sundance. We were the first TV show to ever go to Sundance. And that pop, that fucking momentum behind it was like really, felt really good. And the reason that you guys did that instead of going the more traditional route of selling just a pilot is because.

when you do that, it gives the production company, whichever one that buys the pilot, they then own it. And then they're like, well, okay, we bought it. And now we're just going to sit on it because we don't really, maybe they don't share the same vision as you. So they're not, they're less likely to actually fund the thing. So it was a lot better for you guys to go this route because you've got a lot more of the process that would otherwise happen already completed. And you can then, now you can go to a network and be like, look, We've already gotten nine episodes filmed, or nine episodes written, two episodes filmed. It makes it a lot more likely for them to actually...

Yes. Yeah. It's, it's, that's very interesting because a lot of times they want to get their grubby little fingers all over it. Right. So it's, we, it's, we did a very risky, very weird thing of making all of this stuff. And then HBO picked it up and then. About two seasons right off the bad. Right off the goddamn bat.

I remember calling my manager and he was like, they don't do that. And I was like, well, you might want to call somebody else. Wait, wait. So you just, how did that happen? We screamed at Sundance and then basically you kind of open the door. Everyone's there. Every network is there. And 2015, you got to keep in mind of like, you know, Amazon was.

a brand new streaming service. Trump was still just the funny guy. Trump was a funny guy. I loved the guy back then. There was compilations of him saying China. We thought it was all a joke. Yeah, it was nuts. And so, yeah, it was like, went around,

became this little bidding war thing. And HBO is like the shit. And so, yeah, we went with them. And then, yeah, partnered with an animation studio and then started making the show. and then did two seasons, then a third season, and then it wrapped. So now a days, there's... We did three seasons total, though. We did three seasons, yeah, yeah. On which you were obviously executive, you were credited as executive producer, co-creator, writer. Yes. Writer. Righter.

Yeah. Me and Mike wrote every episode. There was no other writer. Yeah. There's no writer's room. Yeah. It was so much fun. And they did. didn't even fall ever looking at the wind what the fuck was that uh they dude it was like a art project we had would have one meeting especially now realizing how rare this is we would have one meeting a year where we would be like here's the 10 episodes for the season and i would pitch it the whole thing one time i had a button down shirt on maybe for season two and the middle button was open so my whole like hairy chest was at and mike was like sort of like doing this to me like look down at your shirt and i was going like nodding back like yeah i think i am doing good

thank you michael and yeah then i looked down i was like ah okay good to know but it was a very rare you know and also a completely different network where it was it mattered when you air We were 11.30 on Friday nights. It was, that's a very low stakes time slot for them, a very fun experimental time slot. And we were, I forget the exact math of it, but somehow with advertising or something like that, our show basically costs nothing. Like, and comparatively to a lot of live action shows and especially the higher end live action shows, we were just like a fun little thing that they were pushing that like sort of checks. off, you know, fun, adult animated comedy that they're very rarely dipping their toes into. But I sucked on those toes. I sucked on those toes for a while. I sucked on

the toes of HBO for a bit. Steve Dildarian. I mean, Steve Dilderian, one of the funniest people on earth. The late night HBO animated comedy kings. Absolutely. And now there's a lot more. You guys were, dare I say, pioneering a bit the adult animated kind of thing because now there's so it's like a dime a dozen. Yeah, I think, at least in the sense that networks are willing to take a risk. Yeah, and there's just a lot more places and there's a lot more executives at those places,

but there's not anymore. You know, we sold the show to this guy, Michael Lombardo at HBO, that was there forever. And then you hear about these guys like Mike Lazzo at Adult Swim who defined the voice of the network and all that sort of stuff. And there's not really many of these career producers anymore. So why do you think that is?

Because this thing is bought by that thing and that thing now owns this thing. So it's like constantly that thing, dude, for the one cartoon I had, we took it out for the first time in 2019. And the Amazon executives are at Netflix now. And one of the Apple executives was at HBO. and the HBO executive is at Amazon now. It's like, they just shuffle around. And there's, it's not a lot of people who are willing to take big risks.

I don't want to be a Debbie Downer on now because also there's so many more places you can pitch it to. Sure. But it has changed in the sense that like, you know, it feels like a much more frustrating, I think it was always a frustrating industry for people because it's like a thing,

Tons of people want to do. Yeah. But with all these different places you can pitch and everything, and there used to be a structure there that basically evaporated. Yeah. There was a pilot season, and there was like all of these benchmarks throughout the year where, you know, you knew whether or not your pilot got bought, you knew whether or not they were going to make a pilot.

And then there was the up fronts where they would have... Well, wait, let's explain what these are to people. What's pilot season, Emil? I think people know what pilots are and stuff It's like when people are going out With their pilots to try to sell it So it was like there was a very distinct season Where people were buying

Because they had to hit all these deadlines and stuff Because they want to put stuff on air You had to have your slate of shows Ready To sell to advertisers To sell to advertisers at the upfronts Which usually happened in May I think And it was like it followed a very

distinct season It was like September to May basically sitcoms would happen. And yeah, you would have like, you would have like Halloween and Thanksgiving and Christmas episodes. Right, right, right, right, right. And then, but now that is like,

God, our Christmas episode aired in like July. I was so upset. Are you kidding? I love Christmas episodes. And I was like, maybe we can back it up a bit. And they're like, yeah, it's gonna be like July 12th. I was like, for sure. The farthest away can be.

That's kind of funny. That's all good. It's all good. It's all streamed now. But the and that when that structure was in place

there was also people were getting paid like crazy I mean you could work on a TV show for a full year and kind of you know

if you were out of work for the next year or two it wouldn't be a dire straits right yeah so when you got staffed on something

you were working for like 30 or more weeks and now yeah people will and look at the episode amounts for like

Seinfeld and friends and stuff. Sometimes you're talking about like a 26 episode season and then you're staying on for filming and stuff. And then not to mention residuals that you get when they go on to air over and over again. But now people will get hired to write for a Netflix show that's anywhere from like six to ten episodes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

They get to write for 10 weeks and then they're... I mean, six is so tiny. It's crazy. You know, it's just like... But it's also, we have a lot of friends who are, finally selling pilots and it's, I don't know, at first this kind of joyous thing, oh my God, we've been waiting for this to happen. But then there's all this frustration around what happens next where they just kind of put you through the ringer. It can be, yeah.

Yeah, so why don't you tell us about your friend who sold a TV show and what his experience was like in contrast to Phil's? Well, I don't, uh, I feel bad because when I was in New York, I found out it didn't get picked up. Fuck. Um, but I think the cool silver lining about his situation is he's another. And, and I think my biggest thing that I always say is if you can make stuff on your own, even shooting with your friends, this was a live action thing. So it's not even like animated stuff. And he just did this because he liked doing this and like had no, you know, if I started. animating animals with the aspirations of like this is going to be a TV show obviously that was a

small small thing but it was like I don't know I'm just like on Adderall I'm 20 something this is New York City I like screening stuff I'm gonna make stuff that is the that is the most fun you're gonna have making anything and I think that form of expression will hopefully and you know like stringing together two or three of these, we backdored it into a quarter hour pilot. So anyway, your friend's show sort of stemmed from a similar-ish thing. Well, did he shoot stuff?

Yeah, so his was actually a kind of very similar thing where he had, he was shooting these little things just because he thought they were fun, working a regular day job. And that's the, there's also these, you know, the assistants also weirdly run Hollywood in a weird way and um some assistant was putting together a newsletter that he was sending out to uh because they all want to move ahead they you know

they all want to be hired or promoted to execs and um and get to make decisions and stuff so they want to do things that are going to catch higher up's attention and stuff so he was for the comedy world he was putting out a newsletter every week and sending it to agents, directors, writers, producers, yeah. I mean, I guess he would basically say, do you want to subscribe? And people would, because I guess he had good taste. And he had no idea.

Someone just put his short on the newsletter. And so it went out to a bunch of people. And he got a call and he thought it was a, he thought it was like a prank because he was like, I saw your thing. And like, we want to do something with you. And he's like, what are you talking about? And he was like, do you know the news?

How did they call it from? He's got his, I guess, yeah, I get, yeah. And so. And how long ago was that? That was probably 2020, end of 2021, 2021, 22. Just so we get a sense of how long these things can take, how protracted they become. Yeah. Yeah.

So toward the end. You know, he did end up pitching it and they ended up buying it. And, you know, and so, yeah, now it's the middle of 2024. and he just found out that it's not going. So as part of that process, when you say he pitched it, he put together what they call a pitch deck, which is anywhere from a few to like a dozen pages, let's say, which outlines what the show is going to be,

what you envision it to be, who the characters are, a little synopsis on them, and then maybe some episode, potential episode breakdowns, some summaries of like, here's what the show, just exactly what it sounds like. here's what the show, what we envision it to be, and you try to give as much details so that these executives can envision what you're envisioning

to the end that they would, so that they might want to buy it, right? Yeah. And so they bought it. And then he just sat and waited. No, they bought, you write a script. And then you give it to them, and then they say, we like it, can you rewrite it with these changes? And you go, oh, sure, we can do that.

And you incorporate it. And they go, ah, it's still not right. We were thinking maybe we, and you're like, oh, wow, that's a big change. then you rewrite it again. And that's what he'd went through. Yeah, that's what pretty much like everyone is. Right. And after almost, let's just call it two years, he finally gets word that they're like, eh, we're just, we're not going to pick it up. Right. And he, so he got paid for the pilot that they bought. So do they own the intellectual property now of that show? There's

nothing he can, he can't take it elsewhere. No, once they pass, he can go out to other. Oh, well, that's nice. I can get it back. I have this show that I've taken out. I first, started pitching it in 2019 and we sold it to one place and then they passed on it and then we sold it to another place and then they passed on it and now we're on a third place with it so i've been in development on this one show for about five years now what does that do for your for your bank account no enthusiasm because i mean that is nice that they they they they you get a no it's but it i mean yeah it's like this devil's deal of like sure i'm getting paid on the same 30 pages i'm again and again, but it's so Sisyfisian.

But it's not the same 30 pages, right? You're redoing it. You redo it for this. Yeah, these people want it to be more family. These people, they don't want the kids in it. These people want it another way. And as you go, are you pitching what you think is like maybe you're pitching a version two versions ago?

Yeah, because they don't see everything. But again, like a lot of these people were at other places of me pitching it. it luckily has gotten more and more into my realm of like it's more adult it's more horny it's more like joke focused less plot heavy and stuff which i think will be a really really fun show so so the this sixth or seventh iteration is um yeah it always feels like the best one whenever you're on it. I'm grateful for it, but at the same time,

I'm so fucking done with it. Yeah, I was so your enthusiasm for it has waned, you would say? I'm very excited about this show, you guys. I really wanted to green light. I would love a green light,

but absolutely. I fucking hate it. I don't want to work on it ever again. Where would your ideal home for it be? Where I'm at now, feels pretty good. Can you say what that is? Yeah, it's at Netflix.

So you've got this show that you've pitched elsewhere. And you still got the women's furniture company, if it all... The women's furniture ain't going nowhere. Right. Because girls need that stuff. Well, and that's your passion project. Well, we'll pivot into that next. Yeah, we'll talk about it. Because you've got to talk to the girl.

One bedroom, two bedroom. Is it a studio? If it's a studio, you might as well not even talk to her. Right. How much furniture is you get in a studio? It's not a big contract. It's not going to be a big contract. Unless they're one of those Japanese, like...

Girls? No, those Japanese, like... Then you keep them in the store. Yeah. So what are you up to? I got some fun stuff. Wait, Phil. They eat on the floor, though.

Phil. So then you can't really get the chance. We've been to Japan. So I know this. Yeah. So what is, so where it's at now? They've, they've bought the pilot and now, and now what? Where is it at now?

They, um, yeah, we, we, we, well, I got, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, really good stuff for an animated show you have to come up with art so that's a big aspect too just going back to the pitch getting the deck together and all that sort of stuff we pitch the show and another big thing about shows is like why are you doing this all that sort of shit of like you get you know it's about my parents the show um so that always helps too in rooms of like, this is the reason why I'm doing this. And I think this is really important for this. They like the authenticity.

And there's all these other aspects of it. Like, why is it an interesting world that people want to tune into? And then thinking about is it serialized? Is it not serialized? Now I'm at, this show is at a place where it got turned around two times. Now it's at Netflix. And they're like, we wanted to be a little bit more adult. Great.

did that, wrote them a script, and then we're in the second process now of rewriting the script for them. And it's really good notes. It's really even more in the direction of where I want to go. Even hornier. Honestly, even hornier. I've had some really graphic things in this script. I opened it where the wife is sleeping and she's like, honey, come me, give me a kiss. And he's like, oh, now you're morning breath, it's terrible. I'll eat you out. I'm not going to kiss you, but like, these are his parents he's talking about. Well, it's me. It's me. I'm voicing my dad, and then I finally get to fulfill my destiny of eating, of a New Jersey boy's dream. Voicing his dad, his animated dad. Becoming your dad. Oh. And taking over the family.

And when you're, when you say the script, you just mean the pilot. It's just the pilot episode. But for another place we wrote us they wanted the script and then because we developed it with another place that we're like we should do a second episode and then for the first place we wrote the script for them and then they were like okay our marching orders is we need a format which is like a really big Bible like this was like fucking 20 pages single spaced of like here's the season of here's what the show is here's what the you know themes we're going to explore yeah that each character has like a way bigger thing way more art it's cool because i have like a book of the show now

and it really invests you in it and like you know if someone wants another episode i could write tons of these things now but and that's all for the same show that's now this is all for this one show yeah that's now at netflix um previous you know but other other other situations Right after animals, me and Mike had this show, twins, that, man, we had one page. We made a short, and we had one page of what the show could be. And we partnered with a production studio and pitched it to Fox and they picked it up right there. So it was like, it varies. It's all very strange and different.

and I've done tons of different iterations of it. What happened with twins? Twins. And this was based on the Coors Lake commercial? Yeah, it was about... Twins. Big L. Titties. You know what they say about martinis?

One's not enough. Two's good. Three is too many, but four, that's a party. Oh, I like that. Should we drink four martinis tonight? Did I say martinis are like tits? Because that is what makes the joke. Okay.

Oh, brother. You see it even you miss that part? Yeah. Because it's like two chicks. Yeah. Three's too many. Because it's like three tits.

Like, what is that? Right. And three martinis are like, what am I doing? But four, you turn it around and you're going, okay, now we're, all right.

No, I think I get a groove here. It's so salty. Like you're just SpongeBob and Sandy's house. So what happened with twins? They passed on it. The story of my life and that I opened up

my first women's furniture store and I sold an ottoman and I never looked back. And so with Netflix now, it's at the stage in development where you're pretty damn sure that they're going to order a whole season or are they still just kind of teasing you? No idea. Nobody has any idea anymore.

Gotcha. Because everyone, I love my execs. We love our execs. And they're not paying you as you go, right? Yeah, I get paid motherfucker. Come on, no. Oh, okay, good. Oh, good.

I thought that it was like they buy it. No, you're right. They buy... The pilot, I get paid on a rewrite, and then if we go to animatic, which is what most likely will happen, I'll get paid on that as well. And what's an animatic? An animatic is going to be six to eight minutes of the episode, probably in storyboard-ish form. Just showing what it looks like, pen to paper, like me voicing it, the gal we have cast voicing her part. You got to get Dan. doing a voice.

Bonach? Oh, God, yeah. He's just a natural... It blows my mind that... He's a friend of ours who's got a very distinct voice. Yeah. I'm tumbling, dude.

I'm going tumbling, dude. He's also part of the Five Horsmen or Secret Body Surfing... Our secret beach society. Yeah. God damn. I'm going tumbling. He caught a wave.

He was the tumbler. This is third eye. Yeah. Because I had a knack for seeing the waves as they came. Ben would say. stand farthest out, and we'd look, and he's going, all right. Waves coming.

And then sometimes third eye was wrong. Yeah. What's going on with third eye today? Third eye's all fucked up. Danny, who's a small feller, he was tumbler because he would go and he'd get tumbled. Like he's in a laundry. And we're all taking these like beautiful body surfs and you'd see Danny next to. And at one time we were all in a wave and we just hear him going.

I'm tumbling, dude. I picture, like, you know, in cartoons when they fight and it's like a cloud, just like legs sticking out here and there. I love Danny so much. He's in Atlanta right now working on a film that's shooting out there. What? Yeah. What's he doing?

You know, he's, I think, assisted in, PA, production, maybe producing that sort of stuff. damn can you say with who i don't know i'm pretty sure it's out is it the same people that he's always worked with that's good yeah oh is it the sequel no it's a different thing it's a remake uh it's naked gun remember the naked gun but with uh with leam nisen yeah i think it is yeah yeah the lonely island guys are behind yeah i hope that's in deadline and if it's not we might have no it is because i we i've heard about it okay yeah yeah he's working on that that's shooting right No. Which, I mean, how fun is that? That's going to be hilarious. Did you see the Chippendale? Chippendale. Oh, yeah. Chippendale, right? That's who they are, right? Chippendale.

What are you talking about? They made a Chippendale movie for Disney. When? Oh, the one that came out a few years ago? Yeah. Yeah, no, I didn't see it. I heard it was good. It was pretty good. Wow. What about it? They made it, Ben. Oh, that's it. They made the movie. Oh, I didn't know. I didn't know that's what you meant. One of my favorite, I got to go to a lot of Phil's press things when animals was popping off, and they did a screening in New York, and they were talking about, Mark Deplace was there, and it was after it screened, and it was like a Q&A, and they were asking questions about it. And they were kind of talking about, you know, the improbable nature of selling two seasons to HBO like that and the risk they took. And they said to Mark, like, did you know, did you know when you, you know, kind of signed on to this project that this was all possible? And he was like, honestly, I thought the best case scenario, we would end up at stars. And you went, stars.

Like, life was good back then. I paid that much. That's funny. Yeah, and I remember, oh, I remember at another thing, someone asked him, they were like, did you think this would work? And he goes, no. Yeah. I was like, what, dude? That's so fucking scary, but I'm glad it did. What do you think you'd be doing if, uh, if, if animals never got picked up? Uh, flying around the clouds, because I'd be in heaven and I'd be fucking dead. Because I would have blown my fucking head off.

No, I don't know. Hopefully this. You would have been a creative director. I would have been a CD making so much money at a big agency. Yeah. No, I probably would have somehow ventured over here. Yeah, I could see that. All this to say, I want anyone who is thinking about doing this to feel pretty, you should just write anyway if you want to make stuff.

And for features, too, there's a. other competitions you can enter the blacklist all that sort of stuff um a feature is a movie folks a feature is a movie features also seems like a more appealing thing when you are uh when you are someone who's not i mean trying to break in but sometimes with the with a tv show you you need someone to say hey yeah we're going to make a yeah we're going to make a season of this but if you write a movie in a way where i mean it's still going to cost the fuck a lot of money. Yeah, but look at, again, the Dupas Bros. Sure. They did a puffy chair. I think it was $10,000 or something like that. So you can write a feature or a short. And the Thunder Road

guy. Like that dude is so fucking good. And that movie was so good. And I think it was, I don't know how much he spent on it, but just that first short. That first short is amazing. We're talking about there's a guy who, it's a really beautiful little short that came out. He was a cop. and he's trying to get his... I haven't seen it in so long. He's trying to get his... He's at a friend's funeral.

Oh, I thought it was his wife's for some reason. It could be his wife. Well, the short might be different from the movie. Oh, okay. Whatever. Yeah. He's at a funeral. He's at a funeral. And he ends up singing Thunder Road. Yes.

And he's trying to get this boombox to play Thunder Road. He's trying to get this boom box to play Thunder Road. And it's his daughter's boombox or something. It's not working. And it's like... It's okay, honey, daddy, you're okay. Yes, right. And the guy is such a good actor.

And then off of that, I think he was able to get a little bit of funding and make this really great feature of the same name. And he's actually a really great follow of like, he's kind of a new duplas of like super indie, constantly making movies. Every year makes a new movie on his own terms and budget and all that sort of stuff.

This guy... Jim fuck It's not Jim, it's Jim fuck Yeah Jim fuck is Jim fuck really big On the road dude No but and you used to say a really good thing

Is that Because sometimes it feels like you do But it's important to remember that you don't need anyone's permission to make things Yes right Unless you're under 18 you need your parents permission That's true No you can just go start shooting stuff

Even if you're a kid you can just literally grab a camphoder Well careful what you shoot Yeah, I was going to say you go grab a gun. Loud sniff afterwards. You could shoot a gun. I found that, I'm sorry, Emil, continue. I interrupted you. No, but, and you know, my friend who had that show, it's not going to go, but he, and it may go

out another network or something, but, you know, he, even while that was, even while he thought that was maybe going to happen. was shooting another short for a proof of concept which is like which I I really love the idea. So I mean you can just get out there and start and stuff.

And yeah, a lot of proof of concepts like also sorry. Well twins are short just stands alone on its own. We never were like this could be a really good show. It started as like we should make a short and then it now is like this word

but we're also of like yeah it's just a short. made because we wanted to make it but we were able with that to bring it to people and show them that i just said what you said basically i used to want to uh when i was getting when i was just in my 20s and stuff i thought that what i aspired to was and it still is to many uh in many ways i wanted to act and write and do comedy stuff and i was always too scared to really get out and try anything. I didn't even know. I wish when I was like 20 that someone had told me about UCB because when I was 20, it was still, it was still such a good, and I was already here.

Yeah. And like I just wish that I had done that and found and grown with whatever. You're acting now, right? I mean, I'm trying to, but. Maybe do some for us right now. That damn, okay, what do you want? Let's see. Me and Phil are, um, we, we, own a company and we just... What kind of company? It's a women's furniture company. Okay.

And, uh... Oh, this will be easy for me. And we found some weird things on your computer and we're firing you. Hey, Ben. You come into our office real quick? Yeah. Have a seat, buddy.

Okay, hey. Nope, over there. Okay. Actually, maybe the first one? Yeah, back at the first one. Okay. Um, I'm sorry. Just before, can you actually say that?

The other one? Yeah. I know. Okay. So you want a good cop, back cop, cop this? Yeah. Okay. I'm working on that new account.

I just wanted you guys to... No, we saw that. Yeah, that's kind of the... That's what we wanted to talk to you about. You know, we monitor screens and keystrokes and all that sort of stuff, right? On your computers? On my work computer? Yeah, on your work computer.

It's all legal and everything. Except for what he was looking at. Exactly. So I'm going to be the bad cop, I guess. Oh, yeah. We found child porn on your computer. Goo. end scene

we got no we got it I mean I think we fucking got it dude that's giving up for friends and that's a wrap on Ben everybody I I but I wanted Ben Con is

goo I wanted to do like TV writing and stuff and it felt like the highest aspiration one could have in in Los Angeles in the entertainment instrument but then as I saw more and more of how the sausage was made in that my girlfriend at the time

was a TV writer, my roommate at the time was a TV writer. It just seemed like, yeah, it's cool and it's got an element of prestige, but at the same time, when a job ends, it's just like, am I ever going to work again? Did I, am I totally fucked? And then the work itself can be very challenging. You're at the office at the writer's room for 12 hours a day. And you're at the behest of a head writer or a showrunner. That oftentimes can be a fucking nut job or can be super cool and sick.

And even then, I mean, like you said, just in the last few years, it's changed where a TV show may have 20 episodes or however many and can keep you totally financially stable. Because I believe the industry minimum is five grand a week. Is it a TV writer? is it still? I don't think it's that. I thought it was like three. Whoa. So I remember it being at least 5,000.

That was like the base. It depends what the... God, I wish. It really depends on... Where you're at. Like streaming versus network. Oh, sure. And like what...

True. Yeah, I imagine staff writer's the lowest. And then it goes up from there, story editor. You also really have to love it, too, is one thing that I've learned. Well, there's a lot of horror stories now, right? I mean, it's like... Because you could be on a shitty show.

Or you could be on a good show and still struggling. I mean, there's that famous story of the guy who wrote for the bear. Everyone loved that first season, and they were darlings of the industry. They were going to the Writers Guild Awards. And, I mean, this was like two years ago. I don't remember all the details. But the story was that he was over-drafting his account just to be able to fly and get a suit and go down to the awards and stuff. And you're like, what the fuck?

is everyone out here, like, you know, fighting for, you know, that is a dream job for so many people in this town. You see a lot of Twitter bios that are like, former lawyer, now TV writer. I'm like, stop. Go back. Go back. Like, a former doctor, now TV writer, like, help people. Are you calling out Ken Jones?

No, we love Ken. We love Ken. We love Ken. We love Ken. can fired my dad. Wait, really? For those who can't hear, Ken, it's on site.

Your whole shit is whack, dude. Honestly, he's a masked singer guy. Like, I don't know. Fuck you, Ken. I'll tell you one thing. Kermit the Pra coming out on that show. You liked it. I didn't like it.

I love it. Me and Phil have these things where we, we don't talk about them often. Well, but our, our Venn diagrams are usually like circles. Yes. Yeah, just a purple circle. Yeah, overlapping circles. But there's these weird things on the edge where,

Because we're always sending each other things and we're going to be like, oh, doesn't this rock? And like... But also conversely, doesn't this suck? Yeah, yeah. But one time out of like a hundred,

the other one will go, I kind of liked it. And we're like, oh, well, let's talk about that one else. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And one of them was Kermit the Frog. It was the masked singer.

Yeah. And inside of the singing mast person was Kermit the frog. And Emil hated. Emil hated it. And I was like, look at this fucking shit. And he's like, I thought it was kind of cute.

Wait, do you not like Kermit? or did you just not like Kermit on the Masked Singer? It was years ago. It's hard to remember the exact... I think the main take... It was just very dystopian and strange of like too many layers of commodification within this thing that a lot of people were...

Ben, do you want to do another scene just in case there's any... What are they called? What are the people... Agents? Pickups? No. Casting directors?

Yes, in case there's any casting directors watching. There's none. But I'm still pissed at the kind of, no, no, that's the, if you want to, that's the attitude that's never going to help you. I'm still pissed off that that commercial I shot hasn't come out. Yeah, what's going on? I don't know. I searched, I searched it. It's, it's a, the company is C Spire. I can say that. Who cares? And the name of the commercial was cousin William. Do you think maybe beefed it? What? Do you think maybe beefed it? No, because they also, I did have that thought. But if I emailed them, you beefed it. The clients, the clients, the marketing people for the company were. were there on set watching. Of course we released it. You beefed it. They, they, they, they, on their YouTube channel, they had the other commercial that was shot in the same soundstage the same day. They had it up for like a week. And then they took it down. Sounds like you beefed it. No, then they took it down. You know what we could do to get you back? What? Another scene. Okay. Here's what you're two. We're two employees at a large women's. wholesale furniture place. You're our boss and you found

something on our shared computer. And go. Phil, Emil, can you guys come in here for a second? Fuck off. Excuse you? That's not how you talk to me. We're on Reddit.

That's not how you talk to me, the boss. Shut the fuck up, Gary. I know you guys are D-E-I hires. Hey. Fuck you. Because we're Italian? Because we're two Italians, dude. You know what? I like the cut of your guys.

Damn. Are they Italian? Is that D-E-I? Anyway. Did you say curvy in Italian? No. I thought you said curvy in Italian. I said D-E-I. Damn.

Are they Italian? Right here, baby. Right here. Well, I was just like you guys know that we're having a pizza party in the break room. Oh. You know that you Italians love pizza. You know what? I'm a little offended, but I'm coming on in.

Also, you're both getting promoted. Oh, because we've been doing such a good job. I was going to do goo again. Like it was my calling card. Why didn't you just do the girl? Gu. And Cun. Nope, he beat it.

He did it. He actually beeped it. Wait, I've got one more. Okay. Jesus. We're all close for. friends. Okay. And, um, this is going to be a stretch. Yeah, no kidding. Me and Phil, uh, we found out that your fiance, uh, died, is cheating on you. My fiance? Do I know yet? No, we're telling you.

Oh, man. Man, you guys, I love my fiance. Wait, uh, Ben, thanks for coming to coffee. Listen, we have something to tell you about Richard. Oh, man, what's going on? Oh, you mean my fiance? Yeah. I love him so much. Don't you guys just, I can't wait to get married to Richard. Yeah. The whole thing about Richard is. What about it? Isn't he great? Actually. He works at that women's, uh, furniture store. And that's what we want to talk to you about.

He's actually a straight guy and he's been fucking a lot of the women that come in to buy women's furniture. Most of the women. Most of the women. Richard is straight and he's been fucking around on you. You! Yes! Yes.

Is that what you were doing it for? Yes. You were setting me up for a goo. Yeah. Yeah. A perfect goo. I wish someone, I wish we had a slide whistle. goo. So, yeah, if there's any casting directors and you're interested in something like that,

some guy fucking beefing it on your. Well, wait, I wanted to. Hold on. It's going to be a gooer. It's going to be a beef. There's not much in between. What do you want? The goo or the beef, maybe. People are looking for beef out there. People look at for goat. What time are we at, by the way? Oh, okay. Great. We, I think. think we should just break right into the bonus episode because I'm enjoying this conversation very much. But also, I just wanted to talk a little bit more about how not soul-sucking it is, but just how there are so many dead ends. Like, I know someone who sold an animated pilot. I forgot what production company bought it. They bought it. And then, or studio bought it.

And then the executive who bought it left the studio. And then the new executive that came in was like, well, I don't want to touch any of the previous property that that guy bought because I don't want his stink color. You don't get any of the adoration, but you get all the downside. Also, I mean, it's just fucking, you know, to even get staffed on a show or something is so lucky. Like, you know, when I first came out here, it was because I worked on a pilot with another comic and a production company attached themselves to it. And we were like, holy shit, we're going to be hot shit TV writers. It obviously didn't work out like that. But then we got an agent and then we're going out for staffing stuff and you get to a place where you're

like, I would fucking die to get staffed on Fuller House. You're just like, you do anything to like work on a fucking show you would hate. Yeah. Because it pays well and it's consistent. Yeah, because it pays well. And also it's just getting you on the board too. Right. A lot of like that sort of shit. Um, uh, your friend sold into animation. Oh, yeah, and it's even more global than that. I had a show at a network who were developing my animated TV series, and that year, they won Best Picture, their movies department, and then they said, we're not doing animated shows anymore.

We're not even going to do any more new TV shows. We're just going to focus on features. So, like, it can get way more global than that, too. And that's the weird part of having so many different places. is that they can be, like, I don't know, it's all just a little bit more shifty of like, you know, it's not HBO is this exact thing. They can focus on all these other different sort of bullshit.

And so my aspirations have shifted and I think less than wanting to do, I mean, sure, acting would be nice, but I wanted to then, I thought, okay, the ultimate goal is to create and sell and make a TV show. And I got really excited when I had a guy expressed interest, an accomplished, what would you call him? Producer? Yeah. And we, I pitched him on a few ideas. And the only reason that I got that, I mean, I knew him prior, but we hadn't spoken in many years.

And the only reason that I got in that position to begin with was because I did those succession videos. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and which just speaks to how amazing the power of just one good video. Right, yeah, for sure. But, yeah, but that's also a, I find that a dangerous thing on its own. I, like, feel bad calling out. Do you remember that woman who was, she went famous for lip-sinking Trump videos? Sarah.

Sarah, something. Oh, yeah. And she was fucking everywhere. and someone called through the future of combat I mean well that's

I was feeling psycho friends going into like pitch things and telling us that they were like you know who would be great

for this and I think he said but we've never heard her talk before yeah like she only lip sinks things and she got a

I think she got a Netflix special yes right it was a special and I mean I don't know one single person who watched this thing

and I don't know I mean, who knows? Maybe I'll eat my words, but it doesn't seem like we're going to hear a lot from... Her again? Yeah, and it can be like... Hey, maybe 2024, if you know what I mean.

If it goes our way. If it goes our way. But it's a... It's a bit of a like double-edged sword where they're like... You know, they want you to do your... Do your thing.

And when it doesn't have like a... substantive true yeah when they when the so there was a agency that reached out and i i mean i still i guess am technically repped by them but i have literally haven't spoken to them in over a year because they were they they at first said oh you can do all these characters and impressions pretty well what other characters do you have we think that you should submit a tape to s and i was like okay uh okay so i came up i had a bunch of shit that i had done before just that i didn't show anybody and I put together they were like the deadlines in two weeks can you can you do it and I'm like okay I've never done a character real before I did it I wasn't happy with it so I told them

eh I I maybe next year maybe we'll do it next year and they're like that's totally fine what else you got and I was like well this this you know these ideas for these things and I ended up just getting reached out to by what's his name what oh I found him in my eye And so he and I worked on, he really liked this one idea that I had, and we worked on it for a year, I think maybe over a year. It was a long time. Yeah. Where I would, he would give me, it was basically, yeah, I really like this idea. Can you shoot a proof of concept?

Shot a proof of concept. It was kind of different, but it was enough to get him like, okay, this is awesome. I really love this. Let's work on it together. You would give me notes. I would make the iterations of those notes and give it back to him and it just was that back and forth.

Yeah, you got to build in rounds with producers. It was exhausting. And by the end, I mean, I love the guy and he loves me and there was obviously no bad blood or anything. But toward the end, it was so different than what I had originally thought. In a good way, like I do think that

it changed in a good way. but then my vision for it really changed and I wanted to go like you said like more rated R adult kind of thing and he was like that's not what I'm seeing at all I'm seeing it like the total opposite like really sweet and gentle and stuff and it just was I also my enthusiasm for it had cratered and I just was like man I don't even know if this is fucking doable anymore and then we started doing the podcast so it really took a back seat and I still want to do it but I'm nervous in the sense that, like, I know that these days the way to do it

is to shoot something yourself and fund it. Right. But it's just, I don't know. I don't know. I've been shooting a lot of music videos for the band recently. And it is not that hard. And you remember Keebler,

we used to fucking shoot those. Oh, yeah. Just like shits and gigs. And those look good and feel good and all that sort of stuff. So we're going to go into the bonus episode. now, Ben and Emile's show.com. We're going to talk about some other shit.

I have fun. We're going to talk about some other stuff. We're going to talk about some other stuff. But we're also going to continue this conversation, but I just didn't want to break it up by like, all right, let's end the episode and let's go fucking back there and pee and stuff. Basically, they're all just like one big episode. If you want more, there's going to be a bunch more at Ben andemielder Show.com. Ben and Mailshow.com.

See ya. Fade to black.