The Ben Mulroney Show - A busy weekend of headlines, head scratchers and base jumpers.

Episode Date: July 27, 2026

Guest: Tony Chapman, Host of the award winning podcast Chatter that Matters, Founding Partner of Chatter AI If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://link.chtbl.com/bms⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Also, on youtube -- ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@BenMulroneyShow⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Insta: ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠ Twitter: ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠ TikTok: ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠ Executive Producer:  Mike Drolet Reach out to Mike with story ideas or tips at [e-mail] Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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The police are very, very busy in the city of Toronto. We're going to start with a story here of obviously national importance. This is a story. I guess we could call it Canadian violence. that closed roads in front of the American consulate because for the second time in just a few months, a bullet was fired at that very important institution around 446 this morning from a passing white Honda. Thank goodness they have that that information. No license plate, obviously.

And here's what happened. The police gave chase, significant chase, all the way to. the Don Valley Parkway, and if you're not from Toronto, it is essentially a highway that takes you from the south of the city all the way to the north on the east side of the city. And they gave chase upwards of 140 kilometers an hour. And let's listen. Oh, no. Yeah, let's listen to Toronto Police Deputy Chief Frank Barreto about what they found at the scene. At the scene here, evidence of one single projectile discharge was found, a shell casing as well as some damage to the front of the facade of the U.S. consulate.

Yeah, so second time, I believe the first time was in March, right? Anyways, a few months ago, just a few months ago. And frankly, that's two times too many as far as I'm concerned. You might be asking yourself, what happened on that chase? Well, after 140 kilometers an hour, they, the police stopped the high speed chase because it became too dangerous, which I get. I absolutely get. There was a little part of my brain that asked like, why no police chopper? Because if the police, the cars have to stop, the police, a police chopper could have kept a tail on it until some other police vehicles could have found it.

Yeah, well, yeah, so let's listen to the Toronto Police Chief talking about that chase. Of the danger posed by the rate of speed of the suspect vehicle at around Don Mills and the DVP. The pursuit was discontinued as per our procedures and the officers discontinued their following. Yeah, I'm, I've, listen, I know the police did everything they could and they have procedures and you've got to, you've got to balance your desire to catch that alleged criminal and end that chase with an arrest with public safety. I get that. But I wonder if your protocols say at some point you got to stop chasing, what are the protocols under which the chase ends and a police chopper pursue?

Well, strict municipal budget constraints. You've got a reliance on alternate technology. And apparently there's data showing that choppers are not cost effective. You know, maybe not cost effective, but could have been useful here. The OPP actively share their helicopters with the Toronto Police Service through a cooperative. But I don't know. There's part of me just wishes they could have had that bridge of a helicopter. And then from the air they could have said, all right, the guy took this exit.

Just so happens we've got a bunch of cops over there. And boom, we've arrested the guy who tried to shoot up the consulate. I'd like resolution. That's where we're at. It's remarkable considering the police budget in Toronto. Yeah. I mean, we were looking up, what are some of the places you saw that have police choppers? You were going through some.

St. Louis. Yeah. Well, obviously, St. Louis. that's a huge crime area. I think he said Tallahassee. Tallahassee. There's this shared with the sheriff's office. My point is Tallahassee is like 300,000 people.

And it's not a question of not being cost effect. It's a question of like where do we want to spend our money. And I don't know. Listen, we're going to talk later about how Billy Bishop Airport is not going to be expanded. I don't know. You keep a chopper down there. If the chopper had been there, you would have caught the guy before he got on the DVP. That's for sure.

Right. Anyway, I'm not, I'm not trying to quibble or try to play Monday morning quarterback. I just wonder where the chopper is. It's hard, though. I mean, considering how long, they picked up the chase, I guess, closer to the highway. Yeah. And by the time they'd be considering how fast it was, that chase was over in five minutes, not even. No, I get it.

For them to have been able to get a chopper from the airport over, it would have, I mean, 15 minutes at least. For me, it's more like just wishful thinking. Wouldn't it have been great to have a chopper? That's all. That's all. Okay. So on one hand, you got road closures and you got violence between Canadians and Americans. and on the other hand, you've got, well, what should be friendship between Canada and the United States and the opening of the Gordy Howe Bridge.

And before we play this music, the music is just absolutely fitting. Somebody said it. I'm not the one who said it. But this is the music we picked to celebrate the opening of the bridge, which has proven to be contentious to say the least. Yes, I think I'm listening. Even though it wasn't my idea, I can't take credit for it. I feel smart for sharing it with the country. It is.

I mean, it's so I propo. It is. It is. So the Gordy Howe International Bridge officially opened. It would have opened months ago had we called it the Trump-Haw friendship bridge, but that's a story for another day. The best part of this story, and everybody that I've talked to feels the same way,

when they find out that Gordy Howe's grandson, also named Gordy Howe drove a Dodge Charger all with his wife, there's the two of them across that bridge first. That's the coolest part of the story. The coolest part of the story. Whoever his idea that was, well done. Absolutely. But this is great news.

This is a demonstration. This is going to show, this will remind Donald Trump with raw numbers and data, how important this bridge is not just to us, but to him too. Do you really think he's going to pay attention to that? Or he's going to learn that last? Do you really, really think that? Look, it's Monday. Hope springs eternal at the beginning of the week, you know?

It's usually by Tuesday or Wednesday that the hope. Oh, no, it's by the end of the first hour. The jadedness sets in. Oh, yeah. Hey, Mr. Trump, there are forest fires and wildfires in Europe, too. Yeah, I know you think that it's just us and our poor forest management, which could be a thing. I'm not sure.

But they do blaze in Europe, too, and they're bad. They're very, very bad. France and Spain are dealing with some of the worst they've had in recent memory. There's an entire, entire areas. Like August is a huge, huge tourist time in the parts of France that are dealing with these wildfires. And Spain as well, they've got 35 to 40 degree heat. And now the one in France is contained. I just saw the craziest video of in France because of the fires and equestrian. They wanted to save their horses.

They let them go free. and there was about, it looked like eight or nine horses running down the street through a town. Yeah. Just free. Yeah.

No, it's absolutely cool. But this is, this is, I mean, people are going to, if you are a climate change advocate, you are going to jump on board this, of this as proof of climate change, even though I don't need more proof of climate change. I believe it's real,

but I don't know that this is necessarily proof of that. It's just these things happen this summer. When, when temperatures hit 40 degrees in place, that are arid, you're going to get things like this happening. But the largest wildfire on record in Avila, with 79,000 people evacuated, 30,000 confined, this is, this is big.

This is a big, big, big, big deal. And what did our prime minister thank the Mexicans for sending firefighters up here? Remember that? Yeah, absolutely, he did. And apparently there are American firefighters up here too, but no thanks for them. No thanks for them. Which I don't think it's very on brand for this president, for this prime minister rather. We have firefighters that go down to the U.S. all the time.

I agree. All the time. But I think, you know, trying to make a political point like that in that moment, I don't know that that's what I expected of this prime minister. I think this prime minister was supposed to be above that. And if Americans are coming up here to sacrifice their lives to have, help us, you can thank those firefighters. But to pretend they're not even here and just thank them. It reminds me of when my brother and sister, my older sister and my young, my, she's, well,

she's older. So my sister is older than me and my brother who is younger than me. My eldest, my youngest brother did not yet exist. And the two of them ganged up on me to say that I was adopted. And there's a recording. What sibling hasn't ever done that? Yeah, but it's when they gang up, They get you on both ends. But I remember when my sister, when I said, there's a recording of me saying, I love my sister and I love my brother. And in this, it's not a break in the recording. My uncle passes the microphone to my sister and says, Caroline, tell me about your sibling. She says, I have one brother.

His name is Mark, and I love him very much. And I'm sitting right next to her. Now, my sister is one of the greatest human beings of all time. And she would tell you that was beneath her. So this. No, then it's quietly, she'd be proud of it. This, or she loved it. But she would say, I don't believe that anymore.

Mr. Carney, these people came up here to sacrifice to help us with our wildfires. They deserved acknowledgement, even if our feelings are hurt and even if the president has done wrong. All right, we're going to take a break, but when we come back, there is some craziness of foot in Seattle. That's next. Paying too much for wireless is just the way it is, right? Wrong. Escape to Freedom Mobile and get a plan with coast-to-coast. coverage plus roaming in over 120 destinations starting at just 35 bucks a month.

Conditions applied. Details at freedommobile.ca. Hi, I'm Jane Koston, former writer and podcaster for places like the New York Times, the Atlantic and National Review. And now I'm here to hang out with you. Five days a week on what a day, Crooked's Daily News podcast. That's right. Now who's respected on both sides? Okay, yeah, it's not me. It's probably still just Dolly Parton. Moving on. These days, it's hard to separate what matters from all the noise, especially when the noise somehow also feels like it's made out of knives? That's why every weekday, the team and I scour the headlines to bring you the stories that matter most to the way you live in just 20 minutes. Listen to the show wherever you get your podcasts.

Hey, Intrepid. Yeah. Have you recently watched that tremendous film Leapeless in Seattle? I believe it's sleepless in Seattle. Not today. It's not. It's sleepless, I know. Leapless in Seattle.

as in leaping off the space needle. Oh, I see. Yeah, so for people who don't know what the space needle is in Seattle, it's like a meager, pathetic version of the CN Tower. And they've got this. It's like Cien Tower without the tip. Yeah. Well, it reminds me of the Calgary Tower.

And I saw this stand of comic once who said, like, back in the day when it was the tallest building, it was a great thing to climb to the top of. But now today, there are buildings all around it that are infinitely higher. And can you imagine being a tour guide at the top of that? He says, now if you look to the west, you can see Bob making a cup of coffee. And anyway, so, but still, it's still a thing.

But then what they have there, however, is an observation deck with glass walls that actually allow quite easily for you to jump above them, like climb up them, jump to the other side. How easily? Apparently. Apparently very easily. And two of these dudes, at least I think their dudes, jumped, climbed and scurried. But then again, it's Seattle. You might not be able to gender them.

Hey, that's an act of violence. So we're not, we are peace loving on this show. Anyway, let's listen to the moment that, well, let's talk about the ABC News described the moment the base jumpers did this. Onlookers stunned. The incident unfolding just before 9 p.m. on Friday. video showing one man standing on the ledge doing a back flip and then leaping from the 605 foot structure. One parachute seemed descending to the ground before vanishing from camera view.

Police say the pair, who they identified as base jumpers, entered the space needle with purchase tickets that were then scanned. Yeah, so they went to the top and they jumped off and apparently they are still at large. And it occurred to me, if you don't know what a base jumper is, like they're parachutes, the backpacks that the parachutes are in, not very big, they kind of just look like backpacks. Yeah. So you could be forgiven if you thought they were going to do something far more tragic than what they did.

You know when they're going to get caught? They had gopros on their helmets. Oh, yeah. And the chances of them posting, I mean, they're doing it for the views. Of course, of course. They'll get found. Doing it for the clout is a big problem these days. And you'll remember that three weeks earlier, there were these two Russians that climbed to the top of the Empire State Building and they unfurled a big black flag and all of us were thinking, oh, no, please don't let it be political.

Please let it not be about X, Y, or Z. No, it was a marriage proposal. It was a marriage proposal. And he got down on one knee and she apparently said yes. And the newscasters were with their helicopters, because they got choppers, yeah. Because I got choppers, yeah. We're broadcasting live. Another kissing, Kimberly.

Actually, to share this with you as bizarre a New York City moment as I've ever seen. I love this city. I love stuff like that. And that is the cleansing tonic that we give you before we get into the sadder news. And if you're from Toronto, or if you've been listening to this show, then this might remind you of a story we talked about just a few short days ago in the city. of Toronto. Investigators believe that at least two individuals were actively shooting at each other

at a live event called Bite of Seattle and very similar to what happened here in the city of Toronto. Hmm, this hurts. A 15-year-old male suspect was detained. Total of three people killed, four others wounded. And there was a guy who was doing a lot. podcast inside a tent at this bite of Seattle. Let's listen to the moment that this guy,

who realized that he was, realized that he wasn't just podcasting about the food at the bite of Seattle, but he was actually possibly in a fight for his life. I'm like 2,000 subscribers away. That is literally one viral video and 200K. I'll get that plaque that says 100K. Shooting.

Oh, shoot. Get down, get on, get on, get on. Yeah, just. Get down. Oh, it's right there. Oh, shit. Go, go, no, no, go. Get the register to come. Get the register and the tips.

And the tips. I mean, there's stuff to chuckle about for sure. But can you, I'm again, like, these are things that we used to be able to go to. Like, this exact thing happened in Toronto at the, the Salton St. Clair. Yeah. And there are people who. And no arrest made on that yet either. There are people who will never go to a public event again in Toronto.

I can only imagine the same can be said for Seattle. These things used to be safe. And there are those who will come out and say, well, of course, the numbers tell us that it's safe. It's not safe if you don't feel safe. That's the only thing that matters. You can point to as much data as you can throw at me. I don't care if you tell me that the subway is safe or this park at night. is safe, ask yourself, would you send your daughter alone on that subway or into that park?

You know, with a line up enough of these events at these street festivals, I'm not sending my kids. I'm probably not going myself. And that is a crying, crying shame. Well, it's, it's really disturbing because you want to feel safe at these things. Yeah. But how much is it cost to keep these festivals safe? Yeah. What do you have to put into it? That's the big argument in Toronto right now. And in Vancouver, I mean, they had the person with the van last year. Yeah, and then you got the Christmas markets in Europe. And the case we're going to be talking about, again, just happened on Saturday in Germany. Yeah.

We're going to be talking about that in a bit, which was another horrendous situation. Absolutely. I do want to, I think I want to close this segment with something a little more uplifting. I want to talk to you as a dad because every now and then, like, my kids are, my kids are so smart. but I promise my sons that if I ever talked positively about them on this show, I would refer to them by name. But I'm about to tell you a story where I do not refer to them by name, so you'll know what kind of story I'm telling you.

And we were driving somewhere. We're going to Mississauga to visit my aunt. And so we were driving through the city before we got onto the highway. And they know that I love me some food. And I saw a taco restaurant that I had never seen before. And there's a big sign that says tacos. Then underneath it's got the name of it. It says, Takaria does something.

And so I said, Tacos, boys, tacos. And then I said, oh, Takaria. And one son said, what does Takaria mean? And I said, from context, man, from context, you should be able to get that. I said, context is like a cafeteria. That's where you eat food. So Takaria is, oh, a place where you eat tacos. I said, exactly.

And then the other one said, I thought Takaria was, I thought Takaria was tacos in Spanish. I said, Tacos is tacos in Spanish. They are smart. One of them, one of them is reading

a crime and punishment for pleasure. But, and I'm not saying whether he's the one who said this, but is capable of saying that too. It is the joy and the frustration of teenage boys. They are capable of extreme emotional intelligence, intelligence intelligence, and also knuckle-dragging dumbness. What was the stupidest thing you think that you said when you were a teen?

I can tell you for myself, what it was. I was in Florida with my parents when I was like 13 years old again. And we went down for a day. We were in West Palm Beach. walking around, looking at all the nice galleries and stuff. And we went into this place selling expensive art. And I looked, and we were looking at it. And the guy came by and I said, ooh, is this an original?

And my dad laughed and laughed and laughed because it was an art gallery with originals. Well, I had a, I was in a building where the pool was on the roof. And my sons and I took a tour and they saw the pool on the roof. And then we went back to our room. And I said, I want you to go up to the pool. And I get this text from a few minutes later. He's like, Dad, what floor is the pool on? I said, do you remember seeing anything above you but sky?

And he said, no. He's like, do the math, man. Oh, I love him so much. I genuinely love spending every single second with those kids. But it's these stories that I'm going to be sharing forever. Yeah, poor kid when he's getting married. No, no. And that's why I never share their names when I make, when I,

tell these stories, but I love them completely. Hey, we're going to take a break when we come back. Our good friend Tony Chapman joins us. The CEO of Cracker Barrel is departing. There's backlash. We'll tell you why. Well, there is no stopping Christopher Nolan, despite a wildly politically charged debate

about the casting choices for his new film, The Odyssey. It is doing gangbusters with a global gross right now, over $650 million. I mean, I don't know if it, it'll hit $750, no problem. Three quarters of a billion dollars is a success by any metric. And so to talk about this story and how he overcame that, and so much more, we're joined by our good friend, Tony Chapman.

Thanks for being here. Oh, he's a pleasure. So this could have gone either way. This could have been a bust. Well, if it was a dud movie, he would have been worried. But the fact that they had so much controversy. including Elon Musk waiting in, just created a lot of noise, a lot of attention and a lot of interest.

And people wanted to prove one side or the other side wrong. And when it came out and people saw it was a magnificent film. And here's the interesting thing about Nolan. He shot it on IMAX, you know, 70 millimeter. It's authentic. It's way films used to be made. It's not a CGI on a green screen. And he encouraged people to watch it that way.

And all of that is completely counter to what we're dealing now with content at the speed of life. And I think that he proved everybody wrong. And I got to say that Nolan is going now, he's now up there with, you know, Spilberg movies. Oh yeah. Tarantino movies. You know, even in the past, you would have said, you know, Altman movies, that he is bigger than the actors. All he has to do is to say, I'm willing to do it. He's going to get the funding. And that's how Hollywood works. He also, uh, I don't, in all of this, I never heard him address the casting. I heard other people talking about it. But as far as I could tell, he kept his mouse shut. I think he kind of, I think he knew a great movie. He was like, you know what, we're just going to get butts and seats,

and we're going to let the work speak for itself. Isn't that the way to do it, though, if you're so confident in your craft, and you know that these people are going to be proved wrong, rather than going out there and saying, I want to defend myself, when your audience defends you, that's the marketers dreams when the ambassadors for your brand isn't a TV commercial, it's a user, someone that's experienced it. Second fastest film to clear $100 million. It's going to a billion dollars. Yeah, I think it will. Oh, it'll be his first billion-dollar film. Yeah, it's, I mean, he can write his own, he was already able to write his own check beforehand. This, I don't know, I don't know where he goes from here.

But it's, it's, who said this? Someone said, as of July 26th, a few clones of the, oh, that's right. That was a massive problem. There was a leak of the film online. Millions of people saw it via X. There was a bootlegged film. They've mostly flooded away by mislabeled files. But it actually showed a Rick roll.

It started with a Rick roll, right? And if you don't know what a Rick roll is, is when people say, click on this link, it's very important that you see this and you click on it. And next thing you know, it's you watching a Rick Astley video that you can't stop, him singing, never going to give you up. But yeah, this guy is he, this is everything he does. Even the 2 million people who watch that on an X, let's say 25% of it say, I need to see this on a big screen.

That's just a TV ad. I mean, listen, a million a half don't see it's worth well, then you just discard it and credited. But he's got a runaway. And as you said, he can write his own ticket. And Hollywood is all about your ability to write a ticket. There's about 10,000 movies every year that people dream of making and about half a 1% get made.

And it's only because they find financing. And financing is a big star or in this case, a big director. What's Hollywood going to do? Because they're always chasing the next great thing. And two months ago, or a month and a half ago, we were talking about, you know, them finding YouTubers and turning them into directorial artis, right? With backrooms and obsession. And, you know, those movies were made on a shoestring budget and they've made a ton of money.

And then you got this. You got a genius director, massive investment by a studio and the return that comes with it and guaranteed Oscar prestige. And scarcity that I can't see. I have signed up to see the movie the end of August. this must be good. See the Odyssey? Yeah, with IMAX.

They create that sense of scarcity because there's limited. What is going to happen, and it's the same problem plaguing the radio industry, is we get so consumed by our channel thinking that's the hero. The hero is the content. You're the content. Whether you're on radio or a podcast or on YouTube, I enjoy what you have to say. And I mean necessarily, I really like what you have to say. And the same thing with movies.

So you say, what's it going to happen to the movie industry? Get into the content business. find out what the audience is looking for, find out a unique angle on it, and put it out there. And sometimes it belongs on IMAX, like The Odyssey. And other times it belongs on my cell phone because it's some jackass video that you're going to watch for 45 seconds. But there's still content and there still matter. Trouble with the movie industries, they're trying to do what should be on YouTube and somehow find a way to monetize it on the big screen. And I don't think that works.

It's not the screen that matters. It's the message. So they say that fashion is pain, and I can see, I'm sure that's a thing, but it's not supposed to really be a pain. And Zara has a problem with something called death pants. Yeah, so these are pants that are wide-legged, so they're coming back sort of that gypsy look. But what happened is a couple of people have tripped on these pants. Somebody's broken their nose, broken their hand. So they started labeling them death pants.

Zara did? No. The consumer did. Okay. And next thing, you know, this meme and everybody's sending videos of how they're dying. in their death mat. And this is great. This is for Zara. This is exactly what you want because, again, they are disposable fashion. They come in, they come out of their stores. Everybody now wants to go and say, what do they look like? Oh my God, do you mean you got traffic coming into my store?

That's kind of good marketing. And so they let it go and they let it flow. And this is the interesting thing about it is in the past, if you tripped on your pants, you might have told two people, if you were lucky to be around two people, then you would have forgotten about it. Now, you sent a video out and 500 people becomes 5,000 becomes 5 million. So I don't think. think they engineered this on purpose. I don't think they'd want to create pants that people tripped on, but I can tell you that inside their boardroom, they're kind of smiling that that had happened because I have to believe their pants are sold out and now they're thinking about do we reorder, which is not Zara, Zara as you're in and you're out, or do we find the next

new thing? And that's the magic of retail in your Zara. Disposable fashion moving to speed of life. Yeah, well, disposable fashion, sometimes it moves too fast, right? Now, that's what the whole thing is. If you don't, you get it, there's gone. That's, you know, that's a Zara model that let the gap used to own that. that, but it was seasonal. Yeah. And then even before that, the Bay was really seasonal, my summer and my winter wardrobe. Then the gap kind of put us every six-week window.

Zeras every six days, they're bringing new fashion in the stores. But Tony, how much would you pay to see Ben wearing those pants? I would pay a lot to see him wearing those pants. And you put them out on YouTube, and I tell you, I like you on YouTube. I told you that. We would get so many clicks. What people don't know is they never see what I'm wearing below the shirt. Sometimes not much.

Yeah. I ruined my day. I've had to stare at your ugly toes, Shrek. What are you talking about? Lovely shoes. We got a little bit of time. Let's jump in the city of Ottawa ad campaign. It's never a good thing when a city puts forth a campaign and then has to retract it, is it?

Or anybody for that matter. Anybody, but this is the greatest hairball ever coughed up. First of all, letting our public service union is argue to stay at home. The world's going back to work. Yeah. And Ottawa is all public service. So when they stay at home, Ottawa dies. So now they're trying to get people back and spend time after work.

And you can't push a rope. Think about it. You can't push a rope. You have to pull a rope. And here's the problem with these kinds of things and why they have to retract it. It's just bad marketing, bad strategy. And what I would love our government to say is to our people that we pay for. is you come back to work or you resign.

Yeah, listen, everyone knows I'm my, my very firm position on this. Unless you signed a contract before the, or during the pandemic that allowed you to work at home, you revert back to your previous work conditions, full stop. That means it's pretty clear. But, you know, an ad campaign encouraging public servants to extend their time downtown after work. I don't see the big deal in that. I mean, you've got to, you want to have a downtown that people can appreciate. You look desperate.

The city looks desperate. But it's also to logically let them know, like, hey, we're all in this together. And if you don't, you know, if you don't buy, you know, have a lunch and maybe. But do a campaign called Ottawa after hours and after work hours and celebrate all the great bars, the pedestrian walkways, the shopping, things you can do after hours and create a positive side to it versus saying, please stay after work and support my business. I see. I mean, yeah, well, you put it that way.

It's a pretty boneheaded. All right. We're going to take a break when we come back. We got a few more stories to talk about it. including the one we told you about before, that Cracker Barrel has said, or at least the CEO, has seen better days. And I'm going to give you a few responses to what my sons were saying about tacos

and pools on roofs. That's coming up next on the Ben Moines. Well, thank you very much for sticking around with us. And thank you, Tony Chapman, for sticking around as well. We had, what were we talking about before? We had a Cracker Barrel. Sometimes a logo is more than a logo, huh? Because it was a year ago, almost 11 months.

ago, almost 11 months ago to the day, I think, where they scrapped their logo change. And for people who don't know Cracker Barrel, it's sort of one of those restaurants that typically you see off the highway in the South, more or less. And it's a family restaurant. And the logo is yellow and brown. And there was an old-timey guy hanging out on a barrel. They got rid of that guy and just made it Cracker Barrel. And that people were in Tizzy because of it.

And it's taken almost a year, but now the CEO is feeling the full force of that, the anger of the fans of the restaurant. And resigned. Yeah. So a couple of things that's really important. First of all, Cracker Barrel meant a lot to a lot of people because it's been around a long time. And there was a consistent menu, didn't serve alcohol, had a great little gift shop attached to it.

And every Cracker Barrel was the same. Same place for the rocking chair at the front. Same place inside for the thing. Everything was identical. It was very comfortable. comfortable place for people to stop because they knew what they were getting. Private equity shows up, buys it. Next thing you know, they introduce alcohol.

They start finding, let's find efficiencies. Oh, you know what? We should change the way this restaurant looks because now our sales are declining. And they start messing up with a good thing. It would be like Harley Davidson launching a motorcycle with an engine that didn't sound like a Harley. And that's what they did when they changed their logo. It's not a logo that they changed. What they changed is a promise.

And that promise was retro consistent. I've been there, my dad took me there, my grandfather took me there. That's what Cracker Barrow stood for. It wasn't meant to be messed with. And they did. And again, we all put the blame on the CEO, but I can know that private equity, who paid a lot of money for it, was trying to extract all the efficiencies. What efficiencies means is let's cut things that the consumer doesn't notice.

Well, they noticed it. Smaller portions, higher prices. Why is there alcohol in a Cracker Barrel? Because that's not the values of this place. Why do they change everything? How did they make money, not selling it? alcohol. Volume.

It was unbelievable. That place would be packed. It was a massive yellow billboard. People look for it on the, on the, on the highway. My wife, when we drove to Florida, had to stop at a Cracker Barrel because she loved the chicken fried steak. I said, you can't eat it. It's not good.

It's not, it's going to go right to your arteries. And she, she knew, she just knew that that was what she had to have. And that's what Crackerbell was. It's very magnetic. And again, you can't, you know, it's, it's like taking the, if you took the coffee out of Tim Hortons. is like what they did with the logo. They signaled that everything that we value is up for grabs now,

chasing profit over the promise. And this is a great lesson for anybody listening. You have a brand that people embrace and love. Don't mess with it just because you're bored with it or don't mess with it because somebody wants to get a little more from it. Understand that it's so hard to have that stickiness. And if you have it, embrace it and never let that go. And they did.

Yeah, you know what, a story that just popped to mind while we were talking. So I hope you don't mind to bring it up. I suspect you know about it. The whole controversy with Ben and Jerry's, right? Because they sold Ben and Jerry's, they're two real guys, two hippies from Vermont. And I used to go to summer camp in Vermont, so we'd always go to the Ben and Jerry's factory. That was a field trip that we would do. And it was part of the lore of Vermont.

And they were hippies and they were lefties and they were peace and love and all this stuff. But they were irreverent in the names and the titles of the different flavors. Cherry Garcia. Cherry Garcia was a great one. And they embraced counterculture and all. that stuff. And it was great. It was wonderful. So if you were to hippie, this was your way to participate in that lifestyle. Well, they then sold off to a Unilever. The Unilever. And when the people of that company were still operating Ben and Jerry's took, you know, what hippies of the old days

became the leftists of today. They started taking deeply political positions outwardly and saying it on behalf of the company. Unilever didn't like that. And then it was either Ben or Jerry is now sitting around saying, oh, gosh, well, now we want to buy our company back. And it's like, well, you sort of sold it. And it's making a lot of money. And so no. And they're very upset. But you sort of, that's the deal you made, right?

Well, they enshrined in their contract that would stay in Vermont. Yeah. That they were allowed to be politically irrelevant, irrelevant, irrelevant. Irreverent? A reverent. Thank you. Politically irreverent. And what happened is you right?

They got, instead of going sort of that fun and cheeky Cherry Garcia, they went very aggressive. And they were very anti-Trump and Republican Party. And of course, if you're an organization like a Unilever, you're going to say, I can't let this outlier. Yeah. So, you know, it's too late to buy it back. You made the sale. But what Unilevers might have to deal with is the fact that if suddenly Ben and Jerry become opposition to everything we stand for, what are we going to do with that brand? Because that brand really was.

People embraced it. It was great ice cream. but it had a playfulness to it. And if that playfulness becomes nastiness, then that whole, again, promise to that brand disappears. Yeah, but I think you can, I think you bifurcate Ben and Jerry the people from Ben and Jerry the brand.

I mean, they're no longer the same thing, right? They used to be, but Ben and Jerry themselves chose to take the money, right? To chose to do the capitalist thing, take the money and run. Yeah. And so now, I'm perfectly capable of recognizing. Look, Hagen-Daz is a made-up word. And people think, you know.

Yeah. But, you know, look at Colonel Sanders. Like when he dies, I can do anything I want with his brand. Yeah. But if Ben and Jerry's are still alive, Ben and Jerry takes exception to what I do. Yeah. And with social media and they're following, they can create a lot of problems for my brand. So they've got to find a way to navigate and keep the original founders while they're alive.

Yeah. Somewhat happy, somewhat endorsing what they're doing. And if not, they're going to lose their consumer base. And guess what? It's just another ice cream. Not as good as Chapman's ice cream, which I wish I owned and I don't, but a great ice cream. Chapman's is a great ice cream. Carth, Carthal Lakes is a great one too.

I love that. But that's a great brand and it stands for the beauty of the North. Chapman's is a value business, really standing for Canada now, doing a great job finding their point of view. But Ben and Jerry's who's like, you know, it was always something you're going to laugh at when you went in there. There's always something clever about their packaging. Well, even Marvel got into, did a joke in one of their movies where there was a Hulk-themed Ben and Jerry's called the Hulkah Hulk a Hulka Burn and Fudge. Yeah.

That's too funny. Yeah, and I'm sure that they would have launched that brand within a week or two. And that's what entrepreneurs do. They see an opportunity to move on it. So, yeah, it's really hard because we all, marketers especially get bored with their brand and their positioning and their campaign much faster than the consumer does because they see it every day. And the lesson I always give people is if it's something is working, consumers are embracing it.

You know, keep it within the boundaries. You can play with it. but don't step outside of it. And that's what happens when you do. Everything is good for. Are they, when they do that, are they operating under a sense of fear that there's somebody coming up behind them

with something new? And therefore, even though what they're doing is working, it's not working as well as they think the other guys is working and therefore they do have to change everything? Great question. So if a competitor, especially nowadays, AI-driven disruptors coming along and found a better mousetrap, their message might make them look old and stodgy

where these people look relevant because that mousetrap is something the consumer wants. You know, everything comes with an arm's reach of desire. So then they've got to change. But the problem with a lot of marketers is they change because the marketing department changes. New VP comes in, new marketing director. They throw the baby out with the bathwater. They get rid of the agency.

They want to do everything new because they want their staff. If they take an existing campaign and make it better, oh, that's Steve's campaign that you made better. But if they come in and create their own campaign, wow, Ben, that's great advertising. And the problem being as a consumer gets confused because they're moving its that with the brand and then the brand veers off it and the consumer goes, I'm not really willing to go there because I got infinite amount of choice and I spent enough time doing it. I'm finding myself increasingly brand agnostic. I'm more, I don't know what it is, with

the exception of certain things. Like, I'm still going to buy the same ketchup and mustard that I always do, but I'm, I think it's because I'm trying to pinch my pennies, but I'm, I'm more open to trying anyone's version of what I'm looking for. Well, brand's constantly putting themselves on sale has created this culture of deal-making, and then we've lost our sense of loyalty to brands. And so prices of ultimate tiebreaker. So you're right. You've got a handful, you name two of them.

Your shampoo, if you're a woman, will probably be very loyalty, your shampoo, face cream, maybe. But more than anything else, you're going to a store and go, what's on sale? Even things like potato chips, which lays used to be,

had to be lays. Now you're seeing all these, you know, boutique shops showing up and they're like, you know, I'm willing to give that a try. Tony Chapman, as always, I love talking to you, man. Pleasure.

All right. See you next week.