The Ben Mulroney Show - A CBC apology / World Cup ad wars

Episode Date: June 15, 2026

 Guest: Tony Chapman, Host of the award winning podcast Chatter that Matters, Founding Partner of Chatter AI If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://link.chtbl.com/bms⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Also, on youtube -- ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@BenMulroneyShow⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Insta: ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠ Twitter: ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠ TikTok: ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠ Executive Producer:  Mike Drolet Reach out to Mike with story ideas or tips at [e-mail] Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This podcast is brought to you by the National Payroll Institute, the leader for the payroll profession in Canada, setting the standard of professional excellence, delivering critical expertise, and providing resources that over 45,000 payroll professionals rely on. Staples Preferred Business Membership, built for busy business owners, because you've got bigger things to think about.

With Staples Preferred, get free delivery, no minimums. Staples Preferred unlocks up to. 3% back. Plus 10% savings on print and exclusive wireless offers. One less thing on your plate. Actually, a lot less. Visit staples.ca slash preferred. That was easy. I don't know how you feel. I don't have an appetite at any part of the day, in any part of the day to see really graphic videos of tragic things. I don't mind seeing the, listen, when it comes to a movie, if it's not real, sure, I'll watch. it. But, and sometimes I'll force myself if the news demands it. But I saw a video of this story that's gone everywhere of the Brazil bungee jumper.

And I saw the video from the perspective of someone who was on the bridge where they tossed this woman off the bridge without actually connecting the rope and she plunged to her death. I saw it from the perspective of her being thrown off Superman style. I did not see the other one. I learned, yes, the story is simple. We've either all done it or we know somebody who's done it. Somebody goes to a bridge and they get tied on with the bungee and they're told, oh, everything's safe, everything's safe.

And you jump and you have fun and you either want to do it again or you never want to do it again. It's something that's very common. What's uncommon is for the owners of it to not tie up the rope and the other end. And so this woman fell to her death. They threw up. Essentially these guys just threw a woman off a bridge. and I did not watch the video from the other angle and I'm glad I didn't.

And it's sad. It's not funny to me. Some people are making jokes and that's fine. You can make jokes if you want. To me it's a tragedy. And I'm glad that the men who were in charge of this got perp walked into the police station because yeah, if you're not going to take your job seriously,

then stuff. When you have people's lives in your hand. Literally they had this woman's life in their hands and he threw her away. So there you go. You'd think that would be your number one thing if bungee jumping. That's probably the

number one. Yeah. And this, listen. If you're going to, anybody in that country who now owns a bungee company, they are going to double up on security. And I'm sorry that this happened. Had to happen to this woman for this to happen. But I think that industry is about to get

a lot safer. But I want it. It's like jumping out of a plane. without a parachute. Yeah, I wanted to talk about, well, last week, last week, the city of Ottawa declared June 11th, Robert Fife Day, in honor of the CTV News and Globe and Mail veteran journalists, unparalleled contribution to Canadian political journalism. And I would be lying if I said I agreed with everything Robert Fife has ever done and said or reported on, but his dedication to his profession and to the pursuit of truth, unimpeded. He was consistent. And for that, he earned the trust of a great many Canadians. And another thing I appreciated about Bob Fife is wherever I found him, whether he be speaking on television or on social media or in print, wherever it was on the radio, it didn't matter. I was getting Bob Fife, the journalist.

And he was consistent on all these platforms because his name is the same on all the platforms. And words mean the same thing on every platform. But probably the most important thing is that he was a journalist on every platform because lies need to be pushed back against on every platform, which means a journalist needs to be a journalist on every platform. Sadly, Robert Fife and the larger journalistic community are not one and the same. And if they were the same, then the statistics I'm about to mention would not read as follows. according to the latest stats can information.

The overall trust in news media sits at a booming 38 to 40%. Traditional media fares far worse between 25 and 28% of the population reporting high levels of trust. 61% of Canadians expressed high levels of concern about misinformation online. Now, on the record, and for the record, I have to say this because we live in a world that if you don't caveat everything, then people will just make stuff up about you. There are an incredible amount of amazing journalists in this country who stand on the watchtower, pushing back against the darkness of the lies of the misinformation

that cloud our judgment, corrupt our dialogue, and crowd out truth and decency. But their job is made harder by a particular type of journalist with whom I had the displeasure of interacting over the weekend. So here's what happened. The Elon Musk debate was going on. He becomes a trillionaire and some say, oh, that's the worst thing in the world. And others say, well, hold on, maybe not.

And my brother was involved and I was watching that go back and forth. I stuck my nose in a little bit, but by and large, it was my brother doing it. And then somebody responded to what my brother wrote. And this was the quote from his tweet, there are no good Mulroonies. A couple of things. I'm not going to say this guy's name. because I don't want this to be about him. Again, it's not about him.

And I don't want to be accused of bullying. And you can go find it on my Twitter. But also, if I said his name, you would have no idea who he was. And I looked at who he was and right there in his Twitter bio, journalist. So I replied, you're a journalist. He essentially said, he said, there are no good Mulrooney's. Cite your sources. To which he, in a very lazy way, reposted a book that was written about my dad.

Now, never mind the book, I think is trash, and the person who wrote it trash. But never mind that. I said to him, your contention, something you put out into the world, is that there are no good Mulroonies. There are lots of us. So get to work, son. And then I want to end it quickly. And so what I did is I deliberately put something on. I said, you know what?

My daughter just celebrated her 13th birthday. make the case that she's not good. And I was hoping, hoping that he would appeal to his better angels, that he would realize that he had painted himself into a corner. As a journalist, if you say something like that, and you cannot be rigorous about your research. If you're just putting it out there, just take the L, man. Just move on.

But that's not what he did. Instead, he wrote to make the case that my daughter is not good. He said, well, for starters, she's your daughter. And look, of course, there were certain terrible people online. You say, shame on you for using your daughter as a human shield. You know what? Back off. My daughter's not on Twitter.

She's better than Twitter. She's never going to be on Twitter. So cool your jets. And so that was when I created a theory to explain all this stuff. It's the theory of the multiple hats. And it deals with how one is defined professionally if one puts on multiple hats. And in professions that rely heavily on trust, the rule is simple. You will be defined by the hat that causes the most harm.

A police officer who beats up a suspect won't be a cop for much longer. A lawyer who borrows funds from his client will not be a lawyer for long. A teacher who crosses a boundary and gets too close to a student, even if that behavior does not reach the law. Well, it's probably not going to be a long time before they're told you don't get to teach anymore. and a journalist who leaves their post atop the watchtower clocks out from their duty to protect us against the hordes and the mobs who peddle in misinformation, takes off that hat and puts on another one,

gets down from the watchtower, and joins that very mob of muckrakers, gleefully putting out casual hatred, tinged with misinformation like there are no good Mulroonies. And, well, for starters, she's your daughter. You cease to be a journalist. You cease to be a noble journalist like Bob Fife. In fact, you cease to be a journalist altogether.

You are wearing the hat that causes the most harm. You've joined the very people that your profession is a buttress against. You are a fireman who in your spare time is an arsonist, which means you are an arsonist. You are a troll, and you represent one of the many reasons why trust in journalism has fallen in this country. The good news is this is in the power of these very people to change. I start with Bob Fife.

I'll finish with. Be Bob Fife. Be Bob Fife. Recognize that when people come to find you, when you go to them, you're going to them. You're finding them. They don't care if it's online or in print. They don't care. Be the same person in all those places.

I don't know why you listen, you may not like me, but I'm consistent on every platform. I'm the same guy. You don't get to be a peddler of truth on one and a peddler of misinformation on the other and expect that we are going to buy it. If you don't take your job seriously, how the heck are we supposed to take you seriously?

We're going to take a break, and when we come back, we've got lots to get to, including how a movie from about 20 years ago caused some problems for one of the most storied hockey announcers in this country. Don't go anywhere.

This is the Ben Mulroney show. Rises knows a thing or two about great combinations. Chocolate and peanut butter, obviously, but there's more than one way to Rises. From indulgent Riesas Big Cups with caramel to crunchy Rieces pieces and Rieces miniatures, there's a delicious Rises for every mood. It's the same combo you love,

just with more ways to enjoy it. So, whether you're snacking, sharing, or just treating yourself, nothing else is Rieces. Well, it was a weekend of lots of sports all over the place. I'll share the story later about the incredible experience I had at the Blue J game. My friend gave me tickets and it was just the most top shelf experience I think I've ever had at a professional sporting event. But we could talk about that later.

Let's talk, though, first of game six of the Stanley Cup finals, where storied broadcaster Ron McLean got himself in. into some hot water. And, I mean, listen, well, let's play it first. So let's play the, should we do this first? Let's play it. Give some context as to what we're seeing. So there's a skit of a hangover-style skit.

You might not remember the hangover, but the hangover was from, what, 20 years ago, a movie from about 20 years ago was Zach Galefinakis. That was a movie that really made him a star. Yeah, huge. And it was about bad decisions made in Las Vegas. And he pulled from his bag of knowledge, a quote from the film that wasn't necessarily, was tangentially linked in the fact that it was a hangover quote.

And in the video, which you can't, which is hard to make out, but you have one of the CBC hosts, and then the Stanley Cup. Yeah. And the keeper of the Stanley Cup. Yeah. Who is, looks, he's acting passed out on the couch. Yeah. Okay.

Exactly. And they're saying that you're going to need the cup tonight. And so with that context, like we are, we are in the end game of the Stanley Cup final. You've got the cup on screen. This is what Ron McLean said. Listen, hey, we've got to go. We may need you here tonight. So, Ron, I'm going to go get our friends some water.

So good, Kyle. The roofies. They'll get you every time. So what he demonstrated there is a depth of knowledge of that film, right? Like he, Because in the way, it's like, that's the whole premise

is that they get roofied. Yeah, it's, and it's a deep cut. And like, if you, if you're a film fan, you're probably going to get it.

And you might chuckle. But let's be honest, the audience is a hockey, uh, loving audience. I don't know how many of them know that movie. Uh, I know Ron McLean does because he knows lots of stuff.

And immediately this triggered a lot of people. This triggered a lot of people. to the point that he actually had to issue an apology during the broadcast of the Stanley Cup final. And it was, it actually overshadowed this moment. And he had to apologize and explain what we've just tried to explain to you. And look, he's such a, he's such a pro. He was able to do it very, very well.

But apparently people are still calling for, still calling for more. And it's that, it's that, that, that's the problem, right? I've made mistakes on air. I've corrected myself mid-sentence because I realized, oh my God, if I don't correct it now, I'm going to get in trouble. There was a moment where my brain was working really fast

and my mouth was trying to keep up and I said something that I actually didn't mean. And I had to stop myself and stop. And when the next segment started, I had to correct it a second time because I know how sensitive some people can be. I can sit here and complain about how sensitive people are. That won't make them.

less sensitive. So I had to adapt. I had to take the world as it is. And he did as well. I will say this. It's not lost on me. And I know my audience. Someone will say, well, Ben, the irony is rich. Because when Ron's former partner, Don Cherry, needed him for something he said, Ron was nowhere to be found. I know a thing or two about that as well. I know what it feels like to be abandoned by your colleagues and and I know that hurts. And let's be honest, Don Cherry, what he said in the context of 2026, it's, he can, he could probably give you a little, I told you so. But that stuff happens.

And I don't, I don't put, I don't put that moment on Ron here. I think Ron McLean did the right thing here and apologized. And if it took over the narrative, that's on the audience. That's on social media. But again, I discount. I discount every headline that begins with the internet is upset about the internet's not upset about everything.

The internet is upset about everything. Everything pisses the internet off. That's not news. That's not news. That's like man fell asleep in the sun and got a third degree burn. Yeah, that's what's supposed to happen. That's not news.

I wouldn't print that. And so it is what it is. You apologize. You're going to get, I remember the time that I got in trouble, I got criticized for my apology. For the apology of the apology? Yeah, I didn't apologize the right way. That was my favorite.

That was great. But yeah, but that's the world we live in. That's painful. So, like my recommendation to run, and he doesn't need me to recommend anything to him is, like, just do what allows you to sleep at night. And if you know you did wrong, apologize in a way that makes sense to your soul and your own internal compass. And I don't think, I personally don't think that that was worthy of an apology.

It was more of, if you're offended by that, well, then you really need to learn more about the hangover movies. You have to know about the context. Yeah. And also, if you are offended, then, you know, I'm sorry you're, I'm sorry that you were offended. But just because you were offended does not make you right. Yeah, I agree. However, we're living in a, like, listen, Ruffy.

The fact is, they chose to reference the hangover as, uh, as, uh, as, uh, I agree. as part of their broadcast. It went Vegas, right? So it makes sense. Ron demonstrated a knowledge of that film to the extent that he was able to pull out a quote that I wouldn't even have remembered unless he said it, right? Yeah.

And so, but Ron also does tilt left. And so for him, I'm sure this apology made sense for him. He also knows what's at stake. If you don't watch it, if you don't watch yourself, you may not be the doing this next year. Gord, you want to jump in? Oh, I just want to hear what now he has to say. Now you've set the table.

Now I want to hear this juicy apology. Okay, let's hear it. Listen, we, I want to address something that I said earlier on the broadcast. It was a bad mistake by me. We had a fun spoof on the movie The Hangover. And I referenced a scene in the movie where the tiger is put to sleep. Mike Tyson's tiger. The Keepers of the Cup of course are asleep.

in the skit and I was making this. I used the term, the slang term for the drug, which has far more serious connotations in reality. And I should have made that connection. I did not, as James Baldwin would say, it's the innocence that constitutes the crime. So I know I triggered some people. I know I offended some people with that remark. And I feel very badly for that. And I want to thank you for bringing it to my attention to our attention. Very sorry. Yeah. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. But I like... I know I offended some people. You're going to offend somebody. with everything. You could say, I like Coca-Cola. Oh, no, what are you talking about?

Wait, so I like oranges. So you hate apples? You hate apple growers. You hate apple orchards. What's wrong with apples? And on and on. But that's, okay. Anyway, but I would think the world would move on, but some people are only comfortable when they're offended. I'm saddened by the fact that we are at that point where you have to apologize for something like this. You did not say anything with the intent of offending people. No, no. Absolutely not. I agree.

I agree. But don't you know, we're living in a world where it's not, your intent doesn't matter anymore. Your intent doesn't matter. It's all about, it's all about how something is received. Well, talking about how things are received, if we could quickly go to this next story. So FIFA has a discrimination monitor.

Okay. And they are urging that the removal from their job of an Australian official named Sean Evans. And he's a video guy. He's a video. editor. And he's standing in the picture and he apparently is like, I'm not going to do the symbol. He's flashing an upside down okay hand gesture, which is, I don't see that as a naturally occurring thing. But apparently it is now the Anti-Defamation League flagged it as sometimes being used

to signal white supremacy and racism. Because it shows like a W with the fingers and a P. Yeah. So with white powers. Now, you told me you did some research. There's nothing in this guy. passed to suggest any ties to right wing things, right? In fact, he appears to be completely apolitical. Right. So like, again, don't, don't ascribe evil motivation when, when ignorance will probably just do. Like, sometimes he may have done it on purpose. Who knows? He may have done, but this quick reaction to say, he must be a racist. Maybe interview the guy. Maybe find out, maybe talk to people. You've got a discrimination monitor. Use your, I don't know what your budget is.

figure this out before you, before you tar him as a neo-Nazi forever, maybe check. Like, unless, because if you can point evidence that he would do this on purpose. And if he did, then send him, then send him to the depths of hell. But until you can prove it, don't attack him online just because he did something that could have an innocent explanation to it. All right, we're going to take a break. We come back. Our good friend, Tony Chapman is here.

If you're watching a TV commercial, do you want to know if the actor is alive or dead or real or AI. Well, in certain jurisdictions, that's the law now. I always love it when this guest comes to sit and join and chat, especially in person, because I don't know, I feel that we have better. I think chats are, by definition, better in person. I agree.

I mean, this Zoom screen. By the way, Tony Chapman, I should say Tony Chap. Yeah, I know, I think the Zoom screen, even when I'm interviewing my podcast, had you live, you feel the energy, the energy in the crowd, I'm not at Enching the room, so I agree. Yeah, it is. And we have these great conversations every week with Jen, Jenwell, with Jenwell.

And Pete Bombachi from Genwell. And he said it started this organization about highlighting the benefits of human connection. Pete's been on chat of the matters. He's a good friend of mine for years back. And I love his mission. And he endeavors to come in and do this in person. And let's see, he's a great chat. It's a great chat with him regardless.

All right. Let's talk about this. Let's talk about this law that was passed in New York State, which essentially makes it a requisite for advertisers to explicitly disclose when an AI performer is using a commercial instead of a human actor. Is this a solution in search of a problem? Because I get it. Like, people's more information is better always. What problem are they solving here? They aren't solving a problem. And it's beyond ridiculous because so, much content is being created by AI. And it went from, oh my God, that person's got three arms to they're producing, you know, movies at home that are outdoing Disney films in the box office

on YouTube. And it's, AI's here. It's not going away. And to state whether it's made with AI or not isn't going to matter to the viewer. Here's the thing. The viewer doesn't care. It's called a say-do. I don't know if you've ever heard of this, but in marketing the say-do, have a focus group. Are you environmentalist? Everybody puts up their hand. Hey, I say I'm an environmentalist. How do you do? Well, I go into the stores. Do you actually buy goods?

Will you really pay a few pennies more? No. And that's the same thing here. Oh, yes, of course, I'm going to support only content made by humans. What are you going to do? You're going to watch the content that's best for you. Well, I was listening to a podcast over the weekend, and they were talking about the conservative party of Canada's ability to turn around a commercial,

critiquing the liberal government on this technical recession, not a technical recession sort of thing. And they heavily employed AI to get it done where a couple is at a bank and they lose their house and they say, oh, we're homeless. And the husband says, no, we're just technically homeless. And they both laugh. Oh, thank God. We're just technically homeless.

And they did that for a few things. And they would not be able to do that with the speed with which they did if they weren't able to use AI. Now, I know there's Canada and that's New York, but what happens there could absolutely happen here. Yeah, so you take the two arguments. People say, well, there's people out of work because I didn't use them. I totally support that. The reality is technologies come. If I can take a car and get faster than a horse, am I going to take a car?

These horses are going to be out of work. And so that's the reality of what we're dealing with is the world's moving on. So I think the conservatives are using AI how they should be is the first mover advantage. Okay, what is – so we've been talking about YouTube having its moment, right, with these movies that started as embryonic. displays of genius on YouTube and then all of a sudden they get a platform in traditional media

and they are rewriting what success looks like at the box office at a time where it's really hard to get people to go to the movies and now there's a two companies CAA and this private equity firm a CAA is one of the biggest talent agencies in the world. They've started a $250 million

holding company to acquire businesses led by YouTubers and other creators. For a lot of people that's a word salad. So what does that actually mean? Well, when you take people, let's, Mr. Beast, a lot of people have heard of. I mean, this guy was, you know, we've talked about in the past, a bit of a jackass. Jimmy Donaldson.

Yeah. And now he is one of the wealthiest guys out there. And he's built it because the biggest philanthropist as well. Yeah. He built the 450 million followers. 450 million followers. I mean, that's CBS and NBC at their prime times 10. Yeah.

I mean, it's huge. I mean, the top show in the past, 60 million, Archie Bunker. He's got 450 million followers. So he now has the ability to not. only, you know, get paid to, to promote the diner, he can own the diner. He just bought a bank. Yeah. You know, I mean, so this is the reality.

So what these companies are coming in saying these creators are major forces of not only innovation, but amplification. And that's always was a disconnect. I had a big idea, but nobody heard about it. So what are they going to do with it? So they're going to buy all these businesses and do what with them? They're going to buy these people, but the problem is they're not for sale. I mean, even if they buy them, how long are they going to stick around when CAA says,

we just want you, you're hip, you're cool. Next thing you know, they got an accountant in their office. And then they got the HR department. And then they're starting to say, you can't say that. You can't do that? But these guys, can these guys take the money, work for the man? And then when their time is up on their contract and they don't have to work there anymore because they bought the business, not necessarily the person, can't they go start something else?

Absolutely. They could just walk across the street. I mean, they'll have non-competes and everything else. But the thing is, if they're successful, they don't need that money. Yeah. What they need is they need to continue to be fresh and original. That's the issue. Greater economy is moving really quickly because what somebody was watching yesterday is very different than tomorrow.

Yeah, and they can tell, they can get second by second metrics to know what parts, what milliseconds people are tuning out for. Like when do they click out? When do they get bored? And they can tailor things later. And they can do it by theme. They can say, okay, every time I do a story or every time I do some sort of thing that, involves the difference between men and women. People love it.

But when I do, the difference between black people and white, but nobody watches. Right? So they know what works for their audience. But even goes more micro, they know what headlines work. They know what images look. They fly fish out a thousand baits and they see which ones are working it. Again, AI says, okay, let's put the chips on our table that way. This herd's running.

Let's run with it. This herd's not, let's not. And market in the old days was, I don't know what part of my advertising is working. Half is, but which part? So these guys are able to get, granular in terms of what their people want and adapt and give them the, you know, the iteration that comes next is based on that information. Whereas like I watch these reactions from Hollywood when when these two movies, obsession

and the backrooms, both YouTube creators turn directors. Yeah. Do, does gangbusters and beats Disney at the box office. Their reaction is we need, we need to find our own version of that. Let's go, let's go out there and we're just going to throw a whole bunch of money to a whole bunch of creators and see what happens. that to me is the wrong lesson. But isn't that just somehow the way the old guard tries to buy the new guard? The difference is now is that the new guard doesn't need them.

In the past, we needed that scale, we needed that capital, we needed that amplification. The one thing you're missing in this whole thing, too, is not only do they know what works and not, they knows what's shared. And when they start seeing sharing, it's like putting a pebble in an ocean, and next thing you know, the tsunami hitting Japan. But see, this is what I was saying to my, I learned from my daughter. I went to see the back rooms, but I didn't know anything about it. And I said, why are all these people, these kids who never go to the movies? Why are you all here? Why are you paying for something that you get for free on your phone?

And she said, because during the pandemic, this became a thing on YouTube. And we had nothing else to do. And we all became obsessed with it. Obsessed with backrooms. And whatever they built in that world online, we were consuming it. And so when this came out, we all had to be here. Yeah. And that's part of this whole community, which is, again, Disney things.

that Star Wars is the community, what the fresh new generation says, no, we create a community and we feed it. Yeah. And that's the difference. Yeah. No, it's very interesting, but that there are such differences between those two hits at the box office. You got one that I just described, and the other was, he's this savant comedian guy who was given a crack at making a sort of obsession, which is a dark tale of obsession. But they're both completely different markets. and they're feeding their own fans. And so this idea, well, they're both YouTubers. So let's just go find more YouTubers.

Well, see, this is exactly what you're saying. They have insight into their fans. You understand how their hands, head of heart and hands. So they think and they feel in the act. Disney goes, I buy Star Wars. I'm going to stretch it, milk it. I'm going to milk this thing to 30 films because everybody loves Star Wars. These guys are saying, I know what the Zytis is right now,

and I'm going to feed it. I'm going to feed it right now because those guppies are just biting for that fly, and I'm going to throw it out right where it's happening. It really, like the Star Wars thing, it's not even too much of a good thing. They had a good thing, turned it into something less than a good thing, and then gave us too much of that. Yeah. And that is sad for me because I have zero appetite for Star Wars right now.

Yeah, I mean, it's, well, it's again, you can't take something that was scarcity and turn it into abundance. All right, we're going to come back more of our conversation with Tony Chapman. We're going to move into the world of sports because the World Cup ad war has begun. And I want to know if there are some early winners. Don't go anywhere. This is The Ben Maloney Show. Well, we knew it was coming. We knew that there would be an ad blitz during this World Cup.

We knew that a lot of people's eyeballs would be focused on their television or their streaming app or their phone, wherever, whatever screen they've got. And that means a raft of new ads. So before I judge any, let's talk to the guy who knows a thing or two about a thing or two. Welcome back to the show, my friend. Oh, he's a pleasure. You know, I think that the World Cup, first of all, cost you. if you're a number, tier one sponsor, he's going to spend about 150 million on rights for four years, big dollars.

You're going to activation, say, in that 3X, and then the 450, $600 million, you've got to get it right. Yeah. The problem is people think, just because I own the rights, therefore I'm going to be popular. Nothing can be further from the truth. You're going to slide into something like the World Cup or even the Super Bowl. You've got to let the game be the hero.

You've got to let the fans be the hero. And you've got to be someone that's just kind of sliding your way and saying, I get both. I get the fandom and I get the game. The one I love the most is a U.S. ad is AT&T where the guy comes knocking next door because he wants to watch the game. It's about social connections.

It's about bringing people together. You talked about having Jen Well in the studio. I mean, that's what it's all about. Coca-Cola bringing the trophy around the world. You know, getting people a chance to touch the trophy. What about the one? There was one I saw before the World Cup even started. It was with Steve Karell and some hockey,

some soccer stars, I think. Beckham. Yeah. Messier. Yeah. And they say if you, if you go to, they stopped to the supermarket, if the people coming out had a bag of chips for whatever they were. Lays chips.

Lays chips. Then they would all go back to one of their houses and watch the World Cup. I thought that was kind of good. That's a fantastic. I mean, that's the kind of the crash to Super Bowl where Doritos is making the thing accessible. Yeah. They use celebrities really well. I remember Lays with Mark Messier, right?

Yeah. And I had the promotion. Mark Messier would come over to your house. Yeah. With a Stanley Cup and watch a game. Yeah. I don't know where they got the idea, but I want to take full credit for their idea. But, I mean, this is where you have to be relevant to what's happening.

You don't try to own it. Don't try to steal it. Just try to be subtle enough, but have people still remember. Here's the trick. 30 seconds. I'm trying to say I'm a World Cup sponsor. I got some celebrities that are going to create a lot of attention. And I still have to have my brand remembered.

But let's talk about that, the brand remembering thing. Because a couple of weeks ago, there was a little bit of an issue where we all found out that people weren't allowed to bring their refillable water bottles to the stadium anywhere. Like the New York had the problem, Vancouver had the problem, we had the problem. And they said that it's because we have a water sponsor. And that's Coca-Cola with Desani. And how much, I mean, knowing what you know, if I could ask you to just give me what you suspect happened, like that could have been a really big brand disaster for Coke.

Yeah. Thankfully, the politicians took most of the heat on that because they're getting in and whining it. you know, it's what they turned, they should have turned it into is saying, we don't want anything that can be thrown and hurt a player. Plastic bottle we're willing to accept, but we're not really to accept it. But to deny people water into a game

where you're spending $3,000 a ticket is just, you're just not culturally aware. That's where you're following the rules. We talked about it last week, you know, when they gave away the tickets and they tried to get their money back, following the road, but I'm going to give you two ideas I would have done if I ran the World Cup.

One, I would have put four seats in the top of the CN Tower. Tallest seats in the world. Okay, because day, one, we had the World Cup, everybody's talking Toronto. Are they talking to Toronto again? No. So how are you going to get her money back? Oh, my God. Toronto's got the tallest seats in the world. How cool. Second idea. Put a big screen on the lake, invite every boat to watch it. And guess what? We're going to have pictures of our beautiful waterfront all over the world.

We don't as a city and as a country leverage opportunities. We spend all this money in the game. Then we spend all the rest of the time whining about the money. Why aren't we the fact that the world's attention is on the World Cup? Toronto's the coolest city in the world. even if we didn't get the biggest games, they do the coolest stuff. Well, we know that Fan Fest closed here in Toronto when it was too hot, and then it closed during the rain. I mean, it's like, you know, it's like we're just such a woke nation.

Like, we just don't understand fandom. Fandum doesn't care about the rain. No, they want to be wet. They want to be hot. I agree, I agree. Have you ever gone to a CFL game out in the West? They're 30 below zero in their bearer, and they got the Saskatchewan Lomba. The Saskatchewan Roughruder fans.

Okay, let's talk about breaking undary states. stereotypes. I mean, I think I'm mellowing a little bit of my old age on certain topics. And one of them is, listen, if you want to be a vegan, you want to be a vegetarian, you go right ahead. And to be fair, there does seem to be coming together of the streams in terms of like the vegetarian, the vegan options, they're recognizing that if they want more people to come on board, they have to have their food look like the stuff that people like. It probably tastes like the stuff people like. Yeah, first of all, the greatest hairball ever coughed up by any industry's milk, allowing the word milk on

Oat milk and almond bowl. Oh, I know. How stupid is that? I mean, champagne's protected champagne. Yeah. Why would we allow? I don't remember a nipple on an almond. So it just doesn't exist.

What's the line from, meet the parents? He's like when he says that he milked the cat, he's like, I have nipples, Greg. Can you milk me? And so what's happened is that the vegan guys are realizing this, the stereotype is when you buy this stuff, you're always compromising taste. And the non-vegans are going, that stuff tastes like cardboard. What's wrong with you? So it's this great social discrequent.

bars between people are still eating real cheese and the vegan. These guys have come out and they think their product tastes great. Download a fact that you bought real cheese. I'll give you the equivalent in our cheese and see what. Basically, they're putting their money where their mouth is and taste. I was part of the PepsiCoal challenge for years in its heyday. Taste matters. If you can sample a product and people go, wow, it will impact your ability to purchase

it. And are we getting past, I don't mind living in a world. I don't want to share in a world with all sorts of people. You want to be vegan, be vegan. You want, if the food's good, I'll go have it. But I want to live in a world where my choices of what I eat are not political. Yeah, don't preach to me. Don't like, listen, don't tell me how bad dairy is for me.

Just have the fact that I like real milk in my latte. I don't care what you drink. I don't, you know, I don't talk about almond milk and wonder what you're thinking. And there was a push. I mean, there was it for a while. The darling stock out there was all those fake beyond burgers. Beyond burgers. What happened there?

I called that one, man. The guy presented at the restaurant, Canada. They had the hottest growing stock. I said, first of all, it's just, it's a patty made up of red, you know, peppers and turnip or whatever. Anybody can make it. At the beginning, they were like the Intel chip. A&W, Beyond Burger. Yeah.

McDonald's Beyond Burger. Six months later, we have vegetarian burgers. That's what happened. There's no value to their brand. But there wasn't value in, in. And the ingredients in it. The ingredients weren't good? Terrible.

You read the Grades of Beyond Burger and saying all these chemicals to make it taste like you want a burger, have a burger. If you're not a, you don't like burgers. Don't try to replicate a burger. And so what's the next one of these that's going to fail? You know, I think this whole move to calorie counting, portion control, clean labels. I think people are choosing to eat. There's people that are choosing to eat because food is like medicine to them.

And there's people that choose to eat because there is indulgence. And I think to trying to be one-size-fits-all is going to fail. So ultimately, that's the case. Well, Stephen Bartlett, the host of Diary of CEO, he became. the poster child for everything that's wrong with like the health optimization movement. Because he confessed that he had two glasses of wine and it ruined the next three days of his life. And then I saw somebody who analyzed that and said, the irony is, what he's saying is you have to live like a sick person in order to enjoy the benefits of being the most healthy person. Yeah.

It's crazy. Yeah. And another guy went into this whole exploration and it was really quite brilliant because I learned a lot from me. I think there's some Greek philosopher who says like there, there is such a thing as being too virtuous. And for example, courage, there's such thing as having too much courage. That's called recklessness. There's some things that have not enough courage.

That's called cowardice. And so what you want is you want to be in the middle of the virtue spectrum. And these guys are so far gone on optimization, that they're depriving themselves of the joy that comes from the things that they think are technically bad. I'm just guys that are taking 200 supplements a day, putting infrared on their heads. They're doing everything they possibly can to extend their life, their health span and a lifespan. And I wonder, but what about the best time of your life right now?

You're so obsessed with this stuff. Is that worth trading your 50s or your 60s to suddenly at 80 years old, maybe finding another two years? Because you're absolutely almost obnoxious to it. And another thing is, the great lies, 10,000 steps a day. There's no scientific evidence to that. Cold plunging more than 40 seconds. Only good for men, not for women. No scientific evidence, but we get it, and it becomes a meme in society,

and then the people that do it want to spend the rest of their life showing their Instagram post of how they are. It's a marketing thing. It's a marketing thing. Like, did you ever look at any of this stuff? I mean, terrible part of it, but genius. Fitness, Fitbit! I mean, everybody started walking around. How many steps do you do today?

That became part of her vernacular. See, I stopped wearing that thing because I felt I was working for it. Yeah. And now I have it in me, like, I'm trying to get as many steps as possible, but I don't really keep it. You don't count them. You don't need to count them. Anyway, thanks so much for coming in. I love these chats that kind of go all over the place.

And I enjoy the World Cup, my friend. You too. Since the dawn of time, humanity has been at war. It has shaped the world around us. And if it somehow feels like we've been here before, it's because we have. I'm David Boris. I'm a military historian. And on my new podcast, Hostile History, I take us inside history's most defining wars and rebellions.

From Genghis Khan to the war in Iran, find out how the past can explain the present. Search for and follow hostile history on Spotify. Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or wherever you find your favorite podcasts.