The Ben Mulroney Show - A Court ordered apology ignored/ Political panel question the military industrial complex

Episode Date: December 5, 2025

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This podcast is brought to you by the National Payroll Institute, the leader for the payroll profession in Canada, setting the standard of professional excellence, delivering critical expertise, and providing resources that over 45,000 payroll professionals rely on. Well, hey there, everybody, happy Friday. Thank you so much for spending a little bit of time with the Ben Mulroney show on this 5th of December, 2025. Let's spend a little time in Calgary, shall we? So in 2023 at the Saddle Town Calgary Public Library, there was an incident. The incident occurred during what was called Reading with Royalty. It was a drag story time event.

and a gentleman by the name of Derek Rimer was, he's a Calgary pastor, he was arrested at this event because as a pastor, he took issue with drag time with kids, reading kids' stories, or people, I'm sorry, drag performers reading children's stories to children. And so he showed up and got things got. a little heated. I think he was physically, physically thrown out of the event, like physically thrown out. And so he went to court. And as part of his punishment, he was given house arrest. But also he was asked to write and submit an apology letter to librarian Shannon Slater. because apparently at this event, he made her, through his words, feel a certain type of way.

And so he endured his house arrest, but he refused to write the letter of apology that was mandated by the court. And so when he did not submit the apology by the deadline, he was taken back into custody. And look, I, of all the things that make me want to pull my hair out, drag time, story time is not very high on that list. It's, to me, it doesn't ping on my radar as something that upsets me. It upsets some of you, and that's okay. And for some of you, you have no problem with it, and that's okay, too. I kind of fall right in the middle where I just don't care. It just doesn't bug me if I, you know, if you don't want your kids to see drag performers in a library, don't bring them to the library on that day.

That's how I feel about that. And given some of the other stuff we talk about on this show that really does bug me, this one doesn't. But it did bug this pastor. And I personally think the way he handled it was wrong, but he got house arrest. and that should be enough. The fact that he was arrested again because he doesn't think he did anything wrong. His religious beliefs are his religious beliefs.

And so I don't know why we're going through this rigmarole of asking him to write an apology that you know he doesn't believe. and if he didn't, he goes back to jail. Like, to me, this is double jeopardy. Like, he shouldn't be back in jail for the same, for the same infraction. And that's what it feels like to me. And this idea that you're going to police people's thoughts, like police's actions, his actions were wrong.

He ran a foul of the law and he was punished and that punishment was served. but you can't you can't punish his thoughts he is a religious man who believes that this is a bridge too far for him he did something wrong and he paid the price but you're not going to change his mind on how he thinks here you can change his mind on how he behaves and which is what you did but you're not you can't and you can't be the court shouldn't be i don't think going after his thoughts and trying to get him to write something that the court knows he fundamentally disagrees with. So look, this to me is a little scary

because we are buttoned up against what is it, Bill C9 that's coming up that is going to make Canada look a lot more like the UK in ways we don't want it to look like the UK where you could get prosecuted for saying the wrong thing or tweeting the wrong thing or posting the wrong thing, or shouting the wrong thing,

depending on who's in power, who decides that what you say is either right or wrong, that is, to me, anathema to living in an open and democratic society. We live in a place where you should expect to be offended. You should expect to have your ideas collide violently. are your ideas, not you're not the person. Your ideas should be colliding violently with other ideas. And may the best argument win.

That's what makes a place like Canada special. That's what makes America special. That's what makes democracy special because we are unafraid to offend each other. We are unafraid to say dangerous things. We are unafraid to take a chance and think something that's just outside the envelope of what's right. You know, that's why stand-up comics

thrive in democracies and not necessarily in autocracies. That's because they are the ones who push that envelope. They're the ones who say that thing that shouldn't be said, but we're glad they said it. And when they say it and we hear it,

we think something new and we see things differently. And this is the magic. This is the special sauce that makes a place like Canada. incredible. And it feels to me like we are extinguishing that with some of this legislation and some of these judicial decisions. I may be overstating it, but that's how I see it from here. Hey, look, yesterday, we were following as closely as we could the drama surrounding

BC conservative leader and leader of the opposition in British Columbia, John Rustad. Because At the time that we did the show, there was a confusion over whether or not he had been removed from his position as leader or whether or not he was going to fight on to save his leadership. And we got a few emails because we do this show at a particular time in Toronto and then it's syndicated around the country. And the last place it airs on any given day is Vancouver. So by the time our show aired in Vancouver, the drama was over. And a lot of people got in touch and said, listen, you guys aren't really reporting the news because you're late. And so we do apologize, but that is sort of the nature of syndication. And it is what it is.

He resigned after we taped our show. And we do thank all of our listeners for emailing us. And I hope that explanation makes a little bit of sense to you. But yes, John Rustad following the back and forth yesterday, did, in fact, resign. And let's listen to the conservative leader in his own words. I am announcing that I'm stepping down as the leader of the Conservative Party of British Columbia.

I will be remaining as an MLA and carrying out the work that needs to be done with regards to representing my writing of the Chaka Lakes. You know, it's been a great honor building this party, taking this thing from where it does and bringing the Conservative Party back to British Columbia, back to life in this province. it's been a great honor for the people who stepped up to run and the people that stepped up to support us at a time when the conservative party was virtually non-existent and people took their chance on me on the conservative party on bringing about the change and hope that British Columbia is wanted to see

so he posted on social media that he resigned to avoid a quote civil war within his party and prevent the party from tearing itself apart this followed months of internal turmoil and a direct challenge to his leadership from a majority of his caucus members. So yesterday, two days ago rather, the day before his resignation, 20 of his 39 conservative MLAs signed a letter declaring they'd lost confidence in the leader and called for his removal. And things got a little interesting because the party's board of directors declared him, quote, professionally incapacitated. However, the constitution of the party doesn't stipulate that you can remove someone for professional

incapacitation, but only incapacitation. That being said, that's all moot because he is now stepped aside. And the hope that I think that he has is they can move past all this turmoil and build on the success of that last election, where they went from a non-factor. to coming within a stone's throw and just a few seats from forming government. Up next, what group of people are being fast-tracked on the asylum front? You're going to want to stick around for this one. Build, play, and display with the 3-1 Megablocks preschool sets.

The building go race car revamps into a pickup truck and hot rock. and the build and enchant unicorn transforms into a puppy and Pegasus. Each easy-to-build set comes with rolling wheels, 26 blocks, and easy-to-read building steps, compatible with other megablocks sets for endless big building fun. Shop 3-1 megablocks at Walmart for ages 3-plus. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show. We want to look at Ottawa right now, and I've said many times that, On a great many serious issues, we as a nation, in the form of our government,

take things, we look at things in a very unsurious way. Stuff that should be very serious is dealt with in an unsurious, haphazard, casual, cavalier way. And today, an example of that is in the form of the Ministry of Immigration. Does the Minister of Immigration have a handle on what she needs to know to do her job? That's the question. So the Liberal Immigration Minister apparently fast-tracked permanent residency for 674 foreign doctors, claiming it would get them working in Canada. However, when pressed on information about this plan,

she was, well, let's just say, she probably knew about as much of it. She knew as much about it as I do. Last year, your department approved permanent residency for 674 immigrant doctors through the Federal Skilled Workers Express Entry Program. How many of those 674 immigrants are now licensed and practicing as doctors in Canada? That would not be information that I have. No, see, that's not information. I have. That's not information that you have because we are not the immigration

minister. But the immigration minister should and must have information like that at the ready. And if you don't, then you're not doing your job. And I'm not saying this to be mean. I'm saying this because it needs to be said. We have so many problems in this country that could be dealt with far better. We have issues that could be mitigated if we only took them more seriously. If we followed the problem to its logical conclusion, we let people into the country and then we don't know where they go. And that's on this front. We also know that with refugees and asylum claimant's temporary foreign workers. They come in. They're supposed to be here temporarily and then they disappear into the sort of the dark economy and we don't know where

they are and even if we could find them we don't know how to get them and we don't know how to compel them to leave right so this is these are problems of our own doing and our own making and they're made worse because we do not take them seriously we do not follow the puck we don't follow the the bouncing ball further to that the minister of immigration says to expect more Sudanese people to arrive in 2026. She says, we're going to have more Sudanese immigrants coming to Canada in 2026. The question is, where are we going to put them? Where are we going to put them in an asylum hotels?

I'm pretty sure we're closing those down. Are they going to live on the streets of Toronto? And why are we expecting more Sudanese? I thought the whole point was we have to put the brakes on how many people are coming into Canada. Now, that being said, the minister did warn foreign nationals not to misuse Canada's asylum system as the U.S. and UK tighten their refugee rules, saying Canada must protect those in genuine need and manage capacity limits in housing and health care. Well, thank goodness she warned foreign nationals not to misuse Canada's asylum system.

Without that warning, I don't know what we would do because I'm sure that all those people who are looking to take advantage of the system will now think twice because, they were given a stern warning by our immigration minister. Please, are you kidding? We talk about this all the time. When the liberals ban firearms across this country, that does nothing to stop illegal firearms, because if you are a criminal and you are going to break the law, you don't care if the law has changed. You don't care if it's now illegal or more illegal today than it was yesterday to buy a hand.

handgun, you're doing something criminal anyway. And warning people who have every intention of breaking the law, it doesn't matter. They're going to break the law. She said her, oh, here's the answer to the Sudanese thing, by the way. She said her department is prioritizing Sudanese applications and that more people will be reunited with their families next year. Quote, they are being processed. People are coming. The numbers you will see quite a bit coming in 2026.

Did I miss something? Did I? I thought we were told the brakes were going to be put on immigration. I thought we were told that fewer people were going to come in. I thought we were told Justin Trudeau mucked it up and Mark Carney was going to fix it. Because something tells me when the total numbers of new Canadians and new two country people are, is given to us, that number is going to be big. It's going to be far bigger than what we anticipated and far bigger than what most of us

would say we were promised. I mean, if we're blowing the lock off for Sudanese people to come to Canada, what about, I mean, there's, how many other countries send people to this country on a yearly basis? The numbers are going to be huge. They will be huge. And then it's not helped. It is not helped by Tim Hortons. and God, may I just say, I love my Tim Hortons.

I had a farmer's rap yesterday. Gosh, I love the Tim Hortons Farmer's Rapp. One of the best breakfast sandwiches around. However, they have been central to the temporary foreign workers issue that the country has had. There's a, you know, there's a, you can't open social media without somebody criticizing the changing face of Tim Hortons, right? where they'll say they're all staffed by temporary foreign workers who are not from here.

I don't have a problem with that. Some of the best employees I've met Tim Hortons come from points abroad. But as we were told that the breaks were going to be put on the temporary foreign workers program, Tim Hortons has been lobbying MPs

for more temporary workers over the past 18 months. So Tim says most of their staff are hired locally but argues temporary foreign workers already in Canada should be allowed to stay longer or gain clearer paths to permanent residency while the government maintains the program is under review and adjusted accordingly to labor market needs. But look, Tim's is a big company. And when I hear that they are lobbying the federal government, they're not doing that with a simple phone call.

They, I'm sure, have hired great and organized and well-funded lobbyists to try to convince the government to give them their way. If Tim Hortons wants more temporary foreign workers or at the very least wants those who are already here to stay longer or gain clear paths to permanent residency, it's not a crazy assumption to think they're going to get what they want. And if every company, we're hearing about Tim's and we're hearing about the Sudanese, it feels like it's a return to the high number of people coming to Canada by a thousand cuts. Oh, it's just a few more Sudanese.

Oh, it's the, we're just going to extend the temporary foreign workers stay for Tim Hortons. And then it's going to be another company and it's going to be another group and it's going to be another reason. or there will be an external pressure that should justify us bringing more people and there's going to be a famine or there's going to be a flood or a civil war somewhere and we as a country will feel it is our responsibility, our duty

to welcome those asylum seekers, those refugees and then we're going to find ourselves like I said with exceptionally high numbers of new to country people who that we were promised wasn't going to be the case anymore. You know, 10 years under Justin Trudeau and the entire immigration system

has gone pie-shaped, pear-shaped, I'm sorry. And Mark Carney was supposed to come in and reestablish a little sanity, a little order, a little discretion, a little more of a methodology behind it so that we could get back to a place where we can all rally behind a great immigration system. That's not the case.

I guarantee you, mark my words, this time next year, we will be staring down the barrel of a massive number that we were told we weren't going to be dealing with. Well, we ask our political panel why the NDP thinks it's okay to buy military gear from the U.S., but when we sell to the U.S., we're terrible people. We'll explain that next right here on the Ben Mulroney show. Maybe it's just a phase you're going through.

You'll get over it. I can't help you with that. The next appointment is in six months. You're not alone. Finding mental health support shouldn't leave you feeling more lost. At CAMH, we know how frustrating it can be trying to access care. We're working to build a future where the path to support is clear, and every step forward feels like progress,

not another wrong turn. Visit camh.ca to help us forge a better path for mental health care. Well, it's that time. Every Friday we get a power duo together to make me look really good for this week in politics, the Friday edition. So please welcome to the panel. Michael Burns, CEO of the Canadian Valor Games and Chris Chapin, political commentator and managing principal

at Upstream Strategy. Guys, welcome to the show. Happy Friday. Great to be here. Happy Friday, Ben. All right, Chris, I want to start with you because the political epitaph of John Rustad is being written. He rose and then he fell in such short order that I think we've got to take a few minutes to ask ourselves what exactly happened. This is the leader of the BC Conservative Party that took this spent force in BC politics, brought them into relevance,

and, in fact, competed for government. Now they, and as the leader of the opposition, now he's out. The party is done with him. Makes sense of that for us. Well, I mean, he'd alienated a lot of his caucus, Ben, and you know better than most how important that is to remain as leader. You need to have the confidence of those that sit around you in that caucus room. And so being the leader of the BC Conservatives was always going to be a challenge.

And Rustad, you know, stake some positions that frustrated some. Tell us, tell our listeners why it was always going to be a challenge. Well, it was because that party, you know, the conservatives as a conservative party haven't governed British Columbia in my lifetime. You know, it's always been some sort of an amalgamation of the BC liberals who was, you know, a bit of a joint force between conservatives and liberals in British Columbia. It shouldn't surprise anybody that's either been to or hasn't been to British Columbia, but it's just followed their politics. It is a left-leaning progressive province. And so being the truly conservative party that John Rustad was leading, it was always going to be a challenge to keep that tent united on the right.

The BC liberals had always done a good job bringing conservatives into the fold and being a bit of a two-tent party. BC United tried it and failed miserably. And that was what set in motion the opportunity for John Rustad to lead the BC conservatives and poach many of the BC United members following their rebrand as the BC liberals. So it was, I believe it's always going to be tough to be a truly conservative party in British Columbia. I know colleagues of mine in the conservative movement disagree with me, but I just don't think that it's an easy task to be the right-wing party in a province that has not typically ever elected a right-wing government. Mike, do you think it also has to do with the fact that they just don't have a legacy, they don't have a history, that party is so new that they don't know who they are yet.

and so trying to figure out what the identity is and what their values are is, I mean, it's tricky. Yeah, no question. I think there's a lot of that at play. But as we watch from Ontario, it feels like BC politics has gone full real housewives. And I agree with Chris. Like there's been a lot of drama, obviously a number of surprise resignations. But here's the thing.

I think the conservatives now have a. something that's rare in politics. They have a chance to reset the button. And if they can get serious and unite behind a solid leader and stop treating caucus like meetings like group therapy, I think they can still be contenders. Because if they're not, Premier Eby is going to be able to run against a party auditioning for political reality TV. Yeah. And look, the conservatives were, even though they didn't win, the threat of them winning in the last election caused the NDP, to walk back their exceptionally dangerous perspective on open and free drug use across that province. I mean, without a conservative ascendancy, that that policy would still be in effect.

Chris? It certainly would be. There's no question about that, Ben. And I think there's aspects of conservative politics that can work in British Columbia. I think that just happened to be one that kind of reached the common sense level, that maybe this drug policy that BC was implementing the first and the country clearly wasn't working because Vancouver had become, you know, the, the epicenter of our drug problem in this country. So I think there's an opportunity for it. I think it's going to

be a tough challenge for this party to stay united, especially because I think John Rustad gave a lot of leeway and voice to those on, to the fall, I won't say far right. I hate that term, but to the right of him that's going to be very difficult to keep that party united because there are still those center-right voices that came along from BC United. And, you know, I know that the conservative party in British Columbia is its own unique thing, but we've talked about this before, and it feels to me like it's, there's an example in this party for conservatives around the country to pay attention to that in a lot of ways, the conservative party of Canada, the conservative party in British Columbia, they are

parties in name only. It's a movement dressed up as a party. And the problem with movements is it moves all over the place and eventually sometimes that movement can break apart and that is the fear of what could happen in british columbia that's what's happened historically uh on the right in canada and i i wonder michael how how can the how can the conservative movement um crystallize into an actual um into into a into a big tent party that would allow say just as the liberals did you could have a cretienne and a paul martin coexisting under the same tent in furtherance of the party's goals. Yeah, I think the key for the party is going to be to focus on what brings people together.

What are the common issues and not the fringe issues? Yeah. You know, there's an old saying that, you know, chaos is fatal, but staying chaotic. Sorry, chaos is not fatal, but staying chaotic is fatal. And I think they've got to learn from these recent episodes that the party has to, you know, focus on what brings a diverse group of people together and bring common sense to, of the real challenges that people in BC are facing. All right, well, let's move on to Stalantis.

As we know, 3,000 jobs were just lit on fire when that automaker, despite millions, if not billions of dollars by the federal government and subsidies, as well as the Ontario government, didn't change anything. They up and left and moved down to the United States, and now it looks like Canada is serving notice of default on their contract. I think a lot of Canadians, Chris, really wanted to see this happen.

They wanted to see that this company ran afoul of the, if not the letter, then certainly the spirit of the contract that they signed. And they want to know that there is money coming the way of all of those, to all those employees who lost their jobs. Yeah, absolutely. I think that first and foremost, I think most Canadian, especially if you're in the auto sector, just wish that Stalantis stayed put. You know, if you were an auto worker in Brampton,

you were hoping you'd keep your job in Brampton just like you've had for 10, 20, 30 years. But I think there's something to be said. And I hope the contract holds up that, you know, our federal minister hasn't given me the most confidence based off the fact she said she hasn't read the contract that we can actually, you know, enforce any kind of a default position with them. But if they are in fact going to, and they've made it clear, moves south of the border and default on this agreement, I hope we take them for as much money as we possibly can because, you know, a deal is a deal. And if they think they're better position in the short term being in the United States, because that's what, you know, makes Donald Trump smile and standing beside them in the Oval Office. then that's fine. But, you know, I hope Canadians take them for every penny their worth. I think as far as I'm concerned, this is the only move the liberals could have made, correct, Mike? I mean, they couldn't just sit back and just say, all right, well, you know, sucks to be them and we're better off without them.

They had to go, they had to go get that money. They have to go at least try to get that money. No question. Look, we spent billions of dollars into EB incentives because we wanted jobs in a foothold in the future auto economy. You know, you don't write. industrial policy or you don't write a check and hope for the best. If the contract says deliver jobs and the jobs don't show up, the government has the right to act. And I think they're doing the right thing. And look, I remember Regan Watts on a different panel pointed out once, he said, if you live in a world where you believe that governments should be making bets like this and placing big bets on the future of the EV supply chain, for example,

then you have to recognize it every now and then one of those bets won't pay off. It's part and parcel of making a bet. However, if there is language in the contract that Stalantus ran a foul of, then yeah, the government should hit them as hard as they possibly can and go get the money for, like I said, those 3,000 workers who find themselves without a job. We are going to, after the break, guys, we're going to talk about military procurement. We're going to talk about how it's a two-way street. We're buying from the Americans. Apparently, the Americans are buying from us and how the NDP seem to have a problem with at least one side of that equation. And then I want to have a real conversation about our commitment to Ukraine.

We have spent billions of dollars more than anybody else in the Western world. And some people are asking, have we reached the end of the road in terms of how much we can give? It's an important conversation. I'm glad that you guys are here for it. So don't go anywhere. When we come back, more with the political panel on the Ben Mulroney Show. Canada's Wonderland is bringing the holiday magic this season with Winterfest on select nights now through January 3rd. Step into a winter wonderland filled with millions of dazzling lights, festive shows, rides, and holiday treats.

Plus, Coca-Cola is back with Canada's kindest community, celebrating acts of kindness nationwide with a chance of at 100,000 donation for the winning community and a 2026 holiday caravan stop. Learn more at canadaswunderland.com. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney's show and welcome back to this week in politics with Michael Burns and Chris Chapin. Guys, thanks so much for sticking around. I think a lot of us are happy to hear. Anytime we hear that Canada is investing in our military, that is good news and Canada is

buying close to $4 billion in airstrike munitions from the United States. These are the types that can be carried by fighter jets like our CF-18s, which are on their way out, or the F-35s, which are probably on their way in. So that's all, this is a big, this is a big deal, isn't it, Mike? Oh, and no question. Look, we, we buy billions of military equipment from the U.S., and we sell them armored vehicles. You know, the one thing about our military with the U.S. is that we're completely integrated. So this is a big boost for our industry and for jobs staying here in Canada.

No, it is great. I'm glad to hear it. I know that we have, Chris, there's still some issues on how exactly we do the requisitioning for our military equipment. It's not, you know, it's still too much of a political back and forth. where the next government could come in and cancel a contract, and next thing you know, we're back to square one. But I think most Canadians would look at something like this and say, yes, it's about time we started giving our military what they need

to do the job that we send them to do. Absolutely. I think, Ben, it's been comical for too long what we've equipped our military with and the type of equipment that Canada just owns as a sovereign nation. And so I think us, you know, continuing to build up our military is a good thing for far too long across party lines in Ottawa. I think we failed to do that. And I think we owed it to not just Canada to build up our military. We owed it to the United States to build up our military.

You know, I believe there's always been a promise to them that, you know, we shouldn't take them for granted. And I think if there's a couple few ounces of truth of some of the issues the president had with Canada for a very long time, it's been that we've never come close to hitting that 2% of our GDP, you know, for NATO reasons. And so I think this is a great first step. I'd like to see us do more. Part of the challenge is always going to be that we don't have a huge military. So it's, you know, other than the story there a couple weeks ago that we were going to send public servants into reserve training in Ottawa. You know, it still feels like we need to build up our military itself.

Yeah. Otherwise, we're just going to have a stockpile of missiles with no planes to launch them. And then, look, the NDP was always, you know, Now, on a good day, we used to say that the NDP was the conscience of parliament, right? And, and, but when I hear them bothered by the fact that a Canadian company from the greater Toronto area is, is selling a Canadian armored vehicles to the United States, to the government for, for their, for the, um, immigration and customs enforcement, ICE, uh, the NDP is none too happy with this.

but like to me it's kind of like this is not the this is not the thing that you you complain about this is a Canadian company that builds a product that somebody wants and that we're selling it and there you go I when I hear the NDP Mike complain about this it's I mean I get that it's on brand for them but it's just it's it's it's not it's unhelp yeah no I completely agree I mean let's be honest nobody buys armored vehicles for neighborhood picket picks. But the issue is, look, if the NDP has an issue, then the issue is export rules. And so they should change the rules.

But let's not pretend for a moment or shock that military gear gets used by security agencies. I just think this is political theater and not good defense policy. Yeah, Chris, what do you think? Yeah, the exact same. I mean, shocking that military equipment or heavy grade. You know, equipment might be used by different agencies that feel like they have a high security risk for, you know, for their employees. And so I think it's, I think this story is great news for a Canadian company. We should be, I believe, celebrating any time. Yeah. Right now, an American

agency purchases Canadian equipment. I'd like to see us strengthen our bonds. I'm not sure who. I mean, I guess the answer is the NDP prefer that this kind of equipment just not be sold, period. Yeah, no, exactly. Yeah. Their core, they just, you know, they don't believe that this kind of equipment should exist. Well, they think ice shouldn't exist. They think they want, you know, that's a, you got to take one further step from that. But I do want to move on, uh, because we got to talk about Ukraine, uh, the fact that Canada has spent $22 billion in Ukraine, sending aid and, and, uh, as well as a military contracts

since 2022. That's a lot of money. I want to, I want to level set. I want to say clearly and for the record that I believe Canada has an obligation. to support Ukraine ever since the West and through NATO and Bill Clinton told the Ukrainians, you don't need your nuclear weapons. You were the third largest nuclear superpower in the world after the fall of Soviet Union, but you don't need those anymore because we're going to take care of you.

And we didn't. And now it's up to us to help them get out of the mess that we were part of allowing to happen. So I believe we should be spending money. But this is a lot of money, Mike. this is a lot of money yeah no listen there's no question 22 billion dollars is a significant amount of funding uh i mean that's real money even by ottawa standards um but look i i i share your view um i don't think supporting ukraine um it's it's not like we're supporting a charity we're actually supporting a strategy uh and the fact is is that if ukraine collapses

Russia will gain strength and make Europe more destabilized and that will make Canada part of a more dangerous world. So yes, the spending is big but so are the stakes. Chris, how do you see it? Because I do believe with this corruption scandal that has reared its ugly head in Ukraine, there are louder voices in Canada

saying if they're going to be stealing money over there, why are we sending our hard-earned money there? I think that's a fair point. There's no arguing that, Ben. I think the, I think it, you know, off the last topic we just talked about, I think it speaks volumes to just the kind of the breakdown in the international leadership within NATO. I think never in a world, you know, you referenced Bill Clinton saying that in the first place. I don't think there was ever a world where we thought the U.S. president wouldn't be the one leading the charge to defend the Ukraine. But with President Trump and his bizarre affection relationship, whatever we want to call it with President Putin,

The United States has taken a step back. And so it's forced countries like Canada to take a stronger position in defending the Ukraine against this attack by Russia. $22 billion is a ton of money. And that's a lot of money that's being diverted from Canadian health care and Canadian, it's, you know, our education system, things that ideally in a perfect world would be spent in a far better way to benefit Canadians. But we made a promise. We used to honor those promises. It's unfortunate that I think we found herself in a position where, the, you know, the world's true superpower seems far too comfortable to walk away from

the promises they've, you know, made in the past. Mike, what did you make of our former cabinet minister, Christia Freeland, who's now Canada's special envoy to Ukraine? She was in Toronto and she was speaking to business leaders talking about how this, this is going to be a, Ukraine's going to be a great place to invest in the future. And she was downplaying the corruption scandal saying that because it was the Ukrainian themselves that uncovered it, that's proof of a healthy democracy. I don't know whether that is, I don't know whether she's right or wrong. I have no idea. What do you think?

Well, look, I think you can still support Ukraine and still demand accountability. And what I mean by that is when you're spending $22 billion, Canadians deserve transparency. So where is the money going? What are the outcomes that we're seeing? And what's the long term plan? So I think we can do both. Look, I hope that, you know, someday down the road, Ukraine, we get, we get, we end this war and Ukraine can reestablish itself. And I think, you know, look, there's, there's a lot of good things in Ukraine, including the people. Yes. That we could get behind in the best and see what, you know, what opportunities there might be for, for Canadian companies. All right, gentlemen, Mike Burns, Chris Chapin. I want to thank

you both for joining. Are you going to be paying attention to the World Cup draw? Absolutely. I'm looking forward to. All right. Guys, thank you so much. Enjoy your weekend.