The Ben Mulroney Show - Air Canada booze, Warship warning and Aussie sunscreen scare!

Episode Date: October 2, 2025

- Michael Byers/ co-directs the Outer Space Institute - Canadian dermatology association  president Dr. Mark Kirchhof If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://link.chtbl.com/bms⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Also, on youtube -- ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@BenMulroneyShow⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Insta: ⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠ Twitter: ⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠ TikTok: ⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠ Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This podcast is brought to you by the National Payroll Institute, the leader for the payroll profession in Canada, setting the standard of professional excellence, delivering critical expertise, and providing resources that over 45,000 payroll professionals rely on. Hey, thanks, son. What do I owe you? Don't worry about it. It's payday. Payday, huh? I bet you it went straight into your bank account and you didn't even check your pay stuff. My what? Your pay stuff. Back in my day, you had to wait for a physical check. Then, you had to go to the bank. Deposit it, and wait for it to clear.

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National payroll party? Precisely. Sounds like a plan, you know, just one thing. What's that? I'm choosing the music. What? And I'm sitting in the backseat. The whole way?

The whole way. This podcast is sponsored by BetterHelp. If you've been following the news, like really following it, you know how exhausting it can be. Politics, conflict, uncertainty. It's a lot to carry. And for many men, there's this expectation to stay calm, stay in control,

and not talk about how it's affecting you. But the truth is, you're allowed to feel overwhelmed. You're allowed to say, I'm not okay right now. And trust me, I have been there. Whether it's the state of the world, stress at home, or just feeling like you've got to have it all together

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BetterHelp, H-E-L-P.com slash Mulruni. Welcome to the Ben Mulroney show. It's Thursday, October 2nd. We hope that whatever you're doing, you're having a great day. We invite you to follow us on YouTube. Subscribe to our YouTube channel. We are there. We're the Ben Mulroney show.

We've got a great roster of content for people to enjoy. And we really hope that if you enjoy it, you subscribe to the channel, the more, the more people who subscribe, the more content we can push out onto YouTube. And, uh, and, and, you know, and look, and if you don't want to see my face, subscribe to YouTube and just turn your phone over. And, and, and just listen. Just listen to the dulcet tones of Ben Mulroney. Uh, yesterday on the show, we pointed out a big change coming to WestJet where they have, uh, they decided, they said, we're listening to what our, our, um, our passengers want.

And what they want is they don't want to be able to recline. And so none of our seats are going to recline. If you do want to recline, we're going to have 12 seats in the front. And you can pay more for those ergonomic chairs with all sorts of bells and whistles. And I think if somebody doesn't want to recline, they don't have to recline. And if they do want to recline, they should be able to recline. That's my perspective. My giant oaf of a producer who's six foot five and...

I resent the giant comment. He thinks this is perfect. And I thought to myself, hey, maybe I think this is taking something away that people have been getting for free. And if you want, you're going to have to upsell us to get that thing. Perhaps what this is, though, is Westshed will be the unreclining airline in Canada. And Air Canada will be the reclining airline. And maybe that's the difference moving forward. But one other thing that Air Canada has been offering since the summer.

And it looks like it's continuing is free booze. There's a free alcohol strategy. Or Canada offers complimentary beer and wine in economy on all flights. It's the only North American legacy carrier to do so. That's a big deal, right? And it was that return to giving people something that they used to get for free, or when I say free, that they used to get as part of the ticket that they bought. And it made people feel good.

And customer satisfaction has been on the rise. and they think that food and beverage is seen as having a bigger impact on passenger experience than other services. It is about money, right? Of course it is. It's easier to make people happy with some booze than it is to give them something else.

I think airlines, including Air Canada, faced criticism over the nickel and diming of customers, baggage, seat assignment fees. So waiving alcohol costs is cheaper than cutting baggage fees. I guess that's the math that they've done. and free drinks are expected to help attract U.S. passengers. And the financial backdrop of the airlines is always important as well.

They've forecast $375 million operating income in 2025. There had been labor disruptions. Like I remember telling my friend, who was an Air Canada flight attendant. And I told him, I was like, you know what you have to do. You have to keep the – this back when they had the – they don't – A lot of the planes still have the screens on the back of every headrest so that you can watch TV. And back in the day when they first released them, they wouldn't actually turn it on until you got to a cruising altitude. Do you remember that?

Right? And I told my friend, I said, look, I genuinely think that if you keep that on, if you have that on when people sit down and it's on until they get up to get off the plane, you're going to have fewer complaints about sitting at the gate. people are going to not complain as much because they're not going to notice because they're watching CSI. But it's a safety issue where they say in case something happens we need to be able to get into your attention.

They said it was a safety issue until it wasn't because now it's on all the time. And as a matter of fact, on a lot of planes, that Wi-Fi is on now because in a lot of cases in order to make the planes lighter, they've gotten rid of all of those

like the computers that turn on those TVs individually and instead it's like a cloud, right, where you can just, you've got the free Wi-Fi that allows you to watch whatever you want from a secure Air Canada website on your computer. Can I tell you from covering a political election,

a federal election, flying around the country, there would be reporters standing in the aisles on takeoff and landing, basically surfing. Yeah. Because, and there were no rules. Yeah. And they did that just to be like, look what we're doing. I've been fortunate in my life to fly on private planes

every now and then. Certainly not nearly as much as I would like. but I've been on a private plane every now and then and the rules are far more lax on a plane private plane than they are on a commercial airliner and so to me a lot of it is about that. If you want people to not complain, keep them busy. You want people not to complain?

Do you want people to not complain? Give them those twigs. You know the twigs? It's a Canadian company. It's a pretzel company called Twigs. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The woman who started that company, by the way, I want to talk to her on this show.

The woman who started twigs, if you've ever been on an Air Canada flight, you know they offer you either cookies or twigs. So you either get a salty or a sweet snack. This woman's a genius because what she did was for a while, and I think it was like the initial contract, she gave the twigs away for free to Air Canada because she knew that people would get on that plane and they would try the twigs. They would love the twigs and then what would they do? They'd get off the plane and they'd go into all parts around the country and they would tell people about the twigs. And then those people get on planes and they would try the twigs. twigs. And next thing you knew, it was like the easiest way to reach critical mass in terms of letting people know about her company. Wow. It's like the taste testers. Yeah. No, no. Of course.

And like they would go tell me they'd get off the plane. I just tried these new, these new pretzels. Anyway, good on that woman. I don't know who she is, but I want to talk to her because that's an entrepreneur that I want to get behind. Love the twigs. But you know, there's this, there is a day. It's a great idea to get the booze on, I guess, to relax people. But, you know, how many videos have you seen? Yes. How many videos have you seen that sound a little bit like this? I'm telling you, I'm getting the fuck off, and there's a reason why I'm getting the fuck off and everyone can either believe it or they cannot believe it. I don't give two f***s, but I am telling you right now, that mother f***, that f***er back there is not real.

And you can sit on this plane and you can fucking die with them or not. I'm not going to. I've never been on a plane with anything even resembling that sort of disruption. Have you? Yeah, I have. That was, I think, a mix of alcohol and breakdown. Yeah. There was something she might have been mixing, like a sleep aide with booze. Because I don't think they serve you enough on those planes.

And they're smart. It's not on the plane. It's when you're in the terminal and then you squeeze on and you have a couple of more. That's it. No, you're right. Yeah, you show up and you've already been overserved and then they give you one or two more and that's it. You just, you're over the edge. You hit the edge.

And some people actually can't hold their liquor either. Yeah. So it's just like one or two of those little bottles. You look like a man who can hold his liquor. I will hold it. I used to not drink on planes, but a couple of vodka sodas because they don't have tequila. I wish they had tequila. That puts me right to sleep.

I'm a great traveler. My wife hates it because I could get eight hours of solid sleep. get on a plane and fall asleep again. I can't sleep on planes because my head is above the headrest. Here we go. What do you mean? Here we go again. Here we got me.

Can a day go by that we don't talk about the burden that you carry for being a larger person, a taller man on a plane? Give me a break. Your head, it's like a bobble head. You're able to rest your head against it. There you go. You said it, man. I'm 6'2. The chairs are not built for someone who's 6'2 either, and yet I make it work.

Okay. I do. You do make it. There's a difference between 6-2 and 6-5. I've been your height before. Yeah. You've never been my height. I had a theory.

Like, I had lots of theories, man. I got lots of theories. One of the biggest problems I have, you know, they've got so many people who are, um, uh, there's so much time is taken by, by people trying to, like, jam as many, uh, as much luggage as they can in the overhead, right? And is there's, how many times have you been on a flight where they say the overhead is, um, uh,

we're at capacity and we're going to ask people to check their bags at the front door of the plane. Yeah. So I had this theory that maybe they should reverse the paradigm where they give you

a free bag to check and you have to pay to bring your bag on the plane. Because the goal is to get people off the plane as quickly as possible, correct? You would hope so. Right? No, but that is the goal.

And what takes the longest time? The longest time is when everybody has to remove their bags from the overhead and sometimes somebody put it like four rows back that slows everything down so if the goal is to get people off the plane as quickly as possible then you make you incentivize them you incentivize them

to put it underneath and and guess what the tall person like me always helps those short people can't reach I'm not doing that anymore and we're moving on why Canada should rethink its multi-billion dollar investment in warships that's next on the Benmoorne show Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show,

The Changing Landscape of Warfare and what we need as a nation to defend our borders, to promote Canadian values, and to give our men and women who bravely suit up in defense of Canada, is to give them what they need to do the job is paramount. And it is a conversation that is ongoing and ever evolving. And we're joined now by Michael Byers. He co-directs the Outer Space Institute and Professor of International Politics

at the University of British Columbia. Michael, welcome back to the show. It's great to be here. Thank you. So I don't think you'll find anybody on this show, at least, who isn't happy that we're having this conversation and that we have a prime minister who is, he's backing up his words with pretty big paychecks, right? And so I'm very glad that we're living in this world.

But it doesn't really matter if what we buy doesn't serve the end goal. And the end goal is generally speaking what I described off the top of the segment. And we're sort of staring down the barrel of a purchase that you think is ill-timed. I think that's a diplomatic way of saying it. Yeah. So let's go back to the. early days when Stephen Harper was Prime Minister of Canada. Mr. Harper and his cabinet realized that we needed a replacement for the Halifax

class frigates, that the frigates were getting old and it was time to build a new fleet of surface warships. That was two decades ago. The ships are still not under construction, and there are lots of reasons for that, but basically the Canadian government is really slow. at defense procurement. And in those two decades, technologies have advanced, and not just the technologies for surface warships,

but the technologies that can be deployed against them. And we're now into a world of small satellite-controlled motorboats with 350 kilograms of high explosives in the front, being used as kamikaze vessels, autonomous kamikaze vessels. were going to be in the next decade, almost certainly, in the age of artificially intelligent, intelligence-driven long-range torpedoes that could be deployed in swarms against surface warships. Yeah, so, Michael, we saw a similar activity in the Russia-Ukraine war where Ukraine employed, I have to assume, cost-effective drone technology to pretty much wipe out what was then sort of the Russian flu.

that was tasked in on that front. Yeah, and that was the real game changer when the inventiveness of the Ukrainian military in putting a Starlink satellite terminal, the size of a pizza box onto a small motorboat, combined with an optical unit, the kind that you use in an airborne drone, and 350 kilograms of high explosives. and you go hunting Russian warships. And these small motorboats that they could construct for $10,000, $20,000 were killing warships. And it drove the Russian fleet back into port.

It opened the Black Sea to commercial traffic again. And everyone looked at this and went, hang on a second. This is asymmetrical warfare. It's working for a few tens of thousands of dollars. They are destroying half billion dollar Russian warships. So let's give our listeners some. context, Michael. So we made as a nation our formal announcement on these ships on March 8th of this year. And over the full program, we're looking for 15 ships. It's going to cost, the cost estimates

have ranged in government documents around $56 to $60 billion. That's before taxes for the entire procurement and construction of these ships. And Irving's shipbuilding has been given the contract to build what's called these river class destroyers. So, Where are we in that procurement life cycle? Have we committed to these yet? Have we paid as a contract signed? Or are we signaling the warning that it may be time to reevaluate before we put ink to contract? Yeah.

Well, the actual decision to build these large surface warships was made more than 15 years ago when the federal government signed an umbrella agreement with Irving. what the Trudeau government did earlier this year, and this was one of the last acts of the Trudeau government, was to sign a contract for the first handful of these vessels, an actual binding contract. They haven't signed a contract for all 15 yet, and that's my point, right? I'm okay with us having five or six or seven of these ships, $7 billion each, but the rest of the money is for ships that won't be delivered until the 2030s and the 2040s, and I'm pretty sure is someone who follows technology development very closely, that those ships will be obsolete by the time they're delivered.

So I would like to see that additional money put into developing a more modern mixed fleet that includes a lot of autonomous vessels in the Royal Canadian Navy. So yeah, so talk to me about what you think ideal, because let's assume we're starting from scratch. I don't know about what our Canadian Armed Forces is currently sitting on in terms of infrastructure that is, you know, that is ready for the arena of war, ready to serve the purpose of protecting our borders. I have no idea what we've got. So let's assume we're starting from zero. What do you think is a responsible procurement path for the Canadian Armed Forces as

it relates to the military, the marine arm of our military? We should be doing exactly what the United States, the United Kingdom and Australia, are doing right now, which is moving towards a new model of a mixed fleet. So a small number of traditional large surface vessels, a fleet of new submarines, crude submarines. And then lots and lots of smaller vessels, many of them autonomous or semi-autonomous, seizing on new technologies as they come online, building small ships quickly. Sorry, I don't need to interrupt. I don't have a lot of time left.

I want to jump in on a few of these things. Are you saying that it feels like what you're saying is our procurement system isn't responsive enough. It's not nimble enough to make these changes as the technology changes. And the technology is changing so fast. And yet we commit to these long-term 30, 40-year projects that by the time we get what we signed up for, it should go the way the Dodo Bird. Yeah, exactly. Absolutely. We're investing in Calvary when we can already see the development of the tank coming, right?

And we're making – we made the decision on these large surface vessels more than 15 years ago, and it was a wise decision at the time. But the Canadian bureaucracy, and I include the military in this, are so slow with their procurements that by the time these things are delivered, they're going to be more or less obsolete. So how do the Australians do it differently than us? I heard, and I don't have specifics on it, but from what I understand, they have a different procurement system than we do, and it's one that we maybe should take some tips from. Yeah, and actually, today the Carney government announced they're creating a defense

procurement agency to centralize these functions in Ottawa, and that's a good thing. Okay, that's a good thing. My point is, my point is that there are existing procurements underway, locked in involving many tens of billions of dollars that need to be reevaluated. Do we really want the ships that we thought we needed 20 years ago? And is anybody suggesting that the feds are keeping this deal with Irving possibly because of the jobs at the shipyard? I mean, because to me that would be paying attention to the wrong part of the equation, right? It shouldn't be about the jobs at the shipyard. It should be about the soldiers and how we take care of them and giving them the tools they need to do their job.

Every Canadian government for more than half a century has had an eye on the jobs creation. aspect of defense procurement. And that's been part of the problem. Gotcha. A few times, like during the war in Afghanistan, we moved to rapid sole source procurement. We got a fleet of Globmaster long-range cargo aircraft very quickly because of that. But the traditional model has been to move slowly and to look at the job creation and to look at Canadianizing of the equipment to essentially give

more opportunity for Canadian defense industries. I'm not saying that's necessarily bad. What I'm saying is that we have committed to some big long-term procurements that don't make sense at least not in their full extent and the surface warships are the prime example

of that. Michael Byers, thank you very much for being here for sounding the alarm. I think it's important for all of us. All us who want our military to be ready and to be taken care of so that they can take care of us should be paying attention to conversations like this. We appreciate it. This podcast is sponsored by Better Help.

If you've been following the news, like really following it, you know how exhausting it can be. Politics, conflict, uncertainty. It's a lot to carry. And for many men, there's this expectation to stay calm, stay in control, and not talk about how it's affecting you. But the truth is, you're allowed to feel overwhelmed. You're allowed to say, I'm not okay right now. And trust me, I have been there.

Whether it's the state of the world, stress at home, or just feeling like you've got to have it all together and have all the answers. You don't have to hold it in. BetterHelp is here to help with the world's largest network of licensed therapists. They've already supported over 5 million people. You can connect with a therapist online from wherever you are. No wait list, no office visits.

And if it's not the right fit, you can switch any time. It's time to put your mental health on the agenda. Talk it out with better help. Visit BetterHelp.com slash Mulruni today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, help.com slash Mulruni. With Amex Platinum, access to exclusive Amex pre-sale tickets can score you a spot trackside. So being a fan for life turns into the trip of a lifetime. That's the powerful backing of Amex.

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I dare you to show up Paul and Blurview dares to shape the future of disability health care for kids Together we dare Donate today at togetherweedare.com Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show if there's one thing that

that we as a society have recognized is that being outside without the protection of an SPF protecting us against the dangerous rays of the sun that has terrible knock on effects for us individually in terms of skin cancer

melanoma and also terrible knock on effects for the cost and the burden that the health care system has to carry and so protecting ourselves, arming ourselves with an SPF as much as possible is paramount. And I think it's a responsible thing to do. I think teaching our kids to enjoy themselves outside responsibly by covering up and by wearing a proper protection in the form of a high SPF sunscreen has been a great evolution since the days

of some people just slathering on baby oil and calling it a day. And just remember it like Kramer Remember when he went in the sun wearing butter, right? So anyway, we're not living in that world anymore. However, news out of Australia is that there is a massive recall of 18 sunscreens. They've either been recalled or paused due to concerns that the SPF claims were exaggerated with some formulas testing as low as an SPF 4. According to news sources, the source of the issue was a base formula from Wild Child Laboratory. No manufacturing faults were found. Discrepancies appear tied to industry-wide SPF testing. So we thought, what a great opportunity to check in on the Canadian side of this conversation.

And we're pleased to welcome Canadian Dermatology Association President, Dr. Mark Kirchhoff. Doctor, welcome to the show. Oh, thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. Okay, so when you heard this news out of Australia, what did you think? well we know that information spreads quickly in this day and age social media uh sometimes exaggerates and blows up these things and so uh as we've seen you know one thing happens at one side of the world and everyone suddenly thinks it applies everywhere right and uh thankfully that's not the case in the situation yeah from from what i understand this is a an australian brand i've never

heard of wild child before so i have to assume that this is an australian brand that is bought and paid for by Australians and we have our own, we have our own supply chain, we have our own supply. That's exactly it. I'll just, maybe I'll just explain to your audience what SPF is because I think that's an important concept to understand. Some people don't really understand what sun protection factor SPF means. So basically the number that you're looking at on the bottle refers to how much longer you can stay out in the sun without turning red.

So if you normally turn red after one minute and you use an SPF 50, now you can stay outside for 50 minutes before you turn red. And so the big issue here is, you know, you're putting on something that you think is an SPF 50 and it turns out to be an SPF 4 or 3 or 2. And so you're going to get a lot more damage to your skin in a faster time period. And so that's the concern here. In this situation, it looks like there's a contract manufacturer that was commissioned by a whole bunch of brands in Australia. This contract manufacturer is located in Australia. And so they don't export to Canada, luckily. But obviously, we always have to think about happening in our country to make sure that we have the checks and balances in place to prevent

this from happening. And that's what I want to ask you next. So there are a number of companies in Canada, I'm sure, that make certain claims about protecting one's skin from the harmful rays of the sun. What sort of checks and balances are in place to ensure that what's in that bottle and what goes on the skin is exactly as advertised? So anything that you buy in a pharmacy actually has to go through Health Canada approval. Then when you say pharmacy, are you talking behind the counter or are you talking just the stuff that's on the on the shelf? Just the stuff that's on the shelf. If it's sold in a pharmacy, it has to have a drug identification number or a DIN number.

If it's a sunscreen that doesn't contain any chemicals, then it can be classified as a natural product number. But both of them are required to be approved through Health Canada. And when that happens, they have to submit data to Health Canada saying, look, this is the ingredients list. Here is what we're putting into it. And here's the testing that proves that it actually perturbed. text patients from the sun. And that involves, there's different standards around the world. ISO, FDA has their own standard. And it's based on human tests, so actually taking volunteers and putting the sunscreen on their backs often and saying, okay, well, how long can we expose this

area now to that same amount of UV radiation, getting that redness? And then they also have to do like a little biochemical test where they put it on a membrane and see how much UV light goes through. So both of those things are done for every product that's sold in a pharmacy. So let me tell you the problem as I see it, because we're living in a time where, as you said, these stories can go around the world and they can get amplified on social media. And then you've got armchair critics who will amplify it and turn it into something that's probably not. But then there's always somebody that the next iteration of that content is people saying, here's how you can do this from home

that's better for you. I've got a solution for you. You don't need to go to the pharmacy and pick up an SPF that's probably full of chemicals that your body doesn't want. I've got a homemade remedy for you. Yes. Yeah. And what I have patients like that who say, I want to use something that's natural and I say, well,

we actually do have natural sunscreens. Things that contain zinc and titanium, these are natural minerals that are found, you know, in the soil. And we put it on babies, right? So if you think about diaper cream, that's just zinc oxide, sort of the same thing that we put on or in some sunscreen. So there are natural options that people want to use it that have been evaluated by Health Canada. And so my question is always, wouldn't you want

something that has been properly evaluated than promoted by somebody who's on the internet who you don't know what their background is? Do they have a chemistry background? Do they have a medicine background? Has it been vetted by anybody? And so with anything online, we always have to be careful and think about what we're doing and what kind of information source we're taking into consideration. Dr. What's the general rule of thumb for walking around the world? Because, you know, I've met a number of people in the skincare world who say that, you know,

when a man after he's done shaving and he puts on, you know, his after shave balm, that it makes sense to put on an SPF before you leave the house, even if you're just, you know, walking to your car and you're going to be spending very little time outdoors. Uh, is that alarmist or is that realistic? I mean, I'm a realist. I understand that, you know, a, men don't like using as many topical products or skincare products as women. Uh, a lot of women have moisturizers that put on a daily basis and are much more diligent in putting on sunscreen. So I understand that, you know, many of my patients who are men will say, oh, I don't know if I should put it on. And basically, we're always trying to

do harm reduction. Yeah. So, you know, if you're, if you're, if you're going, going to work at, you know, five o'clock in the morning trying to commute in Toronto downtown traffic, you're probably not getting a lot of sun exposure. You know, do you need sunscreen in that situation? Well, to get the full protective effect, absolutely. Is it going to cause harm, maybe minimally, but, you know, you might get some UV radiation very early in the morning. It might cause some photo aging. You're probably not going to burn. You're probably not going to get sunburn or get blisters. But as I said, it's always about harm reduction. It's sort of like smoking. You know, smoking one cigarette is better than smoking two packs a day, but smoking none is even better.

So it's a very similar analogy. Okay, Doc, do you still in 2025 see people who apply baby oil when they go out in the sun? I do. You do? We still, we, oh, absolutely. Who are these people? Who are these people? Tell me what they're thinking.

Walk me through their thought process. yeah so um so we know that the quote unquote tanned look uh you know people like that look it's been popularized in the media i have no idea what you're talking about chenelle no okay all right go on go on doc yeah yeah so it started with chenelle way back when and uh you know they said oh you live a life of luxury so you can spend all your time on a beach getting a nice brown yes it's the code d'azure look band de solet i remember that growing up that orange cream Exactly. So basically this got popularized, and then there was an explosion of tanning beds and tanning parlors that were being used. In still, in some fitness clubs, they have tanning beds. So there is some association with sort of having a healthy glow.

And really, this is a problem that was propagated. Again, smoking is very analogous, right? I mean, smoking was done everywhere. It was thought to be safe. You did it on television. You did it in a plane. And now we know the harms. And the same thing applies for UV radiation. and sun exposure. And so now we know that it's associated with, you know, massively increased risks of skin cancer, photo aging. And so if you want to reduce that risk and reduce your aging process,

because we know that sun is the most important factor in skin aging, then really using the sun protection is very important. And I see the effects now of all these patients in their 80s and 70s who have lots of skin care. Doc, we're going to leave it there. Dr. Mark Kirchoff from the Canadian Dermatology Association. Thank you very much. I run to the chaos, and Survivor is chaos.

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