The Ben Mulroney Show - AI's disruption of the job Market is No Longer Theoretical

Episode Date: June 3, 2025

Guests and Topics: -How Netflix could kill Television using A.I. Targeted Ads with Guest: Mohit Rajhans, Mediologist and Consultant, ThinkStart.ca -To tour or not to tour: Artists second-guess going on road as touring gets harder with Guest: Alan Cross, Host of the Ongoing History of New Music If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! https://globalnews.ca/national/program/the-ben-mulroney-show Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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When the in-laws decide that, actually, they will stay for dinner. Instacart has all your groceries covered this summer so download the app and get delivery in as fast as 60 minutes plus enjoy $0 delivery fees on your first three orders. Service fees exclusions and terms apply. Instacart, groceries that over deliver. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney Show and of course we are at the birth of AI and just a few ago, it was something that we were talking about as something that could be disruptive. And now we're living in the middle of it where those who know how to leverage it are improving and optimizing their work optimizing their lives, but there will be full blown revolutions in certain industries, certain sectors, and those revolutions will inevitably come with contractions on the human side of the job equation. There are certain jobs that will be done by AI.

They're currently being done by human beings. And when I say will, it could be right around the corner. We are already experiencing that impact to a certain extent. And so to talk about this really important topic, we're joined by somebody who has been living and breathing and colliding with AI every single day. And we're talking, of course, of a great friend of the show, Mohit Rajans

from thinkstart.ca. Mohit, what, I'm sorry, I just gave sort of the lay of the land. Did I get anything wrong in my intro? No, you know, you actually, it's funny, right? Because the conversation always sparks more conversations. On one hand, we're talking about the general term of artificial intelligence, but over the past two years,

you and I are the type of people that have seen a change and morph into so many different parts of conversations that are both relative and important to pay attention to. All right, so there's a couple of stories that we're talking about. There is new data. First, there's the anecdotal stuff, right? We hear about the anecdotes, but eventually the data comes to support the anecdotes.

And AI is taking human jobs in places. We talked about it last week with Duolingo, the language learning app that is going full, all in on AI. They're eventually going to cease using human beings as part of their language learning practice. And Shopify is also leaning into AI as well, which could see them shedding some human jobs as well. Yeah, I think the Shopify Duolingo ones are two separate stories, if you think about it, because Duolingo is basically coming to the point where they're saying, listen, language models are actually making it easier for people to be able to learn languages.

And so they're going to be able to expand in their offerings in ways that humans will not necessarily be needed. That's one story. But the Shopify thing that I found interesting, Ben, was that it's less about them saying, we want to replace things with AI. They're saying basically, listen, come to us with what you think AI can't do. And then we'll think of how the human can actually make that happen. Okay. Unfortunately, I think that's a little bit better approach because right now we've seen a lot of middle management sort of sit there and wait for the right time,

you know, to pull the chute or leave. So are you saying Shopify is trying to get ahead of the curve to ensure that if there is, call it attrition, if there is human attrition, it is minimized so that they can, like I said, optimize the human experience at Shopify. Is that their plan? I think that that's what the conversation should be more about based on what they're doing. They've always been forward thinking. I know they haven't necessarily always hit the mark from a communication

standpoint, but I trust that if Shopify and the way that they started and the way that they were trying to stay true to e commerce culture, if they're looking at maximizing the human potential by coming clean on what AI can do for humans right now, then maybe they are setting the standard. Now, let's talk about Duolingo for a second, because when I thought about it for a minute, I thought to myself, if there is one category, one sector, where I could absolutely appreciate

why humans aren't needed. It's learning a language because it's all based on rules. Like, and these rules have been set for years, for decades and centuries. If you want to learn French, there are a set number of rules that you need to learn. And so all, all it is, is AI coming up with quizzes and tricks of the trade and experiences within their app for you to learn that language. You don't need human beings to learn a language. At least that's the logic that my brain has adopted. Which is perfectly fine from a user perspective. But also, let's consider the fact that there are probably four steps ahead of what they were originally wanting to do from a product roadmap perspective. And if they can already see how their expansion is not going to be hindered by humans, then let's give them the credit. You know what I mean? Let's

make them believe, let's hope that they have a product that they think is foolproof. Chances are they won't succeed. Let's be honest, Ben, we're talking about two different ideas that people will have to eventually come back to the drawing board because it's not all going to be smooth. Yeah. And that's part of the conversation here that we need to consider about the future of employment. Yeah. They're saying, I think they want to expand their offering by over a hundred different programs, but I just, I go back to it. Like if I'm interacting with my phone to learn a language, I'm already, I'm already, like I'm interacting with a machine. So for the backend of that app

to be supported further by machines, I don't know that that affects the end user, as you said, so long as they iron out the kinks. But look at it, human beings are fallible as well. So you're gonna have problems in kinks anytime you roll out a new project, regardless of whether it is rolled out entirely by AI, or by human beings, or by a hybrid of the two. Okay, I got one point that might be a good

analogy here. When you're making the stadium, you need a certain amount of people to make the stadium. By the end of the three years that it has been in existence, you don't need that staff anymore on standby. So maybe that's what we're looking at when it comes to the future of this technology. Yeah, yeah, building it out with human beings. And then once you've built it out, there you go. Then you let the AI run the thing. But if that becomes the rule moving forward, then yeah, you're gonna have people horned out

of jobs naturally. Now let's move on to, that's sort of the world as we see it today. Let's move on to the world as it may become, because there's a story in the Toronto sun about a massive potential massive job losses in the United States do entirely to AI. So the AI from Anthropic, the CEO predicts that AI could eliminate up to 50% of entry level white collar jobs within the next five years, potentially increasing unemployment rates to 20%.

Like if people can't get a foot in the door in those white collar jobs, that spells a terrible future for those people moving forward. So the two things about this is one, I definitely want to listen to Anthropic CEO because he's got one of the best products out there when it comes to AI definitely knows what he's talking about. But I think that entry level jobs are about to change and the horizon for what is considered an entry level job is about to change. So what do you mean by that? So I think the idea right now is that if you put AI in every situation, you will obviously start to expose a massive amount of waste of time,

waste of energy, waste of resources. But if you can start to build with AI in mind, you're going to be able to have entry level jobs where what was an intern's job back in two, three or four years ago, could actually be somebody's job and excel even further with it has the tools to actually use their education right away. It doesn't have to wait for a certification process for three years just because it's time. That's the acceleration I'm looking for when it comes down to entry level jobs.

I think that people are going to be better prepared for some of the tasks at hand. And I get that. And I appreciate what you're saying. My fear is it's not a one for one swap. I think you're going to end up with, you know, for every, for every 15, 20, a hundred jobs that are lost due to AI, you may have a handful of this new version of that entry level job. That's the big fear. What do you do with those other 85 people?

We're listening, Ben. We're still in a place where we have email and snail mail in the same world. And if you think about it, when email first started, everyone thought to ourselves, well, there goes the post office, right? And that hasn't happened yet. So we're not unfortunately at that. Or fortunately, we're not at that point. You know, you and I have talked about how we can buttress

against misinformation due to the increasing false reality that AI videos can push onto our feed. This morning, I woke up to a very funny video of Donald Trump talking about cloning dinosaurs as a way of protecting the southern border. It looked real. Of course it wasn't real because it was so outrageous. Talking about velociraptors and pterodactyls

patrolling the southern border. It was ludicrous on its face, but it looked so real that had he not been talking about those things and instead talking about something completely different, a lot more people would have bought it. What are we gonna do? And in about 30 seconds, I want you to solve this problem for me.

What are we gonna do to arm people with the knowledge that they need? So Ben, first of all, that's a big problem, obviously. I don't have a magic solution for how synthetic video is going to be moderated properly in the way that it can spread very easily. But I do have a huge call to arms when it comes down to every technology company. Well, you got 15 seconds. I just really want them to come through with a

fingerprint on synthetic video for us to understand what we're playing with. Because if it doesn't happen now, it's never going to happen. I love that you did that in 10 seconds. Thank you very much, my friend. We'll talk to you soon. Take care, Ben. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney Show. And in my mind, I haven't been to Texas in a very long time, but in my mind, that's sort of like where freedom reigns, like personal freedom, individual freedom. You hear all these stories of people and companies abandoning California with its overregulation

and its high taxation and moving everything, lock, stock and barrel into Texas where they can, they are free to build the company they want and live the life that they want. And so when I read this morning that there's a Texas bill on the verge of becoming law that would require labels on packaged foods from Skittles to Mountain Dew to M&Ms to Doritos that would warn about ingredients that are quote, not recommended for human

consumption. I've struggled to understand why that's happening in Texas. But then I remember that Donald Trump has as his as his head of the Department of Health and Human Services, a guy who's on, he's there to make America healthy again in, in, in Mr. Kennedy. And so I got to wonder whether that has something to do with that. And it's, it's, oh, all right. We've got, well, here joining us, we've got Sylvain Charleboix. Oh wait, what? Oh shoot, I'm on the wrong story. God, I'm on the wrong story, guys. We'll talk about that after.

Instead, let's pivot back to what we were supposed to do. Let's get that in the way back machine to two minutes ago before I was incompetent. And let's welcome Alan Cross, the host of the ongoing history of new music. Alan, I apologize. I'm sorry, I read ahead. That's okay.

I was prepared to talk about the reels, but you want to move on to something else? That's fine. I apologize, my friend. No, let's go into the health of live touring music because back after the pandemic, we were living in a world where people just could not get, wait to get out and experience live music

and go to festivals. And now we're seeing that the health of that entire industry may not be as healthy as we expected. We're not really sure we're getting mixed signals right now because people are not buying tickets the way they used to in the last couple of years. If we look at, for example, Beyonce's current tour, she had like 3,500 tickets available for opening night in Los Angeles and there were other places across the country as part of the itinerary where there were still tickets available within

days or even weeks before everything was supposed to start. Meanwhile, we have Live Nation, the biggest promoter in the world telling us that they have sold more tickets for 2025 than they did in all of 2019, which was the last big year before the pandemic. So we're not really sure exactly what's going on or who's spinning what, but- Well, they, and Alan, they could, they could be selling more tickets to more, fewer tickets, like overall more tickets, but per per they can have so many events that they're hosting or putting on that that it's fewer tickets per event. Right. So it may be just a matter of math. Yeah. You know, for example, live nation has this thing that they do every year, where they sell $30 concert tickets to a variety of shows at their amphitheaters

across North America. And they traditionally do very well for that. And they make their money back on food and beverage, on parking and everything else because they own the venue. So that could be part of it. The other thing that I'm thinking about though, and this is anecdotally, people are coming up to me and saying, I can't afford to go to shows anymore.

I just don't have any money in the budget anymore. Yeah, that was the next question I was gonna have. I mean, a lot of people today, what they used to be able to afford, they're nice to haves. And now they can't afford their nice to haves, they're focused entirely on their must haves. Right, and concert tickets, I think are one of them. And it's especially bad for mid-level and emerging artists

because if you're gonna spend money on a concert, you're gonna go see a big star. And that's extremely expensive by the time you buy the ticket, go to the show, buy the merch and so on. The Taylor Swift, the Taylor Swift of the world. Yes, and she, well, even now, she's not on tour, but Beyonce is, and Beyonce became like a number two, number three to Taylor Swift,

and she's not selling all her tickets. So the other problem too is with small and medium venues. Young people aren't going to shows the way we used to in our day. Yeah. A lot of them missed out on that rite of passage because of COVID. They never got into the habit of going to shows. Those who do go to shows don't drink. Right. And that's a real problem. Yeah. Because what they're, you know, usually with these, a lot of these shows, they, the band will get the door, the ticket price,

and then the venue will get the bar. And that's proving to be a real problem. All of these people, fewer people standing around, not drinking. Yeah. But Alan, does it have something to do as well with, have we gotten to a place where the expectations of say the musicians about becoming Matt, like making tens upon tens of millions of dollars, maybe it's time to right size that expectation that you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, ship. Yeah, that ship sale long ago. And, you know, the musicians that I talked to are, you know, they're struggling. There was a

mental health survey of Canadian music industry players that came out earlier this year. It's the preliminary part of this survey that will be released in full in January. And a striking number, I think it was 52%, said that, you know, I'm a musician and life's just not worth living. I mean, it's really dire,

because a lot of these upcoming musicians, and even medium level musicians have to take day jobs to finance musical aspirations. And if you're touring or going out at night late, bad hours, bad food, bad everything, and then you've got to be at work in the morning, it's a terrible situation. So if you talk to a lot of, again, emerging and mid-level musicians, they're really struggling. They're having a hard time because they have to tour, they have to play live because that's the only way that they make any meaningful money. But now they're not even making meaningful

money from that. Yeah. And what do you make then of the story, which I'm sure you've heard, of All-American Rejects going on a tour of bowling alleys and people's backyards and really creating viral moments about, in these house parties that they're hosting, bringing people back to the early 2000s and allowing them to sort of be showered in nostalgia. And these guys are really, it looks like they're winning with this strategy.

Yeah, it's, you're winning with this strategy. Yeah, it's, you know, if you're in a punk band, you played a lot of legions, you played a lot of parties, you played a lot of backyard. And that was one way to create word of mouth for what you were doing. And if it works and people are willing to foot the bill for whatever it is that you're doing, absolutely.

I think it's fantastic. But, you know, a band like All American Rejects would have been playing larger festivals and larger shows not that long ago. So this is a good PR strategy. It's a good career strategy. How sustainable is it? I don't know, talk to me in October or November.

Now, so back to the larger question, is this concerning trend? Is this an indicator of the overall health of the music industry right now? Or is it is it something where the jury's still out? Well, it's not looking good right now. However, people do recognize that there is a problem It'll be interesting to see what the the new liberal government does when it comes to funding the arts in the UK For example, what they're doing is they're putting a one pound fee, a one pound levy

on the price of a concert ticket for shows at venues of 5,000 people or more. So bigger shows. Yes. One pound, that's one quid, nothing massive. And that money is being funneled back into the ecosystem to help keep small venues alive. So far they've raised about 500,000 pounds, it's early.

Everybody seems to be on board with this, this idea of keeping the farm system, the work talent develops. That actually, like the way, when you describe it like that as keeping the farm system alive, it's actually quite brilliant, it makes a lot of sense. Well, Live Nation is doing the same sort of thing in Canada and the United States. They're buying up some small places. You know, they've, for example, in Ottawa, they recently bought an old chapters

bookstore downtown and they're turning it into their version of history, which we have here. Wow. It's about 1100, about 1100 capacity. They have key to Bala. They have the opera house. They have a number of small places. Again, Live Nation needs to build acts so they can funnel them and develop them and mature them so they can go on to play the amphitheaters and festivals that they promote.

Alan Cross, thank you so much for being here. I would have loved to have asked you if you eat Doritos and Skittles and whether you think that they are suitable for human consumption, but we'll get to that another day. I am an M&M person. Thank you, Alan. All the best, looking forward to get to that another day. I am an M&M person. Thank you Alan All the best looking forward talking to you again soon. Okay. Bye

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