The Ben Mulroney Show - Algoma misery/Are immigration issues in the UK a window into Canada's future?

Episode Date: December 2, 2025

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Welcome to the Ben Mulruni show on this 2nd of December 2020. Thank you so much for joining us. It's going to be a great. We're already in the middle of a great week, and let's keep that train going. It's a great week personally, but not a great week for the news, especially if you're in Sioux-Saint-Marie and you work at Algoma Steel. The news is that Algoma Steel has issued 1,000 layoff notices, effective March 23rd, 2026. As it closes its blast furnace and coke-making operations and transitions to an 11,000. electric arc furnace. We'll dive into what that means in just a few minutes, but let's listen

to the mayor of Matthew Shoemaker about exactly what this means. It's, you know, more than one percent of the population that's losing their employment. It's about three percent of the active workforce. So it is a massive number of job impacts for a community of our size. It's also a company that's frankly sustained our economy for 126 years. So it's, you know, something that hurts. So it's been in the community for 126 years. The company says the shift is necessary due to the U.S. steel tariffs that have fundamentally altered competitiveness in the market.

And the union representing the Algoma Steel Workers reports 900 layoff notices among United Steelworkers Local 2551, with uncertainty about final numbers due to possible list errors, job cuts have been expected as part of this furnace transition. But important in this conversation is that Algoma recently received $500 million in government loans to help offset the tariff impacts. And so you've got to wonder, what impact did these loans, have, and it's not like they're leaving to go somewhere else. Algoma's not decamping to the United States.

They're not saying, they're not taking this money and saying, yeah, it's been fun, Canada. Thank you so much. But we are taking Donald Trump up on his offer, and we are building a factory south of the border. That's not happening. They're just laying people off. We've got some commentary here by D.T. Cochran, the senior economist, at the Canadian Labor Congress. Let's listen to him. He talked about the loan from the government. Algoma Steel received a very cheap loan agreement from the Canadian government just two months ago.

400 million. 400 million plus another 100 million from the Ontario government. And there were no clear job conditions attached to that. That is a massive failure on the part of the government that allowed this to happen, and it needs to revisit that plan to try to use these sorts of loans as the means to support the industry. It's clearly inadequate, and it's not what's going to keep these jobs. And look, this is, I still don't know that we've got clarity on the Stalantus contracts. You'll remember Stalantis got a ton of money from the federal government, only to, again, as I said, cut and run to the United States and a lot of, uh, A lot of politicians in Ottawa want to read the fine print of that contract because, as I said, just a few short weeks ago, one of two things happened on that front.

Either Stalantis lived up to their contract and is leaving, which means the contract was poorly written and didn't take into account the fact that they could leave, even if they took our money, in which case the government needs to be held to account. or they broke the contract, in which case the federal government needs to go after Stalantis for every penny that they are due in order to make whole those employees who lost their jobs and that town that has been hollowed out. So again, I don't believe that we've gotten to the bottom of that yet, but if you're telling me that this is a second example

of potentially a poorly written contract that did not take into account, we're going to give you money, but if we give you this money, you cannot be laying people off, and certainly not to the tune of a thousand people. That speaks to, I think, government carelessness, potentially. Again, I'm not prepared to say that yet, but that should be on people's radar as we keep an eye on this story. You know, one thing that I do want to say is I heard a lot of talk about these sorts of contracts, these loans. And these loans are defensive in their objectives. It's not money to help

build and to help grow. It's to help protect against negative headwinds coming from the United States. That's not a plan to secure our future. That's not a plan to make tomorrow better than today. That's a plan to make sure that we don't get subsumed by an expansionist American president who's coming for our lunch money. And so, I mean, the smart money would be on getting ahead of things like this and getting a deal with the Americans. And, you know, that hasn't happened yet. We were supposed to have one months ago. And that hasn't happened. I'm not quite sure why. I'm sure in the minds of the negotiators in Washington and in Ottawa, there's a good reason for it.

But it has not yet happened. I think the argument is we'd rather no deal than a bad deal. But a no deal gives us this. No deal puts us on our back feet, puts us on our heels, and puts us in a defensive position. All we can do is stave off a worst case scenario. I don't know by you. this feels like a worst-case scenario to me. This doesn't feel like we gained anything.

Now, someone could say, well, we're not for that $500 million. Maybe more jobs would have been lost. But again, that's not building. That's the opposite. Let's listen to the opposition leader, Pierre Poliev, on the state of play with Algoma. Today, Algoma announced it's laying off

a thousand steel workers, nearly a third. of its workforce in the Sioux. Our thoughts are with them. The Prime Minister looked them in the eye and promised he would protect their jobs, that he would negotiate a win, and I quote, have a deal by July 21st, but it was a bait and switch that is costing people their livelihoods.

On top of that, liberals are hammering this steel mill with a higher industrial carbon tax. Isn't it bad enough that the Prime Minister broke his promise on trade? Why is he going ahead with an industrial carbon tax that will kill even more steel jobs? Okay, well, that is certainly a perspective that is far more partisan, the one that I just gave you. But that's his job.

That's Pierre Pollyev's job for sure. Yeah, look, I don't have all the details yet. I haven't read the fine print. And look, we were just talking about Stalantis. The Stalantis folks were supposed to show up at a committee hearing in Ottawa, and they skipped out on the hearing. The MPs were outraged. So something doesn't smell right there. But, yeah, it's hard.

to argue with Pierre Poliev, you know, you can put the anger aside, but people get mad at me when I get angry on this show. And frankly, there's certain things that should anger us. And I don't think there's anything wrong with expressing that anger every now and then, that frustration. And when we were promised that an election of Mark Carney would yield certain results and those results have yet to materialize. And part of those results was speed. We were promised speed in action. We were promised lightning. speed in building homes, lightning speed and building our economy, lightning speed and getting things done. And on this front, those things have not been done. And in the interim, jobs have

been lost. I don't think it's unreasonable for some people to get angry and get upset. I promise you, the people who just lost their jobs, their Algoma Steel jobs, are probably pretty angry today. And so I don't think there's anything rage baity to use the word of the year, which we'll be talking about at the end of this hour. There's a rage baity about acknowledging anger in a situation like this. And I think it is incumbent upon the government to give us some answers. Speaking of which, here is a member of the government, Melanie Jolie, giving her opinion on the Algoma situation.

Obviously, our thoughts are with the workers affected by the unjustified and unjustifiable tariffs imposed by the White House and will continue to work with them as Algoma Steel is going through a difficult situation. say the least. Mr. Speaker, my team and I have been in contact with Algoma's leadership team. We absolutely have every confidence in the Algoma workers as they're going through this hardship, and we will make sure that we support them as they're developing new products and also accessing new markets. We'll fight for these jobs. You know, words are cold comfort to people who lost their jobs before Christmas. Up next,

could the UK's immigration woes be a look into Carney's future? That's next on the Ben Mulroney show. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show. And as a reminder, you can find the Ben Mulroney show on Spotify, on Apple Music, on Amazon music, as well as on YouTube, Instagram, and Twitter. So thank you very much for joining us wherever we may find you. You know, during the pandemic, we used to say that what was happening in Europe was precursor for what was happening in Canada and in North America tended to happen there first

and then a few days, a few weeks later, we could expect a similar surge or a downturn in COVID. And I've got to wonder whether what is happening in the UK, in terms of on the immigration file, is similar. Are we witnessing our future in the UK right now? They are they have issues with immigration, illegal and legal, as well as migrants, as well as violence in their streets. Are those two things linked? I'll leave that to you to decide. But let's dive into what is happening in the UK. And let's see if we can figure out if there are any lessons for us to glean here in North America.

So in 2024, nearly a million people immigrated to the UK. That was about 766,000 were non-EU. nationals. And there were about 40,000 we're called small boat arrivals so far in 2025. That's up 17 percent from the same period in 2024. And you'll remember that when Sir Kier

Starmer was elected as Prime Minister, he promised to smash the gangs, and it followed predecessor Rishi Sunak's pledge to stop the boat. So clearly, the boat thing hasn't stopped. So you got all these new people coming in.

36,000 asylum seekers in hotels. you know, asylum hotels, ring a bell. That was as of September 2025. And the cost per day of this is about 5.7 million pounds per day. That's about $10.5 million Canadian per day. That's money that goes directly to asylum seekers. As of June 2025, about 1.5 million foreign nationals were claiming what's called the Universal Credit in Britain. which represents 16.5% of all universal credit claimants.

Let's listen to some audio of Reform UK councillor, Layla Cunningham. Talk about how Britons are fed up. It just, I think people in this country feel that we're funding everything and everyone, except the British people who pay for it. The NHS surcharge is so low for foreigners. It doesn't, you know, and we're paying to subsidize their NHS access. And that's the problem, is that Westminster has abandoned the principle that the British state should serve British citizens first. And that's what people I feel.

They don't feel they're prioritized. They're working harder and harder. Getting hammered with tax rises, told the audacity of Rachel Reeves to say, you know, everyone has to do their bit. But the government never does their bit. If you're listening in the city of Toronto, then that woman could be talking about taxpayers in Toronto, municipally. because we talk about that on this show all the time, that taxpayers in the city of Toronto feel like their taxes are going up and the reason that they're not feeling a commensurate rise in their services

is because so much of that money is going to deal with the rise in population due to asylum claimants, refugees, and new Canadians. And again, I'm not making a value judgment here. I'm not saying something is right or wrong. I'm trying to have a measured conversation, but what we're seeing there, what they're saying, and what we are experiencing here, and sort of a point of of order that the reform party in the UK founded by Nigel Farage

was supposed to be a spent force in UK politics. Nigel Farage had a little bit of a blip in a rise maybe 10, 15 years ago. And then he sort of settled into into the fringe, more or less. And he hung around and it looked like he was starting a new career as a television. television pundit. But then this happened, this crisis of migration and the impact that it's having on social services on the safety of Britons in the streets. And we're going to talk about that safety in just a moment. And what has happened is the reform party of the UK is now the dominant party in the polls. It's looking like if an election were called today, they would they would

dominate a super majority as far as, I think that's what I read. recently, and if not a super majority, certainly a clear majority in the House of Commons. That wasn't supposed to happen. This goes back to what I was saying a segment ago, that this rise of right-wing politicians does not happen by accident, and it certainly doesn't happen in a vacuum. It happens as a reaction to certain things. It happens as a reaction to progressives, allowing their ideology to cloud their judgment, narrow their field of vision, and look at the social engineering that they want to see, the result that they want,

damn the consequences. And consequently, you have a guy like Nigel Farage who could be the next prime minister of the UK. And if he wins, in his acceptance speech, he should thank the left because they got him elected. And so here's the fear. There's a leaked home office document. The home office, it's sort of the internal,

the ministry of of the internal politics, if you will. The document is called absconderpool. It reportedly lists over 50,000 migrants whose whereabouts are unknown as of October 2025. And of that group, over 700 are foreign offenders, people who were previously in prison or detention. And you'll remember that we talk about that on this show,

that we have so many people who are not citizens of this country who commit crimes in Canada. And it looks like our justice system is doing everything to keep them here. That the very nature, if you commit a crime and you're not a citizen, that is immediately cause to be sent back to wherever you came from. And we're doing the exact opposite here, bending over backwards, to excuse away that behavior so that they can stay. stay here. All right? If you are a taxpayer, that is going to rub you the wrong way. If you are a victim of one of those crimes, it is going to rub you the wrong way. And unfortunately,

it's also going to have the unintended consequence of making you feel a certain way about new Canadians. All right? And as I said, we had a system of immigration in this country that everyone could get behind. It is not the case anymore. With stories like those, we have people who are doubting the very positive nature of immigration in Canada today. Let's listen to a 78-year-old veteran who is not happy because his daughters are terrified to walk the streets of the UK. I've got two daughters, and they've both been attacked, one on a tube train and the other on the streets in Clapham.

They're not stupid girls. They're from King's College. They're university graduates, but they're still frightened to death of walking the streets alone at any time during the day in London. And people like Sadiqom, the mayor, and the government are denying it. What planets are they on? Because it's certainly not on the same planet I'm on. Again, a parallel to Canada. The people on the streets are saying that things are wrong and progressive politicians in our cities are telling us there's nothing to see here.

we follow the science. Everything is fine. You're a rage baiter. Shame on you. And I'm telling you, the reaction is not going to be what the left wants. It's probably not going to be with the right wants either. And I'll give you an example. In Ireland, let's listen to, well, there's a new movement. It's the new Republican movement. Let's hear it from their own lips. We are proud men of Ireland. We are patriots. Your policies and decision make in regards to flooding our communities with undocumented military Asian men, not acceptable. We will not sit back any longer and watch our culture and religion destroyed by the people we put in power. The new Republican movement will take immediate action against anyone who

threatens our ways of life and the safety of our women and children. We have your addresses and known your movements. Every one of you are legitimate targets as of today. It's a video that looks like a terrorist group. It looks like the new IRA. And listen, we've seen the Irish. and what they're capable of doing if they feel that they're on the right side of an issue. They will take up arms. And I'm not justifying it at all by any stretch of the imagination.

What I'm saying is this is where we're at and we can pivot. We can change. We have a chance here. If we believe that what we're seeing across the pond is our future, we should take note and take heed and change direction

so that we can restore what we used to have. Up next, is it really that bad in the UK or has social media taken over the story? Let's ring up a friend in Britain and find out. The holiday season is full of choices. Cranberry sauce or gravy, red wrapping paper or green. Squeeze your child into last year's coat or layer them up.

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Because at Edmonton, Cabota, they don't just sell machines. They stand behind the people who run them. We are Cabota. You are our family. Welcome back to the Ben Mulrooney show. Before the break, we were looking to the UK and asking ourselves, is that a window into the future of? this country. There were a number of key points that I brought up that I thought were

very similar to issues that we are dealing with in Canada. Some of the protests and complaints from some of the people sounded an awful lot like things that you might hear on the streets here in Toronto. And so let's put it to our next guest who's got a better view of the UK than I. Please welcome Andrew Percy, Vice President Crestview Strategies and co-host of Kraft Politics Podcast. Andrew, welcome to the Ben Mulroney Show. Great to be on. Nice to be with you. So, yeah, before the break, we were talking about the state of play as it relates to immigration, both legal and illegal and the knock-on effects. The pressures put on the NHS, your health care service, as well as sort of the tax base and the services that are being provided to Britons and the safety that people feel in the streets.

And my question for you is the view that we have from here, is that a view seen through the augmented rate? bait of social media, or is it a reflection of reality? No, look, I think it is a reflection of, look, there's truth in everything, and there's also some things that you see online. A lot of it is obviously overhyped. But the backdrop to all of this is that, you know, a bit like Canada, for decades, the UK had a relatively controlled, consistent number of immigrants coming into the country every year, new migrants. And then in the last few years, that has kind of exploded. And indeed, we've had like millions of people come in a very short period of time

and that has had knock on impacts on housing on people's access to public services also just on the perception of what people feel about their community and all of this has happened with a lot of the public not feeling really that they've been consulted so this has been kind of festering away for some time now and then you add in also the context of this illegal migration through these small boats coming from France

which has you know it's constantly in the news, the migrants having to be put up in, you know, hotels. The headlines write themselves, obviously we have a very active newspaper sector in the UK, so, you know, which is still a big thing here. You know, so all this anger that has been around migrant hotels being put into, you know, not just big cities, but now even into smaller town. Yeah. Has just resulted in this big concern around immigration and broader debate, actually,

around the future of the country. Yeah. Well, it seems to me that there are two factors. that make the situation both more different but also could lead to more extreme results in the UK than in Canada. One is the very particular experience that you have with the grooming gangs, which I'd love for you to let our audience know about who may not be familiar with it. But the second thing that I think is important to note is unlike Canada, Well, listen, while the U.K. is, you know, was the colonial power in the world,

Britons are actually indigenous to Britain. There is a claim of indigenity of the people of Britain that we can't make here. As a Canadian, I cannot make. I don't have that leg to stand on here. And so there are Britons who can say, my family has been here for centuries and eons and millennia. is my home. And I wonder, I wonder what you think of both those points. Yeah, I mean, I think that's true. Although we still spend a lot of our time arguing within ourselves about whether we're Celts, whether we're Saxons, who's a Viking, and all the rest

of it. But I think the, you know, the, I think that the, that's certainly true. Although what I would say is that if you look at polling in Europe, if you consider the UK part of Europe, which we kind of do some of the time, the UK has always been the country in Europe that has had the most positive view of immigration. Because, you know, the UK, immigration to the UK is not a new thing. It's been happening, you could argue, for, you know, for centuries, but certainly for decades, right, certainly post-war. And the UK public generally had a very positive view of migration

because it was limited numbers. You know, focus was put on integration. I think some of the things we were maybe told or what people were told was the truth about integration have now been seen to be untrue. because we have in a number of our cities quite segregated communities. Add into that the big wave of migration, that's come in the last five to ten years,

and indeed even before them, but a lot of that was driven from the EU. People have seen their communities change very significantly. So, you know, people who don't have a racist bone in their body, it's not about race, it's not about that, suddenly see that the community they live in is very different to what it was, you know, 10 years ago, let alone 15 or 10, in some cases, five.

And that is making people think, well, actually, what is Britain going to become? What is Britain? And maybe that's a link to that indigeneity piece as well, about the perception of what Britain has been for a, you know, or the constituent parts of Britain have been for a thousand years or whatever. I think a lot of that sits behind it, but I think primarily it's this very large numbers coming in a very short period of time

without really, and what people can clearly see, there isn't integration happening in some communities. And there's a pushback against that, which is why the Reform Party here is now doing so well. And see, that's what I want to talk about. Because, you know, when I hear everyday Britons say, you know, I'm always being told that what I'm seeing with my own eyes is not happening. I'm being told there's no problem. Everything's okay. There's not just keep on and carry on.

That that causes frustration. And that causes, like I said, a rise, a resurgence in the Reform Party, which you'll forgive me if I'm getting this wrong. But a few years ago, they were almost like an electoral afterthought. And there's new life that's been blown into this vehicle, Nigel Farage's vehicle, that I don't think a lot of people saw coming a few years ago. Yes, I think that's true. Look, there are nasty, unpleasant, deeply racist people in Britain, as there are in every country. Yes. Those are a very, very small percentage of the public.

But a larger portion of the public, which has genuinely concerns around immigration, has been told for a very long time now, is that if they express any concern around the subject of immigration, they are a part of that group. They're far right there. And they're not at all, right? And the public have finally, I think a lot of the public have said,

no, we're not going to stand for that anymore. You're not going to be able to say to us because we have some concerns about this, which are not born out of race, race at all. We're not going to accept this any longer. And I think the reform have certainly tapped into that. You mentioned earlier the grooming gang issue, of course. And that was a thing which the Reform Party has campaigned on significantly here as well. Because, you know, we've had a number of government-initiated reviews in the UK in which, you know, it has, you know,

which have concluded that where you had these grooming gangs, so these rape gangs in parts of the UK, where it looks like race was, or religion was a part of the, of the makeup of those gangs, people in authority were not prepared to speak about that. In fact, there was an active campaign to prevent that in many communities. And these young, largely white working class girls were the victims of that and were ignored. And, you know, even when concerns were raised by some of the people representing these groups, they were put away and told that, you know, we mustn't go near this because it will affect community cohesion. Yeah.

And that has obviously all blown up again in the last year or so, and which the Reform Party, which is, you know, I think they're a more populist party, so they're less likely to be cowed by, you know, some of the, you know, emotional response you get for even raising some of these issues from certain parts of society. And that is why I think a lot of Brits are looking at them and saying,

well, you know, look, I used to be a conservative MP, so this is hard for me to say, because it's my own party, which is suffering as well. There's the two main parties they're looking at and saying, you guys did this to us. You guys brought in mass immigration without our consent. And then also when we tried to talk about it, people in both parties actually told us we weren't allowed to say or think some of these things or question some of this. And that's why we've got reform on 32% and the former government tomorrow, if the polls are correct.

And Andrew, that's why we want to highlight it today because, you know, Canada can look to the UK and see, you know, if the powers that be do not recognize that there is an issue and if they don't stop demonizing those who bring up very fair points, those people will find a home with a party, with a leader, with a voice that is not what anybody wants today. And not to say that Nigel Farage is necessarily an entirely bad person or anything like that, but the solution could have been found in the Conservative Party that feels like the train has left the station in the UK on that front.

And therefore, my concern is if the powers that be do not recognize that they are quite literally marginalizing a lot of people, we could have a completely different political dynamic in Canada as you do in the UK. Andrew Percy, thank you so much for joining us. I really

appreciate it. Pleasure. Anytime. There are streaming services, and then there's Stack TV. What you want, when you want it. Action, comedy, drama, reality, all when you want it. Dive into Rick and Morty's latest season. Cast off with new seasons of Survivor and the Curse of Oak Island. Or stream binge-worthy gems like the paper and all her fault. All when you want it.

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