The Ben Mulroney Show - Amber alert mishandled, ends in tragedy

Episode Date: October 22, 2025

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Get full-sized favorites and must-have minis bundled for more value. Shop before they're gone. In-store online at Sephora.ca. At Desjardin, we speak business. We speak equipment modernization. We're fluent in data digitization and expansion into foreign markets. And we can talk all day about streamlining manufacturing processes. Because at Desjardin business, we speak the same language you do. Business. So join the more than 400,000 Canadian entrepreneurs who already count on us and contact Desjardin today. We'd love to talk business. October 22nd. Thank you so much for a start. No, Tuesday. No, it's Wednesday. It's Wednesday. I almost missed a hit on the radio in Calgary this morning because I forgot it was Wednesday.

And then here I am coming on. The first piece of information I give the listeners of the Ben Mulroney show was a lie. It was a lie. Can we just rewind? Welcome to the show. It's Wednesday, October 22nd. There you go. Nailed it. And I'm out. And I'm out of here. It's a George Costanza. Leave on a high note. Yes, thank you so much for being here today. I'm going to tell you about. my commute into the show a little bit later because I believe

that there are lessons for all of us much like Justin Trudeau when something bad happens to me that I caused I turn into a teachable moment for all of us. Sorry, I've got a problem

with my computer here. There we go, bingo bingo. Oh no, we'll start with this right now. So here's my problem with the city of Toronto. The stuff that should be a layup, the easy stuff, we just make so, so complicated. It typically

takes me 11 minutes to get to the office. I know that because anytime I get in the car in this in this city, I use Ways, even though I know where I'm going. Why do I use Ways? Because Ways knows where the streets are closed and Ways knows where the traffic is. And I don't know every, on any given day, this city will just drop down some pylons and leave them there for six months. And that's, then there you go. And so today I'm on my way and it doesn't say there's any traffic, But does it say it's going to take longer. It's getting closer and closer to the office. The number isn't going down.

Like, I'm three blocks away, and it still says I'm 12 minutes away. That doesn't make any sense. Well, it's because there's some sort of, because of the rebuild of the gardener, there's some sort of work that's happening close to the gardener. And they've closed down a lane of traffic. Now, you would think that for an arterial road, like the gardener, we would move as quickly as possible to open it up, open up this access point to the gardener.

No, no, no, no, not in Toronto. In Toronto, the policy is the timeline that they're working on is we're going to take as long as we F and take. And not for nothing, but I also noticed years and years and years ago that we've got this arterial road called the gardener that we've had for, let's call it 70 years, right? 70 years unchanged. Now we're rebuilding it, but unchanged.

And what have we done as a city? We have added tens of thousands of condo units within a stone's throw spitting distance from the access points to that arterial road. And we haven't changed the access points. So we were a city of, call it, I don't know, 800,000 probably when the gardener was built. now we're closer to 3-4 million and there's the access points

to get on to the Gardner are exactly the same because you know because Toronto because we don't plan because we don't see in the future what did Bill Clinton say leadership is peering around

the corner of history just a little bit you don't have to have that you don't have to peer that far to see that we have set ourselves up for deep deep frustration Speaking of deep, deep, deep, deep frustration. We told you a few weeks ago that the Eggleton LRT was in its, it was in the, like, it was in the final stages before it was going to get approved.

And all they had to do, all they had to do was run this thing with no problems for 30 days straight, every single day. And if they could do that, then check a few more boxes and you're done. Bob's your uncle and everybody is rolling on the cross-town LRT that has taken longer to build than the pyramids of Giza. Well, it's been delayed again.

Por quah, you ask? Two trains collided into train yard. Final test put on pause. I don't need to read the story. There's a whole story written about this. I don't need to. Neither do you. You now know the whole story.

So what that means is you've got to go back to the beginning. back to the beginning and start the clock again 30 days of perfect train running before it'll open to the public. So thank you very much. Toronto's, Toronto really has got a Toronto. So yesterday, yes, sir. Yes, I have to do a quick break in here because we're going to talk about the Amber Alert, right? Yeah. But I've just been notified and I've just seen this that there is breaking news. The man involved in the Amber Alert that we're going to talk about right now and explain the situation is dead after an altercation

with police in Niagara Falls. He'd been wanted. He had a manhunt for him. And they didn't know where he was. They found him in Niagara Falls and we don't know a lot of the details about yet, but it ended with that. Well, the whole... I'm sorry, anytime there's a loss of life, it's not a

good story to report. But this whole story, yeah, listen, you might be like me yesterday. I was doing something in my house and I picked up my phone and I saw that big text right on the screen for an Amber Alert, and I did what most people do. I put my phone down, and I went on with my life.

I pay attention to Amber Alerts when I'm out and about in the community. Like when I see an Amber Alert and I'm walking on the street, I got my eyes and my ears open, because who knows? I might see something, so I might have to say something. But when I'm at home, I don't pay attention.

And so I punted the ball until this morning. And when I came in, this was just a confusing story. It was so, So, let's try to get through it because we don't have a ton of time. Okay. So let's try to get through it quickly, though. Yeah.

So, okay, so there was a victim. A woman was found with gunshot wounds in Brampton at 2 p.m., pronounced dead at the scene. At 5 p.m., an amber alert was issued. Nothing about the shooting was mentioned. The public was told the bare minimum suspect and car information. That was it. And the suspect was the now deceased Anthony DeSheper. Described as a white male 5, 975 pounds, thin billed, short brown,

hair, hazel eyes, clean, shaven. Now, why was there an amber alert when what we've just described was a dead adult? Well, because there was a child involved. One-year-old daughter, Skyla Rose DeSheper, was with him. But eventually, the Amber Alert was rescinded when the child was found. However, the child was dropped off at a family member's house. However, the story took a turn because, as we just said, DeSheper was considered armed and dangerous. But we didn't know that. No, we didn't, because all we knew was he was a white male, five-nine. Because for the purposes of an amber alert, right? You got to check boxes with the amber alert.

One of the box, the focus is the kid, right? Yeah. Focus is the kid. But we seem to have sort of shoehorned things into amber alerts that it wasn't intended for. And so now we're fine. Now, I say now, yesterday in the now, we find out that the Shephyr is considered armed and dangerous. He was believed to be in the Crystal Beach area of Fort Erie.

Residents were advised to shelter in place and lock the doors. I mean, this is what you say when there's like a terrorist attack. Like stay indoors, locked a doors, don't open the doors for anybody. If that were me, it would have been terrified. Now, what didn't they tell people? What I've now said to you is all the information pretty much that was given to residents. Kid disappeared. Here's what the guy looked like.

oh, by the way, lock your doors and don't answer the doors. But we had his name and the media, it didn't take much to just Google the guy. Yeah. To find out a little bit about him. And then media started asking and asked the Peel Police about it. Yeah, they said, why are there no details on this guy's background?

We don't, we believe this to be an isolated incident at this point, but out of caution that they're doing that. Isolated, however, this man has been arrested for firearms related offenses before. October 2023, Waterloo Police arrested him after he'd been on the run for four weeks in relation to a shooting here in Brampton.

So how dangerous do you perceive this person to be? I mean, he's been involved in shootings before. Obviously, given what's happened here, it's quite alarming, but I don't have any details on this background. So I can't even. So they don't release information on how dangerous he is, yet it's a case of intimate partner. That's what they admit. But they say we don't have any information on him at all.

Yeah. So here's the takeaway. The system needs an overhaul. It was designed to function even when the cell networks were congested. There was no internet connection, ensuring alerts can get through during widespread emergencies. So no pictures, character limit, no ability to use geographic targeting. So we had no idea that, A, he was a fugitive. In 2023, he was caught after being on the run for four weeks after a shooting in Brampton.

And guess what? He was out on? Oh, does it start with a B? There's an A in there. An eye. Give me an eye. And the magic letter L. Look, the issue is misuse.

It's more often than not used for domestic situations. Public tends to ignore it. There are, there's too many amberolers, I'm guessing, these days. Anyway, I'm glad the child was found. I'm sad the mom passed away. And this gentleman, gentleman, this, it's a whole thing's a tragedy. All right, when we come back, more proof that Toronto is the city that fun hates. Alert.

Come on back Welcome back. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show. And Dave, that song, every time you play it, I just wish we could listen to the whole thing. It's such a great song. I love this song so much. It makes me...

It's the 80s. It gets into your bones. Anyway, welcome back to the show. We're talking World Series. I mean, the World Series is going to populate almost every conversation. have between now and the inevitable day that the Blue Jays win their third world series. Lowest available price of a ticket for game one on Ticketmaster is currently listed

at around $1,764. Come on. Many other resales on various platforms ranging from 1,000 to 10K depending on the game and the seat location. We got it. We're going to file this story under, I was today years old when I learned this. I just assumed that when you're at a game in your hometown and an opponent hits a home run and you catch that home run that it was traditional and nay, expected that you show your allegiance to your team by returning. the ball to the arena of play. You just throw it back on the field.

Like that's, I've seen it happen a million times in other stadiums around North America. Just thought that's what would happen. Well, our next guest found himself in exactly that position. But what happened after he did what I think almost everyone would do, I think he got a reaction that I would have surprised almost everybody listening right now. Please welcome to the show. Ned Boland, Ned, welcome. Hey, how they're going, buddy?

All right, so I'm good. I'm good. And your story, it just had so many twists and turns to your story. So just set the stage for us. Where were your tickets? Where were your seats? Section 146, row three, just to the left of the Jay's bullpen in the outfield. Gotcha.

Okay, so, and there you go. And so you see the home run coming, right? Yeah, I didn't move. You didn't move. So, yeah, so you hear the crack of the bad. Julio Rodriguez. You're the crack of the bat, and you can see it coming at you. Like, oh, I'm going to catch this.

Yeah, it's just, it really, it's really just tracked. And it all happens very fast. Yeah. And particularly when you got a few beers in you. And then, uh, yeah, really just got me right in my palm. Don't apologize. Don't do, don't even make excuses. You got beers in you.

They sell beer. Beer's legal. You know, it's all, it's all part of the experience. But now you've got the ball in your hand. And that's not the home run you want to catch. That's not a Blue Jays home run. that's not the home run that sends them to the World Series. In fact, that home run could prevent them from going to the World Series.

So everyone around you, what are they telling you? Oh, I just had to kill the Juju. So they're all yelling at me to throw it back. Right. Yeah, I really meet him myself. I kind of blacked out. I don't even know where the ball is on the field. And, you know, next thing you know, I got fans coming up to me being like, hey, they're going to boot you.

I'm like, I'm not leaving. No way. Okay, so yeah. So people are telling you, now that you've done it, that you could be thrown out. So then, what, security comes to you? Yeah, a couple of fans tried to help me out. I didn't believe him.

I'm like, I'm not going anywhere. Yeah, there's no way. You're thinking there's no way because this is a, it's a, it's a, I'm not wrong to think this is a tradition in sport, right? I mean, when I watch Sports Center and I see games down in the States, my fans throw balls back all the time. Yeah. So, yeah, it was, you know, it was something I had to do, and then, yeah, security came up. And what did they say to you? Yeah.

They're like, we need to come up the stairs and talk to us. And I know, I'm not coming. And then a little bit back and forth, he, I wasn't moving. So he went up to talk to the cops who were standing at the top of stairs. There's cops waiting for you. Yeah, but they want another to do with it. These guys are, they're great. They're like, man, we know this sucks, but policy is policy.

I mean, those policy is brutal. And then my girlfriend, she jumps in, so I was to convince them has no luck there she comes back down and she's like yeah we got to go so now your girlfriend

I'm sure she's a lovely woman at any point did she say I'm staying and you can like you're the one who threw the ball so I'll see you when I see you no no she was so she came with you she backed me 100%

yeah she was in solidarity the two of you ran out of there and you went you went to the St. Louis Bar and Grill And so you're sitting there And you're telling the story To some people there Yeah, so we go in there And I go to the bar

I got a beer And I chatted a few guys there And one of them sort of recognizes me And then they all just like Travel quickly through the bar And then beer is getting bought for me So I slammed a few of those back A couple of San Bucca shots

And then Like 10 minutes later My girlfriend had secured An extra two more tickets And the 500 So pretty puddled now after all those drinks, walking into the stadium of the 500s, get to the 500s.

I start telling everybody who I am because now I'm, you know, pretty compled. And, yeah, so then they start giving me free beers. So, yeah, yesterday morning was a bit of... That's what I was going to ask. How are you feeling yesterday for work? My, yeah, I didn't go in the office. I worked at home. And I like to think I rejuvenated a few brain cells last night's sleep,

but the voice is still a little raspy. And it was all worth it. Good night. Unbelievable night. Well, listen, man. The fact that you, I mean, you're the only person I've ever met who attended a major league playoff game twice, like the same game twice. I've never seen that before. And the fact that the policy there doesn't make any sense. The fact that you got back in doesn't make any sense.

I would very much, I would have loved to have just, I would have loved to have been the guy next to you, in your beers. But anyway, listen, congratulations. Policy or not, I think you did the right thing by throwing the ball back. And you got a great story

for the rest of your life, my friend. Yeah, no, I appreciate you having me on here. Go Blue Jays. Go Blue Jays. And look, I wanted to, I wanted to interview Ned because this, this relationship with the rules

at the Rogers Center don't make any sense. you'll remember that 10 years ago, when that guy threw the bottle of beer or the thing of beer, they banned beer. You don't ban beer, you ban the guy. Okay?

And then I really thought that this, when someone throws that ball back, it's a moment of solidarity. But this is Toronto, the city that fun forgot. Toronto, the city that fun forgot. We're going to use that a lot. We have to have a stable of AI

Zingers that we're going to use. But I just, I can't, I, I, I don't understand this. And you throw hats onto the playing, on the, on the, on the ice for a hat trick. In hockey, yeah. I've seen people throw balls, but the intent, it's your own team out there. Like, like, the intent is not to harm or injure. Yeah. Well, I mean, this, I think in Toronto, they're a little sensitive because back in 2016,

when the Blue Jays were in the playoffs, there was a man who threw a beer can on the field. And, you know, it's like, you can't even, you can't go and you can't even get the league anymore. He ruined it for everybody, but not before the people, I don't know who ran the Blue Jays back then. But they got that completely wrong. Like I said, you don't ban beer. You ban the guy who threw the beer. You make an example of the guy. And that will then say, tell anybody who's watching, I'd better not throw anything on the field of play

because I don't want to get treated like that guy. That's the society we live in. There's a, hey, there's a reason we can't drive more than 100 on the highway because not everybody's capable of doing it safely. That's it. I mean, we have rules for a reason. We walk to the speed of the slowest people. And so if one person throws a can, nobody can have a can.

No, but that's called legislating for the lowest common denial. And we do all the time. Let's find the dumbest example of a human being. And let's create rules that. that are so stupid that even he can follow them. Oh, oh, he doesn't understand that you can't, you can't throw a beer can't, okay, well now no one gets beer. That, that, that moron will get it, right?

That moron will understand, and that does, that's not how you build a society. That's how, that's how you coddle a society. But anyway, jays are in, we can move on. And the Leafs have apparently changed all the times of their games, because I think the next five games fall on World Series nights. Yeah, no, no, everyone's getting, out of the way. Everyone's getting out of the way. Up next, Barry declared a state of emergency in

September after homeless encampments became unruly. Did it work? This podcast is sponsored by BetterHelp. If you've been following the news, like really following it, you know how exhausting it can be. Politics, conflict, uncertainty. It's a lot to carry. And for many men, there's this expectation to stay calm, stay in control, and not talk about how it's affecting you. But the truth is, you're allowed to feel overwhelmed. You're allowed to say, I'm not okay right now. And trust me, I have been there. Whether it's the state of the world, stress at home, or just feeling like you've got to have it all together and have all the answers. You don't have to hold it in. Better help is here to help with the world's largest network of licensed

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Let yourself run. Lift, flow, and go. Explore the new Peloton cross-draining tread plus at OnePeloton.ca. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show. And if you are a regular listener of this show, then you know that we've been following the drama involved with the encampments clear across the city of Toronto. And in some cases, the people in the encampments refuse to leave,

then they are pushed out by the police, then they come back, they're pushed out, they come back. And the one thing that is fairly consistent is if there is a problem, as it is seen by the people in the encampment, is they do not want to avail themselves of the homeless shelters in the city of Toronto. So what to do? Well, let's look to a place where possibly things have gone just a little bit better than they have in the city of Toronto. Please welcome to the show, the mayor of Barry, Alex Nuddle. Welcome back to the show, Mr. Mayor. Thank you so much, Ben.

It's great to be with you again this morning. Okay, so I sort of laid out for you very, very, very. generally how things have worked out in Toronto, and by the way, that's not necessarily the most accurate depiction, but it has been, it has been very dramatic, the back and forth in Toronto. Talk to me about the position that you've taken and Barry. Yeah, just about six weeks ago, we, actually, to the day, we declared a state of emergency. In doing so, we got prepared before we did that to make sure that there was, you know, appropriate amount of beds, rooms, and diverse housing units available, rehabilitation,

services through our heart hub that we're setting up with the county Simco is put in place we have mental health supports all of the things that are needed to help individuals choose a long-term path to success rather than living in an encamp which we know we're incredibly unsafe for those who live in them they're incredibly unsafe for those who live around them so that's the the direction that was given six weeks ago we've cleared out three of our four large encampments as well as about another 10 and small ones, and we're just getting ready to proceed to about our last one, about

a hundred-tenths left in the city. And you have a pretty high success rate in terms of transitioning people from the encampments into more stable housing. It's over 80%. And so, you know, I think that that is a really good thing, right? Obviously, like the community doesn't get better and stronger if individuals are left behind. And so our goal is like, let's help the individual get on that long-term path where, you know, sobriety and they're able to get into some form of either supportive housing, eventually affordable housing, and eventually market housing. So we believe it's a two-year thing with every individual. It could be more. But we're willing to invest in them up front as long as we're willing to take the investment. And the individuals don't want help. And they want to live in a tent. They want to.

being in these places that are, you know, prolific with drugs and violence, like they need to go somewhere that sanctions that. It's not the city of Barry. We're here to help people who want help and want to move forward. Mr. Mayor, I would not expect you to have at your disposal all the sort of the breakdown of all those initial interactions with the homeless population that found themselves in those encampments. But I have to assume that there are anecdotes floating around the city of, you know, I'm sure some people were excited to leave. Oh, thank God, somebody cares. Then there might be those who pushed back completely.

And then you probably have a raft of people in the middle. Do you, are you, do you have a sense of, of how that process took place and how you went from having whatever number who said yes to having over 80% going into more stable housing. Well, anecdotally, I want to tell you a story that, from when Premier Ford joined me, we went over, we were going to the one remaining large encampment in the city of area. And when you say large, how big? Well, it changes day-to-day. Yeah, there's no real census data, I'm guessing.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. But let's say there's 50 individuals, 100% full-time there. Yeah. there could be another 50 individuals that are in and out, depending on the day, the weather of the time, and what they have at their disposal for couch surfing and those things. So when we visited it, a lady came out, she was actually walking out of the encampment as we went to the edge of it, and she saw Premier Ford, say, whoa, Premier Ford, like, you know,

and then Maradado, whoa, and we just started talking to her, and we had outreach workers and helpers and support workers with us, And so we were able to get that lady immediately into a, you know, like she took it that, that night. Yeah. And the wild thing about it was she said, you know, in the middle of conversation before she accepted it, she said, you know, I could be hurt or killed for even talking to you guys. What? And yeah, that's, that's the level of fear and violence that exists inside of these places. And it took all of us back.

And it's like, okay, we don't say no. to them the support and they were able to, the county was able to help and intercede right away. But if that's the level of fear from the individuals living inside of encampments, you know, it begs the question like, well, why are we scared to say that we're fearful of them when we live around them? Yeah. Well, Mr. Mayor, let's talk about the fact that you've come in just under the gun with the weather getting cold and it's getting really cold. I have to assume and Barry, it's even colder than it is in Toronto. So it's entirely possible that this initiative that started six weeks ago with a declaration of a state of emergency, I mean, you probably

saved lives. Well, we hope so, right? And, you know, I'm not a person that believes in these injection sites. I think that they may, you know, help somebody live another day if they decide to go there and use drugs. But I am a person that believes in long-term change, long-term support, long-term help. And it's way more expensive. Yeah. The patient for long-term help than it is to set up a place where someone can get high. And, Mr. Mayor, do you know the people who sort of made this deal with the city said, we're going to get out of the encampment. We will leave the park. But we're trusting you to help us. And you said it's a two-year process. So do these people, these homeless people who are now sort of in the system, if you will, do they have a point person that helps them navigate the system so that they, that that two-year clock has begun that could possibly see them in, you know, market housing at some point?

Yeah, there's the coordinators that work like caseworkers, if that makes sense yet. And these individuals essentially are helping them navigate through the system. You know, one of the things the county of Simco was explaining the other day when we're having our conversation is, you know, an individual who's currently using drugs needs to go into pre-detox, and then they go into detox, and then they go into rehabilitative services inpatient care. In that process, they're getting health care workers from the RVH, which is our local hospital and health center to provide like physical health, mental health support, and they're moving through the system. And once they come out of this rehabilitation program, which we've already got about 25 or 30 through, and I'm just going on memory, so don't quote the exact number. They're put directly into supportive housing. And that caseworker and those supports are still there.

We believe that the support of housing is going to be needed anywhere from like six to 12 months or each individual, and then we'll get them into an affordable unit we have. And then hopefully eventually at that two or three year marks, they're in back in normal rents. So what you're saying is the job isn't done. The job has just begun when it comes to these people. What advice would you give to the mayor of a big city like Toronto? You know, you took a different path. You had the state of emergency, and now we're seeing the fruits of that.

And granted, you know, Barry is a big city unto itself, but it's not Toronto. So the issues of scale matter here. But what, generally speaking, would you say to your colleague, Olivia Chow, about how maybe she could be approaching the issue of homelessness a little bit differently? Well, look, I don't want to go obviously right at one of my mayoral colleagues, but I will say this, that if there isn't a consistent plan and a vision to get to an end, then you're never going to get out of it. And I'm a big believer in the old proverb, which is where there's no vision that people will perish. And the flip side of that is where there is vision, you'll find success. And our vision in Barry is to have a city that doesn't have any tents and has support for people that need it. And those that don't want help, they choose a place that it's easier to not get help.

So that's what we're doing. And I think if we don't create those targets and those vision, of what we want our cities to be like, we're never going to get there. Mr. Mayor, thank you very much. Congratulations on doing the hard work and seeing it pay off. And I wish you and the city of Barry

the very best and hope to talk to again soon. You too. Thanks so much for having you, Ben. Where there is no vision, the people perish. And not for nothing, that is a proverb that is inscribed on the exterior west wall of the Peace Tower on Parliament Hill in Ottawa. And when you stand there and you see that you see it you have got a vision of the city of

Ottawa all right we're going to take a break when we come back more on the Ben Mulroney show welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show and what would a Ben Mulroney show be if we didn't spend a little bit of time on one of the myriad crises facing this country and today we're going to take a look at the crisis facing our national health care system.

And to be fair, it's not a health care system. It is a series of health care systems, provincially. However, when you hear that Canada is losing young nurses fast for every 100 under 35 who register, 40, 40 don't renew the next year. So what's that all about? Why are some provinces doing better than others?

Let's dig in with Samantha Daggerous, communications manager at the M.E.I, Montreal Economic Institute. Uh, welcome back, Samantha. Great to be here, Ben. Okay, so yeah, that's a scary number. And I, I, uh, you know, without digging into the, to anything, I'll ask a question based on the, the interviews that I've done. Does this have anything to do with the fact that when somebody wants to become a nurse is probably because they want to work with patients?

But instead, given the bureaucratic mess that so many of our hospitals and indeed the entire healthcare system, uh, is bloated by, you are not front-facing with patients anymore. Your job is to do paperwork. That's certainly part of it. But in the aggregate, it's just they're overworked, right? Whether it's with patients or administrative tasks, right? One third of nurses in Canada work involuntary overtime. Involuntary overtime.

Yes, that's right. And if you think of who makes up the majority of our nurses, over 90% are women. And so it's just, it's not sustainable for them to have no. control over their own schedules, right? No. 25% show clinical signs of burnout or anxiety. 20% are considering leaving their job. So these are pretty frightening numbers.

And what we know is that, you know, a combination of understaffing and the fact that they're given no flexibility over their schedule means that they're overworked. Are these structural issues across various provincial healthcare systems? Or is this something that was caused or made worse by, say, the pandemic? Yeah, so the pandemic definitely had its impact, especially if you look at a province like Newfoundland and Labrador, where we found in 2023, for every 100 young nurses that registered, 98 deregistered. Wait, I'm sorry, you got to start again. You said that in Newfoundland and Labrador, for every 100 new nurses that register and work as nurses, within a year, 98 of them? stop working.

Yeah. And that was largely because of the pandemic, because you had a lot of nurses that, you know, were typically working in other provinces moving to Newfoundland and Labrador. And then after the pandemic left, leaving their healthcare system in, like, frankly, shambles and in need of people. So that's just one, an area where the pandemic really hit hard.

But, you know, a lot of these problems are structural. And what we see in British Columbia, because they're the only province that actually both pretty good numbers, not perfect. Obviously, we would love to retain all of our young nurses. But, you know, they have a ratio of about 27 per 100 that left in 2023. So what are they doing differently? Yeah. So they do stuff like shift swapping pools, which is really quite simple and easy to implement, you know, nurses getting together, deciding, you know, if I get an overtime shift that I can't do, you'll do it. you know, if I need you to cover for me, whatever.

Things like that really improve flexibility and improve working conditions altogether. That's something we really only see in D.C. And correct me if I'm wrong, Sam, but that doesn't sound like it costs a lot. That doesn't sound like you need a bureaucratic oversight. This is pretty simple stuff. Hey, let's get all the nurses together. And, hey, if one, can anyone take my shift? Raise your hand if you can take my shift.

Great. Okay, I get you next time. Like, that's, that's, uh, that's, uh, that's low hanging fruit. No, absolutely. But we're anemic in this country to decentralizing any part of our health care system. Um, you know, even if you look at, you know, accrediting nurses, I feel like we've been talking about, you know, making it easier for internationally trained nurses to practice in Canada for ages. And BC, they implemented one application for three different kinds of nursing. That's it.

You know, you go through one process. You're not bogged down and all kind of. bureaucracy and that way we get more nurses less burnout better health care system right so bc has implemented a more decentralized approach um and they saw 50% improvement over 10 years of nurse retention and even 50% 50% 50% improvement on keeping because look i have to assume it's cheaper to keep a nurse you already have than to train a new one absolutely training nurses are super expensive. And B.C. actually, you know, they don't only boast better retention, but they retain their own trained nurses. So 93% of B.C. train nurses stay in the province. So that is a huge

signal that they're doing something right. Well, it's also the B.C. It's also the weather. Sorry, I'm kidding. Can you continue, Sam? I took you off topic. No, but, you know, and you see, you know, the Ford government recently announced that they're trying to expand nursing seats by, you know, 2200 in 2025, which is great, you know, but, you know, a good recruitment effort needs to be met with good retention or else we're going to burn through our nurses faster than we're training them. And as you said, it's super expensive to train a nurse. So, yeah, any way we can improve their working conditions, even the Ontario Nurses Association,

when they went to the bargaining table, they didn't prioritize better wages, which I thought was really interesting because that's typically what, you know, you would want. They prioritized working conditions. They said our nurses are burnt out. Yeah. We need to do something about it. Yeah. And their solution was nurse to patient ratios, which is a bit controversial.

Not many provinces besides BC have this. But that just goes to show that they're really focusing on how we can make life better for nurses rather than even just getting paid more. Yeah. And that has to be part of this discussion. That the idea that the solution to everything that ails our, you know, our numerous health care systems is more money is asinine. It's ludicrous. We spend more money than we need to to get the outcomes that we're getting.

And to see this very cheap, decentralized idea that nurses in BC have been using to their benefit and ultimately to the benefit of the hospitals and the patients. And just as importantly, the taxpayer who's funding the whole thing, Like this should be, this should be at the top of the list any time our health care, our ministers get together. Whenever the ministries of health get together, B.C. should be, should be like, okay, here's something we've discovered, guys, and it works, and it doesn't cost that much. And everybody should be looking at it. Absolutely. It should be top of mind because, you know, if you want to talk about dollars and cents, right, the health care system in Canada is a pressure cooker.

You know, you have most nurses almost 60% reporting that they have experienced violence or abuse at work. And that's because everyone is so strained. You know, people are waiting in emergency rooms for hours. Nurses are overworked. It's really like ground zero for a disaster. So really anything they can implement, whether it's from BC, you know, Quebec or anywhere, even nurse agencies, right, hiring, you know, nurses that aren't in your hospital, but that work for an agency. despite being maybe a little bit more expensive up front, you know, the cost of, you know, making sure emergency rooms and rural parts of the country don't close are well worth it. And but you know, Sam, like, I don't pretend to be an expert on everything that ails each and every health care system around the country.

but generally speaking with a little bit of ingenuity and a lot of creativity and a willingness to have some tough conversations and also bringing clearly bringing stakeholders like the nurses in to the conversation is a way to find solutions like hey crazy thought here we want to we want to retain our nurses let's ask the nurses what they need like this and and and they'll present a solution that probably flies in the face of so many of the things that ail the system, that is bloated bureaucracy, a red tape, and just a high cost. And they're going to do something. Then they've clearly created a solution that works.

Absolutely. And listening to young nurses, that's why we kind of focus on those who are under 35, because they're actually a growing cohort of our total nurses. Our nurses are actually getting younger. And a decade ago, they were about 27% that were under 35. now they're 31 right and so if if younger nurses are leaving those are the experienced um senior nurses of tomorrow that we just will go without well and sam the warning from your organization is burning through young nurses today means having no nurses for tomorrow we appreciate you being here

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