The Ben Mulroney Show - An honest conversation about growing our population through immigration

Episode Date: March 31, 2025

Guests and Topics: -An honest conversation about growing our population through immigration with Guest: Max Fawcett, Lead Columnist for Canada's National Observer If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! https://globalnews.ca/national/program/the-ben-mulroney-show Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Alright, so I talk a lot on this show and a lot of times I speak with great bravado and confidence. But a lot of people infer from that that my mind is closed to new ideas and that it is impossible to change my mind. Nothing could be further from the truth. I engage in good faith conversation and if somebody presents me with facts that change my opinion and my mind, I do so. Happens all the time. It just doesn't sound like it, because like I said, I speak with confidence. And so this next segment is about just that. I want to, and we're gonna do this on a regular basis. I wanna take hot button issues

on which I think I have a strong opinion, and I wanna bring on somebody with an opposing view to hopefully, possibly change my mind, and hopefully introduce new ideas to our listeners as well, whose minds in turn might be changed as well. And today we're going to be talking about the notion of growing Canada's population. There's talk of a project that perhaps we need to grow our population to 100 million by the end of the century. And for a lot of people, it's a bridge too far. However, Max Fawcett, who by the way, I was tussling with a little bit on social media

this weekend, and again, in a respectful way, glad we had fun with that, lead columnist for Canada's National Observer, he writes that growing Canada's population isn't just radical, it's essential. And so joining me to discuss this is Max Fossett himself. Max, welcome back to the show. Thanks for having me on Ben. Okay, so I think I laid the groundwork there. A lot of so tell me why growing Canada's population isn't radical. It's essential.

I promise you my mind is open to this. I'm glad. I look forward to the challenge. You know, Western countries, countries around the world, we're all dealing with the same issue right now, which is a, you know, declining birth rates, slowing population growth. And as we look towards the future, that means aging populations, it means fewer workers, more, you know, more benefit payments. It is sort of the inverse of the demographics that helped us grow our economy so fast

in the 50s, 60s and 70s. So lots of people have sort of cottoned on to this notion that if we grow our population significantly, we can stimulate the economy, we can be able to pay for our seniors, fund our social programs, and kind of stave off the social problems that we have. you know, we can stimulate the economy, we can be able to pay for our seniors, fund our social programs,

and kind of stave off the negative impacts of population decoying. And one of the supporters of this idea was actually your late father. Yeah, no, I know. However, and I'm glad you mentioned him, but, and I don't speak for my father, I never would, but I believe he spoke that at a time

where there was far more buy-in from the general population that the way we were growing our population through immigration was the right way. If anything, if I think a lot of people over the past few years have looked at what we've done, it feels like we, we got rid of guardrails, we opened up the doors, and we just we grew our immigration irresponsibly. For for a few years now, that has

led to all these negative knock on effects. And a lot of people are gunshot. They're saying, look, if we couldn't handle it for the past five years, how the heck are we going to do it responsibly to get to 100 million, especially since we don't we have a housing shortage and affordability crisis and employment issue. So we're in a new world today than we were say, five years ago, as it relates to how people view immigration. Absolutely. And you know, the liberal government deserves most of the blame for that, you know, they implemented policies or they took their eye off the ball on policies

that, you know, allowed, you know, all these knock-on effects, like you said, so, you know, rent skyrocketing, housing prices going up, labor market issues, and they eroded the sort of national consensus that we had had for so long around immigration being a good thing. That consensus is kind of rare around the world.

And so we have to, you know, the first priority regardless of who wins the next election is to rebuild that consensus. It's to get people confidence in the system, confidence that it is being used to further everyone's best interests, not just large corporations, not colleges, not, you know, whatever it might be,

that immigration is being treated as an engine of not just growth, but of cohesion and sort of collective interest. So let's assume, Max, let's assume that we get back. Let's assume that we get there, right? We're back on track. The consensus has been rebuilt. What do we do moving forward differently

that we didn't do in the past? Well, I think we have to ensure that the immigration system is targeted to the people around the world who want to come here and build a better life. That's not just, you know, economic immigrants. It's not just the smartest people in the world, although of course we want them. You know, we need to be open to a lot of different streams, but we have to have the policies and programs in place that make it so they can integrate,

make it so they can land on their feet. So housing, healthcare, all these sorts of things, we need to be recognizing foreign credentials more, I think, openly than we have in the past. We have to break down those silos in the professions that keep, you know, doctors driving taxicabs. We've all heard that sort of story. We have to really kind of have a bigger picture approach to it. But, you know, the idea of getting to a hundred million, it sounds like a big number, but it's actually a lower population growth rate than we had under the Harper government. Like it is not a radical number. It is just, it is just, it just feels that way because it's a large

round number, but we can absolutely get there. And then, you know, one of the knock on advantages is a country like the United States can't push us around quite as easily because we'll be bigger, we'll have more. Yeah, I think more military have. So where I'm where I'm at on this, Max is I, I believe all that stuff, like I like the end goal. And I like what comes from that end goal, Canada, and 100 million people is a completely different force around the world than we are today.

I get that. And I think a lot of people would believe that if you just looked at the end goal, but it's between, how do you get from here to there and saying that we have to put policies in place that ensure that people can properly integrate and that we have the housing required. That's the problem.

Like, unless we haven't shown that we can build enough houses for the people we have the housing required. That's the problem. Like, unless we haven't shown that we can build enough houses for the people we have right now, and a sustained push to get us there to 100 million, I just don't, I doubt our ability to do it responsibly. I totally hear you. I think that doubt is rooted is rooted in in recent evidence, you know, but hard things are hard. It doesn't mean we shouldn't do them. Yeah, this is, you know, this is this is take those sorts of big swings now, I think. And so, you know, maybe that's, you know, gatekeeping immigration levels based on housing numbers, you know, you don't get to increase your population unless you've built enough housing units. Federal funding can go in place to more aggressively reward provinces that build housing

quickly. And, you know, we're starting to see that obviously, that's a policy of care polyam, it's a policy of the federal government, that's good, we can do more there. We have to get really ambitious and aggressive here. But there is such a huge opportunity right now in front of us. You know, we have all of these talented people in the United States, you know, doctors, researchers, who kind of don't want to be there right now and are looking for greener pastures. We should be welcoming them up here and making ourselves stronger, smarter, richer, better. That is the way forward. So I think for too long,

our politics have been defined by a sense of scarcity. And I'd like to see that replaced with a sense of abundance and ambition. I agree with you, Max. I think that the 100 million population is a part of that. I 100% agree. I just think, unfortunately unfortunately what it's gonna take is it's gonna take almost like a moratorium

until we get back to that consensus that you described that we all enjoyed. And there was something really uniting in that notion that left, right, didn't really matter. We all believed that the path forward was responsible growth through immigration. And until we solve all those knock-on effects have been created by the irresponsible growth

that we've experienced recently, I don't think we're gonna, I just don't know that it's a conversation that's going to find purchase anytime soon, although I am glad that it's starting with articles like what you wrote. Well, yeah, I think I agree with you. I think we have to fix the problems that we've created

before we can start building, you know, this new new ambitious program, but we have to start seeding the ground for this idea. Yeah. And, and what what makes it good and not not salting the earth with, you know, anti immigration rhetoric and, you know, that can happen, I think, if we let this get too far out of whack. So I'm glad that there is sort of a consensus among all the major parties on the near term immigration targets on the caps, on things like that. And let's continue building that momentum and rebuild that consensus we used to have. Did Max Fossett and I just agree on something? I think we did. Max, thank you so much for joining me. I really appreciate it. It was a pleasure. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show in our previous segment, which we're trying out. It's about changing my mind on hot button issues of which I may have a very strong opinion.

Max Fawcett, the National Observer joined us to try to convince me that this idea, this ambitious idea of growing the Canadian economy or the size of the Canadian population to 100 million people by the end of this century is a good idea. And you know what, I think what we settled on is, I think it is a good idea. It's just not until we solve the problems that we have created by unchecked immigration

in the past few years. It's like, you know, if you went to a baker and they couldn't bake you a Betty Crocker cake, you wouldn't hire them the next week to bake your wedding cake. Like, thank you. No, you haven't acquitted yourself yet on the simple stuff. So forget it.

And so until we restore the national consensus on immigration, which has been squandered by the liberal government, it makes no sense in embarking on it. Now, I concede it makes sense to start talking about it because one day possibly we'll get back there, but I wanna hear from you. So give us a call and let me know your thoughts on this.

And let's talk to William. William, what do you think? Is this a sensible idea or will it make more sense to you in a few years? Yeah, good morning, Ben. You know, I would always hear this, I bring 100 million people. And as being a human being that I am,

it's like, wait a minute, wait a minute, why can't you do that? But when you get at somebody who has the intelligence, who has the know-how to sit there and explain everything to you, it makes sense. It's not like you're getting dumped on. But my only issue that I do have is that Canada's population is within 90 miles of the U.S. border.

Would 100 million people fit along that or will we encourage people to go further north? That's a good question. Is everybody going to congregate in Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver as they have been as so many immigrant communities cluster together? That's a really good point, William. And look, I take Max Fossett's point on a number of things. That this is, you know, we're approaching a crisis point in terms of the tax base that we have with so many people retiring and therefore not in the workforce anymore.

We're not gonna have enough people to pay the taxes required to pay for our social services. What I would say, if I could be just political for a moment, immediately political, is that if you really want to be able to pay for all the social programs that we have, the best way to do that is to do things like build out infrastructure projects, LNG, natural gas, oil, expand the oil and gas sector so that we have these massive companies paying massive amounts of corporate taxes, which then in fact, pay for all of those things. But let's hear from Mike. Mike, welcome to Ben Mulroney show. Mike, you there?

Good morning, Ben. Yes, good morning, Ben. Again, not a big fan still. I just Googled top countries to live in, Finland, Denmark. These people don't have 100 million people. And again, the issue we have here is an expense issue. What are we spending government-wise right across Canada? I've heard on other radio stations, your radio station in the past, of the excess government officials that we have. We pay so much in wages, in pensions to cover all these people at 55.

I always got to think is that they're bringing more people in just to keep that part of the country afloat. We have enough Tim Horton employees, we have enough people who are working into the hotels where regular Canadians have lost their jobs. Yeah, listen, but that's my point, Mike. My point is that we have to solve the problems that came from the past few years of failed immigration policy. But once we do that, once the housing crisis has been alleviated, once the affordability crisis is gone, once we figured out how to deal with the increasing number of people in our congested streets of places like Toronto and Vancouver and Montreal. Once we do

that and that consensus is restored, we can then look at, you know, expanding on that. So we need to build industry out in the prairies of Saskatoon and Regina. Oh, yeah. And all these places, because you're not getting any more people in Toronto. No, I think many people around the Horseshoe Falls, because we are actually we are losing our identity thing. I said it. Thank you, Mike. I'm gonna leave it there with you. But thank you very much. Who do we have now? We've got Michael, Michael, welcome to Ben Mulrooney show. What do you think about this ambitious plan to grow our our population? It's crazy. I just I'm a letter carrier. Okay. And I do my route every day. And I deliver to basically Edmunds Carbo. It's

wartime bungalows. Every house is jammed with 1314 people. Yeah, it's crazy. Absolutely crazy. If this is good in the liberals eyes. This is a win. I don't know what a loss is. Well, hold on. Yeah, hold on, Michael, because I want to add nuance to it. I think what came across from my conversation with Max Fawcett in our previous segment, who's a proponent of this idea,

is that I don't think anybody's suggesting that we get on this national plan today or anytime soon. I think it's a plan for the future. Once we can get back to a place where everybody agrees, all right, we bring in the people we can handle. And we've created the infrastructure, we've made the space so that we can handle more. What do you think of that? Yes, sir. I don't think it's even like a housing issue. It's an

affordability issue. Yeah, there are tons of condos on the market right now. In real estate. He says you can't give them away right now. You can't, it's because they're too expensive, people can't afford them. All right, well, Michael, I wanna thank you for your call. We wanna take some more calls before the end of this segment.

Tom, welcome to the show. And where do you fall on this debate of increasing our immigration? Well, we don't have industry for immigration. We don't make snowblowers. We don't make snowblowers. We don't make one lawnmower. And people who use the excuse, oh, because the states are 10 times the size. No, no.

Part of my background is Croatian. They make lawnmowers. They make cars. They send cars to China. And here we don't do anything. I don't blame the people because it's not worth it when you're overtaxed to make anything. Right. And as I was saying before, a lot of my family and friends are all going back to their countries

of origin, be it Ireland. Ireland's GDP is double of ours. When I used to go there in the 80s, it was a poor country. Now they're double Canada. Things cost the same, but it's way more affordable. I got relatives come from Ireland for my daughter's wedding. To them, it's nothing, because they make money like how Canadians used to, right?

Dave, I'm going to leave it there. I want to thank you for adding your voice to the conversation. I really appreciate it. I think we've got time. Oh, no, that, no, is this, yeah, was that Dave? I can't remember. Oh, that was Tom. I'm sorry, Tom, I apologize.

This is Dave. Dave, welcome to the Ben Mulroney Show. Oh, that was Tom. I'm sorry, Tom, I apologize. This is Dave. Dave, welcome to the Ben Mulroney Show. Yeah, this is Dave. You got that one straightened out. Ben, good hearing from you. I've been down for a couple of months. The damn radio doesn't work on my machine, but we got it working.

So I'm back on air. I'm listening to some- I'm glad to have you, Dave. TalkSense radio. I love that. I love it. Haven't we? Haven't we had a problem with world overpopulation?

They've been talking for years and years, like seven to eight billion. And that's about all we can supply a lot of stuff for. Yeah, but we got a lot of space here. We got Dave, we got a lot of space here. Why can't we have them here? When is the last time you're down on a nice sunny day in January in Saskatchewan, when it's 35 below? But climate change is going to make it so that...

It's going to help them if they want to live up there. It's going to be balmy in January in about 10, 15 years. So we need more pollution. We need more pollution so the weather changes. I'm in for that. Dave, thank you. Anyway, I'll let you go. Thank you for calling and I'm glad to have you back joining us

with the Ben Mulroney Show on the radio. Hey, Mark, you're our last caller. Tell them what do you think. I think I don't want us to turn into Britain, first of all, as much as I love the place. And I think that, frankly, we're just not ready. We don't have the infrastructure. We don't have anything ready to go that route. Mark, you hit the nail on the ready. We're not we don't have the infrastructure. We don't have anything Ready. Yeah mark that route mark you hit the nail on the head

We're not ready for it And so the way I ended my conversation with max was that you know It's important to to at least start the conversation about it so that when we are ready We have our ducks in a row with you know, what policies work? How do we ensure that the people coming are? ensure social cohesion so that we don't have the problems of the past? And Mark, this is me playing devil's advocate, but how about this is a hot take. Now that we've gone through the past four or five years of unchecked immigration, we know what not to do. You learn by failing and we failed miserably. Oh, I got to run,

I got to run, but thank you very much. ["I'm a Man"] Want to transform your space and your Sundays? Well, Home Network is giving you the chance to love your home with $15,000. There can only be one winner. Tune in to Renovation Resort every Sunday and look for the code word during the show.

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