The Ben Mulroney Show - Apologies, public prayers and the economy takes a hit.

Episode Date: August 29, 2025

GUEST:  Harini Sivalangam, the Director of the Equality Program at the CCLA If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://link.chtbl.com/bms⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Also, on youtube -- ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@BenMulroneyShow⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Insta: ⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠ Twitter: ⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠ TikTok: ⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠ Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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That's BetterHelp, help.com slash Mulruni. When I found out my friend got a great deal on a wool coat from winners, I started wondering. Is every fabulous item I see from winners? Like that woman over there with the designer jeans.

Are those from winners? Ooh, are those beautiful gold earrings? Did she pay full price? Or that leather tote? Or that cashmere sweater? Or those knee-high boots? That dress, that jacket, those shoes. Is anyone?

full price for anything? Stop wondering, start winning. Winners, find fabulous for less. Welcome, welcome, welcome to the Ben Mulroney show. We made it to Friday, ladies and gentlemen, it's the end of the summer, the official end of the summer. It's Labor Day weekend. Friday, August 29th. Kids go back to school on Tuesday. Oh, what a wonderful, wonderful day for so many parents. Listen, I had a great summer with my kids. Really great summer. I loved every second with

them. But boy, listen, my boys, I'm sure I'm not alone here. My boys are 15. And they are the sweetest, nicest kids in the world. Whatever they do with their lives, they're going to do it with kindness and very, very happy that that's that's what's inside them but they slept so much this summer i i remember when i was a kid uh i would sleep they went one day one day they were up at eight to watch cartoons and now my i'll come back from this show and they are not even close to waking up so uh their their school schedule is gonna smack them in the face pretty freaking hard and uh good luck boys good luck I had a great dinner last night I like to tell you about that

every now and then when I go out Don't go out too too much I went out for dinner with my mom and two wonderful family friends and we went to a very expensive restaurant I'll tell you this is the type of place I love going when somebody else is paying and that's exactly what happened

and it's a restaurant called Milos it's a Greek restaurant started in Montreal and if you go to the original it looks just like a taverna Like a family-run restaurant, right? Which is what it was. And I don't know the evolution of the brand.

But then they opened one in London and New York and Las Vegas. And these do not look like the original restaurant at all. And then they open one finally here in Toronto. And boy, the service is the same. And the food is as incredible as it is in Montreal. But it is a step above. The food was sensational. But more than that,

they remember my mom and they remember how much my dad. It was my dad's favorite restaurant. And my dad was a people watcher. So he always took the same table right in the corner so he could watch all the people. And anyway, I want to thank the people there for making me remember my dad a little bit. Yeah, Milos, if you have somebody in your family with deep pockets, make that reservation and leave your wallet at home until I'm sorry. I'll get you next time when we go to. when we go to St. Louis for some chicken.

All right. So that's that. I want to start with a, I want to start with a little bit of fun and a little happiness because our friends at Integrity T.O. They put a spotlight on, on, on, on this new, I guess the, the Integrity Commission of the city showing off their new email signature. this is I've said before that if the woke

agenda has a last stand has a Stalin grad it'll happen in a place like Toronto and I can't read okay we all know what an email signature looks like right it's got your name

it's got well they used to have your name your title and then ways to contact you. That was it. That was the information that people really needed. And then the pronouns started pop it up and some of them, some people still use them and some people paired them back. But now, oh, I can't read this whole thing. It's a full page. The email signature is a full page that includes a land acknowledgement, an African ancestral acknowledgement, which is longer than a land acknowledgement. and confidential information.

Okay. It's the Office of Integrity Commission acknowledges that we are on the traditional territory and, and, and, and the new one, the African ancestral acknowledgement, though I am not a person of African descent, I'm committed to continually acting in the support and in solidarity of black community seeking freedom

and reparative justice in light of the history of ongoing legacy of slavery that continues to impact black communities in Canada as part of the commitment, I would also like to acknowledge that not all people came to these lands as migrants and settlers. Specifically, I wish to acknowledge those of us who came here involuntarily, particularly those brought to these lands as a result of the trans. And it goes on. It reads like a blood oath for a cult. Sorry.

This can't be normalized. I'm not living in a world where I'm accepting. I'm going to be so progressive and my heart is going to be so open that I say, oh, oh, this makes sense. This makes no sense. Who does this help? As a matter of fact,

it reinforces how this is just performative nonsense because look at the streets of Toronto, look at the lives of people in the city, are we better off today than we were when we started down this path of self-flagellation? The answer, of course, is no. Are the services in the city? that people from racialized communities depend on,

like the TTC, are those better off? Are our schools, our public schools better off? Where the hope for everyone who put their kids in the schools, our hopes are that their kids get an education so they can have a better life than we had, which is the promise that everyone wants to see upheld, whether you came here voluntarily or not. This is, hmm, I'm going to say,

this is bullshit. this is bull and it's a waste of time and it feels it feels like the people on this side know that the death rattle is coming they know that they're going to get smacked in the face with reality soon and so they're hardening their position that's what this feels like and so this is happening a week after Sankofa day right Where we honored the Ghana people, all 12 of them in Toronto, and the rich history that we all know, Toronto's linked to Ghana. I mean, okay, so that's how this feels to me. And again, I'm not stupid.

I'm not an idiot. I've lived in the world for nearly 50 years. This is not normal behavior. This is ideological, it's cult-like, it is not, it is not tethered to any notion of responsible government or measured behavior by people that we trust with the day-to-day goings-on of a city. This is not normal. And I'm not going to live in a world where it's normal. It needs to be called out for what it is. insanity. And it feels like, and I'll say it again, feels like they're hardening their position.

It feels like they're girding for a battle. And they're drawing some, I don't know, they're reinforcing their last stand so that, I don't know, when the upcoming election comes, they've got this to hold on to. So yeah, that's how I feel. And I'm not sorry about it. So, meanwhile, you'll remember, we all went through the, again, the self-flagellation of renaming Ryerson, the name Toronto Metropolitan University, which feels like the name of a fake university on a bad CBC show. That's what it feels like. Yeah, if, if, if Spider-Man, if Spider-Man in the Marathon, if Spider-Man in the

Marvel Comics were to visit Toronto, he would be taking classes at Toronto Metropolitan University. It's a meaningless name, again, untethered from any, any sort of social co-heat, like, it doesn't unite us in any way. Like, where's the Metropolitan come from, by the way? We've never been a metropolitan, where the GTA, we've, uh, uh, that word has never been so whatever, it's meaningless. It's, and, and we, and let's not forget, it. this happened in the absence of any real due diligence on Ederson Ryerson.

Because were they to do it? Or maybe they didn't chose not, they didn't care. This was a man who, despite what we say were his failings because he wasn't woke enough for 22 or whatever happened. The First Nations communities that he interacted with had enough respect for him that they had their own separate funeral for him. That's what happened. They buried him as one of their own. But don't worry about that. We, the white man, are going to tell you that he victimized you so much that today we are going to go through the effort of renaming the university something meaningless.

And right next door, we are going to name, we're going to rename a different square for different reasons after a group that we have no relation to in this city, despite massive protest. despite the cost overrun, this is what we're going to do to make your life better. Okay, yes, we're over, but we're going to go to the clip. So with that in mind, remember what I've said,

everything will never be enough. So with all of that self-flagellation to show how progressive TMU is, here is a student confronting the vice president on the grievances that she's got. Hi, can I interrupt? You're Alberta, right?

I am. Yeah, you're the VP and Provost? Yes. Yeah. Sorry, we're just in the middle of the conversation. Yeah, okay, whatever. All right, we are going to move on here on the Ben Mulrini show. We want to talk about what's happening in Quebec, specifically, well, it's happening everywhere

across the country where protesters, whether you agree with their position or not, is not relevant. More and more, the line. keeps getting moved. What starts as a march turns into an occupation of a public space like an intersection. And now we're living in a time where in Montreal, specifically it's happening there more than elsewhere, there are calls to prayer, Muslim calls to prayer, in front of places of worship that aren't Muslim, specifically right in front of one of the most iconic Catholic churches in all of North America, Notre Dame Basilica, in old Montreal. And not for nothing.

That's where we had the funeral for my father. And hundreds of Muslims are praying in front of that space. Yeah, they are occupying the space. I'm not using that in a political way. That's what's happening. They're taking the space over. Yeah, here's what it sounds like. Yeah. And just, there's something beautiful about that. But right next to that, if you see the video, there is a couple trying to take their pictures of their wedding. And somebody writes, writes right in front of them on the pavement in chalk. They write the words something to the effect of genocide supporters and an arrow pointing at the couple. And the Quebec government, Francois Lagos, Kack, is,

plans to ban street prayers. They're framing it as a step to uphold secularism. As I said, the trigger for the debate is what's happening in public. And one has to ask, why are these choices being made? Why are groups of people choosing to pray in front of, say, a church? Again, I'm not going to sit here and hedge and try to be respectful when I know and you know that the goal of this action is to be disrespectful. And I'll frame it this way.

If a group of Catholics decide to pray outside of a mosque, this entire country would be up in arms, framing it as the new crusades. That's what it would be. It's the new crusades. Don't sit here and tell me it's anything but that because I know because I'm an intelligent, self-aware human being. and I know what I see.

I'm not playing this game of trying to be overly polite and not try to hurt people's feelings. The goal of this is to make life uncomfortable for those they view as other. That's what it is. That's what it is. I could go on. I could suggest other things,

but I'll let you do that. This is not happening in a vacuum. This is happening with context. We all know what the context is. But what we're witnessing is is the line constantly being moved. Look, we saw it when that Christian singer was in a small church in Montreal.

One of the protesters felt comfortable enough to walk inside the church and throw a smoke bomb. Okay, so the line is being moved and has been moved for two years. And is the government of Quebec right to do this? Well, I don't know. But I'm kind of at a place where I kind of want the courts to figure it out. I kind of want people to have to hire lawyers and defend their decision to do these things.

I want it to cost them time. I want it to cost them money. And if the law gets thrown out, they can write another one and try again. But I am tired of the permissive nature of allowing people to take over public spaces that I as a taxpayer or pay. I'm paying for you as a taxpayer, paying for you, you don't get to use these things. Life is less enjoyable in a place like Canada where these sorts of things were supposed to be left elsewhere. This is not, I'm tired of importing other people's problems.

I was tired of, yes, go ahead, Mike Jolet. Not for nothing, but Montrealers, unlike people in Toronto, have been fighting back against this. And they were, and they've held a bunch of protests about the protests. And so we have some of the audio. It is in French, but it's very short. Just play that. The streets of Montreal

are not des mosques in plan air. Yeah. So the streets of Montreal are not open-air mosques. And they're not. They are not zoned that way. The people using them for that purpose are not paying additional fees

to use them that way. And the people paying the taxes that are supporting those areas are not allowed to enjoy them in the purpose for which they were intended. For all of those reasons, you can take everything else I said off the table. All of those reasons make what is happening in Montreal wrong.

Just flat out wrong. You put the intent that I'm ascribing and I don't think I'm an idiot. I think I'm dead on and I think it's incumbent upon anybody else to prove that I'm wrong. I don't think it's up to me to prove the intent of the people who've chosen to pray outside, let's call it a competing product, right? They're showing their product off and they're doing outside another one. And I promise you, I guarantee you if the shoe was on the other foot, the Catholic Church would be held to account and they would be found lacking.

But for some reason, we're putting up with this. And I'm not here for it. I'm not. Now, is the answer banning outdoor prayer? I don't know that that's why we're going to have. have a conversation on the other side of the break. We're going to be joined by a member of the Canadian Civil Liberties Association. They're going to break down their perspective.

We'll have a healthy debate on this. So don't go anywhere. This is the Ben Mulroney show. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show. the province of Quebec today as the premier of Francois lego is flirting with the idea of presenting legislation that would ban public prayer and this is in the face of increasingly large numbers of Muslims in the city of Montreal praying in places that a lot of people feel is provocative incendiary intimidation perhaps others would disagree and some of that may or may

not matter because the question we're asking now is, is it even legal? And so to do that, we are joined by the Canadian Civil Liberties Association member, Harini Civilingum. She's the director of the equality program at the CCLA. Harini, thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much for having me. So, yeah, listen, we're living in a very particular time. The temperature has been turned up in so many aspects of life. Living together in these cities of ours can feel at times like a pressure cooker and I don't believe that we're necessarily talking to each other. I know we're shouting at each other. And now we are, now we've got competing, competing prayer circles. And so my sense is, and I'll tell you what my, my perspective

is, and maybe we can go from there, more than happy to be educated, more than, more than happy to be told, I'm wrong and this is how I should look at it. But my, my sense is this, we wouldn't let anybody else do this. My sense is if Catholics did this to Muslims, it would be interpreted as a threat as the Crusades 2.0 and we would have none of it. And I think that there's an intimidation factor

here, and I don't know how to address it. So what do you say to that? Yeah, so we would strongly condemn the government's latest attack on Rebecca's fundamental rights and freedom by proposing a ban on prayers in public spaces. And I think I want to face this with looking at, like, what is the actual problem, right? Like, there are not, this is not a widespread issue. You don't see every day people

overtaking parks on streets to do prayers, right? But the most parts, you know, prayers and religious activities are taking place in private settings on, like, you know, churches, mosques, and a god. Well, listen, but, but, listen, if you, if you take it as a snapshot, you may be right, but what we have been witnessing for the past nearly two years is the line being moved. First, it was protests in places where they are deemed appropriate, you know, in front of places of power, the assembly, the city hall, you know, going, even in front of embassies. Like that makes sense to me. But we are now seeing protests taking place in front of the homes of politicians and we are seeing increasingly the occupation of our streets that should be

used for public use. And we're not seeing, it's not being turned down, it's in fact being turned up. But when I see one particular religious group staking a claim to pray in front of the house of worship of another, that should be wrong no matter who is doing it and who is receiving that message. And I don't see the trend line is towards something worse. Things are not cooling down

on our streets. They are heating up. Yeah, and so I think that's a different issue because I think we're conflating to two different issues, right? So there's like, you know, protests and, like, you know, issues like that. But then we're also what this proposed law would do is what I want to look at.

And that would prohibit players in any public spaces. So we're looking at parks and streets And so not necessarily in front of, like, you know, other religious institutions, but in public basis, right? So, okay, so, so let me just stop you for a sec because I'm, Harini, I want to stop you for just a sec, because I think we're both getting on the same page now, which is very good. So, so, yeah, I take your point. I think that, that, so, so if, if this proposed legislation were to be circumscribed to say, you can't do this in front of, say, another, another, another, uh, in front of the place of worship of another faith?

Where does CCLA land on that? So I think that would bring in different issues around, like, you know, protests, whether this is protest on private property and public property, right? So obviously, you know, there are measures that if you are undertaking protests, and if that does include, you know, any forms of religious, like, sorry, religious nature, you know, there's different laws that would apply to that, right? And so what we would say is, like, you know,

that there are, like, there is a right to freedom of expression, but there are also limitations on that, right? And so there are already existing measures to deal with those kind of issues, whether it be criminal laws or trespass and property laws, right?

Yeah, but, so what I've noticed Rini in the city of Toronto is it feels to me like there are those laws on the books. The police are not enforcing them. I have no proof of this. I wouldn't be surprised if it was at the direction of the city saying let that stuff go. And this might be the provincial government trying to put pressure on cities to to enforce their laws. And if they're not going to enforce the laws around the books, we're going to create

new laws. And if you don't do that, well, then every, it's your, your bias is going to be laid bare. Yes. I mean, I think what's happening in Quebec. The government's own committee that was commissioned to look at examining secularism laws in the province actually suggested leaving these issues to individual municipalities that they say already have the necessary competencies, the local expertise to regulate, you know, collective streets prayer. And so it was also trying to balance, like, you know, concerned about these issues, but underscored the concern for respect to individual freedoms.

And I think that's what it boils down to is this prayer ban in public, spaces. And I want to get back to that because that raises significant infringement of fundamental rights, including not only freedom of religion, but also freedom of expression, freedom of peaceful. And I think what's important here is peaceful assembly, freedom of association, as well as equality rights. Because so, so give us, Horeen, give us some examples. Give us some examples of what you think the knock on effects of a legislation like this could be. What rights are we looking? What rights do you think would be circumcumptuant? prescribed, what powers do you think the government would have that they shouldn't have?

Yeah. So, I mean, if you look at, like, you know, if there's, we don't know what the legislation is actually going to inhale, but if this is a blanket for prohibition on prayers and space, this could actually impact some of the most, like, you know, basic, um, rights and freedoms we have, such as freedom of expression, assembly association and quality, right? I'll give you a concrete example. Yeah, please. You know, if there's no carve out for this, Easter rates, right?

that, you know, a common in many communities in Quebec and all across the country would be prohibited. If there's no carve out, if somebody would engage in, let's say, yoga and meditation in a part, right? That could also be covered if there are no carve out. We were also thinking football players who pray after a touchdown in the CFL. So those are the types of things, like if there's no specific carve-outs, right? And, you know, public spaces belong to everyone regardless of their religious beliefs. And these are spaces where diversity, beliefs, cultural identity should be respected and protected. And we're talking again here, like, you know, what we're talking about is, you know, the right to peacefully assemble and pray and express religious beliefs.

And this isn't, again, I don't think it's something that's very widespread. There may be, like, you know, isolated. But I think we also have to look at the slippery slope of what this could mean for all of our rights and freedom. isn't just about religious beliefs, but we're also looking at the government saying that they're not opposed to using the notwithstanding clause once again. Well, exactly.

We're going to get this law passed. Yeah, Quebec is that place where they are not afraid to use the notwithstanding clause. They've used it more than anybody else. I think they've used it more than all other provinces combined. And it's been to their, either their benefit or their detriment depending on your perspective. And listen, I take all your points.

And you bring up some very good points that perhaps this, be an example of trying to, you know, kill a fly with a bazooka. But, you know, the slippery slope, as I see a herini exists on both sides. There's the slippery slope of, you know, the slow and the slow but methodical encroachment on our civil liberties and rights. But the other slippery slope is the one that I do believe is plain for anybody to see,

which is the slow descent, not the slow, it's pretty rapid descent into into the disruption of our social cohesion on the streets of our cities where... I'm glad you brought up the issue of social cohesion and I think what these measures do is actually erode social cohesion and not reinforce it, right?

So tell some to go back with it that you don't belong in public spaces simply because of your religious beliefs, right? So it sends a harmful message that you can't peacefully express your beliefs in public spaces. And I think it actually doesn't protect social harmony but it actually undermines it in Quebec.

My last question for you is, you know, it's an issue of when religions collide. And it is happening. It's inevitable that something bad is going to happen. You know, like I said, all it's going to say, we saw down in the States, you know, somebody took issue with the Catholic Church down there just a few days ago and some children ended up dead. I don't think that's going to happen here, but it's not a good sign. but my fear is sort of religious battles occurring on the streets of Toronto.

It doesn't take much for somebody who is a true believer to feel that their faith has been insulted. And we're living in a time where, like I said, we're not talking to each other. We're screaming at each other. And if the writing is on the wall, don't you think the government has an obligation to buttress against that? So I do think this is a role for government, but what I think, I mean, the underlying objective that the Quebec government always says for these types of legislations and measures that erode religious freedoms is around secularism, right? And I think what true secularism means is not that the state, like, is that the state remains

neutral and protects rights, not that introduce the measures that would actually suppress religious expression, right? Yeah, Horeena, we're going to have to leave it there. But I thank you for joining us. As this law starts taking shape, we would love to invite you back on. This has been educational for me. I can promise you that. And I hope it has been for our listeners as well.

So thank you very much. Thank you, Ben. All right. Coming up, a Canadian online institution bails in the wake of Trump's terror. Don't go anywhere. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show. And it seems like this first hour, we are really focusing on the province of Quebec. And one of the crown jewels of sort of retail, online retail, not just in Quebec, but in Canada, it was a badge of honor, was a company called Essence, S-S-S-E-N-S-E, I believe, dot com.

And it was an online retailer that had just a very high-end stuff, things you couldn't necessarily find anywhere else. And it was one of these go-to online stores. They made a big impression during the pandemic, that's for sure. and really expanded their reach and the brand awareness around the world, they were competing with some really big online retailers. And one of the things that made them so successful was a rule with the United States called the de minimis exemption, which speaks to, essentially you could send something from Canada to the United States duty-free if it fell under $800 U.S.

and that was so a lot of people are not spending that they're looking for a deal they want that 50 dollar belt or they want the you know that the newest i don't know of women's blouse for 150 that looks like it's worth about 800 and so that they could send that stuff duty free well yesterday thanks to mr trump because i guess because essence is such a big bad player in the space that de minimis rule was ended and all of a sudden if somebody wanted to buy something it was it was tariffed it was taxed and because of that essence this massive player in the the online retailer space is planning to file for creditor protection is planning to file for bankruptcy as lenders are trying to sell the company without its consent the company

says which sells luxury clothing and accessories online and in some stores in Montreal sent a memo to staff Thursday morning, informing them of the move by the lenders, saying we do not believe this is the right path for us. Now, just for context, the valuation of the company in 2021 was just under 4 billion U.S. 5 million Canadian.

The estimated revenue of the company was between 750 and 800 million U.S. It's been profitable since its founding high double-digit growth. It's workforce, just under 1,900 employees, that was in late 2024. It was downsized, the major downsizing, to just under 350. Now, the impact on its sales has not been negligible. It's down 28%, almost 29% in the U.S.

And this is, I mean, this is, get ready for more of this, right? This will not be an exception. If Essence is filing for creditor protection, then plenty of other smaller companies are going to be feeling those headwinds as well. Thank you, Donald Trump. Speaking of thank you, Donald Trump, there's a story that another gut punch

in the province of Ontario, where we just hear more and more of closures and factories moving to the United States. The facility, which bottles Crown Royal, will close in February, in a move aimed at improving its North American supply chain. About 200 jobs are going to be affected. Now, the company said it will still maintain a, quote,

significant footprint in Canada. So the headquarters, the warehouse operations, those are in the GTA, and the bottling and distillation factories are facilities are in Manitoba and in Quebec. Now here's the gut punch. Not the gut punch. The gut punch is the job losses.

The insult prior to the gut punch is that my producer, Mike Drolay, spoke with the mayor of Amherstburg last night. Just outside of Windsor. Apparently, gorgeous town. And though Crown Royal Whiskey is distilled in Gimley, Manitoba, its blending and bottling operations have been in Amherstburg for a hundred years. And apparently, every single year, the mayor in the city, go to the company, Diageo, which is a massive conglomerate. They go to them every year and ask,

how are you doing? Is there anything else you need from us? How can we make you happier? Are you happy here? Is there anything else? Can we talk to anybody for you? You want us to bring a mint for your pillow? Like it's that sort of thing.

And by and large, every single thing. No, no, everything's great. Everything's great. Everything's great. There was no warning for the city of Amherstburg. The mayor got a call from Diageo. 15 minutes after they told the workers to go home. Apparently production will resume next week, closing in February.

So Diageo is walking away from a town that has among the lowest crime rates in the country. The worst crime they have there is speeding. Super affordable housing market. What do you think the loss of 200 jobs is going to do to the city, sort of the community itself, the economy of that town. It's going to be gutted. It's one of the biggest employers in the town. But it's arguably the most important because of the history.

Because it's so tied to this, it is known as the place where Crown Royal comes from. Yeah, exactly. And listen, we're going to have a conversation after the break with the union president. We're going to find out what Diageo told him. But we're going to ask, like, what should, what should Doug Ford do? Who's been very, very clear on the role of the LCBO here, support Canadian? Is Diageo, is Crown Royal still going to be considered Canadian by the LCBO? I have no idea.

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