The Ben Mulroney Show - Are Canadian Politicians actually making headway in Washington?

Episode Date: February 21, 2025

Guests and Topics: -Pitching Ontario as an Energy Powerhouse with Guest: Stephen Lecce, Ontario Energy Minister -Stephen Harper: The preservation of Canada's existence must be our highest objective with Guest: Regan Watts, Founder Fratton Park Inc., former Senior aide to minister of finance Jim Flaherty -Israeli PM Netanyahu says Hamas will pay for not returning Shiri Bibas with Guest: Dr. Casey Babb, Senior Fellow with the MacDonald Laurier Institute, Advisor to Secure Canada and Austin Parcels, B'nai Brith Canada's Manager of Research and Advocacy If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! https://globalnews.ca/national/program/the-ben-mulroney-show Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Want to own part of the company that makes your favorite burger? Now you can. With partial shares from TD Direct Investing, you can own less than one full share, so expensive stocks are within reach. Learn more at td.com slash partial shares. TD, ready for you. Uh, we as a nation, I believe communed last night while we all watched the final of the, um, four nations, uh, face offoff in Boston where Canada took on the United States and Conor McDavid, the best player in the world scoring the most important goal of the tournament in overtime to give us the 3-2 win over the United States at a time where Canada, I believe, needed this win.

We needed to stand apart. We needed to stand above. We needed to show that as my brother Nicholas said, and so much credit goes to Nick, we are first, not 51st. I saw that, he sent that to me in a message last night, and I was like, oh, I gotta say that on the radio. So bears repeating.

Thanks to Team Canada, we showed that got to say that on the radio. So bears repeating. Thanks to team Canada. We showed that we are first, not 50 first. And it was a wonderful, wonderful feeling. Uh, and, uh, you know, we've been taking, we've been taking body blows for the better part of a couple of months now. And it was nice, uh, to at least in this round score a knockout punch. I'm sure the battle will wage tomorrow and the next day, but for that one shining moment,

it was a good day, a good day for Canada. The Canada goose trounced the eagle. But back to the back and forth between Canada and the United States. One of the things that we as a nation conceded and promised Donald Trump as he is trying to get us in line with whatever he wants the world to look like, we promised that we would take the illegal manufacturing and sale and exporting of fentanyl more seriously. And as part of that new initiative, we promised to list a number of Mexican drug cartels and

criminal organizations as terrorist entities. So here is RCMP Commissioner Mike Duhaime confirming that there are in fact multiple cartels that are working and operating inside Canada's borders. I can confirm that we do have intelligence that cartels, different cartels, operate in Canada. There's also strong intelligence that Canadians have actually moved to Mexico and South America to facilitate the transport of certain commodities into Canada, so we are aware of it. Two street gangs that you included in there as well.

The street gangs, it's the same. The intel picture is very similar. There's a lot of organized crime groups that are not listed that feed in from the Mexican organized crime group. So if you are supporting an organized crime group that is now listed, you're part of that and you could be charged under the terrorism legislation. Look, two things can be true at the same time and often are. Donald Trump has muddied the waters and poisoned an otherwise healthy relationship between

Canada and the United States. That's true. What is also true is he highlighted a problem that none of us knew actually existed. If you had asked me to list the top 20 threats that exist inside Canada to public safety and good government and general good order in the streets, I would not have put Mexican cartels on that list because I did not know that they were a problem. He shows up, tells us it's a problem. We push back. He pushes back. We end up conceding that we're going to work on it. And all of a sudden, the head of the RCMP says, no, no, they're operating here. So we can look at him with disdain. We can look at him with concern. We can say

that he is a problem. We can say he's making our lives hell. We can also say in that moment on that one file, he did the responsible thing. There's a part of me that thanks him for that. I Think you take you take him in his totality and he's a problem but on that one file Well, thank goodness. You did that sir because I didn't even know they existed in Canada We've got ten premiers 13 premiers if you include the the the territories 10 premiers, 13 premiers, if you include the territories, all of whom seem to be working overtime on this very file of dealing with Donald Trump.

It is my personal opinion, and it is the opinion of many, that we've had a leadership vacuum in Ottawa, and therefore it's been filled by a great many activist premiers and their governments going down to Washington, doing what they can to shepherd forth a more healthy relationship between the Trump administration and our nation.

One of them has been the premier of Prince Edward Island, Dennis King, who I think surprised a lot of people when he stepped down as the premier after nearly six years on the job. Here's Dennis King talking about that. I have been thinking long and hard about when might be the best time to share that news

with our caucus and with islanders, and when would be the appropriate time for me to step aside and allow for new leadership for our province. And I struggled with it, honestly, because in reality reality there is no perfect time. I have felt for a while that and I knew that I had more runway behind me than I did perhaps in front of me. Further complicated with the threats of tariffs and the threats to our country's sovereignty and economic

uncertainty and realizing that those aren't going to be simple issues that are going to disappear in a few days or weeks. They will require the attention every minute of every day for the next four years. And that really helped me determine that it was best for me to hand the baton of leadership to someone who can be focused for the long term. Dennis King is not long in the tooth, neither as a government or as a man. I believe he's in his mid-50s. Government's been around six years, not long enough for the population to get tired of you necessarily. And yet he chose to step away.

And he chose to step away in his own words because he felt it was time to pass the baton to a younger generation of politicians, someone with the vision as well as the desire to take on what will be a very energy sapping, hardcore responsibility of being part of a team that defends Canada's interests against an increasingly imperialistic increasingly imperialistic, manifest destiny charged American administration. That is the definition of putting country over party,

putting country over self. I wish people in Ottawa, I wish the government in Ottawa had that same impetus, had that same instinct. Because the fact that we are sitting here, waiting for the liberals to get their own act in order, their own house in order, we have to wait till March 9th, before we have a new leader and therefore a new prime minister.

And even that guy is gonna have to hold an election. The most selfish thing that I have seen a government do in a very long time was this drama, this high school drama that we have been thrust into by our Prime Minister who want to give his party fighting chance in the next election Rather than hold a federal election and give any party a mandate, a strong mandate to be a strong Canadian counterpoint to Donald Trump for the next four years, he chose party over country. And I won't forget that anytime soon. So from Prince Edward Lyle, we'll go to the other side of the country.

And David Eby, the premier of that province, had some choice words, a choice comparison. Comparing what does he compare Donald Trump's threats to? I think this is whether it was COVID or whether it's this moment. We talk about the moments in history, Canadians and British Columbia are all threats to the safety and democracy of Canadians and people around the world. And that is what we need in this moment. We need everybody to come together.

We need labor and business to work together. We need indigenous leadership. Here, we're gonna cut it there. Akiye, he compares Trump's tariffs to a World War II. On a certain level, maybe, on a certain level, maybe, working all together, marshaling our resources, you know, coming together as one. But unfortunately, we've had too much

of a polarizing government for too long that I think that that is going to happen in the way that it needs to happen. But unfortunately, we've had too much of a polarizing government for too long that I think that that is going to happen in the way that it needs to happen. This is Carry the Fire. I'm your host, Lisa Laflamme. Carry the Fire, a podcast by the Princess Margaret Cancer Foundation featuring inspiring personal stories about what happens when world-leading doctors, nurses, researchers, and their patients come together to ignite breakthroughs. Carry the Fire launches Monday, January 27th, wherever you get your podcasts. Get groceries delivered across the GTA from real Canadian superstore with PC Express.

Shop online for super prices and super savings. Try it today and get up to $75 in PC optimum points. Visit superstore.ca to get started. This is the Ben Mulroney show and we love bringing you the newsmakers from across Canada right here on the show. And so let's serve another one up for you fresh off of a trip to Washington. Stephen Lecce, the Ontario Energy Minister. Minister, thank you so much for being here. Tell me what was the purpose of the trip down to Washington and how did it go?

Thanks so much, Ben. I literally just returned. We were down there with two missions. First was to speak to the entire American energy executives and largely some of the biggest energy players in America to make clear that Ontario under Premier Ford's leadership has a vision, has a plan that we can be a net exporter of critical minerals, of clean, affordable electricity, and of our nuclear technology. Americans in every state we spoke to, they

are desperate for more power. They need critical minerals. They actually really need these commodities that they do not produce. They do not have in their possession. And so Ontario has a unique value proposition. Yes, we're a democratic ally. Yes, we are one of the largest trading partners in the world with America, half a trillion dollars, but more than anything else, we have what they need. And we made that message known to governors yesterday, the premiers now in Washington today meeting with a series of Republican and Democratic governors. The mission, the secondary mission for Premier Ford is about getting in front of every single decision maker who's in the ear of the president, particularly Republican, the Democrats too, to make clear to them that we have a shared interest

in fighting our common adversary that is communist China, not in fighting each other as Democratic trading partners. And I believe that there is a message that many Republicans care about. And so that's the approach, the strategy, and the pitch the Premier's making. I'm supporting him in that. And I think it's having some impact. Well, and that was the question I was going to have.

With a president that you are working towards and we're trying to communicate with, who can be all over the place. His policies seem to be, at least from my perspective, built on shifting sands. It seems to me, obviously, that the tactic is be as consistent as possible with our messaging fortress am can reliable partner. The problem is not us. The problem is China. This keep beating that drum. And there has been a consistent push by not just Ontario, but Alberta and British Columbia and other first ministers across this country.

And that is commendable. But given what a wild card Donald Trump is, I guess, is there any way to track progress or do we just have to hope and pray that when the deadline comes and passes, tariffs do not get dropped? The goal posts for the next four years of President Trump's presidency is going to be what we've

experienced the last few weeks. After making a commitment of 30 days to allow the governments to build a plan, mutually beneficial plan on border, on military, on the economy, within a matter of days, he violated that, the skirt of that agreement by announcing an intention to impose new terms on aluminum and on steel. Then a week later, it's now he's busy about auto. I mean this is an unprecedented attack on Canada and on our economy and I do believe that the shifting goalposts makes it very difficult but not impossible to have impact. We've been, we've negotiated with this man before. The last time he imposed

tariffs on aluminum and steel in his first presidency, Premier Ford led the way, yes, with all premiers of all political parties in a full frontal effort and got in front of every decision-maker, state level, Congress, Senate, it didn't matter. Anyone who had influence in the presidency, and he does not care, I do not, in my estimation, he does not care about Canada's economy or our workers or families. He is singularly about America first. So then that means our message needs to be about America first. Nine million Americans depend on Ontario's trade relationship. 1.5 million Americans' lights are on and heat is on as we speak because of Ontario.

Our critical minerals, the finest critical minerals and rare earths that exist and there's nowhere else to get them unless you want to buy them from China or Chinese controlled and owned mines in Africa, or you want to buy uranium from Vladimir Putin. I mean, I want to believe that the choices before America, the world where Republicans emphasize national security is economic and energy security. And the premier has been rather a pioneer in driving the message home. And I just met yesterday, I had meetings, discussions with the Colorado's governor and Oklahoma's governor, Democrat and Republican, and both of them said to me, look, we actually

want to find a way forward. We value the relationship and many jobs in those states depend on Canada. So there's, you know, we've got to be reliant on this to the question. We just can't give up. We're going to have to get front and center. We have the largest ad program in Canadian history in the U.S. market speaking to Americans, but increasingly, Ben, an audience of one, one man, to try to dissuade him that these tariffs are a tax on American consumers. It's not in their interest of their economy or their security. Is this crisis not

also an opportunity? Does it not also highlight possibly the need for Ontario itself, separate from the federal government in our embassy, to beef up its own presence in Washington, permanent presence in Washington, to ensure that when these crises arrive, if they do arrive, we have in Ontario from Ontario rather, a constant permanent presence in Washington? Yeah, I think I mean, I see an even bigger, bigger picture if I may bet. Yes, it's an opportunity. This is a challenge for Canada. But you know, as Winston Churchill said, when there are different when there are when there are challenges, there are also opportunities. Seize them. This is Canada's moment to build the energy infrastructure to get our products to tidewater, to get a pipeline to the coast, to build more in Canada,

to buy more Canadian, to be more intentional. Even individuals, for those listening, every one of us have consumer power. We buy just as many vehicles, American vehicles, as we sell them. We have massive influence. If our province was a standalone country, the Premier has made this point, we'd be the third largest trading partner with America after China and Mexico. We're just one province, and yet we have that much power. So we have to use that power for good.

But when it comes to the pivot or the opportunity, you're gonna see the premier focus on buying Canadian, building more in Canada. He announced even part of the campaign, a commitment to end procurement of Chinese products in our energy system and starting to buy more Canadian, build more Canadian, or at least M-CAN, American Canadian, Continental. We're being very smart about this.

We wanna make sure Canadian workers and Canadian technology, Canadian ingenuity wins the day. And we're going to back those instances and those workers. The Premier has been clear, if God forbid these tariffs are imposed, and these other ones are now added too, these are all ancillary tariffs, be under a revolution. He will fight, he will invest, and he will protect the jobs and the livelihoods of Canadians, of Ontarians, as he has demonstrated. The objective between now and then is to help dissuade this man, this president, with shifting goalposts and, frankly, information that is not necessarily always based in the facts.

We've got to get our message out there. And that's why he spoke to members of the cabinet, Premier Ford spoke to congressmen, senators, members of every level of government, and I think that impact or that message will have impact.

MINISTER FRIEDMANN I want to get your take on one other thing. We only have a little bit of time left so we'll have to be brief. Liberal leader Bonnie Cromby took

to the microphones yesterday to say that if the the Tories find themselves in a minority situation she would be open to at least a de facto coalition with the NDP to take down the Ontario government of Doug Ford. What say you to that? Look the Premier is asking the people of Ontario in the Look, the Premier is asking the people of Ontario when we are dealing with a massive threat to our economy, shifting goalposts and literally hundreds of thousands of jobs,

we need a majority strong stable mandate to fight back, to keep taxes low and to keep our communities safe. Any form of, frankly, a Trudeau-inspired government in Ontario bringing us back to the days of Kathleen Wynne I want to believe the people of Ontario will reject that agenda a high-tax agenda weakening our laws allowing recidivist repeat offenders back on their street bringing a carbon tax to the province

that is costing energy putting 25% premiums our energy bills and in this fully quote- released platform, they announced or unintentionally made clear they're not gonna keep the gas tax cuts, the 10 cents a liter. Meaning everyone's taxes are gonna go up at least 10 cents a liter in the literally in the snap of the finger

of that election takes place. I don't think Ontarians want higher taxes and I think they want safer streets and I think they want common sense back in our government. Ontario Minister, Ontario Energy Minister, Stephen Lecce, thank you so much. You're in the tail end, the home stretch of the election campaign, wishing you the very best.

Stephen Harper has been a voice of reason over the past nine, 10 years. As a matter of fact, in 2015, he said a whole bunch of stuff that made a whole bunch of sense to a whole bunch of people, but not enough to stop Justin Trudeau from getting elected. And when you go back and listen to those words, you realize, geez, we really should have listened to him. Well, every now and then he pops up

with sage advice for the country. And he did so recently in the National Post with an op-ed entitled The Preservation of Canada's Existence Must Be Our Highest Objective. To talk about that and a little more, we're joined by Regan Watts, the founder of Fratton Park, Inc. and former senior aide to the Minister of Finance,

Jim Flaherty. Regan, welcome back to the show, my friend. Hey, Ben, good to be with you. So what did you make of Stephen Harper's op-ed? Because I said it comes from someone who thinks deliberately and deeply and seriously about issues. And to me, it comes forth in this op-ed.

Yeah, Mr. Harper, as a former prime minister, occupies a space in Canadian public life that all former prime ministers do. And you'll remember that from your dad and the times that he chose to weigh in on Canadian issues. You know, Mr. Harper, there's a few things that struck me. One thing I think it was a reminder for Mr. Harper that he's still around and he still has something to say

and he thinks Canadians should listen. So there may have been a little bit of ego in his comments, but that's okay. He's a former prime minister and that's allowed. What struck me about his piece is that there seems to be Canadian alignment around how we should respond to the United States. And if you look at what he wrote and listen to Mr. Carney, it is almost a carbon copy of messages. What Mr. Carney said on an interview with CDC last weekend was nearly identical to what Stephen Harper said in his op-ed. So and very similar I would say though I would argue that Mr. Poliev and his remarks last Saturday were more thoughtful in how to approach

the US but it appears as though there is a Canadian consensus on what we need to do with respect to responding to Trump and tariffs and whatnot. And the consensus though leads to the question, which is who is going to do that job? Who can do that job? Who can build and recalibrate Canada? Who can make it future proof, Tampa proof and earthquake proof?

And I think on those, on that frame, that's very good for Mr. Poliev. And so I think Mr. Harper's op-ed really was just more of the same of the Canadian consensus. And now the political question is the one that matters. Well, I think it brings up a second question as well, Regan, which is if in fact there is a Canadian consensus more or less on how to deal with Donald Trump

and these looming threats, why then are people so eager to tar and feather anybody who may stray just even remotely from the orthodoxy and label them a traitor or not part of Team Canada or not loving Canada? Well, that's the zeitgeist of the country and I think some of that has currently and I think some of that has to do with social media. You know I'm one of those Canadians who believes that we need to respond but I also happen to think that the administration has a point particularly with fentanyl and crime. The real question though Ben I think is as we're going into an election season is how do Canadians look at the party leaders and choose who is the best place to respond for Canada?

And you know, public attitudes aside to President Trump and to respond to the issues, that is really the key question. And it's not like we've heard anything new from the liberals. And this, for me, Mark Carney reminds me of Kamala Harris, when she positioned herself in that election to fix the border. Nobody would believe her on that because she had a chance to fix it and she didn't. And so I think Canadians, you know, they are going to look very carefully in the dialogue over the coming days about how to respond to President Trump, not just his threats, but if he happens to take action and they're going to look for the political leaders to, to, uh, to distinguish themselves accordingly. And unfortunately to your,

to your original question, I don't believe, uh, the, the country's attitudes towards the U S you have a lot of oxygen for people who may have a view that is less extreme than, uh, what currently appears to be public opinion. Look, I think, I think you bring up a good point about, uh, you know, the, the, the, you brought up the fentanyl crisis. We've had Pierre Poliev beating the drum that this is a problem for years. And as a matter of fact, in the House of Commons just a few months ago, he said that

the liberal government's perspective on fentanyl would indeed cause an issue with our relationship with the United States. That did come to pass. And after telling us that there was no problem, that, oh, just a few pounds have gotten across the border, you've got Mark Carney saying that it's a crisis in the United States, but it's only a challenge here.

And he repeated himself and said it a couple of times for emphasis to let us know, no, there's not a problem here, but it is a challenge. And then almost simultaneous to that, the head of the RCMP says, no, no, it's a real problem. We got a lot of it. We also have a whole bunch of drug cartels from Mexico that are operating with impunity in our borders.

Then we go back to your question, who is best positioned to make this country future-proof, to make our economy future-proof, and to deal with the issues that arise from our relationship with Donald Trump. To me, I mean, listen, I'm telegraphing my answer, future proof and to deal with the with the issues that arise from our relationship with Donald Trump. To me, I mean, listen, I'm telegraphing my answer. But you know, at some point, I guess the question is, Regan, when is when is Mark Carney going

to be tested by the media on these perspectives and on these positions? Well, that's a very good point, Ben. And I think you're starting to see Mr. Carney tested in the press. It's going to take some time. When I say some time, if we go to an election, it's going to take a matter of weeks. There was an op-ed today in the Global Mail from Conrad Yatobosky talking about the absolute malarkey that Mark Carney is spreading on operating budget versus investment. The fact is media are going to give Mr. Carney a more serious look. The Liberal leadership is almost over and thank God that long national nightmare with Justin Trudeau is nearly over. We're all thankful for that. But as Mr. Carney

does ascend to the Liberal leadership and it does become the focus of Canadians when they're looking at their political leaders, the media are going to give him a tougher time. I wish he would do the Ben Mulroney show and interview with you because I think it would be good for him to do so. You know, Mr. Carney is a very smart guy but you know politics is a different game and I think with the Yakobovtse op-ed and you're starting to see some others, John Edison has written some pieces recently. You're starting to see the media sharpen their focus a little bit, but he's in the leadership now.

He's got to win that leadership first. And then once he becomes the liberal leader and prime minister, the media will take a much closer look at him. And I think Canadians will as well. Regan, I only have about 30 seconds left, but Mark Carney was speaking to Rosie Barton where he said that Stephen Harper offered him the job of Minister of Finance.

Now you worked with Stephen Harper's Minister of Finance, Jim Flaherty in two sentences. What do you make of that? Very surprising, unfortunate, given how much Minister Flaherty did with Mr. Harper. I don't know if it's true, but I do know that Minister Flaherty was a stalwart of the Harper government and in its darkest days delivered, not only an economic action plan that got Canada out of the worst recession since the Great Depression, but also got Canada to a balanced budget

by the time he retired. Regan Watts, thank you so much for joining us and have a great weekend. Jamash alone, thanks Ben. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show. And if I'm being completely honest, we haven't had, or at least I personally haven't had a truly happy day, entirely happy day since October 7th of last year,

since October 6th of last year, when Hamas showed their barbarism and their inhumanity to the world. And unprovoked came into Israel and killed and raped and pillaged their way through the countryside until a war erupted over it to return the hostages and to rid the region of that scourge once and for all. And there have been some happy days.

Yesterday was absolutely not one of them. It was a sad day when we were expecting that the Bebus family, the bodies of the Bebus family would be returned to Israel. The children were in fact returned, but the body of Shiri Bebus, the mother was in fact not in the casket that she was supposed to be in. After getting back to an area near Tel Aviv,

DNA testing proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that the body that was returned was in fact not Shiri's body, which is an insult upon insult upon insult to the families and the friends and Israelis and Jews around the world, as well as allies. And so what do we do now is a very good question. What does Israel do now? What happens to the ceasefire?

We are still in phase one of the ceasefire. So rather than me speculating, I'm gonna bring in people who know far more than me about this, Dr. Casey Babbs, Senior Fellow of the Macdonald-Laurier Institute and Advisor to Secure Canada, and Austin Parcells, of the Brits Canada's Manager of Research and Advocacy.

To the both of you, I say hello and welcome to the Ben Mulroney Show. Thanks for having me. Thanks for having me. Thanks for having me, Ben. Doctor, what happens now? I'm hearing on one hand you've got Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu who says Hamas will pay for this, but back channels are suggesting that the Israeli government is going to try to tone down the volume, turn down the volume, turn down the heat in order to preserve this tenuous ceasefire so that the remaining

living hostages can in fact make their way home? I think it's probably a combination of both of those things. Both of those things can be true. I just, you know, those things aren't going to happen at the same time. But look, then Hamas, they issued their own death warrants on October 7th, and they just really rubber stamped them again with this spectacle, this horrific circus with the Bebas family. Israel will make sure that all accounts are settled with Hamas, the Palestinian Islamic Jihad, and other terrorist groups that have led to this. But they're first going to get, or work to get rather, all remaining hostages out.

There's really, there's no way that Israel is going to allow Gaza to be rebuilt on the bodies of dead Israelis, of dead Jews. And so I think both of these things are going to happen, but really this makes matters much worse. Austin, at some point I want to pivot this conversation to the larger conversation of antisemitism here at home. And I think the best way to do that

is to look to our Canadian leaders who yesterday were, a lot of them were very silent. Those who were wearing kaffirs inside the House of Commons, those who demanded the recognition of the Palestinian state on pretty much on October 8th. A lot of them had nothing to say yesterday. And those who did have something to say, most notably the leader of the NDP, Jagmeet Singh,

did a whole, did a both sides thing, that how terrible this was that this happened to these children. the NDP Jagmeet Singh did a whole, did a both sides thing. That how terrible this was that this happened to these children, but children in the region have been suffering since October 7th, essentially creating a false equivalency behind the kidnapping of these innocent children and the human shields that are used by Hamas in Gaza

over the course of the prosecution of this war. Yeah, I mean, it's incredibly disappointing to see our government have a lack of across the board, regardless of what party or specifically the NDP in this regard, but also the Liberal Party, having an unwillingness to fully address the issue, the ability to make false equivalency and to sort of hide behind the woe is me tragedy of it all without being honest and being clear over what the issue is. The issue in this regard is that there are Jews who continue to get targeted and killed even now in their homeland and to make an equivalency between innocent children dragged

from their houses and executed in a tunnel to children being used as human shields is incredibly dishonest. And I want to pivot to this Canadian Security Intelligence Service, CSIS, report from May of last year that said that ideologically motivated violent extremist groups are using anti-Semitism in Canada in a bid to recruit followers and inspire violence. This is a bone-ch chilling sort of headline to read. Doctor, what do you make of it? Well, I mean, it's it's absolutely correct. Canada has become one of the most dangerous countries in the Western world for Jews. There have been numerous, numerous terrorist attacks that have been foiled since October 7th

attacks that have been foiled since October 7th in Canada and abroad involving Canadians. The problem for me, Ben, is that our intelligence service knows this, scholars know this, government officials know this, but at the same time, all of these groups are very, very hesitant to talk about the root of this anti-Semitism, the root of this Jew hatred and the communities where this is emanating from primarily. And that, the fact of the matter is, is coming largely from the Muslim world and the Arab world. And if we're going to tackle these issues honestly and efficiently, we need to start being able to have tough conversations without the fear of being labeled intolerant or racist. If we keep going like going at it this way, our

country is going to look very, very different in the future. And it's going to be a very, very dangerous place. Austin, the doctor makes a very good point, because if in fact fact you take his point, and I do, that there is this, unfortunately, this oppositional forces of anti-Semitism versus Islamophobia that are, the Muslim world and the Jewish world are at loggerheads, then it does not behoove us every time there's an anti-Semitic attack to have politicians lump it in with Islamophobia. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, it's important to understand too that the ADL released a report not long ago where they discussed the anti-Semitic attitudes within various nations around the world. Canada doesn't have, Canada's not littered with anti-Semites.

It's not like every neighbor is too sick to play for being a Nazi. The problem is in Canada is that there's an incredibly vocal minority of individuals within this country who hold views that are anti-Semitic. And to the doctor's point, there is a large amount of these individuals within some of the more extremist elements within the Islamist community. It's it's hard to understand too though, that the vast majority of Jews and Muslims in Canada do want to live in peace. The issue is that we've allowed a very vocal minority

to sort of dominate the discussion. And it's important to hold interfaith dialogue. It's important to have discussions where we can bridge those gaps and unite the Jewish, Muslim, Christian, et cetera, communities against extremism together. where we can bridge those gaps and unite the Jewish, Muslim, Christian, et cetera, communities against extremism together. Well, and again, it's this inability

to have an adult conversation, to suggest that, if I were to say that there are loud vocal groups of Muslims who are dominating the public space at the expense of the safety of the Jewish population. That conversation is not allowed to happen in a way that could be beneficial. And I wonder Austin, how do we move it to that place? I think we need to get rid of the idea

that having these discussions is somehow Islamophobic or problematic in any regard. At the end of the day, we have to ask ourselves, do we wanna live united as Canadians or do we wanna live as separate people within the Canadian culture and Canadian society? And we need to have, I mean, it has to be a cultural shift. There has to be a shift that allows us

to look at each other and to honestly discuss the issues and concerns and realize that that we have a lot more in common than we do a difference from each other. And Menon Brith is going to be hosting some interface discussions in March. And we really hope to kind of begin that dialogue then. Dr. Casey Babb, Austin Parcells, I want to thank you for your time. And I hope the next time I have you on the show, we can have you for two segments, because this is something that definitely deserves more time. But thank you very much.

Daniel Blanchard is no ordinary thief. His heists are ingenious, his escapes defy belief. but thank you very much. Stay lucky for Daniel. I'm Seren Jones, and this is a most audacious heist. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts.