The Ben Mulroney Show - Aussie anger surfaces and Canada's population shrinks

Episode Date: December 18, 2025

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Tools that make it possible to go from tax question to client comms in minutes. Get better answers to tough questions. BlueJ. AI for tax experts. Well, hello there and welcome. to the show. Welcome to the Ben Mulrooney show. I am your host, Ben Mulroney. It is the 18th of December, 2025. It's a, it's a Thursday. And we thank you for joining us. It's been a long week. I said it yesterday on Wednesday. I woke up. I was like, please tell me it's Friday. And I found

it was Wednesday. I thought it was Friday for a moment, though, right now. Yeah, it's been a long week. It really has been. There's been a lot of intense news. We're going to get to the news beyond the Bondi Beach Massacre because the story is being colored in by new details. We're going to get to that in a moment. But here at home, there's a pretty big story, a spying story, an espionage allegations. There's a man in the military named Matthew Sean Robar charged with passing highly sensitive Canadian military secrets to a foreign entity, reportedly Ukraine, including the identity of a Canadian intelligence operative and details aren't.

Canadian Armed Forces units. I struggle to understand why. But apparently between November of 2023 and April 2024, this guy Matthew Sean Robar allegedly met abroad, communicated sensitive operational information, and discussed future employment with a foreign service

giving the entity leverage over Canada. So does that bother you? Of course it bothers me that it's obviously any sort of anything like this bothers you. But it's Ukraine, a country that how much have we given to 22 billion in aid plus 2 billion in direct military aid? No, it's six and a half billion. Six and a half billion.

That's even worse. Yeah. And we tout Ukraine as our ally, as a country that is it is essential for us based on our values. We're always talking about our values. It is incumbent upon us based on our values to help this nation defend itself in this war of aggression by Russia against its sovereignty. and it's people. And for a Canadian military, what does MWO mean?

MWO, Matthew Sean Robar. That's his title. Oh, Master Warrant Officer. Master Warrant Officer. Matthew Sean Robar. I have no idea the dynamics at play that would allow for a person like that to want to give secrets to a country like Ukraine.

And I also don't know why Ukraine would want that information, right? That to me is, that is the question. I think a lot of people who are unaware of the ins and outs, the politics of the military. I do not understand why a country that has been so dependent on Canada. I mean, do they want leverage so they can't get more money from us? I can't imagine that this is a good play.

You already got a lot, and it's not like this government has indicated in any way that we are stepping back from what we feel is our obligation. to help that country. So I don't know why they would be in the market for this sort of information. Robar is facing charges under the Foreign Interference and Security of Information Act. He's been released under strict conditions with ongoing military court proceedings. And the case is deemed less severe than past estuagnos cases and allegations remain unproven. That's fine.

It's still a bad look. And if you're a spy, you should be treated as such. And if he is found to be guilty, this is a stain on the case. the military. This is a stain on Matthew, Sean Robar and sadly on his family name. But it's also something the federal government should take a look at and say, hey, Ukraine.

Yeah, what the heck are you doing? What are you doing? Why are you playing these games? Why are you in the market for this information? And may I just say, we don't know anything about the identity of this Canadian intelligence operative, who's apparently his identity, his or her identity have been compromised. But I'm just saying, as just one person, I hope to God that person is safe.

I hope that the damage has been contained. I hope they've been removed from whatever situation they were in that could have caused them damage and harm. And I hope that they are safe at home this holiday season with their family. All right. Now to Bondi Beach. So we all saw the images and we heard the stories. Now there are more details emerging. And the more details that come out, the more angry people are getting.

And just to just remind people, 15 people were killed just a few days ago when two. two men, father and son, opened fire on these people on the beach at a Hanukkah. Yeah, and it took, it took one man, Ahmed al-Ahmad, Australian bystander, who bravely discharged, like disarmed one. It's on video. It's on video. It literally ran up, grabbed him from behind, grabbed him from behind, took his gun, shot him. No, he didn't shoot him.

He held the gun. He held the gun. I wonder if he. But he got shot. But he went away. The guy ran off and he joined his, his, I think that was the. son so he joined his father and he grabbed another gun and then he got shot yeah the opposite way I mean oh it was the father and the father went and rejoined the son yeah now there has been a go-fund

me and two and a half million dollars has been raised for this guy's recovery and he is a hero full stop this there should be parades and statues commemorating this man and the what what he did however it's not all good news I mean that's we of course we want to hang our hats on how it ended with this act of heroism, but it could have ended earlier. One of the things that I think all of us were struck by was there's this one video of one guy who had his camera trained on these two gunmen

who just were able to shoot with impunity for what felt like over 10 minutes. It was well over 10 minutes. Well over 10 minutes. And you could hear sirens and you're wondering, where are the cops saying? You're the one who told me that there was a police precinct not two minutes away.

Yeah, well, two, three blocks away. That's it. Two, three blocks away. And yet you could hear the sirens, but there were no police to be seen. There were shots of police hunkered down behind vehicles. And that's where this story comes to the four. And it is, as I've said before, it is not a good look for the Sydney police. Let's listen to the words of Bondi survivor Vanessa Miller.

Her child, she was separated from her three-year-old child. And she was behind a vehicle with two police officers who, in her estimation, weren't doing, in anything to help with the situation. I'm screaming, mommy, dad. These police officers were hiding behind a car. I tried to grab one of their guns. They, one of the other one grabs and he says, no, I'm trying to grab for his gun. These men, these police officers, they know who I am, and I hope they're hearing this.

You are weak. You could have saved so many people's lives. They were just standing there, listening and watching this all happen, holding me back. Two police officers. Where are the others? Not there. Nobody was there. Everyone, the public, helped.

Nobody else. My little three-year-old was saved by a pregnant woman who saw her crying and screaming, mommy, daddy. We were there. There was not, do you know, how long did it take the police to come? How long did it take? It was just. No, what, everyone was too scared.

Well, you know the argument, the line that the, that the National Rifle Association uses, the only thing, the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. But not always. But it didn't happen in Yuvaldi, Texas, in that school shooting, when the police just sat on their hands and did nothing as that shooter went through, just mowed people down. It didn't happen at the school shooting in Florida where the cop on duty at the school ran

away. Yeah. And it did. It certainly didn't happen in this case in Australia where two police officers were sworn, sworn to do their job in that moment, which was to defend people and stop those shooters. They hunkered down and for whatever reasons decided that they could not do their jobs. this woman who was separated from her child must have felt that instinctive motherly

it was written in her genetic code to protect her kid if those cops were not going to do their job she was going to do it for them they stopped her from doing what they said they were going to do I will say that you never know how you're going to react until the bullet starts Of course I'm not I'm not in that position These cops were in that position

Now, they may have felt that they had no shot. They may have felt that strategically from their position, they couldn't do what she wanted them to do. But look, give them something else to shoot at, right? Give those shooters something else to shoot at. Shoot your gun in the air. Confuse them. Do something, right?

And none of that happened. And the fact made even worse that that child that was separated from her mom was saved by a pregnant woman, not the cops. And the woman was like, she wanted to take the cop's gun so then she would fight back. Yeah, yeah. Honestly, I think if they just shot their guns in the air,

that would have changed the dynamic and who knows what could have happened. But this is not a good look for the cops. And I'm sorry that this woman went through this. I'm sorry for everything that happened on that beach that day. We'll be talking about that, obviously, as more facts become available. Up next, when a charity helping people has to fight

for its own reputation. Canada can be a global leader in reducing the harm caused by smoking, but it requires actionable steps. Now is the time to modernize Canadian laws so that adult smokers have information and access to better alternatives. By doing so, we can create lasting change. If you don't smoke, don't start. If you smoke, quit.

Don't quit, change. Visit unsmoked.ca. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney Show, and thank you so much for spending a little bit of your Thursday with us. Don't forget, you can find the podcast and YouTube video. You can go to Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon Music. You can find us on the IHeart Radio streaming app. You can find us on Instagram.

You can find us on X. You can find us on TikTok. Apparently we're on TikTok. I wouldn't know because I'm not on TikTok, but apparently the show is there because that's where you are. We wanted to start this segment with sort of like a level set. You know, yesterday there was a lot of talk about a number of Canadian members of parliament who were denied entry into Israel. And why that happened is a bone of contention and it's controversial and everyone has their own theories on it. One of the theories is that the organization that sponsored them had some sort of ties to,

an organization that is deemed a terrorist organization in Israel. So based on the reporting that we heard yesterday, we spoke about that. And a good friend of mine, a great friend of mine, as I've said, I would trust this person with my life. I would trust this person with raising my kids, told me, look, it's more complicated than you understand, and it's for the sake of having open dialogue with all sorts of people in different organizations on your show, you may want to talk to that organization, hear from them, and get their side of the story. And so he brokered a conversation between myself and

Tufel Hussein, who's the CEO of Islamic Relief Canada, which is the organization in question. We had a very honest and fulsome conversation yesterday. My hope is that this will lead to open dialogue. It will lead to him or possibly members of his organization coming on our show, offering us their insights on all sorts of issues. But on this issue in particular, I want to have a conversation. We're not there yet as I believe trust is built over time. And so we agreed that for the time being, after having a very productive conversation yesterday,

Tufel would send me a recorded statement, which we're going to play parts of for you right now. And then we're going to talk about what it means where we were yesterday and hopefully where we're going to go in the future. So this is, Tufel Hussain, the CEO of Islamic Relief Canada, explaining what IRC is. We are one of Canada's largest charities, raising over $120 million annually. While much of our work responds to global humanitarian crises, Islamic Relief Canada is also deeply rooted at home, supporting vulnerable communities across Canada through programs assisting hospitals, food banks, poverty alleviation initiatives, and families facing hardship. Our work reflects Canadian values of compassion, accountability, and service.

All right, listen, based on my friend, whom I trust, like I said, with my children's lives and the conversation I had to fail yesterday, as well as some information I read on my own yesterday, I take all of them at their word that this is a legal organization in Canada, doing very good work, not just in Canada, but abroad in some very difficult situations. and circumstances. But he went on in his statement to talk about, the IRS... And they've gone out of their way to prove that.

Yes. Because they understand that the, that people are watching them. They understand that, that, you know, there is a toxicity out there, right? There is a toxicity. And there is,

I mean, Islamophobia is a very real thing. It is. It is. And I don't want this show to ever be accused of contributing to toxicity. I will not stand for it. I do not want to be part

of any problem. I always want this show to be part of, of a solution. You know, you may not like my opinions, but I will never, I will never, I never want to be accused of doing anything that adds negativity to the world. Some of you believe that I just by existing am negativity in the world, but that's another conversation. Anyway, in his statement to fail continues, and this is IRC's response to allegations of terror relations. Since the 7th of October, 2023, we've helped to deliver more than

$75 million in life-saving humanitarian aid inside Gaza, including food, medical supplies, and emergency relief for civilians. Allegations claiming links to terrorism are false, not new, and have been repeatedly and conclusively disproven. Islamic relief accounts for every dollar it spends. Independent auditors have consistently confirmed that no funds have ever reached any prescribed organization. Over the past decade alone, Islamic relief has undergone more than 500 independent audits, none of which have found evidence of wrongdoing. When similar allegations arose in 2014,

Islamic Relief voluntarily suspended programs and commissioned an independent investigation into our projects, partners, finances and staff in Gaza. That investigation found no evidence of linked to terrorism. We have also challenged the Israeli government's designation in court and continue to reject this false narrative internationally. Islamic relief unequivocally condemns terrorism and violence in all its forms. These allegations are not only false, but offensive and dangerous, particularly given that humanitarian colleagues have been killed by terrorists, and such claims place aid workers at risk. Each time these allegations have been made publicly, they have been debaublishing. And in several cases have resulted in legal action, public apologies, and formal retractions, including in Canada. So here's what I know.

I know that Islamic Relief Canada operates under Canadian law, has rigorous financial oversight, independent audits. And based on what I've seen, what I've read, and what I now understand to be true, this is an organization that, and this is, this is to me the disappointing thing, that when these allegations come up, it feels like they have to stop the work they're doing to the, then prove that what they're doing is above board. And if you believe that one life is worth saving, no matter what religion, creed, color they are, then any work that this organization stops doing, it's a tragedy because that's one person they're not helping. They could be helping, but instead they have to defend themselves. Now, to fail himself said that they are fighting this, how they've been ascribed terrorist designations. by the Israeli government.

So that is a thing, right? In Israel, that's how they are viewed. That is not a controversial thing to say. But in Canada, this is a legal organization. And based on, as I said, what my friend told me and what I've now learned to fail, this is an organization worthy of respect. And my hope is I have opened up a line of communication with this organization and with this individual so that as new stories come up, so as,

where they could offer insights, they could offer nuance, they could offer a counterpoint, that that line of communication will stay open because I want our listeners to get complete pictures, not just one side barking at another, and that other side not being present at the table. So that is my hope moving forward.

I do hope that the relationship between my show and IRC is a productive one moving forward. And look, if they are going to be challenging, this designation in Israel. I wish them luck because from what I have seen and the information that I have, this is an organization that does put good into the world. And that's what I want this show to be as well. So yeah, I hope that puts this to rest. And I hope it leads to more and interesting conversations between us and them moving forward. But the here and now of what happened in Israel is still a, it's still a bone of contention.

What happened is the question. There's an article written in the National Post, I believe by Adam Zivo that argues that argues that claims that Israel is suppressing independent reporting in the West Bank are misleading, noting that the territory is generally accessible and that journalists regularly operate there. And I think what he suggests is there may have been. a little bit of gamesmanship and theatrics by these politicians to almost find a way to get themselves barred. That's that's the allegation. He's suggesting they went to one of the crossings that is the most contentious. The Allenby crossing, the most sensitive, tightly

controlled crossing. And he also says in his article, and we've spoken to many times, he just drove in there the other day. He's able to just drive in, but he goes in the different spots. When I was in Israel and full disclosure. I was there as a guest of the Israeli government. When we were done with our meetings, nobody told us where to go. We could have gone anywhere we wanted and talked to anyone. So to be barred, I think you got to work really hard to get barred from that country. But that's just my perspective. You know what? You are listening to The Ben Mulroney Show.

Every now and then, I need to be reminded by Mr. Voiceman. Thank you very much for listening to the Ben Mulroney show. And look, we got a lot of stories in the news that affect our pocketbook. And so no better person to have as our Sherpa along the way to help navigate these treacherous financial waters than Dr. Eric Cam, professor at Toronto Metropolitan University. Eric, welcome to the show. Happy holidays to you. Happy holidays to you, and good morning from Fort Lauderdale. Oh, nice. See, I wasn't going to mention that you were in the heat.

So, listen, it's on you now because now I get to say that in a very real, meaningful, and fundamental way, I hate you. Hey, come on down. The dolphin games on me. The water's warm. Come on down. Hey, let's talk about Conestoga College. There has been a lot of colleges across Ontario and indeed across the country. I saw explosive growth over a few years driven by international students. And now it feels like the chickens are coming home to roost.

Oh, it is such a disaster. I mean, they grew their international student base from about 6,000 students in 2018 to 37,000. And of course, why did they do it? Because the international student fee is about $20,000 a year. So quick math, they went from 108 million to 600 million. But there's so many questions, Ben, where did the money go? That's a good question. John Tibbitts, their president, who probably should be in jail,

has seen his salary go from about 450 to about 636. And then in offering all of those international student places, where the heck did they think they were going to put all of those students? There was no housing. There was nothing for them when they got here. Many of them ended up homeless and in shelved. And if you want to make it even worse, if you look at the sunshine list about seven years ago, they had 500 employees making $100,000 or more, and today it's over a thousand.

They are going to cry that this international student cap has killed them. This is nothing more than a story of financial, gross, illegal mismanagement. Well, look, for context, Conestoga College from earlier today noted they had 37,000 international student permits for 2020, 23, 2024. The entire province of Ontario is now capped at 70,000. So this one college was responsible for over half of what the province has now capped their foreign international student permits at. That is a banana's number. How did they think this was going to end? I mean, was it, it feels to me like they got caught in a cycle that almost mirrored a Ponzi scheme right next year we'll pay for this year's debt with next year's

students and on and on and on Ponzi scheme is exactly what it was right they knew that Ontario colleges had become so heavily dependent on international tuition revenue and something that no one's talking about then other than you and I is what used to be the carrot at the end of the stick was that if you came to Ontario and finished a college diploma you automatically got a visa that you could stay in the country. The government canceled that. And then all of a sudden you had tens of thousands of students going, what the hell am I doing here?

Now I get no visa at the end of the day. I'm homeless and I'm paying $20,000 a year for the privilege of sleeping on the street. This is a disgusting story. Yeah, well, let's, I mean, and what are the knock on effects of this? Because now the government is trying to sort of right size this disastrous policy. and you've got all these colleges, especially in Ontario and British Columbia, that became addicted to this very thing

that has now been capped. Sure. And so the ripple effects are, you know, everyone's favorite term, trickle-down effects are going to be wide and they're going to be terrible. Number one, the quality of education and program availability at that college

is basically down to a minimum, and that goes right through the system because this is affecting all of the college, because now the reputation effects on Ontario's colleges couldn't be worse. That puts pressure on other colleges to make up for what Conestoga can't do. That's impossible. So you've got reputation effects, recruitment effects, right? You've driven those into the ground.

Labor and governance issues. Everybody working at a college wants a new contract because they know tomorrow their contract may close. So, you know, fiscal sustainability, people think that's what this is about. about, this is about so much more. And I fear, I'm not a lawyer, you are, but I fear that at the end of the day, there's going to be, if they ever turn this thing up and do a full investigation, a lot of illegal behavior from the top down. All right, let's move on to the fact that for the first time in decades, Canada recorded

its biggest population decline. Our population fell by about 76,000 in the third quarter of 2025, and that's driven mainly by federal policies to curb immigration. Now, for years we were told by the Trudeau liberals that we had to keep, we had to open the floodgates. People in Canada weren't having babies. And so we had to open the floodgates to keep the economy humming. But, you know, it seems to me what we've learned is population growth for the sake of population growth is not in of itself a net positive. It's the type of population growth.

It's the quality of people that are coming to the country that matters more than the number. Isn't that right? Well, that's exactly right. And so what happened with the Trudeau government is they misunderstood and they thought that immigration and population growth was an economic growth strategy. But it can be, right? Under very, very stringent circumstances in like lower developed nations as they are growing, it can be. It has never worked in developed capitalist economies because you know that, When you open up the floodgates, and again, I'd like to just preface this, as a Jewish person,

you know, whose family came over from Russia and Poland, there will, they should always be immigration. There should always be refugees. But the numbers, when you're talking a half a million people a year for about 10 years, right? Off the top of your head, you know it's going to be met with much slower aggregate GDP growth. Yeah. There's going to be labor shortages in all of the key sectors. how do you fiscally sustain that number of new people? I mean, it's never, the funny thing that Trudeau did

is that it's never been a growth strategy ever. And he decided, but I think we can make it work in Canada and it failed miserably. Yeah, and so now we're sort of, it's almost like we're out of the fugue state that we were in and we're finally looking at these things in a sober frame of mind. And honestly, I think a lot of people would rather

a declining, a declining population if the net result is a population that is housed, that is educated, that doesn't put stress on the health care system, and that is here for the right reasons. Well, that's right, right? GDP growth is a key measure of economic strength, and a shrinking population, right, is unusual for advanced economies, but it can signal positives, right? So a decline in this population growth, no matter what people will tell you, it's not inherently negative because it improves per capita conditions. The problem is without productivity reform and Canada hasn't done that yet, it's going to eventually lower aggregate growth.

You know, we've been crying out you and I and everybody on 640, when are we going to join the supply side revolution and have some research and development, some innovation and grow the economy's ability to produce goods and services? And until that happens, we're really kind of stuck, Ben. Yeah. And lastly, and sad to end on negative news. But in about a minute, give me your take on how Canadians under 35 are underwater as it relates to their personal debt. Well, you know, there's a lot of reasons for that. And under a minute, let's not dunk on young Canadians. Nope.

Let's just bring out the fact that for the last 10 years under the liberal government, there has been no economic growth. There has been no sustained wage growth. There has been no sustained jobs growth. So you're asking this generation to be the first of its type to know that probably on average you are not going to do better than your parents. And so while we grew up, you and me, in people saying that debt is bad, debt today is just going to be a reality. And so for young people, my students included and my kids included, they're going to have

to know the difference between good debt and bad debt. All right, my friend. Well, listen, I want to thank you very much for. joining us, like I said, hate you just a little bit because you're down in Florida, but appreciate you taking the time to join us. Happy Hanukkah, happy holidays, and enjoy the end of 2025. And nothing but good health and happiness to all of my extended Malruni families. Stay healthy, Ben. Thank you, my friend.

Yes. Hey, I think we all agree compassion matters and immigration policy, but should Canada be focusing more on the ideas of capacity and cohesion? It doesn't sound like that's a hot take, but we're going to discuss. when we come back. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show. And I believe every Canadian has a hope for this new liberal government under the management of new prime minister, Mark Carney, that he will restore sanity to our immigration system.

and he will restore what was a generation's long consensus that cross party lines as to what a proper policy is on immigration and how we build this country by way of that immigration. And it feels to me like for so many years it was Justin Trudeau and his team trying to solve the world's problems by inviting people in if there was a famine somewhere, if there was a genocide somewhere, if there was a human tragedy somewhere in the world, we opened our doors to those people and then that began a long process of then making sure that those families were reunited and on and on and on. And it was almost like trying to prove how big our hearts were by showing how big our country was and how open it was to all of these people. And lost in that was what is good for Canada and what is good for this country? How can we become better by way of immigration? Well, our next guest, Peter Copeland of the McDonnell-Loree Institute, is here to talk about just that and how competence, capacity, and cohesion have to trump compassion when looking at our immigration plan.

Peter, welcome to the show. Thanks so much for having me on, Ben. So I hope, what did you think of my very long, drawn-out preamble? Yeah, no, I think you're right to say that, look, we've had maybe a bit of a naive approach to, issues in numerous domains, but I think immigration is, you know, a prime example. This idea that our capacity for openness, for, you know, ever greater inflows of people, regardless of where they come from, what they believe, what their educational levels are, is based on this assumption that ever greater diversity is just a net positive.

I think on the contrary, you know, people require bonds. They require shared values. They require time to integrate. And we have just seen both in the near term, you know, this rapid shock, but also in the longer term, a de-emphasis on national identity through an over-emphasis on multiculturalism. We've also seen immigrants as a share of the population increase from 15 percent. in the 90s to over 25 today. And it's much higher in the big cities where you see nicely these problems of cohesion

and integration the most pronounced. Yeah. And I would agree with your statement. Yeah, and we get these mutually contradictory messages from this government. On one hand, we're a country with no shared, with no core identity.

But also, never before have I heard more talk of Canadian values by a government. It's all, everything's about values and values. Yet, on the other hand, they say we don't really have any. And then when it comes time to inviting people into this land of values, we don't seem to prioritize those who would either share them or find a way to adapt their lifestyle and their values to the Canadian identity. Yeah.

No, you're completely right. And I think when you do hear these things like Canadian values, they're very thin or even procedural types of things. Like we're committed to openness, to being welcoming, to being, you know, kind, these sorts of things, which are undoubtedly good. But some substantive beliefs, you know, in our philosophical and civilizational inheritance, you know, the Greco-Roman tradition, the Judeo-Christian religion, that have significant differences from other cultures and they manifest in our policies. And, yeah, we've really de-emphasized integration. It's become kind of a bad word. And I pointed out in this piece that, in fact, you know, some other peer countries who are quite similar to us, they really emphasize this.

And they do so with policies that have incentives and teeth to, you know, require and also help because it's difficult. Yeah. Integrate. Talk to you about those other countries and the incentives that we're going to be. would be built into the welcoming of newcomers? Yeah, absolutely. So, I mean, for one, Quebec is a little bit different, right? Like, they don't have multiculturalism, which, by the way, the bicultural commission

that preceded the development of the multiculturalism policy, it didn't really emphasize things like, you know, endless diversity and stuff like that. it emphasized acculturation into a Canadian way of life, not this endless diversity vision, but that was kind of not heated over time. So Quebec's interesting in that they have an Immigration Act and some policies that are to promote integration, but even they lack the kind of incentives that we find elsewhere. So places like Denmark, the Netherlands, Germany, Sweden, these Scandinavian countries, even France, they have dedicated integration laws.

And Denmark in particular is interesting because they have kind of like a probationary period for permanent residence. And they also make temporary residence and permanent residence residency conditional upon things like language attainment for certain classes of migrants, labor market participation. Also financial capacity to, in those early years, be able to support. themselves so that they're not an undue burden on the state. And all of these things create a culture in addition to just specific things of promoting integration rather than this kind of, you know, come here and there are no duties

or obligations expected of you. And I think as a result, one of the other things you see here is trust levels. So Canada has seen immigration certainly affects social trust. if seen our trust levels decline as a result of, I think, you know, in significant degree, immigration. Yeah. Well, look, the thing that, to me, demonstrates how crazy things have gotten is, you know, we have something that we all would define differently, but everyone's got their own definition of what Canadian values are. And then when you see on the streets of our big cities in protests with either first generation or second generation Canadians, screaming at the top of their lungs for the death and destruction of Canada.

And then we are told that, so I, as a Canadian, am told, my value is one of tolerance. But this new Canadian's value is one that demonstrates a complete disdain for the country. I'm trying to figure out how we pass this country on to the generation that follows if this new younger Canadian espouses a value of destruction to the West. It makes no sense to me. And how is it that my counter to that is supposed to be this benign, generic, oh, well, we're open and multiculturalism is our strength. It makes no sense to me. And to me, it is not a recipe for long-term success for a country like Canada. Yeah, I completely agree with you.

You know, we've kind of on the one hand engaged in this self-flageulating about our own sins, which, you know, of course, any country has them, and that's good to a certain degree. And then on the other hand, to, you know, have this diffuse kind of accept anything and everything. And it's no wonder that, you know, younger Canadians, we're not even seeing traditions being passed down. So it's this kind of strong discontinuity with the past. And it's interesting that, you know, the immigration question, it is connected to us. other issues that affect social cohesion, the common values, you know, even things like social well-being indicators like isolation and loneliness, we've kind of used immigration

as a way to, I think, paper over indirectly some of these challenges with family formation and fertility, you know, an all-time low fertility rate this year. And, you know, whatever you think about the ideal number of children or family, what have you, I mean, it's a basic human aspiration and it's very important for people's well-being. And so we've got this odd situation where we de-emphasize that. We want to import, you know, people and not expect anything of them. And it's, yeah, and that's why I think it's easy to just try to draw together a number of these threads to say, look, get to reset. We need to emphasize integration more and recognize all of the indirect effects.

I got to run, Peter. The piece is called Time for First Principles Reset on Immigration, Canada needs dedicated integration laws for immigration, which should not replace fertility, families, and generation renewal. It's a mouthful but an important conversation. Thank you very much, my friend. There are streaming services, and then there's Stack TV. What you want, when you want it.

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