The Ben Mulroney Show - Ben asks are Police Officer's hands tied when it comes to stopping these disruptive protests?

Episode Date: February 24, 2025

Guests and Topics: -Protests on a Residential Street with Guest: Caryma Sa’d, Lawyer, Protest watcher  -Ford slammed by rivals over comments about Ontario's ERs with Guest: Dr. Brett Belchetz, ER Physician, CEO of getmaple.ca If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! https://globalnews.ca/national/program/the-ben-mulroney-show Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I've got this condition where I don't feel pain. You're a superhero. If this is how intense Nova Kane sounds... Oh, wow! ...imagine how it looks. Is there more? Yeah, big time. Nova Kane, only in theaters March 14th.

I'm like so worried about my sister. You're engaged. You cannot marry a murderer. I was sick, but I am healing. New season on W Network and StacTV. The West Side Ripper is back. If you're not killing these people, then who is? That's what I wanna know.

Starring Kaylee Cuoco and Chris Messina. The only investigating I'm doing these days is who cooped up the pants. Killer messaged you yesterday? This is so dangerous, I gotta get out of this. Based on a true story. New season Mondays only on W. Stream live and on demand on Stack TV.

Happy Monday everybody. Thank you so much for listening. You may be listening to us on CFPL in London or on 640 Toronto in the aforementioned Toronto. You may be listening on the iHeartRadio app or you may have found us in podcast form. Wherever you listen to us, we say thank you. We truly appreciate you joining us

and joining this conversation. Well, it's been a thing with all this snow, with all this snow that is not going anywhere. Now a little bit of it has melted, but it's still clogging up our streets, making it harder to get around. And we already have a problem with congestion in this city, to the point that over the course of the summer and over the course of TIFF, actors, performers, musicians, every time somebody was somewhere around Union Station and they needed to make their way to Scotiabank,

these celebrities had to get out of their cars and walk to the arena because the traffic was making it impossible to get there on time. Well, it's happened again. And this time an entire hockey team had to get out of their car, had to get out of their bus to make it down to Scotiabank. The Carolina Hurricanes had to, because they were in the middle of a traffic jam, they got out of their bus and walked to the Maple Leafs game.

This is an embedded list. The first time it happened, it was cute. The second time it happened, it was cute. The second time it happened, it was, oh, Toronto being Toronto. Now it is, I mean, it's unacceptable. This is the fact that you can't get from Front Street to Scotiabank Arena in a car or a bus because of the traffic.

I have no idea why they haven't fixed this yet. There should be traffic cops down there forcing pedestrians to stay where they are, letting cars get through, because that to me is the biggest problem with that issue. But I don't think it's gonna get fixed anytime soon. Something that won't get fixed anytime soon either, obviously the snow.

But one man decided to take matters into his own hands and clean the snow from the streets. He was done seeing no action from the city. And let's listen to him in his own words. I don't know about you, but I've been absolutely embarrassed by the city the past week. They haven't made any effort whatsoever to clear intersections of snow and ice or transit stops. I can't even imagine being somebody with a mobility issue trying to get around the city right now. They must be going through hell.

Some of this stems back to John Tory, of course, and contracts that he signed with snow removal companies that just are not doing the work and are taking advantage of the city's coffers. But anyway, sometimes you just have to do it yourself to help out your community, to help out yourself. Like I don't wanna be walking through snow and ice. So grabbed a shovel and went at it. Yeah, good for this guy. Good for this guy, cause he's right.

There are so many people within our city or in our community who have mobility issues. They might have, they might be visually impaired. They might be in a wheelchair. They might simply use a walker. They might be a parent who They might be in a wheelchair. They might simply use a walker. They might be a parent who's pushing a stroller. In all those cases, their ability to get around this city has, if not been paralyzed completely,

then at least severely mitigated and tamped down. The fact that the city is not on this right now is a travesty, an absolute travesty. Now this guy is in good shape. If you watch the video, you can see he's a healthy, robust guy. However, in Newmarket, 34 people were treated for heart attacks because they were shoveling the snow

on their property. 34 people exhibited what the doctors believed were symptoms of heart attacks because of this. No, that's how significant this issue is. And as serious as it was for them, I wish the city would take it that seriously as well, but they haven't. I have no idea what it's gonna take.

I've said it before, I will say it again. This is a city that takes serious issues unseriously. This is a very serious issue for this city. Congestion, getting around, people being stuck in their cars, whether it's due to construction, whether it's due to lane closures, whether it's due to bike lanes, whether it's due to anything.

Now you add snow to the mix and it's just getting worse. This city is not living up to its promise and it's going to take a long time before it does. And another, another issue that gives me pause and it disappoints me greatly because my kids are being educated in the TDSP is the TDSP is the TDSP is moving ahead with plans to erase Sir John A. Macdonald, Edgerson Ryerson and

Dundas from Toronto schools. There are three schools named after these men and they have decided to go ahead with their plans to put a committee together once the names are erased to pick new names. This is shockingly disappointing. I've said it before, that as the pendulum swings back from the woke insanity that we've been living through as a culture, Toronto, and specifically the TDSB will be the last holdouts. I truly believe that this and specifically the TDSB will be the last holdouts.

I truly believe that this city and the TDSB will fight tooth and nail to keep identity politics alive and well, and this is part and parcel with that. And the shocking, well, one of the shocking and sad things is that no one was consulted. Daniel Tate was on Greg Brady's show a little bit earlier today and here's what he had to say. And I've only learned this recently just by doing the research that I did to get this petition set up to criticize and go against these

three schools that have been renamed. And what was really shocking about this is that they decided unilaterally to rename three schools. They didn't even consult a historian at all. Not only that, they didn't even consult the public. So this was done completely in a vacuum, behind closed doors, for ideological reasons. And the fact that they've also picked on our founding father, Sir John A. Macdonald, should really disgust every Canadian. I mean, I don't know what to say here. If they're going to move ahead with this, I don't know that there's anything that we can do.

But if you are moving ahead with a plan to erase the man that founded this country, without whom there is no Canada, It just does not exist. The vision that he had to bring this country into existence is a feat above all else. And was he perfect? No. Find me one person on earth who is. You can't do it. And as Greg Brady has pointed out, in his town, there is a school named after astronaut Julie Payette, who became our governor general, who has skeletons in her own closet. And that dates back to five, 10 years ago. Why are we judging Sir John A. as well as Ryerson and Dundas from 150 years ago based on the social values of today.

I promise you, 100 years from now, everyone living today will be found lacking from the people 150 years from now. It is a fool's errand, and it is a meaningless test to judge people from a different era based on the values of today. And yet the TDSB, without having consulted any luminaries, any scholars, any historians,

are moving ahead with whitewashing and denying the very history that makes this country a special. It is a shame that they will not easily wash away. One day, cooler heads will prevail at the TDSP and hopefully this can get reversed. I don't see this getting reversed anytime soon. But par for the course in a city like Toronto, can't get the snow removed, but you can get Sir John A's name removed in short order. Well, the pro-Hamas protests that have choked this city for over a year and a half, in my opinion, have reached another low.

Not a new low, another low, not a new low, another low, protesting outside the home of former police chief of the City of Toronto, as well as the current Minister of National Defence, Bill Blair. Now, for context, Bill Blair is a member of what I believe is the most pro-Palestinian government in recent memory. What the words and actions and silence sometimes from this government on where they stand vis-a-vis standing with Israel has been very telling. And despite that, the protesters decided that it was appropriate to to congregate en masse outside of the home of Bill Blair on a residential street in a community for over two hours.

Let's listen to the protests. Bill Blair, what do you say? Bill Blair, what do you say? How many kids did you kill today? How many kids did you kill today? All right, well, that's some classy stuff right there. Well, Karima Saad, who's a lawyer and also a protest watcher was there and she joins us now. Karima, welcome to the show. Hi, good morning. So how many people were there?

There were about 100 protesters or so by the time my team got there. Okay. And and they have to assume 100 protesters a residential street, that takes up a lot of real estate. Definitely, and the road was blocked on either end. There was a fairly heavy police presence, lots of cruisers at least, although the protesters were mostly left to their own devices apart from police creating this buffer around them. Kareem, are there no laws prohibiting protesters from congregating in front of a residential

home and making somebody feel unsafe in their own home? I think there's probably a couple of laws available already on the books. We don't need to make new laws to deal with this that police could have availed themselves of. What comes to mind causing a disturbance, potentially intimidation, blocking a road, is an act of intimidation according to the criminal code. Although there is some nuance when protest is involved,

I think in this case, the overall context would lend itself to people in the neighborhood feeling afraid of what was happening outside. Well, absolutely. I mean, this is, I guess this is a new flank in the protest war that has been gripping our city. And yet the police, so you said the police were there the entire time and what they were just standing there making like what were they doing?

Police were standing there for sure. I didn't really observe or my team didn't observe any interventions with police asking protesters to do anything one way or the other. You know, one thing that is maybe noteworthy, this particular type of demonstration is the kind that is invite only. So, you know, it wasn't advertised broadly on social media. More likely the organizing was happening behind the scenes in group chats where people need

to be vouched for or vetted to participate. But it's certainly not the first time and not even the first protest movement that has targeted politicians at home or where they imagine their home to be. Yeah, you know, we've we've had these discussions before about, you know, politicians being approached when they're in public or when they are out having dinner, out shopping. There's something distasteful. It feels like there's a line being crossed right now. And the fact that the police didn't push back to say,

no, this is a line you're not gonna cross, to me is disappointing. I do believe Toronto police, this isn't a formal statement that they've made, but to my observation, take a path of least resistance approach. So at the point

where there are already 100 or so people gathered somewhere, the idea is, okay, let's have this unfold as peacefully as possible rather than try to stop people from coming gathered somewhere, the idea is, okay, let's have this unfold as peacefully as possible rather than try to move everyone and that may actually have, you know, physical contact

between protesters and police that could otherwise be avoided. So path of least resistance, but I think the cumulative effect of that approach is one where to the average observer, the whole system of law and order seems a bit in disarray. I'm speaking with Kareema Saad. She's a lawyer and a protest watcher, and she and her team were on site for the protest in front of Bill Blair's home. Kareema, I want to play something for you. Greg Brady has a theory that he's operating under about the reason perhaps why these protests are not facing the full force of the Toronto Police Service.

Let's listen. I have had it said to me over and over again by more than enough people that there is clearly police service. Let's listen. this makes sense. I've asked people who work in other police jurisdictions this question. I've asked people within the Toronto police themselves, to a man, to a woman. They are certain that this is the case. Karima, what do you think of Greg's theory? I think it's a pretty strong working theory. You know, I myself have said, and that's without benefit of any internal conversations, that the effect of nonstop constant protest is over time for police and sometimes even new toys. I also think that there are different stakeholders involved.

I think the interests of frontline officers may diverge from what management is prepared to have happen. And those who are frontline, it's not an easy task, policing, but they are subject to verbal abuse, sometimes physical contact, physical abuse, and they're protected by their gun and badge, of course. For the average citizen, then, we get the rawest deal of all. There's no real upshot or benefit. The other thing I would say is looking at the individual

protesters who are involved and some of the patterns that emerge, people who are oft recurring, we can actually draw some through lines between those individuals and elected officials, other individuals and elected officials other Institutions with a bit of power So it makes sense that there would be some sort of buffer from the protesters perspective They would claim to be heavily surveilled and

Criminalized and so it it does matter a bit, one vantage point, I think. Yeah, I certainly hear from frontline officers that there is investigation that happens on the ground during those protests. And I think we have to be very careful to separate sort of the value and the hard work of the frontline officers who are there, the boots on the ground. You're never going to find a greater supporter of those guys than me. But what's going on at the head of that organization should be subject to far more scrutiny and accountability than I think the people of Toronto have gotten. I think we have not heard a fulsome accountability of why these protests are allowed to go on

as they are. Do you think that's ever going to happen? Maybe with some changes in leadership. That's something that's more after the fact. In the meantime, you know, what is the mandate of police and how can that be reconciled with people How can that be reconciled with people exercising their charter rights, but not in a way that oversteps and infringes on other people's rights? That is the core issue here. And as long as there's backdoor politics and intrigue, which is no part of the game, but again, there's a lot of people who are being harmed by the way things are

currently unfolding. Karima, you and your team have been following these protests since day one. Did you ever think they would be they would go on this long? I mean, I started documenting protests with the anti-lockdown freedom convoy movement. So, yes, a little little bit I'm not entirely surprised. My real observation has been that whatever the cause, we still do see the same people out in the streets leading and instigating others. So I can't say that I'm entirely shocked. And so I can't say that I'm entirely shocked. I am surprised at how law enforcement has responded.

Kareem Asad, thank you so much for all your hard work. Thank you for joining us today. We really appreciate it. Thanks for having me. FanDuel Casino's exclusive live dealer studio has your chance at the number one feeling, winning, which beats even the 27th best feeling, saying I do. Who wants this last parachute?

I do. Enjoy the number one feeling, winning, in an exciting live dealer studio, exclusively on FanDuel Casino, where winning is undefeated. 19 plus and physically located in Ontario. Gambling problem? Call 1-866-531-2600 or visit connectsontario.ca please play responsibly. TD Direct Investing offers live support so whether you're a newbie or a seasoned pro you can make

your investing steps count and if you're like me and think a TFSA stands for total fund savings adventure maybe reach out to TD Direct Investing. adventure, maybe reach out to TV Direct Investing. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show. We're taking your calls at 416-870-6400 or 1-888-225-TALK. We're talking about protesters descending on a residential street, taking it over for two hours to protest Bill Blair, our Minister of National Defense, for what they feel are his crimes against the people of Gaza.

Greg Brady, we played his, what he was surmising, he believes that there is a quote unquote handshake deal between the city and the police. They had the police got their funding, their budget. So the city gets sort of hands off on the protesters. It's a good theory, but he put it to the test by asking Hank Itsinga at 640 Toronto's crime specialist what he thinks. You know, I hear all sorts of things regarding that and agreements and silent agreements between the mayor, the police chief, the premier of the province. It all goes around, they're all

interconnected and if you want a real life answer to that question, you look at the cities where protests first erupted months ago and they were immediately quelled and shut down and they're free of the protests and then you look at the cities where that hasn't happened, including Toronto, you've got to wonder what's the difference there? Is it the relationship between the chief and the mayor? And we know that started out as an antagonist relationship.

Yeah, but now we see all of a sudden, acquiescence to this $1.2 billion budget for the police service and you got to wonder what's going on in the back rooms here what type of communication is being held. Yeah and that's why I think we are lacking in accountability we do not know what the marching orders of the Toronto Police Service actually are. Let's so we're taking your calls 416-870-6400 and let's say hi to Mike. Mike, welcome to the Ben Mulroney show. Good morning, Ben. Morning. To to it was kind of like chuckled

and all I could think of yesterday watching that protest was karma. And there you go. Obviously, though, it wasn't great for the people who live in the neighborhood and I would be probably furious about that but uh along with Mr Brady's theory I I have no problem believing that I don't know what the people of Toronto expected when they elected Olivia Chow I mean you can see all this stuff coming a mile away you have a situation with snow removal that she has a press conference talking about what affordable housing for artists. This is going to happen until somebody like your friend Mr. Fury, when he gets elected as Mayor of Toronto in the next election, cleans all this stuff up, makes the police do their job or or at least the police chief do his job and return back to common sense.

Hey Mike, thank you so much for the call. I appreciate it. Let's welcome Cam to the Ben Muller Renew Show. Cam, thank you so much for the call. I appreciate it. Let's welcome Cam to the Ben Mulroney Show. Cam, thank you so much for calling in. What do you think about this? So a federal minister's house was protested at on a residential street. Where is the federal minister of Islamophobia in all this? What is the explanation? And hasn't she explained or get up in front of the protesters and say go home

we don't recognize Hamas as the leader of the Palestinian people and if you don't remove yourselves bring out the batons yeah well I mean cops well let's not forget this is the same liberal government that said they want they wanted to recognize a Palestinian state and if they want if you're going to recognize a Palestinian state then you have to recognize the people who are in charge of it and the people in charge of it are Hamas so that they would be de facto recognizing Hamas as the leaders of that nation if you will. Stuart thank you so much for calling into the Ben Mulroney show. Hey Ben, how are you? I'm well, thank you. Good, I live at Bathurst and Shepherd. I see this every week.

There's no doubt in my mind that our cosplay chow mayor has a deal with them too. Because notice one thing about the protesters, when Taylor Swift was in town, no protest. When chow goes somewhere, no protest. She has to deal with them. They leave her alone and they led it. And she lets them do whatever they want to do. The fact that they're coming into a residential area week after week after

week antagonizing the police are there in full force and they basically sit and talk to each other. They do nothing. Like you've seen enough of the videos. I'm sure that have been sent to you on Twitter. Like it is literally the city is a complete mess under her lack of leadership. And you know shame on us for anybody ever voting for her. But also let's take one other shot at Doug Ford government, because the Solicitor General is the MPP of our riding. And he's done absolutely nothing.

Well, you know, and that's that I guarantee you that the frontline police officers, the ones who are there, they they want to enforce the law, I have to I have to believe that that's why you get into law enforcement, because you want to enforce the law. And it's got to be very frustrating for so many of these men and women in uniform who go out there and put on the uniform every day, and they just have to be spectators while mobs take over parts of our city. And you're absolutely right, Stuart, it's important to note

that this happened in a residential area, and it's of, Stuart, it's important to note that this happened in a residential area. And it's of note not because it's in a residential area, it's of note because it's a federal cabinet minister. Because let's be honest, the protesters have been doing this in Jewish neighborhoods for months, deliberately going in and making people feel unsafe about where they live and telling people we can get to you wherever you are. I want to hear from you 416-870-6400 or 1-888-225-TALK. I really want to know, I really want to know what is going on with the accountability. Why can't we get answers from either the police or city hall as to what the police's marching orders are?

Let's listen to that protest one more time because it bears repeating. Listen, if it were up to me, I'm going to tell you what I think and I want to hear from you at 416-870-6400 or 1-888-225-TALK. If it were up to me, a show of force, at least once, where you arrest everybody for disturbing the peace, every one of them, bring out the paddy wagon, throw them all in there and make it's a show of force to let people know this is the line in the sand. You shall not cross it. And if you do, this is what happens. Unfortunately, what's been happening for over a year and a half is the police have been sitting, standing idly by because they do not want things to escalate. The problem is if the police don't escalate, the protesters will

and we've seen it in action where they are emboldened to take increasingly intimidating tactics because they know nothing will happen to them. Bill, welcome to the Ben Mulroney show. Hello. Hello, welcome. Yes, it's Phil. Sorry. Oh, Phil. So Ben, I mean, I live at Bathurst and Shepherd, I guess ground zero of this. And the bottom line is really this. This isn't being done really to protest anything political. This is being done deliberately to intimidate and bully the Jewish community. Yeah, of course. I have, I'm in perfect sync with everything that Israel's doing because she's merely defending herself and ensuring her viability and survival.

The fact that these people could come out after seeing those hostages returned and the barbarism that was performed and the family that was killed, was, was killed, two young babies strangled. I mean, it is absolutely deplorable and disgusting. And, and, and one, one thing worse than not arresting these people, because surely this is a flagrant, uh, we wouldn't allow Ku Klux Klan people to go and

start bullying and, and, you know, in, in, you know in color, people of color neighborhoods and the other thing is the catch-and-release which goes beyond the Solicitor General and goes to the Attorney General. Yeah you're absolutely right. There are consequences and there are no consequences. Phil thank you so much for your call we got time for one more let's say hi to Max. Max thank you for calling in. Thank you morning I have only the nastiest things to say about the pro-Palestinian camp. But my question is, and I don't know if you can answer this,

I'm not sure if you can, it would be a lawyer to really weigh in on this. We're talking, what is it, 16 months now since all this started? And the standards have been set. The laws that exist are not being enforced. And for them to be like, oh, you're gonna start arresting us now.

I could see them easily trying to make the case and winning the fact that there's been no enforcement of laws that are already in place to guard against this kind of thing. Yeah. You're absolutely right. And where does that go? Thanks, Ben. Have a great day. Thank you so much.

Yeah, he's absolutely right. This is, if you, what's the point of having the police if the police don't use their powers to to give us public safety and and peace in our streets. I want to thank everybody for calling in. At Desjardins, we speak business, we speak equipment modernization, we're fluent in data digitization and expansion into foreign markets. And we can talk all day about streamlining manufacturing processes. Because at Desjardins Business, we speak the same language you do, business. So join the more than 400,000 Canadian entrepreneurs who already count on us and contact Desjardins today. We'd love to talk business.

Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney Show. Thank you so much for spending time with us on this Monday morning. The Ontario Provincial Election is in full swing. We'll be going to the polls on Thursday. We'll have a new government by then. But the talk of the town is health care. And Doug Ford has been slammed by his rivals over comments about emergency rooms. He suspected that one of the reasons our emergency rooms are so clogged and the wait times are so abysmal is because a number of people are going to the emergency room who do not require ER attention that what they have their ailment does not rise to the

level of ER attention and so rather than first of all we're gonna take the politics out of this it's this is not about the election this is about a question is this true and so we're gonna talk to somebody who actually works in an ER, an ER physician, and the CEO of Get Maple.ca Dr. Brett Belchetz. Dr. Welcome to the show. Good morning. Thank you for having me. So what do you make of this? I have to assume that some people do end up in an ER that don't belong there. But is it so many that it is causing a choke point? so many that it is causing a choke point? Well, this is one of those questions where the answer is not as simple as it would appear. And that is largely because not all emergency rooms

are created equal. We have very different experiences in emergency rooms across the province. So in a busy downtown emergency room, it is not the same set of issues that would be faced by a rural emergency room, say in Northern Ontario. And the reality is, you know, when we look at the causes of why a waiting room would be clogged, uh,

the statement that it is due to minor illnesses probably would be very true in rural Ontario, where, uh, you know, I've worked throughout rural Ontario working in emergency rooms. And what I've seen when I'm there is that a huge percentage of the cases that are in those emergency rooms are people coming in and treating the emergency'm there is that a huge percentage of the cases that are in those emergency rooms are people coming in and treating the emergency room as a family practice. Why are they doing that?

That's because they have nowhere else to go. Well, exactly. And that, doctor, I think that bears, like let's pause there and talk about that. The fact that so many Ontarians do not have a primary care doctor, a family doctor, means that if they have something wrong with them, they're gonna go to the lowest friction point to see a doctor, which is doctor means that if they have something wrong with them, they're going to go to the lowest friction

point to see a doctor, which is probably the emergency room. That's absolutely true. People need help. And when they're worried about their own health, or the health of their kids, they're not thinking, is it appropriate for me to go to the emergency room? What they're thinking is, this is the only place that is available. And that's where I'm going to go. Now, the good news is, and this is why it is frustrating how politicized this is, the good news is that this is a relatively easier part

of the emergency room problem to solve. There are great solutions even being used in other parts of the country. If you look at Nova Scotia where they've used technology extensively to solve for this, they've achieved a 10% reduction in the number of emergency room visits for lower acuity issues.

Dr. Dr. talk to me about those technology choices that Nova Scotia has made that we could import to Ontario. So a great example is, you know, in the space that I work in, Nova Scotia has implemented something called virtual primary care. So essentially what they did is they put in place a program where every single person in the province of Nova Scotia, who does not have access to a family doctor, is put into a program where they are cared for by a group of family doctors who provides them with virtual primary care. So basically any day of the week, they can come in and get their primary care needs met.

70% or so of those issues are going to be fully addressed in that virtual primary care clinic. And then that system allows for them to be seen in person at family doctors clinics when they can't be fully cared for virtually. It works really, really well. And the people on that program are very happy and it has taken huge strain

off of their emergency room system. Yeah, but as an emergency room doctor, the workload for you and your team and people like you across this province must be incredible, the strain that you guys are under. It must be frustrating when people do come in and what ails them is not something that should be treated in the ER, but you have an obligation to care for them. Well, I would say it doesn't frustrate me as much as it used to. And I think, you know, in the early days of working

in the emergency room, I would get very frustrated when I would see people coming in and thinking that, you know, you should have seen your family doctor. But the more I speak to these patients, the more I understand that the reason that they're there really is cause they have nowhere else to go. But I will say that in urban emergency rooms, the number one reason for crowding is, is not that issue. In an urban emergency room, the number one reason why your emergency room is usually quite crowded is that

we don't have enough beds in the hospital. We haven't figured out ways to discharge patients from the hospital inpatient beds, which means that the really sick patients that in the emergency room, when they need to be admitted, there's nowhere for them to go into the hospital and bit by bit, they clog up the emergency room. And when there's no beds for a doctor to see you

and in the emergency room, that means you're gonna have a clogged up waiting room and very long wait times. Wait, so doctor, you're saying that the issue is that we've got people in the hospital who've been in a bed and we don't know how to discharge them? That is the biggest issue I think that we face in our system. It's that we have hospitals that are on an ongoing basis. And this is in urban emergency rooms.

Remember, I said this is not a simple issue. We have different problems in different hospitals. So again, this is why I frown on anybody that says there's a one size fits all simple. No magic bullet. Exactly, it's nuanced. But what we see in an urban emergency room is that almost all of them, the hospitals,

are operating at over 100% capacity for their inpatient units, which means that every bed is full. And the biggest reason why every bed is full is that in a hospital setting when we have inpatients once a patient is stabilized the ideal thing is for us to be able to discharge them from hospital not to home because most patients after a few days of care are not safe to go home but the ideal thing is to discharge them to a lower level of care where they can still get help from nurses and help from

personal support workers and all the things they need without that high intensity of medical care that you would get in the hospital. And we do not have that for the most part in Canada. Across Canada, there is generally nowhere other than home to discharge patients to, which means that patients have to wait days and days and days, sometimes weeks, sometimes months, until they're physically able to go home

without any support. And that is, I think, the biggest issue in our system. And the choice that the hospital is making, they look at the situation that the patient is in and they say, all right, it makes more sense to keep them here rather than send them home because there isn't that middle ground. Is that what you're saying? Exactly. So if I'm treating somebody who's 85 years old, who I've treated their acute medical issue, but they're too weak to get up out of bed. There's nothing new for me to

treat medically, but I can't send somebody home alone to their apartment who is 85 years old and can't sit up out of bed. I need a facility where it's not acute medical care, but where somebody can take care of their basic needs until they're strong enough to actually live independently. And we're missing that. How big of a puzzle piece is this middle ground that we're talking about here? How many of these facilities would we have to build

in Ontario to solve this very specific problem that you've brought up of not being able to discharge people quick enough? I don't have an exact number for you, but I think the critical thing here to note is that it is much, much cheaper to build facilities like that than to build more hospitals. And it does seem in our systems across the country,

the answer is always let's build more hospitals rather than build those cheaper facilities. So I think, you know, I'd love to be able to speak to you at a later date and give you the exact numbers, but I think just logically, when we're trying to get the most value out of every dollar that we spend in healthcare, let's spend it where it's cheaper to build beds, cheaper to service beds,

which is a lower level of care facility than building whole new hospitals, which are again, just going to fill up with the same issue. So they so what the answer is, if I can synthesize, is technology to get people in the door and facilities that are a middle ground between the home and the hospital to get people out the door. That's the solution. That is a huge part of the solution, yes. Dr. Brett Belchetz, thank you so much for joining us and giving us a lay of the land.

My pleasure, thanks for having me. Daniel Blanchard is no ordinary thief. His heists are ingenious. His escapes defy belief. And when he sees the dazzling diamond CC Star, he'll risk everything to steal it. His exploits set off an intercontinental manhunt. But how long can CC Star stay lucky for Daniel? I'm Seren Jones, and this is a most audacious heist. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts.