The Ben Mulroney Show - Ben discusses where Justin Trudeau goes from here

Episode Date: December 17, 2024

Where does the Trudeau government go from here -Singh urges PM to quit after Freeland resigns — but doesn’t say if he'll vote non-confidence with Guest: Kevin Vuong, Independent Member of Parliament  -Liberals tight-lipped about caucus meeting that capped chaotic day in Ottawa with Guest: Bryan Passifiume, National politics reporter for the Toronto Sun -The Chaos inside the Liberal Party right now with Guest: Marcel Wieder, Liberal Strategist, President and Chief Advocate of Aurora Strategy Global -Feds deliver fall economic statement with $61.9B deficit for 2023-24, amid political turmoil with Guest: Kris Sims, Alberta Director Of The Canadian Taxpayers Federation If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! https://globalnews.ca/national/program/the-ben-mulroney-show Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Enjoy

We're here on the Chorus Radio Network and we are exploring what happened in Ottawa from all angles today. We just looked at the fall economic statement. We talked with a journalist who was in lockup awaiting that fall economic statement. And now we're going to talk to an MP who has been a staunch critic, when appropriate, of this government. And I think, honestly we saw what we saw yesterday they deserve a fresh raft of criticism uh independent member of parliament kevin vong welcome to the show my friend thanks so much for being here thanks for having me ben have you ever seen a day like yesterday no not at all it's insane yeah for sure freeland not only stabbed

justin trudeau not in the back, but in the front for all Canadians and the world to see. And at a time where we need to show unity, when we're facing probably the biggest economic threat in a generation, Donald Trump's post about her resignation confirms that he definitely saw it. All right. So that brings up where I want to take this conversation. I think already a poll suggested prior to yesterday that eight out of 10 Canadians, 80% of Canadians want Justin Trudeau, want this government gone.

It's long in the tooth. It's bereft of ideas. And it has been detrimental to our economic well-being. And a lot of people just don't have a whole lot of faith that Justin Trudeau can do what he's got to do come January on this tariff thing. So let's listen to what the leader of the NDP had to say about what Justin Trudeau should be doing next.

I hear it everywhere I go. People cannot find a home that they can afford. They can't buy their groceries. And on top of that, we have Trump threatening tariffs at 25%, which put hundreds and thousands of Canadian jobs at risk. And instead of focusing on these issues, Justin Trudeau and the Liberals are focused on themselves. They're fighting themselves instead

of fighting for Canadians. And for that reason, today, I'm calling on Justin Trudeau to resign. He has to go. Okay. All fair. That makes sense. I honestly think that this infighting is going to lead to even lower poll numbers, Kevin, for the Trudeau liberals. But Singh was then, there was a follow-up question that was asked of him. Let's listen to this. Will you declare no confidence in the liberal government as soon as possible? All tools, all options are on the table yeah we don't need to hear anymore anymore once you hear that you know he's not going to do anything he's not going to do anything so kevin my question is if well my statement followed by my question is this if he resigns

then we as a country have to sit here while the liberal party gets their house in order with a leadership race when we should be focused on donald trump i personally think we should short circuit the whole thing and just go to an election yeah and let's be honest the ndp are not going to be the ones to will act even though this has really put them in a corner and jagmeet singh needs to stop this duplicitous shell game that he's trying to play listen ben i always knew the p and ndp stood for pro drugs pro needles and pro crime but apparently it also stands for pretzel because the ndp seemed to hate justin trudeau they call him too weak but apparently not weak enough to lose the ndp support and we heard yesterday jagmeet

singh twists himself into a pretzel in spite of all of the media trying to push him. Like, what does it mean when he says all options are on the table? We heard it when he ripped up the agreement and yet continued to support him. And as we sit here and discuss this, what must Trump be thinking of our illustrious government. How weak must he think we are? I mean, think about it for a second, Kevin. The U.S. government is stable and responsible compared to what's going on in the clown car that is the Trudeau government. We are in chaos.

We are in shambles. And they look like the adults in the room. It's embarrassing yeah and and you know what during the chaos in ottawa yesterday there was captain canada he wasn't in in ottawa he was in toronto and thank goodness that we have the premiers coming together to step in and fill that vacuum of leadership and right now now, Captain Canada, in my mind, is Premier Doug Ford. It was wild. Wild for me to sit and watch

all the premiers give him props for stepping up. I want to go back to this because this notion that it would be okay. We're living in a very unique time in that we're up against the clock here. Those tariffs are coming in. We have to assume that it is a certainty very unique time in that we're up against the clock here. Those tariffs are coming in.

We have to assume that it is a certainty that we are going to get slapped with 25% tariffs. And the fact that the liberal government would think that before we deal with that, we have to deal with a matter that is far more pressing for the, for the Canadian government and the Canadian people. We got to figure out who our next leader might be. Like if, if he decides to resign,

that's not a Canada problem. That's a liberal problem. Take your, if you've got a mess at home, deal with it on your own time. Give us a, give us an election so that somebody can pick up the mantle with a real mandate and go toe to toe with this guy who is going to defend his country

as fiercely as we need our leader to defend ours. Exactly. Cause right now, one of the core issues behind the Trump trade tariff is the border. And you were saying earlier that the best indication of what a government's priorities are is how they spend their money. In the fall economic statement, they have one point, you know, over a billion dollars for the border spread over six years. So how seriously are they taking the issue of the border? Not nearly as seriously as they're taking gender environmental studies in South America, something like that. I read that that was a line item in the budget.

Yeah, we spend more money on international development. I remember there was an Iraqi youth employment program, $10 million. I'm sure they deserve employment just like everyone else, but I'm sorry. There are Canadians that are unemployed right now, young people unemployed in Toronto that I would rather prioritize first. Once we fix all that and our issues in our country, sure, let's look around the world. But let's start with the issues at home and we need a government who will prioritize canadians kevin what is life like for an mp during the christmas holidays because everyone's going to be going home now and i gotta

wonder whether these uh these mps are going to get an earful from their constituents and also their family members about what's going on in Ottawa. I wonder whether pressure is going to be brought to bear on these, on MPs in the liberal caucus who are maybe on the fence or maybe don't know what they're supposed to do. And I wonder whether they're going to come back to Ottawa after this holiday with information in their head that they don't have right now. Like the situation on the ground could change in January just by virtue of everyone going home and having their own separate conversations.

Yeah, and I think that's probably what Justin Trudeau and his team are hoping for. They are going to run out the clock today. There's no vote. And then the House breaks for the holidays and doesn't resume till January 27th. That's a lot of time. And so I don't know how many Liberal MPs are as excited as I am to go and join my constituents for holiday parties because they're going to get an earful about what are you doing? Why are you continuing to prop up this guy? And that probably is why we're hearing reports now of as many as 70 Liberal MPs who have signed yet another letter, allegedly for justin trudeau but it remains to be seen if they're going to publish it and actually write their name to it because the last letter didn't seem to have

anybody's names but see that that's why i don't think they're looking forward to this i think i think a lot of these people who are either on the fence or uh or privately have a problem with justin will come back a little more aggressively anti-Justin after the holidays. But a number of them are still hedging their bets because you got to remember there are, I think, close to a dozen cabinet seats available. And I wish I could say that. But cabinet seat for how long? What's the value of that? It's a Pyrrhic victory. I know, but see, you and I here prioritize Canadians, but there are people who want to be able to have the Honourable

beside their name for the rest of their lives. Forever short, they are a cabinet minister. It is a lifetime honorific, and it's honestly disgraceful that that is their overriding priority, but for some people, that's what matters. Oh, boy. Well, that is disappointing to hear, my friend. Hey, Salida Cesar Chavan was asked on an earlier radio show what her prediction was come January.

Here's what she had to say. I always get these wrong. I always get these predictions wrong, but I am going to say, again, I'm going to put my faith in the humanity of someone who gives me very little faith and say that come January, he is going to step down. Five seconds, my friend. What's your response? What's your prediction? I don't think so. He still has pro-rogue.

He still has the cabinet shuffle in his deck of cards, and I think he's going to run out the clock. trying to get the updates in real time as to what was going on during this chaos-laden day that started with the surprise of all surprises of Chrystia Freeland resigning her post as finance minister just hours before she was slated to read the fall economic update that she really did not co-sign. And that led to a chain of events where for a while we didn't have a finance minister. Ultimately, Dominique Leblanc picked up the mantle and Justin Trudeau lived to fight another day, despite calls from within his caucus and from without, calling for him to either resign or call an election. And so that was the feeling that I was experiencing on the outside looking in. But there is a particular protocol when one of these documents is set to be made public. Journalists are brought to a set location and they go into what's called lockup, where they are then supposed to read the document and they're given updates on the document. They're able to read it.

I believe there is sort of a blanket communications ban, so they can't be tweeting it out until they are told at a specific time that communication can begin. And that's when people like me and you hear that information from them we're joined now by the national politics reporter for the toronto sun brian passifium who is one of those journalists in lockup brian welcome to the show hey good day okay so give our listeners just a sense of what what what a lockup how a lockup typically goes yeah see i they used to be very sort of regimented things like you come in in the door they got a big Rubbermaid tote you toss your phone in you know it that gets locked out like literally locked up and told until the embargo

lifts and journalists gather in a room they have to get hard copies of the report there's a big table of experts that they can talk to if you have any questions just get on deep background yeah and pretty much you know reporters got five or six hours to read the documents write their stories and as soon as like in the case of budget or the financial statement they pretty much are locked in that room and they don't get access to their phones until the until the finance minister rises in the House to deliver the budget or the statement or whatever. So, Brian, so yesterday, what time did you arrive for lockup?

Well, I was boarding the bus to the lockup just around the same time that news broke that Freeland had resigned, which I was kind of like, okay, is this still going to happen or what? So I get to the thing. The embargo was supposed to begin at 10 a.m. 10 a.m. comes and goes. We get an announcement a little later from a staffer saying that the lockup has been delayed for an indeterminate amount of time, and, of course, everybody just kind of looks at each other. A lot of the reporters bail. And you still have your phone at this point.

They haven't thrown it into a bin. Yeah, they don't do that anymore. Now it's just that you've got to raise your right hand and promise that you won't do these kind of things. They can't keep that out there. So you're learning about all of this stuff in real time as well as we were on the air yesterday. And the staffers, the finance staffers that were there were just as confused as everyone else. It was an extraordinary day. And were you able to glean any information? For example, we were sitting here watching this happen and snowball. And in very short order

it sort of occurred to us here at the radio station that we were witnessing something that was snowballing out of control of the government. And it could go in any number of directions. What was the feeling like for you in that place? It's like the entire city glitched for two hours. Everybody was calling the sources, sources had no clue what was going on. I had, I had, I had a communication staff and political parties contacting me to see if I knew what was going on, which I've never had before. So yeah, it was the, the entire, the entire town was just completely turned upside down.

Nobody from the top down, well, I guess not the top down, but staffers, MPs, reporters had no clue what was going on. They didn't know if this statement was going to land, who was going to deliver it or anything. It was bizarre. And we also, it was one of those days that was so chaotic that people like myself were willing to entertain all manner of rumor. For example, there was a rumor out there yesterday that two more cabinet ministers were going to resign. That did not come to pass, but I'm sure you heard that as well.

Well, and that's the thing. Sean Frazier announced yesterday morning, and if it wasn't for Freeland, this would probably still be part of the news cycle now. No one really cares that he had resigned. Yeah, there were talks that there were supposed to be two more to resign, but I think they wisely decided not to. I heard rumors that the prime minister was locked in his office sobbing, and it was just the rumor mills were grabbed.

Right. That's when you know the wheels have fallen off, when you're open to the most wild of speculation. And that's the problem when you don't release information. You let those kinds of things fester, and that's exactly what happened. And that's exactly what happened yesterday. We were getting no word from anybody, and the rumors take over. And so clearly the prime minister is now in a weakened state.

There are people speaking on the record in a way that they hadn't before. And people are going home to their ridings to be with their families, to possibly meet with their constituents as well. Part of me thinks there's a very real possibility that he's going to be even more weak after this Christmas holiday. Well, and that's the thing.

The National Caucus has their Christmas party tonight, and I would love to be the, the, the national caucus has their Christmas party tonight. And I would love, would love to be a fly on the wall there. What goes on there, but you're right. You know, the, you know,

it's going to be a very challenging holiday for a lot of people, including the prime minister who I've, you know, sources have said that he's, he's, he's kind of taken this to heart and he's going to spend the holiday to decide what to do. So,

you know, where we've still got Trudeau's prime minister probably until the new year. Yeah, but I just can't imagine that an MP goes back to their riding and doesn't get an earful from some of their constituents or from that drunk uncle at Christmas who says, what the hell are you doing still sticking around here? Absolutely. I envision some very lonely Christmas dinners this holiday. Yeah, no, this is, I haven't seen anything like this in my time. You've been covering politics for a while. What's the closest

memory that you have that resembles the chaos that you saw yesterday? A lot of people are drawing parallels to Deef and Baker's caucuses. You're going to go back to Deef? I'm not old enough to remember that. I'm only 47. not old enough to remember that I'm only 47. The closest I can remember is maybe Paul Martin. But that doesn't come anywhere close to what we've seen yesterday. Well, Chris Selle made a good point in his column yesterday, which are today where he said a lot of people are saying there's no mechanism for us to remove the prime minister. But but that doesn't mean that mps aren't powerless there's a lot that they can do if they truly have the courage of their convictions and want to express their their need

for fresh blood at the top there are things that they can do the liberal caucus is split you know you've got people you got the detractors you've got the people who are you know are more and more publicly calling you know calling on them to step down but there's a lot of true believers in caucus ruby sahota the chief government whip m MP in Brampton, my beautiful hometown, she, you know, I was there last night. She plainly said that, you know, the caucus is confident in the PM. I'm confident in the PM. And she claimed that nobody asked him to step down last night during the meeting,

which I'm not sure if that's exactly true. But, you know, there's true believers in the caucus, and they're the ones who are empowering Trudeau to stick around. Well, Brian, game this out for me, because the fall economic statement was dropped yesterday, but talk to me about the procedure that has to happen next. Well, it's going to be interesting. Today's the last day of the sitting. I don't think there's going to be a whole lot of business today. It was already established that there was not going to be a debate about this. The Conservatives tried to get a debate. It's not like, you know, there's no confidence vote,

whether there's no debate. There was supposed to be an equal time debate yesterday, but there was no finance minister to deliver it. So, you know, it just kind of went nowhere. But, yeah, the fall economic statement was supposed to be the news of the week, but it got completely eclipsed. So it's going to be an interesting Christmas for everybody here in Ottawa. Yeah, Brian, Brian Passifoom, national director, politics reporter for the Toronto Sun.

Thank you so much for your unique insights on this. I appreciate it. Anytime, Ben. Merry Christmas. Merry Christmas. Well, the carnival that we all enjoyed yesterday in Ottawa, carnival of chaos. We've been looking at it from all angles today on the Ben Mulroney show. We looked at it from the perspective of one of the journalists who was in

lockup awaiting the fall economic statement. We've talked to an MP about his take, what's going to happen when these guys go home and they talk to their constituents and then they come back in January. We've talked about it from the perspective of the taxpayers for the actual fall economic statement and what is in it. Well, now we're joined by somebody who knows the Liberal Party intimately and someone with whom I share both a friendship as well as a professional relationship. I'm joined by Marcel Weider, liberal strategist and president and chief advocate of Aurora Strategy Global.

Marcel, great to have you back on the show. Thanks so much, Ben. So listen, we were all some of us were enjoying it. Some of us were in awe. Some of us couldn't believe what we were seeing yesterday, our heads were exploding. What were you thinking? Take me through your feelings of the day. Yeah, when I got that email or that Twitter notice at 9.07 or 9.08, I was shocked.

This was a torpedo directed at the prime minister from his deputy prime minister from his finance minister it really was devastating and it sent the liberal party into a tailspin and that tailspin continues even this morning still a lot of confusion a lot of people don't know what's going on notwithstanding that they had the caucus meeting last night the prime minister tried and reassure and shore up support. A lot of people came out of that caucus meeting stone-faced and not giving any comment. And so as a result, people were, you know, just still not sure what's happening.

Tonight, there's a Christmas party for the party. I'm sure a lot of people are going to be talking. A lot of people, activists in the party, have flown into Ottawa to be there. They were there last night, some of them for the Laurier Club reception. Prime Minister made a brief appearance there and said a few words. These are the movers and shakers of the Liberal Party, the financial backbone of the party. That was all what was discussed at that party,

from what I've been told. And now the Christmas party is going to take place. There was supposed to be a rumored cabinet shuffle tomorrow. That, we don't know if that is even going to take place. Because there was also a rumor that yesterday, that a number of at least two other ministers were considering resigning yesterday. Right, no.

And I've heard actually more other ministers were considering resigning yesterday. Right, no. And I've heard actually more than two were considering resigning. So Marcel, I want to bring something up. Chris Selle wrote in the National Post. He said, some liberals were reported consternated by the fact that there was no, quote, mechanism for them to force Trudeau out.

That was earlier this summer. Correct. This was always ridiculous. If you want a leader gone, you just make it happen any way you can. He said, maybe you call up some veterans of the

Creta San Martin Wars for advice. No doubt most of them want Trudeau gone yesterday as well. You make his life miserable. You humiliate him. You make his position

untenable. You know, like Freeland just did pretty much all on her own on Monday. And so when you hear that, yes, there is no mechanism

to get rid of him. That doesn't mean that these MPs are powerless. If, in fact, they decide they want to marshal their resources and take action. Unlike in the UK, where MPs actually get to remove the prime minister, and they've done that in the UK, we don't have that similar system in Canada. But last night, I'm told, and it's being reported in the media, that up to 45 MPs have now signed on to the letter asking for the prime minister to resign. And when you factor

out the cabinet, that's almost 45% of the caucus. Almost half of the caucus is now saying for him to resign. And just because they're going on the holiday break, but that doesn't mean there's going to be a break in conversation. A lot of these MPs are going to be going home and speaking with constituents and family members who hold a lot of sway over them. They're going to let, they'll be able to reflect on this and they're going to be reflecting on it with new polling data. Abacus has,

has released some numbers suggesting that for the first time ever, this Trudeau government has hit a new all-time low in terms of the question that was asked in the survey, does the government deserve to be reelected? And for the first time, it went below 14%, which is already the bottom. It's now at 11. It has never been below 14.

It went from 15 down to 11 over the course of a few days. So I suspect- And it hasn't hit rock bottom by either way. No, I don't think it has either. So if over the course of the few days. So I suspect- And it hasn't hit rock bottom by either way. No, I don't think it has either. So if over the course of the next couple of weeks, these MPs who are off on their own in their constituencies, hearing from people,

but also hearing those numbers, I mean, I don't know that Justin's going to have a very happy new year when everybody comes back to Ottawa. No, he won't. And we're on Kim Campbell type of results. You know, the party could be down to just a handful, may not even qualify for party status if this trend continues. Yeah, I've been joking that they're going to be fighting with the NDP for fourth place, meaning they're not going up. Correct.

They're both trying to see who can claim fourth place from the other one. Absolutely. It looks, and, and this hasn't happened before, you know, it happened only once before is that the block would be the official opposition. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, cause I don't know what it is. There's, there's seemingly for me, it feels like they're staying out of this. Oh, they're, they're rubbing their hands gleefully and watching what's happening.

Yeah. Yeah. Because the, you know, and Trudeau's support in Quebec has tanked. We just had a by-election which got unnoticed, gone unnoticed yesterday out in Vancouver. And the Liberal got decimated. It went from 39 to 16 percent and the Tories doubled their vote. Yes. Now, there are a number of factors, you know, from the provincial election that took place in British Columbia that could have an offsetting effect, etc.

But the point is that this is a third humiliation after what happened in Toronto-St. Paul's and what happened in Montreal and now what's happened in Vancouver. These are the three bulwark places where the Liberal Party needs to win. Montreal, Toronto, Vancouver. These are the three bulwark places where the Liberal Party needs to win. Yeah. Montreal, Toronto, Vancouver. If you don't win in those seats, they don't go anywhere. Okay, so if you were brought in as some sort of emergency dirty dozen to help right this ship in any way you could, just make sure tomorrow is better than today. It sounds like a little lift, but given the free fall, it could be a Herculean effort. What do you tell his team?

What do they have to do? What about messaging? What about strategy? So I think that the problem is the messenger, and the messenger is Trudeau. I think a reset is necessary. And Prime Minister, you've done a great job over nine years. There are certain policies that have benefited Canadians, and you've done well in that. It's time to move on.

That's the first thing, if you want to right the so-called liberal ship. But if you're only concerned with Trudeau and his brand, then you've got to be able to connect with Canadians on a level that I don't think is quite possible. I think the script has already been set and it's over and it's just a matter of execution. Could an address to the nation at Christmastime do anything for him? It's a cynical ploy if he tries to do that. They try and put out messaging over the last little while. They were hoping that this HST rebate would work. It obviously hasn't.

And then they brought in this $250 proposal. Not even in the default economic statement because they couldn't get agreement on that. And so it's left out because they couldn't get agreement on that and so it's left out because uh they they don't feel that they get the votes to to pass it with the ndp and the block opposing it so you know that's that's off the table so so everything that they've tried to do hasn't worked so so so let me just ask this it'll be the final question uh why why don't they just say, okay, we're weak, we're injured, we are at odds with each other. We are going to lose the next election.

It's going to happen. So why not just call the election now, take your lumps, get it over with, and start the rebuild? Why prolong this when you know that every day that you prolong it, you just anger those very people you're trying to bring back into the fold?

It's purely ego and hubris on the part of the prime minister. That's the simple answer, is that he believes that he can, that he beat Harper, he beat Scheer, he beat O'Toole, and he can beat Polyev. And when he gets to an election at his choosing he'll be able to convince canadians that he's still the right choice and you know quietly it's it's as if the emperor has no clothes he can't see uh the forest from the trees uh marcel uh one last question very short answer please uh if an election were held today would you be comfortable voting liberal well i, I've already signaled that I've done work for the party in the past, but I will not be working for them in the future. I happen to love my local MP and will support him.

Okay, I like that. Thank you very much, my friend. I'll see you soon. I appreciate you coming in. Thank you. Lost in the turmoil and chaos and brouhaha. Yes, brouhaha that was yesterday in ottawa was the actual fall economic statement that was supposed to be central to what we were talking about yesterday but we

were worried about you know who the finance minister is and christia freeland's resignation letter and uh was justin going to prorogue Parliament or resign or call an election or make the fall economic statement a confidence vote? All of that really drowned out the raison d'être of the day, the fall economic statement that's coming in the middle of December. So joining us to drill down into it is Chris Sims, Alberta director of the Canadian Taxpayers Federation. Chris, welcome to the Ben Mulroney Show. Thanks so much, Ben. Congratulations on your show. Well, thank you very much. All right, so this is a 270-page document.

It touts what is considered economic victories, namely being the first G7 country in which the central bank cut interest rates and inflation, quote, anchored at 2%, chalking both up to what they call the government's prudent fiscal management. What are your takeaways from this document? That's a violation of language, actually using the term prudent fiscal management with this government.

So to be really clear, they were projecting to have a $40 billion deficit with a B, which is already atrocious. But then they said, oh, we'll have a fiscal guardrail. We promise we won't go more than $40 billion deficit. But they blew right through that. So we now, as taxpayers, are carrying a $62 billion deficit. That is just an astonishing amount of money. And the thing that was bizarre to me, and I was watching the same as you, it was glued to my screen as well, what was so strange is that at one point at 4 o'clock Eastern, the Speaker stands up and he's like, well, I have to stand up right now to interrupt

proceedings and call upon the Finance Minister to present the fall economic statement. And he, like, looks around, and there's no finance minister. So you're right, it was an absolute bizarre day. But at the end of the day, we have got this massive problem of our debt, which is adding to our deficit, which is costing Canadians now, just the interest charges alone on the debt, Ben, are about a billion dollars a week. Well, and Chris, I remember, look, my dad paid a heavy political price for enacting the goods and services tax. But I do remember at one point that it was responsible for billions, each point was responsible

for billions upon billions upon billions of dollars that flowed into the federal coffers then i heard a few months ago that that's all gone that money now goes to servicing the debt every penny of it yeah so that that that thing that was responsible for getting us out of the hole that we found ourselves in that uh you know a former liberal government loves to take credit for. They take credit for it because of the tools that were enacted under my father. And now it's even worse than that. All it's doing is keeping us at zero in terms of the interest on the debt.

Yeah, exactly. So to be clear, folks, when you're out there shopping, like forget about the GST temporary blah, blah, blah over Christmas. Forget that. So usually it's 5% right now is what the goods and services tax is. What Ben's saying here is that when you're at the pill, every nickel of that GST you're now paying is putting it down on the interest on the debt. In fact, we are paying more on the interest on our debt than we do for healthcare. I just finished listening to your last caller

and your last guest it's atrocious what's happening in health care in canada but we're paying more in interest on the debt than we are for health care and and people need to wake up to this you know i always say and i'm not the first person to say it but if you want to see what what matters to a government look at their budget and when you see all these ridiculous line items of money going out the door 100 million here 500 million there 11 11 million there, all of that money, if it were spent more reasonably, would allow us the freedom to not be dealing with this nonsense of paying down the debt in such a fashion. And we could actually invest in healthcare. Yeah, Big time. Or think of another way to actually deliver it that actually helps people and doesn't get them access to a wait list, which has been determined by our courts is not the same

as access to healthcare. But to your point on the fall economic statement or the mini budget or whatever we want to call it, I just really need to show how awful this is. So the Trudeau government, the current Trudeau government, has doubled the national debt. To put that into perspective, think back of all the previous governments. Prime Minister Harper, your dad, the late Prime Minister Mulroney, the first Trudeau, Stephen Baker, all the way down the railroad. All the way down to Sir John A.

Correct. Imagine their governance, the World wars, the Great Depression. Picture their debts. Double them. That is what this current incarnation of the Trudeau government has done. And before somebody comes and says, oh, well, what about the pandemic? Uh-uh-uh. in the year of 2019 before covid they spent more money ben than any one year of the second world war yeah adjusted for inflation and population the problem here is in their spending and you

mentioned that it's more than 200 pages a fiscal fall update has no business being more than 200 pages. A fiscal fall update has no business being more than 200 pages. It doesn't. A major budget usually shouldn't be more than 200 pages. But this government is so obsessed with virtue signaling and DEI and blowing money on nonsense that this is why we have a doubled national debt. Chris, I'm looking at their projections of getting us to budgetary balance. And apparently, you know, we're sitting at a 61, almost $62 billion deficit right now. They project that by 2029, 2030, that should be just above, it should be 23 billion. So halved practically. So what are your thoughts on that? So if the Trudeau government itself went back to its own budget spending projections from 2022,

okay, so imagine two years ago, things were still crazy. That was not an austerity budget. If they went back to those spending projections, Ben. They would balance the budget. So this is the thing. We don't need to sell off Manitoba in order to balance our budgets. This does not need to be crazy levels of reining in. All they need to do is be sensible. You did great coverage of our presentation at the committee saying that we need to defund the CBC.

That's more than a billion dollars right there. And then we at the little stuff the so-called little stuff we just finished watching the trudeau government blow a whole bunch of money on airplane food again treating themselves to four different types of wine while they're in flight to europe it's he just flew down to brazil to lecture all of us about the carbon tax he He actually said, Ben, I don't know if you saw that clip, that we should value paying his carbon tax more than feeding our kids. I saw that. I saw that. I'm looking at a chart now, and this is one of the last things we'll be able to talk about, but new investment by priority area in the 2024 fall economic statement. 81% of new investments over six years, so in those new investments over

six years totaled $24.2 billion, are in clean growth, innovation, and infrastructure. That's nearly $20 billion. I don't know what that is, but I hear clean growth, and I think liberal government, and I think, ah, here we go. Yeah. Yeah. it's probably some sort of gross corporate welfare in a green dress. And we saw this, you know, you and I both lived in Ontario for a long time when we were working up on the hill back and forth to Toronto. And we remember the provincial liberal government there and screwing people over on their hydro bills, because they got into these so called green energy schemes. And unfortunately, this song sounds familiar, and they're doing a similar thing again.

Remember, this same government is going to ban normal vehicles, gasoline and diesel-powered vehicles, within the next 10 years. They're planning on trying to force everyone to buy battery-powered cars. And where is that money going to come from? We don't know. I'll put it this way. In order for everybody to switch their own cars that they have now to a plug-in,

we would need 14 new Can-Do reactors. Each of those suckers, Ben, cost more than, like they cost like $10 billion each. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's wild. We have un-money right now. We have un-money. Hey, Chris Sims, I want to thank you so much for joining us.

I really do hope you come back. I love having you as a guest on the show. Thanks, man. Talk soon.