The Ben Mulroney Show - Ben is sick of all the virtue signaling from our Politicians

Episode Date: March 14, 2025

Guests and Topics: -Ben is sick of all the virtue signaling from our Politicians -GTA casinos surrounded by self-identified problem gamblers, data shows with Guest: Yonah Budd, Corus addictions and counselling expert YonahBudd.com -Should the Government play a bigger role in helping the struggling housing market with Guest: Adrian Rocca, CEO & Founder of Fitzrovia  If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! https://globalnews.ca/national/program/the-ben-mulroney-show Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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With deals this good, everyone wants to be a student. Join for just $4.99 a month. Savings may vary, eligibility and member terms apply. Welcome to the Ben Mulroney Show. We made it $4.99 a month. Savings may vary. Eligibility and member terms apply. Welcome to the Ben Mulroney Show. We made it, guys. It's the end of the week. It's Friday.

Thank you so much for joining us here on the Ben Mulroney Show. You may be listening in London. You may be listening in Toronto. You may be listening on a streaming app or you may be listening on a podcast platform. In any event, no matter how you find us, we're glad you did. And I've got a couple of interesting things happening this weekend. You just heard

Dave Bradley talking about the parade this weekend. And I'm so honored that my sister, Caroline Mulrooney, will be the grand marshal of the St. Patrick's Day parade this year. And you know, look, all things being equal, I don't really attend parades. But in this moment, given the fact that, you know, we are Irish and proud of our heritage and the fact that my dad way back when was the grand marshal of the St. Patrick's Day parade in Montreal, and we had pictures of that. It was a real point of pride for him that he was able to do that. And the fact that Caroline has been invited

to represent herself, represent our family, represent sort of the Irish side of the Mulroonies is I'm so proud, and she asked me to walk with her. And I will be doing that, come rain or shine. So congratulations, Caroline. And I do want to start the show by wishing my wife, Jessica, a very happy birthday. And she is a wonderful, wonderful mother

and wonderful friend and wonderful wife. She is everything that is good. And I hope that she has a day worthy of the happiness that she gives to so many people. All right. Now that that's out of the way, let's talk about our new prime minister. In a couple hours, he will be sworn in as Canada's 24th prime minister. He apparently is going to have a smaller cabinet. I don't know that he needs a big cabinet, because I'm sure in short order,

we will be moving into an election. There's a few changes there that I'm sure he's hoping will signal that he's doing things differently than his predecessor. From what we understand, Mark Holland, who's been the controversial minister of immigration, is out. He was one of Justin Trudeau's friends. And I think he, in recent years, he's been known as just being a really, I don't know, a sour puss on Twitter. I have not liked

his tone. I haven't liked the tenor. I haven't liked the substance. And anyway, he's been told he's out, and he says he's not even running again anyway. I don't know which one came first, but had he been offered a portfolio, maybe he would have stuck around. But there's also Stephen Gui Bo, our former environment minister. He is apparently no longer as sitting as the environment minister. That will probably make a lot of people feel good, people who want to be reintroduced to the Liberal Party. They're considering, they're kicking the tires,

they may wanna vote for the Liberal Party, but the environmentalism of the previous government was too much for them, and this maybe will ratchet it down. However, he is getting, by what a lot of people say, is a promotion as the Quebec lieutenant. And apparently he will wield a heck of a lot more influence in cabinet than he even did before.

And because he is a true believer in the environment, the war on the environment, because he believes that he's a foot soldier in that war. You know, he could be the guy in cabinet who puts up roadblocks for national natural resource projects, we'll have to see. I don't know, we'll have to see. So that's something to look forward to, something we've got to look back on

was the very important meeting that happened in Washington DC yesterday between Ontario Premier Doug Ford and Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick. It was an attempt to reset a highly dysfunctional relationship that is hurting both sides of the border. Here is what Doug Ford said about that meeting with Mr. Lutnick. We feel that the temperature is being lowered.

That's we feel the temperature is being lowered. And we thought we've also agreed that we're going to have another meeting next week. And I think it's going to be very productive as well. meeting next week and I think it's going to be very productive as well. We want the best outcome for both countries. We're part, we're like a family and sometimes there's tension between families but that was an extremely productive meeting and I just want to want to thank you know the Secretary for the opportunity to go in there and stay this long and communicate we shared a tremendous amount of views back and forth. I take Doug Ford at his word I believe that since the beginning of this

trade war he has been an honest broker he has spoken his mind he has been consistent he has not derogated from his message or his core beliefs. And when he speaks, I on this file, I absolutely believe him. So if he says it was good first steps, I'm going to take him at his word and hopefully there will be future steps. Here's what he said. He went on to talk about the quality of the meeting. I can honestly say it was the best meeting I've ever had coming down here. Why do you say that? Why? Well, because I feel we and I keep saying we, we feel like the temperatures come down. How so though? I'm not commenting on their behalf. We also know we're an extremely important

trading partner, I'd say top tier in the world to the United States, and how we can continue working together to support each other. And I know it's still going to be moving forward. And we'll get there. But there's always be bumps in the road. But it was very, very productive. So to be continued, right? As John Oakley said, and I'll never forget, this is one of these things that he said that stuck in my head, you're winning if you're talking. And the fact that the lines of communication are open, whatever you think of

Donald Trump and his administration, this is a good thing. So kudos to the team that went down there, both conservative and liberal alike, and they're working to our benefit. And so I will be cheering them on, as I know a lot of Canadians will be. If you're anything like me, your drive to work every day includes driving past speed cameras.

And there's one very close to my home, and I pay attention to it every morning. And now comes word that Toronto is looking to double the number of speed cameras on city streets. Now, the yearly total of deaths on our streets involving a vehicle has been going down since 2016 when it was 78. In 2024, it was 49. Now, I fundamentally believe that one death involving a car is too many. And it seems to me like these speed cameras are part of the puzzle that is helping

make the streets safer. I hate the impact that a speed camera has on me when I run a foul of it. I do not like it. But it has changed my behavior, especially in these traffic calming areas. What I would like to see is the data that says we are putting these cameras in places

where there is a higher risk of collision, a higher risk of death. That's why we're putting them in. I know that they are a boon for the resources of the city. I know that people get tickets and it makes the city money. Two things can be true at once. All I know is it has changed my behavior. It does make me slow down and I can't be the only one.

I wish to God they didn't exist theoretically, but in practice, I think that they have served towards a positive outcome to make our streets safer. So I wish I could sit here and scream and say, this is just the government coming after our money. Yeah, but they are making me drive slower. So I gotta have the courage of my convictions. I gotta stick with my opinion on this

stuff. And, you know, maybe you disagree with me. Hey, coming up a story that got my blood boiling this morning, I cannot wait to talk about it with you next on the Ben Mulroney show. Welcome back. If you've ever heard me on this show, you you've probably heard me say something to the effect of, in this country, there are serious issues that we do not take seriously. And this next story will demonstrate that we have unserious people who should be tackling very serious issues facing our city that are derelict in their duty. They are failing the city completely.

I mean, this is a level of absurdity, stupidity, and asinine values and a lack of accountability as far as I'm concerned, that should have every Torontonian up in arms. There is a motion that is being discussed at city council. Is it a motion? It's an item, sorry, an item added to the council agenda that's looking to ask for the creation

of an indigenous member of council. Wouldn't be elected, but they'd sit on city council because according to Mayor Chao, we are always open to exploring new ideas to create a more inclusive city for indigenous peoples and all Torontonians as Greg Brady said I can't find fault in a statement like that, but this is not that This is an affront to democracy. It's also an affront in my opinion speaking as someone who is not indigenous

This is an affront to indigenous Torontonians It's straight up And so I want to hear from you at 416-870-6400 or 1-888-225-TALK. Look, this is a move that in no way addresses any of the issues that we have in this city. We have crisis after crisis after crisis. We have budget crunches,

we have programs we can't pay for, the stuff we have is falling apart. We can't remove snow, Mother Nature did it for us, more or less. We had a shooting in and housing crisis. Our taxes are going up, our services are going down. And this is what is being debated as we go forward. And I think that's a very important point that we need to be making about this. And I think that's a very important point

that we need to be making about this. And I think that's a very important point that we need to be making about this. And I think that's a very important point that we need to be making about this. a mental health and housing crisis. Our taxes are going up, our services are going down. And this is what is being debated at city council. For every minute you spend on that, that's a minute you're not spending on the issues

that actually matter and affect Torontonians. The amount of, you're all employed by the city. So if you're talking about this, you're wasting my money. You're wasting my money. And if we take you at your word that we need this, what you're saying is you in your current form as a city councilor have are failing people in this city. And so you want somebody else to come in and pick up the slack. Why aren't you doing this? If there are failures that the city is perpetrating

on Indigenous Torontonians, why aren't you fixing it? You are a city councillor. You are sworn to represent all Toronto. Why aren't you doing it? Why do you need to hire? And this is not an insult. This is a token position of disrespect to an indigenous

person. You're expecting them to focus on indigenous issues? If their job is to focus on indigenous issues, then what you're saying is your job is to focus on anything but indigenous issues. This is so silly, and I mean that in the most insulting way possible. I cannot believe that we are a city as big as we are, as influential as we are, and we have this level of myopic nonsense being talked about by our leaders. I cannot believe this. Nobody asked for San Cofa Square. It didn't make anyone's life better. And there it was. We wasted time and resources on a performative gesture

that helped nobody. And here's another performative gesture by a group of people hell bent, it seems on me, on doing anything but dealing with the issues of the city. Let's hear what you have to say. Anthony, welcome to the Ben Mulroney show. Ben, how are you? I'm well, thank you. Yeah, you're doing a great job. Well, I appreciate it. Listen,

why do we go down this road all the time? I mean, myself, I don't see people being elected based on race. I see color in people I don't see. I don't see color at all, in other words, right? Yeah. Everybody's equal, right? But don't you find, Anthony, don't you find this is an act of division. This is an act, this is designed to divide people. There's nothing uniting about this. There's nothing inclusive about this. This will have the exact opposite effect. This is saying only indigenous people can take care of indigenous people meaning they

do not have the level of empathy that allows them to see beyond the silo of being an indigenous person. You know, we have to pick the best people for the job. Yeah. When you come into public service. Yeah. It doesn't matter what you are. Like I said, you pick the best person. Yeah. Not based on color, not based on race, not based on anything. Well, that's the ideal. Anthony, that's the ideal. Unfortunately, we've gone down this rat hole of identity politics that that has

rat hole of identity politics that has consumed the progressive left. And that's all they see. They look at a move like this and are convinced it's a good thing. It's a necessary move. What they're actually saying is indigenous people need to be looking after indigenous people. But what you're also saying is indigenous people can only look after indigenous people. How insulting is that? How insulting is that? How insulting is that?

It also says you have failed at your job because you are stating by inference that you have failed the indigenous people of this city and therefore you're taking this extraordinary anti-democratic measure to fix that. Shane, you are, oh, you're the son of someone from a reservation. So what do you think about some, I'm so glad you called in. Thank you. I, you know, I, I assumed from my perspective that this is an insulting move towards the indigenous community, but I'd rather hear it. Your take.

Well, I'm not a native, so I'll just set that straight. My stepfather is he's Ojibwe from the Elderville reservation, which is north of Coburg. And I'm very close to a lot of people from the Mohawk res. And you know, I've lived around this my whole life. This is not what these people want. And I think honestly, and not you personally, Ben, but I think these people have lost your mind in Toronto. And I don't understand what do you think paying $200,000 a year to somebody in the city of Toronto

to sit on town council is gonna achieve? Or what do you think the benefit of that is going to be to the to the Aboriginal or Native people? Exactly. And then there is no benefit. It's not it's performative, useless virtue signaling. And by the way, Shane, thank you for bringing up the the the $200,000. I don't know what these the salary is of a city councilor, but they come with a staff. And they all come with a staff. So what's what's that total going to be? And if

the city councilor has to be aboriginal, does the entire staff have to be First Nations as well? Seems like it would be in keeping with with this mentality. It is asinine. Hey, we have a homeless problem in this city, Shane. Should we have a homeless member of city council? I'm going to tell you something, Ben. Unfortunately, you poor bastards got who you voted for. And that's all I can say. Yeah. Thank you, Shane. I hope you have a great weekend.

Hey, Frank, welcome to the conversation. This is I think you're going to agree with me. This is a level of this is this is a clown. This is a clown show. Ben, first of all, I love your show. You do a great show. Thank you. I listen to it as often as I can.

Being a property owner in Toronto, I own a few properties. I'm going to tell you right now, being born and raised here. I have never ever ever seen this city in the dire straights vaccine of today. It's just awful. Yeah, I'm telling you, we have the most this council a seat they got to go. They are the most inefficient people that you can shake a stick at and the mayor I don't know how she got this position. She should not be the mayor. Yeah, the right was divided when she got elected.

You know, the right was divided. There was three or four candidates on the right and only one on the left. Hey, Frank, thank you so much. I want to take a couple more calls. So let's welcome Edward to the Ben Mulroney show. Yeah, I think you and I are of the same mind. If you're going to have an Indigenous person,

why not have somebody from every cultural community and just have them represent the different ethnicities of Toronto? You said it better than I could Ben But this is crazy right and there's nothing uniting about this there's nothing uniting about this is a divisive tactic It's identity politics and the left are masters at it. Yeah. And if you agree with them, automatically you are labeled as fill in the blank. Yeah. No, and if you disagree, you're a racist.

And so you know what? I want to thank you for that. And to hopefully prove my point, but I'm willing to be proven wrong as well, is I've got Brian on the line. Brian, you are a member of First Nations. Yes, I am. OK, so so again, like I would be accused of of of using my white privilege to speak on behalf of other people.

You tell me what you think on this matter. There's nothing wrong with any kind of privilege. As far as I'm concerned, this is just gonna put a bigger wedge into things. I totally believe that this, whoever this person is, has to be elected. They can't be appointed. Yep.

Yeah, it's a purely, absolutely. If you're not elected, you are not accountable. And so I 100% believe that if you want to add another person to city council, you go right ahead. I personally find it affronted democracy that it would be based entirely on race, but that's where we are in the City of Toronto, Brian. All of these things that they're doing for the Aboriginals right now are just going to put a wedge between normal Canadian people for the Aboriginals right now are just going to put a wedge between normal Canadian people and the Aboriginal community.

Brian, thank you. Thank you for offering your voice to this conversation. I really do appreciate it. Are you crushing your bills? Defeating your monthly payments? Sounds like you're at the top of your financial game. Defeating your monthly payments. Sounds like you're at the top of your financial game. High School. Rise to it with the BMO Eclipse Rise Visa Card, the credit card that rewards your good financial habits. Earn points for paying your credit card bill

in full and on time every month. Level up from bill payer to reward slayer. Terms and conditions apply. The wait is over. The NBA season is here, and FanDuel's the place to bet on all the action. I'm talking everything from point spreads to money lines to player props. You can even pick who's going to win it all. Whether you're betting on a breakout performance or an underdog victory, tip off the season

right with North America's number one sportsbook. Just download the app and bet on the NBA all season long. Please play responsibly. 19 plus and physically located in Ontario. If you have questions or concerns about your gambling or the gambling of someone close to you, please go to connectsontario.ca. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show.

And the Ontario that we're living in now is not the Ontario of a few generations ago. We are now living in a world of gambling. It's part of the fabric of this province. There are casinos in a number of places, as well as online gambling that you can do from the comfort and ease of your smartphone. And I learned an expression today that I was not aware of. It's called self, self, what's it called? When you self, what's it called? When you self identify?

No, you self restrict. Self restrict. So if you're a problem gambler, if you're somebody who knows that you have a compulsion and an addiction, you can self identify as a problem gambler and then by way of facial recognition, you essentially ban yourself from these casinos as a way to limit your exposure. And because of that, there's a database

of these problem gamblers in areas across Ontario. And what we're learning is in the immediate neighborhoods around many Ontario casinos, the rate of self-identified problem gamblers is much higher than the provincial average. And so it's sort of like if you build it, they will come. And I wanted to drill down into this because I found this to be a really interesting phenomenon.

And the best person to talk addiction with is Yona Budd. He's the chorus addictions and counseling expert, and you can find him at yonabudd.com. Yona, thank you so much for joining us today. Glad to be here, Ben. Thanks for having me. Yeah. So I understand that addiction is addiction. It might be drugs, it might be alcohol, it could be anything. And I'm sure they activate the same parts of the brain. But are there unique aspects to gambling addiction that are different from other addictions?

It's a great question. So I guess there, you know, each each each act of of self destruction, if you will, each act of at risk behavior changes. The difference between let's say drug addiction and process addiction like gambling is that it's somewhat invisible to the outside world. In other words, you don't see someone on the street kind of looking like they're in rough shape. There's not that physical immediacy that you can tell someone's in trouble. And the risk is much, much higher in a gaming or gambling addiction because the amount of money that can be lost or wagered in a minute far exceeds the amount you could possibly spend on even the craziest of drug addiction. Yeah.

And the destruction to family and businesses and so on seems to be much greater when someone's deep into a gambling addiction. You know, when you invent something, you also invent the abuse of that thing. In other words, when the car was first invented, you also accidentally invented the car accident. Same with the plane. And same with, when you invent same with when you invent gambling,

you also invent gambling addiction. And so when we brought gambling into the province of Ontario, people who otherwise never would have been exposed to that thrill and could not have become problem gamblers. In other words, there's a social responsibility from the government. If they are the ones licensing and bringing it in words, there's a social responsibility from the government if they are the ones licensing and bringing it in, then there should be a responsibility that comes with that as well to ensure that if

those people do run a foul and they do become addicted, that there are supports for them. Do we have adequate supports for gambling addiction in the province of Ontario? Oh, like every other addiction, absolutely not. And then, you didn't mention it, but I'm sure you will. The advent to legalized online. Oh yeah, we were getting to that next, Yona. Like it's promoted through the wall. So you don't even have to go to a casino anymore.

You can be in Nowheresville, Ontario, BC, Edmonton somewhere in the middle of the country with a laptop and wifi and blow your brains out on gambling. You don't have to go anywhere. But the attraction to gambling, the way we attract people in this country is similar to Vegas. They got shows, they got free buffets,

and you can stay overnight if you gamble enough. They actually incent you, they give you an incentive to gamble more by attracting you, by giving you free stuff. Yeah, I've got a raft of vices, but gambling has never been one. It's never scratched a particular itch of mine. So it's kind of a foreign concept for me. But I have to assume, as you just said,

with the advent and the rise of online gambling and all these sports betting apps and things like that, that the problems that we're experiencing today are going to Explode in the next few years as somebody who's been in the trenches Is there and can you see a timeline here of no knowing that sports betting is still young or are we five years off? From a crisis are we ten years off and when does society finally take note of the problem? Well, I think when one of our one of our members of parliament or one of our officials in government has a cousin, uncle, brother, brother-in-law who lose their house, family and everyone

else to a gambling addiction, you know, we haven't even seen the tip of the iceberg. And by the way, kids now are able to wager in certain kinds of games to get new men, new devices, new weapons, and so on as part of their game. So we're teaching children through some of these player apps, player games, how to kind of wager. And I think that we're in lotteries in this country. I was telling George before we came on the show together about a patient I had who was who was spending, you know, 10, $20,000 a week on lottery tickets and most of their time going from retailer to

retailer to retailer, trying to win that that that you know, that lottery forget about even going to a casino or wrapping up your lighting up your computer, just go to a gas station and they'll take all your money if you want to buy lottery tickets. What do you make of the problematic proximity issue? The fact that so many problem gamblers are living so close to where they could indulge in their addiction. Well, you know, if you're, if you're a guy that likes to drink every night, you're going to live close to a bar. And I don't think it's incumbent upon us as Ontarians or the government in this particular case to start assessing people that move into a particular neighborhood that's within walking distance from a casino.

I think the casinos themselves need to do a better job. They certainly do a very good job of keeping track of people who can count cards and quote unquote it she'd at the game or have an advantage over the game they keep track of them very well yeah they don't they don't do a very good job of keeping track of people who are losing their lives or their lives savings if you will uh... day by day minute by minute you know are you saying that uh... this this self-identifying uh... program

that then puts their face in a database and highlights it when they walk into a casino, that's not, it's not robust enough? Well, I think it's a good listen, if you want to report yourself and protect yourself, I think it's a great idea. And it's a great plan. Is it robust enough? I mean, let's understand why the casinos are in business. They're in business to take your money and win for them to win for you to lose. So you know, how much weight is on them at this point? I don't think a lot. I think the government needs to do a better job

like we do with cigarettes at the counter at a convenience store or marijuana at the counter, you know, checking people, making sure that they're okay when you, you know, similar to try to get a gun license in the US, for example. I think we got to do a much better job before, you know, allowing people to, you know, spend or rager their life savings or credit when they're coming back day after day after day. I think there needs to be something incumbent upon the, the operators to,

to do a better job. But I think that's, you know, like asking a bartender to keep a guy out that, you know, it's as a drinking problem. Some are really good at it because they're just good people. Others don't care. That's not their job. Well, Yonah Budd, I want to thank you for coming on because like I said, it was such a curious story and I'm so glad that you were able to lay it out for me and for the listeners of the show. So I appreciate it.

Have a great weekend. Always a pleasure, Ben. Thank you. TD Direct Investing offers live support. So whether you're a newbie or a seasoned pro, you can make your investing steps count. And if you're like me and think a TFSA stands for Total Fund Savings Adventure, maybe reach out to TD Direct Investing.

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My algorithm suggests book before March 30th. Remember, Sunwing, save more, do more. Book with your local travel advisor or at Sunwing.ca Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show. As we all know, we're experiencing a housing shortage clear across Canada. And in Toronto in particular, things are really bad. There's a city staff report that says that Toronto is experiencing a continued housing supply slowdown as a result of high construction and financing costs, higher interest rates and declining pre-construction sales and rents. The report warns that the slowdown in housing development could have a

generational negative impact on Toronto's ability to accommodate current and future residents. Now the Central bank has lowered interest rates again. And, and that could be significant, but to drill down on really how bad things are, and what we need to do in order to get ourselves to a place where we can finally house the people who need to be housed. I'm joined now by Adrian Rocha, the founder and CEO of Fitzrovia. Adrian, thank you so much for joining us on the Ben Mulroney show. Thanks for having me, Ben. So level set for us. How bad is the status quo? It is bad. You know, I've been back from Europe for the last

11 years, I've never seen supply as low as it is today, we're seeing kind of new sales down 90% and of the current sale activity that has occurred in the condos market, most of those projects are not going to hit the pre-sale thresholds, which means they'll actually never go under construction. You need 70-75% of the total units in a particular project to be pre-sold. So it's essentially zero in terms of new supply right now. So you essentially have the stuff that exists is is is not selling and the stuff that is on deck to be built isn't getting built. That's correct. Okay. And meanwhile, we still have millions of people. I think the the the population of

the GTA slated to grow by what 25% in the next 15 years So we already don't have a place to put the people we have What okay, so three three different levels of government including the central bank, so that's four different players Who's who's making changes that are actually going to make things easier to build and make that the stuff that's built? sort of purchasable. So we're seeing some cities which are taking bold steps to change the economic profile of new development, Miss saga, Vaughn, they've, you know, waved or cut significantly development charges, you know, for a period of time to

encourage more new supply coming into the market, that you really have to rethink the economic model right now. Margins are really, really thin and it doesn't really allow for a developer to take on the risk or institutional capital partners to develop brand new product in today's market. When you're looking at the total development costs of a new project, 30% are municipal fees, development charges, and levies. And so we really need to find a way to reduce those and find a different stream to fund those coming into the market, like infrastructure bonds or

municipal bonds. And right now, I guess Toronto is looking at deferring some of those charges, which I'm sure is a temporary plus, but those charges still have to get paid at some point. Yeah, so it's back to the margins being really thin. A simple deferral helps very, very little, right? You save a little bit of interest costs associated with paying later,

but it doesn't really materially change the profit margins or the margins to go vertical, right. And so you really need to adjust the total development costs. And that's why a development charge waiver makes sense, or a property tax waiver. But here's what I don't understand is, what is the need the absolute need for a lot of these development charges, because there are plenty of municipalities like Miami, for

example, I've heard stories about how their development charges are insignificant compared to ours. It's not like their condos are any less safe. It's not like their, their their condos are anything are inferior in any way to ours. So what's that money going to? And do we really need those charges? Yeah, for one we have I'd say a couple billion dollars, I think it's two billion dollars to be exact of unspent development charges that are earmarked for projects in some cases that I don't believe will be built in the next 20 years. So I think there needs to be a reallocation of those capital

projects, those infrastructure projects that are on the city list right now would be one. Two, the funding model in the U S is very different. I think we could learn from that. They have the ability to raise what's called an infrastructure bond or municipal bonds. And so you're able to bring institutional and retail capital to the table to fund the build out of infrastructure, instead of just putting the obligations around building out that infrastructure city

infrastructure to the developer, which indirectly impacts the cost of a unit or the rent associated with what's being built. So Adrian, like if we are in fact in a crisis, and we are, then why aren't we looking at things like that? Why, if that works and if that drives down costs and if that speeds up development, why aren't we looking at solutions like that?

So it's definitely being tabled. And I would say that government, all three levels of government have done a really good job engaging the private sector. We continue to be in a number of workshops with them, just given our size and scale. We're the largest developer of rental housing in Canada. And so they've done a good job engaging.

Changing policy where a municipality could issue these form of bonds takes a while. It doesn't happen overnight. You need to put the guardrails in place for those bonds to be issued. And so it is being tabled. I hope someone, i.e. the province, will drive that forward and introduce that policy over time, but it doesn't happen overnight.

It is one of many things that are being looked at right now. I think the easiest thing we can do is have an open sunset window, call it two years, where we're fully waiving development charges and property tax to encourage as much new housing, especially rental housing, that gets created in the market. They've done it in Sunbelt markets in the US very effectively when they needed to get more supply into the market. And every day, every week, every month that goes by right now where we don't have that policy change, or a change to the economic model, this thing's gonna snowball.

So Adrian, just give me give me a sense. I always love timelines. So if if city council had some sort of change of heart and really want to take this seriously and listen to what you just said, and gave sort of a two year reprieve on a number of those taxes, how long until we would see a meaningful turnaround in the market? So we have a number of projects right now that we have a building permit on the clerk's desk, ready to be pulled, that are fully zoned and fully designed. So we would immediately put a couple thousand units in development into the market. Typically, there's call it a three, three and a half year construction window to do a high rise if you're really efficient. And so by the time that actually gets delivered in the market,

you're talking at best three to three and a half years. But in the interim, you're employing God knows how many tradesmen and tradespeople in this city, all of whom are working and paying taxes. I mean, there is a positive knock on effect from lowering the the tax implications for the developer. Absolutely. The counter to that, which is a really important point, we have to maintain our trade capacity in the system. As when the market eventually does come back, there's only so much trade

capacity. We're kind of bursting at the seams of 25, 26,000 units a year in terms of what's being constructed. And so right now what we're finding is trades are laying off employees, trades are very slow. They're really trying to engage to be on tender lists on the very few projects that are being constructed right now. And so if that staffing pool moves to other sectors

or other geographies, which they will absolutely do when you're in survival mode, trying to put food on the table and feed your family, that is not good for this industry long-term. The ramp up to get back to that capacity will be more difficult. Adrian Rocca, the CEO and founder of FitzRovia, really appreciates your voice in this conversation. I hope you have a great weekend.

My pleasure. Thanks for having me, Ben. There's no limit to how far criminals will go to cover their tracks. But investigators will go even further to uncover the truth. I'm Nancy Hicks, a senior crime reporter for Global News. This season on Crime Beat, I'll take you from the crime scene to the courtroom and inside some of Canada's most high-profile cases and some you've likely never heard of before. Search for and listen to Crime Beat on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, and wherever

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