The Ben Mulroney Show - Ben talks to Arlene Dickinson on how to negotiate with a hostile counterpart

Episode Date: February 4, 2025

Guests and Topics: Guest: Arlene Dickinson, Member of the Council on Canada-US Relations, Entrepreneur and venture capitalist, author and Dragon on Dragon’s Den If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! https://globalnews.ca/national/program/the-ben-mulroney-show Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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You know, when Justin Trudeau promised a team Canada approach, he brought some heavy hitters to the table to help get our message across to the Americans so that we could get to the other side of those tariffs, at least for the time being. And one of the people who was involved in the Council on Canada US relations is Arlene Dickinson, entrepreneur, venture capitalist, author, and of course, dragon on dragons den. And I'm very pleased to have Arlene on the show. Arlene, welcome to the Ben Mulroney show. Hey, Ben, nice to talk to you. All right. So how are you preparing for the next 30 days? Are we going to have to go through

all this again? Well, I mean, certainly, there's going to be more negotiation that's going to happen over the course of the next 30 days. And, you know, hopefully we'll be able to continue to find a way forward where these tariffs are not going to be implemented and we can, you know, carry on with our lives the way they were. But we also have to prepare for whatever the inevitability might be and be ready for that. Arlene, you've negotiated against straight shooters in the past,

but this, Donald Trump is not shooting straight. He, at first it's about the border, then it's about NATO, then it's fentanyl, he just mentioned banking. So how do you negotiate on shifting sands? It's difficult for sure, because you never quite know exactly what he's going to do next or what is actually going to appease him, which is exactly why you can't offer things up that you don't believe are actually what's necessary in order to get him to agree.

So he's definitely erratic in terms of what he wants, but we have to get down to what is it he really wants. And I believe that that is power and control. And that means him taking as much as he can from the country that he needs the most from. Can you give us a sense of what the day to day was on the Council of Canada-U.S. Relations? Because people heard it and they saw you at press conferences, but what exactly were you tasked with? I saw you at press conferences, but what exactly were you tasked with?

Well, we continue to have conversations and discussions and roundtables and ongoing daily with a lot of communication between all of the parties to discuss what we believe are the right steps that we need to take, but also to discuss what Canadians are thinking, how we're feeling, what we think we can do in order to help ease

any pain that might be inflicted on Canadians. So meetings, calls, emails, dialogue, and it's ongoing. Donald Trump projects strength, but he is notoriously thin-skinned. And I've got to wonder, and you're closer to it than I, but I'm just asking for your opinion, really. How much of this was based on the antagonistic relationship between Donald Trump and Justin Trudeau? That they just don't see eye to eye. They're never going to be friends. So how much of this was Trump just not liking the guy on the other side of the border? Well, I think that, you know, the President of the United States would do anything based

on the dislike for the president of the United States is actually frightening. That's a frightening thought. So I would hope that he is not going to let personal bias or decisions or thoughts cloud his impact on the American people in that way or the Canadian people. Well, I was just talking about it a few minutes ago with some political strategists that there was concern with people going on social media and taking to microphones dunking on Trump saying, yeah, we won, we won, because he's gonna see that and if he feels like he's being disrespected, I mean, there's a fear

he's going to retaliate emotionally, at least in part. Yeah, I mean, that, listen again, you know, like that would be a very potentially, I'm trying to, I'm actually not, now you've got me thinking, am I going to say anything that's going to get him mad? We have to, we have to speak the truth and we have to keep the truth no matter what that is. And I think the White House came out with some fairly strong language this morning about us kneeling to, you know, so like, listen, is that infuriating people? Sure, we don't like it when people say stuff like that.

But that isn't what drives your negotiation. Negotiation is sure as heck shouldn't be. Arlene, have you ever met Donald Trump? I have not. If you did, if you had just happened to be shaking his hand at Mar-a-Lago or wherever, what would you say to him? What would I say to him? I would ask him to be, I have a big belief then in capitalism with a conscience.

Because I'm thinking about, I certainly understand capitalism, I am a capitalist, but I believe that capitalism has to account for and help people that are vulnerable and in need. And so I would caution him. I think what I would say to him is, I understand the quest for control and power. A lot of capitalists have that,

but Donald, you need our Mr. Trump, President Trump, however, he would want to be referred to talking to him. I would be saying to him, you have to make sure that you are considering the most vulnerable, the underserved, the underprivileged, and the rest of society, and be much more magnanimous in terms of what the dollars that you have and the power you have could do to help you and other people. I'm in conversation with Arlene Dickinson, who's a member of the Council on Canada-U.S. Relations, when they were central to getting us past the tariffs for the next 30 days. Arlene, one person who has spent time with Donald Trump is someone you and I both

know, is Kevin O'Leary, And he's been on this show many times. He makes great radio, but sometimes he doesn't make a lot of sense. And most recently when he talked about, you know, when he came on the show to tout the idea of an economic union between Canada and the United States. And anybody who knows anything about Canada and the United States knows any union would be a takeover

because they're not giving up their passports and they're not giving up their laws and they're not giving up their courts. So that's a non-starter. But he does have the ear of the president. So what do you do with a Kevin O'Leary in a situation like this? Well, you know, you asked me what I would say and that was me talking personally, but I think when we were talking and you know, like a negotiation or when we're thinking about the, what is at stake here, which is our sovereignty, which is exactly what you just said, our identity and our ability to control our currency

and to control our nationality. And so, you know, when Kevin says those things, I mean, he's always had a very bombastic in your faith style. He's always been, you know, talks in absolute. He tends to talk over people, not with people. And I can see them getting along very well. You know, like, whether or not that means that he's going to, you know, influence Trump. He certainly got no mandate to speak on behalf of Canadians. Everybody I've talked to does not want to be a 50%

if there is any appetite for it, it generally comes from people who are only thinking from a financial perspective, not from a true patriotic Canadian perspective. So I don't know. I mean, I try to ignore Kevin. I don't know how much Mr. Trump's ear he has or President Trump's ear he has.

I don't, I can't speak to that. It's nice that they can have dinner together. Maybe that's good for Kevin if that's important to him. Arlene, are you gonna get any time off? I don't think so. I think it's, nothing's more important right now. Nothing's more important right now. How much of your schedule is taken up by this council?

Being quite a bit. Yeah. Being a lot. And again, I think, you know, when you have an opportunity to have a voice on behalf of entrepreneurs in this country and to represent, you know, businesses who are trying to grow and build economic value for this country and talk about what's needed in this country, that you take that advantage and opportunity to do so. So it's it's worth every minute of time I'm spending and I appreciate all the emails and calls and texts and advice I've been getting from all parts of the country of people who have a concern and want to make sure that we defend ourselves. Lastly Arlene, one day the mandate of the council will end

and you will have that time freed up. What are you gonna fill it with? Oh, I think I'm doing two full-time jobs right now and I'm busy with my fun district venture capital. I'm busy investing in businesses and Canadian businesses and making sure that we're continuing to think about our economy and how I can contribute to it. So I'm very busy with all the companies that we work with and invest in and I'm I've got lots of projects on. Yes, I do. Actually, you know what? I've got I got 20 more seconds. You are a great investor.

You are bullish on Canada. What would you tell people who've got money in their pockets and sitting on the sidelines, they're like, I'm not investing in Canada till I know things are a little better? I would say, you know, if you're an investor and you're entrepreneurial, that's in the midst of crisis is when you see opportunity. And, you know, like, what do they say, never squander a good crisis. Yeah, I would say this is it. This is the time to get into the business and to invest. Arlene, I know how busy you are. And the fact that you found time to come on to the show means a great deal. So thank you so much for all the hard work you've been putting in. And thanks for showing up to the Ben Mulroney show.

Thanks a lot, Ben. It's always so good to talk to you. The 25% tariffs were averted literally at the 11th hour after a second phone conversation between Justin Trudeau and Donald Trump. Donald Trump has decided to postpone any tariffing of our goods and services by a month. He's hoping to get some sort of more fulsome trade agreement, I think that's what he said, and we're gonna dig into this entire thing today. One of the reasons that Donald Trump decided not to levy

the tariffs yet was because Canada agreed to appoint a Fentanyl Tsar and bolster the border in a bid to delay those tariffs. So the Fentanyl Tsar, I guess, will be a counterpoint to the border Tsar in Tom Homan. And those two people will be coordinating and working together to ensure that our undefended border is still safe and secure. I don't know how it's gonna work.

We've never had a czar before in Canada and they might have to create a new department, a new ministry for this role to have any weight, but I'm not an expert in that. And we'll get smarter people on the show to lay that out for you later. The person who predicted this, however, was Alberta Premier Danielle Smith.

On this very show, not two weeks ago, she made the suggestion that perhaps Canada needed a border czar. And of course, certain people from a particular part of the political spectrum laughed that down. What nonsense. Oh, that Danielle Smith and her right wing ideas. She doesn't know what she's talking about.

How quaint and cute. Well, it turns out she knew exactly what she was talking about because she telegraphed this two weeks ago. So there we go. Now, what actually changed on the ground? Because by and large, what Canada agreed to feels like what was put forth by Justin Trudeau and his government three weeks ago. And the Public Safety Minister, David McGinty, was asked what changed between the first call yesterday between Donald Trump and Justin Trudeau, where it didn't look like a deal could be met, and the second call, where shortly thereafter a deal was done. What changed though, or what transpired from the first call this morning to the second

call this afternoon to then the public statement from the Prime Minister? I think that it's fair to say that the President was apprised more directly with many facts around the work that we've actually done on the border. He's much more aware now of the investment we've made, how far we've come. These new elements are building on some of the things we've already begun. For example, this question of a joint North American strike force is something we've been negotiating for some time, bringing it forward. So I think what we've got now is a situation where we've got some work to do over

the next 30 days to get this right. And you know, the President expressed concerns, we listened. But we're working now jointly, hand-in-hand, especially when it comes to this scourge and this tragedy surrounding fentanyl. Yeah, and let's not forget that part of Donald Trump's accusation of Canada was that drug cartels from Mexico are allowed to operate with impunity within our borders because we just haven't taken these things very seriously. within our borders because we just haven't taken these things very seriously. And so in lightning fast, with lightning fast speed, the Trudeau government did something else that is not exactly in keeping with their past behavior. They designated all the drug cartels as terrorist organizations.

And again, Public Safety Minister David McGinty was asked, why did you do that in a heartbeat? But you drag your feet and you took your sweet time doing the very same thing for the Iranian Revolutionary Guard, the IRGC. Here's what he said. You are also agreeing to list cartels as terrorists. This question is in no way a defense of the cartels, but what is the justification for listing them as a terrorist entity? Because that has been a high bar in this country. There's been resistance to do it with Iran

and other groups for a long time. Why a quick acceptance of that and how do you justify it in law doing that to the cartels? Not a quick acceptance, something that we've been considering for some time. You have to look at the nature of the activities of cartels and the similarities that they share with terrorist groups. So we took a long hard look at what they're doing, how they're doing it, the scourge that they've become, how vicious they can be, and we've made a tough decision and this decision is we've got to move forward and give our law enforcement folks more access to powers, extraordinary powers, not granted easily because we want to nip this in its bud.

Like specific cartels, will you name specific cartels? We'll get there, we'll get there. This is again in the next thirty days. But if you've been working on it for quite some time and it? We'll get there. We'll get there. This is, again, in the next 30 days we'll have a lot of this. But if you've been working on it for quite some time and it's not quick acceptance, there should be more details. Well, there is. There is.

But we're going to wait until we have a better, more opportune moment to share more details. Yeah, I don't know if that's true. I don't know if that's completely true. You took a hard look at it. I'll give you that. You did not take a long hard look at it. Something tells me that somebody suggested, do this this and that'll go a long way with the president and you just did it. And I'm glad you did it. A lot of people are glad you did it.

And this is how you should move in the future. When there is a terrorist organization like the IRGC staring you plain in the face, call them what they are. So good on you for doing it this time and let's make sure we do it moving forward. True leadership is about taking a problem and identifying how you can turn it into an opportunity. The tariffs, tariff threat, definite problem, but what can we do as a country moving forward? That's the opportunity.

Well, Pierre Poliev gave a speech where he said he was going to tear down provincial trade barriers. He was going to, when he ultimately assumes the leadership of the country, he says he will be the prime minister who will do what no prime minister has ever been able to do, which is remove the self-imposed provincial trade barriers that hobble our national economy. And he said, now here's the thing, he can't do that on his own. That's provincial jurisdiction. So he's come up with a novel approach. He's going to reward the provinces with what he calls a free trade bonus.

And each time they remove a trade barrier, they're going to get a little, I guess a kickback, if you will, from the additional revenue that will be generated from getting rid of that barrier. And just for context, the Canadian Federation of Independent Business found that if we got rid of all of these internal trade barriers, it could boost Canada's GDP by up to 200 billion with a B annually. But so yes, the the original tariffs were taken off the table, and the retaliatory tariffs were also taken off the table. And there

are a lot of people south of the border who are breathing a sigh of relief. We probably you probably heard Justin Trudeau as well as Doug Ford reference Kentucky bourbon. Every time they would reference the retaliatory tariffs, they would say Kentucky bourbon. Well, the Kentucky governor took to television to essentially say, oh boy, we dodged a bullet. You know, my goal isn't to be a democratic governor

or a Republican governor, but to be the best governor for my people. And these tariffs will hurt my people and the rest of America if they go into place a month from now or a year from now. And the idea that we'd be dealing with this every single month, that's going to create instability, not just in the bourbon industry, but across all of our industries. It's going to cause harm in and of itself. It's gonna create such uncertainty for business

that it threatens the American economy. See, listen, the charm offensive that a lot of our leaders have engaged in over the past six weeks, it led to this. I know that there were negotiations behind the scenes, but Donald Trump consumes a lot of TV. Most of the information that he gleans comes from a screen. And there were so many Canadians on American airwaves over the past six weeks that you know that that information made its way to his ear holes. And, And then as well as things like what the Kentucky governor just said,

the impact on his state would have been tremendous. And he heard that from economists and bankers and the stock market. And I think he probably found himself in a hole. Home Network is here. I love it. found himself in a hole. We are so lucky to be a part of this. And Honest Renovation, starring Jessica Alba and Lizzie Mathis at 9. Changing these homes, we can change families. There's no place like it. Home Network. Stream on STAT TV.