The Ben Mulroney Show - Ben was stunned by Donald Trump and Volodymyr Zelenskyy's Oval Office Fight

Episode Date: March 3, 2025

Guests and Topics: -Trump expects Zelenskyy to play nice with a murderous dictator with Guest: Adam Zivo, National Post columnist and Executive Director for the Centre For Responsible Drug Policy If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! https://globalnews.ca/national/program/the-ben-mulroney-show Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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do business. So join the more than 400,000 Canadian entrepreneurs who already count on us and contact Desjardins today. We'd love to talk business. Look, there's a lot in life. There's a lot that crosses our social media feeds that is uncomfortable. And, and sometimes you got to look away and sometimes it just it makes you feel icky. In the world of politics, I don't think I have ever seen anything that felt more uncomfortable, that gave me a just a bad icky feeling than watching

Vladimir Zelensky get attacked in the Oval Office. I think it was Friday. I've never I've never felt that way watching, witnessing a political event ever before. I felt angry, I have felt sad, I have felt elated, I have felt jubilant, I have felt all those feelings. I've never felt what I felt watching the president of Ukraine get dressed down the way he did. Now I am not making a value judgment. I am not taking a position here. I've got my opinions on Zelensky,

on how the war has been prosecuted, on the United States' historical commitment and relationship with Ukraine. That's not the conversation we're having right now. We're having a conversation about the interpersonal dynamics of that meeting. Let's start with JD Vance, the vice president,

having some very pointed words for the president of Ukraine. What kind of diplomacy, JD, you are speaking about? What do you mean? I'm talking about the kind of diplomacy that's gonna, you are speaking about? What do you mean? I'm talking about the kind of diplomacy that's going to end the destruction of your country. Yes, but if you are not strong... Mr. President, Mr. President, with respect, I think it's disrespectful for you to come into the Oval Office and try to litigate this in front of the American media.

Right now you guys are going around and forcing conscripts to the front lines because you have manpower problems. You should be thanking the President for trying to bring it into this conflict. Have you ever been to Ukraine that you say what problems we have? I have been to... I've actually watched and seen the stories and I know what happens is you bring people, you bring them on a propaganda tour Mr. President. Do you disagree that you've had problems bringing people into your military? And do you think that it's respectful to come to the Oval Office of the United States of America and attack the administration that is trying to trying to prevent the destruction of your country?

Yeah, I mean, it only got worse from there. Zelensky and Trump get into it after that. First of all, during the war, everybody has problems. Even you, but you have a nice ocean, and don't feel now, but you will feel it in the future. God bless, God bless, God bless, you will not have a war. Don't tell us what we're going to feel. We're trying to solve a problem. Don't tell us what we're going to feel. I'm not telling you. Because you're in no position to dictate that.

Remember that. You're in no position to dictate what we're going to feel. We're going to feel very good. We're going to feel very good and very strong. You're right now not in a very good position. You've allowed yourself to be in a very bad position and it happens to be right about now. You're not in a good position.

You don't have the cards right now. With us, you start having cards. Right now, you're gambling with the lives of millions of people. You're gambling with World War III. You're gambling with World War III. Yeah. And look, to me, JD Vance was the pot stirrer here. Cause when the conversation first started, look, it wasn't the friendliest between Donald Trump and Vladimir Zelensky, but it certainly wasn't something I had never seen before. And JD Vance got in there and changed the dynamic.

And I think Donald Trump took his cues from Vance. And then, so you saw what we just saw there, which was sort of a descent into a shouting match. And I guess, look, it depends on where you wanna look at this from. You could argue that the most pragmatic thing to do, and I say it oftentimes on this show, you gotta take the world as it is,

not as you want it to be. And in that way, the position of Donald Trump's team makes sense. Look, this is a war that's been going on for three years. Do we want it to continue for three more? Do we want to continue sending bullets and guns to Ukraine until there's nobody left to shoot those guns? Or do we want to try to get everybody around a table right now and and find a way to end this peacefully?

There's that argument. Then there's the other argument. This is why are you starting with Vladimir Putin when he's the guy who started the war? I also don't like the idea of everybody ganging up on a guy who only learnt English three years ago. It felt like he was alone there. And so in that way, that did not sit well with me. Let's continue with Trump saying Zelensky is, to use JD Vance's words, disrespectful. What you're doing is very disrespectful to the country, this country. That's back to you.

I'm willing to respect your words. Far more than a lot of people said they should have. Have you said thank you once? In this entire meeting? No, in this entire meeting have you said thank you? You went to Pennsylvania and campaigned for the opposition in October. Oh yeah, pause for a second. There you go. That's the issue right there. They don't like the fact that when Joe Biden was in office, Zelensky sort of kissed the ring.

They don't like that at all. Let's keep going. You went to Pennsylvania and campaigned for the opposition in October offer some words of appreciation for the United States of America and the president who's trying to save your country. Please, you think that if you will speak very loudly about the war you can... He's not speaking loudly. He's not speaking loudly. Your country's in big trouble. Can I answer? No, no. You've done a lot of talking. Your country is in big trouble. Can I answer? No, no. You've done a lot of talking. Your country is in big trouble.

I know. You're not winning. You're not winning this. You have a damn good chance of coming out OK because of us. Mr. President, we are staying in our country, staying strong from the very beginning of the war. We've been alone and we are thankful. I said thanks in this cabinet. You haven't been allowed. We gave you through this stupid president $350 billion. You voted for your president. We gave you military equipment.

You voted for your president. And you met up brave, but they had to use our military equipment. If you didn't have our military equipment, if you didn't have our military equipment, this war would have been over in two weeks. In three days. I heard it from Putin. In three days. This is something new. Maybe less. Yeah. In three days, I heard it from Putin in three days. This is something. Maybe less.

Yeah. Well, look, I mean, calling, calling. He said nicknames for Joe Biden before, but calling him a stupid president. That's that's new. That's a new tone. That's a tonal shift. And I don't believe a good one. But as you can see, when JD Vance's have you ever said, thank you. Now, I used grok. I used Elon Musk's AI tool on Twitter, Grok, and I asked how many times has Vladimir Zelensky thanked the United States?

The answer that Grok gave me was 33 times. So it's, but it's what have you done for me lately that is of concern to these guys? And then here's where I thought it went from really uncomfortable to flat out tacky. Like tacky was when a member of the press corps, I think he's like from the America One Network, decided that he was going to join the pile on and disrespect this wartime president. this war will finish. Yes, maybe one, maybe something like yours, yes. Maybe some something better, I don't know.

We will see, maybe something cheaper. Yeah, I mean, with all, the president's the president, JD Vance is JD Vance. Who the F is this fricking journalist? Who the F do you think you are? You're a, you talk about respect, show some goddamn respect for a man who has been fighting for his countrymen

for the better part of three years, watching them die in the streets. But you're the weakling who joined the team of bullies. And when you thought the bully got the upper hand, you joined the pile on. You're an awful, awful human being for doing that. And you know that this is the highlight of that guy's career. That to me was the low point of a series of low points. And we will

have much more to say about this over the next few days because a lot's gonna come out of this. And by the way, I don't think Zelensky was entirely right in all of this as well. I think he made some tactical mistakes as well. We can delve into that later. I'm joined now by a friend of the show and friend of mine, Adam Zivow, national post columnist and executive director for the Center

for Responsible Drug Policy. Adam, no better person to chat with on the subject of Ukraine than you. You have a personal attachment there, as well as just being one of the most well-rounded people I've ever met. Yeah, I mean, I spent basically a year and a half living there at the beginning of the war. You know, I just got engaged to Ukrainian.

I'm very familiar with what with what life is like in Ukraine and what Ukrainians actually believe. Well, I didn't know that you got engaged. Congratulations. Thank you. Who popped the question? Uh, I did, but we kind of just talked it over on the couch and agreed to make it a thing. And you know, we're a gay couple, so it's a bit different from normal. We looked up on Google and now we are engaged. Congratulations to both of you. Very, very happy for you. Hey, let's talk about, uh,

let's, let's listen in before we get into, uh, to everything. Let's hear what Pierre Poliev said, how he reacted to the Ukraine-Russia-Trump dynamic. The aggressor in this conflict is Russia. Russia carried out an unprovoked invasion of Ukraine, an invasion that has been mercilessly prosecuting for the last three years. And Ukraine has been the victim of that invasion. All democracies need to stand with Ukrainians and their right to defend themselves and reclaim their territory. And any suggestion to the contrary is wrong.

I would further add that Canada could have helped defund Putin. We could have approved the Energy East pipeline, which would have sent a million barrels of Western Canadian oil to the Atlantic where it could have been shipped to Europe. We could have approved LNG projects in Quebec and Atlantic Canada as the Germans, the Ukrainians, the Greeks and others pleaded with us to do. All of that would have broken dependence on Putin. So I subscribe to almost everything he said. The one thing I probably would take issue with Adam is I don't believe there's a scenario or a path for Ukraine to reclaim any of its lost territory.

I just I don't I don't see that in the offing. What do you think? Well, I think that under the current level of support that they're receiving, that's impossible because under the Biden administration, Ukraine received just enough weapons to survive, but not to actually win. And what I really want to emphasize is that the amount of aid being sent to Ukraine is constantly exaggerated. The US provided only about, you know, 5% of its annual defense budget to Ukraine. Predominantly, they provided old weapons from the 80s and 90s, and then spent money replacing those weapons with newer

items, and essentially stimulated, you know, American manufacturing. So Ukraine was getting old stuff. And even with that, he was able to reclaim large swaths of its territory. Let's not forget that northern Ukraine was mostly occupied, the Northeast was occupied. I think retaking Crimea is impossible, but I think that if the US had taken this more seriously, that we could have seen a liberated Donbass by now. Yeah. What do you make, Adam,

of what we witnessed in the Oval Office on Friday? I mean, it seemed like a premeditated ambush. I watched the entire 45 minute conversation and for the first 35 minutes, everything was amicable. Each president was complimenting the other. They obviously had divergent understandings of the war. So Zelensky often emphasized the suffering of his people. He talked about Ukrainian soldiers who are being beaten

and starved in Russia because they're POWs. He talked about the 20,000 Ukrainian children that were kidnapped by Russian forces at the beginning of the conflict and who are now being forcibly Russified. And he talked about how there needs to be security guarantees for Ukraine going forward because since 2014, since 2014, when Russia launched its initial shadow invasion of Eastern Ukraine, there's been no shortage of ceasefires. So the Ukrainians have signed ceasefire after ceasefire after ceasefire with the Russians only for the Russians to break those agreements time and time again,

leading up to this invasion. But towards the very end, Trump, so a journalist asked Trump, are you on either side? And Trump said, No, I'm not on either side. You know, you have to be neutral to make a deal. And then he immediately segwayed into vilifying Zelensky. Yeah. Yeah. He said, Oh, you know, Zelensky got so much hatred for Putin. How can you deal with someone with so much hatred? But world leaders aren't supposed to be stoic when their people are being killed and their women are being raped. Yeah, I am.

I will forever be perplexed by this this president's specific interpretation of of the history of the of this war. And the fact that he has called Zelensky a dictator, the fact that he restored normal diplomatic relations with Russia with no preconditions, the fact that he started talking about a negotiated peace with Putin and Zelensky wasn't even at the table. These are things that I shake my head at, they do not make any sense. Is there is there a logic in this that you can see? No, because I think that, look, I think that the way they're trying to sell this is they're trying to forge an alliance with Russia to team up against China,

basically reversal of the policy that we saw in the United States in the 1970s, where they unexpectedly allied with China to contain the Soviet Union. But I think that's deeply unrealistic and betrays the foreign policy naivety of the Trump administration. But the way that they kind of look at this, they say, oh, we've tried war, therefore we need to have a diplomatic solution, we need to negotiate peace. That's what Vance said at the very end. But they're not actually offering a sustainable peace because they don't want to guarantee providing any security guarantees to the Ukrainians. And so JD Vance said, you know, we're going to try a diplomatic solution. And Zelensky calmly and reasonably pointed out that that might not be realistic if the Russians keep on breaking every single ceasefire they've ever signed.

So if you want that ceasefire to stay in place, you need security guarantees for Ukraine. Otherwise, the Russians are just going to attack again. And then Zelensky sorry, Vance's mood really soured. Yeah. And he started condescendingly Hector, the Ukrainian president saying it was disrespectful to bring up that point, even though it's a very reasonable point. You know, he he said that Ukraine doesn't have enough manpower, which is absurd. There are millions and millions and millions of men in Ukraine. And Zelensky said, well, have you have you been to Ukraine? And Dan said, no, you know, I watched basically online.

And he said that any visit to Ukraine would be a propaganda tour, which is, which is insane. Well, yeah, he wouldn't be a just an average journalist on the street who's been you'd be going there as the vice president, you go wherever you want. Yeah, you can go wherever you want. Yeah. And that's the thing, you know, I've been a journalist on the ground. I know tons of journalists who work on the ground on the grassroots level. You can basically go wherever you want. And you can see the realities and the realities correspond to what what Zelensky is saying, which is that Ukrainians want the weapons needed to protect themselves. And Russia has been aggressively destroying Ukrainian cities and taking Ukrainian lives

away. And I get really annoyed with all these people who say, oh, you're a warmongerer. Most of the people who say that have never stepped foot inside Ukraine. Yeah. They have no clue what Ukrainians think. This is all just a video game to them. And when you actually talk to Ukrainians, you see that the reality is entirely different. Really quickly, because we're running out of time, but there's talk of the president is going to be giving a speech, a joint session of Congress tomorrow. And there is speculation. All we can

do is speculate with Donald Trump because we don't know what he's going to do. But there's speculation that he's going to lay out a plan for, for the United States to possibly leave NATO. Now, let's live in a world where that's a possibility. How does that play into this? Well, the world becomes incredibly more dangerous because the reason why there hasn't been widespread nuclear proliferation is that most states trust that they will be safe under NATO's nuclear umbrella, right, Or the United States is nuclear umbrella. So if the US leads NATO, that means nuclearization in Germany, potentially Poland, likely South Korea and Japan. And once that gets started, no one's going to get their nuclear weapons away because Ukraine did

that in 1994. And we saw what happened there. And they did so at the at the behest of the United States who said we will be there for you. And they did so at the at the behest of the United States, who said we will be there for you. And they gave away the third largest stockpile of nuclear weapons on the planet voluntarily because they believe the United States would always be an ally. Exactly. So if the United States becomes isolationist, if it leaves NATO, we're going to see a more dangerous world with more nuclear armed middle powers that do not trust their superpower allies.

And that's going to increase the risk of a catastrophic world war that will leave us all vaporized. And this is what I'm deeply concerned about. Adam Ziva, thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate it. Important topic. Pleasure to be here. Daniel Blanchard is no ordinary thief. His heists are ingenious.

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