The Ben Mulroney Show - Best of the Week Part 1 - Bonnie Crombie, Alan Cross, Tony Chapman

Episode Date: March 1, 2025

Best of the Week Part 1 - Bonnie Crombie, Alan Cross, Tony Chapman Guests: Bonnie Crombie, Brett Belchetz, Tony Chapman, Marcel Wieder, Sharan Kaur, Alan Cross If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! https://globalnews.ca/national/program/the-ben-mulroney-show Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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With partial shares from TD Direct Investing, you can own less than one full share, so expensive stocks are within reach. Learn more at td.com slash partial shares. TD, ready for you. Welcome to the Ben Mulroney Best of the Week podcast. We had so many great interviews this week, including a chat with Bonnie Crombie, where I put her to the test on why she wants to be the next premier of Ontario. An alarming interview about the biggest problems in emergency rooms. And Alan Cross joins me to talk about the trillion dollar lawsuit that changed the music industry forever. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show. And in just two days, this province will be

going to the polls. Actually, most of us I think only 6% of us used availed ourselves of the advanced poll. So a lot of people still to vote in this election where Doug Ford and his progressive conservatives are attempting to get a third consecutive majority, but not if my next guest has anything to say about it. Please welcome to the Ben Mulroney show Bonnie Cromby, the leader of the Ontario Liberal Party. Good morning, Ben. Thank you. Love that music. That really pumped me up. Bonnie, like this is the sprint at the end of the campaign. How do you feel right now?

I feel really good. I mean, it's been an incredibly short, fast campaign. But we are breaking through. We are resonating. I can feel the momentum, the wind in our sails. I hear it at the doors, everyone I meet that goes, come on, you keep going, girl, you got this. So that's why I'm asking people, I ask them every do you have a family doctor and if the answer is no I said

well the only the only choice you have is to change the government and the only way we're gonna change the government is to vote Ontario liberals we're gonna get into all that stuff in a moment but if you had your druthers you will be elected the premier of this province and your counterpoint in Ottawa would be according to these reports, Mark Carney as federal liberal leader because you are set to endorse the man. So yes, I think we need a strong leader right now decisive, someone with a lot of experience with respect to the economy.

And I think Mark is that man. I think he's the guy that will stand up in the face of tariffs with Donald Trump. But yet he's the guy who will also get the basics right at home here for people in Canada. And that's so important to me to get the basics right for people. So it's my team and his team have worked together in the past as you well know. We have supported each other and I want to thank him for his support of me and my campaign and what we're trying to accomplish here in Ontario. Well you've criticized the previous government about the reason for this election and focusing on Donald Trump. But if

Trump is taken at his word, tariffs are coming. So whoever forms government we're going to is going to be thrust into it immediately. How do you handle Donald Trump differently or better than Doug Ford? So it starts with having started seven years ago when you first get elected and having a plan to deal with bolstering our economy and diversifying our economy, not putting all our eggs into the EV basket. Let's start there and now we see the Stellantis plant potentially closing in Brampton, that's 2,200 jobs. So where did we insulate the economy and diversify it? What about our trading

partners? What could we have done better? What about breaking down inter-provincial trade? Do you know that Jason Kenney, when he was Premier of Alberta, tried to get the other Premiers onside and the one holdout was Doug Ford. So we could have been trading with other provinces but that didn't happen. But with respect, Bonnie, I'm asking what you would do differently, not all the stuff that's not been done right in the past. So we need a strong, united approach with our federal government. We need to be there for them and we need a lot of patriotism right now and to stand up. But we need to buy local.

Like yesterday I was in speaking with the folks in Hamilton and local procurement is so important. We need to buy Ontario produced steel, go Hamilton steel workers of course. So we have a different approach, but a United Team Canada approach is what we need right now. All the premiers to come together. And believe me, there's not a premier in Canada who would choose this moment right now

to have called an election. They need to have their foot on the gas. They need to be prepared. They need to be at their desk working to protect jobs, not just their own job, Ben. One of your promises on the campaign was to install safety barriers at every TTC subway station in Toronto.

Now you've promised the details in the fully costed platform. I don't see the specifics yet. The reason I ask is that John Tory in 2018 said that it would cost Northward of a billion dollars and that was seven years ago. So I'm assuming after seven years that cost has doubled, maybe tripled. And I like, I like the idea. I've seen it in Japan, for example, but for us to retrofit the entire TTC would be a really tall mountain to climb.

So what we're talking about is safety and security, right? And we know that violent crime is up about 350% since Doug Ford took office. We see carjackings and home invasions, violent crime generally, and we see a threat on the subways. People don't feel safe riding the subways, um, late at night or early morning.

It doesn't matter. So yes, we need to make that kind of investment. And what, what would that investment be? What's the, what's the number? You know, it's a phased in investment and my, my take of it is about 35 million a station, by the way. And you would do, you know, young and bluer, and

then you would do Scarborough and you would roll that out over time, but it needs to get done. And I think everyone agrees with me. They, they want more to feel safer and more secure on the, on the subway system here in Toronto, put up those barriers, have those security individuals walking through the subway cars. I mean, we, we've all ridden the subway, you know,

it's it doesn't feel safe anymore. It life doesn't feel safe anymore. I'm glad I'm glad you said that because that dovetails right into my next question. The city doesn't necessarily feel as safe. And one of the reasons I believe is the is the incessant threat of that a protest Hamas protest could pop up at any point. And one of the things I like in your platform was that you would ban organizing, participating

in hate motivated activities or protested in site violence or intimidation within a hundred meters of the property line of any vulnerable social infrastructure. Used examples of places of worship, schools, childcare centers, hospitals, all great ideas I think. We saw protesters this weekend try to intimidate Bill Blair at his residence. Now, how would you... It's just so wrong.

And the frustration, Bonnie, is we feel that there might be some sort of plan by the city to tell the police back off. We don't want you to do too, too much. How would you communicate your priority to the city? So look, tone at the top, right? We have to make a firm stand against hatred, against anti-Semitism. we need that bubble legislation I think it's so important people need to feel safe in their place of worship bottom line they want to go into their into their mosque into their synagogue into their church and feel safe that they can go in and pray without threat and that

is vitally important and I think it's the same of individuals at home and Bill Blair shouldn't be facing that. Okay, so I don't know much about a budget and I'm not a politician but I am in communications. And so I want to talk to you about a head scratcher that I heard from you a few days ago when you said you'd be open to working with the NDP in a minority government situation. I never said a thing like that. Come on. I didn't get it. If I'm part of your team or if I'm on team Bonnie and I say I'd say, well, I'm sorry. I thought we were playing for first place. We absolutely are. We were in it to win it. Let's start right there. You know, you watch hockey, look what happens in the last minute of play. You watch football. How many touchdowns in the last minute of play. We are playing to the very end.

We are in this to win this. But why answer that question Bonnie? Why not say I'm focused on winning this election? I am focused on winning this election. I don't know what context that was taken out of, but we are focused to win. I feel it. I feel it at the doors. I feel it on the streets.

We have momentum. We have them. And you know what? The only way we're going to accomplish what we want to accomplish is to welcome people I feel it at the doors, I feel it on the streets. We have momentum. We have them. And you know what? The only way we're going to accomplish what we want to accomplish is to welcome people from other parties who may have voted for another party in the past. Loan us your vote this time if you want to have a family doctor. If you want tax cuts, you got to vote Ontario Liberal.

And so that's my pitch to everyone today. But how do you square that circle that you're willing that you're because you're pitching a centrist message that should appeal to the meat of the order right in the center and then to say, and but we'd be willing to work with the leftist NDP. We've seen it play out in Ottawa. Yeah, we need everyone. People do not like that. But that's the specter people don't want. I'm telling you the messaging is no good. It's no bueno, Bonnie. I think it was I think it was out of context, Ben, honestly, we need everyone to come together

for sure, right? It's a centrist message. So everyone, anyone who has voted for another party, there are liberals that may have voted for another party. You need to come back. This is the time if you want tax cuts, you want a family doctor, if you want to reduce wait times in hospitals, we need to change the government. The only way we're going to change the government is if we all come together and we all vote Ontario Liberal on February 27th.

So you just mentioned the doctors and you've been very vocal about connecting two and a half million more people with a family doctor. You said it could be accomplished in four years, but unless we have those people in the pipeline, yeah, that can't happen. Yeah, no, no, we have a plan. So where are those people?

Because you can't just divine them. Yeah, no, we have a plan. So where are those people? Because you can't just divide them. Yeah, no, I got a three-prong approach. One is to attract, retain, retain more doctors. The other one is to ensure that we have the capacity, the operating, that hospitals are paid their operating costs and more nurses and PSWs that are paid a living wage inequitably and that we fund mental health. And that's so vitally important for our young people.

But so the doctors, we got them in the pipeline. We got to double the residency programs. We got to double the number through the mentorship program called Practice Ready Ontario. We got to keep people in place who are about to retire and attract docs back from other disciplines. And, you know, attract our young people who have been trained abroad. Bring them back. They have no path back because the residency programs are half the numbers that they are in other provinces. I can't tell you how many doctors I've heard who've left this province for Texas.

Right, you have to pay them properly, Ben. But our dollar is in the tank compared to the United States. So how, that retention thing, I don't understand how we can get there. We can't compete on price. Yeah, so they want to be here because this is where they grew up and this is where their families are. It's the best country in the world. But that was the choice. We're going to bring them back. You know, we got to pay them properly.

That's number one. We got to pay them properly. And I have an incentive plan. It's a kind of a little patriotic plan right now. I'll pay your moving costs to come back. $150,000. Come back to Canada. Maybe you're in Detroit. Come back to Windsor. Maybe you you're in Buffalo come back upstate New York California I don't care come back to Canada we need you here. Bonnie Crombie the Ontario Liberal Leader two days out from the election thank you so much don't go anywhere we've got more with Bonnie Crombie after the break on the Ben Mulroney show. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney Show. So happy to have Ontario liberal leader Bonnie

Crombie in studio with me today. Two days out from the election. I appreciate your time. I appreciate you coming in and answering my questions. I like to think that the questions I asked are the questions that matter to our listeners. Great. And so thank you so much. Right before the break, we were talking about the liberal plan to add more doctors into the system. Yeah. You also touched on how you want to make mental health eligible under under OHIP, which I think is a laudable goal. But we've got to talk about the cost of something like that. Because when you when my contention is that for those

people have to pay out of pocket for it, they'll grin and they'll grit and bear it, which means we don't know how many people are suffering, they're suffering in silence. That's right. And so if all of a sudden you open up the floodgates and say it is now covered by OHIP, the number of people and the number of claims could triple. Look, so a couple things. Obviously, there'll be some strict parameters about how many visits you get, etc. But look at what's the cost of not doing it is the bigger question here, Ben. And I look at our young people and they seem to be disproportionately suffering with anxiety and mental health issues and eating disorders and and drug addiction quite frankly.

And we need to ensure that they get the counseling the treatment and the help that they need. It's so vitally important and you well know that I'm personally affected by this. I was a young child and my dad, my biological father had some serious addiction, alcohol addiction issues, but his life spiraled and it took him away from me and my mom. And you know, he spent the latter years of his life at the Seton house and thankfully he had some

supportive housing. It's a men's shelter in Toronto and they gave him the counseling and the treatment and recovery. So I know how vitally important it is for people of housing, it's a men's shelter in Toronto and they gave him the counseling and the treatment and recovery. So I know how vitally important it is for people to get that kind of treatment. People who want it can't get it. There are long lineups at facilities and they can't afford, many can't afford to pay for it themselves in private clinics. So yes, we absolutely need to do it. Mental health is health care and should be covered under OHIP.

And so how we would structure it is if you don't have a package offered by your employer and I think most people don't, we will provide you with some counseling and some... Is there a cost associated with this? It's about a billion dollars once it's up fully running, right? And we know money exists because we know the federal government transfers money in for health care etc and it gets put into general revenue and never used for health care. So absolutely the money exists in the system and it's vitally important. The cost of the economy I would argue is greater. Look at the effect on our young people. Even eating disorders as well. The young people

are the concern. They are the iceberg, right? That's right. Because if the polls are to be believed, the surveys and studies are to be believed, the younger generation, those that are in high school right now, they are the ones, it's the highest rates of anxiety. It's anxiety, right? It's suicide rates among young people. And here we see, you know, they have the highest unemployment rate too. And you got to wonder, they don't have opportunity on the other end for jobs, but maybe many of them are crippled with anxiety and the highest unemployment rate too. And you gotta wonder, they don't have opportunity on the other end for jobs,

but maybe many of them are crippled with anxiety and other mental health issues too. Now you say you'll fund some of these promises by finding $7.1 billion in savings, value, efficiency, and reallocation of existing spending, but there are no details. So how are you sure you're gonna find these? So our program is really affordable. It's nine billion dollars net new. So yes a lot of it is

reallocation of money that's there now. Obviously there won't be any waste like there is today. Now I'm a mayor of a former mayor of a city that found five million in savings every year. I know how to look for more efficiencies. We'll have an office of cost control that will analyze you know look for more efficiencies, we'll have an office of cost control that will analyze, you know, look for efficiencies in programs like Lean. You're gonna have your own dose. I'm gonna, but listen, we're not gonna give away two billion dollars to a foreign-owned spa, right? We're not gonna spend two billion to expedite the sale of beer and wine or even give you a $200 pre-election check that cost our

car, it cost us three billion dollars or seven right there Ben seven billion right there. Where do you see is there a role for technology in government where it has doesn't exist yet I mean can you can. And AI is going to play such a huge role we can't even define what that's going to look like right now it's going to take many jobs too so we have to ensure our young people are trained for the jobs of tomorrow so yes, I've committed as well to fund our colleges, our universities properly, build 90 new elementary and post-secondary schools,

you know, hire more teachers to a one-year teachers program. Get those special ed teachers in the school and pay them properly for goodness sakes and even offer a lunch program for our young people. When governments have been in power as long as Doug Ford's government has been, there's a lot of targets there. It's a target-rich environment for its critics. Are there any key policy initiatives of the previous Doug Ford governments that you would unwind? Well, so many of them, right, but at the same time I've been told you need to build on what exists. You know, there are health care measures in place that are

not well thought through, but why reinvent the wheel if something's working? Invest in it, fund it properly to make it work. Like our hospitals are well, are working well. They're just underfunded and you know, we could find some efficiencies there as well. We need to hire more doctors, we well know. Nurses and PSWs and pay them properly. The reality is we need to focus on the basics. So it's our healthcare. It's finding family doctors, reducing wait times in our hospitals. It's hiring teachers, right?

It's getting our education system, which is crumbling up to speed. It's making life more affordable for people. The government's platform does nothing to making life more affordable for people. You know, this government platform does nothing to make life more affordable for people and we're offering tax cuts. We're gonna take the HST off home heating and hydro. That'll put $1,150 back in your pocket. That's huge. And we'll build housing that's affordable. They started out, listen, even as a former mayor. I was excited about one five million homes we're gonna build. We haven't done it. We built more homes in 1955. Their record is

abysmal. Let's focus on that and how do we improve it and I would of course remove the development charges which are those hidden taxes which will save you $170,000 in the price of your home. I canceled the land transfer tax. If you're a first-time homebuyer, senior or a not for profit. That's another 13,000. We're going to make building more affordable and we're going to make the price of a home more affordable for people. But with respect, Bonnie, they've been in power for eight years. Are there any policy specific policies that the Tories have enacted over the past eight years or six years? No, you're right. Yeah. Oh, seven years.

Yeah. Seven, right? Seven years, but any specific policies that you, on day one you're coming in and saying, no, we're getting rid of that, that was not good for Ontario. Well, we're getting rid of a lot of it. I mean, this abuse of the notwithstanding clause,

let's even start there. And the waste, the giveaways to, you know, when you look at, even look at their platform, it's all to do with rich insiders, lobbyists, everything is about big business. I'm about the small businesses, you know, let's give them the tax cut to keep them going. Not like these big corporations that always seem to be profiting, the big box, the multinationals, you know, those US and other foreign owned companies. Let's eliminate all that, all that, you know, the waste going to

these big companies that have been prioritized, the rich insiders that are that are profiting. We're all hoping with the exception of some true believers that the carbon tax will go the way the dodo bird at the next federal election, we will see some savings there. But the progressive conservatives have committed to permanently cut the provincial tax on on gas, saving another 5.7 cents per liter, would you commit to doing the same? They could have done that long ago. And let me just be very clear about the carbon tax. I do not support a carbon tax. People are struggling. You know, I watch them, they can't pay their rent and buy groceries and their cell bill, cell phone bill all in the same month. This is not a time for a new tax on people. So I have committed there will be no carbon tax.

We will not tax consumers, right, or farmers for that matter, but we will make big polluters pay at the end of the day. Okay, so I wasn't clear on the answer, gas tax. Yes, we could easily make that permanent. It's a needed source of revenue for municipalities. Most of them put it into their public transit infrastructure. So I'm confused. So you could get rid of it, but you're not going to? No, I said we would. Oh, you would?

OK, OK. Then my fault. I apologize. Last question, Bonnie. You have the ear of a large number of voters. We would continue to cut the gas tax and keep it in place. So we're you know, you and I are looking at each other eyeball to eyeball and not understanding each other. I heard we will continue with the gas tax. Okay, you will continue to cut the gas tax.

Very good. Last question, because you got a lot of Ontario listeners right now. Why should Bonnie Cromby be the next Premier? You know, Bonnie Cromby is someone who believes we need to get the basics right. We need to have a strong response federally to our federal government and to the response that's needed south of the border. But the reality is we need a Premier who will do that and get the basics right for people. People are struggling in Ontario right now.

Two and a half million people don't have access to a family doctor. Our wait times in hospitals are 20-22 hours long. People don't find life affordable. I always ask them is your life more affordable under Doug Ford? The answer is clearly no. We're going to cut their taxes. We're going to take the HST off of home heating and hydro and that'll make their life more affordable by $1,150 every single year and we're going to build homes not just tall and sprawl, homes that are affordable for people to buy, our young people like my own children who said you know mom we married we want to start a family we can't afford a home.

Seniors who need to downsize take care of our seniors. So if you want a family doctor, if you want some tax cuts, you want to make life more affordable, then you got to vote Ontario Liberals. The only way we're going to get those things is if we change the government, we have the wind in our sails, we have the momentum. I'm asking you may have voted for another party in the past, please vote Ontario Liberal on Thursday, February 27th. Bond and Crombie, Ontario Liberal leader, thank you so much. We really appreciate you coming in and spending two segments with us here on The Ben Mulroney Show. And you got a couple of days left, so we're going to let you get to it. Thanks so much.

Thank you, Ben. I've got this condition where I don't feel pain. You're a superhero. This is how intense Nova Kane sounds. Imagine how it looks. Same one. Yeah, big time. Nova Cane,

only in theaters March 14th. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show. Thank you so much for spending time with us on this Monday morning. The Ontario Provincial Election is in full swing. We'll be going to the polls on Thursday. We'll have a new government by then. But the talk going to the polls on Thursday. We'll have a new government by then. But the talk of the town is health care. And Doug Ford has been slammed by his rivals over comments about emergency rooms. He's suspected that one of the reasons our emergency

rooms are so clogged and the wait times are so abysmal is because a number of people are going to the emergency room who do not require ER attention. That what they have, their ailment does not rise to the level of ER attention. And so rather than, first of all, we're gonna take the politics out of this. This is not about the election.

This is about a question, is this true? And so we're first of all, we're gonna take the politics out of this. This is not about the election. This is about a question. Is this true? And so we're gonna talk to somebody who actually works in an ER and ER physician and the CEO of get maple.ca Dr. Brett Belchetz. Dr. Welcome to the show. Good morning. Thank you for having me. So what do you make of this?

I have to assume that some people do end up in an ER that don't belong there. But is it so many that it is causing a choke point? Well, this is one of those questions where the answer is not as simple as it would appear. And that is largely because not all emergency rooms are created equal. We have very different experiences in emergency rooms

across the province. So in a busy downtown emergency room, it is not the same set of issues that would be faced by a rural emergency room, say in Northern Ontario. And the reality is, you know, when we look at the causes of why a waiting room would be clogged, the statement that it is due to minor illnesses probably would be very true in rural Ontario, where, you know, I've worked throughout rural Ontario working

in emergency rooms. And what I've seen when I'm there is that a huge percentage of the cases that are in those emergency rooms are people coming in and treating the emergency room as a family practice. Why are they doing that? That's because they have nowhere else to go. Well, exactly. And that, doctor, I think that bears like, let's, let's pause there and talk about that. The fact that so many Ontarians do not have a primary care doctor, a family doctor means that if they have something wrong with them, they're going to go to the the lowest friction point to see a doctor, which is probably the emergency room.

That's absolutely true. People need help. And when they're worried about their own health, or the health of their kids, they're not thinking, is it appropriate for me to go to the emergency room? What they're thinking is, this is the only place that is available. And that's where I'm going to go. Now, the good news is, and this is why it is frustrating how politicized this is, the good news is that this is a relatively easier part of the emergency room problem to solve. There are great solutions even being used in other parts of the country. If you look at Nova Scotia, where

they've used technology extensively to solve for this, they've achieved a 10% reduction in the number of emergency room visits for lower acuity issues. Dr. Talk to me about those technology choices that Nova Scotia has made that we could import to Ontario. So a great example is, you know, in the space that I work in, Nova Scotia has implemented something called virtual primary care. So essentially, what they did is they put in place a program where every single person in the province of Nova Scotia who does not have access to a family doctor is put into a program where they are cared for

by a group of family doctors who provide something called virtual primary care. So basically any day of the week, they can come in and get their primary care needs met. 70% or so of those issues are going to be fully addressed in that virtual primary care clinic. And then that system allows for them to be seen in person at family doctors clinics when they can't be fully cared for virtually works really,

really well. And the people on that program are very happy and it is taking huge strain off of their emergency room system. Yeah, but as an emergency room doctor, you the workload for you and your team and people like you across this province must be incredible the strain that you guys are under. It must be frustrating when people do come in and and and what ails them is not something that should be treated in the ER but you have an obligation to care for them. Well, I would

say it doesn't frustrate me as much as it used to and I think you know, in the early days of working in the emergency room, I would get very frustrated when I would see people coming in and thinking that, you know, you should have seen your family doctor. But the more I speak to these patients, the more I understand that the reason that they're there really is because they have nowhere else to go. But I will say that in urban emergency rooms, the number one reason for crowding is not that issue. In an urban emergency room, the number one reason for crowding is not that issue. In an urban emergency room, the number one reason why your emergency room is usually

quite crowded is that we don't have enough beds in the hospital. We haven't figured out ways to discharge patients from the hospital inpatient beds, which means that the really sick patients that in the emergency room when they need to be admitted, there's nowhere for them to go into the hospital and bit by bit they clog up the emergency room. And when there's no beds for a doctor to see you in the emergency room, that means you're going to have a clogged up waiting room and very long wait times. Wait, so doctor, you're saying that the issue is that we've got people in the hospital who've been in a bed and we don't know how to discharge them? That is the biggest issue I think that we face in our system. It's that we have hospitals that are on an ongoing basis,

and this is in urban emergency rooms. Remember I said this is not a simple issue. We have different problems in different hospitals. So again, this is why I frown on anybody that says there's a one size fits all simple. No magic bullet. Exactly, it's nuance. But what we see in an urban emergency room

is that almost all of them, the hospitals, are operating at over 100% capacity for their inpatient units which means that every bed is full and the biggest reason why every bed is full is that in a hospital setting when we have inpatients, once a patient is stabilized the ideal thing is for us to be able to discharge them from hospital not to home because most patients after a few days of care are not safe to go home but the ideal thing is to discharge them to a lower level of care where they can still get help from nurses and help from personal support workers and all the

things they need without that high intensity of medical care that you would get in the hospital. And we do not have that for the most part in Canada, across Canada, there is generally nowhere other than home to discharge patients to, which means that patients have to wait days and days and days, sometimes weeks, sometimes months until they're physically able to go home without any support. And that is, I think, the biggest issue in our system. And the choice that the hospital is making, they look at the situation that the patient is in and they say, all right, it makes more sense to keep them here rather than send them

home because there isn, there's, there isn't that middle ground. Is that what you're saying? Exactly. So if I'm treating somebody who's 85 years old, who I've treated their acute medical issue, but they're too weak to get up out of bed, there's nothing new for me to treat medically, but I can't send somebody home alone to their apartment who is 85 years old and can't sit up out of bed. I need a facility where it's not acute medical care,

but where somebody can take care of their basic needs until they're strong enough to actually live independently. And we're missing that. How big of a puzzle piece is this middle ground that we're talking about here? How many of these facilities would we have to build in Ontario to solve this very specific problem that you've brought up of not being able

to discharge people quick enough? I don't have an exact number for you. But I think the critical thing here to note is that it is much, much cheaper to build facilities like that, than to build more hospitals. And it does seem in our systems across the country, the answer is always let's build more hospitals rather than build those cheaper facilities. So I think, you know, I'd love to be able to speak to you later date and give you the exact numbers. So I think, you know, I'd love to be able to speak to you at a later date and give you the exact numbers, but I think just logically, when we're trying to get the most value out of every dollar that we spend in healthcare, let's spend it

where it's cheaper to build beds, cheaper to service beds, which is a lower level of care facility than building whole new hospitals, which are again, just going to fill up with the same issue. So the answer, if I can synthesize, is technology to get people in the door and facilities that are a middle ground between the home and the hospital to get people out the door. That's the solution. That is a huge part of the solution, yes. Dr. Brett Belchetz, thank you so much for joining us and giving us a lay of the land.

My pleasure. Thanks for having me. All right, I'm very pleased for our weekly chat with Tony Chapman, the host of the award winning podcast chatter that matters and the founder of chatter AI. Tony, welcome to the show. Always a pleasure to be here. Okay, so this first story that we're gonna talk about does not shouldn't surprise anybody because we've seen the writing on the wall for months. Netflix wants to go after the grand aim of live events, Sunday football.

Yeah, it's an amazing move on their part and it really will spell the end of what I consider cable TV because that's the last bastion of point in television is live sports. Well, it's live sports but also live news is also the one thing that we were told streaming was never going to be able to do. Yeah. I mean, listen, live news is one element, but I would argue we get news 24 hours a day is within our interest. You should desire. Look at your podcast. It's one of the most popular podcasts. I don't have to listen to you on the radio. I can get it anywhere.

When it comes to sports, especially the NFL and in the States, that was one of the reasons I held onto my cable package. That's one of the reasons I bought ESPN. And Netflix made a move when they got the Christmas game. And I tell you something, they didn't just get anger, the networks, Amazon was angry because Amazon thought they had the first mover advantage. So what the NFL is doing is playing a game of cards. And instead of the, you know, the Fox versus CBS and a limited war chest, they now have unlimited war chest lining up to bid because whoever gets the NFL rights is going to have stickiness. And when you come to subscription services, you want to have people that not only just get you because they want to watch the next morning show, you want people to stay with you. And that's what the NFL is. It's stickiness. And believe me, those NFL owners are going to demand a huge bid for that bounty.

Talk to me about the scale of the return on this sort of investment. Could Netflix live sports, could that division potentially be more lucrative than the TV shows and movies that they have in their catalog? You know, it's again, it comes down to how many additional subscribers and how much I reduce churn. So what they will measure that on is very different than the old days is can I sell advertising to support this investment, they'll look at it and say, if I'm getting a multiple in the stock market at 10x, because subscriber's worth more than a one-off customer, and the NFL is driving new subscriptions and they're driving less churn, the value of that business is billions and billions of dollars. So that's how they're going to look at it.

What is my market capitalization? And then the cost of production, when you think about the cost of producing an NFL game versus bringing in big stars for that series that might be a hit or not. Again, it makes really good business sense for them to be building this business. And one thing I want to add to it, look at what they did with Formula One with Drive to Survive. They can take their content and they can turn it like liquid across every touch point. So it's not just the football game.

Let's get behind the scenes of the quarterbacks. Let's get into the dress room. Let's get behind the scenes of the quarterbacks. Let's get into the dress room. Let's look at all the different drama that goes with it. So the NFL knows that there's a new sheriff in town. It's called Streaming Services. And they are licking their chops in terms of what this is worth. This also opens the door for a bump

in how much you pay for Netflix. Because I'm currently paying for whatever I'm paying for Netflix that doesn't include this package. If all of a sudden they bring that bonus package on, they can justify a higher cost. Justify a higher cost. They also have the data on you that you're willing to do it. They also will know, are you a sports gambler?

Do you buy merchandise? Then the data is the new oil. And all this is doing is giving them increased, wow, not only did you subscribe to it, you actually watch 14 hours and 22 minutes and 11 seconds of football every week. And that's exactly what they know with this data. So you understand that people don't realize that data, monetization of data is what's driving the new economy and live eyeballs to sports is data for them.

They'll also know, by the way, what are they going to charge for ads within the game? Are you going to buy the premium package that's ad free? Or are you going to buy the package that includes ads? They're going to slice and dice this thing. It's going to be a money machine for all parties. And I saw you CBS and Fox are just going to be left. They I don't care what they show up with a war chest. They can't compete when it comes to data and the monetization of it. Well, Tony Chapman, I think we need to pause for a moment of silence because the sad news

that the world will be losing Hooters. Hooters is as prepared to file for bankruptcy amid declining foot traffic. And I got to ask, does sex not sell anymore? Did the internet kill Hooters? Because I could just order wings to my house and see pretty girls streaming on my computer. I think what really hurt Hooters is that

as the world moved on, they didn't march and step. And I think the fact that everybody has a cell phone and people were probably walking out of Hooters with their hoodies up and sunglasses on, hoping not to be discovered because they would be on the internet. I think Hooters is just, you know, but they're not the only ones. The sad thing about the restaurant industry, it's struggling. And once again, and I don't want to sidebar, it's one another example of private equity. These are people that have a lot of money saying I can go in, buy the Hooters franchise, squeeze the costs out,

and resell it again and make a fortune. And time and time again, when it's come to the restaurant business, including Red Lobsters of the World, Venture Capital has no idea what restaurants, what it takes to run a restaurant. And very often they're left with putting a lot of money in and watching it all evaporate.

And Hooters is just a great example of that. Well, you know, I wanna talk about the American mall and the North American mall because the I think that the trend is similar up here in Canada but a lot of people were very quick to signal the death of retail and specifically the great American mall but there's a little bit of a rebirth a reinvention going on with these malls. Talk to me about how they're remaining relevant today. Well, the oxygen of retail is traffic. The only way you breathe life into your store is somebody walking in. Very quickly, malls were built when we had highways and suburbs.

And people said, that's a destination I'm going to go to because everything's there. Well, now everything's within arm's reach of desire. So the mall started collapsing because I can get anything I want on Amazon. So what are they doing different? They're taking their their parking lots and saying, what if we built condos and created density, created traffic around our malls and then re imagine the malls to include health centers and gyms, uh, social spaces, restaurants, entertainment, and of course shopping.

So instead of the old days where if I had a Sears or an Eaton's, I was the success story. Now is I actually need shopping. I need density. I need actual condos there. And if I put the condos up, they'll feed them all. Cadillac, Cadillac Fairview, by the way, Yorkdale of the world, I think has a plan for 14 condos. Yeah. The reality is will Toronto support new condo development? Because what we've seen right now is we have a surplus of condos and not enough buyers. But down the road, putting condos into your shopping centers is just smart move because it brings the traffic to the mall versus what Amazon's done

in bringing the traffic to your armchair. Yeah, but I really love this idea and we're seeing it happen in North America writ large where yes, they're adding the density because these malls in most urban centers are on subway lines or by the highway. So they're connected to everything. And you've got these, the former pillar tenants, the big box stores that aren't there anymore. That's a lot of real estate that you can put a school in or as you said like a health center and you make it you make the mall that the neighborhood to that condo. I think it's a brilliant idea. And I think we're going to see these communities come into these

close net there's going to be a moat around it and saying if I'm there and I live in a condo and I have everything in that mall and I can work remote or I don't have to go into work more than two or three days a week why would I leave that everything's within arm's reach again and I think everything in that mall, and I can work remote, or I don't have to go into work more than two or three days a week, why would I leave that? Everything's within arm's reach again. And I think that's smart marketing. When you understand the unmet need is convenience. I want convenience. Well, convenience is on my phone. Yeah, but I still want to be socializing. I still want to go to the movies. I still want to hang out with people. I want to go bowling. I want to have a roller coaster. I mean, whatever your density allows you,

I think that is just a great lesson for anybody listening. Stop worrying about what you do and focus on what matters most to the customer you're after, and then pivot your business accordingly. And the mall and the reinvention is a great example of that. But I think we should make the distinction. There's lots of different types of malls, right? We're talking about those big high-end malls.

There's the strip malls of the world. Those may be going the way of the dodo bird. Well, the strip mall, again, if it's positioned within a city market that I can walk to, that's convenience. But if it's just one of the many strip malls that were built because at the time was a license to print money, they're going to be in danger because, look, I don't want to go out in my car.

It's congestion. It's a mess. I can walk somewhere. So, I think it's interesting. We're almost going back in time where my walking score is everything. And a lot of people are saying that's what matters because either I don't have a car anymore, which is a lot of youth, they're not even getting driver's licenses, or I just don't want to battle. Tony, we're going to leave it there. Thank you so much. We'll talk to you next week. Always a pleasure, my friend. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show.

And listen, I didn't want to have to be subjected to this liberal leadership race. I was hoping it would just go to an election, but here is the world that we're in. And tonight, the liberal candidates are meeting in Montreal for a French language debate. Tomorrow is the English language debate. One absence from that stage is candidate Ruby Dalla, who has been unceremoniously turfed

from the campaign. Apparently there were inconsistencies, problems with her fundraising. They said it was a bridge too far. And so bye-bye, Ruby. Here to discuss all of the inner workings of the drama that is the liberal leadership. I'm joined by Marcel Weider, the liberal strategist and president and chief advocate of Aurora Strategy Global.

And I must point out that I have a professional relationship with Aurora and Sharon Carr, political strategist and partner at Sovereign Advisory. And she's also a recent colleague of mine here at 640 Toronto. To both of you, I say hello. Hello, Ben. Hello. Okay, so let's talk about the Ruby Dala of it all before we get into the debate.

Why? Well, because she promised that she was going to really debate. She was going to throw some haymakers. How could she? She doesn't even speak French. Well, okay, maybe not in the first debate, but certainly in the second one. She was going to really debate. She was going to throw some haymakers. How could she? She doesn't even speak French. Well, OK, maybe not in the first debate, but certainly in the second one, she was going to get. She doesn't participate in the first. How can she participate in the second?

Well, OK, no, no, let's let's let's call it. Let's call it what it is. She really wanted. She really wanted to tussle. Yes, because it's all about Ruby. Or it's all about a coronation for Mark Carney, the appearance of a debate, the appearance of a real fight, the appearance of differences, but not really.

There are 400,000 liberals who will choose a candidate. It's a ranked ballot. We don't know how that's going to play out. The majority of the membership that is signed up were former liberals. None of the leadership campaigns have said how many that they've signed up, so we don't know how many are committed to any one candidate.

Sharon, are you going to stick with this party line? Listen, I thought I was the number one fan of the crap on Ruby Dalla fan club, but you know what, Marcel? I have a personal reason. I'm sure you do. We all have one, actually. So listen, I understand optically for those who are not familiar with Ruby Dalla or the Liberal Party politics of Ruby Dalla might see this as something nefarious

or might see it as someone pushing her out. But for anybody who knows her, who's had a history of dealing with her, I'm sorry, but I am shocked it took this long to get her thrown out of it. This has always been purely about Ruby Dalla. The party gave her a list of questions to answer, which she was not transparent about. Everything with her has been, I am neck and neck with Carney. That's BS. She's purely in this for herself. And you know what? Good riddance. Absolutely.

All right. Well, listen, we will turn the page on Ruby Dalla and let's focus on these debates. The first in French, the second in English. Marcel, what can we expect? Because like I said, with her out of the race, I think it's going to be very polite. There are three different audiences that will be looking at this. First are the Liberal membership, that's who these candidates are going to be appealing to. The second is Canadians in general, and the third is Quebecers. That's the three audiences that each of the candidates have to appeal to. And in terms of the Liberals' members, the best indication is who is going to be able

to challenge Pierre Pauliève, because it's going to be a campaign against the conservatives versus liberals. The NDP is not a factor and in Quebec the bloc is dropped off. In fact under Carney the liberals have doubled from Trudeau from 22 to 44 and so that could pose a real problem for the conservatives because they need to have seats in Quebec to form a majority government. Sharon, this entire exercise of trying to reinvent the party in power, trying to reinvent the Liberal Party

as the vehicle for change from, even though they have been in power for nine years, that's a tough needle to thread. And it's all gonna be on there for us to see on television in the debate. Well, yeah, it's going to be interesting to watch. I actually think we might see a bit of firecrackers between the between Carney and Freeland on this because we have both Freeland and Karina Gold, who were members of this government, and Frank Bayless previously as well, and Carney, the guy who is the apparent outsider.

So I'm very interested to see how Krisha Freeland tries to push him as the PMO candidate, because she has. So it's gonna be hard for any of them to say that they're not part of this government, but I do think that Carney will probably lean into his, I'm actually from the outside. Now I know you have, and I've been trying to get him on the show to kind of push his way to show how he's the outsider. We have not succeeded yet, but

the night is young. Who knows? Maybe this week. I, I, I find it really interesting. I, I never thought that during this campaign, Marcel, that every, every significant, um, uh, candidate would have candidate would have rebuffed the signature policy of this liberal government which is the carbon tax you know when my father resigned every single there wasn't a single person who presented themselves for leadership of the progressive conservative party that it would have that deigned to say they were going to throw out the GST, for example. They all supported that. And here, this signature policy is being cast aside before this government has even been turned over.

Well, in the case of your father, your late father, the GST turned out to be the right policy decision. So, we can't criticize people for not wanting to support that. In the case of the carbon tax, it's one that has really created a number of fissions across the country. It's certainly, you know, both Carney and Freeland have said that they would remove it from the consumer side of things. And really that's where it should have been. It should have been on the producer side where the carbon tax should be applied and in Ontario and Quebec along with California they had a carbon exchange where they could sell credits and things like that and so it wasn't impacting directly on consumers and that was probably one of the best models out there.

We've seen carbon taxes in Europe and elsewhere. We have to deal with climate change. And that's one of the best avenues to deal with that. Sharon, the Liberal Party is experiencing a little bit of a bump right now in the polls. They're far better today than they were just a couple of months ago. What do they need to do? What do these candidates need to do collectively over the next couple of days to keep that wind in their sails? I don't think there's that much they can do truly. This tends to happen all the time,

but we are actually seeing a bit of a change in terms of how people actually felt about Trudeau. In addition to what's happening with the U.S., the focus has been over Canada, Canada into the US. So I would say don't say anything stupid in the next couple of days. Don't go out there saying the carbon tax is great, but I think for the most part, things are gonna be steady for the next several days.

The shift will come after the leader, if it's Carney or whoever else is elected. And I think that is when we'll see actual polls that are gonna tell us what we're looking at. Marcel, if you were advising anyone besides Mark Carney, who is the front runner, what would you tell them to do in these debates in order to score some points and tighten the gap between them? Well, first of all, you have to show leadership. I think you have to identify what Canadians are concerned about. And certainly the number one issue among Canadians is kind of US relations,

the Trump issue is dominating the headlines. The second is on affordability, that's concerning a lot of Canadians, it's getting tougher and harder to make ends meet and so you need to have a credible plan in order to gain the trust of Canadians and so presenting a well thought out plan would help your campaign and differentiate yourself. Sharon, there's a number that I find very interesting. Apparently the over-under is that Donald Trump's name will be mentioned 26.5 times in the debates. So it's really all about Donald Trump, isn't it?

Oh yeah, it's 100% about Donald Trump. And this is where that bump comes from. They're not going to do well when it comes to campaigning against Pierre Poliev, because it's really easy for Pierre Poliev to attach them to Trudeau, whose brand has been too toxic these days in our, I would say in our politics. So say Donald Trump, I'm surprised. I'm going to say it's going to be more like 70 or 80. But the more they say it, the more helpful it is to them. Absolutely. Sharon Carr, Marcel Weider, I want to thank you both very much. Are you gonna be watching? I'm gonna try.

I betcha. Listen, I will be watching too because I'm a policy wonk for this sort of thing. But again, I'm gonna say it one last time. This is not the election I wanted. But here we are we're subjected to it um and it's back on Wednesday. We will definitely talk about it then. I want to thank you both very much that's um uh Marcel Weider liberal strategist and president and chief advocate of Aurora Strategy Global and Sharon Carr. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show and I remember seeing something on social media last week

that point out that people of my generation grew up with records, then eight tracks, then cassettes, then CDs, then MP3 players, and now streaming. No other generation has had to buy more different types of media and then get rid of it because it was discontinued, it went obsolete and then buy something else. And the reason I tell you that is because our next guest,

Alan Cross, who's the host of the ongoing history of new music has written the story about how, what, 25 years ago, the music industry sued a couple of upstart companies for $72 trillion. Navster and limewire, they changed the music industry forever. But but it wasn't without some significant growing pains. Alan Cross, welcome to the Ben Mulroney show. Oh, glad to be here. So talk to me Alan about how

significant this moment in history was for the music industry. Well, let's let's go back to June 1 1999. That's when Napster was first introduced into the wild. And within a couple of years, well, not quite a couple, yeah, a couple of years ahead about 25 million users, the music industry had been completely caught flat footed by the transition from physical to digital and they couldn't really figure out how to combat it other than to try to sue everybody into existence. They had a lot of success with Napster. It took a while but over

about two years they managed to shut Napster down and then they turned their attention to all these other file sharing programs. There was Grokster, there was Bear Share, there was LimeWire, there was Kazaa, there was Audio Galaxy. There were a whole bunch of them. If you grew up in the early 2000s, you probably went from one to the other to the other, trying to find the songs that you were looking for and to make sure that the service was still in functioning in in functioning. Yeah. So what happened was that there were several companies that were sued by the Recording Industry Association of America and the biggest of those lawsuits was against Limewire which was run by a guy named Mark Groton. He or Mark Gordon, he wrote the program in early 2000. And it was a file sharing program. Now, when they finally got to him, they determined the Recording

Industry Association of America went to court and they found out that he had and I should also point out that by 2007, about two thirds, sorry, about one third of all computers on the planet, all personal computers on the planet had limewire installed. Wow. So that tells you exactly how many people were stealing music. Now, so they sued for 72 trillion, I'm guessing they didn't get 72 trillion. Now what they did was they focused on 11,000 songs, there is a statutory allotment of $150,000 per song infringed. And then they tried to make this connection between a sale and a

download and money lost as a result of that. And doing some quick back of the envelope calculations, they determined that if you were to add everything up, they would ask for 72 trillion with a T, 72 trillion dollars in damages, which was completely insane given the fact that the GDP of the entire planet was about 70, was less than 72 million. 72 trillion. So, but at this point, what I'm realizing in talking to you is that the game was changed forever because the appetite of the public was now had been changed from buying albums

to a more a la carte bespoke musical experience, buying songs one at a time and eventually being able to pick what you want streaming. And that informed all of our buying choices and all of what we were looking for from our media forever. And that's where we find ourselves today. But the question is, if the music industry isn't selling albums anymore, it's certainly not the clip they used to be, how is the music industry making money today?

Oh, they're making a ton of money on on streaming about 70 to 80% of all the revenue coming in to record labels these days comes in from streaming. The record labels get their piece of the pie right off the top long before the artist does. And the four three major record labels all own equity stakes in Spotify, believe it or not. Oh, they do. Oh, they do. Yeah. Yeah, they, you know, it depends on it's, you know, 10, 12, 17%, something like that,

but they do have a piece of the pie. And the reason they have a piece of the pie is because they don't want to find themselves in the same position they were with Steve Jobs. Yeah. Jobs came in and said, listen, I can rescue you with iTunes. And it's either me or nobody. And they had no choice but to go with Steve, and to go with iTunes, which turned Apple into the, you know, help turn Apple into the monster that it is today. So they're not going to let go of distribution, they're not going to have any sort of situation where they

don't have their their, their fingers all over how the music gets gets distributed. Oh, see, that's interesting to me because I remember having a conversation years ago about the television industry. And somebody said, someone from LA said, yes, in the face of streaming, everything is going to change. But the CBS is the NBC is the Fox is of the world. They will all still exist 20, 30 years from now, because they're all going to participate in their own cannibalization. They're going to do essentially what you just said the music industry did with Spotify, which is recognize that there is change, but they want they're going to be

part of that change. Yeah, and it took until about 2016 or 2017 before revenues stopped falling from when they did in 2000 and began to turn around when there was a critical mass of people streaming music around the world. So yeah, if they're making about a million dollars a minute the record labels. What?

From streaming. Oh yeah, they're making a ton of money. I mean, when you consider that in a given week about 2.7 billion songs are streamed in Canada, 10 times that many in the United States, and then you can extrapolate that through the rest of the world, billions upon billions of songs are getting streamed every single day. And the amount of money that generates is incredibly huge. I mean, Spotify has paid out well over a

billion dollars just in the last year for the in royalties. And of course, the record labels don't have to worry about manufacturing or producing or shipping a single CD anymore. It's all happening in digital ones and zeros. Yeah. And then the interesting thing is, if you go back and look at some of the contracts held by some heritage acts, you'll still find that there are things like breakage, and promo copies and a whole bunch of other things that are

deducted from their royalties, because they're still operating on the under the assumption that they're selling pieces of plastic. Do the record labels get a piece of the touring that the acts do? Or is that exclusive to the musicians? It depends. It depends. Some artists have something called 360 deals. And a 360 deal encompasses every form of revenue that you get. So it could be everything from ticket sales to t-shirt sales. And what are some of the headwinds on the horizon for the music industry? Because

it sounds based on what you're saying, like it's smooth sailing going forward, they own a piece of Spotify, they're making money hand over fist. But are there headwinds that they have to be worried about? Yeah, there are one of the things that the record industry has been very terrible at doing is creating new superstar acts over the last 25 years, we have a number of acts that can fill arenas and stadiums, but not nearly as many as we used to back in the day. So this is why we're seeing a lot of people, a lot of promoters go back and get those heritage

acts back on the road, charging big dollars for nostalgia purposes. Most of the money is coming, if you take Taylor Swift out of the equation, most of the money is coming from Heritage Acts when it comes to touring. The other thing is that if you look at what is being streamed, about 75% of all the music being streamed right now is by music by heritage artists. It's more than two years old. Only about 25% of all the streaming is done to current music these days. And one thing I heard and maybe you can confirm it for me, but

one of the unintended consequences of streaming is that song lengths have gotten the songs have gotten shorter. Because it allows people to listen to more of more songs over the course of say, an hour, or or what they do is they get into the song and as soon as it's over, they go, Hey, wait a second, I was just starting to get into that, so I'm gonna play it again. Alan Cross, I wanna thank you so much.

It's a fascinating piece. I remember when it looked like the music industry wasn't gonna survive, but clearly some smart people around the boardroom found a way to survive and to fight another day. And I'm so glad that you chronicled it for readers. I appreciate it. You're very welcome. That was Alan Cross, the host of the ongoing history of new music. And make sure to follow and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever

you get your streaming audio. We release new podcasts every day. Thanks for listening. This is Carry the Fire. I'm your host, Lisa LaFlamme. Carry the Fire, a podcast by the Princess Margaret Cancer Foundation featuring inspiring personal stories about what happens when world-leading doctors, nurses, researchers and their patients come together to ignite breakthroughs.

Carry the Fire launches Monday, January 27th wherever you get your podcasts.