The Ben Mulroney Show - Best of the Week Part 1 - John Bolton, Tony Chapman, Franco Terrazzano, Kris Sims

Episode Date: March 22, 2025

Best of the Week Part 1 - John Bolton, Tony Chapman, Franco Terrazzano, Kris Sims Guests: John Bolton, Tony Chapman, Franco Terrazzano, Kris Sims, Monica Kidd, Tej Parikh If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! https://globalnews.ca/national/program/the-ben-mulroney-show Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. At Desjardins, we speak business. We speak startup funding and comprehensive game plans. We've made-to-measure growth and expansion advice and we can talk your ear off about transferring your business when the time comes Because at Desjardins business, we speak the same language you do business So join the more than 400,000 Canadian entrepreneurs who already count on us and contact Desjardins today We'd love to talk business. Welcome to the Ben Mulroney Best of the Week podcast. We had so many great conversations this week, including Donald Trump's former National Security Advisor John Bolton joining me to get

inside the mind of the president. Plus, we discussed Mark Carney's carbon tax shell game and a chat about unlocking Canada's superpower potential. Enjoy. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show. Look, in any negotiation, if you are a good negotiator, you want to put yourself in the mind of the person on the other side of the table. You want to know what they want so that you can find a way for everybody to walk away from that negotiation happy. And unfortunately in Canada, we have no idea what Donald Trump wants in this tariff war. He keeps changing, moving the goalposts, he keeps saying it's one thing

and then making it about something else. And I would love just a little clarity on what makes this man tick and what his ultimate endgame is. And so in order to perhaps get us a little bit closer to that answer, I'm truly honored to be joined by somebody who worked for him as a national security advisor. And he also spent time working for three other presidents, Ambassador John Bolton. John, Ambassador, welcome to the show.

Glad to be with you, thanks for having me. Okay, so I put the question to you, sir. What does, in this tariff war, in this seemingly realignment of world trade, what is Donald Trump looking for from Canada? Well, I don't think he really knows. I don't think he fully understands the objective with Canada, Mexico, or anybody else. He has this idea that tariffs will bring back some kind of golden age going back to william mckinley uh... it shows how little history he knows or how much things have changed since william mckinley's administration uh... i know in canada there's some theories that

this is all bargaining to slice off a piece here there and uh... he says things to that effect but but i can assure you this is not a man playing three-dimensional chess this is somebody playing regular chess one move at a time, one move only at a time. I'm reminded of what Steve Bannon said during Donald Trump's first administration. He referenced their tactic of what he called flooding the zone with so many different stories that would confuse the press and they really wouldn't know what story to follow. Kevin O'Leary referred to it as differentiating between the noise and the signal.

And I think that's what we're all trying to figure out. What is the signal here? We can't get a hold on it. And now you recently were on Global News with Mercedes Stevenson where you said that Mark Carney won't improve Canada-U.S. relations by matching Trump. And I'm wondering Mr. Ambassador, is there a difference between, you know, are you talking about his tone or are you talking about the tariffs? I'm talking about tone as much as anything. I mean, it's

Trump, Trump doesn't say things with long-range objectives in mind he he sort of says whatever comes into his head on any given day and in terms of noise versus signal one one friend of mine came up with the idea that that in the trump administration the thing to do if you ever your tb said on with trump is just turn the sound off uh... and and don't don't pay attention to what's coming out of his mouth. Just focus on what's actually happening, which is not bad advice. The key to trying to get things put back to some kind of normalcy is to figure out what

to say to Trump about why doing so would be to his personal interest. Don't talk about how badly the tariffs are affecting Canada. Don't talk about how badly a trade war will affect the United States. Talk about how it will affect Donald Trump's place in history, why it will decrease his personal popularity. Go after it that way. I've suggested for poor Volodymyr Zelensky in Ukraine, for example, that he needs to tell Trump he's going to nominate him for the Nobel Peace Prize and do it quickly before somebody else does it.

There may be some kind of comparable thing that Carney can do, but that is what you have to focus on. I know how hard it is for political leaders in other countries because it's hard for political leaders in the US to understand Trump does not do policy. It's totally transactional, episodic, ad hoc, and filtered through the prism of how's this benefit me? I am speaking with Ambassador John Bolton, the former National Security Advisor to President Donald Trump in his first term. And Mr. Ambassador, a lot of us woke up today to some pretty stunning news that Donald Trump was looking to rescind the Biden pardons that he made on his last day, claiming that because

he believes they were signed with what they call an auto pen, they were not valid. And look, I don't know anything about what regulates pardons, but it feels to me like this is something he's hoping to get away with and he's just he's he's that he does can't necessarily do it, but he's daring somebody to stop him. What can you add to this conversation? No, I think I think that's probably true. Number one, the Constitution doesn't say anything about a president having to sign pardons. And in fact, the issue has come up in other contexts.

What you need is the president to make a clear manifestation of a decision. So for example, does the president have to sign a document saying documents A, B, and C are classified top secret? No. to sign a document saying documents a b and c are classified top secret no if he says i want these documents classified top secret near ten people in the room he doesn't have to sign a document consign it later to to to make the decision you know but a permanent that did to make it physical but it's a it's a it it is long as the president has made a clear decision that's binding whether he signs

it himself, whether he signs it with an auto pen, or whether the staff secretary at the White House sends it out. This is, you know, we deal in substance, not form, when it comes to presidential decisions. So really what Trump is saying is that Biden was asleep at the switch and didn't even know it happened. I can't speak to that either, but it's a way that he's obviously wants to go after the January 6th committee, the congressional committee that investigated the events of that day, and he's trying to find a way to invalidate the part. It

will fail, but it will cost people a lot of legal fees. Trump's great for the legal industry even as he's an attacking part of it. His legal fees are paid by the taxpayers of the United States who fund the Justice Department. Donald Trump has said he will talk to Vladimir Putin on Tuesday. He's pushing for an end to the Ukraine war. I don't think there's anyone who even has a slight idea of what's going on in the region, that this was going to end any other way but through a peace treaty. I don't think anybody thinks today that Ukraine was going to

walk away with victory in hand. But I think a lot of people are surprised that in the process of trying to bring these sides together, Donald Trump does seem to prefer Vladimir Putin over prefer Vladimir Putin over Zelensky and Ukraine and I'm wondering if you think that signals a significant shift in American policy and worldview? Well I think Trump has flipped the US position 180 degrees from being supportive of Ukraine to being supportive of Russia and it's one of many disturbing changes that he's made. I don't think the American people, a majority of them or anywhere close to it, agree with Trump on this. He didn't campaign to sell out Ukraine to Russia or to destroy NATO in the process.

And I know this is a very frustrating time, but frustrating for a lot of Americans, too, to see Trump make these decisions. And I don't think foreign governments or foreign citizens should take what Trump is doing as representative of where the rest of the United States is. He's going to cause a lot of damage. The more damage that he causes, the harder it will be to put institutions like NATO back together. But writing off the United States simply on the basis of Trump's behavior, notwithstanding

he's president, that's pretty obvious, but writing off the United States permanently ends up hurting the West as a whole. Lastly, Mr. Ambassador, Donald Trump to me, doesn't strike me as somebody who evolves. I think he is who he is and he's not a very curious man, so he doesn't learn. But in this short time that we've been experiencing, this second term, what do you think is the biggest difference between Trump's first administration and this one? Well, I don't think he ever really thought he'd win in twenty sixteen he didn't prepare for the white house the transition was a disaster

the first six months uh... people were coming and going no nobody who knew new really knew what to do to run a government this time he's been still in for four years at mar-a-lago uh... the staff who were loyal to him even after january the sixth stuck with him they spent four years figuring out what they wanted to do and that's why the first two months look like shock and awe whether they can keep it up uh... is very different this is the period when we'll see uh... whether the constitution as stands up i think it will

uh... but but there's no doubt there's going to be damage caused in the process of proving that point. Ambassador John Bolton, I can't thank you enough for taking time out of your day to speak with us here on the Ben Mulroney Show. Hope to do it again soon. Well, thanks for having me. Well, listen, on this particular show, I love this next conversation. I speak with this man every week and we talk about all sorts of branding issues and

we take a lot of important topics and look at them from a different angle. And I love how he makes me think. So please welcome to the show Tony Chapman, host of the award-winning podcast, Chatter That Matters, as well as the founder of Chatter AI. Tony, welcome back. Always a pleasure, Ben. And right back at you in terms of how you make me think. Well, listen, Mark Carney has decided that for his first foray onto the international stage, rather than go down to Washington, which would have been my preference, he's gone to the UK and France, as he says, to build quote, reliable trade and security partnerships. Listen, if that's what he wants to do, that's what he's going to do. And but I've got to wonder if there's more at play than

just diplomacy. Tell me your thoughts. Well, I mean, listen, I think the liberal playbook, which is they've used successfully for years, is that when election comes, number one, we gotta get voters to forget the past, ignore their present, and focus on the future. And they do that incredibly well. It's like everything that happened in the past,

and they do it by positioning the conservatives as evil, and they're the good, they're the safe haven. What Carney's doing right now, I think, is a brilliant move on his part. I'm not sure Trump is going to entertain an audience with him. He goes to Europe. I promise you he'll come back with something. It might not be worth the paper it's written on,

but he'll come back with some kind of deal that says I'm a global States person. We no longer have to rely on, on America. Oh yeah. It's very, it's very low risk with the potential for high reward. Yeah. And the second thing he's going to do is I think

he's going to use his deep context within China and he's going to get them to eliminate the tariff on a canola oil. And by doing that, he's going to say to Canada, listen, you go with Polavay all your eggs are in one basket called Trump and you know how those eggs are cracking or you go with me and I'm going to open up the world to you. There's just something, it is brilliant but it's also in my opinion deeply cynical because he got elected he got appointed and he said I came into this race because this

existential threat known as Donald Trump and his tariffs are staring Canada in the face and I'm the only guy who can deal with him. And so to leave that till after the election to me is deeply cynical and very disappointing. Yeah. I don't think he can deal with Trump because again, I'm not sure Donald Trump's going to

entertain a liberal party. So he's got to go around Trump and say, listen, Trump is one thing, but if I can build Canada's relationships around the world and to an average voter, they're going to go, oh my God, you're going to open up the European market. They're not going to think about the 10 years it's going to take supply chain, how interconnected we are with the United States. So I, you know, he, what he's doing is he's playing to the sense of, uh, this novel is fable that a magic one can change

everything. And really it's going to come down to if he does call an election, and I would suggest he will sooner than people think because the longer he's in power, the more people are going to feel this great sense of uncertainty and insecurity. He is going to position himself, his global elite, global statemanship. It's his only way to turn it to an advantage. Yeah. He's got his whole band is Trudeau's band. Yeah. Yeah. You're right. Well, he chose all the truth. Where else can he choose from? Those are the people in parliament. Yeah. So it's got to be, it's got to be Carney is the one that's going to save the, all the eggs are in it. Now I'll tell you something. This is why we're starting to see the conservatives dig up everything they can on Carney in terms of his

actual track record in England versus the way it's being spun in Canada because they have to let voters know that, listen, you can't turn this country around with one individual who happens to have some relationships in Europe. You need a deal with the United States and we need a deal because listen, when they sneeze, we catch pneumonia. Hey, Tony Chapman, Hudson's Bay, 9,000 jobs, the most storied brand in the history of Canada, is liquidating its entire business if no financing can be secured. I gotta ask, what happens to malls across this country that for generations have relied on Hudson's Bay as an anchor tenant? Because you and I talk about it all the time.

Crises like these can be turned into opportunity if you're willing to really think outside the box. Yeah, and that's exactly what you have to do. You have to reinvent shopping centers as a place to be versus simply a place to buy. What I might be that is very experience driven. We saw West Mall do that years ago in Edmonton, putting a roller coaster in the middle.

But how can we create this 10 minute city using the shopping center as the hub, build condos around it, and within the shopping center you've got healthcare, you've got fitness, you've got great restaurants, you've got experiences, you've got daycare. Grocery stores, libraries. I mean, you could do all sorts of things. Schools. Schools. Put a school in there and create this whole sense I don't have to commute, it's all here.

And that is the future of shopping centers because the day that, I don't have to commute, it's all here. And that is the future of shopping centers because the day that, I'll tell you where the shopping center is now, it's in the palm of my hand, it's called Amazon. I don't need to leave my lazy boy and fight the Toronto traffic or any traffic act no matter to get to a store. So shopping centers have to think about within 10 minutes, people are still social creatures, but give me a place to be versus a place to buy. And I promise you that's going to be the future shopping centers. Hey, Tony, what do you make of Tesla being one of the worst performing stocks since Donald Trump entered office?

Well, I think this is this, you know, half of America didn't vote for Donald Trump. And you're seeing this sentiment expressed against Elon Musk, because that's where they can put some pain. that's where they can put some pain. That's where they can put some pressure. And so they're doing everything they can to discredit the company and turn their Teslas in. In fact, it used to be that you were considered somebody if you happen to have a Tesla. Now your question in terms of your values and integrity by having one. So it's very tough. And I feel sorry for Musk because he took this on as a public service, whether you like what he's done or not.

He did it because he feels this is better for America. And the blowback is costing him and his business and all the people who work at Tesla. A very precarious adventure lies ahead for them. Let's talk about Unilever. They've decided to invest half of their budget on an influencer-first strategy. Now first, a lot of people have heard of Unilever. Maybe you could let us know a little bit more about that company and the brands that they've got. But it also feels to me like this is

just the new iteration of sort of a celebrity endorsement. It is. I mean Dove is a great example of a Unilever brand. Conor is a great example, Sunsilk, Axe. So they're really into the food business and that sort of the, I'd say the vanity healthcare business, you know, great shampoos and such. What they realize is that consumers aren't, they've moved from mass media to their media. They're within their own castles. And the only people they're inviting in is what they consider influencers, people they like, people they enjoy, people that they feel have got commentary.

So what Unilever is trying to do is instead of hijacking onto Seinfeld on a Thursday night and putting my commercial there, hoping you'd pay attention, they're now going to influencers and say, Hey, you tell people why you love Dove and we'll pay you for it. And that to me is the new, sadly, the new path to consumers because it's done through individuals versus the kind of media that at one day used to be able to invest in investigative journalism.

So influencers are not holding our politicians feet to the fire. It's the journalists that are. But Tony, it does feel to me that yes, the influencer culture is here, it's not going anywhere, but it still feels to me like a higher risk strategy because I hear almost every week, I hear a story of an influencer who runs a foul

of either social norms or is unethical or who speaks out both sides of their mouth. Or like to me, it's really, again, back to a sort of expression I used earlier, possibly high reward, but higher risk than other strategies. Absolutely. You never know what's going to happen to the influencer and where they're going to end up one day. But listen, I'll give you an example of where it works. I hire you to do a talk at a conference. You've got your influencer out, you've got a following, you talk about it,

and I want to hear your views on being why you believe in conservative values. If I had a commercial about conservative values, you'd dismiss it. Oh, that's more Polo. They just talking about, you know, axing the tax. But suddenly someone I respect is out there contributing to the conversation. That's when influencer marketing works well, because you have influence where it doesn't work well. As I suddenly staple my brand to a Taylor's forehead, she gets paid a gazillion dollars and I hope because I'm going to bask in her glory.

Or Jared from Subway. Yeah, Jared from Subway is a great example. You're always taking a risk with it. You're much easier when you control your own media versus surrender it. But today I'm locked into a castle, my media, I'm creating my own content, I'm not listening to mass media. Therefore, the only people coming into my castle are influencers and people within my social network. I'm a brand, I got to use them as my Trojan horse, whether you like it or not. Tony Chapman, we're going to leave it there, but I hope you have a great St. Patrick's Day.

You as well, my friend. Hi, I'm Donna Friesen from Global National. Life moves fast these days and we want to make it even easier for you to get the news you need. That's why you can now get Global National every day as a podcast. The biggest stories of the day with analysis from award-winning global news journalists. New episodes drop every day. So take this as your personal invitation to join us on the global national podcast. You can find it on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, and wherever you find your favorite podcasts.

Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney Show. Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to spend some time with the show. And whether or not you're listening to us on radio or on a streaming app, or as a podcast. We really do appreciate you joining us and becoming part of this growing community. So I was pretty busy on Twitter this weekend, taking issue with the liberal government canceling their canceling in air quotes, their own tax and taking credit for it as if as if this is something that they shouldn't be ashamed of. And I got a lot of people pushing back saying,

stay in your lane, go ask people on a red carpet what they're wearing on. And a lot of ad hominem attacks, meaning they did not actually attack my, what I was saying, but rather who I am, which means they lost the argument, at least as far as I'm concerned. So in an effort to push back on that, let's talk to two people who actually spend

their entire lives focused on issues like this. Two good friends of the Ben Mulroney Show, at least as far as I'm concerned. So in an effort to push back on that, let's talk to two people who actually spend their entire lives focused on issues like this. Two good friends of the Ben Mulroney show from the Canadian Taxpayers Federation. We've got Franco Tarrazano, the Federal Director, and Chris Sims, the Alberta Director. To both of you, I say happy Monday and happy St. Patrick's Day.

Thanks, Ben. Thanks for having us on the show. Chris, let's start with you. And let me just put on my devil's advocate hat and say like, what are we complaining about? Are we? They did something that more or less that a lot of us have been asking them to do for a really long time.

So what's wrong with that? Well, two things here, Ben. One, it is a big win for canadians because normal everyday working canadian made mark carney the future wrote a five hundred and seven page book pre-dating carbon taxes the former u n special envoy on that very topic we made him

cap the map k he tapped out he said i'm gonna have to get rid of carbon taxes or make it look like I'm doing that in order to get some votes. So that is just a huge achievement. Okay. So that is a win for Canadian for us to say, you know what, this carbon tax is radioactive, man. So you're going to have to get rid of it. So they made him at least look like he's doing that. But of course, to your point all weekend, I was watching what you were saying, devils in the details here. It's just reduced to zero,

and he's going to hide the cost of the carbon tax. Yeah, explain. So it's not really gone. Yeah, Franco, maybe you can pick up on that. What does that mean? I heard Pierre Polia referencing that he was going to hide the price of the carbon tax. But look, we know it was visible for all of us to see

that it was dropped down to zero. So how does he then move to shroud the carbon tax and its cost into secrecy? Yeah, and Ben, let me just say one thing. They deserve 0% credit for this, right? Up until six minutes ago, they were captain carbon tax. They were telling you, if you care about the planet, then sit down, be quiet and pay your carbon tax bills. Okay. But there's two reasons pay your carbon tax bills. Okay?

But there's two reasons why the carbon tax fight isn't over. Number one, the carbon tax rate will be reduced to zero. Okay. But guess what? The carbon tax law is still on the books. So we're all expecting an election right around the corner. And that means that when the House of Commons comes back, they can still crank up the carbon tax to their harsh desires because the law is still on the books. And that means that when the House of Commons comes back, they can still crank up the carbon tax

to their harsh desires because the law is still on the books. But number two, and probably the most important point here, is that Mr. Carney, he's not ending all carbon taxes. He wants to hammer Canadian businesses with huge hidden carbon taxes. And then he hopes you won't notice when those costs are passed on to you through higher

prices. Yeah. Right? A carbon tax is a carbon tax is a carbon tax. Canadians don't want the carbon tax kind of gone. Canadians don't want the carbon tax relabeled. We want it completely scrapped. Yeah.

And Chris, you know, so I saw the tweet that they were very proud of that the cost of a liter of gas was going to go down by 17.1 cents on April 1, which tells me I've been paying 17.1 cents per liter that I shouldn't have been paying for years. But but so that's that's on the consumer facing tax, which is now down to zero. But if they're going to increase the tax on large emitters, surely that includes the oil and gas sector, which ultimately would then pass that on to me the consumer Bingo-Bango, so as he's going to put the carbon tax on to say a fuel refinery That of course will make things like gasoline and diesel cost more that fuel refinery is not going to eat The cost of that carbon tax so yeah

We're still going to be standing there fueling up our vehicles, paying that at the pump. Same thing goes for utilities companies. If you're paying for your natural gas for your home heating, you're still going to be paying the carbon tax. The problem here for us as consumers is it's going to be more hidden. Because keep in mind, that's what was annoying people like Mark Carney, is that we could often see the cost of carbon tax and that made us get upset about it. That is why people like mark carney is that we could often see the cost carbon tax and that made us get upset about it that is why people like christopher eiland said language like consumer facing carbon town they didn't see the carbon tax is a problem it was the fact that we could see it also keep in mind like you said

he's going to crank up the industrial carbon tax so that's the attack that's the tax and all those businesses but keep in mind that we've got somebody called US President Donald Trump, who's ringing the dinner bell for industry down in the United States. Why would a steel manufacturer or a fertilizer plant in Ontario or Saskatchewan or Calgary decide to stay up here with industrial carbon taxes when they can just move stateside and pay no carbon tax. Franco Tarrazano, let's move to the second volley of gaslighting that I identified over the weekend, and that was with our new finance minister, Champagne, who was speaking with Vashi Kapilos of CTV, where he essentially said that we are now in an era of fiscal responsibility, I'm a fiscal hawk,

we are going to look at reducing the footprint of spending. We are differentiating between investments and spending. This all, honestly, as a centrist Canadian, had the liberals said this 10 years ago, I would have said, oh, there's a palatable centrist alternative to the conservatives. Unfortunately, I just don't buy it. Yeah, no wonder.

I mean, you have every reason to have trust issues. Okay, like they're trying like they're trying to pretend like they weren't the government that doubled the national debt in less than a decade. Right. And they also want to split the books. They want to pretend like they're going to be balanced in the budget. Well, I got news for you. Okay. If debt is still going up, it means interest charges are wasting too much money and you're not being fiscally responsible. Right? They haven't identified a single place to cut spending. And you know what? After a decade of this runaway crazy spending train, finding savings in every area of the budget should be like finding water in the ocean. Okay?

Like come on, you guys just added 108,000 extra bureaucrats in less than a decade. They spent 8 million bucks building a barn at Rideau Hall. Not to mention the new finance minister is the same minister who put taxpayers on the hook for tens of billions of dollars in corporate welfare to multinational corporations. So you know what I say? I'll believe it when I see it. Chris Sims, when our prime minister was in Europe today, he tweeted about his conversation with President Macron of France. And he used that expression that a lot of us hear but don't necessarily

understand. But it does get us feeling a sort of way. He renewed his commitment to net zero. Now, when you hear net zero, what does that mean to you? And what does that say about a future Carney government? That means a carbon tax and a production cap here, especially in the province of Alberta. As we saw the parliamentary budget officer come out

with recently, he said that that production slash emissions cap that's being imposed by Ottawa is going to blow a $20 billion hole in the Canadian economy, and it's going to cost us about 40,000 jobs. So as an Albertan and as a representative at the CTF, that's what that says to me. Franco, what about you? Well, yeah, I think it means life's going

to be more expensive and it's going to be harder to create investment and jobs in Canada. And let me just go back to the elephant in the room, right? This terrafore that is hanging over our heads. Like Mr. Trump wants more businesses to set up shop in the United States. And these governments, our government's energy regulations, energy taxes, carbon taxes are going to help Trump do just that, right? Washington, like the vast majority of countries, do not hammer their citizens with carbon taxes. And there is no way that Ottawa should be hammering Canadians with carbon taxes, whether it's consumer facing or hidden carbon taxes on business. And let me just give a shout out here, some kudos, because earlier today, the Conservative

Party leader, Pierre Poliev, he said he would end the carbon tax law and also end the industrial carbon tax. And he is the first federal party leader to commit to ending all carbon taxes. And I think that's a great commitment. Chris Sims, the Alberta director of the Canadian Taxpayers Federation and Franco Tarrazano, her federal analog to both of you.

I say thank you very much. Always a fun chat. Thanks, Ben. Thank you. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show, to both of you I say thank you very much always a fun chat. Thanks Ben. Thank you. Welcome back to the Ben Mulrooney Show, the Canadian healthcare system. It is, it has been and it remains to a large extent a point not just of national pride, but a key aspect for a lot of people about our national identity. How we care for each other matters and we value it so much that we actually look at this institution as part of who we are.

It's really quite a unique aspect of being Canadian. But increasingly, there are more and more people who need to avail themselves for whatever reasons of private alternatives. And to discuss the implications of that, I'm joined by the implications of that, I'm joined by the author of a terrific piece in the Walrus, Monica Kidd, who's a journalist, but as well,

a family physician in Calgary. Monica, welcome to the show. Hi, Ben. Thanks. It's my pleasure. Yeah, so this, look, I like to take the world as it is, not as I want it to be. I want to live in a world where when, you know, we love to say Canada's healthcare system is, you know, the high watermark. It just isn't. And so there are a lot of people who feel, well, why should I have to suffer because the system can't get its act together,

and they find ways to cut the queue, use private health care. It seems like that's sort of what people are forced to do these days. It's true, there's a lot of people waiting for a long time for surgery. And, you know, if, if we all had to wait, then I think people would just adapt to that. But we know that there are other options, we can go across the border. And if there's money in the bank, we can avail of other opportunities. And so those pressures tend to bleed over into to a public system like ours for sure. Yeah. Now, the article, you do a terrific job chronicling, you know, the difficult road that Melanie Schmidt had to hoe.

Why don't you tell us a little bit about Melanie? Yeah. Yeah. Melanie, I think was a she was really candid with me and she's a great example of someone who, like you were saying, actually really believes in the public system in Canada and her taxes. You know, she says to me, my taxes have paid for it,

I wanna protect it. But when I'm waiting for a year and a half or longer for new joints and it's affecting my quality of life i can't be active i'm in pain all the time. And i wanted she's used to being on the go you know so she said well. I have some money in the bank it's gonna be tight but i it's a priority for me. priority for me. So she started looking for options internationally in the States and Mexico. And then she found her way to an option in Quebec, which was going to be way cheaper than the States. And more expensive than other countries, but she liked the idea of staying in Canada. So she went to Quebec and she had both of her knees done. And she was back home in Calgary in a matter of days.

And now she's working on her rehab. And she doesn't regret that decision. That's what made sense for her. Of course, I mean, there's actually a quote in the article that says, if I only have 15 years left on this planet, why should I have to wait three years to be without pain? And there's a real logic behind that,

but Melanie, I'm gonna say something, it's probably a hot take, but I'd love your comment on it. So, because a lot of people like Melanie will get pushback from people saying, you're the reason, you're the problem, you're taking money out of the system, you're cutting the queue.

To that, I would say, and this is what I want your reaction on, any one person's decision to avail themselves of a private option, it can do far less damage than what the system has done to itself, because never before have we put more money into a system that is providing such poor outcomes. So what do you say to that?

Hmm. Yeah, I think it's really, it's really hard to, we all have public decisions, we help, we all have individual decisions and then we have collective decisions to make as a group and we know what the collective decisions should be. And then we say, well, then I should, I, you know, I should, I don't know, I think about this in terms of climate change. We need to make a whole bunch of changes at the international level. And I need to make changes in my own life.

And that goes for public healthcare access as well. Um, I think it's just a really hard argument for, to ask individuals to sacrifice their own personal wellbeing for, for something that feels abstract because pain is immediate. their own personal wellbeing for something that feels abstract because pain is... Immediate. It trumps everything. It trumps everything.

It's a lot to put somebody to put their own personal pain aside for a greater good. Take one for the team. That's right. That's right. So I don't fault individuals in any way. I also see the other side of it as someone who works in the public system. Well, you know what? That segues perfectly into what I was gonna ask you next.

May I ask how long you've been a physician? I, since 2011. Okay, so I have to assume that in the past 14 years, the system that you entered 14 years ago is not the system that you're working in today. No, for sure. Like when I first started, and I've worked in different provinces too with different amounts of resources. I started practicing in Newfoundland, which has its own set of challenges compared to Alberta, for sure. But it used to be, I mean, even when I started 14 years ago,

people assumed that they would have a family doctor probably for life. And I don't think people make that assumption anymore. Now, when I see patients, I actually ask them, you know, if I'm seeing them for a reason that's not family medicine, doing obstetrics, for example, I've stopped asking who's your family doctor, and instead I'll say, do you have a family doctor?

Sure, yeah. Now as a family doctor, if there's one thing that I have heard from people who are focused on trying to solve the problem of family doctors, is that people in your specialty deal with burnout at a very high rate. I think everybody in healthcare is facing burnout. I think nurses are facing burnout. I think nurses are facing burnout.

I think physicians are facing burnout. There's so much need. Yeah. And everybody feels personally, everyone wants to do their best. But Monica, how much of it is attributable to, and this again is based on what I've heard from others, the sort of the top-down bureaucratic responsibilities

that seem to be endemic and that are causing doctors like yourself, instead of being able to practice all day long, you're filling out paperwork. Yeah, there's a lot of that for sure. And there's a lot of, you know, I hate that word, but siloing in medicine. So I send somebody to a cardiologist and then I have to,

they send it back because they want something other paperwork filled out because they want to make their job easy too. I don't fault them for that, but what it does is it means people's referrals circle and circle and there's a lot of paperwork and everyone is resentful. Everyone just wants to see patients. Everyone just wants to fix people and to help them. And yet we have these 23 page long disability insurance things to fill out for people. And it's not their fault, but somebody needs to do it. And I guess that's my question, Monica, that to me is the issue. You're filling out forms today that you didn't have to fill out 10 years ago. But what has changed in terms of the dynamic of delivering

health care that those forms all of a sudden today are essential, that they didn't even exist 11 years ago? I know, well, a lot of them did, but I think that, I think that COVID changed a lot. I think that there are a lot more, what's the word I'm looking for? People need allowances to work from home or to have certain, you know, to have other kinds of arrangements. Yeah, yeah, that sort of thing. And I don't fault any individual for wanting that. I would want it too if I needed it. But the fact that doctors need to fill out things that half the time, I'm just asking

the patient what they think the answer should be. Like I'm expected to know the answer to, you know, how long a person should be able to stand before they need to sit down. I mean, I don't know that information and yet somebody needs the answer. And often it just falls to doctors to somehow magically know the answers. It's like the I've noticed that the bigger the company or the bigger the bureaucracy that exists, the more people exist in that organization whose job it is to slow things down. And if they and they and if things slow down, they have justified why they actually

have a job. And and so you're telling me you need to all of a sudden it's vital for you to know how long someone can stand before they need to sit. That was not information that was needed for you to do your job or wasn't germane to the responsibilities 10, 15 years ago. But somebody identified that as something that could slow things down. And that to me is the madness here,

that if we could have an honest look at healthcare, not through rose-colored glasses, we all want healthcare to be the best version of itself. But if we're not willing to have those hard looks and honest looks at what exactly is ailing the system, it's never going to improve. It's true. And there's a little bit of that that is being done,

like doctor's notes, like sick notes. Yeah. Organizations used to require you, if you missed one or two days of work, to go to the doctor and ask for a note that said yes. Monica, I'm sorry, I gotta run. I'm sorry, but thank you so much. The article is called needed a knee replacement. You can get it at the mall

on walrus.ca. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show. Thank you so much for joining us. And if you've ever heard me talk about Canada and where we want to go as a nation, you might have heard me say that one of the biggest roadblocks to Canadian success is Canada. We get in our own way. We put up roadblocks that other countries don't. We fight amongst ourselves in a way that doesn't allow us to row in the same direction. And if you know anything about Canadians, we sure do love it when people from outside the country take note of us and comment on us. And so there's an article in the Financial Times

out of the UK that has been going viral because they took note. Tej Peric is the author, he's an economist and writer for the Financial Times. And the title was so eye catching for so many Canadians that they shared it over and over and over again, Unlocking Canada's Superpower Potential. I mean, if that doesn't get you excited, nothing will. And so to talk about it, we're joined by the author himself,

Tej, welcome to the Ben Mulroney Show. Hi there. So what you've written in this article, I believe a lot of Canadians have either said or believe, but for it to be seen from somebody who's not in the country is quite telling. When you look at Canada today and you talk about our potential for the future, what do we have to do to get from where we are to where we want to go? Well, I mean, Canada has a large amount of natural resources and luckily, natural resources that the rest of the world needs. And what I'm talking here primarily about is the demand for raw materials that feed into the renewable technologies industry. And we know that Canada has a large number of these critical mineral deposits across the country.

And then at the same time, Canada's geography has always been hugely advantageous in terms of being able to trade both with Asia out west and then to the east having access to Europe. And then, I mean, obviously, if there is a friendlier US administration in the future, you've got access to the world's largest consumer market to yourself. Now, what Canada, I think, needs to do is to really try and capitalize on this. And it hasn't is to really try and capitalize on this. And it hasn't so far. And I think the main thing that needs to do is invest heavily in its infrastructure.

Also remove its internal trade barriers because this prevents companies and industries from taking advantage of that resource and for Canada act of this this unified market and that will boost efficiency and it will also attract foreign direct investment into the country. Yes, which we've been sorely lacking for the past decade. Tej, a lot of people when they hear this, there's a certain type of Canadian that will balk. They will say Canada can't just strip mine, we can't just strip mine the country. We can't just

We can't just strip mine the country. We can't just dig and drill and ruin the environment. That is not who we are. But there is a way to extract natural resources ethically and in an environmentally conscious way. And that's, in my opinion, the means to the end. It's not the end to itself. The means is extracting and turning that into resources that we can then use to build out other vital industries that would then allow us to become that superpower that

you describe. Yeah, I mean, that's precisely the point. Every country has some comparative advantage and there's an opportunity to leverage that. That doesn't mean that Canada purely becomes an export of raw materials, but once you start getting investment, other companies developing around supply chains for raw materials, you then start catalyzing wider economic growth. So you get a whole industrial supply chain that develops. I wouldn't advise kind of to just to solely rely on exporting more materials because that's not the best way to develop a growing economy but once you start opening those things up to you know ethical extraction you then

do get that foreign direct investment that comes in, you draw in talent and then that becomes a catalyst for things like the finance industry, research and development, higher end production, and refining these products. It's just a case of opening the door. Yeah, but we have to start. I think that's the thing. It was so frustrating being in Canada. It's the act of actually taking that leap of faith and saying, we can become this, we just have to start down that road. And far too often, this is a country of half measures,

of grand pronouncements that don't go anywhere. I mean, I remember a few years ago, how Canada what want to be the tip of the sword, for example, in open banking. And we were some of the first to sign on to the open banking agreements and then did nothing to get there. Meanwhile, countries like Australia lapped us. And my fear is we're going to do the same thing with AI.

We're going to be the grand pronouncements, but we're going to get in our own way. We won't be able to to build the data centers required for Canada to become, for example, an AI leader. And the world's going to pass us by. leader and the world's going to pass us by. Yeah, I mean, there's the thing is, you know, once you start taking advantage of your innate natural advantage, do you then get a lot more people attracted to the country wanting to come in? I mean, Canada is of interest to a lot of international graduates. And once you start building a brand around the country that says, look, we're open to business,

we've also got raw materials that the rest of the world needs not. And you know, this isn't dirty minerals. This is raw materials required for the renewable, the green transition around the world. So Canada will be playing a role in supporting the green transition around the world. Then you can kind of see

talent, finance, research and development, all of that building up. So I think it's about taking those first steps. It's not just about removing internal trade barriers. There's also things around simplifying the tax system and simplifying the planning processes involved in building things. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And I think the way I ended this piece was it's really about whether Canada wants this. Exactly. And I think for the first time in decades, the country has, really feels like a political moment and everyone seems to be on the same page.

And I think that's something to capitalize on. I'm speaking with Tej Perik. He's the author and economist of the article that a lot of people are giving a look at, unlocking Canada's superpower potential. Tej, let's say that your column is a roadmap and the powers that be, whether it be this government under Mark Carney or another one moving forward,

decide, yes, we're gonna follow this as a roadmap. Given your experience as an economist, how long would it take for Canada to start becoming that superpower? I mean, we can we've seen the power of how narrative shift in economies can lead to growth very quickly or inflows of money. I mean, just look at what's happening in Europe at the moment, particularly Germany. We've seen how the narrative has changed in China the minute we saw its AI development. So I think with Canada, it's a case of saying, you know, look, we've got this long-term vision and leadership.

This is the roadmap we're going to take. And I think you will start immediately seeing returns because you will start seeing businesses coming in and being interested in the country. But I mean, look, the reality is, is that Canada is very dependent on the US economy. We can't skirt that issue. So this would be a decade long process. But the thing is, it's about starting on that journey. And it's about starting on that journey. And I would remind those who would position themselves as roadblocks to that growth that if in fact you believe that Canada is a compassionate democracy that tries its best to help and

support the weakest in our society, if you want a social safety net that takes care of even the weakest among us, then the only way to do that is to have services that pay for those social services. And we can do that if we live up to the potential that you describe. Yeah. And I mean, look, extracting the resources of Canada can be, you know, a boost to the to the Commonwealth of Canada. You know, you can you can this money gets, you know, goes back into tax revenues that goes back into public services that Canada solely needs to develop. But also like governments around the world that have been resource rich, you can also, you know, push this into sovereign wealth funds. Yes. Canada has a strong, strong experience with good portfolio

managers, particularly in the pension industry. Tej, unfortunately, we're going to have to leave it there. But thank you so much for joining us. I love the vision that you've painted of the future. Appreciate it. Thank you. Thanks for listening to the Ben Mulroney Show podcast. We're live every day nationwide on the Chorus Radio Network, and you can listen online through the Radio Canada player and the iHeart Radio Canada apps. And make sure to follow and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your streaming audio.

We release new podcasts every day. Thanks for listening. There's no limit to how far criminals will go to cover their tracks, but investigators will go even further to uncover the truth. I'm Nancy Hicks, a senior crime reporter for Global News. This season on Crime Beat, I'll take you from the crime scene to the courtroom, and inside some of Canada's most high-profile cases, and some you've likely never heard of before.

Search for and listen to Crime Beat on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, and wherever you find your favorite podcasts.