The Ben Mulroney Show - Best of the Week Part 2 - Danielle Smith, Dimitris Soudas, Warren Kinsella

Episode Date: May 3, 2025

Best of the Week Part 2 - Danielle Smith, Dimitris Soudas, Warren Kinsella Guests: Danielle Smith, Dimitris Soudas, Regan Watts, Sharan Kaur, Warren Kinsella, Max Fawcett, Chris Chapin, Tom Parkin, Brad Lavigne If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! https://globalnews.ca/national/program/the-ben-mulroney-show Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

When I found out my friend got a great deal on a designer dress from Winners, I started wondering, is every fabulous item I see from Winners, like that woman over there with the Italian leather handbag, is that from Winners? Ooh, or that beautiful silk skirt. Did she pay full price? Or those suede sneakers? Or that luggage? Or that trench? Those jeans? That jacket? Those heels. Is anyone paying full price for anything? Stop wondering, start winning. Winners find fabulous for less. Welcome to the Ben Mulroney show best of the week podcast. We had

so many great convos this week, including the single best coverage post election anywhere in the country. We had insights from the best political insiders and a conversation with the premier of Alberta. Enjoy. So during election campaign you pick up your swords you go into battle you pick your side and you try to get your side to win. The election's over so I am of the ilk that you put down your swords you roll up your sleeves and you get to work with whoever won. You criticize when you feel the need but the goal is to build a bigger and better Canada. After the

election of Mark Carney where the Liberals were given a fourth consecutive government, a third consecutive minority, the Premier of Alberta, Danielle Smith, wrote on Twitter, I congratulate Prime Minister Mark Carney on his minority government election victory last night. I want to sincerely thank Pierre Poliev for his powerful and principled advocacy against the last decade of punitive taxation and anti-resource policies that have made our country weaker, more divided, and overly dependent on the United States. It goes on quite long, so rather than read it all, I'd like to welcome to the show again, Danielle Smith, the Premier of Alberta.

Premier, welcome to the show. Hey, Ben. Nice to talk to you. Okay, so are you of like mind with me? Is it time to roll up our sleeves and get to work with this new government? Well, I've always been of that view. When I first got elected, my very first conversation with Justin Trudeau, Mark Carney's predecessor,

was to talk about how we could align our interests around developing resources and meeting emissions targets in a reasonable period of time. That was my very first conversation. And then I watched for two and a half years while they did everything but. And so this part of the reason why when I got in, when the election was called, I had nine things that I believe that the federal government needs to do if they want to reset the relationship with Alberta. And I put it on the table for whoever was going to be prime minister today. And I put it on the table for whoever was going to be prime minister today and I'm looking forward to talking with the prime minister

and seeing if he's willing to address some of those. Anthony Kosh, another friend of the show said that if these numbers stay as they are, and the liberals do in fact win 168 seats and the NDP keep their seven, they have a de facto majority. And I've got a wonder do you think that makes an East West pipeline anytime soon realistic? Well I hope that the Prime Minister doesn't misread the results of this election. The results of this election were 312 seats got won by parties that wanted to build pipelines, turn us into an energy superpower and clear away some

of the regulatory mess and taxes and punitive regulations that have landlocked our resources. 312, the fringe parties, all of them lost ground. The bloc lost ground, the NDs lost massive ground, and the Greens lost ground. That was a total rejection of the keep it in the ground policies, the carbon taxes, the excessive emissions taxes, everything that they felt they needed to do to maintain their coalition last time around. I hope that the Prime Minister realizes that it was his more moderate tone, his more conciliatory tone of wanting to actually build things that resulted in a higher vote share for him as well as for for Pierre Poliub who's been advocating that

for the last two and a half years. So I hope he doesn't misread the result of this because that is what is going to end up creating tension in the relationship with the provinces. Premier Smith, do you have a call lined up with Mark Carney at this point? I do not. I have a press conference today so I'm sure I'll be asked a lot of questions about it. But I put out in my congratulations statement that I'm looking forward to meeting with him to talking about these areas of mutual interest. And keep in mind that they are specific tangible things that he needs to do.

You have to be able to build and permit new pipelines in a reasonable period of time, not frustrate a process by taking 10 years and billions of dollars. That's the reason we haven't had pipelines built in this country. You have to end the tanker ban off the West Coast. You can't say that you are seriously interested in finding new markets when our best opportunity for new markets is in Asia and you've created an arbitrary restriction on getting your product to the coast. He has to make sure that he abandons the aggressive by 2030 net zero targets on everything from cars to houses to electrical power grids. We need a time horizon that allows for us to achieve emissions reductions with technology, with innovation, rather than a timeline that

is unrealistic and unachievable that will essentially only be achieved if we keep resources in the ground. So that's what I'm looking for is I'm looking for some action to match the words that I heard during the campaign. And I hope we see that. But I'll as soon as I have an opportunity to chat with him, I'll certainly know more. How do you think the people of Alberta, the voters of Alberta are feeling today? I don't think we saw too too much of a

surprise in terms of how people in Alberta voted. but that is not reflected yet again in the government that is being sent to Ottawa. So there is a disconnect between the will of the people of Alberta and more generally the will of Canada. Well imagine how people might feel if you know they've had 10 years of being demonized, beat up, punched down, and had their economic opportunity taken away from them and see the same party that did all that to them get re-elected with a higher number of seats. You can imagine how Albertans are feeling today, frustrated, disappointed.

I think in our fellow Canadians that the vision of Pierre Poliev was not the one that had a massive endorsement last night. I think that we have a hope that we're going to see some change of direction, but let's face it, it's all the same players at the table and they've changed leaders. Leaders can chart a new course, but I'll be very interested to see

who does he put in energy? Who does he put in environment? What kind of signals is he going to send about whether or not he got the true message of this campaign or whether we're going to see same old, same old? Frustration when it's properly focused and properly organized and managed can turn into something much more. There was discussion prior to the election of the unhappiness in Alberta possibly crystallizing

into more than the protest that we've heard of nationalism turning into a separatist movement. If you don't get those those nine things that you need from this government, could that rebuke be turned into a movement that would be undeniable? Well, I can read the polls along with anyone else. Angus Reid did poll for the sentiment about sovereignty across the country. It's actually highest, separatist sentiment is highest in Saskatchewan, and it's about tied in Quebec and Alberta at about 30%. So that's a very high number.

That's a number that should be concerning. And so I'm going to do everything I can to make Eastern Canada and Mark Carney understand that we have to address these issues. These are very practical issues about why it is that Albertans are feeling angry and alienated. But it's also very easy to solve them by finding some common ground. And so I want to see if there's a spirit of goodwill on that. But if there isn't, we'll know pretty soon. I guess that's that's where the conversation is ultimately going to go. And the question either gets answered today or, or down the line, is there a red line in a politician like yourself, where you say, you know, enough's enough? I've been fighting for a strong Alberta within a strong Canada for years and years and years. But is there a red line in your mind or in your heart or in your soul where you say, you know, if the government crosses

that line, I got to pick a side here and you know, they're making me choose. Well, look, the government has crossed a line. They don't allow us to have unfettered access to corridors. They have the no new pipelines bill. They've got a tanker ban off the West Coast. They have an emissions cap that they're threatening. They've got clean electricity regs that are supposed to come in in 10 years. They've regulated plastics as toxic. They've got a net zero car mandate.

They are threatening to bring in an additional heavy industrial carbon tax and they have a federal censorship law preventing energy companies from being able to advocate and celebrate their emissions reduction. So they've already crossed the line. I'm just asking them to come back a bit. If they continue with those policies, I can't predict how Albertans are going to respond. I'm trying to be reasonable, responsible, try to find some ground, but it takes two to tango. And so people are asking me, I'll work with him. I'm asking if he'll work with me because I have always been on team Canada, but team Canada hasn't always been on team Alberta. And this is

our opportunity to really reset the relationship. And I hope that happens. Alberta premier Danielle Smith, thank you so much for joining us. I know that you are going to be exceptionally busy with this new government, hopefully reshaping a more positive relationship between the province and the federal government. And we really appreciate you taking the time to join us on the Ben Mulroney show. We hope you come back soon. Thanks, Ben. I always appreciate the candor from Danielle Smith, you know, conversations about separatism, would never be easy. And me asking her, putting it to her, you know, do you have to pick a side?

I appreciate her candor there. Welcome to the Ben Mulroney show and thank you so much for joining us on this day after the election. The results more or less are in. There may be a little bit of movement as some of the votes are still counted. But Canada voted and Canada decided to

give the Liberals another kick at the can with a minority government. The Tories have a lot to be happy with but they didn't get over the hump. They didn't do the thing that they said they were going to do. Pierre Poliev lost his seat. And so there are some questions that need to be answered. There is an existential threat. There's always an existential threat. But the NDP have to ask themselves, are they now that Jagmeet Singh has taken his long walk in the snow? Is it time to take that party behind the woodshed? So we have a lot of questions to answer today. And I'm very happy to bring my Week in Politics special election panel together. Please welcome to the show, Dimitri Soudis, Senior Vice President at Kavalia and former Director of

Communications for Prime Minister Stephen Harper, Regan Watts, the founder of Fratton Park, as well as the former senior aide to Jim Flaherty and Sharon Carr, political strategist and partner at Sovereign Advisory. Welcome to all three of you. All right, so let's let's let's jump right in. And we're going to start with we'll start with the liberals and then we'll move to the conservatives, but the liberals themselves, they win a fourth term a third consecutive minority. Sharon,

how they do it? What's the story, according to you to this election? Well, I don't want to be too biased, guys. But I like to be fair here. And for our listeners, I don't want to be too biased, guys, but I like to be fair here. And for our listeners, I worked on the liberal campaign, as many of you know. What I thought brought this over the edge, I will say, is people's desire to want someone who can handle Donald Trump. I think everyone kind of wrote the obituary for the liberals in the fall and didn't realize

how much of, I would say, an issue for the party and the brand Justin Trudeau was. The same thing that got him in in 2015 became a liability towards the end. And change can come in different ways, in different shapes and forms, and I think this was a change election for every party, but in this case for the Liberals it was a change election with a leader. And something that I heard at the door a lot from people was is that they they like conservative politics, but they felt that Mark Carney was the best person to

lead. And I heard that from a lot of conservative voters. The NDP side I heard people just did not have faith in Judwit Singh. So I think that we're seeing a new leader who is showing people confidence that he can be the best person to take on Donald Trump. And I think that's what got us there. Demetri, we've got, last night, if you listen to the speeches, the concession speech by Pierre, the acceptance speech by Mark Carney. Mark Carney said he's got his mandate. He was very excited, beaming with pride.

And he, listen, credit where credit is due, he got his party to a position where they were able they're able to form government. Is this a the strong enough mandate that Mark Carney needs to do what Sharon said? Deal with Donald Trump? win is a win and a loss is a loss. Last night, Mark Carney won. I remember having conversations in the early stages of the election campaign with senior liberal strategists where they were telling me we are aiming for 32 out of 32 seats on the plan in Canada.

As soon as I started seeing the results last night, I said this is not going how they hoped it would go. If you actually look at the results of the election, the only reason the Liberals won yesterday, it's because Quebec delivered the victory to them. They won 43 seats. The last time somebody won so many seats in Quebec was in 1980 under Pierre Elliott Trudeau, who won way more than that. Not even Justin Trudeau in 2015 won that many seats. He won 40 seats in 2015.

The reason why Mr. Carney does not have the mandate that he wanted, Mr. Carney clearly wanted a majority. He used the word strong instead of using the word majority during the election campaign. I've been through two minority parliaments and one majority parliament. What Mr. Carney does not have right now is a blank check. He does not have a blank check to make tough decisions.

And as a very wise Prime Minister once said, tough decisions may be unpopular when they are made but proven to be the right thing for Canada decades later. And Mr Carney's challenge is going to be the exact same challenge that Justin

Trudeau had, which is he's going to have to make deals with the NDP because they have the balance of power. challenge is going to be the exact same challenge that Justin Trudeau had, which is he's going to have to make deals with the NDP because they have the balance of power. Regan, do you agree with that assessment? I mean, this is, to me, obviously, I wanted a Tory majority, but I always said that option number two, if we don't get that, is exactly this, a circumscribed limited Mark Carney government where he can be road tested in a way that he has yet to be done and in a way where there is not an automatic blank check that's given by any one party so that this government does not last four

years like the last minority. A couple things come to mind Ben.. First, actually, as a conservative, I want to congratulate Sharon and her team for the win because campaigns are fought hard, but when it's over, we need to be magnanimous. And I heard that from Mr. Carney and from Mr. Poliev last night, and I want to extend that to Sharon on this panel. I'm not sure if I completely agree with Dimitri that this is not a strong mandate because the votes aren't all done. There's a chance that the Liberals get within a seat or two of a majority government. I think Canadians sent a message to Ottawa last night that they wanted Mr. Carney to be the Prime

Minister and they wanted to see some conservative policies implemented. How else can you explain the size of the conservative vote share which by any measure what Mr. Poliev did was historic for the Conservative Party and he's grown the party in incredible ways and he deserves enormous credit. But I also think Mr. Carney and the strength of his win last night deserves to be acknowledged as well. Look, it's game five in Toronto, and I apologize to the Habs fans on this panel and on this hosting this. Hey, watch it there. But Mark Carney, look, Mark Carney took the San Jose Sharks, who were nowhere near the playoffs,

and basically won a conference final. And he's one goal or two goals away from the Stanley Cup. And he did that in like, what, 20 weeks? That's not nothing. And so I thought we had two very historic results. And I think because of the historic nature of the results, I think Mr. Carney's mandate is a lot stronger, if only because they're so close to majority and

the NDP, they have seven seats and seven bucks in the bank account, or I guess negative 10 bucks, seven bucks, if you think about it. And and I think it'll be it'll bring more stability on the surface and he doesn't need a coalition, a formal coalition like you had like Justin Trudeau had to govern and will govern, I think, accordingly. All right, I'm gonna give each one of you 35 seconds to give me your assessment of where the NDP goes from here.

I'm gonna have a whole conversation later on with two NDP strategists to go deep. So just real quick thoughts. What's the future for the NDP? Sharon, we'll start with you. It goes away. I don't know. Listen, I think that the biggest takeaway

from this election wasn't, I would say, the conservatives and the liberals. It was the complete, I would say, destruction of the NDP and of Jagmeet Singh. And listen, I've got a lot of love for so many of my friends who are NDP strategists and were out there doing their job, but this is horrible for them. And quite frankly, I think that it's time that we focus on parties that are serious. And I didn't think the NDP was serious. And yeah, it's they're going to have to do a whole lot of rebuilding. And I always say they need a leader like Rob Canoe because he is like

probably going to be the best thing that ever happened to them. And here's my official nomination of Rob Canoe for the NDP leader. Regan, one of the funniest tweets I saw last night was somebody pointing out that the NDP had made strong gains in the riding of Gaza. They seem to have lost their way and forgot that they were actually a political party trying to represent Canadians. Well, the NDP, Ben, have gone from the grand old party of broadband and not late and doer, have gone from a party of working class roots with a thick layer of pragmatism to becoming this collection of left-wing activists with pink and purple hair who count pronouns and care

more about Palestine than they do about working Canadians. And so for the NDP to recover, and I believe they'll recover, I think the panel, my fellow panelists will acknowledge the resilience of New Democrats over the last, you know, 85, 90 years or so in Canadian political history, they will recover, but they need to get back to if they want to be successful, a voting coalition that allows them to win more seats. We saw the dissipation of that voting coalition. I think it's in part issue driven. I think it's in part leader driven. But I also think it was event driven.

And so the NDP will come back at some point. I don't know if they'll be Jack Layton, official opposition come back because that's gonna take some time. But they will have to look at the lessons on policy and leader if they wanna make a recovery. And Dimitri, you're will have to look at the lessons on policy and leader. If they want to make a recovery. And Dimitri, you're gonna have to give me your take on the other side of the break. Don't go anywhere. We've got more of our political panel.

When we continue including where did the conservatives go from here? That's next on the Ben Mulroney show. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show. And thank you so much for joining us on this day after Mark Carney successfully led the Liberals back from, I mean the political brink is probably not hyperbolic enough, to form a fourth consecutive Liberal government, third consecutive minority government and we are joined again by our political panel. Please welcome back Dmitri Sudis, Regan Watts, and Sharon Carr. Dmitri, I promise you the final word on where did the NDP go from here. Dmitri, you there?

Oh, sorry about that. That's okay. The NDP has suffered the biggest defeat in the history of the party. the nvp uh... has suffered the biggest defeat in the history of the party uh... and single-handedly jagmeet singh has destroyed the legacy of jack laden and what followed with thomas mokir uh... they will have to pick the right we're like we are in a situation today where the nvp caucus in québec

is bigger than the nvp caucus in ontario they got one even come back and you will see to not carry out uh... is it going to be somebody from within the caucus or are they going to find somebody? You know, one of the names that floated yesterday, very briefly, was the current mayor of Montreal, Valéry Plante, that may be interested. So they have to go find somebody that can bring the party back to at least official party status. All right. Well, let's go back to the conservatives because by a lot of metrics they had a tremendous showing, right? In a vacuum the snapshot

of what we saw yesterday is tremendous. The highest percentage of the vote since since Brian Mulroney, since 1988, it would have and a higher percentage of the vote than Justin Trudeau got when he won his majority and a lot of people are talking about the collapse of the vote given that we were talking super majority not three short months ago but even three months ago they were looking at 200 seats with 44 percent of the vote they came in at just shy of 41 42% of the vote. And so a lot of their problems are due to the collapse of the NDP vote. That being said, they they had a path to victory and they weren't able to

get it over over the hump. Pierre poliev lost his seat yesterday. So what do they do next? And let's start reading with you. Well, I think job one for the conservatives and for Mr. Poliev is he needs to find a seat and get somebody in caucus to give up the seat sometime over the next three or four weeks. I think that's really important. You know, for Mr. Poliev, his challenge is the same yet different than Mr.

Carney's. You know, Mr. Carney needs to demonstrate that the he and he used the term this in his speech last night, humility. He needs to he needs to demonstrate to Canadians over the next six, eight, 12 months that he believes that that they were sent a message and that humility will be a feature, not a bug of his government. Can he communicate the liberals have changed their ways. And, you know, he's got to reach across the aisle. If I was Mr. Carney, I would be looking through the conservative platform, looking for three, four or five things they can include, and then call on the conservatives that when the time comes that they will vote for those things in the House of Commons. You know, for Mr. Poliev, he's got six months to park his ambition and demonstrate that he can elevate his game,

reach across the aisle. If I was him, I'd be meeting with the block and the NDP to figure out ways that they could work together. But he needs to frame the challenge for the liberals as political leader over the next little while. And can the liberals really, truly be an inclusive, moderate party who will govern for the country first? Yes or no, because they've not shown that over the last little while. And I think he needs to, you know, we need to, how Mr. Poliev will react to the Liberal cabinet and the speech from the throne will be telling in terms of his political strategy. And if I was advising him, it would be to, as I say, park his own personal ambition for the next six months and take the message the Canadian sent last night, which to have all parties work constructively in Ottawa.

Sharon, I'm going to come to you in just a moment, but I want to get a follow up from Dimitri, because let's assume for a moment that Pierre Poliev is able to hold on to his seat, despite the fact that the Tories have a tradition of, of, you know, cutting people off from leadership if they don't get everything and anything that they expect and want on day one There's a there's a very short runway for anybody who does not live up to to expectation But assuming that he can he can stay on this is a government that that that doesn't have necessarily the

The runway to go two years three years four years and don't you think that it would be good for all parties? It would be great for the Liberals as it would for the Conservatives if, as Regan just said, they can find three or four things, especially as it relates to the Trump tariff threat, if they can find two, three, four things to find in common to vote for as a bloc representing over 80% of public will? Let's be clear, The Trump tariff threat gets resolved or not through the renegotiation of the free trade agreement that Mr. Trump himself

negotiated and signed with the Trudeau government. That is the executive branch. It will require ratification by Parliament.

I believe in the purest definition of His Majesty's loyal opposition. They are there to oppose in order to replace. And you tell me, believe in the purest definition of His Majesty's loyal opposition. They are there to oppose in order to replace. And you tell me, how can the Conservative Party support the liberal platform that does nothing to reduce deficit, that adds $200 billion to the national debt, that has spoken

very little? Let's not forget, this election campaign, the liberals chose strategically to talk about nothing else other than we will protect you against Donald Trump they did not they barely address domestic issues and that's what we saw yesterday we saw two competing ballot questions the conservative ballot question which focused on domestic issues primarily and the liberal ballot question which just said trust us we. We have the experience, the knowledge. We've a governor of two central banks. We know how to negotiate.

The challenge with Mr. Carney is that he did not get a strong mandate because a strong mandate does not require the support of any other party to pass legislation or a budget through the House of Commons. So the challenge for Mr. Carney is he talked the talk during the election campaign. He will now have to walk the walk. Sharon, in Pierre Poliev's concession speech, he said that it's incumbent upon the Conservatives to with humility sort of recognize the errors that have been made and adjust accordingly. But unless you're unless you're asking yourself the right questions, you're not going to come

up with the right answers. What questions do they have to answer? What were the problems as you see them? Well, listen, I got to say, yes, he's right. And Dimitri, my dude, that's kind of what he's saying. I think that we can agree that maybe the election wasn't a win the way that some folks would have wanted to win. But we've got to acknowledge that Carney and folks did win. And I think that folks like Pierre, folks like Pierre, and I've talked to a lot of people on his team and I think it's been quite public, uh, kind of the infighting and all Paul, all parties have it.

We've had it in the liberal party, the NDP has it. But I think the biggest challenge that something that Pierre and his team are going to have to look at is how do you pivot your messaging and how do you actually adjust to what people want? Now, Pierre Pauliet is an amazingly good communicator and we've seen him be really good at that, probably better than a lot of politicians in English and in French, but where he faltered when this campaign was, for the longest time, he was campaigning against Justin Trudeau and the Corbyn tax, and him and his team just refused to pivot from that sooner.

Maybe if they did it sooner, they would have been able to catch up the way they did, and they finally got there, and I think it was too late. Now if the election went on for two or three more weeks, the polls might have been really different than what they were last night. But I don't think we can say that this wasn't a strong win. I think quite frankly, this was a strong win for Canada, given the number of people that won. And no, a win is a win is a win.

And I think that, yes, the opposition's job is to hold government to account. And I say that with air quotes because they want to be in government but we live in a time where unity is important and the best thing in my advice to the for the Conservative Party is you got to get your your ducks in line internally because if you want to succeed and eventually get back into power you cannot go through the cycle of leadership and in fighting and I think they need to redefine who they are and what they stand for so they can go back to being the Conservative Party they were. But at the end of the day, the Liberals did win.

And whether it's Quebec votes or not, I think that we have to be able to acknowledge that without it being they won, but. No, no, if I can jump in, you're absolutely right. Mr. Carney won the election last night. If we define strong as a majority government, which means he can pass legislation through the House of Commons without the support of any other party, he cannot do that.

And I think it's time that liberals stop hiding behind slogans like unity and elbows up and actually implement an agenda that will do two things. Reduce Canada's dependency on the United States, number one. Negotiate a free trade agreement, as they said agenda that will do two things. Reduce Canada's dependency on the United States, number one, negotiate a free trade agreement. As they said, they are the best negotiators. So stop relying on the opposition and what the opposition is saying, get the job done. All right, we're going to leave it there. All three of you. Thank you very much. I really

appreciate it. And I look forward to talking to you again soon. Thank you, my friend. Douglas Goldstein, CFP®, Financial Planner & Investment Advisor And if you believe as I do that we just went through the most consequential election of our lifetime, you've heard that many, many times, hopefully we'll stop saying it soon. But if you believe that, and then you know that we need to delve into what happened last night and the implications moving forward, not just for the country, but for the parties involved in the election, we got to do it more than once. And so please welcome our second special election panel. This week in politics of the show, please say hi to Chris Chapin,

political commentator and managing principal of upstream strategy Max Fossett, lead columnist for Canada's national observer and Warren Kinsella, former special advisor to John Kretzschia and CEO of the Daisy Group all to all three of you I say happy Tuesday. Good morning. Good morning. Warren, let's start with you. Broad, broad strokes here.

Big blue sky this for me. How they win? How the liberals win? What's the story of this election? Donald Trump, Donald Trump, Donald Trump. You know, I thought that Paulie have actually ran a very disciplined campaign. I thought the liberals ran an okay campaign, but on balance, none of it mattered. You know, what Justin Trudeau leaving, Donald Trump arriving, those were the seismic events

in this campaign, and that's what really determined the outcome. And you know, we may still have a liberal majority. There's just a whole pile of seats that are too close to call, as they say. And you know, it's just extraordinary when you consider at the start of the year, the Conservative Party of Canada under Pierre Pauliap was 30 points ahead. And he's lost his seat, and he decisively lost his seat. He got clobbered by a newcomer to politics, and his party lost the election. So, I mean, at a minimum, I believe that Polly has to take responsibility and resign as leader.

He's indicating he won't. I think that's a mistake. And, you know, I think let the games begin. It's going to be very difficult for conservatives for the next while. Chris Chapin, if the numbers stay where they are, the liberals have a healthy minority, but Warren is right, there are still a number of undecided seats that that could turn in favor of the liberals giving them a majority. So that would be a strong enough mandate to deal with Donald Trump. Do you think? How do I say this? What's his? We still don't know what kind of Prime Minister Mark Carney's going to be because I, in my

opinion, he hasn't yet been properly vetted. We don't know him that well. We're going to learn on the job. What do you think his first hundred days are gonna look like? I'd imagine a lot of work with Canada's premiers. I suspect he'll wrap himself around a lot of the strong leaders we have at the provincial level, because I think it'll insulate them. I agree. I think we gave the keys to this country, to somebody who really is quite the unknown,

you know, unknown politician. We know a lot about his resume. We have obviously seen him as the Governor of Bank of Canada, the Governor of Bank of England. His name has fluttered around for what feels like two decades, but he really is an unknown. You know, outside of the two debates, I think the Liberals did a very, very good job of shielding him from the media. I don't think he ever really got tested, really ever got questioned. I don't think we ever really got to know who Mark Kearney is. And so I suspect that that's what they'll do. I think the premiers have laid the groundwork for him. The trips down to Washington, I suspect he'll keep up this big Team Canada approach. I mean,

he set this deadline for Canada Day for the inter-provincial trade barriers. So I think we'll see a lot of discussion about that over the next next 100 days. Max Fawcett, give me your quick assessment of what the story of this election was. And then I want to follow up with a caller that we had right before the break from Alberta, saying he's fed up, it's time for Alberta to start discussions about leaving Canada and possibly joining the United States.

You're from out there. I'd love your take on the sentiment on the ground in Alberta after this election. Yeah, I mean, you know, I think the story of the election definitely was Donald Trump, but it was Pierre Poliev as well. You know, this is a campaign that I think if Aaron O'Toole had been the leader, the outcome would have been very different. I think if there had been a different kind of conservative leader, you know, maybe someone like Jean Charest, someone like Ryan Mulrooney, I think this would have been a conservative victory.

I don't think it would have been particularly close. But you know, Poliev has always been auditioning for the job of opposition leader. And Canadians tend to do a pretty good job of giving leaders the job they're auditioning for. And that's the job that he was given. So, I think we'll see how that plays out in the weeks to come, as Warren says, let the games begin. As to Alberta, look, it's clear that Danielle Smith wants to go down this road.

She already put out a statement saying that the Liberal government is attacking Alberta, yada, yada, yada. She's gonna to replay those greatest hits because it shields her from having to talk about her own government's failures. But I just don't sense that there's an appetite in Alberta outside of the rural communities that tend to always be interested in Alberta independence. We saw 30% of the vote go liberal. We saw two seats won by the liberals, not as much as they were hoping for, but there just isn't this

groundswell of support for Alberta independence, especially right now. And hopefully Mark Carney addresses that early on. I've written a call and saying that he should get rid of the emissions cap. I think that would go a long way towards nipping this in the bud. And then we can get on to more important matters because Albert independence is not important. Now let's assume for a moment that the numbers that we saw last night hold and the liberals maintain a minority.

How do they get anything through the House of Commons? Do they try to form some sort of official relationship with the NDP? Do they invite some of those caucus members into their party? effectively tacking back to the left after pivoting to the center under Mark Carney? Chris, what do you think? I mean, I think to Warren's point, it's still so close to call too close to call. But I you're talking about I think

the NDP currently have seven seats that math would get them north of 172. I mean, you're talking about a decimated leaderless party that has no leader in caucus, they don't have official party status. So I don't think it will be overly difficult for them to, you know, put some olive branches out, maybe invite some of them across the floor and join the Liberal caucus. I just, you know, how thin that margin is between the minority and the majority. I just don't think it'll be that much of a challenge for them to coerce some of that some of those NDP MPs to vote alongside them. Warren, is it naive of me to hope for a scenario where the Liberals, in an attempt to for a scenario where the liberals in an attempt to govern on behalf of all Canadians try to find common cause on a few key issues as they relate to the Trump tariff threat, on a few key issues that matter to Tories to find something that they could all vote in favor of, because

that would represent over 80% of the will of the people. Well, you're never naive, and I don't think that that's naive at all. I think that's a good idea. I was one of the people opining that, you know, we're going through an existential crisis. We've got the most powerful person on earth talking about taking us over, talking about using economic force against us, you know, mocking us, mocking our leadership, all of our leaders. So I felt for some time that having some kind

of a unity government or at least a coalition or whatever you wanna call it is a prudent thing to do because we've got to respond as a country. Daniel Smith, once again, like she never misses an opportunity to miss an opportunity. Once again, she's breaking away from the popular consensus. She can't even bring herself to say now We need to face the threat that is posed by the United States and by the Trump administration

So, you know, I think that That's not naive at all. I think it's a very good idea Max what what do you think? I mean, I think everybody wins in a scenario like that Everybody has a chance to look like they're putting country over party. Things could get accomplished and we don't go back into the same old routines of, okay, the liberals gravitate to the NDP to get their agenda back and then the Tories gripe about it. It could be a chance to reset and do something different if only on one or two issues.

Yeah, I love the idea. I think if the liberals are looking to poach MPs to cross the floor, I'd much rather see them looking to the conservative side than the NDP side for precisely that reason. I think there's a bunch of issues as divided as the parties are on culture war stuff, on bread and butter issues, whether it's inter-provincial trade barriers, whether it's housing, whether it's dealing-provincial trade barrier whether it's housing uh... whether it's dealing with trump uh... a large amount of overlap between the conservative and liberal on on how to go forward i think the carney should absolutely go down that road he should he should bear the conservatives

to to not go along with them on building more housing on knocking down these trade barriers on building energy corridors and you know he doesn't you know he doesn't need the MP for those. He needs the conservatives to come along for the ride and I think they can and should. All right, well more with our political panel when we continue, including where do the conservatives go from here after this loss in the 45th federal election? That's next on the Ben Mulroney Show. The Ben Mulroney Show marches on supercharged with our second

a special election panel with Chris Chapin, Max Fawcett and Warren Kinsella. Prior to the break, we're discussing where the liberals go once they form government. And now we've got to look at what the conservatives do once since they failed to do what they were at one point poised to do so easily. They find themselves yet again in opposition. And I guess Warren, I'll start with you. You've got a very clear idea as to what the conservatives need to do. But look, they had their strongest vote share since Brian Mulrooney. Pierre did lose his seat. If you look at the numbers, however, when they were poised for that quote unquote super majority of over 200 seats, they were going to do that with 44% of the vote. They they they captured just shy of 42%. So it's not an it's not an epic failure. That being said,

all of that is spin. They lost the election. So what do they do? It is an epic failure. They're not the government when they were a lock on government and their leader lost his seat decisively. That's an epic failure. It's like hockey, second coming close doesn't matter. What matters is winning. They didn't.

Is Poliev going to stick around? He's saying he's going to they've got lots of alternatives out there in the wings Jason Kenny and and many others you know I understand their disappointment but no you know as you pointed out before the break you've got Western conservatives saying to hell with it and they're gonna start talking about forming their own party again I went through this when I worked for mr. Kretzschia. You know, the Conservative Party, as you recall, after your dad left, split into three pieces, you know, the Bloc, the Reform Party, and the PC's. So, you know,

I don't see that necessarily happening in three parts now, but definitely I could see the Western side saying, you know, to hell with Canada to hell with the the conservative party of Canada we're going to do our own thing and that you know that's a happy happy day for Mark Carney or whoever happens to be liberal leaders so I you know it's uh people can spin in any way they want I think it's an epic failure. Chris Chapin does the calculus for the party change if the liberals maintain this minority or if after all the votes are counted, they actually form a majority government? Because if they have a minority with the current calculus, they could plot along for a few

years or they might fall after their first budget. But if they have a majority, they're there for four years, which then gives the conservative party time to rebuild. But if an election can be called at the drop of a hat, don't they need a leader locked and loaded? Yeah, I mean, they do, Ben. And I don't think the calculus does change. I've thought a lot about this since last night.

And I think the party just needs to do, I don't wanna say something as cliche as soul searching, but I think we need to ask ourselves, you know, was the 42% last night a really good turnout in a three way race or was it a poor turnout in what turned into being a two way race? And electorally, it turned out to be not nearly enough in what was a two horse election. But I think the question I keep going back to is why did it become a two horse race? And what what did we as a party do to cause it to become us versus the Liberals? And where what did we maybe do that made the NDP voters, you know, and I

wouldn't even say just the NDP voters, I'd say the entire Canadian electorate, I shifted the There's been a lot of talk that the NDP voters all backed Mark Carney, but the Tories won 13 seats from the NDP. There was something that was appealing to NDP held writings before about Pierre Polias, but there was something clearly very unappealing to many people across the country about the form of politics We put forward and I don't believe that that was solely to do with Donald Trump I think there was something about our party that that we need to figure out what we got wrong because Here poly of his won that seat in in Carlton, you know

Election after election after election handily and and it wasn't a small defeat last night in his own riding and so I think that's where we really need to look at is what what changed so drastically in the last four months and what do we need to do to do to fix that and I think that that I think that's bigger than just the leader. Yeah and Max if if things can change that quickly to the detriment of the Conservatives couldn't they change back just as fast? I mean, the danger is that, you know, there's a lot to like if you're a conservative about Pierre Poliev and what he brought to the party and who he brought into the party. And there's a danger that if you get rid of them after this result, you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater. There is. There's also the risk that you've doubled down on the same formula that didn't work.

And that's the choice that conservatives, I guess, have to make right now. To me, the most interesting under the surface outcome or below the top line outcome last night was Ontario because the seat projections in the rest of the country were mostly spot on. But in Ontario, they missed and the conservatives significantly outperformed. And I don't think Pierre Poliev gets credit for that. I think credit for that goes to Doug Ford. I think that that speaks to the fact that the most successful brand and version of conservative politics in this country is Doug Ford. And to be fair, but Max, let me just push back because because Pierre Poliev and his and his brand of conservatism got a million more votes than Doug Ford got in his election just a

few short months ago. Sure, but that's that's the difference between a high turnout election and a low turnout election. And, you know, Doug Ford's low turnout election was in part a referendum on the you know, his government and how much of a risk it presented and you didn't see the NDP and liberals hurting together in fear of Doug Ford because Doug Ford isn't scary. And he patched together that sort of NDP conservative switching that was what drove a lot of the

conservative wins last night in places like Windsor, where they don't usually tend to win seats at the federal level. So I just think that's the choice in front of them. And you know, Jamil Javani in his attack on Doug Ford, I guess, brought it out into the open, but they have to decide. Do they want to go down the Doug Ford path or the Pierre Follier path? We don't have a lot of time left, but I do want to spend some time on the NDP and where they go from here.

I was musing before that Jagmeet Singh has taken his long walk in the snow, but the question is, should the party be taken out behind the woodshed? I mean, are we now at the point where they've lost their way to the point that even if they got a new leader, they might not be able to rebuild this thing. So let's go around the horn. Chris, we'll start with you. In just a few short sentences, tell me, do they pick a new leader and if they do, what are their chances of rebuilding? I mean, they've been here before. They've been down in the dumps like this and they've bounced back. It's going to take a long time. I don't think you're going to have anybody clamoring to lead that party anytime soon. And so it's going to be a challenge. And so,

you know, maybe at some point, they could beg Wab Kanu to take over the helm of the party. But at seven seats, I don't think that's happening anytime. Yeah, I mean, Warren, the value proposition to bring a guy like Wab Kanu in from from the heights of where he is to the struggles of what he would be required to do. I mean, that's a heavy lift. Yeah, and it's like, Doug, all these people saying Doug Ford

wanted to be like, Doug Ford being leader of the opposition, while canoe leading a party that doesn't have party status, like it's ridiculous. It's completely ridiculous. But the NDP needs to analyze what they did, you know, like saying attacking Polly F during both the baits like paulie it was the enemy the enemy was mark card and you know becoming more preoccupied with gaza than quail you know if you're getting there representing

like it they've made a whole series of mistakes and they are capable there are sensible social democratics so it's not a democrats in this country, you know, there's a majority social democratic party in British Columbia, who's the government. So it is possible, but they've got a long hard slog ahead of them. And they need to have a leader who's got some vision and is prepared to eat a lot of rubber chicken because that's what's coming. Max Fossett, the last 30 seconds are to you. Yeah, I mean, they're not going to get Wabkanoo, but they need someone

like Wabkanoo. They need a leader who understands the importance of economic development of economic growth and who has an economic message. And that's never been something that the judge needs saying has even been remotely interested in. And so, you know, if they're going to rebuild themselves and find their way back into the conversation. They need to draw on the leaders in the West, you know, the David Ebes, the Rachel Notley, the Wab Kanus, the Roy Romanos, who, who have a message for people that goes beyond their identity. And that's, that's going to be tough for them. Chris Chapin, Max Foss at Warren Kinsella, always appreciate your expertise, your insight,

and I hope to do it again soon. Thanks, man. Thanks, guys. the threats of Donald Trump. Tonight and every night, all of us here, we're on Team Canada. We want Canada to thrive and we're going to continue to fight for Canada. Obviously I'm disappointed that we could not win more seats, but I'm not disappointed in our movement. I'm hopeful for our party. I know that we will always choose hope over fear and optimism over despair and unity over hate. New Democrats literally built this country. Tonight I've been forwarded a party leader that I'll be stepping down as party leader

as soon as an interim leader can be appointed. That was the voice of former leader of the NDP federally, Jagmeet Singh, after what can only be described as a collapse of the vote for that party across the country having won no seats in Atlanta, Canada, none in Ontario, and one in Quebec. So where do they go from here? In the face of defeat, every party must ask themselves some very serious questions. And I have to be honest with their answers. And that for theDP to move forward they are going to have to have that very conversation and so who better to launch in that conversation on our side of the fence then with our two next guests Brad Levine the president of Council PA he's

an NDP strategist and Tom Parkin principal at Impact Strategies and Canadian columnist and commentator Brad Tom welcome back to the show. Hi there. Hello. So Brad let's start with you let's start with the party as a whole. Explain the collapse. Many New Democrat voters who supported the party in the 2021 and 2019 election campaigns decided that the threat of Pierre Poliev and Donald Trump was the ultimate ballot question and therefore they decided to support the Liberals by and large. Some New Democrat votes also stayed home and even some still went to the Conservatives in some key battleground writing. So lots to consider as to what went wrong, Ben.

Yeah. Tom, I know that Jagmeet Singh says he sacrificed himself in order to keep Pierre Poliev out of power. Do you actually think that's the case or is that is that some nifty wordsmithing? Because I mean, maybe he regrets not bringing the government down in October. He could conceivably still be in a stronger position today. Yeah, being in a stronger position against the Pierre Poliev majority is not a good position. And that's for sure what would have happened last fall.

And so I believe it's essentially a true story that Mr. Singh is saying and that for New Democrats, left-of-center voters, the idea that he would pull the plug on a government before dental care was in place, before the anti-strike breaking ban was in place, and launch into a Trudeau versus Pierre Poliak campaign, which was only going to come out one way. He would have been condemned for that internally. There's just no doubt about that in my mind. So he had to play for time and hope that he could turn it around. Obviously, he couldn't. Tom, you would know better than I, but the stories that I was hearing prior to this election when the party had official party status was they were having a tough time paying down

their debts, raising the money that they would need to prosecute an election. I cannot imagine that that gets easier if they end up without official party status, which means whether or not the country needs the NDP federally, can they actually, from a financial standpoint, keep this boat afloat? Well, that's a tough question. It is always tougher for the Democrats to raise money than the other parties.

And we're likely looking at a minority. So it looks like there's probably not going to be four years to raise the money that's required for election campaign. But we've got a budget coming at some point this spring. And if Mr. Carney doesn't renounce his plan to cut income taxes for the highest income earners and cut programs that people rely on, $ billion on explained cuts. It seems very hard for me to understand how the new Democrats could support such a thing. Brad, let's talk about who could come in who could create the enthusiasm, mobilize the base, bring new people into the party,

start raising money, perhaps change the minds of people who've turned their back on the NDP. Could that person be Wab Kanu? Could that person be Valérie Plante? Yes. Those are both excellent names. And you know, I think it's far too early to kind of put names out there. But listen, you're absolutely right about, you know right about what's next. I'm actually more optimistic than maybe some of your listeners may see because leadership opportunities create hope.

That is with the next leader, with a new leader, with some new energy, some new engagement with Canadians, that's what leads the money, right? some new engagement with Canadians, that's what leads the money, right? So like money, bodies, votes, it all, I think it's very much leader dependent. And I'm very optimistic that there is a tremendous need, there's a tremendous will among the country. I don't believe that those that abandoned the party

in this election were abandoning the values and the belief systems of the party. They were, I think, moving for the moment. And I think it was one kind of a lending of the vote as opposed to a moving away forever. I think this is a temporary move and I think with the right leader both the energy and the money and all of that which we need to rebuild. So I'm actually quite excited because there are great names out there. There's great people. Wab Kanu, first-term leader and Premier of the Province of Manitoba, fluently bilingual, universally loved within the party,

probably too early because he's made his commitment to the people of Manitoba. He's just, what, two years into his mandate there. Valéry Plon, former mayor of Montreal, fantastic, fluently bilingual, social democrat, has the governing experience, much like Jack Layton did in the city of Toronto before he became leader of our party back in 2003. So there's a lot of great names out there.

I'm actually waking up while I'm sorry to see a lot of great MPs didn't make it past the finish line last night. But I'm incredibly optimistic because the need with the move to the right of the Liberal Party, the need for a strong, democratic party has never been greater. And I think there's a lot of energy right now within the country. So I'm actually waking up today. Sorry to see the results last night, but incredibly optimistic about the future. Tom, I've heard conversations in the face of defeat many times where people say that I didn't leave my party, my party left me.

And the Tories are forced to ask themselves, do they need a pivot back to the progressive conservative days? You know, we heard that Justin Trudeau took his party too far to the left. Is it time that the NDP have an honest conversation about how this party seems, at least from the outside looking in, to have morphed away from the Jack Leighton days, from the Ed Broadbent days, into a party almost single-mindedly obsessed with the struggles of the Middle East? Well, I disagree with that framing of the question. I just don't believe that premise is true. The whole election campaign that Doug Moutain just prosecuted was about affordability, was about keeping the prices of

groceries down. It was a house of rent down. Well, yes, but to be fair, he might have wanted to talk about that, but he wasn't getting any attention for that. So, from my perspective, any time the NDP was making headlines prior to the election, it was over this issue. Yeah. Yeah. So what you're saying really is that other people have been able to misdirect him

from the purpose that he's trying to campaign on by using this ploy. I'll say that. Um, yes, I guess to some extent that is, uh, that is a successful, I mean, you're in a way proving it right now. But I don't believe that it was fundamental to what happened last night. Anyway, I agree with Brad. A lot of it was people lending their vote because they thought it was an exigent circumstance. The question is to approach them back. I do think though, to add

to the point, there could be more work done on tone or mood, maybe. When we think back to early judgment, he was very popular, especially with younger voters. He brought a huge number of, non-white young activists into a party that had been dominantly white. Gentlemen, I'm gonna have to leave it there. I'm gonna have to leave it there. But this is a conversation that we will continue. Thanks for listening to the Ben Mulrady Show podcast. We're live every day nationwide on the chorus radio network. And you can listen online to the Radio Canada player and the I Heart Radio Canada apps. And make sure to follow and subscribe on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your streaming audio.

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