The Ben Mulroney Show - Best of the Week Part 2 - Kevin Vuong, Jas Johal, Regan Watts, Andy Gibbons

Episode Date: April 12, 2025

Best of the Week Part 2 - Kevin Vuong, Jas Johal, Regan Watts, Andy Gibbons Guests: Kevin Vuong, Jas Johal, Regan Watts, Andy Gibbons, Dr. Oren Amitay, Mohit Rajhans If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! https://globalnews.ca/national/program/the-ben-mulroney-show Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Visit your Toronto area Ford store or Ford.ca today. Welcome to the Ben Mulroney Show Best of the Week podcast. We had so many great discussions this week, including our political panel, where the gloves came off and tempers flared. Plus is being a Karen a psychological disorder? That and so much more. Enjoy. Today we've got Andy Gibbons, former vice president of WestJet, as well as a consultant. Jazz Johal, the host of the Jazz Johal show on CKNW in Vancouver. He's also a former member of the Legislative Assembly for British Columbia. And Regan Watts, founder of Fratton Park Inc., former senior aide to the Minister of Finance, the late great Jim Flaherty. To all three of you, I say welcome to the show.

Thanks for coming again. Bonjour, mon chum. Good morning. All right. Glad to be here. Let's jump into this first conversation. former Prime Minister Stephen Harper, praising Pierre Poliev's political experience at this massive Edmonton rally. Let's listen to what Stephen Harper had to say.

And by the way, I say that as the guy who actually did lead Canada through the global financial crisis. I hear there's someone else claiming it was him. It was, of course, our government. the late, great Jim Flaherty. Oh, look, I didn't even realize I was repeating Stephen Harper when I referenced Jim Flaherty. But Regan, we're going to start with you, given that you're so close to it. How big is a Stephen Harper endorsement, who hasn't really politically campaigned since 2015? And especially he makes it clear, Jim Flaherty, the conservatives deserve the credit

for getting Canada through the financial crisis, not Mark Carney, who, I mean, anytime I turn on the TV, I'm being told he's the guy who got us through it. Is there a segment, Regan, of older Harper voters that maybe weren't sure about Pierre, who may come on board to the conservative train because of this? Well, there's a couple of things, Ben, in your question and in Mr. Harper's comments. I'm delighted

that Mr. Harper has remembered that Jim Flaherty was the one who helped lead Canada through the economic crisis. It was he and Jim who worked so hard to get Canada through that difficult period. I think his appearance on stage with Pierre in Edmonton was a very smart move for the Conservative Party. Mr. Harper remains very popular with the party base and party members. And then for those, you know, boomers who are over 55 or 60 and even in their 70s and 80s, they do look upon and look back at the Harper years as a sign of serious economic management and credible government. And so I think it was the right time

for Mr. Harper to show up. I thought his comments were exactly as you would expect Mr. Harper to say, it should shock nobody that he endorsed Pierre Poliev. But I do think it's a smart move for the campaign and the timing was fruitful given that it appears Mr. Poliev has generated some momentum over the last week. Jazz Joe Hall, I'm going to ask you, I suspect your take will be different.

The knock that the liberals have on Pierre Poliev is he's not an economist, as is Mark Carney. But you know who else is an economist? Stephen Harper. So what do you think that does to the argument that only Mark Carney can lead because of his resume? Well, you know, as core, it comes down to what do Canadians want in a leader today and now with Donald Trump and the tariffs. And if you look at the polls and hold are tightening, absolutely. But they fundamentally believe that Mr. Carney is the one to better take on Donald

Trump and the world today as we see it. It is great to have Mr. Harper. I think he brought Canadians together. I think he addressed the issue of the financial crisis quite well. But usually leaders like Mr. Harper are brought in later in the campaign, not in the middle of a campaign. I think it focuses on and addresses the issue.

Certainly it tries to address the issue, that there are challenges before the federal conservatives in regards to reaching those Canadians. Secondly, we're gonna talk about the rally in a few minutes and I know that, but does it help with the two fundamental challenges the conservatives have? Attracting more women who generally are more inclined to vote Mr. Carney, based on the polls that we see.

And secondly, does it help in any way in convincing new Democrats to vote New Democrats? We'll talk about that a little bit later. Those are the fundamental challenges I think the conservatives have in regards to winning. They're holding their base at 38%, 39%, whatever poll you wanna look at. Their challenge is two other things,

which is female support and NDP support cratering, that is the challenge for them and that's going to be very hard for them to turn around. Andy, I take a lot of what Jazz said. I agree with a lot of it and a lot of his assessment. I challenge him on the word of people fundamentally believe that Mark Carney is the guy to do it. I don't think you can fundamentally believe in somebody you don't know. How do you see it? I think one of the effective things Stephen Harper did last night was, it was the first time

that I really heard an explanation of why peers experience is valuable in Canada. We hear a lot about Mark Carney's resume, the nice resume, he went to a nice school, all of that. But what Stephen Harper did last night was explain why peers commitment and parliamentary experience and ministerial experience is what Canada needs now. And I haven't really heard that throughout the campaign. So between your sister's endorsement and last night, I think you're starting to

see people really forcefully talk about why him, why his experience counts, what he brings to these issues. And I think the other big takeaway last night is, Stephen Harper really weighed into this idea that these problems that we have in Canada predates Donald Trump. And let's remember that everybody. And if you want to fix them, the people who broke them are not your answer. And conservatives have kind of been teetering which way to go on that,

and Harper really put his flag down on one side of that. All right. Well, let's talk about the rallies because, you know, on one side, you've got the polls and there's data and those I take them as good faith operators, most of them. But on the other side, my eyes and ears are showing me like there's a dissonance there. And I don't know what to do with it. David Akin of Global News told Mercedes Stevenson on WestBlock that these rallies are in fact a sight to behold. Oh, well anyway, that's what he said. And so I'll start with you, Jazz. In a world where the polling is starting to tighten but still showing the liberals up, how

much stock do you put in the size of the Poliev rallies? Well, I think Mr. Poliev and the conservatives should be quite happy with the fact that they have a strong base and they've built that strong base. They're sitting at 38%, as I said. You're going to see them flip seats

in areas that generally were NDP and here in British Columbia, Northern Vancouver Island, that orange vote is going to go blue. And you can see that in a few writings here. But it goes back- That's why I want to jump in, Jas, because I only want to give everybody a chance to talk. And so, Regan, I'm going to give you 45 seconds. Talk to me about these rallies and what you think they actually mean. Well, two things. One, Mr. Aiken, who made the comment, and Tana McCharles from The Star, who was on the panel with them, are very experienced journalists.

And when they say these are historic and a sight to behold, they say that with experience. I've never seen rallies this size. I think the rally sent two signals. And Ben, you and I were at Mr. Poliev's rally the first day of the campaign in Toronto. It gets the base excited. It gets volunteers amped up. It gives the leader a chance to drive home his message of the day. And the polls, I take the polls for what they are. I also take the rallies as a sign of very healthy, united, motivated voter base who want Mr. Poliev to succeed. I've got to ask Andy, if Pierre has the youth vote locked up, does this signal that unlike in the last election

and more like 2015, there will be a groundswell of motivated young voters who come out to the polls? I hope so. The Tories are definitely banking on that. I think we can all never seen in a campaign in our life in these crowds. So it makes everyone ask themselves, do the polls really, you know, you've talked about cognitive dissonance, right? Are the polls really capped? If we've never seen anything like this before, are the polls, you know, a realistic portrayal of what's happening in society or is something else going on that we don't quite know. And I also think these crowds and the momentum is starting

to become the story of this campaign. And liberals are going to start to say, oh, it's Trumpian and all that stuff. But it's undeniable what's happening. People can see it with their eyes. I mean, you can't hide it. It's an incredible thing. Jazz, I'm coming back to you because I interrupted you. I'm going to give you about 35 seconds here. Look, all I'm saying at the end of the day is I do not doubt these crowds that they do say something, but conservatives have won government when the NDP's vote is at 17, 18, 19%. I think under Jack Layton it was a lot higher. Until that vote comes back, it's going to still be a challenge for the conservatives.

I'm not saying they can't do it, but it is going to be a challenge. Yeah, I take your point. Absolutely. It's been hard. I had a conversation on this show yesterday about what do the NDP have to do to cut through because it seems like the entire spotlight is being divided between the blues and the reds. And until the orange figure out how to make themselves seen and heard, I kind of agree with you on that front. That is a challenge that needs to be addressed. All right, guys, don't go anywhere. We got more with our political panel. Will we continue? Including why is China interfering in our election?

That's next right here on The Ben Mulroney Show. Welcome back to The Ben Mulroney Show and welcome back to This Week in Politics, our midweek panel. Joining us are Andy Gibbons, Jazz Johal and Regan Watts. Regan, I want to start with you because a lot of us are trying to make heads or tails of this WeChat scandal story, a WeChat account

that was as provably linked to the Communist Party of China, that was very laudatory toward Mark Carney saying that he is a tough prime minister from Canada, quick and effective, rockstar economist, the only adult in the room. And there seem to be two parts to this story. If you listen to most of the media outlets, they sold it as Mark Carney being quote unquote targeted, which is not the same as what I just read to you, which is in fact very laudatory comments. And it's a spotlight that praised him.

And the other part of the story is, is this a story about foreign interference, just a story about foreign interference rather, or is there a meaningful connection between Mark Carney and the CCP, and it needs to be uncovered and answered for before the election? Ben, there's a lot in your question there

that I'll try and unpack. Firstly, with respect to Chinese interference and President Xi, your Mr. Xi, pardon me, I think it's a safe assumption to assume that the Chinese government are trying to interfere in elections in a number of jurisdictions. That's just a geopolitical fact that we all have to deal with right now. Whether they are pro-Karni or anti-Karni,

I think the media has an obligation to report headlines fairly and accurately and I think your point about the CBC headline is well taken. The Conservative Party, the people I talk to, I don't think they view that the Chinese interference is having much of an impact on a national basis, but it does put questions in minds for voters about what is the truth and what isn't, and if there is going to be an impact on Chinese meddling, it'll take place in writings where there is a large Chinese diaspora, as Michael Chong, the Conservative Party, has talked about previously. But I do think it talks about, it speaks to the issue more broadly about media and being accurate in the reporting,

you know, whether it's the CBC or even my fellow panelist, Jazz, you know, who had a tweet out earlier in the campaign talking about how Hamish Marshall would be replacing Jenny Byrne as the conservative campaign manager when nothing could be further from the truth. And I think it's incumbent and important upon all media in this country to report the facts. And in the case of Jazz's report, as well as the Chinese interference,

it is, as my father would say, gobbledygook. Jazz, I'm going to let you comment on that point that Regan just made in a moment, but look, I don't like to speculate as somebody on the radio, but in the absence of accountability, it's sort of all I have. And when I see the Chang scandal

where everyone's heads, we were befuddled by the decision to stick with this man who said some terrible things asking for a competitor in the election to be renditioned to China where he certainly would have been killed and he stands by him. I have looked far and wide online. I cannot find any documented proof of Mark Carney

ever saying anything negative about the Chinese government. When you see that, when you see that he's been dead silent on the 100% canola tariffs that have decimated our industry, you put all of that together with this. There are too many questions for them to remain silent. This needs to be addressed. What do you think? It's cool. Look, Mark Carney, Pierre Pauli of Jigmeet Singh, the Chinese government is going to target all of them, and they always have. I represented a writing that was 40% Chinese. The core here is how we respond as a nation to this misinformation. But before we respond, Jazz, Jazz, before we respond, I need the Carney campaign to respond.

These are not questions about Pierre Poliev and Jagmeet Singh. These are specific to him. His behavior, his tone, his tenor, the words he's spoken. There has to be... The campaign has to give us something. Otherwise, these questions are going to linger. Ben, what you're telling me here is that you think Mr. Carney is pro-China, that he has never criticized China, that he isn't concerned about a one-party totalitarian regime? Well, I can promise you. How would no come on how i've heard i've heard the words from his mouth regime it's a one-party totalitarian regime

then we all know that we are a democracy our focus should be on dealing with misinformation this day and age and i can tell you we need to educate minority communities because they're the victims of this, right? That is the issue here at its core. We also need to learn from countries like Australia that are very robust policies on foreign interference, but also foreign lobbying. But they also at its core have firm policies when it comes to joint relationships with its research at our universities, our critical mineral growth strategy. All those types of things is the right pushback on China while we still trade with them.

Those are the things we should be focusing on rather than arguing whether one person is pro-China or another person is pro-China. That is ridiculous. We are a democracy. We're an open democracy. We want to remain an open democracy. We need to collectively, doesn't matter what your background is, pushing back against a one-party totalitarian regime.

But, Jazz, I'm going to pass the mic to Andy, but I'm going to say I never suggested he was pro-China. I'm saying there are too many questions that are lining up that need to be addressed so that we can put this to bed and move on. What questions do you think Mr. Carney is putting forward? Why did he stick with Paul Chang? Why did he stick with Paul Chang? Why did he stick with Paul Chang? Why hasn't he said anything about canola oil? And despite what you say, there is an awful lot online of him saying glowing things about the Chinese government. I do not know why they... No, I have not turfed Mr. Chang. I do not know.

No, he had to leave himself. He had to leave himself and he was replaced with somebody who was almost as bad. But I want to give the mic to Andy. Andy, go ahead. Well, I think there's two things, Ben, I'm with you. One is, it's just another chapter in the like, what's up with the liberal party in China? You know, between Trudeau's comments, your inability to find anything Mark Carney has said negative about the Chinese regime, fact positive things, then Chang and then now this, I think there's just a, what's up with the liberal party in China? How do they think, how do they see all of this? And then number two, it's just that every day is another vetting of Mark Carney.

Mark Carney has not been elected prime minister. He has not been vetted by the King people. He's been here for a couple of weeks in the public domain. So what are his views on Chinese investment in Canada? What are his views on foreign interference? What are his assets held in China? What was his role at Brookfield? And all of these things are being answered in real time. Well, the questions are being asked.

More and more question marks. And look, the questions, Regan, this isn't coming from Conservative Party OPPO research. This is stuff that is bubbling up organically. So I don't think that this is, this is not a political smear campaign. These are genuine questions that I feel need to be answered because if he is the guy who's going to lead us, I want to know, I want to be able to say full throatedly that I know where he stands. I know what his values are. And I know, I know this man. I don't think that's an unfair thing to say. I don't think that's unfair either, Ben. And I think Andy's point about Mr. Carney being vetted and his views on of night during the election because of reprehensible comments

that he made only to be replaced by a liberal candidate who by all accounts is just as bad and potentially if not worse. I do think though, Ben, we should tip our hat to the federal government and the committee that oversees and observes foreign interference during their elections. This is the second press conference they've done, and they deserve credit for informing Canadians.

And I can tell you this conversation we're having now is not the conversation we would have had in 2021 or in 2019 when previous efforts to interfere in our democracy by the Chinese government took place. So I think we need to acknowledge that while not perfect where we are right now, and Mr. Carney has certainly not answered those questions, we are at least being able to have this discussion thanks to the, you know, the federal government

stepping up and filling in some of the blanks. Jazz, I'm going to give you the last word because I know we went back and forth and I stepped on you a little bit. So the floor is yours, my friend. Not a problem. Look, at its core, I want to stick my core message is we have to collectively as consul, as liberals, as democrats, as greens, independents, collectively work together to push back on this. It's not going to end here. Having lived and worked in China, I can tell you, it is a one-party totalitarian regime that's focused on protecting itself and its power and we need to be protecting our minority communities and we need the origin collectively in doing so and that is the only way we're going to be able to push

back on China. We start following down this polarized partisan hole, we're not going to solve anything. So I think we're headed in the right direction, but it's a Canadian way we're going to muddle through at this point. Right, Ben, just on that comment, it is not a partisan hole when the Chinese government is interfering in our election to the benefit of the Liberal Party. I agree with you on that. I agree with you. What I'm saying is, what bickering between us isn't going to solve the problem. You look at countries like Australia that have effectively pushed back. That's where we need to be going. That's what we need to be looking at. Yeah, we're going to leave it right there. We're going to leave it right there. Jazz, I want to thank all three of you. And look, once after this gets taken care of, we can view it as a teachable moment, but until then, there are questions that need to be answered. I thank all three of you for joining me, and I wanna thank all of you for listening.

Hi, I'm Donna Friesen from Global National. Life moves fast these days, and we wanna make it even easier for you to get the news you need. That's why you can now get Global National every day as a podcast. The biggest stories of the day, with analysis from award-winning global news journalists. New episodes national every day as a podcast. The biggest stories of the day with analysis from award winning global news

journalists. New episodes drop every day. So take this as your personal invitation to join us on the global national podcast. You can find it on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Amazon music, and wherever you find your favorite podcasts. My next guest is someone I love talking to. This is a man whose career in federal politics started in a way that he probably did not expect. And it's ending, I believe, with honor and distinction. He is someone who has stood up for the truth and to hold people accountable. He's an honest

broker. And so let's welcome to the Ben Mulroney show, Kevin Vong, independent MP. Kevin, welcome. Thanks for having me, Ben. All right, so let's talk about something that, I mean, it's a story within a story, right? There was a story that came up that there was a WeChat group and WeChat is like an Asian WhatsApp. And in this, there was talk in the news that Mark Carney was being quote unquote unquote targeted. That was the story.

Anywhere you looked online, you believe that he was being targeted. Target has a negative connotation to it. So you would assume that they were making his life harder. If you actually read the story, it's the exact opposite. They are amplifying him. The United States is facing a tough prime minister from Canada. He's quick and effective. He is a rockstar economist. He's the adult in the room. And so A, there's the story of what seems, looks like Chinese party interference. Oh, I should say that this group is absolutely linked, provably to the communist party of China.

So that's one story. And then you've got the story of the press trying to gaslight us into believing it's a store. It's the opposite of what it is. Yeah, it's insane. And you got to put this in contact Ben with some of the stuff that happened last week where they had a liberal party candidate advocate for the execution of a bounty on a conservative opponent. Oh, Kevin, I think it's worse than that. So yes, you've got that story,

the four days where he did nothing. And then when he finally did come out, he did what no sane person would suggest he did, which was stand by his man. We haven't heard a single word from him on the 100% canola tariffs that are crippling the Canadian industry. We have looked long and hard online. I can't find any documented proof

of him ever being critical of the Chinese government ever. Now I may be wrong, I can't find it. So you put all of this stuff together in a blender and I think it's fair to say certain questions need to be answered. I'm not gonna go so far as to call him the Mark Churian candidate, but I kind of think that if he doesn't answer

the questions, that's going to linger in the air. That's right. Every time he's been given the opportunity to stand up for Canada, in defense of our values and Canadian citizens, he's failed. And and now we're seeing after he was finally dragged into replacing Paul Cheung, who does he replace him with? He replaced him with an individual who was on the board of a school that was flagged by CSIS as having brought in busloads of students to help the Don Valley North liberal candidate, Han Dong.

This was in CSIS. This same leader, the CEO of that school, was parting it up with Prime Minister Justin Trudeau. And so you point all these things out and you start, you don't need to be an expert then in public safety or foreign intelligence to realize that this smells funny. Yeah, it smells funny. And, but the fact is

when I see the coverage that this WeChat story got and I see the spin that's almost universal spin that was applied to it, I think to myself, I don't know that the fifth estate is going to do their job on this. Yeah. And, and even for those who do cover the story, who provide a little bit more, I think,

balanced coverage, then they find ways to sneak in. Oh, and by the way, you know, there were five conservative candidates who were tossed. They had nothing to do with foreign interference, but it's just like, why did you need to sneak that in? Why is it that I can only have to look to 640 and voices like yours to get the real truth behind everything. But that's the thing, I don't know what the truth is. If there's nothing there, I want to know in my bones there's nothing there.

And if you're not, if you don't have anything to hide, then show it to us, show us the receipts, show me that you're clean. Because one thing I learned in law school, Kevin, is the appearance of propriety is as important as propriety itself. It's not just essential that something be clean, you have to believe that it's clean. It has to look clean. Otherwise, it might as well be dirty. And they're not taking the steps to ensure that we all believe that this

is clean. And by the way, I'm not the only one saying this. We had an economist on the CBC yesterday, Rob Russo had something to say as well. Yeah, on balance, it looks like they were trying to put a thumb on the scale for the liberals and for Mark Carney. And we should we should all be concerned about that. Everybody should be concerned about that. I've seen no evidence that that he sought their their backing. We all know that he was in China last year as part of a delegation of financiers and

that he met with President Xi. But this is something that should concern all of us. But I just I don't feel that we are I don't think that our media and I don't think that I don't think our media is rising to the level we require of them in this election campaign as it applies to these very big question marks we have about somebody who has already been our prime minister and wants to be it again. Yeah, you know, and whatever happened to Elbows Up? What does it not apply to China?

Does not does it not apply to their foreign interference in our democracy? What whatever happened to the elbows up crowd? And why aren't they showing the same level of passion that you and I have for defending our democracy? Yeah, and before anybody accuses me of peddling misinformation or conspiracy theories, I don't wanna peddle anything but fact, but I have none right now.

I'm being given nothing that fills the void left by these unanswered questions. And until somebody does, I am left to speculate. And that is not on me. It is not my burden. The burden is on them. There's too much suggestion out there that something is awry and they need to write the ship so that people like me do not speculate. But it's a fact, Ben, that they had a candidate that advocated for a communist bounty.

They it's a fact they replaced that person with another person who's affiliated with a school that's been flagged by thesis. It's a fact that Carney was in Beijing. It's a fact that Brookfield has had various relations and investments in China. And it's a fact that Carney was the chairman of the board of Brookfield. These are all facts. And like you said, until they address these,

we have no choice but to ask these questions. Yeah, absolutely. Well, let's look at something that actually did happen that we have some answers to. And let me just tell our listeners who don't, who aren't familiar with Kevin Vong. He has been one of the most staunch and clear voices in defense of the Jewish people of Canada

in the face of threats and intimidation that have been happening since October 7th of last year, or two years ago, I should say. And I'm so proud that he exists and that he champions the right side of history. So what do you make of McGill cutting its contractual relationship with its student union following sort of its role

and its voice in the pro-Palestinian protests? About time, Ben. About time McGill starts stepping up and doing their job. And by the way, simply upholding their own rules and code of conduct. Yeah, you know, the president has failed for the longest time in executing their duty. If you're going to sit in the big chair, you're the one who makes the hard decisions. And that means standing up for all students, right? And having a consistent application

of your own rules on everybody. And I would take it one step further. I keep calling on a rich alumni who've been pumping money into these institutions to sue these schools where anti-Semitism is running unabated and unchecked, suing the schools for all the money that they sent to them in donations for misuse of funds.

I would say if when I gave you a million bucks, I didn't give it to you with the intent of turning the kids into anti-Semites. So I want my money back with interest. Yeah, and you know, it's such a abject failure that we've had to leave it to Jewish students to stand up for themselves. I had a

constituent who in OCAD University, just to bring it back to Toronto, she has a lawsuit against the school for failing to protect her from the threats, the threats of rape against her mother that were etched onto the walls of that school. Yeah. Kevin, I want to thank you so much for everything that you do and the voice that you lend to the important causes. And thank you so much for everything that you do, and the voice that you lend to the important causes. And thank you so much for lending your voice to the Ben Mulroney show today. Thanks for having me, Ben. Every day, if you're on social media, you see at least one video of a Karen going crazy. And everybody knows what a Karen is.

And we want to have a productive conversation about this. But before we do, let's listen to a some audio of a Karen harassing a woman because her son placed chips on the bench by her sister's by her sister's memorial bench, which is in a public park. This bench I donated because my sister passed away. Okay, so my son just set it there and he walked to the bathroom and he'll be Back soon and we'll take it Okay, but now you're attacking me because it's just sitting there Okay, well you're not being respectful to ask. Absolutely not, no. No, she was. Look at the plaque. She asked if it was okay and you said no. Yeah, because my son just

set it down and he's going to come right back and pick it up. It's really not that big of a deal. I don't want trash next to my sister's bench. No, just sing at me. to my sister's f***ing bench. No, I'm not saying that. F*** you. You don't want people sitting on the bench? You don't want the public interacting with it? Don't put it in public, Karen. I'm joined now by Dr. Orin Amate, psychologist.

Orin, welcome to the show. Thank you, Ben. We see this so much that the question bubbled up to us is, what's the deal with Karens? I mean, is can we diagnose them with something? Well, I mean, we can't, I can't diagnose from afar, but I can give you general descriptions. And you know, people toss these terms around as an insult. And as always, when I bring them up, I am bringing them from an actual professional

psychological perspective. I'm not just trying to insult anybody. Yeah. Right, so the reality is, if you look at them, it really boils down to several different traits and the most common ones are all related to narcissism, whether it's an actual narcissistic personality disorder or just narcissistic traits, but they definitely demonstrate those. Maybe we can talk about each one if you'd like.

Yeah, let's do that. Break it down for us. Okay, so we have grandiosity or a sense of superiority. My vision of the world trumps all. I should be able to tell you how to live your life, what to do, et cetera. That's one. We have entitlement. I should have the right to come up to you,

you know, breach your boundaries, encroach on your space and tell you this is what you're doing wrong. this is why you're a terrible person, etc, etc. No empathy. And empathy is not just feeling someone's feelings or something, empathy is taking someone else's perspective. So being able to say okay, you know what, hey, maybe this is a child or maybe there's just some people enjoying themselves or maybe they don't, you know, see the world the way that I do. So these are all traits of narcissism.

There's still more, but I just want to throw those out. And the other thing is there's a strong component of like an authoritarian personality, right? And it's ironic because for them authority rules. So they will call the manager, they will call the cops, they will do all these things, right? But as soon as those people in charge say, hey, you know what, knock it off, you're the problem here,

suddenly authority doesn't count because their grandiosity. That's right. That trumps their respective authority. Yeah, we see it all the time with Karens coming up and asking somebody why they're parked somewhere and why they're filming something or why they're in a neighborhood

where the Karen feels they don't belong. And you're right why they're in a neighborhood where they, they, the Karen feels they don't belong. And you're right, they act as if they are the authority and their feelings in that moment are the only thing in the world that matter. Exactly. And there's also a few other things which is, and people throw again, another insult they throw around cluster B personality, which is narcissism, uh, borderline, anti-social and histrionic personality disorders. And whether it's narcissism or a borderline personality, this emotional dysregulation when you watch them, they escalate very quickly, right?

They'll have an adult temper tantrum much of the time and both narcissists and border people with borderline personality disorder have a really hard time regulating their emotions. So that's another part of it. And, um, you know, both narcissists and borderline people with borderline personality disorder have a really hard time regulating their emotions. So that's another part of it. And you know, there's a whole bunch more. But how can a how can a Karen be cured of her Karenness? Oh, she can't. It's not possible. I mean, the way that they can be maybe stopped is if they have such humiliation, and

that the people around them don't come to their defense and don't say yes, you were the victim here, the people who say, you know what, maybe, you know what, you were in the wrong, or maybe you shouldn't do this. Maybe you were in the right, but it's not productive. That's not going to be. Naming and shaming is the only way to go. All right, we're going to move on to this other story. So look, every school board is different. Issues in the United States are not necessarily issues that we have in Canada, but there are trends, right? There are trends in education. There are trends in society and they can

What happens there can happen here? This is some audio of a school board that doesn't get their own hypocrisy as they try to condemn the language of a father at a School board meeting even though what he's doing is quoting books that are in the school library taught to children. Let's listen. Hello, Navarro. Suck any good **** lately. What's wrong, Navarro? I think you like a big **** in your mouth.

Ha ha ha. Page 23. The other boy, page 23. What's the educational benefit of talking about **** and ****? **** the ****? What's the educational benefit of talking about **** and ****? **** the ****? What's the educational benefit of talking about **** and ****?

**** the ****? **** the ****? **** the ****? **** the ****? **** the **** benefit of talking about? What's the educational benefit of talking about that? Is that going to help someone on the SAT score? Yeah, I'm not suggesting that what occurred at that school board meeting is indicative of, you know, the trends in Canadian education. But I mean, that's a problem. These are educators.

These are people who are making decisions and they're allowing that book to be in a children's school library and they find the language offensive at a school board meeting populated entirely by adults. If you can't get them to see the hypocrisy or how insane that is. And you realize these are the people making decisions

on the education of kids. I mean, that speaks to a problem. I mean, in your experience, do you see kids being, a lot of parents like to go all the way to indoctrination, but do you believe kids are being indoctrinated? And if so, how bad is it? Okay, so I'm not speaking hyperbolically when I say yes, there is a huge amount of indoctrination on my ex feed

documentary. I repost many people who are giving clear examples of this happening in the school. It is bad. It is widespread. And whether it's in Ontario or different provinces, I'm speaking mostly about Ontario, but we are not seeing, let's say, the people in charge standing up to this. They are encouraging it, whether they believe in it or they're afraid because they don't want to

lose their own positions, so they're bending the knee. Look, it's clear, ideology has taken over the schools. And again, this is not hyperbole. It's getting worse. Now, not every student is being brainwashed, but the attempt is there, whether we're talking about politics or about sexual identities and so on. They have a place, and especially at age-appropriate levels. But a lot of these people, and I don't think they're bad, malicious people, most of them, some aren't very narcissistic themselves but the fact is the reality is that you know evolutionarily speaking maybe one out of a hundred people is designed to be

able to be a leader and a teacher is a leader. We have many people in these positions of leadership and authority who do not have the wherewithal the capacity the ability to you know be leaders and so they are allowing this to happen good intentions executed poorly lead to terrible outcomes and capacity, the ability to be leaders. And so they are allowing this to happen. Good intentions executed poorly lead to terrible outcomes. And that's what we're seeing. Well, on that note, with the good intentions leading to terrible outcomes,

you've got a story in the United States, again, of a trans track athlete who had, when they were competing as a boy, was placed last on the junior varsity boys team, I believe falling an entire foot short on the Junior Varsity Boys team, I believe falling an entire foot short on the high jump to then transition and once competing with the girls, beat every girl by a country mile. And look, I'm not sitting here bashing anyone.

That's not my intent, that's not my heart. But how is it not common sense? Like, we go down that path, how is it not common sense that this shouldn't be allowed? But what I'd rather say is, what impact would something like this have on a young girl who wants to compete, and then see somebody coming in and just smoking the competition because they were they were born a different gender. Like I if I had a daughter who was who loved track and field and then found herself just not able to compete anymore. I don't know what that would do to her mental health.

Well, it's affecting on several different levels, of course, it's demotivating. Okay. It's discouraging, it's disempowering. And in reality, the saddest thing is that these girls, whether it's about competing, whether it's about being placed in lockers with, you know, with biological males, the fact is they are internalizing this message. Dr. We're gonna leave it there, my friend. Thank you very much. Okay, some big news came across our news feeds this morning where we saw that Metta, the parent company of Facebook and WhatsApp, as well as Instagram, is now changing its rules

so that kids under 16 will no longer be able to live stream without parental consent. They also won't be able to unblur nudity. And so to discuss this, is it even going to work? Who knows kids find workarounds to everything. We're joined now by Mohit Rajans. He's a Mediologist and Consultant with ThinkStart.ca and also a very good friend of the show. Mohit, welcome. Ben, nice to hear from you. Okay, so I heard this, I was like, okay, this is good. Probably would have been a better idea, like 10 years ago. But okay, better late than never. So why don't you

let us know the details of their plan. So positives exactly what you described this idea that now teen accounts will not have full control and parents will will need to be able to get permission when it comes down to things like live streaming. Obviously, you and I have spoken about the fact that when it comes down to a certain demographic, Metta is losing its audience a little bit when it comes down to Instagram and Facebook use. So what they're hoping for are two things. One, they're hoping to philosophically protect teens who can feel safe while using their platform and also really combat this idea of what exploitation has felt like online. And you know, in the EU, they're really clamping down on big platforms like Metta to make sure that they're not building on some of this inappropriate content that is

lingering on this platform. So we are in a place now where these social media platforms are being held accountable and trying to at least be somewhat proactive, but you and I can kind of smirk about what that means. Well, yeah, I mean, listen, my kids have Instagram accounts and I don't even know what they use them for. I mean, it's not their platform, right?

But I don't remember them even asking me for that gain access, which means they probably didn't say they were they were 14 years old. And I know that that sounds irresponsible, you got to know my boys, they're responsible. And so so I have to imagine that kids have will find a workaround to this if kids if there is an if there's a blurred nudie on a teenage boys feed, they will find a way to see it. I think more so what's significant about this, honestly, Ben, is that it's pretty clear that Metta is about to indulge this world

with a bunch of AI-related work. And the last thing they wanna be held accountable for is the fact that some of the stuff that's on there wasn't necessarily vetted properly, things that are being trained on the wrong things. And I think it's important for them to be able to at least create these safeguards moving ahead. All right, well, now you just brought up

the buzzword du jour, AI, and we're now moving past AI is something everyone needs to learn at work, AI needs to be integrated into how you work, how you optimize your workflow. It is now becoming an expectation in places like Shopify. Yeah, this is fascinating to me. I'll be honest with you. I've followed Shopify since its inception. It was one of those companies that I've always

thought to myself would be very interesting to see what it like it would it be like to work there. And you know, it'd be the only reason I'm saying that is because it really is a wonderful Canadian startup story. And now it's really pivoting into the sort of being one of the leaders of the thought process that AI is no longer a skill that you might sort of indulge in, but hopefully some of your, the internal employees consider it as a vital task and skillset that they bring to their daily operations. What do you think about that? What do you think about a big company like Shopify coming out there fully and saying,

you better be AI-ing in your day? Listen, Shopify has been bold in a lot of the moves that they've made. They were bold when they bought this incredible space for their Toronto downtown office. And then once the pandemic hit, they got rid of it and they went fully remote. I think the president, Harley Ficklestein, is a tremendous thought leader. I think he's somebody who puts his opinion out there

and it's very valuable. I think a lot of people, whether they are in that ecosystem or not, could learn from his insights. So these are guys who are not afraid to be the tip of the sword. And if they think this is where the world is going to go, I think they want to be the first guys at the party.

So good on them. I agree. And I think it also would be counterintuitive for them as a company to say, no, don't be this proactive considering the business that they're serving. You know, they were the type of business that you didn't necessarily have to be at your desk when you're working there.

You could be anywhere and that's the freedom that they've afforded people. And I think that infusing AI in this adoption to their employees is gonna be a bonus for them moving forward because of so many of their vendors that are already starting to use it. So Mohit, I heard a new catch phrase, a new buzzword, vibe coding. And I just assumed that it was something very silly, but it turns out it's not.

What is vibe coding and where is it being adopted and how can it be used? Yeah, it's fascinating because it does sound like a term that we don't want to ever hear again, right? Yeah. It's, you know, when we first heard the word influencer, we all rolled our eyes. I rolled my, when I heard vibe coding, I was like, oh my God, this is going to be insufferable. But no, tell us what it is.

This is where it becomes kind of tricky. Think about yourself as, you know, you're not a professional DJ, but you really know how to blend some good tracks together for a good 30 minute set, okay? This is what's happening with coding right now. You have seen a problem as a normal person and you think to yourself, well, what if I made an app where I didn't have to be on Team Snap with the parents, or I didn't have to be on Facebook when it came down to learning the school

code, et cetera, et cetera. What people are doing are they're using this new AI world and they're just creating things that are not necessarily for business purposes or to make money. They're doing it faster, they're willing to fail and they're just vibing as they say and creating these actual solutions that don't cost a lot of money. So they don't cost a lot of money,

they're personal, they're bespoke. Is there, I guess like through a network effect, could these things find social relevance and relevance in the business world and could all of a sudden, could they accidentally stumble on a solution to a really big problem? This is the new Reddit.

If you know, if you think about it, right? This is the new way that open source is gonna create things. And of course the job displacement, unfortunately became the broader conversation. Whenever anyone talks about AI, right? This is the new way that open source is going to create things. And of course, the job displacement, unfortunately, became the broader conversation. Whenever anyone talks about AI, they're like, well, what about the world of work? But so, you know, yes, it's true. It might not take 100 engineers to do a certain app, but not you don't need 100 engineers to make the app for the parenting group. So I think vibe coding is really this idea that people who are don't necessarily feel extremely technical can have a little bit of a say on the operational side.

All right. Well, that's an optimistic take on the future. Let's look at something that's sort of a pessimistic view of the present. Talk to me. There's an article in the New York Post about the challenges of of Gen Z being branded the ghosted generation. What does that mean? There's this real like disengagement idea about what to expect from Gen Z in the workforce right now. And I think we're going into summer season right now, an internship season for many people.

And it's probably something that they're all facing, right? So on one hand, you've got Gen Z looking to really show that they're able facing, right? So on one hand, you've got gen zeds looking to really show that they're able to work in a modern world and based on rules and regulations, but they're also very typically labeled as unreliable, never on time, don't pick up the phone, don't necessarily even respond to text unless it's by certain people.

And I think what's happening, it's reflecting this cultural distrust, this collapse. And you can't sort of be in two places at once in this. You can't necessarily ask Gen Z to come in and fit into a work environment and also be extremely accessible and know how to work from anywhere, et cetera, et cetera. So I think we all have a little bit of responsibility to understand that a connected generation is there to work hard, just takes a little bit of an influence from multiple generations in the process. And that's the thing, I'm willing to live in a world where their experience, their inputs are, their outputs are gonna be different because their inputs were different. But I do

not believe we're not, we're speaking different languages, there is a way to get them to appreciate that there is a larger culture that they need to be absorbed into and ultimately affect. But Mohit, thank you so much for joining us. I really appreciate it. Have a great rest of your Tuesday. Always a pleasure, take care. Thanks for listening to the Ben Mulroney Show podcast.

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