The Ben Mulroney Show - Best of the Week Part 2 - Warren Kinsella, Alan Cross, Sylvain Charlebois

Episode Date: June 7, 2025

Best of the Week Part 2 - Warren Kinsella, Alan Cross, Sylvain Charlebois Guests: Warren Kinsella, Dimitris Soudas, Tom Parkin, Alan Cross, Sylvain Charlebois, Mohit Rajhans If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! https://globalnews.ca/national/program/the-ben-mulroney-show Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Rise to rewards with the BMO Eclipse Rise Visa Card. Terms and conditions apply. Summer is Tim's ice latte season. It's also hike season, pool season, picnic season, and yeah, I'm down season. So drink it up with Tim's ice lattes, now whipped for a smooth taste. Order yours on the Tim's app today at participating restaurants in Canada for a limited time. Welcome back to the Ben Mulrooney Show and it's time for our midweek panel this week in politics. And you know, I like to say that we, we find our listeners wherever they are. Well, we also find our guests wherever they are because we've got a number of guests joining us right now.

Dimitris Soutis, he's the former director of communications for Prime Minister Stephen Harper, as well as Tom Parkin, principal at Impact Strategies and Canadian columnist and commentator, as well as Warren Kinsella, and CEO, he's the CEO of the Daisy Group, and we find him in his car. To all three of you, I say welcome to the show. Hi there. All right, gentlemen, I want to start

with the First Minister's Conference, because, you know, we've got to take these ministers at their word. I was wondering how it was going to go and how well the Prime Minister was going to acquit himself amongst the provincial leaders. Here is what Doug Ford said about how well the meeting went. Let me tell you, I'm going to be very blunt here. This has been the best meeting we've had in 10 years.

Simple. Best meeting I've had in seven years. And there was no expectations. The Prime Minister was going to come out and say, you get that project, you get that project. It was a great discussion. Now we were all talking. Now it's time to put it into action.

All of us are responsible. But I thought it was an incredible meeting. Great communication, great collaboration. And we all walked out of that room united. And I believe the Ontario premier also called the prime minister Santa Claus. So is this just Doug Ford being Doug Ford or has Mark Carney genuinely been impressive this early on the job? Warren, I'll start with you. Mark Carney, get at your checkbook. When the premiers are being that complimentary,

they don't just do that for donuts. They're doing that for a reason. So I presume that Mr. Carney indicated to them a loosening of the federal purse strings, for whatever reason, you know, more liberalized inter-provincial trade, a more unanimous front on tariffs and Trump. I don't know what motivation was. I wasn't in the room. I guess none of us were. But that's some of the most positive stuff I've heard coming out of a provincial premier's mouth about a prime minister in a long, long time. And there's usually a price tag attached to it. Demetri Soutis, these premiers represent all

political stripes with different agendas and different priorities and different asks. So for Doug Ford to come out and make that statement, what does it say to you? Tens of billions of dollars are about to flow. That's what it says. And yesterday, nine out of 10 premiers were there. B.C. Premier, Eby was not. I gather he was on a trade mission somewhere in Asia. But listen, Warren has attended many federal provincial meetings between premiers and the prime minister as I have one thing that prime ministers avoid like the plague is meeting the premieres why because every time they ask for more money. And what mark carnage trying to do though what he's trying to do is to get buy in from the premieres on the legislation that he's gonna be tabling in the next few days or as late as next week, which would basically change the rules to be able to fast track and to be able

to get some big projects going, whether it's natural resources, energy, mining, and so on. But when a premier calls the Prime Minister Santa Claus, you have to worry because premiers are seldom and rarely ever content with what the federal government's going to give them. Tom Parkin, are you going to make this unanimous? Yeah, but let's add one more dimension on here is that we really don't know what's being talked about. It's very vague, very general. And for those of us in the, you know, just observing from the outside,

and I suspect even from those in the room, there are maybe hopes about what's being talked about, but there's really nothing being talked about. There are national interest projects being talked about. And every premier has forwarded a list of them. Doug Ford thinks that tunneling under the 401 is a national interest project. I don't see it. I think it's maybe a local fantasy, but it's not a national interest project. So what are we even talking about here? Well, I'm glad you said that Tom. It does seem like a big poker table and we haven't seen all the players yet. I'm glad you mentioned that because that dovetails into our next topic and I'll come to you first on this Tom, but here's what Mark Carney talks about he laid out the criteria for fast-tracking infrastructure

projects let's let's listen to some of the details we had wide-ranging discussions there was a lot of preparation for this meeting we discussed a wide range of potential nation-building projects including and this is far from exhaustive the Western Antarctic corridor which amongst other things connects energy critical minerals and trade infrastructure the the Eastern Energy Partnership, critical minerals pathways, which include a range of critical mineral projects that premiumers can speak to the next stage of nuclear from uranium

to SMRs to large scale nuclear, and a series of infrastructure investments for export diversification from ports to rails to last mile roads. So he mentioned a lot of things and look, but he didn't mention pipelines Tom. Now this is not a discussion about whether or not you think we should be building pipelines. This is a discussion about the fact that this is a man who is very precise in his language and for him not to say something is as significant as if he were to say it. So what do you make of that? Yeah, he did later under questioning from a reporter

talk about, because the report was very blunt, what are you talking about here in terms of the infrastructure as it relates to pipelines? And he did give the answer of, well, yes, I'm talking about pipelines. I'm talking about decarbonized bitumen pipelines. I'm like, what's a decarbonized bitumen part pipelines I'm like what's a decarbonized bitumen so you know it's like the more mysterious it gets as you fall into it a little bit

more so you know there's a there's a there is there we also heard Daniel Smith the other day say that that if the timelines are shortened, the approval processes are shortened or attenuated, then a proponent of pipelines will come forward, which is a bit of a mystery in this whole darn thing. Yeah, and Tom, yeah. Who's paying for this stuff, right, Ben? Well, that I… Is it going to be private sector partners or is it going to be the taxpayer?

And that's what I don't understand, Warren, is, you know is when he references SMRs, he just references SMRs. But for some reason, when it comes to pipelines, there is all these, he wordsmiths his way into, I don't know, creating loopholes. I struggle to understand the exceptionalism of pipelines given how they've dominated our public consciousness and conversations for so long. Well, the political reality, and all of us know it is pipelines are unpopular in the

province of Quebec. The province of Quebec derives its energy from hydro. And so the preoccupation with pipeline energy, energy that comes via a pipeline is just not there. And so that's a political reality every prime minister needs to deal with. But I'm guessing that the political reality that's a political reality every prime minister needs to deal with. But I'm guessing, like, I don't know for sure what it is because you're, you know, you guys are right. He is equivocating on the issue.

And I find it bizarre because the one thing that was clear coming out of this election was, you know, everybody is moderated their position on pipelines, including the NDP and the liberals, and are much more willing to entertain the discussion. So it's Premier Legault. Yeah. Well, that's, I want, I want to bring Dimitri into this because Dimitri knows Quebec very

well and it does, you're, you're right, Warren, that, but the polling that, that I saw at the, it was a few weeks ago. But there was finally, we finally had a plurality of Quebecers who were willing to have a conversation and entertain the notion of pipelines going through their territory. So again, I'll put the question to you, Dimitri. What do you make of the equivocation?

So the equivocation, as far as I'm concerned, is that when he refuses or tries to avoid to use the word pipeline, he's actually speaking to the caucus that he inherited. A Trudeau caucus that basically put up every single barrier you can imagine to ensure that oil and gas stay in the ground. So he's got some challenges. How long, how much longer is Stephen Guilbeau going to tolerate this for? He is the minister who brought in the carbon tax. He's the minister who brought in a cap on natural resource production. So in terms of pipelines, and I do want to go back to the issue of Quebec, and Warren is quite right when he says that there's

reluctance on pipelines in Quebec. Now we have two types of pipelines, and I do want to go back to the issue of Quebec. And Warren is quite right when he says that there's reluctance on pipelines in Quebec. Now we have two types of pipelines, pipelines that can bring natural gas to Set-Sail for example. You're very familiar with Set-Sail, Ben. Yes, indeed. By the way, I'm going to need you to tighten up. I need you to finish up in about 20 seconds. Okay, so long story short, there's a path to having a pipeline with liquid with natural gas into Quebec. The pathway for oil will probably go through Manitoba into Hudson's Bay. Okay, well, listen, thank you very much for that. And I'm sure we'll be talking about more about that in the future. After the break with my panel, we're going to talk about something I haven't seen in a very long time, a liberal government losing a vote in the House of Commons.

Don't go anywhere. This is the Ben Mulroney Show. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney Show and very pleased to continue my conversation with my midweek This Week in Politics panel. And we've got Dimitri, we've got Warren and on camera now we've got Tom. So the three of you I say welcome back. Thanks so much for sticking around. Hey there. Yeah, I want to talk, and Demetri, I'll come to you first. I wanna talk about the Air Canada's first ever

2SLGBTQIA plus flight where everyone on board that was working for Air Canada was a member of that community. They posted it to social media. It was a moment of pride for them. And they got a lot of pushback on social media to the point they had to turn off their comments. It reminded me, maybe unfairly, and you'll let me know,

of Bud Light's hiring of a trans influencer to help them sell beer, and they promptly saw their sales drop. And to me, we live in a world where, if you're a gay pilot, you can work anywhere. I don't I'm I struggle to see the achievement of excluding anybody else from the flight. And I don't know, I just feels like we've moved past these things. What do you think?

Well, there's there's the question of gender, gender identity and sexual orientation. My question behind such campaigns is to what end? Hire people regardless of their sexual orientation, hire people regardless of their gender identity, hire people because they are good, because they excel. Meritocracy. I don't know what purpose it serves to do this. It probably creates more of a gap rather than to actually bridge the gap on issues like this. And Tom, I'll bring you in next because look, it's not like they hired all these people due to some initiative. All these people already

worked for the company. Therein lies the accomplishment. So everything else is, to me, feels like performance for performance sake. I mean, these guys are pilots that rose the ranks of Air Canada. These are flight attendants with tenure, and they've been experienced. So I don't know the point of this at this point. I feel like we as a society are past this.

But I'm speaking from my perspective, obviously. Well, I didn't look at the comments. I bet you there were some pretty horrific ones. Of course. Let's be honest about that. Some pretty disgusting comments. Now, having said that, I understand. There were also people who are gay and said,

like, this is a near Canada, kind of a crummy company that charges you a lot of money just to of a crummy company that charges you, you know, a lot of money just to take a bag on the plane now. And they're trying to shine their image on me. Yeah. So that's kind of annoying. Yeah.

And then there's kind of a, just a second part to this. So there's the horrific, there's the performative. And then there's a third little piece, which is really about the kind of the center left audience the progressives which is the language that the left uses to talk about opposing racism opposing hate Is really alienating to use another alienating word It's it comes from so outside the mainstream that it disconnects from people's everyday experience. And it pushes back the cause that it's trying to espouse,

which I believe, you know, except for those horrific people, most of us want a Canada where everybody gets to succeed on their merits and nobody has to face discrimination in a job, at a school or anywhere. Yeah. And that, and Warren, Warren, I think that's where we were. I think that I thought that's where we were. Cause like I said, all these guys already worked for Canada. I think, um, whatever issues like this come up for me, um, I always remind myself of what the, the definition is of woke, you know, because woke is kind of the general term that gets applied to these types of situations.

And woke means being alert or aware of prejudice and discrimination and, you know, expressions of bigotry. And all of us, you know, Tom and Dimitri and you, we're all of us by that definition are woke. Tom and Demetri and you were all of us by that definition are woke the reason why I think the forces of woked them got into trouble is Not because they were aware of prejudice and concerned about prejudice but because they were preachy about it and pious and Condescending to people and

Impatient with people and then in instances where they found opposition or disagreement, they sought to cancel people. And that's why I, you know, an extreme manifestation of that side of the argument is, you know, the mega Donald Trump stuff, where they ran a campaign very successfully against this type of approach. So like, there's nothing wrong being aware of prejudice, nothing wrong with being against prejudice. That's what you should be. It's just, you know, being preachy about it

and pious about it, that's what turns people off. Well, we're going to end this conversation with something I just didn't see in the last parliament in any significant way. The liberals suffered their first loss of the new parliament on Monday after a conservative amendment to the throne speech narrowly passed. So the amendment called for a firm commitment from the government to introduce an economic update or budget before

the house rises for the traditional summer break. And it passed 166 to 164. There were four liberal MPs who weren't there to cast their vote. Is this significant? I'll start with you, Dimitri. Is it significant or just an embarrassment to Mark Carney? Well, it's both. And honestly, the responsibility lies with the whip, the whip of the government who is Mark Marison, which by the way, many liberal MPs tell me that that's probably the MP they the MP they dislike the most. If this guy does not learn how to count and learn to count quickly, we may end up in a Joe Clark situation.

Because if you lose a vote on an issue of confidence because you don't know how to count, because you haven't lined up your MPs, boy, you're in trouble. So this is strike number one for Mr. Marison. Yeah. I'm not sure Mark Carney gives people more than two strikes, so he better get it right the next time. Yeah. Warren, something tells me this wouldn't

have happened under your old boss. No, and it's Mark Garrison, by the way. I understand why Demetri wants to blank out his name in his mind because Mark Garrison is truly the worst member of parliament without qualification. And I was blown away when they gave this guy some kind of responsibility in the house. So I'm not surprised in the slightest that this happened,

but it is significant because it's about the budget. And they don't have the budget ready. Frankie Bubbles, Minister Champagne made that clear. They weren't gonna have the budget ready for months. So I you know, I don't know if they revote this. I'm not sure what the procedure is, but it's definitely an embarrassment. It's a bit of a black eye. And the guy who wears it is Mark Garretson.

And Tom, I gotta say that what a difference a few months are because the NDP that were in the House of Commons, they all voted against the liberals on this. So is this a sign that the love in between Trudeau and Jagmeet Singh, those are long gone days. They are long gone. I think we're just gonna see the NDP move it to a more purely opposition perspective.

And there's also an accountability issue here. I mean, at first, Mr. Carney said you weren't even gonna have a budget this year, which was kind of like we're just going to have an economic statement, that would be it. And then he backpedaled and said, oh, we'll have a budget, but we'll have one in the fall. So yeah, well, the final day of fall, just so everybody remembers, is December 20th. Exactly. So there's a significant issue, and that is offensive to Parliament. And this is a tweak back at the government, then Mr. Carney, that don't be so high handed. Nobody, you know, I know you didn't get elected before you became premier.

And maybe you think, you know, all your life has been a dream. But you're not the executive vice president of Brookfield anymore. Or, sorry, the executive chairman. You're the prime minister, and you're accountable to parliament. Well, I tell you, I just, prime minister and you're accountable to parliament. Well, I tell you, when I saw this news today,

I just didn't expect it. It kind of hit me in the face because I was so used to the liberal governments finding a way to get their votes passed as just as a matter of course. And so for a first week, the first couple of weeks in the House of Commons, not necessarily the best start for them.

Hey, to all three of you, to Dimitris Soudis, to Tom Park and to Warren Kinsella, thank you so much for joining me. I mean, if this is a taste of what we can expect over the next Parliament, it's going to be a doozy. I'm going to be relying on you guys for your assessment of the facts on the ground. So thanks so much. Enjoy the rest of your day. Thanks, guys. your day. Thanks guys. Now that the warm weather is here, is it time to get rid of your old car? Oh sure, it's served you well but you know it'd be kind of nice to have something new. Maybe a convertible, maybe something with a sunroof. I know car shopping can be an overwhelming experience. Is this a good price for the vehicle? Am I even looking at a vehicle that's right for me?

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Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney Show. And you know, in my mind, I haven't been to Texas in a very long time, but in my mind, that's, that's sort of like where where freedom reigns, right, like, stock, and barrel, into Texas where they can, they are free to build the company they want and live the life that they want. And so when I read this morning that there's a Texas bill on the verge of becoming law that would require labels on packaged foods from Skittles to Mountain Dew to M&Ms to Doritos that would warn about ingredients that are quote, not recommended for human consumption. I've struggled to understand why that's happening in Texas.

But then I remember that Donald Trump has as his, as his head of the Department of Health and Human Services, a guy who's there to make America healthy again as the head of the Department of Health and Human Services, a guy who's there to make America healthy again in Mr. Kennedy. And so I gotta wonder whether that has something to do with that. And it's... All right, well, here joining us,

we've got Sylvain Charlebois. Oh, wait. Oh, shoot, I'm on the wrong story. God, I'm on the wrong story, guys. We'll talk about that after. Instead, let's pivot back to what we were supposed to do. Let's get that in the way back machine to two minutes ago before I was incompetent.

And let's welcome Alan Cross, the host of the ongoing history of new music. Alan, I apologize. I'm sorry. I read ahead. That's OK. I was prepared to talk about Doritos, but if you want to move on to something else, that's fine. I apologize, I'm sorry. I read ahead. That's okay. I was prepared to talk about Doritos, but want to move on to something else? That's fine.

I apologize, my friend. No, let's go into, uh, the health of live touring music, because back after the pandemic, uh, we were, we were living in a world where people just could not get wait to get out and experience live music and go to festivals. And now we're seeing that the health of that entire industry may not be as healthy as we expected. We're not really sure we're getting mixed signals right now because people are not buying tickets the way they used to in the last couple of years. If we look at, for example, Beyonce's current tour, she had like 3500 tickets available for opening night in Los

Angeles and there were other places across the country as part of the itinerary where there were still tickets available within days or even weeks before everything was supposed to start. Meanwhile, we have Live Nation, the biggest promoter in the world telling us that they have sold more tickets for 2025 than they did in all of 2019, which was the last big year before the pandemic. So we're not really sure exactly what's going on or who's spinning what, but. Well they had Alan, they could, they could be selling more tickets to more fewer tickets, like overall more tickets, but per they could have so many events that they're hosting

or putting on that that it's fewer tickets per event. Right. So it may be just a matter of math. Yeah. You know, for example, live nation has this thing that they do every year where they sell $30 concert tickets to a variety of shows at their amphitheaters across North America. And they have, they traditionally do very well for that. And they make their money back by, you know, on, on food and beverage, on parking and everything else because they own the venue. Right. So that could be part of it. The other thing that I'm thinking about though, and this is anecdotally, people are coming

up to me and saying, I can't afford to go to shows anymore. Yeah. I just don't have any money in the budget anymore. Yeah, that was the next question I was gonna have. I mean, a lot of people today, they used to be able to afford their nice to haves, and now they can't afford their nice to haves, they're focused entirely on their must haves. Right, and concert tickets, I think, are one of them.

And it's especially bad for mid-level and emerging artists because if you're gonna spend money on a concert, you're gonna go see a big star. And that's extremely expensive by the time you buy the ticket, go to the show, buy the merch, and sell. The Taylor Swift, the Taylor Swift's of the world. Yes, and she, well, even now, she's not on tour, but Beyonce is, and Beyonce became like a number now, you know, she's not on tour, but you know, Beyonce is, and Beyonce became like

a number two, number three to Taylor Swift, and she's not selling all her tickets. So the other problem too is with small and medium venues, people, young people aren't going to shows the way we used to in our day. A lot of them missed out on that rite of passage because of COVID. They never got into the habit of going to shows.

Those who do go to shows don't drink. And that's a real problem. Because what they're, you know, usually with these, a lot of these shows, the band will get the door, the ticket price, and then the venue will get the bar. And that's proving to be a real problem. All these people, fewer people standing around,

not drinking. Yeah. But Alan, does it have something to do as well with, have we gotten to a place where the expectations of, say, the musicians about becoming Matt, like making tens upon tens of millions of dollars, maybe it's time to right size that expectation that, uh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. That ship. Yeah. That ship sailed long ago. And, you know,

the musicians that I talked to are, are, you know, they're struggling. There was a, uh, mental health survey of Canadian music industry players that came out earlier this year. It's the preliminary part of this, this survey that will survey that will be released in full in January. And a striking number, I think it was 52%, said that, you know, I'm a musician and life's just not worth living. I mean, it's really dire because a lot of these upcoming musicians and even medium level musicians have to take day jobs to finance their musical aspirations. And if you're touring or going out at night late, bad hours, bad food, bad everything,

and then you've got to be at work in the morning, it's a terrible situation. So if you talk to a lot of, again, emerging and mid-level musicians, they're really struggling. They're having a hard time because they have to tour, they have to play live because that's the only way that they make any meaningful money, but now they're not even making meaningful money from that. Yeah, and what do you make then of the story, which I'm sure you've heard of All American Rejects

going on a tour of bowling alleys and people's backyards and really creating viral moments in these house parties that they're hosting, bringing people back to the early 2000s and allowing them to sort of be showered in nostalgia. And these guys are really, it looks like they're winning with this strategy. Yeah, it's, you know, if you're in a punk band,

you played a lot of legions, you played in a punk band, you played a lot of legions, you played a lot of parties, you played a lot of backyard. And that was one way to create word of mouth for what you were doing. And if it works, and people are willing to, you know, foot the bill for whatever it is that you're doing, absolutely. I think it's fantastic. But, you know, a band like All American Rejects would have been playing larger festivals and larger shows not that long ago. So this is a good PR strategy. It's a good career strategy. How sustainable is it?

I don't know. Talk to me in October or November. Now, so back to the larger question. Is this is this concerning trend? Is this an indicator of the overall health of the music industry right now? Or is it is it something where the jury's still out? Well, it's not looking good right now. However, people do recognize that there is a problem.

It'll be interesting to see what the new liberal government does when it comes to funding the arts. In the UK, for example, what they're doing is they're putting a one pound fee, a one pound levy on the price of a concert ticket for shows at venues of 5,000 people or more. So bigger shows. Yes. One pound. That's, you know, one quid, not nothing, you know, massive. And that money is being funneled back into the ecosystem to help keep small venues alive. So far they've raised about 500 million about 500,000 pounds. It's early.

Yeah. Everybody seems to be on board with this, this idea of keeping the farm system, the way talent develops. That actually, the way when you describe it like that is keeping the farm system alive. It's actually quite brilliant. It makes a lot of sense. Well Live Nation is doing the same sort of thing in Canada and the United States. They're buying up some small places. You know, they've, for example, in Ottawa, they recently bought an old chapters bookstore

downtown, and they're turning it into their version of history, which we have here. Oh, wow. It's about 1100, about 1100 capacity. They have key to Bala. They have the opera house. They have a number of small places. Again, Live Nation needs to build acts so they can funnel them and develop them and mature them so they can go on to play the amphitheaters

and festivals that they promote. Alan Cross, thank you so much for being here. I would have loved to have asked you if you eat Doritos and Skittles and whether you think that they are suitable for human consumption, but we'll get to that another day. I am an M&M person. Thank you, Alan.

All the best, looking forward to talking to you again soon. Okay, bye. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney Show and I got a little ahead of myself in the last segment so let's start over. There's a story coming out of Texas which I just at first blush sounds like a very un-Texas thing. Texas is where people move to be free of government intervention and taxes and regulation. It's a home of the free

and it's the embodiment of the American dream. And yet I read that there is a bipartisan bill aimed at strengthening nutrition requirements for school kids and mandating labels of certain food additives to the point that foods like Skittles and Mountain Dew would warn that the ingredients are not recommended for human consumption. So here to talk about that and other food related stories. Very pleased to be joined

by the high watermark in these affairs is Sylvain Charlebois, the Canadian researcher and professor specializing in the food industry, food professor. Welcome to the show. Good morning, Ben. So what do you make of this bill, which is making its way through the legislature in Texas, and it is getting bipartisan support? Yeah, it's an interesting move. So I should remind your listeners that the Secretary of Agriculture is from Texas. Actually she's an alum of Texas A&M. And the field, and I was actually in Texas just last week and the field is a bit different.

I do think that there is more importance given to public health. Even in Canada you feel it as well when you look at some of the policies that are coming out of either Ottawa or different provinces. Public health is an important issue and that's impacting policy all over North America. So and Texas is not immune to that. And look, warnings help. I mean, we've seen in the precipitous drop of people smoking, there's no way the disgusting warnings on the packaging haven't helped get those numbers to drop. So warning labels do help. To me, it was, had this happened five years, 10 years ago, there's no way Republicans would have supported it. It just so happens in my opinion, that, that Robert Kennedy Jr., who has been entrusted with making America

healthy again, has that portfolio and it's under the Trump banner that it is now found purchase amongst Republicans. Exactly. What I mean, the spirit behind this new policy is not about banning things. It's about encouraging behavior and incentivizing companies to reformulate and and change how they commercialize different products. We're actually seeing any Canada as of January January 1, 2026, we will see more front of package labeling telling consumers if a product has too much fat, sodium, or sugar, basically giving more information to consumer and let them decide instead of just banning things.

Well, you know, and that's a good point. I mean, essentially cutting through, and it's almost like giving people a translation for the confusing list of ingredients that are on the back. We don't necessarily know what all those things are. And just because they have a complex name doesn't necessarily mean that they're unhealthy. But for somebody to then translate that and say, here's actually what it means for your overall health and for your blood pressure and for the fat that you're consuming, that could be a good thing. Absolutely. So, so I actually really like the approach if you actually give all the information possible to the consumer and let the consumer decide what is good and not

so good for them and loved ones. Yeah, I think that's the way to go. And then the market basically will decide and will incentivize companies to provide different products to the marketplace. All right. Let's move on to another story because a few months ago it was all about buying Canadian in the face of American tariffs, Canadian flags everywhere. We were trying to appreciate what's the difference between a Canadian company and made in Canada, produced in Canada, and you saw Canadian flags everywhere.

And the hope was we were going to pick the Canadian product over its American counterpart. And now we're, according to you, what has that movement lost steam? Well, it's not according to me, it's according to Nick, which is the firm which collects actual sales data from grocers directly. That's the source you want. We've actually surveyed Canadians and everyone wants to buy Canadians. But what is actually going on? How are people spending money? So Nick would know,

it would be the only firm which can tell us exactly how people are spending their money. And numbers are out for this winter from February to April. And my guess is that your listeners will be a little surprised to learn that sales for Canadian food products are up 4.4%. And American food products, they're down 4.1%. So are you looking at a shift of 4% essentially now, it may not seem like a lot, but it is a lot. I mean, we're creatures of habits, we tend to buy the same things over and over again. So despite inflation, everything else,

I think a jump of 4.4% is significant. Yeah. And I'm glad that that's the number, because when times are good and people have the money that will allow them to make any choice they want, we will default to the thing that makes sense. And now we're living in a time of scarcity in terms of the amount of money we can put towards grocery shopping. And the fact that we are we've chosen

I mean a little bit but still a significant amount we've chosen the Canadian product over the American product even even though it might be more expensive and even though we might have less money does speak to sort of a So that that that national imperative that we were all called to answer No, exactly. And so so I do think that that that national imperative that we were all called to answer. No, exactly. And so so I do think that that the by Canadian campaign is was successful and frankly important for all of us. It was kind of therapy. It felt like a candidate parade every day at the grocery store. The challenge right now is that, well, you know, there are artifacts and artifacts tend

to disappear. Even though they're there, you don't see them as much as you used to. Yeah, they blend in the background. Exactly. We need to give Canadians different reasons to buy Canadian other than, well, I don't like that new tenant at the White House. Exactly. I mean, it's not just a hatred will drive behavior, but only for some time.

All right. Lastly, you know, we talk a lot about inter-provincial trade barriers, and I'm so glad to talk to you because, you know, you're reminding us that the patchwork of different drinking ages in Canada is in effect an inter-provincial trade barrier that maybe should come down. Do you know, Ben, why the legal age, legal drinking age in Ontario is 19 and not 18? No, no.

I mean, I know the story in the United States as to why Louisiana had an 18 drinking age and everyone else is 21, but don't know the Canadian story. It's because of grade 13. And grade 13 doesn't exist anymore. Interesting. And so you have three provinces where the legal drinking age is 18, so Quebec, Manitoba

and Alberta. Everyone else is 19. And to be honest, most people listening to us right now say, well, who cares? It's not a priority. Actually, if you talk to companies, if you talk to investors looking at Canada, other than India, we are the only country in the world where we have several different drinking legal age within the same country. Yeah. And when you look at provinces like Ontario that have so many municipalities that are butting up against Quebec, there's a microcosm of that friction

happening in real time. Absolutely. So it's only a year difference. But at the same time, if you think nationally, it becomes a bit of a problem. And so since we're talking about inter-provincial trade barriers, if we're thinking about selling beer in convenience stores, and we're thinking about selling beer in a convenience stores and we're thinking of allowing alcohol

products to be sold everywhere across the country, why not tackle the issue of, of the legal drinking age, which is a little ridiculous, as far as I'm concerned, I've always wondered why we have different rules in different provinces. Well, I mean, listen, I think highlighting it is the first step in having the conversation. But I've said many times on this show that Ontario has the most dysfunctional relationship

with alcohol in the country. This crazy, precious. Because you grew up in Quebec, Ben. Yeah, but the fact that, I mean, between the LCBO and the beer store and treating people like they are children. And when I say something like that, I get pushback from people saying, oh, you're just, you know, you want people drinking and driving,

which is absolutely not the case. It's such a ludicrous statement on its face. I think it's changing in Ontario. I think the mindset is slowly changing thanks to multiculturalism, people coming from all the world with different mindsets. It's great. Well, thank you, Sylvain. I want to thank you for highlighting these three important stories. I always love talking to you on the show and we'll talk again soon.

Take care. Bye-bye. At Desjardins Insurance, we know that when you are a building contractor, your company's foundation needs to be strong. That's why our agents go the extra mile to understand your business and provide tailored solutions for all its unique needs. You put your heart into your company, so we put our heart into making sure it's protected. Get insurance that's really big on care.

Find an agent today at desjardins.com slash business coverage. Whether it's a family member, friend or furry companion joining your summer road trip, enjoy the peace of mind that comes with Volvo's legendary safety. During Volvo Discover Days, enjoy limited time savings as you make plans to cruise through Muskoka or down Toronto's bustling streets. From now until June 30, Lisa 2025 Volvo XC 60 from 1.74% and save up to $4,000 condition supply. This is your GTA Volvo retailer or go to Volvo cars.ca for full details. Well, welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show. And of course, we are at the birth of AI. And just a few years ago, it was

something that we were talking about as something that could be disruptive. And now we're living in the middle of it where those who know how to leverage it are improving and optimizing their work, optimizing their lives. But there will be full blown revolutions in certain industries, certain sectors, and those revolutions will inevitably come with contractions in the, on the human side of the job equation. There are certain jobs that will be done by AI. They're currently being done by human beings. And when I say will, it could be right around the corner. We are already experiencing that impact to a certain extent.

And so to talk about this really important topic, we're joined by somebody who has been living and breathing and colliding with AI every single day. And we're talking, of course, of a great friend of the show, Mohit Rajans from thinkstart.ca. Mohit, what, I'm sorry, I just gave sort of the lay of the land. Did I get anything wrong in my intro? No, you know, you actually, it's funny, right? Because the conversation always sparks more conversations. On one hand, we're talking about the general term of artificial intelligence, but over the past two years, you and I are the type of people that have seen a change

and morph into so many different parts of conversations that are both relative and important to pay attention to. All right, so there's a couple of stories that we're talking about, because there is new data. First, there's the anecdotal stuff, right? We hear about the anecdotes, but eventually the data comes to support the anecdotes. And AI is taking human jobs in places. We talked about it last week with Duolingo, the language learning app that is going full, all in on AI. They're eventually going to

AI, they're eventually going to cease using human beings as part of their language learning practice. And Shopify is also leaning into AI as well, which could see them shedding some human jobs as well. Yeah, I think the Shopify Duolingo ones are two separate stories, if you think about it, because Duolingo is basically coming to the point where they're saying, listen, language models are actually making it easier for people to be able to learn languages. And so they're going to be able to expand in their offerings in ways that humans will not necessarily be needed. That's one story. But the Shopify thing that I found interesting, Ben, was that it's less about them saying, we want to replace things with AI. They're saying basically, listen, come to us with what you think AI can't do. And then we'll think of how the human can actually make that happen.

And fortunately, I think that's a little bit of a better approach because right now we've seen a lot of middle management sort of sit there and wait for the right time, you know, to pull the chute or leave. So are you saying Shopify is trying to get ahead of the curve to ensure that if there is, call it attrition, if there is human attrition, it is minimized so that they can, like I said, optimize the human experience at Shopify. Is that their plan? I think that that's what the conversation should be more about based on what they're doing.

They've always been forward thinking. I know they haven't necessarily always hit the mark from a communication standpoint, but I trust that if Shopify and the way that they started and the way that they were trying to stay true to e-commerce culture, if they're looking at maximizing the human potential by coming clean on what AI can do for humans right now, then maybe they are setting the standard. Yeah. Now let's talk about Duolingo for a second because I, when I thought about it for a minute, I thought to myself, you know, if there is one sort of category, one sector where I could absolutely appreciate why humans aren't needed, it's learning a language

because it's all based on rules. Like, and these rules have been set for years, for decades and centuries. If you wanna learn French, there are a set number of rules that you need to learn. And so all it is is AI coming up with quizzes and tricks of the trade and experiences within their app for you to learn that language. You don't need human beings to learn a language.

At least that's the logic that my brain has adopted. Which is perfectly fine from a user perspective, but also let's consider the fact that there are probably four steps ahead of what they were originally wanting to do from a product roadmap perspective. And if they can already see how their expansion is not going to be hindered by humans, then let's give them the credit. You know what I mean? Let's make them believe,

let's hope that they have a product that they think is foolproof. Chances are they won't succeed. You know, let's be honest, Ben, we're talking about two different ideas that people will have to eventually come back to the drawing board because it's not all going to be smooth.

Yeah. And that's part of the conversation here that we need to consider about the future of employment. Yeah. They're saying, I think they want to expand their offering by over a hundred different programs, but I just, I go back to it. Like if I'm interacting with my phone to learn a language, I'm already, I'm already like, I'm interacting with a machine.

So for the backend of that app to be supported further by machines, I don't know that that affects the end user, as you said, so long as they iron out the kinks. But look at human beings are fallible as well. So you're going to have problems in kinks anytime you roll out a new project, regardless of whether it is rolled out entirely by AI or by human beings or by a hybrid of the two. Okay, I got one point that might be a good analogy here. When you're making the stadium, you need a certain amount of people to make the stadium.

By the end of the three years that it has been in existence, you don't need that staff anymore on standby. So maybe that's what we're looking at when it comes to the future of this technology. Yeah, yeah, building it out with human beings. And then once you've built it out, there you go. Then you let the AI run the thing. But if that becomes the rule moving forward,

then yeah, you're gonna have people horned out of jobs naturally. Now, let's move on to, that's sort of the world as we see it today. Let's move on to the world as it may become, because there's a story in the Toronto Sun about a potential massive job losses in the United States due entirely to AI.

So the AI firm Anthropic, the CEO predicts that AI could eliminate up to 50% of entry-level white collar jobs within the next five years, potentially increasing unemployment rates to 20%. Like if people can't get a foot in the door in those white collar jobs, that spells a terrible future for those people moving forward. So the two things about this is one, I definitely want to listen to Anthropic CEO because he's got one of the best products out there when it comes to AI definitely knows what he's talking about. But I think that entry level jobs are about to change and the horizon for what is considered an entry level job is about to change.

So what do you mean by that? So I think the idea right now is that if you put AI in every situation, you will obviously start to expose a massive amount of waste of time, waste of energy, waste of resources. But if you can start to build with AI in mind, you're going to be able to have entry-level jobs where what was an intern's job back in two, you know, three or four years ago could actually be somebody's job and excel even further with it, has the tools to actually use their education right away. Doesn't have to wait for a certification process

for three years just because it's time. That's the acceleration I'm looking for when it comes down to entry level jobs. I think that people are gonna be better prepared for some of the tasks at hand. And I get that and I appreciate what you're saying. My fear is it's not a one for one swap. I think you're gonna end up with, you know,

for every for every 15, 20, 100 jobs that are lost due to AI, you may have a handful of this new version of that entry level job. That's that's the big fear. What do you do with those other 85 people? We're listening, Ben, we're still in a place where we have email and snail mail in the same world. And if you think about it, when email first started, everyone thought to ourselves, well, there goes the post office, right? And that hasn't happened yet. So we're not unfortunately at that. Or fortunately, we're not at that point.

You know, you and I have talked about how we can buttress against misinformation due to the increasing, real false reality that AI videos can push onto our feed. This morning, I woke up to a very funny video of Donald Trump talking about cloning dinosaurs as a way of protecting the southern border. It looked real. Of course it wasn't real because it was so outrageous

talking about velociraptors and pterodactyls patrolling the southern border. It was ludicrous on its face, because it was so outrageous. Talking about velociraptors and pterodactyls patrolling the southern border. It was ludicrous on its face, but it looked so real that had he not been talking about those things and instead talking about something completely different, a lot more people would have bought it. What are we gonna do?

And in about 30 seconds, I want you to solve this problem for me. What are we gonna do to arm people with the knowledge that they need? this problem for me, what are we going to do to arm people with the knowledge that they need? So Ben, first of all, that's a big problem, obviously. I don't have a magic solution for how synthetic video is going to be moderated properly in the way

that it can spread very easily. But I do have a huge call to arms when it comes down to every technology company. Well, you got 15 seconds. I just really want them to come through with a fingerprint on synthetic video for us to understand what we're playing with. Because if it doesn't happen now, it's never going to happen. I love that you did that in 10 seconds.

Thank you very much, my friend. We'll talk to you soon. Take care, Ben. Thanks for listening to the Ben Mulroney Show podcast. We're live every day nationwide on the Chorus Radio Network, and you can listen online to the Radio Canada player and the iHeart Radio Canada apps. And make sure to follow and subscribe on Apple Podcasts,

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