The Ben Mulroney Show - Best of the Week Part 3 - Dimitris Soudas, Heather Exner-Pirot, Franco Terrazzano

Episode Date: May 18, 2025

Best of the Week Part 3 - Dimitris Soudas, Heather Exner-Pirot, Franco Terrazzano Guests: Dimitris Soudas, Heather Exner-Pirot, Franco Terrazzano, Dr. Eric Kam, Eric Lombardi If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! https://globalnews.ca/national/program/the-ben-mulroney-show Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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The Hot Honey McCrispy is so back at McDonald's. With juicy, 100% Canadian-raised seasoned chicken, shredded lettuce, crispy jalapenos, and that completely craveable hot honey sauce, it's a sweet heat repeat you don't want to miss. Get your hot honey McCrispy today. Available for a limited time only at McDonald's. Welcome to the Ben Mulroney Show Best of the Week podcast, including the most well-rounded analysis of the calamity that was day one of the new Mark Carney government. Enjoy. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney Show. Thank you so much for spending a little bit of your day with us. Yesterday was a day worthy of analysis and I think more importantly criticism leveled

at the Carney government after his performance in his cabinet meeting, which was televised by the way. I don't remember cabinet meetings being televised growing up ever. And I only see that with Donald Trump. And I also only see tax cuts at the stroke of a pen from Donald Trump, but sure, let's level those criticisms that Pierre Poliev. So beyond that, once the cabinet ministers

were able to scatter into scrums, almost every single one of them was asked some pretty basic questions and they did not acquit themselves very well. Here to talk about what all of this means, we're joined now by Dimitris Soutis. He's the senior vice president at Kavalia, as well as the former director of communications for Prime Minister Stephen Harper. Dimitris, welcome back to the show.

Hey, Ben. So yeah, chaotic. Is that a fair assessment of what we saw yesterday? It is a nightmare for a director of communications. And as you know, I used to be one. And a great prime minister once signed a picture I got with him. And he said, keep up the good work keeping the media at bay. His name was the right honorable Brian Mulroney.

Yeah. But you know, unforced errors are the name of the game from yesterday. Nobody forced these people to say the words they said. And yet, almost to a person, they put their foot in their mouth. I want to start with you, if we can, with Anita Anand, the foreign minister, who had some very choice words in terms of her assessment of the issues plaguing the Middle East. She almost unreservedly placed the blame on Israel with almost nothing to say about Hamas.

That's, is that official Canadian policy now? Well, I certainly hope not. And she basically laid the blame on the democratic state of Israel and did not mention a single time the word Hamas terrorist organization. Yeah. And again, like the questions, because it was such a new, it was such a, it's such a new government. The questions are all very general. They're almost softball questions. You get to answer them in very broad, just definitional ways. And if that's how you're defining your perspective on the Middle East, I question whether you should be in the job.

Well, she also referred to the Palestinian Authority as Palestine. Canada, to the best of my knowledge, has not recognized Palestine as a state. Secondly, and most importantly, in this conflict, where does the blame lie in terms of what's happening in Gaza? You know, children being used as human shields, women's rights that this government has been at least pretending to be a champion on women's rights, gay rights, LGBTQ rights, they don't exist in Gaza. Guess what?

You cross over the border, you're going to Israel, whether you're a man, you're a woman, regardless of your faith, regardless of your sexual orientation, regardless of how you identify, you are respected. So that was for me, Minister of Foreign Affairs, day one, fumbled at the one yard line, something that could be so easily answered.

Yeah. Then you've got your justice, our new justice minister who, what we'll remind our listeners and our viewers that they, that he, Sean Fraser first said he wasn't gonna run because he wanted to spend more time with his family. Then with the opportunity of possibly forming government

again, said he was coming back. Now he's been given the file of justice minister and he was asked, how are you gonna square this really intense file that requires a lot of attention with your need to spend more time with your family? And he said he was essentially gonna work remotely. Well, let's take it one step further. Not only did he announce that he's not running

in the election and the election that just finished, the liberals actually went ahead and named a candidate. That person was campaigning and there comes along Sean Fraser says, oh, well, I changed my mind. I only like my family when the polls are bad. When the polls are good, well, maybe I don't like them that much.

And to go further, he's the justice minister for crying out loud. You can't run the justice department on Zoom or on Teams. No, no, there's this, this to me is this, that, that, that's all bad. But the worst thing that I saw yesterday was the new minister of Canadian identity, culture and official languages, Stephen Gilbo took an oath to be part of this cabinet and accepting a role. And he's wading into waters that are not his to wade into, specifically pipelines and the environment and climate change, putting himself, putting this government on a collision course

with Alberta sovereignty, which again, if he's the head of Canadian identity, doesn't isn't that his job is to promote an idea of what the Canadian identity is. And he's saying things that could tear this country apart. Well, unless he's going to put Canadian flags on these pipelines. I'll say this respectfully, it's none of his business. Yeah, but to add salt to the injury. He contradicted his boss, Mark Carney, one day prior with Vashe Kapilos on CTV, said three things, man.

Number one, he does not exclude the possibility of removing the cap on oil production. Number two, he said he does not exclude the possibility reviewing and editing or changing C-69, the pipeline killing law. And number three, when Vanshee asked him, do you support pipelines? His answer was yes. And then he goes on to say that the pipeline the government of Canada bought, why the government of Canada buy a pipeline? Because regulatory, the regulatory regime they put

in place, no promoter in the right mind would ever invest in the pipeline. And he said only 40% of it is at 40% capacity. That's false. It's almost at full capacity. What's even more false is that the pipeline that the government bought brings Alberta's oil to the west coast. We need a pipeline that brings Alberta's oil to the east coast. And by the way, on a podcast today, Premier Legault for the first time, but I can remember a Quebec Premier on a podcast today with Stephane Bureau in Quebec, but I just finished listening. He opened the door to a pipeline going through northern Quebec. C'est leaux in Quebec, but I just finished listening. He opened the door to a pipeline going through northern Quebec. Cécile, by the way, that I think you're familiar with. I am, absolutely. Dad worked long and hard in Cécile. But this, Dimitri, is again, a messaging

issue. And I want to tie this all back up in a moment with you. But he said in that same interview with Vassilis Kapoulos that he's willing to build these massive infrastructure projects if there is a national consensus. But the question that should be posed to him is, are you willing to be the leader to get that national consensus? And when you've got Quebec saying, we're open to it, we need somebody in Ottawa who is going to spearhead that to cobble together that consensus that will then lead to our ability nationally to build this.

And I don't know that we have that leader. He has not been full throated in his endorsement. I want to bring, I want you to put your communications cap on for me now, because now that we've given the lay of the land of the fires that all appeared yesterday after the caucus cabinet meeting, what would you tell Mark Carney in that moment after he saw his cabinet behaving like kittens and he was trying to herd the kittens, what would you tell him yesterday after that disaster? Are you sure you want me to answer this question? Yeah, of course I do. Why are you Chief of Staff? And why? At the end of the day, it's the chief of staff's job to make sure that everybody is on the

same page. It is the chief of staff's job to ensure that every single minister, number one, as you said, sticks to their lane. Number two, thinks from the page that the prime minister has written on. And his chief of staff right now is Mark Amendochino, former minister of public safety. Again, I will say this as politely as I can. He wasn't exactly, you know, okay, I'm not going to be polite.

I wouldn't assign a two car funeral to Mark Amendochino if my life depended on it. And I think that a new chief of staff is on his way in. Yesterday, you know, Mark Carney actually had a decent start from the day after the election to the swearing in ceremony. Yesterday it was a disaster. Loose lips sink ships. And yesterday the government, I remember Prime Minister Harper on our first day, the swearing in day, February 6, 2006, he turned to me and he said, Demetri, we will get criticized for this.

But we are going to control the message we are going to control the way the government runs. Because if you don't look like you're in control, you look like you're out of control. And if when you're out of control, you're looking competent. And my recommendation to the conservatives today is do nothing. Do nothing. When your opponent wants to light themselves on fire, just hand them a match. You know, Demetri, thank you very much for being here. I really hope we get to talk to you again soon. Thanks Ben. Have a good day. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney Show. I don't think there is a topic

that is more important for us to figure out in this country than that of natural resource development, because it plays a hand in so many other aspects of this country. I mean, if we can find a consensus on building pipelines, I think that makes it easier for us to find a consensus on lowering inter-provincial trade barriers. I think that helps with how we raise taxes, how we build our economy, how we build jobs in this country. I think that helps with how we raise taxes, how we build our economy, how we build jobs in this country. I think it helps us redefine who we are as a nation. So yes, national unity plays a role in this.

And so look, you got the prime minister who sits down with CTV news and says one thing. And then the very next day, a minister of his who has no business weighing in on those things says something very, very different. And people like me are saying, can we just figure out the plan? Well, here to break this down,

talk about that comment that we're gonna get to in just a moment. I'm joined by Heather Exner-Perot, Director of Energy, National Resources and Environment at the McDonald-Laurier Institute, also Special Advisor to the Business Council of Canada. Heather, welcome to the show. Delighted to be here.

So yeah, I mean, did you feel the whiplash that I felt after hearing the Prime Minister in at least some way say that he was pro-pipeline only to hear his Minister of National Unity or not, that's not the exact title, but Stephen Gilbo say pretty much the opposite. Let's let's listen to Minister Gilbo. On pipelines, people should remember that we bought a pipeline, Trans Mountain, and that is only used right now, about 40% capacity. So I think before we start talking about building an entire new pipeline, maybe we should maximize the use of existing infrastructure.

And the Canadian Energy Regulator as well as the International Energy Agency are telling us that probably by 2028, 2029 demand for oil will peak globally and it will also peak in Canada. So as far as I know, there are no investors right now. There are no companies that are saying that they want to build an East West pipeline. And as you know, these things are built by by companies. Okay, there are a great many things wrong with what he said,

not the least of which is he has no business saying them. If he's got he's not even in his lane. But you are the expert here, Heather. So break down chapter and verse, everything wrong with what he said. I would love to. And I'll just say, you know, Carney has been saying some good things on the campaign trail. He said some good things at CTV interview.

We know there's, you know, over 80% Canadian support for pipelines. So just to hear Debo come back, you know, we thought we had seen the back of that guy, you know, just absolutely triggered us all in the West. But anyways, let me break it down and why it's so frustrating. That first claim that trans amount is only 40% full is absolutely false. And actually, the latest see that we have is from March and it's and was reported by the CEO, they had 790,000 barrels going

through. Well, the capacity is 90 900,000 barrels. That's over about 88%, all over 80% full. And that's within a year. Like it's phenomenal that they filled out that pipeline in here. It's actually a little concerning because we're getting too close to filling it up and we're going to be in a position where we don't have egress anymore. But for Stephen Keebo, who as he said, this is a government that owns a pipeline. They spent $34 billion on it to not have any understanding of where it's at in terms of capacity, what kind of returns it's getting. And he was in a portfolio that he should have known this.

And I'll just say like then average person in Calgary would know what the South of the Tress Mountain is, how much capacity, how well it's doing, what the differential is doing. For this minister, like he's obviously not even curious at all about the pipeline or about the oil and gas sector. And I don't know where he got this data fact from. I can't even imagine where he pulled it out of, but just absolutely wrong. And we'll get to some more of the things that he said in there that I take issue with in a moment. But to me, the greatest problem with what he said

is, you know, he's the minister who's essentially in charge of, I mean, he's not in charge of national unity, but when you're in charge of heritage and you're in charge of sort of the national identity, the Canadian identity, that is a part of your job. And for you to stand up and say, oh, well, we're gonna have to agree to disagree with Danielle Smith, which is essentially saying,

we are gonna disagree with Alberta. You are damaging the job you're supposed to be doing by speaking on a file that isn't yours. But that's another topic. I wanna get to what he was saying about the global appetite for oil and how it's gonna peak in a few years. What do you make of that?

Yes, so he pulls out again, IEA and CR, that's Canadian Energy Regulator and their assessments. And I just want to point out, this is very easily verifiable for your listeners to go look at those EIA and CR are based on scenarios of what would happen, how we would get to 2015 different scenarios. If we had, for example, accelerated climate policy or stated policy. So if we all implemented all the policies, all the countries have announced that we might see a peaking of oil around 2028. But of course we won't all implement all the policies

and the facts since they've made those scenarios, the policies have changed. When you have right-wing governments coming into Germany, obviously Donald Trump, the United States, and the liberals all pulling of the carbon tax. Then all the policies that we had in place last year have already been downgraded. So even just based on that,

the IA and CRO have to, using their own methodology, push that data after. But again, those are scenarios, climate policy scenarios, not forecast. There's lots of real consultancies that do these forecasts and it's mixed. No one can predict the future, but usually they'll tend to be from late 2030s until beyond the 2050s.

And the US equivalent, the EIA actually has it beyond 2050. And so beyond 2050. And so Heather, like for example, when we got the news today that the number of EV sales in Canada dropped nearly 45% last year, would that, you know, when the government put together their mandate that every EV, that every vehicle sold in Canada by 2030 has to be an electric vehicle, they didn't consider this precipitous drop in in in in purchasing of EVs So could could that number that number means there will be more bought more cars bought that are that are car

internal combustion in this country possibly leading to yeah So we could see the the the pulling back of that mandate which could then alter that that supposition that Our appetite for oil is going to peak. Yeah, the rate of growth that we had seen in EVs in the Western world has declined, if not just Canada. It's obviously the United States. California, with democratic state government, with democratic support, just removed their EV mandate, downgraded it. In Europe, again, Germany has ran Germany's had ran up against fiscal walls

and removed all its supports for its EVs. Anyway, so looking at the graph, that graph has changed. The rate of uptake for EVs has definitely gone down. And lastly, what do you make of his comment that as far as I know, there's no private business that even wants to get into this. It really does sound like the Justin Trudeau line, that there's no business case for this.

Well, this is so what's infuriating is because they're the ones that have created the regulatory framework that would make it impossible for anyone to make money. There have been natural gas pipelines proposed in Quebec that they rejected Literally two weeks before Russia invaded Ukraine They rejected a natural gas pipeline in Europe Stephen Giebel signing that paper saying we reject us on the basis of Mostly climate emissions and so of course no one is going to build a pipeline under these circumstances And so we do need to see regulatory changes when we talk about the Impact Assessment Act. The emissions cap. Who's going to build a pipeline to add you know hundreds of thousands more barrels of oil when you

have an emissions cap imposed on you? Which means that you cannot grow production. In fact you'll have to start shutting in production. So just to hear that oh no one's interested in building oil and gas, well change the conditions that you yourself impose to make it more attractive to build things in this country. And that's my fear is that Mark Carney is new to politics, and he's going to be sitting around the cabinet table. He's going to be trusting that the people who are advising him around that cabinet table are giving him the straight goods. And if if you're going to get this level of call it disinformation, call it massaging the truth, calling it, call it sort of selective cherry picking of the data. If this is one of the voices around that cabinet table, I don't know what that does for Canada long term in terms of building our natural resources.

I'll give you the last word. Yeah. So, you know, just so we're not all adevi-doomers here, there is, you know, There is optimism about, cautious optimism, I'll say about the Minister of Energy and Natural Resources that was just appointed, Tim Hodgson. And he is at the cabinet table and he's leading the cabinet committee on building Canada. I think of which, Gui Bo is a member, but he knows the straight facts.

And I know he has the ear of Carney. So there's some cautious optimism that there'll be adults in the room and that the facts will be get to the prime minister and that that will sway his here. And I just have to say that Quebec Premier Legault. Yes, he just he just came out. He just said he may be open to it. That's a that's wonderful news. So that's that's a feather in the cap to build that consensus. Heather, thank you very much for joining us.

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that he was going to be the adult in the room that was going to restore fiscal responsibility and economic sanity to a country gone crazy. And then we learned yesterday, after the first cabinet meeting of this new government that was elected on this bargain, that there's no plan to release a budget this year. We're gonna get a fall economic update in the fall.

No need for a budget. Why have a budget? So to talk about that and a few other issues that came out of yesterday, we're joined now by Franco Tarrazano, the Federal Director of the Canadian Taxpayers Federation. Franco, welcome to the show. Well, I mean, look, you're exactly right. I mean, that was Carney's whole image to Canadians, right? He's supposed to be the credible numbers guy. But here's the thing, right? You don't have a shred of credibility on the finances. If you can't even bother to put together a budget and look like

Canadians have every reason to be worried about the state of our national finances, right? The government doubled the debt in less than a decade interest charges on the debt blowing a $1 billion hole in the budget every single week. Carney's election platform wanted to add hundreds of billions of dollars of new debt. So look, Ben, I'm worried Canadians are worried and Canadians have every right to be worried. And Carney is answering Canadians concerns with a shrug. Yeah. Well, something tells me though, when I saw that as a guy, the finances,

he must have opened up the books and taken a look and realized I need time to massage these numbers. I need time to spin this stuff. I can't like a budget right now would show people just how bad the mismanagement runs. Well, you know, Carney is the one who decided to become the prime minister, right? Like, if you want the job, then number one, you have to be at least transparent and available to be accountable by Canadians. A budget every year is really the biggest opportunity Canadians have to really know where the state of the finances are and to actually hold the government spending plans

accountable. Also, Ben, let's just be really practical about this because in the upcoming weeks and months our members of parliament, our elected representatives, are going to have to vote on spending and taxes. Well, how are they going to know and be able to make an informed decision if they have no idea where the true state of the finances are? Yeah. But hey, listen, Franco, one thing that we don't have to wait for is this middle class

tax cut because we got it with the stroke of a pen yesterday. Let's listen to Mark Carney talking about that tax cut. Canadians sent a clear message that they need to see improvements in their affordability. We promised a middle class tax cut leading to over $800 of savings for two income households. We're acting today on that so that by July 1st, as promised, that middle-class tax cut that will reduce taxes for the 22 million Canadians who pay federal income taxes, that that tax cut will take into effect.

We're acting on affordability as we look to build out this economy. It's my pleasure on behalf of the cabinet to sign this order to deliver that tax cut. You can even hear the pen, the theatrics of the pen. I've never seen that before. I've now seen it twice from this Prime Minister. I'm sorry, I've never seen that before. I've now seen it twice from this prime minister. I'm sorry, I've never seen it before in Canada. I've seen it, Franco, before south of the border with Donald Trump and his executive orders.

And I'm not the only one who sees that parallel. Even the CBC's Janice McGregor, who is loathe to criticize the liberals, if she can do so with the conservatives, had this to say. But this in essence is Mark Carney in a very kind of Trumpian photo. This is the second time now that he's done the folder and you know pretended it's a it's an executive order. In fact though, if you want to cut taxes in this country, the way to do it, would be through something that would go through

parliament usually. Okay, so listen, she called it as she saw it. Granted, she said it with a smile on her face. I think if Pierre Poliev had done that exact same thing, there would have been no smile. She would have referenced the Trumpian nature of it, which is accurate, but she would have done so in a far more disparaging way. But the point to be taken there is that was a useless piece of theatre. That does nothing

What does that say to you Franco about how seriously this government is taking very serious matters where in this instance? They yet again prioritized pageantry over getting things done Well, and look that's not a difference from the Trudeau government, right? And and Carney was supposed to be different from Mr. Trudeau, right? That was his whole thing. It's like, I'm gonna be different, I'm gonna be credible. But I mean, look, Trudeau, he was known for making press conferences, excuse me, known for making press conferences, not known for actually getting things done. And it looks like Carney is kind of a continuation of that. And you know, As it was mentioned in the clip,

that is not how an income tax cut comes to be. You need a form of legislation, a form of bill to actually be voted on in the House of Commons. Of course, our members of parliament are not back in the House of Commons, so there is no income tax cut as of yet. But Ben, let me just make a point here. I'm sure the Canadian Taxpayers Federation is going to be criticizing the Carney government for years to come on many different things. I do just want to point out that this income tax cut when it does come if it does come it's probably the best thing for taxpayers in Carney's entire platform right. It will save a family hundreds of dollars every year.

So it's not in yet, but it's probably the best thing that Karni has promised to do. I only have a minute left, but I really wanna get you on the record with this CBC story. They're eliminating bonuses for executives and staff, but they're gonna make a commensurate boost in salaries to compensate. So it's a shell game.

What do you say to the listeners of this show in about 45 seconds about that piece of news? Oh, it's a complete sleight of hand, right? Are they really ending the bonuses? No, not if they're increasing salaries, right? What they're doing is essentially giving the bureaucrats at the CBC, the managers, et cetera, built in bonuses through higher salaries. So from what I'm reading into this, they're not actually saving taxpayers money. They're not really ending the bonuses if they're giving them a salary top-up. All this really is, is the CBC trying to duck accountability and try to avoid a bad press day.

Yeah. Something tells me that you and the people, the federal, the Canadian Taxpayers Federation are going to stay on this story. Hey, I appreciate your time today, Franco, and look forward to talking to you again soon. Hey, thanks so much, Ben. We can't move on from yesterday because there was just so much audio gold that came out of that caucus meeting, that cabinet meeting, rather, the first one of this new carny liberal government. And to talk about the economic and fiscal impact of some of the words that we heard yesterday, we're joined now by great friend of the show, Dr. Eric Kam. He's an economics professor at Toronto Metropolitan University. Good morning, Eric. How are you? Benedict, I'd like to

invite you to the grand opening of my very own subway station. Gosh, are you paying 4.5 million bucks for it? We're paying a lot for it. That actual number hasn't been released, but it's a lot. I have to say, you probably think I'm going to come on and slam my employer, but I have to tell you of the many decisions that I have been critical of the people who write my checks, this actually isn't one of them for two reasons. Number one, I think it is really good advertising.

And number two, if we, I mean, we have a lot of areas on our campus that study transportation and things like this. And if we can marry those two things and possibly help this pathetic city's infrastructure, its ability to move people from A to B, then I think it's not a bad move for both sides of the equation. Well, we will bring you back on

to discuss that more in depth, but in the meantime, I want us to go to Parliament Hill. Yesterday, finding out that we will not be receiving or having a budget table this year. Instead, we're gonna get a fall economic update. To me is, I've got a lot of questions about that. And the first question is, how bad are the books really that you're not willing to delve in and tell us what the, what the state of play is.

But you see things a little differently. Well, I mean, what's going on, right? The circus is back in town and basically it's the same group of clowns, except for the one on top. I'm not surprised that they don't want to have any meaningful economic discussion right now because any discussion that they have is going to be so negative. And I, you know, took this occasion in the next 10 minutes, we'll talk about especially the housing markets, but I went and did a little bit of a deep dive into the

statistics about Canada's productivity, Canada's gross domestic product, Canada's ability to produce goods and services, and we are so at the bottom, Ben, not near the bottom, but at the bottom of all the G7 countries that by the government saying we don't want to talk about it, well of course I blame them because I blame them all the time, but until there's anything, a morsel of positivity, they're probably doing the optimizing choice by saying let's not talk morsel of positivity, they're probably doing the optimizing choice by saying, let's not talk about it. Yeah.

They want to rearrange the deck chairs before they invite people in. What was that? What was I heard during the election campaign? Same circus, different carny. That's the line I heard. And I liked that quite a bit. Let's move over to the housing minister. In our previous segment, we talked with a housing expert about the fact that this new housing minister, who did not have

a great track record as the mayor of Vancouver, making housing any more affordable, is now in charge of the national file. And according to our experts, he just does not have a handle on what the problem actually is. How do you see it? Well, I like Eric's name. He said a couple of things I agreed with, but if you really want to play economics, let's dig into a couple of killer housing facts. And when people hear this, they're going to drive off the road. Then I dug it up from 1975 to 2000, the average after-tax income in our country and the average house price increases were the same percentage year over year. So they can face. Yeah, they kept pace ready from 2000

to 2024. Housing prices are up 325% and nominal incomes 95%. So to put that into hockey terminology, we're losing 325 to 95. Contrary to what people are telling you in Ottawa right now, lower mortgage rates, Ben, do not solve this problem. In fact, they don't touch it. And you bring up British Columbia, if you wanna do a really quick dive there, they are worse than Ontario, worse. They

are the only province worse in their affordability problem. So I'm really glad to see the person steering the ship now is the one that drove the boat into the iceberg. It is so scary where our housing market is. Let me give you one more stat if you haven't driven off the road yet, right? market is. Let me give you one more stat if you haven't driven off the road yet. Right? Let's say you hold, and I did this, let's say you hold housing prices where they are now. Now remember, we're losing 325 to 95, but just hold them right where they are. No open housing prices. It would mean for the next until 2044 to catch up with incomes, we'd have to go up by 3.6% annually. Today, we're at zero. Good luck, Liberal government. All right. From there, we've got to turn our attention to Stephen Guilbao, who is

the new Minister of Canadian Identity, Culture and Official Languages, although most people remember him in their hearts as the Minister of the Environment. And he was asked yesterday in the Scrum about Canada's position, this Liberal government's position on pipelines. Here's what he had to say. On pipelines, people should remember that we bought a pipeline, Trans Mountain, and that is only used right now about 40% capacity. So I think

before we start talking about building an entire new pipeline maybe we should maximize the use of existing infrastructure and the Canadian Energy Regulator as well as the International Energy Agency are telling us that probably by 2028-2029 demand for oil will peak globally, and it will also peak in Canada. So as far as I know, there are no investors right now. There are no companies that are saying that they want to build an East-West pipeline.

And as you know, these things are built by companies. There is a lot to unpack there, Eric. Nevermind the fact that's not his file, right? He's not the energy minister. He's not the natural resources minister. Staying in his lane should be, it should be his mantra. And yet he seems incapable of doing that. Never mind the fact that his actual job

is about the Canadian identity, culture, and official languages. And he just stirred the pot as it relates to national unity by suggesting that a pipeline, which would go a long way to solving the issue of Alberta sovereignty, is a hot button issue. But he also contradicted his own boss, who spoke the day before with Vasshi Kapulos on CTV. So what do you make of this guy?

You know, they say that an idiot should keep his mouth shut. So you know, you don't want to want to remove all air of belief that you might actually be intelligent. Roy Green uncovered this guy months ago as being completely incompetent and he's done it again. His boss, Mark Carney, who isn't incompetent, that's another story. He's always talking about making Canada into some sort of energy superpower, but how are you gonna get us to be a superpower

if you don't remove all of this ridiculous legislation and rules and regulations that keep this from being profitable? Because I guarantee you, if this sucker was profitable, some private sector company would have come forth to at least do it or help the government do it. But right now we're so buried in rules and regulations that they make this not a popular decision. And by the way, let's not forget that for a country that needs business worse than life itself,

we've turned people away at the door in the last year who want our LNG and who want our resources. Contrary to a staples economy survival, we just keep throwing the playbook in the garbage bin and it's tragic. Well, and I, you know, fundamentally my biggest issue, so the one question mark I still have on Mark Carney, I wish I could ask him this question myself, is, you know, he keeps saying, I'll build a pipeline if there's a consensus on a pipeline.

And my question to him, based on now what I've heard from Stephen Gilbo is, it sounds like you are unwilling to be the leader who will build that consensus. It seems like if it doesn't exist, oh, you're gonna throw your hands up and say, well, there's no consensus. Oh, there's no business case. Oh, there's no there's no private sector interest. No, you have to manifest that stuff as the leader of the country. You have to put yourself in a position. You gotta go, you gotta spend political capital to get what you want. And the question is, do you want a pipeline? Because as the leader of this country, if you want a pipeline, you have the capital, the political capital to get it done.

You just have to have the will to get it done. Eric Kemp, thank you very much for joining us. I hope to have you back on soon. He has no will. Stay healthy, Benedict. Take care. Hi, I'm Donna Friesen from Global National. He has no will stay healthy Benedict take care Hi, I'm Donna Friesen from global national life moves fast these days and we want to make it even easier for you to get The news you need that's why you can now get global national every day as a podcast

The biggest stories of the day with analysis from award-winning global news journalists new episodes drop every day So take this as your personal invitation to join us on the Global National Podcast. You can find it on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, and wherever you find your favorite podcasts. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney Show. Thank you so much for joining us here on the Chorus Radio Network.

And we've gotta shift our focus from one portfolio, it was finance and the prime minister before the break. Now we're talking housing. Because don't forget, yesterday was a big cabinet meeting, the first cabinet meeting of this new Mark Carney liberal government. And after it ended, everyone came out and scrummed with the media. So we've got snippets from all sorts of people and we are going to be enjoying those tasty morsels over the course of the Ben Mulroney show. So the new housing minister, Gregor Robertson, formerly mayor of Vancouver,

already had a target on his back because when he was mayor, housing in Vancouver skyrocketed and affordability went out the window, out the window of a house most people can't own. And so yesterday he was scrumming with the media and he said something that will play for you right now that set off a firestorm. Now I think that we need to deliver more supply, make sure the market is stable, it's a huge part of our economy. We need to be delivering more affordable housing.

The government of Canada has not been building affordable housing since the 90s, and we've created a huge shortage across Canada. That's where the big need is right now. And I'm very encouraged that the Prime Minister and our commitment right now in government is the double construction and focus on the affordable side. All right, not for nothing. If the government hasn't been building affordable housing since the 90s, who's been in power for most of that time? Answer that question and you'll know my opinion. But that's neither here nor there. One of the people who did react yesterday

to that comment and to much more is my next guest, Eric Lombardi. He's the founder and president of More Neighbors Toronto. It's a volunteer organization committed to ending the housing crisis. Eric, welcome to the show. Hey, Ben, thank you for having me on. Okay, so yeah, a lot of people taking issue with this binary choice, seemingly by the new housing minister between lowering the cost of housing and building more affordable housing. How do you see it? So I think there is some degree of, you know, luxury opinions that has governed Canada when it comes to housing.

There's this perception that, oh, well, you can just build more affordable housing and that will be subsidized by the government. And if it actually works, there'll be no impact to other people's equity. And that's actually just not how economics works. Right? to other people's equity. Yeah. And that's actually just not how economics works, right? So if you're building more supply both in the private market and through whatever government program, the goal of that new supply is to lower the price floor of new housing, which means you're shifting demand from buying existing housing to new housing, which means you will also lower the price of existing housing.

There is no way to achieve housing affordability in Canada while preserving existing housing prices. It just, the math does not. The math doesn't math. Yeah. The housing minister doesn't seem to get that. So I, like I said, I'm trying, I'm trying in this new phase after the election, not to be the old guy screaming at clouds, right? I wanna make sure that I have, if I'm criticizing,

I wanna be criticizing for valid reasons. But you know, words do matter as well. Like there's been no action taken on this file yet. So it's not like we can look to a policy change and say that was idiotic. But given the fact that Gregor Roberts comes from Vancouver, where they've had a terrible time trying to wrestle with affordability,

and he said this on day one, do you think that bodes well for the housing file, at least at the federal level? It definitely gives me pause. And I think what gives me even more pause was his follow ups to the reaction, which he basically tweeted about how successful he was in building affordable housing in Vancouver in that time. And when you know, people

brought up this contradiction, he basically doubled down on the contrary contradiction saying that, you know, people brought up this contradiction. He basically doubled down on the contradiction saying that, you know, they're not looking to bring down existing homeless places, but they're gonna be focused on delivering much more affordable housing. And it was like, did you get nothing? Right? Like, and, you know, I think the other thing

that was, you know, a bit shocking for people as well, you know, I won't comment on, you know I think the other thing that was you know a bit shocking for people as well you know I won't comment on you know how taxfully he managed it but you know I'd say Nate Erickson Smith was actually a fairly popular um minister for that role and for those who had spoken with him and worked with him in that short period of time his demonstration of understanding of the issue Yeah, was really quite strong. And so to have him replaced by I'm a former Vancouver mayor with a pretty poor track record who's already kind of going back to the you know You know 2018 version of you know liberal attitudes about housing really does feel like a step backwards.

Yes, the Prime Minister has an agenda that they set out in their platform, but it is actually important that the minister responsible for the portfolio has, in my opinion, a fundamental understanding of what the challenges they're trying to solve for are. And that's not very clear to me that that it does not seem like that's true. So let's go down the rabbit hole, Eric. Let's assume that this minister has blinders on and will pursue policies in line with what he said yesterday, right? And the vision that he wants to enact is what he described yesterday. What does the future look like if that's the policy moving forward?

You know, I think on housing, there are really two paths forward, but either way, we need to be honest about what that path is. Path one is, you know, deliberate action to build enough supply that prices come down. This means that people's expectations to the equity value of their home is going to need to come down. And that means we need to also talk about solutions to the people who are frankly left holding a bag

that we are creating deliberately through government policy. The second path is we want to see how a stable housing market, which means prices aren't going to come down, and that means everyone who has been shut out by the dramatic escalation in costs needs help, right? And if we're not able to actually say what the goals are reality based, we're not going to have the conversation about how to deal with the fallout for those who are most impacted by it. And that's actually what scares me the most is that we have this ambiguity in what the actual goal of the pack board is.

Yeah, I don't want to be alarmist, but is it possible that things, you know, this terrible situation that we're living in and this terrible lack of supply and inaccessibility and insecurity, could it get worse? Of course, it could get worse. Great. I mean, in my mind, right, and I think we don't talk about this enough, the difference between a developed country and a prosperous one and a developing country is the quality of housing that local incomes can buy you. And to the extent that we've seen a major deterioration in what material well-being

can be afforded at typical incomes in Canada is actually a sign of like backwards development. And so we don't even really have the right attitude towards what goals for housing should be, which is on an ongoing basis to raise the living standards of the people living in Canada, in my opinion. And so, you know, that goal is diametrically opposed to the high costs of housing. And so there needs to be a different attitude shift. And if we don't see that, what we're going to see happen to our economy in the near term is what I would refer to as the utilization of our economy, which means if you were born to a wealthy family, Toronto,

Vancouver will still be decent cities for you to live in, will have a service class of relatively poor, materially people who serve a relatively wealthy property-owning class in perpetuity. But over time that will hollow out our economy, talent and people will move to jurisdictions that reward them better for the incomes that they make in terms of their material wellbeing, and we'll all suffer in the end.

Well, yeah, and you know, I wish I could say I haven't heard that before, but the fact is we heard it during the election campaign when the government released its own worst case scenario of what Canada could look like in the future. And you're describing something very similar to that. Eric, I want to thank you so much for joining us. Housing is going to be a very important conversation here on the Ben Mulroney Show for the duration of this show. So I hope you'll join us again soon.

Of course. Thank you so much, Ben. Thanks for listening to the Ben Mulready Show podcast. We're live every day nationwide on the Chorus Radio Network and you can listen online through the Radio Canada player and the iHeart Radio Canada apps. And make sure to follow and subscribe on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your streaming audio.

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