The Ben Mulroney Show - Best of the Week Part 4 - Erin O'Toole, Regan Watts, Sharan Kaur

Episode Date: June 1, 2025

Best of the Week Part 4 - Erin O'Toole, Regan Watts, Sharan Kaur Guests: Regan Watts, Sharan Kaur, Brad Smith, Erin O'Toole, Dr. Oren Amitay If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! https://globalnews.ca/national/program/the-ben-mulroney-show Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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As a more trusted, more secure payments network, Visa provides scale, expertise and innovative payment solutions. Learn more at visa.ca slash fintech. Welcome to the Ben Mulroney Show Best of the Week podcast. We had so many great discussions this week, including a great political panel and former conservative leader Aaron O'Toole joining. Enjoy. Welcome back to the Ben Moll Rudy Show. It's Friday, which means we unlock the potential

of this show with three great guests to talk about this week in politics. Please welcome to the show Regan Watts, the founder of Fratton Park, former senior aide to Jim Flaherty, Sharon Carr, political strategist and former deputy chief to the minister of finance, and Brad Smith, chorus radio contributor,

longtime TV host and all around bon vivant. Welcome to all three of you. All right. I want to start with some news that came out of Queens park here in the province of Ontario that Doug Ford has given every MPP a significant 35% pay raise. I'm, I co-sign that I think it's the way you attract good people to the job. And I want to hear what you guys have to say ladies first Sharon. Wow. I have been waiting for this day not for the race necessarily, but the pensions. It is wild to me that members of provincial parliament haven't had pensions. And I think I'm really tired of people complaining that, oh my God, how dare a politician to get pay raise.

I think there's always within reason or place and time for these things. And if we want to attract top quality people to come run for office and do great things for us, pay them a little bit more and give them a damn pension. Yeah, I absolutely agree. Brad, what do you think? I mean, the pushback that I was getting

this morning by callers was, oh, well, they should be paid based on performance. And what are they doing? Give themselves a pair. This is the system that we have. Well, listen, it's just just like what was said before, you have to attract good people. But at the same time, I mean, when there's a pay freeze, he got reelected the next day he came out and he said this was gonna be part of his mandate moving forward. Since 2008, they haven't had a pay raise. You can't have people, as Doug Ford would say,

working their butts off in a situation where when you go into public service, you are, you know, you're going into a certain lifestyle where you're giving up a lot with your family life and you have to be, and to fall on the pension thing, the fact of the matter that they didn't have a pension and the people are going crazy about this is just asinine to me because you have to set up is six years enough? Yes, because your public life is now going to be serving the people of Ontario and the mayor of Toronto,

I'm sorry to say this, cannot make more than the premier of Ontario. That is just. Hey, Regan, I want your take on this as well, because so I came out full-throated endorsement of this idea. I think it's a great idea. However, I think that the next decision has to be to right size the cabinet, because a lot of those guys, we have one of the biggest cabinets in the province of Ontario. And one of the reasons was, he tried to, the Premier was trying to sort of reverse

engineer pay raises for a lot of people. So some interesting comments, Ben, and I have to say, I, I, I agree with both Sharon in, in Brad, um, you know, I'll start with a historic fact with the rest of my comments, which is to say people need to remember that eliminating pensions was a ridiculously dumb move by Mike Harris when he was premier. And it was posturing at its best. And I'm glad to see this last vestige of the Harris era gone

because it was stupid when they did it the first time. That's the first thing I wanna say. Second thing I wanna say is I think, and Sharon and I have worked in politics and Brad I know has been around politics for a little while. Political people who serve in high office, they are 95% of them sociopaths in some way shape or form or grade. Some are low grade sociopaths, others are high grade sociopaths, but you have to have a sociopathic tendency to serve. And if we're going to have good people

step up, you're going to have to remunerate them in some capacity. There is a deferred compensation element, having really great people, for example, like Tim Hodgson, who's the new energy minister, extraordinarily qualified and capable guy, there has to be something in it for these guys, because it's deferred compensation. And I think it's a I think it's a good move from the province. And I support it wholeheartedly. You know, what I do think though, and Brad made an interesting comment about the mayor of Toronto, you know, Ben, I saw some Twitter commentary yesterday around you and people saying you

should run for Mayor and things like that. I look, I think we need good people to run for Mayor of Toronto and if I'm going to channel my friend Brad and some of his previous work, you know, I think the city needs good people like you and to step up and it's crazy to me that the Mayor of Toronto makes more than the Premier and certain cabinet ministers. So, you know, to paraphrase Brad, will you accept this rose, please, and run for mayor of Toronto on behalf of the citizens. Oh my God. Okay, guys, this is not the conversation we're having today. Qualified. This is not the kind of people I just got comfortable in this seat.

Qualified. Look at me. Take the rose. You are. You're level-headed. Take the rose. Okay. We're moving on here, gentlemen and ladies. Okay, I wanna talk about some comments made by the Quebec immigration minister, who wants to relegate multiculturalism

to the quote dustbin of history. So there's a new law before the Assemblée nationale in Quebec that wants to signal to immigrants that they are arriving in a state with its own model of integration. They must accept Quebec social contract, which is based on values such as democracy, the French language, gender equality and secularism.

And if they don't like it, maybe they shouldn't come to Quebec. Now, is this Quebec being Quebec Sharon, or do they have a point, no matter how uncomfortable the discussion makes people we are currently embroiled in a re-examination of our relationship with multiculturalism with new Canadians what it means to be Canadian we have to get to a place where we rebuild that consensus in broadly in Canada so what do you make of this opening salvo in a larger discussion so I'm going to preface this by saying I'm really glad that you don't have the text board open right now because when I say this, I'm sure some listeners are going to lose their

marbles. But I'm going to start by saying you can't see me. You can hear me listeners, but this is not a tan. And I have some concerns with Quebec and their views on secularism because I find it can often be turned into a dog whistle for racism. And we've seen that with certain bills and acts. I really struggle with Quebecers who say that secularism is more important than anything else. Canada is fundamentally built on a country of immigration.

You can have a culture in Quebec around the French language, but it's more than the French language. They talk about religion being too front and center at times. And then you see bills where you can't wear religious symbols in places of work, in government places of work. So I generally am very uncomfortable with the conversation around secularism in Quebec, because I personally find it to be a dog whistle for racism.

And I've seen it, I've witnessed it when I've been there. Online, I remember at one point saying something against the bill and was essentially attacked for the color of my skin, the country that my family is from and told never to walk in there. And I know that is not the view of all Quebecers, but I have a problem with this. And that is a fair point. But Regan, can we not take this position that they have taken

as an opening, as an opening for a broader conversation about what we as Canadians need to do? Well, look, I think the multicultural issue is, it's a hot potato politically. I'm with Sharon when she talks about Canada being a nation of immigrants. And certainly the two nationalities, deux nationales, as the Montrealers on this panel will recognize, right? Canada was built on two solitudes of English and French. And I am the child of immigrants. My father came to Canada in the 1970s.

I think that, however, and I think this is in part because of the long national nightmare known as Justin Trudeau and his crazy immigration policies. I think you're seeing discussions in Canada that are very charged around the role of multiculturalism, the role of immigrants, the values that they bring. And I think there's always room and there should be room to have a healthy discussion around this. But I do think the response from Quebec is in part because of political dynamics that have emerged because the immigration policy from the government

of Canada led by Justin Trudeau was abysmal and appalling. And so I think these are just, these are, these are remnants from the Trudeau era and as a society and as a civic leaders and Sharon is one and Brad is one and Ben, whether or not you're the mayor of Toronto, you are one as well. And I think we need, we have a responsibility to take these conversations with great care. Yeah.

But you know, when I talk to, you know, my friend, Peter in Leaside, who I think is listening right now, you know, he's of the view and he's a, you know, his, his background is, is European. He's of the background. We should have a different faiths and cultures in this community, but the Canada today is not even the candidate was 10 or 15 or 20 years ago. And I think it's people are feeling that. And I think we, we should have that kind of dialogue, but I'm not sure. Yeah. The back immigration minister's comments are particularly helpful. Brad Smith, final word to you. No worries. I have a simple thing. When I, it always comes to immigration. If you're leaving a place and coming to a new place,

you're leaving to come to a new life. And then specifically in Quebec, you have to, you know, adapt, assimilate, integrate is the word. You have to be able to bring your own culture and bring your own experiences, but that's where we meet halfway. You have to adopt to the French language because it's part of their and just like the rest of Canada, if you're coming and leaving a place to come to Canada to have a better life, integration should be primary on your focus. Yeah, I think I'm choosing to view it as look, the immigration consensus is broken. Let's use it as an opportunity to reinvent it in a way that will build nationalism in a way that works for the 21st century Canada that we're trying to build.

Welcome back to the Ben Mulvary Show and welcome back to my This Week in Politics panel made up of Regan Watts, Sharon Carr and Brad Smith. We're going to talk healthcare next guys. It always amazes me that this this allimportant institution of Canadian healthcare that defines us in a lot of ways, in poll after poll, people feel that this institution is defining what it means to be Canadian. If it's so important to people, why does the discussion on how to fix it

begin and end in most circles with, throw more money at the problem, like that's it. And now we see, if you want to compare and contrast and look for best practices around the world, harken your gaze over to the universal healthcare model in Switzerland, where they pay about the same amount and most if not all of their outcomes are better. They've got more doctors, they've got less wait times,

and they've got more nurses. And I want to get your opinion, Sharon, on what do we need to do in this country to have a grown-up discussion about how we can solve the issues that ail our healthcare system? Oh, there's so many things that need to be done. And I think going through COVID-19

and seeing the strain on the system, I think it's been a bit of a wake-up call. I think there are a number of things. We have to look at the spending, first system, I think it's been a bit of a wake-up call. I think there's a number of things. We have to look at the spending, first of all, of what's going into the healthcare system and how can we make that better so that it is about patient care and access.

We also need to get rid of barriers so that doctors can practice across different provinces, doctors from countries who are, I would say, in similar training to Canada. Like for me, it should be completely normal for anyone who has studied in the US or the UK or whichever jurisdiction to be able to come into Canada easily and practice here and the same should go for nurses. We need to make it, we need to give them the incentive but we have to remove the barriers and we have to take the politics out of it. Our healthcare system for far too long, I think has degraded to a place where there is burnout,

there is a lack of access. People don't have family doctors. Like that to me is insane. Like should we not be giving people a refund on their taxes if they don't have a family doctor? I think that's a good point. But Regan fundamentally for me, we've gotten to the point where it's in such crisis that every solution should be looked at in good faith. And I feel sometimes we get so caught up on the single payer aspect of the system that we forget that that's actually a means to an end,

the end being universal high quality health care for all. And we anytime somebody does anything that somebody thinks is going to remove or dilute the single payer system, we don't look at that solution. Well, I have to tell you, Ben, listening to Sharon talking about tax cuts and listening to you talk about important policy issues, like healthcare has me purring again, Ben, and it's a Friday. And and I get excited when I hear this stuff, because I think there's a reasonable debate in this country and in this city to have. The Swiss system is not quite the same as the Canadian system. It is privately delivered and

privately insured, but publicly regulated and universally mandated. So there is a difference between the Swiss system and what we have in Canada. And everybody gets the same basic coverage in Switzerland. And the providers cannot profit from the basic insurance package. They can make money if people choose to buy more or better coverage. But that's a big difference between Switzerland and Canada. I think the real issue,

and again, I think about my friend, Peter and Leeside, when he talks about the healthcare system and waiting for doctors and getting healthcare services, it's months and sometimes years and that is not acceptable because we pay Rolls Royce prices in Ontario and in Canada for our healthcare and we're getting terrible service. I don't know what the equivalent, maybe it's a lot of equivalent of service, but we're paying premium prices and getting less than economy service when we go and see healthcare practitioners. And something has to be done. And I also have to say, and I'll finish

with this, I do believe the Canadian public is way ahead and has been way ahead of the politicians and policymakers with respect to a greater role of private delivery of publicly funded services. And because that's the only way wait lists are going to go down. And we need to change the incentives to get doctors, more doctors, because right now the system's broken and there's no incentive for them to do more. Yeah, I just feel that we can't have a mature conversation about this because everyone, the second that you start suggesting that maybe

there's a role for private industry to play in the public system, people get their back up and they start trying to protect their own piece of the pie. Yeah, well, listen, one of my best friends grew up with him in Montreal. He moved to Switzerland about 10 years ago and he said, Brad, it's night and day. The fact that you have choice, the fact that the coverage is regular, sorry, you can pick and choose what you want. You can go to different outlets to have it. There's two factors is one he said, yeah, you're going to pay just a tad more, but are you going to wait longer? Absolutely not. In Canada, the issue is, and the

big structural issue is, is why do we keep throwing money at it? It's because of the bureaucracy around it that we're just used to. And to tear that bureaucracy down and to reformat that seems like more of a headache for the governments to even functionally think about when in fact, you know, you go to any other country in the world and they go, oh, you have free healthcare, like you just alluded to Ben, and it's not free. People don't realize it comes out of your tax money. And if it's coming out of your tax money, almost to Sharon's point, if you're not getting a doctor,

like myself, who's been waiting for seven years, you should be able to be, you know, remunerated for that. Yep, all right, I wanna move on to just a story. I had to shake my head when I saw this one. And I couldn't believe that this is a conversation that's being had in the halls of power in Ottawa. But the leader of the Green Party, Elizabeth May, has signed on and endorsed a petition,

so there's no force of law at all, but a petition that Canada is committing genocide on the LGBTQIA plus community. This is, Sharon, is it embarrassing that we have somebody in Ottawa that's putting this forth? And when you're accusing Canada of committing genocide on the gaze of the country, has genocide lost all meaning? Okay, well, George, you better get ready to bleep. Because this

pisses me off so much. Because Elizabeth May bless her heart for being this kooky, kooky person. But Jesus put the glass down. Can we stop terminology and genocide? It's like, and I want to be very serious about this for a second. It is such like I have gone through iterations of my life where I have like looked and talked to legal professionals about how can we use this terminology. And it is so loaded and it is such an important term that there are things in the world that are happening that have happened historically that are considered genocide and to have Elizabeth May an elected member of Parliament who is sitting in the upper echelons of our Parliament

I'll be it in a corner say this is is ridiculous. It is completely ridiculous You know what we and it also does a discredit to things that do happen to the LGBTQ plus community We all remember what happened with Bruce MacArthur here in Toronto, which was a tragedy. Was that a genocide? No, it was a psychopath killing people. So let's stop this nonsense. And quite frankly, um, I'm like, we need to start the get Elizabeth May out of public office. Yeah. Regan, your thoughts. Well, you remember my comments in the first segment about low-grade sociopaths in public

life. I think Elizabeth May, thank you so much for reaffirming my point. Look, whether she is a neurodivergent person or not, the idea that connecting the term genocide, you know, and that is such a big term and it gets thrown around way too much. Genocide is defined as an act committed with the intent to destroy. Elizabeth May, just to unpack what she is saying, is saying that federal policy is designed and carrying out a genocide against people of this particular community, who by the way I'm a supporter of, and so to equate destroying this community

with federal policy, I think is beyond kooky. As I say, newer versions or not, it doesn't make a lot of sense. I wanna jump in because I wanna give Brad the final word on this. Listen, if you're talking about genocide, you look at any index in the world, and Canada ranks number one for safety

with LGBTQ plus community. Not only that, 2005 were the first country outside of Europe to adopt same-sex marriage. Robust laws. It's one of those and again, I've lived in West Hollywood in Los Angeles with a lot of the gay community. Everything that they speak of is going to Montreal, going to Toronto, going to the gayborhood and saying how safe it is. Not only that, but how inclusive the rest of the society is around the gay community. Yeah, well, and I'm just, I'm glad we found consensus on this,

because this is one of her first acts in gay. Last week, she was in the conversation to be the speaker of the house. High-grade sociopath, Sharon. Yeah, yeah. Hey guys. Look, Ben, there's also consensus around your candidacy for mayor, don't we?

Okay, and on the drink, Regan. All right, Regan Watts, Sharon Carr, Brad Smith, to all three of you. I say thank you so much for joining us on this Week in Politics. Have a great weekend. We'll talk to you real soon. And listen, we've got more to come. I'm not running for mayor. Instead, I'm going to tell you what I'm watching on TV this weekend. That rises to the level of importance for me. So you've always been picky about your produce.

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is made just the way you like it. Handcrafted cold foam topped with toasted cookie crumble. It's a sweet summer twist on iced coffee. Your cold brew is ready at Starbucks. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney Show. Thank you so much for finding us wherever you consume your audio. You might find us as a podcast on a streaming

app or you might find us on the Chorus Radio Network. Wherever your ears find us, we welcome them. Thank you so much. And look, as somebody who, in all fairness, does not know the entire history of Canada Post, my humble opinion was they jumped the shark last year when they decided to take advantage of the holiday season to try to get a better deal on the backs of hardworking entrepreneurs who depended on their service in that very busy Christmas season. That was my opinion as a guy who doesn't know the history.

But that is not necessarily the case. Our next guest would submit that they jumped the shark years ago and here to tell us that very specific story is Aaron O'Toole, the former leader of the Conservative Party, who played a role in 2015 in this very incident and he wrote about it in The Walrus. Aaron, welcome to the show.

Great to be back, Ben. Okay, so let's cast our regard back to 2015. Tell me about the stunt that you think changed everything for Canada Post. Well, I said that it involved jackhammers and jokers. And the joker in this case, the unserious politician, was Denis Coderre, who you know, Ben, was mayor of Montreal. But before that, he'd been a cabinet minister federally as a liberal and the Liberal MP and a colleague of Justin Trudeau's. He took a jackhammer in 2015, just before the election, that would see us and the Harper government lose to Trudeau,

to destroy the cement base of what was a community mailbox. And he had a hard hat on, it was a big stunt. And a couple of hard hat on, it was a big stunt. And a couple weeks later in the election, Justin Trudeau stood beside him and basically supported that and put in a policy attacking us for trying to modernize Canada Post. And what had happened a few years earlier is Canada Post had come up with a great plan.

Everything was gonna be about parcels in the future. The last mile delivery, people weren't sending mail. Billions of fewer pieces of mail, Ben. Like billions. Yeah. I think you've got a number in your piece. 1.4 billion fewer pieces of mail per year over like just a few years earlier. So they saw, Aaron, so they, the Canada Post, saw the iceberg that was the future and wanted to turn the Titanic and were prepared to do so. Well put then, you know, and even worse than that, Canada was growing, not as crazy in pace we have in the last few years, but Canada Post was faced with the double whammy

of having more addresses to deliver to, more homes, more businesses with the population rising, and less money because there were a billion pieces of letter mail. And they saw the package phenomenon. I said at that time, you know, 10 years ago, you know what this is like, people would order a couple things online. There was no Amazon drop-off every day that you see now. But so Canada Post saw this. Lisa Raitt was the minister at the time responsible for Canada Post. It was a Crown Corp. In fact, Justin Trudeau's father, Pierre, created the Crown Corp and made it self-funding, self-directing. And we supported this plan because we saw too this was changing. People weren't going to the mailbox every day unless it was on their

doorstep and it was mainly junk mail. So we supported it. They were going to change. I think they would have avoided this whole crisis we're in now, Ben. Yeah. But dumb politics got in the way. Denny Coderre and the Jack Hammer and then Justin Trudeau putting it in their platform in 2015 and that really tripped up Canada Post. So, you know, I agree now it's awkward they're pushing away more customers by by ill-timed strikes and things like this. So this is an example I wrote it because dumb politics hurt the crown for modernizing.

In December 2013 the Canada Post put out a five-point plan to get back to profitability and those five points are end doorstep urban delivery, transition all homes to community mailboxes, dramatically increase the price for stamps, use tiered pricing for mail, expand retail postal outlets and close many smaller postal offices, negotiate new collective agreements for labor, including lower salaries and shift to define contribution pension to limit pension liability and streamline operations. So pension to limit pension liability and streamline operations. So what I'm gleaning from your piece, Aaron, is that innovation and nimbleness that is required in these big organizations in an ever-changing world, those are habits that are learned over time. And had Canada Post been able

to get this plan across the finish line, I think it would have imbued that institution with a sense of innovation, a need to innovate, and a habit of innovation that would have prevented a lot of the problems that we've seen accumulate over the past few years. 100%. And the big controversy, of course, was some neighborhoods in Toronto, Montreal, old leafy neighborhoods like the one I live in now in Toronto, they had doorstep mail delivery. And so it was going to take that away and push people to a community mailbox, but 68% of the country at that point then were already on some form of community mailbox. So it was fair.

Everyone would have gotten Monday to Friday delivery, but they would have had to maybe walk, you know, 20 to 100 meters. Well, Aaron, unless you're a shut-in, unless you're a shut-in, you leave your house every day. So all of a sudden it just becomes a new habit. It becomes a new thing. And eventually that new thing just becomes a thing and you give it no thought.

I mean, had we been having these community mailboxes since then, there's an entire generation of people who would have just grown up with it at this point. One hundred percent. I lived out in the Burbs in Curtis and in Boltonville, Ben, and most families I knew at the time with community mailboxes would only check it once or twice a week maybe because you weren't getting the mail. So people's habits and consumer desires were already changing and Canada Post tried to say, yeah, we need to be part of this last mile, this sort of last to the doorstep that Amazon and a few others have perfected. And now you see with all the e-commerce, a bunch of private providers. So they really could have been part of that solution.

And it was, I called it the worst stunt in my little over a decade in politics with a jackhammer, a hard hat, and then somebody running for prime minister supporting such a stunt like that. But proof was in the pudding. Danny Coudere lost the next election and maybe it was a sign of what was to come. No, well listen, I really appreciate that you wrote this because first of all, most

Canadians don't know this and it's important for people to be held to account even after the fact. And the Trudeau government got elected on this stunt. You know, they promised us evidence-based policy, and in the face of evidence they went in the other direction to, you know, I don't know, gin up some anger against the Conservatives. 100%, you know, and the one mayor that should not have engaged in a stunt was the one mayor who had been a federal cabinet minister not many years before and he would have known from those cabinet meetings the struggle the Crown Corporation

was having to meet the modern times. But it was the most crass politics, we got dumb decisions. When I wrote the piece, I sent it to my friend Lisa Raitt, who did a great job at the time defending that plan. And it's just another example of, gosh, we could have had a better outcome if there was not some silly games played. But I wrote it because it's a good case study for us to learn and avoid in the future. I completely agree. I'm thankful that you wrote it because you've added context for me on this very important conversation we're having about an institution that while i don't rely nearly as much on

on canada post as say i might have fifteen years ago there are a great many people and a great many businesses that still do and because it's now at facing this existential threat that could have been avoided years ago it's uh... we need to know that this could have been sidestepped years ago so i want to thank you very much erin i hope you have a great weekend and i know we'll talk again soon they've never want to take the walrus for running it we need more smart

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truck month. Truck month is on now. Ask your GMC dealer for details. Welcome back to the Ben Mulrooney Show. It's the Friday edition of the show. Very glad to be joined today by Dr. Orin Amate. We've got some really important topics to cover, especially as they relate to the mental health of our youth and how we can best shepherd an entire generation forward into being the best versions of themselves. Doc, welcome to the show. Thank you, Ben.

Let's start with a really stunning and disappointing story about an Edmonton area youth, 15 years old, who's been arrested for terrorism-related offenses. Talk to me, generally speaking, not necessarily about this one guy, but how are kids getting radicalized at such a young age? Well, first of all, it's access, because, you know, unlike in the past, kids can go all around the world, so to speak, on their phones and their devices, so they're getting exposed to people who are just waiting for them. This particular person, I believe, is part of a ring that's led by a number of young people who recruit them.

And today's youth feel so isolated, disconnected, lost. And so if you stumble into a place like this where they welcome you with open arms, and we'll talk more about the procedures, but it's easier, it's easier than ever for someone to, you know, default prey to these kinds of predators. But Doc, when you say, you know, youth today feel lost and isolated, I mean, is it, that can't be, that can't be a blanket statement about all youth. I mean, there has to be a prototype vulnerable kid that these types of radical elements prey on? Well, for sure, there's a prototype and we'll go over some of the factors, but the fact is, none of these factors on their own will predict it, and many people don't have to have all of the factors.

Look at some of the highest functioning university students, some professionals, and they just as easily, it seems, get recruited into these, you know terrorist Organizations, you know, it's not everybody of course But they get whether it's recruited into an organization or they can be incited to do things that you know Like fire bombing and so on that we're seeing, you know, people can be vulnerable in the you know people you wouldn't expect can be vulnerable, but Overall the kind of person is more likely to be susceptible, they are usually the loners, they feel isolated from their peers, from society, even from their family, so that's one.

Mental health issues are almost always there. At the very least, it's low self-esteem. You also have low self-worth, you have trauma often because they feel angry at the world and the world family can be peers of school but they're looking to lash out. That's very very common. You have to understand that you know of course these teens when I say like you know these teens feel isolated etc well you know up until 25 years old the brain is still developing as we know. So if someone has this you know this malleable brain and they don't have the critical thinking capacity

that some adults have, they are looking for simple solutions to really complex problems, whether it's in their own world or the world writ large. So these places, these predators again, they offer what the kids think is a solution to their woes. And the number one thing, you know, and I alluded to it, but you know, and this is the blanket statement. When you feel that you don't have meaning and purpose in life, that makes you meaningless. That's the crisis that people go through. And kids can go through it as well. Like, what am I doing here? What's my purpose?

If someone offers you a chance, you know, for glory, to be good, to rule the world, so to speak, take out the bad guys, that's really alluring to a lot of kids. But exactly, and that is sort of the sticking point that my brain can't get over or around, is that this attraction, this feeling of belonging, this feeling of purpose that would be injected into a lonely, isolated child's life, in my mind as a parent would naturally and automatically and probably quite quickly and dramatically change certain aspects of my child. And that's where I don't understand how are parents missing the indicators? How are they missing the cues that something is off with their kid? And that's really tricky, because what I'm going to say would appeal out would apply to so many kids.

So I don't want kids to parents to be paranoid about this. But when you see normally when you see a dramatic change in a child's demeanor, their behavior, if you don't see them around, like, know suddenly they're gone, either way they're in their room the entire time or they're out at night and so on, you know that can be a sign but it can also be a sign of regular you know teenage development so it's really hard to know. But you are right, you would think there are some cases where the teens change is so dramatic you would think how could the parents miss it? Well a lot of parents, guess what, they're on their own devices okay? Yeah. Right and if And if you're in the middle of something, I mean, I see this happening,

this applies to any context, but it's so much easier to detect when you're not in the middle of it. But when you are in the middle, when you're in constant in this, you know, your brain's not programmed to look out for these warning signs and so on. So people have this tendency to explain things away. And I've had so many patients in different contexts say, how did I miss it? Whether it was a kid or a partner. Yeah. Look, we're not going to solve this today.

And we're not going to find a magic bullet that allows a parent to uncover if their kid is being led astray. But just generally speaking, Doc, is it, I mean, if we just talked to our kids a little more, I can't imagine that that would be a bad thing. No, it's not. And again, it's not going to solve it. And kids can be deceptive, they can be cagey, they can just outright lie.

But the fact is, as I said about this feeling of disconnect, of isolation, if a parent lets a kid know, I'm in your life, you may be the most annoying person to that kid. They may surprise you, okay, which is what happens. But if they know, no matter what, my parents got my back, that may be potentially mitigated. But parents have to be more actively involved, which is really hard when the kid has this device in their hand 24-7. And if they don't have have it they can find friends who have it yeah it's a friend you know with friends it's you're less likely to see a group of kids you know all on mass you know getting recruited into these terrible types of organizations so you know it at least if

the kids connected to other people that you know rather than the strangers on the internet maybe that might help mitigate the risk of it well you've dovetailed right into the final conversation that I want to have with you. And it's about a study that was done by researchers who followed nearly 12,000 children on social media. And they found the more time nine and 10 year olds spent engaged with social media, the more they demonstrated depressive symptoms

two years later. So we're getting to the point where the anecdotal evidence is being now replaced by data-driven proof that social media is not a good thing for, as you said, that developing brain. Yeah, no, it's terrible because, and even for adults, you know, this being exposed to things out there that your brain's not prepared for, or at the very least, this idea that everybody else is leading a much better life than you are.

They have money, they have friends, they have everything you don't want. This is called upward social comparison. For adults to do this, it can cripple your mental health. For a child to do it, it's just so depressing because the kid feels, what can I do? And again, it fosters a sense of being excluded, being isolated, being alone. Yeah, what I've found with my kids, and I'm going to ask you what you do with yours, but

what I've found with my kids is I'm never going to be able to convince them to get off their phones completely. What I like to do is give them experiences and time with me that I guess they would prioritize over their phones at least for a little bit. So we go to the movies, that's something you can't do on your phone. And we have time together that way. We go to a fun restaurant,

we cook something at home together that I know they're gonna love, those little things. If I can just get them off their phone for just a brief little time with me, we connect and they appreciate that there is a life beyond that screen. It's exactly what you're supposed to do, right? And you make it catered to their interests. You don't impose what you want to do. Well, it's a good thing that I like doing what they like doing. I have tasted movies

that is akin to a 15-year-old. But hey, Doc, we're going to have to leave it there. Thank you very much. These are really important conversations and I'm glad you're here to guide us. I appreciate it. Thank you as always, Ben. Thanks for listening to the Ben Mulroney Show podcast. We're live every day nationwide on the Chorus Radio Network and you can listen online through the Radio Canada player and the iHeart Radio Canada apps. And make sure to follow and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your streaming audio.

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