The Ben Mulroney Show - Best of the Week Part 4 - Warren Kinsella, Mark Mulroney, Nicolas Mulroney

Episode Date: March 2, 2025

Best of the Week Part 4 - Warren Kinsella, Mark Mulroney, Nicolas Mulroney Guests: Warren Kinsella, Tom Parkin, Adam Zivo, Nicolas Mulroney, Mark Mulroney, Franco Terrazzano, Michael Higgins If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! https://globalnews.ca/national/program/the-ben-mulroney-show Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Welcome to the Ben Mulroney Best of the Week podcast. We had so many great interviews this week, including our panel mixing it up over so many good stories. Plus, I was joined by my brothers and we talked about the anniversary of my father's passing. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney Show. Thank you so much for joining us. It's that time of the week where we convene our This Week in Politics panel. Our guests are slowly coming into the arena.

And so let's welcome to the show Adam Zivow, national post columnist and executive director for the Center for Responsible Drug Policy. Welcome Adam. Hey, thanks for having me on the show. It's great to be here. We got Warren Kinsella, former special advisor to Jean-Claude Chrétien, CEO of the Daisy Group and most recent award winner at the Benet-Brieth Media Awards for his staunch work in support of Canadian values and in his fight against anti-Semitism. Congratulations on the award and welcome back to the show.

Thanks, man. Thank you. And let's say hi to Tom Parkin, principal at Impact Strategies and Canadian columnist and commentator. Tom, great to have you back. I'm glad to be here, thanks. All right, so let's start with the biggest story that we all, I'm sure, were watching last night, Doug Ford's Progressive Conservative Party wins snap election in Ontario, securing his third majority a win.

So let's start with the Doug Ford of it all. Three straight majorities. It's been 60 years since we've had a PC government, a PC party do that in Ontario. Three straight majority mandates. Let's start with you, Warren. Why has Doug Ford been such a force? Because he is fighting Donald Trump.

Well, you mean for this election, it would be the Trump thing, obviously. The ballot question was who is the best person to deal with Trump and Doug Ford is staked at that territory and nobody in Canada let alone Ontario comes close to him on that. You know even Merritt Stiles this morning or last night saying she's gonna work with the guy. So, but why has he long-term been successful? I think because he knows a third, as much as a third of his vote, voted also for Justin Trudeau. And he has not been a Mike Harris conservative. He has been a progressive conservative, you know, and the true meaning, traditional meaning of that word, and has worked for him.

He's pulled it off. And he's a different kind of guy than he was when he was a city councillor. And people have been surprised by it during COVID and, you know, during crises like the current one. And they like it. Yeah. They like the look and that's why they're supporting him. Adam, I, last night during our global news coverage, I sort of was musing that it was

quite a quite a masterstroke to, he was looking for a reason for this election and then the Trump tariffs came in and so that was the reason that he gave for calling a snap election. But it was quite masterful in picking it because if anybody wants to accomplish anything moving forward over the next few years they've got to get through the Donald Trump issue. All roads lead to Rome and all growth in Ontario, all issues have to get resolved after the Trump tariffs get resolved. And in that way if he positioned himself as the guy to deal with Trump then by default he's also the guy who can deal with everything else.

So I would agree with that assessment. And I think that his leadership in dealing with Trump over the past few months has been quite noticeable. But I also wanna build upon something that Warren said earlier. So obviously Ford has governed as progressive conservative, but at the same time, he's been able to effectively blame the Trudeau liberals for certain problems which mostly fall under

provincial jurisdiction. And so interestingly enough, he's been able to court centrist voters in some ways while at the same time play towards the conservative base when needed to. And you know, my jam right now, of course, is crime and drugs. And this is where this is seen quite powerfully, where we have, of course, an addiction problem, a crime problem. And many of the solutions here are under provincial jurisdiction. For example, supervised injection sites.

That's something which the province generally controls or safer supply. And Ford has been able to effectively blame the federal liberals for these issues while basically doing nothing to solve this and And is therefore been able to avoid a lot of flack here. I he's also been able to talk he's also been able to Call attention away from his own mismanagement of the housing file and and I think on the whole That has been a key part of his success mismanagement of the housing file. And I think on the whole,

that has been a key part of his success. Tom, traditionally when an election result is called, it's like tabula rasa, the fresh start for whoever's in power. And I don't become cynical until the missteps and the lies accumulate. On day one, very optimistic. And what I saw last night in Doug Ford's acceptance speech and Marit Stiles' speech gave me hope

that these two parties representing the lion's share of representing the official opposition and the government can work together. They said all the right things yesterday, both of them. They in fact, they were echoes and mirrors of each other. What did you think when you heard both of those speeches? Yeah, I thought I thought the March speech was perfect. Really was.

It accentuated the points where we need to stand together about Trump as Ontarians, as Canadians, but also said, you know, I'm disappointed with the result because I wanted to defeat him. I'm going to hold him to account and I'm going to defeat him next time. And that was exactly the message. And she delivered it in her typically energetic and personal way. So, you know, I think her best days are in front of her. Yeah. And this was her first time running as the leader in an election. Yes, and I think we just, I'd like to take a little bit of exception to the idea that this

was all the Trump. That is definitely the framing that the PC's wanted to get out there. If you look at federal polling, you'll see clearly that Trump's tariffs are very close to the top, if not the top. But if you look at provincial polling, that's not true. People understand it's primarily going to be the federal government that deals with Trump. Provincial governments deal with health care and education. They can do something about affordability and housing, those sort of things.

Those were the issues that were over and over. And I used a fair bit of polling through my company on this in this campaign. Those were the issues that people said when we when people were offered Trump's tariffs as an option to name as top priority, it was well down the list. So the record of Doug Ford did not get effectively prosecuted by either Mark or Bonnie Crombie. And that was because of the deflection onto Trump partly, but also because they had their own challenges

that they were trying to overcome. Crombie not having a seat, having this terrible vote inefficiency problem, et cetera, et cetera. And frankly, Doug selected her to be the opponent and then turned her very negative with his advertising campaign, knowing that really she wasn't the primary threat as we saw last night. – Adam, I want to look at the NDP and the Liberals as two sides of the same coin, or

polar opposites, if you will. On one side, you've got Marit Stiles gets 18% of the vote, becomes the leader of the opposition. And Bonnie Cronby's Liberals get 30% of the vote and just barely eke into official party status. That to me is such a telling tale of these two parties. That, that to me is such a telling tale of these two parties. Well, I mean, so what this would just suggest is that the Ontario NDP, their support is very concentrated in Northern Ontario and in a few cities. And that works for them right now. But that means it'll be very difficult for them to grow their seat count going forward

because they're not competitive in many writings across Ontario. Whereas Bonnie Crombie, obviously her inefficient vote has turned out very poorly for her right now. But what that means is that she only needs to increase her overall vote share by a few percentage points to start seeing a large number of seats flip over. Essentially, Doug Ford's control of the government right now a fairly fragile mandate because they were operating on voter efficiency, rather than having a commanding lead in the polls. Obviously in Ontario, uh, with the four government having a 10% lead, it's a slightly different situation. But I think that

right now the future looks quite good for crombie so long. She can continue to bang the vote. We have to remember that the federal government is not going to be able to do that. It's a slightly different situation. But I think that right now the future looks quite good for Crombie. So long she can continue to bang the vote. We have to remember that she grew the liberals to vote share by 25%. She went up from 24% to 30%. And that's, that's not, that's something that shouldn't be discounted. I think on the whole, they did quite well this election.

Yeah, they, they did. And we're going to talk about whether or not they can look at the election result as a net positive or they're just too many negatives to say we did as well as we wanted to do. So we're going to, Warren, when we come back, I'm going to get your take on Bonnie Cromby on the state of the Liberal Party and where they go from here. So much, much more with our political panel when we return, including, including where in the world is Mark Carney? That's next on the Ben Mulroney Show

across the Chorus Radio Network. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney Show and welcome back our political panel, Adam Zivow, Tom Parkin and Warren Kinsella. Warren, I wanna give you 40 seconds to tie a bow on the fate of the Liberal Party. Some good stuff came out of yesterday, some gains, but some pretty embarrassing things or some structural issues, you could call them. Three elections in a row where they finish in third place. Where do they go from here? Where does Bonnie

go from here? And then after that, I want you to talk about Mark Carney and the lie that didn't need to be told. Well, I ain't assuming a new democrat here. We need proportional representation. But I mean, you know, the Ontario liberals did get robbed. You know, they got 30% of the vote and 13 seats. The Ontario NDP got 18% of the vote and twice as many seats. But Warren, the Liberals used to thrive in this system. I know. Well, because, you know, I ran all three in the Guinty's war rooms. We had to get above a certain threshold, as Adam was pointing out before the break,

and we didn't, you know, this time. And so, you know, they need to, they need to deal with that and figure out how to build. But the problem they've got, the biggest problem, is their leader did not win her seat in a part of the GTA where she had been easily re-elected as mayor for a decade. That's a problem. And, you know, is it impossible to lead your party from outside the legislature? No. And you know, is it impossible to lead your party from outside the legislature? No, as you and I know, Barasa did it for a while. John Tory did it for a while, but it's just a bad look.

And it's not effective as a party. And there's people within the party this morning saying, you know, should we let Bonnie Crumby stick around? So there'll probably be some leaks and ruminations about that in coming days. In terms of Mark Carney. I don't get it. Don't fib. Don't fib. Don't make up your CV. It's like, sorry, Mark, you were not, you know, the guy at Paul Martin's side

when Paul Martin did what he did. And by the way, it wasn't just Paul Martin. It was Paul Martin and Jean Chrétien and the rest of the government. So, you know, Carney alienated every single Chrétien person when he made that statement in the English debate. But it was surprising. You know, I thought a banker would be all these fastidious about the truth. And that's his brand. His brand is deliberate. He says what he means and he means what he says. So to turn around, so I will not accept any justification justification says I misspoke or I

forgot. Those don't fly with a guy like Mark Carney. No, and the memes are pretty funny. When they're laughing at you, you know, you're in some trouble. Adam, I want to come to you because look, we've said before he's not being tested either by his competitors in this race or by the national media. As a matter of fact, there are people in the national media that are playing the role of his PR spin doctors right now. And so now he's found himself in a real crisis. Is he going to hide every time he has a bad moment because he has gone to ground? Obviously demonstrated poor judgment here and that this story could have turned out very differently.

So one thing I really want to emphasize is that, you know, Carney was not acting as a politician or a lobbyist for Canadian interests when he agreed to move Brookfield Asset Management's headquarters to Manhattan. You know, he was acting as the chair of the board and in that role, he had a fiduciary responsibility of the company, which to clarify means that he was legally obligated to prioritize the company's interests over other considerations. So I don't fault him for approving the relocation of the head office. He was just faithfully following his obligations and he could have been honest about that. But Tom, to that point, Adam, thank you so much for saying that. But Tom, to that point, he gave himself his own out in the debate when he said that there were problems

in the national economy long before Donald Trump reared his tear of head. And so he could have said, look, in my fiduciary duty, I had to go find greener pastures. The pastures were not green in here in Canada. However, when I become prime minister, I'm to make sure that no company ever has to make that choice because Canada is going to be where people are going to want to invest. He didn't do that. Instead of doing that, he lied.

He didn't do that. Yeah, that's, I mean, Ben, you, that's, that's the story. But that is the story right there, Ben. Yeah, I can't, I can't say it any more clearly. If he wants to take advantage of the fact that he's being a high-flying member of Canada's corporate elite and global central banker and all that kind of stuff, he's going to have to sort out how that plays. It sometimes doesn't play very well. We see companies now, major companies in Canada, now retracting on diversity efforts because they're under pressure from Trump. So you know these are the realities of running a large business, law firm, etc. etc. And so yeah, he's gonna get a handle on it. He also needs to get a handle on, I think, you know, both the New Democrats and the conservatives should pound

him on the fact that he's not going to disclose his assets until he becomes an MP. He's going to become the prime minister. That's a hell of a lot more important. And he's going to use, I guess, a loophole. We always assumed that the prime minister would be an MP, and so therefore the rules weren't built in a way to consider this possibility. But it's crazy to think that somebody who was earning a million dollars a year or more and that's obviously a wealthy guy and knows a lot of corporate insider, that he's going to be excluded from the rules about telling Canadians what he's invested in and whether his advancement of various policy ideas

as prime minister are advantaging him or advantaging his friends. What does he think is going to happen here? Yeah, no, but the fact that he thinks he's comfortable enough in his position that he doesn't have to answer for this, I think speaks volumes about the system he's running in right now. I want to, I only have a couple of minutes left and I really want to focus on a UK Prime Minister Keir Starmer. He didn't defend Canada when he had an opportunity when he was in front of with Donald Trump.

And he was in an interview with Brett Baer and was asked, he was asked for an opportunity to do it again there. He didn't. Let's listen to Keir Starmer and how he views Canada. We had a really good discussion, a productive discussion, a good discussion as a result of which our teams are now going to be working together on an economic deal. Our team is going to be working together on security in Ukraine. You mentioned Canada. I think you're trying to find a divide between us that doesn't exist.

We're the closest of nations and we had very good discussions today, but we didn't discuss Canada. That's enough. Thank you. Yeah, I don't know whether I don't know what to make of this. So I'm going to give each of you about 40 seconds. Adam, does this speak to Keir Starmer being a weakling or does this speak to Canada's reduced weak position in the world? I think it's the latter. So Canada and Russia have similarly sized economy, yet at the same time, Russia has been able to exert massive influence throughout the globe by fostering a dependency on its resources. Canada could have done the same, but we chose not to. We chose not to develop our

LNG. And as a result, the UK does not import any LNGNG from us but it gets 20% of its gas from the United States via LNG. We could have had an advantage here, we could have had negotiating power, we could have had leverage, we didn't. Tom, I understand when Donald Trump says dumb stuff about Canada, Americans don't think about Canada, there is a historical, there's institutional, there's monarchical relations and parallels between Canada and the United States. There is an element of me that is disappointed that a Brit doesn't get it. Yeah, I felt that that was a total stab in the back by Keir Starmer, a Labour Prime Minister

who should understand the value of democracy and would be standing first and foremost on that principle and not trying to, you know, trying to sort of, you of, it's almost as if Mr. Starmor wants to be the favored child of Donald Trump in order to try and avoid his wrath. I think we as the neighbors who have dealt with him a little bit now know that that strategy doesn't work because he's gonna, Starmor wants to sign a free trade deal with Trump? Well, we did that too. What's going to happen? So Mr. Starmor, I think is being a fool,

and I think he betrayed us, and I'm extremely disappointed in the guy. Warren, I'm going to give you about 40 seconds, but I don't think Keir Starmor owes Canada anything, but I think as the leader of the United Kingdom, member of the Commonwealth, member of the G7, member of NATO, a member of the G7, member of NATO, you know, a recipient of Canadian military might in two wars to the benefit of that island nation,

I think we did, we probably did deserve a little more. I disagree. He does owe us something. And Tom is right. Like Keir Starmer can go to hell. And for the same reason that the country is saying Wayne Gretzky and Bobby Orr can go to hell and 350,000 people want Elon Musk to lose his Canadian citizenship. Like Donald Trump is the litmus test. Everybody is being measured these days. And if you do not stand for Canada, if you're not an ally, if you're not a friend, like I'm hearing from Canadians guys right and left who are pissed off and they're fed up with people not standing up and defending us and allying themselves with

us. So Keir Starmer, he can go to hell. All right, Adam Zito, Tom Park and Warren Kinsella, thank you for a really great panel. Roll Up to Win is back at Tim Hortons and you've got a shot at millions of prizes like a thousand dollar Rakuten cash prize or a free Tim's coffee or donut. Play on the Tim's app until March 23rd. Rules apply Canada only. No purchase necessary. Visit the Tim's app for details. When you get into an Escape plug-in hybrid, you get the perfect mix. You can chill in electric mode, turn it up in gas mode, or get the best of

both in hybrid mode. Choose how you move in the all-in-one Escape. And right now, get a $2,500 rebate on the Escape plug-in hybrid and all 2025 Escape models. For details, visit your Toronto area Ford store or ford.ca. Welcome back to the show. And exactly one year ago today, I was at the airport with my siblings. We were on our way down to Florida because our father had fallen and he hit his head. He hit his head. And we actually had a conversation while we were getting some food before we got on the plane. We said, we're going to tell our mom that it's time to bring dad home because he shouldn't be in Florida. He should be back in Montreal. And that's where our heads were at. And turns out that God had other plans. And, you know, dad had put up a fierce fight for quite some time. He had battled

so many issues, health and otherwise. He battled me, he battled politicians, he battled so many issues, health and otherwise. He battled me, he battled politicians, he battled his way through a lot and it was time to stop fighting. And so tomorrow marks the first anniversary of his passing and I could sit here and wax poetic or I could bring in a couple of people who know exactly what I'm talking about.

Two better people I do not know and the fact that I'm related to them makes me one of the luckiest people on the planet, my brothers Mark and Nicholas Mulrooney. Gentlemen, welcome to the show. Thanks, Ben. Thank you. Thanks, Ben. So, yeah, where's your head at today? Because I know that not a day goes by that somebody doesn't say something that either reminds us of dad or or just tells us a story of him. So Mark, where's your head at today? Yeah, I actually I'm in a bit of a celebration mode. I miss dad with every day but I would say you know every day you walk through and I work in finance so I'm downtown and I'm in the

underground and I'm roaming around and every day you walk through, and I work in finance, so I'm downtown, and I'm in the underground, and I'm roaming around, and every day somebody stops me to tell me something that did or a moment that marked them where they were with somebody who has a story about them, and I'm blessed to have been born to this family. And Ben, the only correction I'm gonna make is you don't know any better people except maybe Caroline, and congratulations to her on her victory.

Absolutely, she's the best of us all. Nick, you as the youngest had the shortest amount of time with him. You had a great, wonderful life with him, but the shortest amount of time, there's got to be something, and I know it feels special for me, but even more special for you, that your memories of him are added to by perfect strangers coming up to you, telling you stories about him. And we didn't have much time together, but he made it really sweet.

Yeah. That's it. Yeah. And can we just talk about how he would absolutely love? If he were around today, this past year would have been catnip for his political instinct. He would have loved the American election. He would have loved what's going on in the Liberal Party.

He would have opinions on prorogation and the liberal leadership race. Pierre Poliev, the Trump tariffs, all of it. This, we would have been on the phone with him all the time. Yeah, not a day goes by, Ben, where I'm not driving back after work and I'm not listening to the radio, or, you know, when I'm not totally busy listening to you,

and there's not a day that goes by where I don't think about the things that he would have to add to this. I would think that the liberals would have loved to have been able to lean on him once again on all of these tariffs and possible USMCA renegotiations. I think people always forget, they always think that the parties are different, but Dad was the first person to give money to Pierpaulia when he kicked off his political

career. I think when you kind of just delve into it, every bit of this, right? And I think just to be clear to your viewers or to your listeners, excuse me, when you kind of just delve into it, every bit of this, right? And, and I think just to be clear to your viewers or to your listeners, excuse me, you know, they, uh, when you think about everything going on, dad was just, he just loved politics. Like some people love fantasy football and he knew more stuff about American politics than most American politicians. And so he would have just loved it, not because it's good, bad, or anything else, just because it is what it has been. Nick, is he a voice in your head like he is in mine?

Every day. There's no chance, actually no chance that his iPhone battery would have lasted the entire day with the current state of politics. Back in the day, he had us to control his phone lines. Yes, one minute, please. Yes, Mr. Mulroney, one minute please. Yes. There's no chance that he would have been able to handle all the traffic your iPhone would have had to deal with. But yes, he is a voice in my head every single day. In fact, when we are together, I often think what he would say to you, Ben. And when I'm driving to work, the words that

you utter, he must be hanging on. But yeah, he's a constant voice in my head. Everybody has leaders. And to me, he was everything. You know, I often say I don't speak for him. But there's certain scenarios where he was so, it wasn't predictable, it was reliable in his positions that I'm pretty sure I know what he would say in certain situations. in his positions that I'm pretty sure I know what he would say in certain situations. You know, Mark, what do you think, what do you think his position would be on all these attacks on a great Canadian like Wayne Gretzky? Well, you know, Ben, he loved to call people when they were at their lowest. I think a lot of people through the funeral, we heard about this, this moment, and he would have called Wayne Gretzky within 15 seconds of hearing all of this.

And he would have basically picked him back up and told him, reminded him of what he's done for Canada over the years, our greatest export and always fiercely proud to be Canadian. And he would have picked him back up and told him this too shall pass. And you know, we would have, we'll get through this, right? We'll get through this nonsense that where people are trying to conflate certain situations. Wayne Gretzky is great for many reasons. You don't have to like his politics. You just have to respect him for what he's done for our country. And he would have told them that and we would have moved on. Nick, go Mark. Yeah, then go. And what's, what's really interesting is here we sit in a world where we talk about a man that we lost, but he was an asset to the Canadians in this moment where Trump,

in this case 1.0, they were looking around the world and seeing who knew Trump well enough to go knock on his door. Brian Mulroney was one of those people. Here we have Trump 2.0, and unfortunately, Brian Mulroney is not sitting in his den in Palm Beach anymore. But we have this incredible legendary figure in Wayne Gretzky and he knows the trumps very well.

And yet instead of thinking about it as a possible, uh, diplomatic ally in the future, um, especially since we face this, uh, this existential crisis that the government has listed, we've decided to tar and feather, um, are one of our greatest successes, one of our greatest exports. And, and, uh, I think that you're exactly right, Mark. He would have given him a call and laughed through pretty much the entire conversation and talked about how great he was. You know, I hear these stories that you guys are telling me, these opinions you have.

He is alive and well in all of us, but that doesn't make it so that we don't miss him. Mark, what do you miss most about that? You know, I probably miss something that like maybe people don't even know about. He was a huge sports fan. Yeah. He loved to talk sports. He knew, cause he read every newspaper every single morning around the globe, where he listened to short waves. He knew the standings of all sorts of teams. I mean, I don't think anyone knows. Obviously people can assume Habs and Expos when the Expos were actually around and relevant, but I don't think people know that he actually cared about Notre Dame football more than he cared about most

other sports, more that he cared about the New York Giants. And he loved to know what was going on or tell me what was going on. We love to talk about those things. I think when people say when do you miss your dad the most? Oh it must be his birthday, it must be today. I miss him on a Tuesday afternoon when I'm driving home and I think there's something interesting to say and I reach for the phone and you know, he's not there. But that's more just because you just, just like you miss an amazing friend who, when it comes to parents, he only ever had our back. He only ever wanted for our wellbeing and for our best interests. And so that's probably what I miss most is having that type of person by my side.

Nick, what about you? You were the baby. You were his youngest. You were the only one of us born after he became prime minister. He had a special relationship with him. What do you miss the most? Just echoing what Mark said, you know, as a Boston college eagle, he would call me up and talk about, hey, did you see the Notre Dame game? And oftentimes would be, yeah, I actually did. Yeah, they had an epic win or an epic fail, whatever it might be.

But he loved that school. And one of the things, he actually got to visit it before he passed away and he talked about how special it was. So he also, the other thing about dad is he loved the underdog. Anytime you asked him about the Super Bowl, he knew what's playing, he knew the coaches, and he knew the owners, but he always cheered for the underdog. And so he loved the Buffalo Bills in those Super Bowls, but it was always really interesting. He loved the Tom Brady story, so he always loved the underdog story. And I think that in the back of his head,

he always saw himself as an underdog coming from Bakemore. That's why he loved those Irish kids in South Bend. There was something about it, but you know, I just, I really miss the steady presence that he had in my life. I miss how he always knew when I was doing something I shouldn't be doing and he would call me, but he wouldn't call me to scream at me.

He'd call me because he was a labor negotiator. He would bury the lead. He'd lull me into a false sense of security, making me think that we were gonna have a conversation about X, Y, or Zed. And just when I think he's gonna hang up the phone, that's when he drops the hammer. And God do I miss that.

I miss that. All right. I knew that when you were wearing something on TV that he was going to call you to come in. Hey, when we continue, I'm going to put my brothers to the test and quiz them on political quotes. Did Brian Mulroney say it? That's next on The Ben Mulroney Show. You sir owe the Canadian people a deep apology for having indulged in that kind of practice with those kinds of appointments. Well, I've told you and told the Canadian people, Mr. Mulroney, that I had no option.

Well, you had an option, sir. You could have said, I am not going to do it. This is wrong for Canada, and I am not going to ask Canadians to pay the price. You had an option, sir, to say no, and you chose to say yes to the old attitudes and the old stories of the Liberal Party. That sir, if I may say respectfully, that is not good enough for Canadians. That was the voice of at the time the opposition leader. It was probably the most seminal moment in Canadian federal election debate history and it was said by my father, the late, great Brian Mulrooney. Our father, the late, great Brian Mulrooney. I'm joined again by Mark and Nick, my brothers who are very busy men.

And it means the world that you would come onto the show and share some of your thoughts and remembrances of dad. Thanks so much for being here. Pleasure. Okay. So now we're gonna have a little bit of fun because dad was eminently quotable. And so I am going to read some quotes to you.

And you are going to tell me if dad said it or if dad didn't say it. You don't have to say who said it, but either dad or not dad. All right, so let's start. The first quote is, you do not have a monopoly on patriotism and I resent the fact at your implication that only you were a Canadian.

Did he say it or did he not? Yes, yes. Was that Nick? Mark. I'm gonna go no. Yes and no. Yes and no. It's a yes.

It's a yes. Let's play it. I happen to believe that you've sold us out. I happen to believe that once you... Mr. Turner, just one second. You do not have a monopoly on patriotism and I resent the fact that your implication that only you were a Canadian. I want to tell you that I come from a Canadian family and I love Canada. And that's why I did it. To promote prosperity and don't you impugn my motives. Guys, that is a debate. I don't know what we've been watching the past. Guys, that is a debate.

I don't know what we've been watching the past few days, but that is a debate. That is fair. That was a great one. Come on. This was a man who was tested in battle from the time he was in high school. This was a guy who took shots, body blows at every round because he knew it would make him better at his ultimate goal, which was to become prime minister.

That's what he wanted and he worked towards it. And he knew that the only way to get there was to be tested by the best. And he won it at every turn. And that's- And don't forget then that his moment as a labor lawyer, he would be chosen by his firm to go represent these groups. He didn't have a choice.

In modern times, you can pick your side of which argument you wanna be on. He had to represent these people to the best of his ability. And I think that really framed a lot of his relationships moving forward. That's why he got calls from both sides of the aisle on both sides of the border. Yeah, yeah, you're right.

All right, here's the next quote, you guys ready? Canadians and Americans congregate the world over on the least provocation. An inviting border has made us close and easygoing neighbors. The essence and the strength of the relations between our two countries are people. Our people naturally get along well together. We share our triumphs and victories

as we share our adversities. And when at times we spar, we do so without rancor and we work out our differences. Did Brian Mulroney say it or not Mark? Nope. Nicholas? Yes. Nick, I don't know what's going on here. You're dead wrong. This was Ronald Reagan. Let's listen. Nancy and I are delighted to again host an evening that brings Americans and Canadians together. Reagan. Let's listen. border has made us close and easygoing neighbors. The essence and the strength of the relations between our two countries are people. Our people naturally get along well together. We share our triumphs and victories as we share our adversities. And when at times we spar, we do so without rancor and we work out our differences.

I mean, Nick, Ronald Reagan was talking about the Canada-US relation, wasn't he? Because I don't think he's talking about it today. Hey, Ben, I'll just say one thing. You know I'm too smart to always bet against Mark. Yeah, correct, correct. He's won three 50-50s in his life. Yeah, every time I go to a casino with Mark, he'll say, sit here, I'm going to go win us some money.

And I sit down, I have a drink, and he comes back with a pile of cash. Every time, every single time. Every single time. Never bet against Mark. He'll say, go sit here. I'm going to go win us some money. And I sit down, I have a drink and he comes back with a pile of cash every time, every single time, every single time. Never bet against Mark. All right. Here's quote number three. I was a very tough report. Oh, okay. So this one isn't dad. This is a reporter talking about a relationship with dad. And I want you to guess the reporter. All right. This is the quote. I was a very tough reporter when Brian Mulroney was prime minister and he actually wasn't a fan of mine. He called me a kneecapper. Which reporter did Brian Mulroney call the kneecapper? Nick? I have no clue. Mark? Fife. Mark, you're three for three! It was Bob Fife. Here's a little more about that story. When my wife's mother passed away, there was a phone call around, I think around 10 o'clock

or so, and she answered the phone and I didn't know what was going on. And she came out of, she came, when she hung up the phone, she said, you know, that was Brian Maroney calling me to express his sympathy for the loss of her mom. And she said, you know, I can't believe that you were so mean to him. He really did make people reevaluate later on in life, didn't he, Nick? He did. He did. I actually got to speak to Bob Psy during the funeral. And let's just say he said some nice things to me. Yeah. Yeah. I know people I never would have expected to come out of the woodwork and express kindness after having had the daggers out for so long. That was one of the most wonderful parts

of the long goodbye that was his funeral, Mark. Yeah, 100%. And the truth is he understood that when you were in the arena, you shed blood. And then when you left, you could be concovivial and you could have a beer. Yeah. Unbelievable. Yeah. All right. Here's I don't know how much time we have left. We're gonna keep going until we run out. Okay. Who said this? I believe that it will be said that in the life of this country, the United States, which is in my judgment, the greatest democratic republic that God has ever placed on the face of the earth. Did Dad say it or not?

Yes, he did. Where did he say it? He said it in Washington. You got to be more specific. I think he said it when he addressed Congress. He said it at George Herbert Walker Bush's funeral. Nice one, Nick. And 50 or 100 years from now, as historians review the accomplishments and the context of all who have served as

president, I believe it will be said that in the life of this country, the United States, which is, in my judgment, the greatest democratic republic that God has ever placed on the face of this earth. I believe it will be said that no occupant of the Oval Office was more courageous, more principled, and more honorable than George Herbert Walker Bush. than George Herbert Walker Bush. Nick, in my humble estimation, Dad was, up until his passing, the single greatest living orator in the English language.

And you point to that as Exhibit A. I was alive for that one, Ben, so I got to see that one. All right, hey guys, before I let you go, there's one last quote. It is Dad. I'm just going to read it out because I think it's a nice way to end this. But before I do, I just want to tell you that one of the gifts that I think Dad gave us in leaving us was I think he brought us closer together. And I thank him every day for that.

Amen, brother. All right, here we go. Okay. Canadians have an obligation to help make the world a better and safer place. Not least we owe it to ourselves to honor excellence and pursue it relentlessly. Canada must stand for the best in all fields of human endeavor and we must be uncompromising in the pursuit of values that are the moral foundation of all great nations. That is my dream for my country. A Canada fair and generous, tolerant and just. And I honestly guys I think that's the perfect way given where we are as a country, where we are vis-à-vis our friends in the world. I hope everybody hears that and I hope everybody

finds a way to live by that. And brothers, Mark, Nick, thank you so much. Thank you for coming on the show. Thank you for always being there for me. Thank you for making our family as magical and wonderful and essential in my life as it is. I owe you everything. God bless, Ben. factoring processes because at Desjardins business we speak the same language you do business so join the more than 400,000 Canadian entrepreneurs who already count on us and contact Desjardins today. We'd love to talk business Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show and normally I'm a little apprehensive about doing stories that That could be viewed as me

taking issue with our prime minister as a father. Anything that has to do with this family, I'm a little reticent to do. However, when I was a kid and my dad was prime minister, a newspaper in Ottawa decided that they were gonna do some investigative journalism and reported in a little blurb that one day after school, I apparently stopped at a corner store and bought a couple of chocolate bars that cost me $2.50. That was the high level journalism that was being done at the time.

And I had to talk about it with my dad. Like that was an issue I had to bring up. So I think this next story is fair game. And if anybody has a problem with it, I will fight you. Not literally. I've never been in a fight in my life, believe it or not, despite having the punchable face that I have. So this story is that, okay, the average Canadian family

spends almost $30,000 on groceries. That was a couple of years ago. A year, that's $288 a week. Justin Trudeau billed taxpayers an average of $1,500 and $1,515 in household food expenses per week. That is five times more than what the average family spends. It was essentially $157,642 in household food expenses. To talk about this, what this means, what the nuances,

what the carve-outs are, what that actually comes out to. We're joined now by one of the people who sort of blew this wide open is Franco Tarrazano, the federal federal director of the Canadian Taxpayers Federation. Franco, welcome to the show. Hey, my pleasure. Happy Friday. Happy Friday. Okay, so Franco, I see this. And before I want to before I my head explodes, I have a few questions. So when the prime minister bills money, that amount of money for food and food related services,

I thought to myself, well, maybe that includes the chef because every prime minister has a chef, except there is a line item in the budget for a chef that makes just over 60 grand a year. So what, so I get food, what is food related services? Well, you know, that's a great question. Now there's a couple issues here. So this isn't talking about the chef, right? This is mostly talking about, you know, like groceries that are brought to the prime minister's official residences, right? Like Rideau Cottage and Harrington Lake. So

the best way to think about this is that it's, it's essentially groceries, right? Like Rideau Cottage and Harrington Lake. So the best way to think about this is that it's essentially groceries, right? Where the government spends money on the groceries and the Prime Minister reimburses a certain amount and the leftover is paid for by the taxpayer. And you know, to your point at the beginning of the segment here, it's a huge amount, right? In the most recent year that we got our hands on the records for, I mean, look, taxpayers picked up $81,000 of the total household food bill for the prime minister and his family. Now, 81 grand the year before that, $76,000. Okay, so this is a huge amount of money. I mean, you mentioned a couple things off the top, like this is five times more than what the average family is spending on groceries.

Look, another way to put it, we all know the prime minister has a very big salary, right? Four hundred and six thousand, nearly six times more than what the average Canadian worker makes in a year. But like, look, another issue here is twofold. And I can get into both of them, but number one, the cost for household food for the prime minister to the taxpayer has increased significantly over the years. Yeah. Okay.

And the second issue here is that there's a huge lack of transparency and a need for policy change. Well, and listen, let me, let me push back and I know you're going to have something to say, but we keep talking about this is you know more than the average Canadian being Prime Minister is not an average job right and so there are things that a Prime Minister does and meetings that a Prime Minister has to have and dinner meetings at the house that regular people don't necessarily have to have so could some of this inflated costs relative to the average Canadian family account for that unique

need that the role of the prime minister has? Yeah, let me just say two things because I actually think you bring up very fair questions. Okay, but two things. Number one, the prime minister is also very fairly compensated, if not even more so, right? So like not a single penny should be covering covering any personal groceries. As I mentioned, $406,000 a year. Like very well paid. Okay, right? So number one, cover your own grocery bill. Number two, is kind of to your point, but the problem is there's a complete lack of transparency. So what the government is doing is lumping in all of the

household food expenses into one basket. Yeah. And to your point, I don't know what that means. Like, again, there is there is a staff that has to be at the house. That's that's just part of the job. We're not going to get rid of that. There's a chef. You got to have that. Brian is not going to cook his own meals. So but but those things, I'm sure,, if the chef is a separate line item, then the staff is also a separate line item.

So I don't know what else is in this, if not just food. Is it booze as well? You know, we don't have a breakdown of the records. I would assume it's all of the purchases, right? That go into household food and groceries and all of that, right, is lumped into the $81,000. Now let me just go into the actual policy issue and the actual transparency issue. Like when I say that all of the household food and grocery expenses are lumped into one basket, that means taxpayers and Canadians have absolutely no idea how much of this money

is spent on personal groceries for the Prime Minister and his family, idea how much of this money is spent on personal groceries for the Prime Minister and his family, or how much of this is going to, you know, official government events or the meetings that you just mentioned. Right? So like, look, it's one thing for taxpayers or the Prime Minister to expense Canadians for official government events or official government business, but it's a completely other thing for the taxpayer to pick up the personal groceries of the prime minister.

And the way the government is tallying up these records, we have absolutely no idea how much of taxpayers money is being spent on personal groceries or how much of taxpayers money is going to official vets. Yeah, and look- I think that has to change. And look, the prime minister doesn't pay a mortgage and doesn't have to worry about car payments. It doesn't have to worry about a whole bunch of stuff that average Canadian families have to pay for as well. So I absolutely take your point. Franco,

I wish I had more time because I want to talk to you about this Canadian Taxpayers Federation lawsuit against the CBC, but hopefully we can get you on next week and we can drill down on what that actually means. But thank you so much for your time and for your insights on this matter. Yeah, that would be great. Thank you so much for having me on the show today. I'm very glad to have our next guest on the show because he is the author of a book that could not be more topical, could not be more relevant, and to a certain type of person, could not be more important. Given the health problems of Pope Francis, I'm very happy to welcome to the show Michael Higgins, the author of The Jesuit Disruptor, a Personal Portrait of Pope Francis. Michael, thank you for joining us on the Ben

Mulroney Show. It's my pleasure. Before we talk about Pope Francis, just a little bit of my background. I actually had the honor of meeting Pope John Paul II a couple of times when my father was prime minister. He gave a mass up on Parliament Hill. I believe it was about 100,000 Catholics, if I'm not mistaken, were assembled on Parliament Hill

for an immense outdoor mass. And because of that relationship that my father had with him, I got to know a little bit about the Pope. And correct me if I'm wrong, but generally speaking, it feels to me that if John Paul II was what I would call a foreign policy Pope who used Catholicism in his personal battle

against communism, then Pope Francis is more of a domestic policy Pope, focusing on the definition of Catholicism in a modern world. Would that be a—I get that that is very reductive, but would that be fair? I think there's some truth to it, Ben. Certainly, as you indicated, John Paul II had a large political agenda. He was an epic pope by certain

standards. And he concentrated on what is called the ad extra, meaning that world outside of the immediate reality of the Church. Francis has concentrated to some degree on the ad intra. That means those things that are of particular and immediate concern to strengthen Catholicism's witness in the world. Now, that is a bit of a generalization because Francis was also at, I shouldn't put it in the past sense, has been active in a number of different ways on the political front, particularly in relation to Beijing, but also in relation to Tel Aviv and to Kiev and to Havana, where all these places where he exercised soft power, which is what the Vatican has, using Vatican back circles and diplomats, what are called papal non-ceos, using various conduits to mitigate the worst

terrors, but also move towards conciliation. And he has been quite successful in some regards, but again, a lot of this goes on underneath the radar. So people don't really know about it until somebody comes along and writes a text on it or does an historical expose. If somebody is just tuning in right now and they say, they hear, oh, they're talking about the Pope, a lot of people would be forgiven if they didn't know a lot about him besides what they've read in the headlines.

So in your estimation, your expert opinion tells who is Pope Francis? Well, Pope Francis, well, he's Jorge Mario Bergoglio. He is an Argentine of Italian descent. He's a Jesuit. He's the first pope in history to take the name Francis. In fact, his pontificate is a series of firsts. Rather than live in the apostolic palace, where popes usually reside, or have at least for centuries, he chooses to live in an apartment

building, basically, called the Santa Marta. He is an individual who prizes the priority of the heart over reason. It's not that he's irrational, anything but. He trained as a chemist, some of his closest friends are scientists. He's got a very good, it would appear, working knowledge of artificial intelligence, and he maintains a strong interest in various of the shifting technological paradigms of the world. So he's not uninterested in things, but he privileges the heart as the primary means for communicating, preaching compassion, and making the message of the gospel relevant in our time. Now he's currently experiencing some significant health issues. Apparently, his pneumonia has improved, but his health has been

a question for a while. And, you know, some people look to the future in moments like this and wonder, you know, what happens next? A lot of us are aware of, generally speaking, of conclave and how important that is in the selection of another pope. But one thing I've noticed about Pope Francis, Michael, is that he surprised a lot of Catholics in some ways progressive view on certain social issues. Do those sorts of issues come up in conclave when the selection process is happening?

Are the candidates vetted in those moments? Are they asked those pointed questions? What is your position on X, Y and Z? Or is that, is that not, am I thinking about it too politically? Yes and no. I mean, the murmurations and the intrigues and other things that go on in the Vatican in conclave are just absolutely abnormal and they are human and they've been doing that for centuries long before the rise of democracies. So the Vatican's process of electing a successor to Peter means that, you know, the cardinals need to know something about each other.

Yes. But Pope Francis created, and the term then is create, he created a number of cardinals. And these cardinals are from the peripheries. They're from the margins. So you have a cardinal from Myanmar and you have a cardinal from Manchuria. And there are a very small number of Catholics in these jurisdictions. But Francis wants to heighten the global presence of the Catholic Church at the same time as he wants to bring particular groups that may feel that they have no voice in Rome. And so he creates cardinals in jurisdictions that would never have happened before, even in relatively non-Catholic countries, Christian but non-Catholic countries, like Sweden as

its first cardinal in centuries, if at all. And so Francis always pays attention to the outliers. And one of the reasons why he does that is he wants to underscore the universality of the Church. Now, this means that when the cardinals get together, they don't plot, but they do sit down, figure, maybe to some degree, connive, because they're candidates they don't want to go forward, and they're candidates they think are best for the church. But they don't hold press conferences to discuss these things. What they do is they hold congregations where the cardinals would be invited to give a particular address on a particular topic of concern for the church and the other

cardinals get to hear them. It is a bit of showcasing. Yeah, it is. It is. Michael, I only have a moment left, and so I'd love your answer to one last question in about 60 seconds. The book is called The Jesuit Disrupter. What makes Pope Francis a disrupter? Well, you know that he's often spoken to Catholic youth around the world and told them to make a mess. Now, he doesn't mean it in the kind of subversive, chaotic manner of Donald Trump. He means disruption in the sense that he's overturning expectations, protocols, ways

of doing things that have atrophied. They no longer have life. They become museum pieces. They're not the best way to live and work in the church. So his disruptions are not inspired by radical overturning of everything, as if he were a revolutionary, but the subtle readjustment in priority so that people see, and here's the important point, make an end with this, we can see what Francis sees as the most important point of the church. It's the image of the field hospital. It's where the wounded, the vulnerable, the desperate, and the broken go. That's the church for him.

Michael Higgins, author of The Jesuit Disruptor, a personal portrait of Pope Francis. Here's hoping that this discussion is a little premature and that the Pope has many years ahead of him. However, in the case that the church is in search of another Pope, we hope to talk to you again. Absolutely. Take care now. Thanks for listening to the Ben Mulroney Show Podcast.

We're live every day nationwide on the Chorus Radio Network, and you can listen online to the Radio Canada player and the iHeart Radio Canada apps. And make sure to follow and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever you get your streaming audio. We release new podcasts every day. Thanks for listening. Daniel Blanchard is no ordinary thief. His heists are ingenious. His escapes defy belief. And when he sees the dazzling diamond CC Star, he'll risk everything to steal it.

His exploits set off an intercontinental manhunt, but how long can CC Star stay lucky for Daniel? I'm Seren Jones, and this is a most audacious heist. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts.