The Ben Mulroney Show - Best of the Week Part 5 - Celina Caesar-Chavannes, Adrienne Batra, Jaskaran Sandhu

Episode Date: March 16, 2025

Best of the Week Part 5 - Celina Caesar-Chavannes, Adrienne Batra, Jaskaran Sandhu Guests: Celina Caesar-Chavannes, Adrienne Batra, Jaskaran Sandhu, Dr. Nadia Alam, Yonah Budd, Arian Rocca If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! https://globalnews.ca/national/program/the-ben-mulroney-show Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I thought you'd be dead by now. Get to the theater and experience the movie audiences are calling. An adrenaline rush of a good time. It's a big screen blast. Find a badass. I know, all right? Nova Kane, now playing. I'm going back to university for zero dollar delivery fee.

Up to five percent off orders and five percent Uber credits back on rides. Not whatever you think university is for. Get Uber One for students. With deals this good, everyone wants to be a student. Join for just $4.99 a month. Savings may vary. Eligibility and member terms apply. Welcome to the Ben Mulroney Best of the Week podcast. We had a great week of conversations, including our political panel that delivered the goods. We talked the over-the-top rhetoric coming out of Donald Trump's team, plus what is Justin Trudeau's true legacy? Oh, and I had someone who was in his government to answer that question.

Enjoy. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney Show. So very excited for these next two segments because it's This Week in Politics. And I am joined by some absolute all stars, Adrian Batra, the editor-in-chief of the Toronto Sun. Oh, for the first time, any chance I have as a broadcaster to highlight this next guest, I'm going to do it.

One of the most fascinating, interesting, confident people I've ever met, Celina Cesar-Chavann, former Liberal MP and parliamentary secretary to the Prime Minister. Welcome to the show for the first time. Thank you so much for having me. And Jessica Aronson, co-founder of BAS News and board member of the World Sick Organization of Canada. To all of you, I say hi. of the World SICK Organization of Canada. To all of you, I say hi. Hello.

So let's start with Washington, D.C. yesterday, that very important meeting between the Ontario Premier as well as the finance minister and the commerce secretary of the United States. When Doug Ford came out of that meeting, best meeting I've ever had, lengthy talks, very productive. I believe we've ratcheted down the temperature. And I believe Doug Ford to be an honest broker on this file because he has been consistent

since day one as to what he wants and how he wants it to get there. So I take him at his word. What then do we make of this little piece of audio from President Donald Trump? And to be honest with you, Canada only works as a state it doesn't we don't need anything that as a state it would be one of the great states anyway this would be the most incredible country visually if you look at a map they do it artificial line right through it

between canada and the u.s. is still straight artificial line somebody did it a long time ago many many decades ago and makes no sense. It's so perfect as a great and cherished state keeping, oh Canada, the national anthem. I love it. I think it's great. Adrian, how do we negotiate in good faith with someone who has a complete and fundamental lack of understanding that the country above him is in fact a sovereign nation, the border has value and there is a reason behind it. How are we supposed to negotiate

when we are dealing with somebody who is not tethered to the reality that the rest of us are? And it's a very difficult thing to do, but I think the the manner by which we're operating now, unfortunately, we can't speak as a one unified voice as a nation as a country. You know, we're sort of doing these off these piecemeal things. But the way to do it is pretty much how Premier Ford, for example, is doing it. You have to go around him. And that's why you have to go directly to the people that are in his cabinet, like Secretary Lutnick, like Scott Bissen. So this is how we are functioning. The challenge with even the procedure, the process that we have right now, is that the president could change his

mind tomorrow or in an hour from now. And so it does make it challenging and difficult. That said, one thing that we have seen and we've seen it in the past, once a deal is reached to a degree, the U.S. government will stick to it. What we really need to get to is our renegotiation of us Yeah, and then all of this will be put on the table all of this will be thought done thoughtfully and And hopefully likely at a time when we have a new federal government that has a mandate in order to do these types of negotiations Selena as someone once said when it comes to Donald Trump, you have to know how to distinguish

between the noise and the signal. Is that what we're looking at here? All this other stuff about an artificial border and O'Canada and governors in 51st states, and we don't need anything from them. That's all noise, but the signal is what happens behind closed doors? I think you're right there, Ben. And, you know, as stated, what we're doing right now is we're seeing the ping-ponging, you know, that the 51st stage, the tariffs are on, the tariffs are off. There is this noise and it's creating this energy and atmosphere of real concern,

real problematic. And behind closed doors, what we're seeing, what we saw in 2016 to 2020, and we're seeing again, is this work around, as the previous guest said, work around to go to cabinet, go to Congress, go to Senate, go to the business leaders, and speak to the American people, whether it's on media or otherwise, to say what is the actual cost of what is going to happen here?

How is this 51st state thing going to happen? It won't. And so I think the strategy is out of the playbook that we saw with the first Trump administration. We're seeing it again where there's a full court press to bypass some of the noise that Trump will continue to tweet or to say or to do and to bring some reason to the table with talking to other folks that are around him, but not necessarily directly to him. Yeah, Jaskarin, I'm at a loss. I just, I assumed that at some point the reaction to his, what I think is a foolhardy approach to building relations with Canada and trade and tariffs. I thought at some point, the market losing 10% of its value

or pushback from the talking heads that he hears on Fox News or his allies who are saying the quiet part out loud now, which this is madness. At some point, I thought that would have him look for an off-ramp. And he really seems to be digging in his heels. I think we keep trying to figure out what is the, quoteunquote 4d chess move that Trump is playing But I I don't think he's playing 40 chess I think it's time to consider Trump and America under Trump as an irrational state

It's he's an irrational state actor. You can't make sense of him Like is what we what we saw post-fors meeting just good cop bad cop Is it just Trump? Liking to own the news cycle. Is it is it Trump just trying to be chaotic? is it again some crazy vision he has that none of us are figuring out or is Trump just kind of crazy and that it's not Biden who was senile. Maybe it's Trump who's senile. I think it's time to start thinking in terms of like any rational state actor. Yeah. How can you make sense of anything he's doing? Everyone around him including the markets are saying this is the dumbest trade war in history. Yeah. Yeah

And that's that's why, as Mugatu said, in Mugatu said, I feel like I've taken crazy pills. But this if there's one thing that this is demonstrating is our absolute need as a nation to diversify our trading partners. I'm going to give each one of you about 40 seconds and I'll start with Selena. But who do you think can make that pitch better to voters? Pierre Poliev or Mark Carney? 40 seconds I'd give it to the whole 40 to Mark Carney. He has that Rolodex. He has the relationships. Mind you, it does look a little bit bad that he is going to Europe.

Oh we're talking about that after the break. I'm gonna hold my nose as I say, as I say, Carney, because he has the relationship internationally and we do need to diversify beyond Europe, beyond just the usual stuff. Jaskarin, what about you? Jaskarin? Apology there. I accidentally muted myself, a classic phone trip.

Who do I give it to? Am I going to give it to the guy who's been a career politician and has done nothing else in his life? Or am I going to give it to the man who's headed the financial sectors and banking of countries like Canada under Harper during tough economic times and the UK during Brexit who has a knack for this. I'm gonna give it to Carney. Like I will never give this to Paul yet. Okay, you don't give it to Carney. Something tells me that Adrian Batra

might take issue with that. Adrian, the final word in this segment is to you. Well, I'm actually surprised by the responses simply because what we're going to see from our Carney is ostensibly a retread of what we've had under Trudeau for the last nine, almost decades. Similar type of policy, similar type of philosophy. I mean, he's just put a guy in as Intergovernmental Affairs Minister that doesn't ever, is never going to allow for an East-West pipeline in this country. So I'm going to,

I'm going to give it to, toolly Ave simply because what we have been doing hasn't worked. So we need some different thinking. But we also need, and I know I've got like three seconds left, we also need to address our own inter-provincial trade issues. And that to me is so as equally important as looking at new markets outside of the outside of our borders. I completely agree with that. Certainly agree with that last point. We've got so much more coming up with our political panel, including why is Mark Carney prioritizing a trip to Europe over DC? That's next right here on the Ben Mulroney show. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney show. Welcome back to this week in politics And welcome back to Adrian Batra, Selena, Cesar Chavanne, and Shaskaran Sandhu.

We're talking about Mark Carney, the new 24th Prime Minister of Canada, sworn in today, new cabinet, and his first official trip as Prime Minister. I think it's surprising a lot of people. It's not down to Washington, but instead he's going to Europe. And before I invite Adrian to talk about it, I'm going to point out, here's what I think this is my take. He has he he has been positioning himself as the guy who can get a deal. He's the right guy to defend Canada against Donald Trump, right? But he doesn't want to blow that load before the election campaign. He

doesn't want to go down there and be shown as ineffective. There's a risk he might go down there and come back with a bad nickname. He may go down there and not come back with a deal. And if he does any of that before an election campaign, that's it for that argument. He can't make it anymore. So, Adrienne, what do you think? Well, this too is my assessment. So thank you for laying out exactly my view on it. I don't agree with it. I don't think it's the right move, but it's the political move. And if we are on the heels of what is looking like a tighter election, you can understand why he would choose Europe over the United States. But let's just sort of revisit what we just talked about in the first, in the first segment of this panel.

We're not speaking with a unified voice against the United States and making our Canada first argument. Yeah. He's the new prime minister. That's, that's, should be his job one. And going into conversations with the, with the very people who are are trying to adversely affect that that position in Canada it should be should have been his choice yeah I understand like you know the political one with respect to that I just don't yeah I think Premier Scott Moll was right yeah

Selena you like you got to make this make sense to me because if if past is prologue and he's played a very he's had a very safe run up until now not going to Washington is in keeping with that it's the safe move for him but that's not necessarily the right move for the country yeah let me be clear I don't got to make this make sense for you okay okay fair enough yeah this is not and to go back to agent like your initial point earlier around, you know, our domestic inter-provincial trade, like these are two big issues, what is happening domestically and what is happening south of the border that really needs to be dealt with. So if he's playing chicken with Canadians and saying, let me go and have a

vanity trip and show you how great I am with my friends in Europe and pose for pictures. We've seen this in Trudeau 1.0 where there were these international trips and these pictures and these all these the selfie guy thing. That's not what's needed right now unfortunately. He needs to be able to go toe-to-toe. That's I think why he got that sort of bump in the pole. He needs to go toe-to-toe. He needs to be able to go toe to toe. That's, I think, why he got that sort of bump in the polls. He needs to go toe to toe. He needs to be able to show his medal against a US administration,

but he also needs to show his medal here. This is where he's gonna win an election or not. So whether he's able to deal with a domestic challenge or what's happening right next door in his own neighborhood, why is he flying miles away to do that? I completely don't understand that. So I can't make a decision. Yeah, Jessica, what do you think? Because there's a huge, listen, this is what he wanted.

He wanted this role, but so there is a, but there's a huge political risk of going down to Washington and not coming back with a deal. In fact, there's a chance he'd come back with nothing but insults being thrown at him and possibly a nickname like Governor Trudeau. That plays, that's exactly the last thing he wants as he's told everybody, I'm here to solve this problem. If you look at Trump and you look at his actions through the lens of art of the deal, and if you look at Trump and you look through his actions of

an irrational state actor, and you think as as now I am the Prime Minister of Canada, if I want leverage in any discussion and conversation with the Americans, I need to go make my relationships elsewhere before coming there and fighting toe to toe. But just Karen, that's like saying that he's the one who told us the house was on fire and now he's decided the best way to fight that fire is to go down and buy French pastries. Look, we just talked about in this panel, the need for Canada to diversify its trade partners. We just talked about that. Yeah.

We just talked about that. We have made our bet and being at the whims of the Americans to a degree that is just unacceptable in a in a future where you're going to have instability you can never trust the Americans again even though they're our closest allies and culturally essentially the same we're going to have to look outside sure but just Karen in eventually Adrian to me what it is, is like that's a nice to have and it's certainly a must have in the future. But in the present, we are facing a clear and present danger. And the fact that he's looking down the road at potential deals when the very real reality

on the ground today is America. We have a deal with America. We have the new NAFTA that Donald Trump signed. No, you're not saying anything we're going to disagree with. My point is that if if Carney wants to make a statement with his first international trip, and that's what these usually are, their statement. And typically, yes, I agree with you. You go straight down to Washington and you sit down with our friends in America and you hammer out whatever issues are pending

and you continue to strengthen that relationship. I agree with you. I just don't think, I don't think you can have it both ways. I don't think you can say, and look at Pierre Polio and say, he's the wrong guy for this job. And then when you finally have the job, you don't do the job.

Adrienne? It is the job to go to Europe. Adrienne, there's nothing wrong with that. But we are in a circumstance that we unfortunately find ourselves in where the reality is we need to focus our attention is down south. Look, if we're a grown-up country, we can do both. We can do both. We can build relationships with other nations in terms of trading partners and

sending our LNG and building pipelines that we can do all those things. A grown-up nation should be able to do that. But what we're facing right now, and I mean, I think anybody would be hard pressed to disagree with the fact that the need is now and is down south. Yeah, I don't want to cut you off. Reach for it. Reach for it in this whole notion that we're not unified. We're doing all this negotiations piecemeal and leaving it to the premiers. Adrienne, I don't want to cut you off.

I don't want to cut you off, but I do want to spend a couple of minutes looking back at Justin Trudeau and his legacy. And Selena, you worked with him. And there will be a day where we can look at it dispassionately, But in your mind, having worked with the man, what what do you think his legacy is? You know, I got to give him a little bit of credit in the last little while of taking the time and taking the gloves off. Maybe he had nothing to lose here, but I think he will be remembered as having a lot of legacy and baggage,

but at a time, especially now, where the country needed a unified sort of mission that wasn't just driven by a bully, but driven by a purpose to really stand up for ourselves and start to look at some of these threats that are facing our nation. He did that. And so, you know, I'm the first to criticize them. But at the same time, I think he shifted that a little bit towards the end. And I'll give him kudos for that. I think he'll be remembered for the final moments of his term. Just 40 seconds to you on Justin Trudeau's

legacy. I think he'll be most remembered for his final days and pushing back against America and Donald Trump. But as aside from that, I think what he did do that was unprecedented again towards second half of his term was the fight against foreign interference, especially in the face of India's transnational oppression in this country and calling it out for what it is, I think sends great precedent for future aggression, whether it's the Russians, Iran, China, whatever it may be, to stand up against foreign interference in this country. Adrian, I think he probably would want to be remembered for his last few days because I don't think that by and large,

I mean, there's a lot of bad headlines over the last nine and a half years. So you've got the last 40 seconds. Well, I mean, Selena literally wrote the book on this. So I heard her on her comments. But yeah, look, the last four or five weeks has not been bad. But I think history overall will not be particularly kind to Justin Trudeau with many of the very harmful policies that they brought in that have damaged our country economically. We have east-west divides that we haven't seen in a very, very long time.

And I think that there is a lot of things that Canadians aren't going to miss from Justin Trudeau. Adrian Batra, Selena Cesar-Chavann, and Jaskeran Sandhu, please consider yourselves always welcome here on the Ben Mulroney Show. It's been such a treat chatting with each and every one of you. Breaking news coming in from Bet365,

where every nail biting overtime win, breakaway, pick six, three point shot, underdog win, buzzer beater, shootout, walk off, and absolutely every play in between is amazing. From football to basketball and hockey to baseball, whatever the moment, it's never ordinary at Bet365. Must be 19 or older, Ontario only. Please play responsibly.

If you or someone you know has concerns about gambling, visit connectsontario.ca. When the frustration grows and the doubts start to creep in, we all need someone who has our back to tell us we'll be okay, to remind us of our ability to believe. Because their belief in us transfers to self-belief and reminds us of all that we're capable of. We all need someone to make us believe hashtag you got this. If you use chat GPT, it really is quite a marvel, right? Like I really thought oh, it's gonna be an iteration. It's just gonna

be whatever I've been using before whatever tools I use online, it's just going to be an iteration on that. No, no, no. It's a completely different beast. It is. It's a revolution. And so a few weeks ago I had Dr. Nnedi Allam on the show and we were talking about how more and more Canadians were availing themselves of, you know, web MD for example, because they don't have access to a family doctor. But then I asked myself, well, if AI is so much better than anything that preceded it,

maybe the chat GPT version of WebMD is light, light years ahead of what was available just a few short years ago. So to talk about this, let's welcome back to the show Dr. Nadia Allam. She's a past president of the Ontario Medical Association and a family doctor. Doc, welcome to the show. Hello, how are you doing? Well, I'm great. But so it here's the intellectual exercise as a doctor is chat is Dr. chat GPT something that I I is it a is a is it a good thing or a bad thing? I think it's kind of a double-edged sword. Chat GPT can provide you with really good information, but the thing with artificial intelligence is the data it's trained on. Chat GPT, we don't know what data it is trained on, particularly when it comes on medicine.

Basically, artificial intelligence takes a whole bunch of information and then condenses it for, for a person. So you can see this on Google when you do Google searches and AI summary will come up. But if you look at where that information comes from, the source can be good. The source can be bad, right? There's misinformation, disinformation online as well as really good information. So I love that patients want to be informed about their health, right?

We've got so much information on the internet. I remember the days when we had no internet. So we've democratized information to a significant degree. It's beautiful, but it's a double-edged sword, particularly if you're in a situation like you described where you don't have a physician or an expert to help you navigate that information and point out where chat GPT is right and where it's wrong. Yeah. And you know, I wasn't even going to bring this up, but it occurred to me because

you and I are potentially working on a project together called Relief AI, which is an AI avatar for mental health. And we'll talk about that at a later date. But essentially what I think we're getting at here is if, because here's my question for you, if there was an AI model that was trained specifically on medical information, as is the case with Relief AI, could it be a very, a really reliable tool that doctors would even tell their patients? Yes, that can be the first place you go before you come to me. Yes. Yeah, because we know that AI tools are used already used in a number of areas in

medicine. They're used in cancer care. They're used in particular aspects of cancer care. They're used in internal medicine, cardiology, to various degrees, right? It is very focused, much like what you're talking about with Relief AI. It is based on specific, reliable, validated information that's up to date. And because of that, it is a valuable tool. This is a takeaway for patients. Yeah, that's good. So, yeah, so I think that's up to date. Yeah. And because of that, it is a valuable tool. All right, I want to- This is a takeaway for patients.

Yeah, that's good. So those tools could become available, right? So that's good. So stay tuned, watch this space. Meanwhile, we always talk about best practices and because of the healthcare issues we have around the country, we should really be looking,

when we hear good news, we should study it, figure out why it's working and see if there are ways to adapt it to other areas. And New Brunswick seems to be doing something right when it comes to family doctors by they're bringing in new family doctors through an international program. Talk to me about this. All provinces have been looking at how to address the family doctor problem and various governments have done it to a lot of with a lot of success.

In BC, they welcomed 700 new family doctors. So not just people who have graduated and live in BC and have gone into family medicine, but also new graduates, Canadian graduates. There are two ways of becoming a physician in large terms and writ large in Canada. One is to study in Canada. One is to study outside of Canada and go through some sort of assessment process to start working in Canada, like bring those international skills to work here and be able to follow Canadian standards of care. Yeah. In Ontario, the ability to become to be a foreign trained physician and international trained physician and be able to work in Ontario is very challenging. It takes years because you have to write a number of exams.

You have to have a number of supervisors who test you. But doctor, why? You have to have a number of supervisors who test you. But, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, putting their the patients of the province at any more or less risk than the people in on than the government of Ontario So why so many hoops in Ontario? Is it just because they're there and we haven't looked to get rid of them or streamline them? So the hoops in New Brunswick have changed Yeah to to be more practical right what they do is essentially do a field assessment where? clinician an international trained physician is monitored by a local physician to make sure that there's quality control, standardization of good high quality care.

Ontario can follow that example. I think Ontario really does have to revisit, does have to revisit how they allow international graduates to work here because I agree with you, the standards of care in Canada are the standards of care in Canada. So we should have some, we should have similarity across how these international medical graduates are assessed. Yeah. Right now, it's kind of all over the place. Yeah.

It's different from province to province. Yeah, it's one of those, it's in its own way, it's an inter-provincial trade barrier. And there is a desire to break those down in all sorts of ways. So here's hoping it comes to the medical community as well, to the benefit, by the way, I would add, of the people who are paying enormous amounts of taxes to get health care that is simply not up to snuff right now. So I really do hope that that seed finds purchase. I agree. I wholeheartedly agree. And I know that the CPSO is looking at it. The question becomes how long does it take to look at it? All right, let's look at British Columbia where kids there are not meeting Canada's movement guidelines or even getting enough sleep. So the

children should be getting at least one hour of physical activity every day and eight to ten hours of sleep. Also no more than two hours of recreational screen time a day. That's easier said than done. But in BC, which has the reputation of being a healthy province, people are outdoors, they're one with nature, that only 14% of children met the daily screen time recommendation and only 26% met the guidelines for physical activity. So that's a little scary. Oh, it's terrifying. The habits you set in childhood are the habits you carry over in adulthood. And we know that a sedentary lifestyle where you spend most of your time on your butt rather than walking around doing

Stuff in general as well as exercise has a huge impact on your risk for heart disease Risk of stroke risk of that first stroke risk of a diabetes diagnosis risk of cancer Even right so physical activity is a necessity in our lives. But as we've become a society where we've moved from being blue collar workers and farmers to more white collar workers, more office jobs, we've become more sedentary. And look at what happened during the pandemic. Social media use skyrocketed among all age groups. Veterinary lifestyle skyrocketed. And unfortunately, we've carried that over post pandemic and we need to go back to what we were aware. You know, like you and I've talked

about before, kick the kids out of the house for a couple of hours, go play in the park, go hang out with your friends, come home by dinnertime. Exactly. Hey, run around, enjoy the park. Go hang out with your friends. Come home by dinner time. Exactly. Hey, Dr. Enjoy the outside. Dr. We're gonna leave it there. But thank you so much for joining us. I hope that you have a great end to your Friday and a great weekend. Thank you so much, Ben. You take care. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney Show. And the Ontario that we're living in now is not the Ontario a few generations ago, we are now living in a world of gambling. It's part of the fabric of this province. There are casinos in a number of places, as well as online gambling that you can do

from the comfort and ease of your smartphone. And I learned an expression today that I was not aware of. It's called self, what's it called? When you self, what's it called? When you self, what's it called? When you self identify? No, you self restrict.

Self restrict. So if you're a problem gambler, if you're somebody who knows that you have a compulsion and an addiction, you can self identify as a problem gambler and then by way of facial recognition, you essentially ban yourself from these casinos as a way to limit your exposure. And because of that, there's a database of these problem gamblers in areas across Ontario. And what we're learning is in the immediate neighborhoods around many Ontario casinos,

the rate of self-identified problem gamblers is much higher than the provincial average. And so it's sort of like, if you build it, they will come. And I wanted to drill down into this because I found this to be a really interesting phenomenon. And the best person to talk addiction with is Yona Budd. He's the chorus addictions and counseling expert, and you can find him at yonabudd.com.

Yona, thank you so much for joining us today. Glad to be here, Ben. Thanks for having me. Yeah, so I understand that addiction is addiction. It might be drugs, it might be alcohol, it could be anything, and I'm sure they activate the same parts of the brain, but are there unique aspects to gambling addiction

that are different from other addictions? It's a great question. So I guess there, you know, each act of self-destruction, if you will, each act of at-risk behavior changes. The difference between, let's say drug addiction and process addiction like gambling is that it's somewhat invisible to the outside world. In other words, you don't see someone on the street

kind of looking like they're in rough shape. There's not that physical immediacy that you can tell someone's in trouble. And the risk is much, much higher in a gaming or gambling addiction because the amount of money that can be lost or wagered in a minute far exceeds the amount you could possibly spend on even the craziest of drug addiction. Right. So that, that, that's, and the destruction to family and businesses

and so on seems to be much greater when someone's deep into a gambling addiction. You know, when you invent something, you also invent the abuse of that thing. In other words, when the car was first invented, you also accidentally invented the car accident. Same with the plane. And same with the plane and same with when you invent gambling, you also invent gambling addiction. And so when

we brought gambling into the province of Ontario, people who otherwise never would have been exposed to that thrill and didn't could not have become problem gamblers. In other words, there's a social responsibility from the government if they are the ones licensing and bringing it in, then there should be a responsibility that comes with that as well to ensure that if those people do run a foul and they do become addicted, that there are supports for them. Do we have adequate supports for gambling addiction in the province of Ontario? Oh, like every other addiction? Absolutely not. You know, and then you know, you didn't mention it, but I'm sure you

will. You know, the advent to legalized online. Oh, yeah, we were getting to that next, you know, like it's promoted through the wall. So you don't even have to go to a casino anymore. You can be in Nowheresville, Ontario, BC, Edmonton somewhere in the middle of the country with a laptop and Wi-Fi and blow your brains out on gambling. You don't have to go anywhere. But you know the attraction to gambling, the way we attract people in this country is similar to Vegas. You know they got shows, they got free buffets, and you can stay overnight if

you gamble enough. They actually incent you. They give you an incentive to gamble more by attracting you, by giving you free stuff. Yeah. Yeah, I've got my, listen, I've got a raft of vices, but gambling has never been one. It's never scratched a particular itch of mine. So it's kind of a foreign concept for me. But I have to assume, as you just said, with the advent and the rise of online gambling and all these

sports betting apps and things like that, that the problems that we're experiencing today are going to explode in the next few years. As somebody who's been in the trenches, is there, can you see a timeline here of knowing that sports betting is still young? Are we five years off from a crisis? Are we 10 years off? When does society finally take note of the problem? Well, I think when one of our one of our members of parliament or one of our officials in government has a cousin, uncle, brother, brother-in-law who lose their house, family and everyone else to a gambling addiction, you know, we haven't even seen the tip of the iceberg.

And by the way, kids now are able to wager in certain kinds of games to get new men, new devices, new weapons, and so on as part of their game. So we're teaching children through some of these player apps, player games, how to kind of wager. And I think that we're in lotteries in this country. I was telling George before we came on the show together about a patient I had who was spending, you know, $10,000, $20,000 a week on lottery tickets. And most of their time going from retailer to retailer to retailer, trying to win that lottery. Forget about even going to a casino or wrapping up your, you casino or lighting up your computer, just go to a gas station and they'll take all your money

if you wanna buy lottery tickets. What do you make of the problematic proximity issue? The fact that so many problem gamblers are living so close to where they could indulge in their addiction. Well, if you're a guy that likes to drink every night, you're going to live close to a bar. And I don't think it's incumbent upon us as, as, as Ontarians or the government in this particular case, to start assessing people that move into a particular neighborhood that's within walking distance from a casino. I think,

I think the casinos themselves, you know, need to do a better job. They certainly do a very good job of keeping track of people who can count cards and quote unquote cheat at the game or have an advantage over the game. They keep track of them very well. Yeah. They don't do a very good job of keeping track of people who are losing their lives or their lives savings, if you will, day by day, minute by minute. You know, are you saying that this self-identifying program that then puts their face in a database and highlights it when they walk into a casino,

that's not, it's not robust enough? Well, I think it's a great, listen, if you want to report yourself and protect yourself, I think it's a great idea and it's a great plan. Is it robust enough? I mean, let's understand why the casinos are in business. They're in business to take your money and win. For them to win, for you to lose.

So, you know, how much weight is on them at this point? I don't think a lot. I think the government needs to do a better job like we do with cigarettes at the counter at a convenience store or marijuana at the counter, you know, checking people, making sure that they're okay when you, you know, similar to trying to get a gun license in the US, for example.

I think we got to do a much better job before allowing people to spend or rager their life savings or credit when they're coming back day after day after day. I think there needs to be something incumbent upon the operators to do a better job. But I think that's like asking a bartender to keep a guy out that he knows has a drinking problem. Some are really good at it because they're just good people. Others don't care. That's not their job. Well, Yonah Budd, I want to thank you for coming on

because like I said, it was such a curious story and I'm so glad that you were able to lay it out for me and for the listeners of the show. So I appreciate it. Have a great weekend. Always a pleasure, Ben. Thank you. This episode is brought to you by RBC Student Banking. POV, you're learning you can get $100 when you open a no-monthly fee RBC Advantage banking account. Plus, you get unlimited debit transactions in Canada and you can earn Avion points on debit purchases so you can vibe more with friends. POV, you're unlocking more perks for less with RBC.

Conditions apply. Offer ends July 2nd, 2025. New eligible clients only. Complete criteria by August 29th, 2025. Visit rbc.com slash student 100. Are you crushing your bills? Defeating your monthly payments. Sounds like you're at the top of your financial game.

Rise to it with the BMO Eclipse Rise Visa Card. The credit card that rewards your good financial habits. Welcome back to the Ben Mulroney Show. As we all know, we're experiencing a housing shortage clear across Canada, and in Toronto in particular, things are really bad. There's a city staff report that says that Toronto is experiencing a continued housing supply slowdown as a result of high construction and financing costs, higher interest rates, and declining pre-construction, sales, and rents. The report warns that the slowdown in housing development could have a generational negative impact on Toronto's ability to accommodate current and future residents.

Now the central bank has lowered interest rates again and that could be significant, but to drill down on really how bad things are and what we need to do in order to get ourselves to a place where we can finally house the people we need to do in order to get ourselves to a place where we can finally house the people who need to be housed. I'm joined now by Adrian Rocha, the founder and CEO of Fitzrovia. Adrian, thank you so much for joining us on the Ben Mulroney Show.

Thanks for having me, Ben. So level set for us. How bad is the status quo? It is bad. I've been back from Europe for the last 11 years, I've never seen supply as low as it is today. We're seeing kind of new sales down 90% and of the current sale activity that has occurred

in the condos market, most of those projects are not gonna hit the pre-sale thresholds, which means they'll actually never go under construction. You need 70-75% of the total units in a particular project to be pre-sold. So it's essentially zero in terms of new supply right now. So you essentially have the stuff that exists is not selling and the stuff that is on deck to be built isn't getting built. That's correct.

Okay, and then meanwhile, we still have millions of people. I think the population of the GTA slated to grow by what? 25% in the next 15 years. So we already don't have a place to put the people we have. What, okay, so three different levels of government, including the central bank. So that's four different players, who's who's making changes that are actually going to make things easier to build and make

that the stuff that's built sort of purchasable. So we're seeing some cities which are taking bold steps to change the economic profile of new development. Miss Saga, Vaughan, they've waved or cut significantly development charges for a period of time to encourage more new supply coming into the market. You really have to rethink the economic model right now. Margins are really, really thin and it doesn't really allow for a developer to take on the risk or institutional capital partners

to develop brand new product in today's market. So when you're looking at the total development costs of a new project, 30% are municipal fees, development charges, and levies. And so we really need to find a way to reduce those and find a different stream to fund those coming into the market like infrastructure bonds or municipal bonds. Well, and right now, I guess Toronto is looking at deferring some of those charges,

which I'm sure is a temporary plus, but those charges still have to get paid at some point. Yeah. So it's back to the margins being really thin. A simple deferral helps very, very little, right? It you save a little bit of interest costs associated with paying later, but it doesn't really materially change the profit margins or the margins to go vertical, right? And so you really need to adjust the total development costs. And that's why a development charge waiver makes sense, or a property tax waiver. But here's what I don't understand is, what is the need the absolute need for a lot of these development charges?

Because there are plenty of municipalities like Miami, for example, I've heard stories about how their development charges are insignificant compared to ours. It's not like their condos are any less safe. It's not like their, their condos are or anything are inferior in any way to ours. It's not like their condos are any less safe. It's not like their, their their condos are, or anything are inferior in any way to ours. So what's that money going to? And do we really need those charges? Yeah, for one, we have, I'd say a couple billion dollars, I

think it's $2 billion, to be exact, of unspent development charges that are earmarked for projects in some cases that I don't believe will be built in the next 20 years. So I think there needs to be a reallocation of those capital projects, those infrastructure projects that are on the city list right now would be one. Two, the funding model in the US is very different. I think we could learn from that. They have the ability to raise what's called an infrastructure bond or municipal bonds.

And so you're able to bring institutional and retail capital to the table to fund the build out of infrastructure instead of just putting the obligations around building out that infrastructure, city infrastructure to the developer, which indirectly impacts the cost of a unit or the rent associated with what's being built.

So Adrian, if we are in fact in a crisis, and we are, then why aren't we looking at things like that? Why, if that works and if that drives down costs and if that speeds up development, why aren't we looking at solutions like that? So it's definitely being tabled. And I that speeds up development, why aren't we looking at solutions like that? So it's definitely being tabled. And I would say that government all three levels of government have done a really good job engaging the private sector, we've we continue to be

in a number of workshops with them just given our size and scale, we're, we're the largest developer of rental housing in Canada. And so they've done a good job engaging, changing policy where a municipality could issue these form of bonds takes a while. It doesn't happen overnight. You need to put the guardrails in place for those bonds to be issued.

And so it is being tabled. I hope someone, i.e. the province, will drive that forward and introduce that policy over time, but it doesn't happen overnight. It is one of many things that are being looked at right now. I think the easiest thing we can do is have an open sunset window, call it two years, where we're fully waiving development charges and property tax to encourage as much new housing, especially rental housing, that gets created in the market. They've done it in Sunbelt markets in the US very effectively when they needed to

get more supply into the market. And every day, every week, every month that goes by right now where we don't have that policy change, or a change to the economic model, this thing's gonna snowball. So Adrian, just give me give me a sense. I always love timelines. So if if City Council had some sort of change of heart and really wanted to take this seriously and listen to what you just said

and gave sort of a two-year reprieve on a number of those taxes, how long until we would see a meaningful turnaround in the market? So we have a number of projects right now that we have a building permit on the clerk's desk ready to be pulled that are fully zoned and fully designed. So we would, we would immediately put a couple thousand units in development into the market.

Typically there's call it a three, three and a half year construction window to do a high rise if you're really efficient. And so by the time that actually gets delivered in the market, you're talking at best three to three and a half years. But in the interim, you're employing God knows how many tradesmen and tradespeople in this city, all of whom are working and paying taxes. I mean, there is a positive knock on effect from lowering the tax implications for the developer. Absolutely. The counter to that, which is a really important point, we have to maintain our trade capacity in the system. As when the market eventually does come back. There's only so much trade capacity, right? We're kind of bursting at the seams of 25 26,000 units a year in terms of what's being constructed. And

so right now what we're finding is trades are laying off employees. Trades are very slow. They're really trying to engage to be on tender lists on the very few projects that are being constructed right now. And so if that staffing pool moves to other sectors or other geographies, which they will absolutely do when you're in survival mode trying to put food on the table and feed your family. That is not good for this industry long term to ramp up to get back to that capacity will be more difficult. Adrian Rock of the CEO and founder of Fitz Rovia really appreciate your voice in this

conversation. I hope you have a great weekend. My pleasure. Thanks for having me, Ben. Thanks for listening to the Ben Mulready Show podcast. We're live every day nationwide on the Chorus Radio Network, and you can listen online to the Radio Canada player and the iHeart Radio Canada apps. And make sure to follow and subscribe on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your streaming audio. We release new podcasts every day.

Thanks for listening. At Desjardins, we speak business. We speak equipment modernization. Thanks for listening. Business. So join the more than 400,000 Canadian entrepreneurs who already count on us and contact Desjardins today. We'd love to talk business.