The Ben Mulroney Show - Boston booze, designing a James Bond lair, and are "starter homes" a dream?

Episode Date: June 18, 2026

GUEST:  Tania Richardson is the co-founder of Tomas Pearce Design, an award winning design firm in Toronto with over 20 years of experience.  Guest: Dr. Eric Kam, Economics Professor at Toronto Metropolitan University - If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://link.chtbl.com/bms⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Also, on youtube -- ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@BenMulroneyShow⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow Ben on Twitter/X at https://x.com/BenMulroney Insta: ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠ Twitter: ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠ TikTok: ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠ Executive Producer:  Mike Drolet Reach out to Mike with story ideas or tips at [e-mail] Enjoy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This podcast is brought to you by the National Payroll Institute, the leader for the payroll profession in Canada, setting the standard of professional excellence, delivering critical expertise, and providing resources that over 45,000 payroll professionals rely on. Greetings, Canada, from the comfort of my father's den in my parents' apartment, my mom's apartment, in Montreal. For those of you just joining,

I'm here with a very special interview that I conducted with my mother for the final episode of Global News's program that airs every Sunday on Global, the West Block. It's been a privilege guest hosting the show. I was the interim host, and the season ends on Sunday. So I hope you tune in. We had a wonderful, fascinating conversation about all sorts of stuff, everything from my father to the importance of political, personal connections in politics, philanthropy, education, women in politics. I asked my mom who her favorite child was. She'll have to tune in to see if she answered.

But it was a lot of fun. Meanwhile, Canada is playing guitar. Hey, let me ask you quick. Let me ask you jump in there. What was it like interviewing your mom? It must be a little weird, a little strange. Well, I mean, I saw my parents interviewed a lot. Yeah, but it's still, it's somebody in the family, right?

I interviewed my dad a lot. more than once on multiple platforms. So that wasn't weird. No, and I don't think so. I think my mom's an interesting, an interesting person. I thought, I could get a certain type of information out of her

that would be of value to people. So I thought it wasn't weird. No, it wasn't weird at all. She gave you the gears about any of the questions you have. Ben, I can't believe you ask me that. Well, there are a couple of times says, well, I'm not going to answer that. Again, you'll have to tune in to see

What questions I asked, I'm not going to answer that. You've asked me that before, Ben. I haven't answered so. She doesn't just look at you, raise an eyebrow and go, Benedict? Look, I'm telling you, man, I've got such a great job. I got to, on the company's dime, I got to fly to Montreal and be in this, I'm in this room, guys. I'm in this room that's got so many memories of my dad. I was flown here to experience it, talk about my dad, and hang out with my mom.

And then I get to do this with you. I get to do this from here. And it's a wonderful gift to be able to do this. It's not lost on me how lucky I am, even though I do have to do it with Mike Droulet. That's what they say without the sour, the sweet just ain't is sweet, Mike. Geez, are you the sour?

That's what I'm guessing. Sir, you're the sour. Look at Joy. Look at Joy's face. I'm not even there. And I know he's agreeing with me. No, he's got such. He is, he is the epitome of his name.

He is a joy. See, you're trying to do there, right? Mike, you were trying to take usurp Joy's agency from him. Let the man talk. He's got a microphone. Anyway, let's get to it because Canada's playing guitar tonight. And Joy, what are Canada's chances? Well, chances are very good, to be very honest,

because Qatar is not that good a team. Even if they don't play Alfonso Davis today, they should still win. But I'm pretty sure that Davis will come on, maybe after half time if he's not starting, for quite a brief period just to set him up for the next game which is against Switzerland.

Yeah, and that's going to be a, that's a big one, yeah? Yep, that's going to be a big one. And I would recommend, and everyone would recommend, to save Alvonso Davis for Switzerland. There you go. What are the rules, though? One last thing, what are the rules? If he doesn't start the game,

can he still play in the game? Oh, for sure. He can be substituted in whenever needed. And if they go down, I'm pretty sure that they will sub him in. I thought you were asking what are the rules of soccer. You're supposed to kick the ball in the other net. Except that's not.

So you just had a whole conversation with a version of me that doesn't exist. Gotcha. Gotcha. Well, so one of the stories, subplots of this really great, memorable event that I think is going to be something we talk about for years is Boston and the Tartan Army. Because Boston is struggling to handle the Scots. Let's listen to an NBC news report on how Scotland fans are drinking Boston dry. There was no beer that Scots fans just drunk the place dry, and all they had was like bud-like.

If your favorite beer is missing from a tap, we've never seen anything like it. There's a decent chance Scotland had something to do with it. Sam Adams downtown ran out of their signature Boston lager over the weekend and needed an emergency delivery to keep up with World Cup fans, and they're not the only ones running dry. Pretty much everything. We went out of having tenants being number one.

White Bull Tavern may have run out of Scotland's iconic tenants beer, but that didn't stop the party. Fans have been unbelievable. They're great, that fun, the drink and party and having a great time. So you have a drinking keltz for obvious reasons, because it might get some spillage on it. You have a dress kelt. So you always have two kiltz.

But that's... He's saying kilt, by the way. Yeah, you only have two keltz. No, it's a kilt. And look, One of the reasons we are really leaning into these stories of the alcoholic tolerance of the Scots is because from the stories that we're finding, and I know Mike is scouring doing the research for this, we are not finding a whole bodies of Scottish fans acting poorly because of the zero. Absolutely nothing. Like none.

As a matter of fact, we're finding the exact opposite. listen to this Boston city worker, a municipal worker who said 2,000 fans, Scottish fans, took over a park and they drank all day. And then they cleaned up afterwards. Yeah. They did Japanese fans. They deep, man, and they could drink too. What?

Are you kidding me, man? They must don't got no water over there, Scholar. After they're gone, I'm one person cleaning up after them, man. and it ain't that bad. They came, conducted themselves, man, with class, dignity, man, and they like our city. So I'm happy they came, man. It's so nice to be able to tell these stories and talk about essentially an entire, an entire ethnic group and doing something that, oh, no, the stories are going to be such and such a thing.

Here's a bunch of scots, drinking a whole bunch of beer. And the end result is the exact opposite of what the stereotype suggests. It's such a wonderful thing to talk about, and it's fun and it's happy and it's joyous. And we love sharing these stories. Don't we intrepid. I love it. And let me just share one more with you, but not about the Scots, because Canada is playing Qatar, the Vancouver Aquarium, because they are playing in Vancouver, they decided to put up

the Qatari flag and the Canadian flag, and they had the local animals choose who was going to win. And all of the beavers and seals chose Canada. All of them. Well, there you have. It's the definitive proof that Canada is a lock. It's a lock. And look, these are the fun stories.

But on this show, we move around and we will cover the stories that we think are important. And this is another one. If we don't talk about this and if we don't talk about how these stories are talked about in the press, then we're going to normalize this. And I refuse to live in a world where this is normal. So the story in the national post, the headline reads as follows. B.C. man who murdered wife and son gets, quote, below normal sentence due to indigenous heritage. We have been talking about this, and we will continue talking about it.

Anytime this type of story rears it, this type of story rears its ugly head. And yes, it is ugly. We're going to talk about it. And as, because I rewrote the title. The title of this article should be, indigenous mother and her son are denied justice because of the race. of their murderer. That is what happens when you decide that you're going to put your finger on the scale and say, we are going to treat a particular type of violent offender differently because we feel that their lineage and their culture requires it because of some sort of cultural guilt that we as a

nation hold. And I'm sorry, I'm not sorry. We will continue talking about this time and time again. The court relied again on indigenous sentencing reports to explain how this murderer's background contributed to his path towards violence. But I got to ask yourself, does that mean that every single person who has this background will murder somebody? And the answer is obviously no. So then why does this guy get a pass? Why does everybody, every other good and decent indigenous person who has trauma in their background, who has violence or trials and tribulations in their background, but who succeeds and who thrives and who is positive in society.

Why does this guy get a pass when his wife, his indigenous wife and indigenous son are murdered? We always talk about missing and murdered indigenous woman. Here's a murdered indigenous woman. Where is her justice? So we will keep ringing this bell. We will keep being upset. We will keep being angry.

because these people, the victims, deserve better. This will never be normal and it will never be right. And until we stop treating certain criminals with kid gloves, justice will not be served. All right, we're going to take a break. And when we come back, we're going to talk about this incredible design firm out of Canada who are doing things in people's homes not to be believed. Don't go anywhere.

This is the Ben Mulroney show. This spring, Denham gets a softer, lighter update. Introducing Old Navy's drapey denim wide leg, a new fit that moves with you. It's everything you want denim to feel like for summer. Easy, breathable, and effortlessly cool. With a fit that creates natural movement and a wide leg that feels modern, not overwhelming. Plus, that signature, wait, for this price, moment. Old Navy's drapey denim wide leg. This episode is brought to you by L'Oreal Group. Beauty is a powerful force that moves us. That's why L'Oreal Group has built a business that is inclusive at its heart with 100% of its brands, championing diversity.

With 25,000 professional opportunities for people under 30 worldwide and 54% of leading positions held by women, diversity is a strength that helps L'Oreal Group create the best beauty products for all people. Visit L'Oreal.com to learn more. I don't know how you guys feel, but I love looking on social media. at people who've done incredible things with their home. I love people take pride in their home. I love people who, whether it's a tiny space or a big space, people will maximize it, people will make it feel warm, people will make it feel unique. And there's always something for me to learn, right? There's always a trick. There's always a piece of furniture that

it looks expensive, but isn't. There's always a way for us to, because I take pride in my home. And I want to learn from people who have done it, sometimes on a budget, but also. Also, I think there's a lot to learn, even for people on a budget, to learn from people who are going, turn it up to 11. And that's where Tanya Richardson comes in. She's the co-founder of Thomas Pierce Design. They're an award-winning design firm in Toronto. They got 20 years experience, and they have been, they're like at the forefront of, it used to be out of man cave. And now it's about the entire home, the entire experience, bringing the whole family together and just, and creating spaces, the likes of which very few of us have, have,

ever seen. Tanja, welcome to the Ben Mulroney show. Tan, you there? Yeah, I am here. There we go. Hi. So congratulations on all your success.

When I'm, when I'm, I look at, I've seen some of the things you've done. And look, this is out of reach for most people on a good day. Canada has had, yeah, I'm going to say 11 years of bad days. So, but just because something is out of reach doesn't mean that there are aspects of what there seeing some of it's still attainable parts of it are attainable absolutely so so one of the your sort of one of your great accomplishments is is a lodge right this is massive huge home that that that that looks it looks like you could have a thousand people in this place in various rooms talk talk to me about about your design

strategy, your design vision generally? Sure. Well, we built the client's initial home, which is a 15,000 square foot French Chateau. And after we built that, he was craving a lifestyle amenity property where he could have all of his toys and hobbies and family gatherings under one roof. And so we look at that almost as creating a he bought a hobby farm. And he's into winemaking and gin distilling. And And they have all kinds of hobbies and they have 100 acres of land. And then we built the lodge, which is a place for them to come together for all of their family gatherings. It's filled with games, billiards tables, all kinds of really cool amenities to come together and gather for, to make those memories.

So we're playing off of these hobby properties to be able to create and make their dreams come true with their families and the way they live and their hobbies and lifestyles. Did the pandemic coming out of the pandemic have anything to do with sort of this explosion of, you know, people who can want to create spaces where they can gather with their loved ones and their families for extended periods of time? Like this is the idea that we were so isolated for so long and then we weren't. Did that, did that play into it at all? I think that played a big factor into the psychological shift of how we're approaching spaces now. And what we're finding is we're not putting as many guest rooms into homes. We're building guest houses. We're creating these secondary properties where people are hosting events and parties.

So I find that people are keeping their primary residence more for their private immediate family. And for larger gatherings, they're having these auxiliary buildings or secondary spaces or even, you know, in Toronto, we have the garden suite additions as well where you can have an actual residential unit in it. And so I think there's been a huge shift in the way we entertain, the way we entertain ourselves with our hobbies and activities, and the way we share space with others. Yeah, I think somebody called it adult play spaces, which could sound dirty, but in the context of this, it makes more sense.

I like lifestyle amenities myself. Lifestyle amenities. I think that's better, too. It lends less to confusion. But you must, once people see this work, they see the lodge and they see the rotating vehicle platform, the glass garage party room, you must have very successful, very ambitious people with very deep pockets coming to you with some pretty bold design requests. What's the craziest one that you've either you've heard or one that you're working on? Well, I think you just touch base on it right now, one that we're currently working on in the city, has an underground car garage, and in the car garage there's a wall of glazing, so glass,

that separates the basement from his car garage, and he has a car that's on a rotating platform. And then we've created like a James Bond whiskey and wine-tasting rooms and cellars and the theater, sort of the ultimate James Bond dude lounge in his... Wow. His lower level. So I think that's one of the coolest ones we're working on. But there's a lot of really cool hidden elements. And if you can think of it, we'll figure out a way to create it.

What would you tell our listeners who don't have the ability to stretch that dollar anywhere near what they're seeing and what they're coveting? But they want to, they want to improve their space. You know, they want to be able to, I have a friend, for example, Tanya, that, he bought a beautiful old home, and the first thing he got rid of was the formal dining room. He said, if it's used, it's used once or twice a year. It's space that we could use for something far more popular. Is that a trend that you're seeing as well?

Yes, it is a trend. And it has been for a while because I find that people have changed the way that they live. and over the last 15, 20, 30 years. And we want those casual spaces. We want those gathering spaces. I've seen dining rooms turned into boardrooms. I've seen them turned into billiards rooms. I've seen them turned into executive offices.

And what I find is it really is down to the individual resident of that space and how they use an intent to live. And especially in the last five, six years, with the hybrid of work from home. Yeah. We're seeing a lot of that where our home has to work as an office and a home. Yeah, and I've seen people invest quite a bit into that home office because they want to know and they want to feel like if they are going to work from home, they want that separate space. They want that they want to be able to separate from the cacophony of kids running around. They want to so they soundproof the office.

If they're required to be on camera, they want to look as good as possible because when you go when you go to the office, when you go to meetings, you want to present as well as possible. So why wouldn't you want to invest in the audio and visual component to allow you to present that way online? And you're right. And soundproofing is something that's also taken off. And it's been huge in the last five or six years because of that. And I think sort of getting back to your question about what can people do, it's really creating a space that is unique to you and it speaks to you. Whether that's a quiet corner where you curl up in a book or curl up with a book,

if it's a room you dedicate to working out or meditation or a hobby of sorts. I think that's where you can carve that out in any size space, being a condo or a home. You can always carve out a corner. Yeah, and you've got to figure out who you are and who you want to be when those people are there. Are you the chef? Are you the party planner? Are you the person who wants everybody to do group activities and then build the space around that? Yes, and that's exactly what we're doing is we're case.

to those particular customized needs of our clients and whatever eccentricities they have with their hobbies or their activities and their interests, we're taking them to new levels. Taking them to new. Did you ever think that this would be your job, that you would be, because as a designer, this must be your dream to be able to make the craziest, most ambitious dreams come to life? we're very very fortunate that we have this opportunity and we worked really hard to be able to to realize these dreams for our clients and we we love what we do so i think that comes through and that's what makes every day so enjoyable well tanya richardson i want to live vicariously through

you after the after the break because when we come back we've got more more conversation with you i want to know where this job takes you uh the biggest i want to hear about the brashest of the boldest. I want to hear about all those ideas that you make come to life. So don't go anywhere. More with Tanya Richardson of the Thomas Pierce Design, award-winning design firm when we come back. This Father's Day start with a question, like where did Dad's story begin? Ancestry DNA now has up to $75 off on our Father's Day sale, so Dad can explore his roots across more than 3,600 regions and discover the places and cultures that shaped his story. Save now, give Ancestry DNA from only $69.

Offer ends June 21st. Visit Ancestry.ca for details. Terms apply. Hey, y'all, it's Kelly Clarkson with Wayfair. Ever order furniture online and wonder, what if? Like, what if it doesn't hold up? That sofa was four days old. You should have ordered from Wayfair.

With Wayfair, there's no what if. Just style you love and quality you can trust. Visit Wayfair.ca. Wayfair, every style, every home. Welcome back and thank you so much for spending a little bit of your Thursday with us. Don't forget, you can find the podcast on Spotify, Apple Music, and Amazon music. You can find the video on YouTube. You can also find little snippets of the show all over social media. You can listen to us on the good old fashion radio or you can

listen. You can stream on to go on the IHeart radio app. Thank you so much for finding us wherever you are, you know, that we appreciate it. Tanya Richardson, thank you so much for sticking around. Thank you. Okay, let's go big here. Let's go big because I've looked at a lot of the pictures. You don't I'm sure you can do small, but the pictures I've seen mean you go big. Has there ever been a request by one of your clients that was so big that you said, we can't do this? No. No, never.

We're willing to tackle everything. Has there ever been something that your client has said, I want you to do this for me? And then you think to yourself, that's impossible. But you say, of course we'll do. that. And then you figure out how to do it later? Yes, on a daily basis. Okay. So like what? Like what's a what's commonplace for you that we mere mortals would find absolutely mind-blown? Well, we had a client who a lot of our clients are pilots and the hobby as pilots. And we have a client who we built a helicopter hanger for his helicopter, his transport trucks and his car collection.

and in this space he wanted this massive fireplace and it never ended up getting it never ended up happening so what we ended up doing is we actually had to source out an old warplane and so that's so obscure outside of by sofas and typical pieces of furniture and so to go on that mission to be able to source that out and then go through the engineering of installing it and hanging it from this triple height ceiling and doing this crazy airport helicopter hangar space,

which acts as an entertaining space for him. So in this space, imagine we have the helicopter taking center stage. Right in front of it is literally a stage so he can host concerts for his friends. All big screen TVs all around. A transport truck with his company's logo sitting beside. All of his cars and his motorcycle collection around all of this. So you walk in, and it's a feast for the eyes. And then you journey.

Oh, there's more. There's more. There's more because you journey through to the entertaining side where there's a massive bar and dining table and entertaining lounge so he can sit and entertain all of his friends. So Bond villain. I mean, you could have just said Bond villain, Tanya. Precisely.

There are many bonds out there. But, you know, I have to believe that you've got clients who, who believe that the best would get you to where they are in their own mind will reference a movie or they'll reference a character. You must get that a lot. I'm thinking I'm thinking Brad Pitt in X. I'm thinking Batman in Y. I'm thinking this or I'm thinking that. Does that happen often?

It happens. And actually the lodge that you actually have the photos of, that one was actually inspired by Yellowstone, the television show. I'm so glad you said that because that's what I was thinking. Yes, that's what they came to us. And they said, we want Yellowstone, but not Montana. We want to do it, Ontario with her hobbies. And that's how that came to me. I mean, when I looked at the dining room with that super long table,

that reminded me of the table in the main Yellowstone Lodge. And her dream was to have all 30 members of her immediate family sit down at one table together for a meal. Wow. And that was how we envisioned her dream. Well, now we got to get, so we got to do that, but then we have to get Kevin Costner to cook dinner for her and her 30 immediate family members. I think that would really be the cherry on top. And speaking of cooking, you should see the kitchens that these places are equipped with. They're not only indoor, they're also outdoor kitchens as well.

We don't just do barbecues anymore. We have full-on gourmet kitchens outside for entertaining. Well, of course. Of course you need that. What about pools? During the pandemic, I saw a lot of people building pools. We were fortunate enough that we had a pool. A lot of people were trying to build pools because if you've got a backyard,

you want to maximize it and spend as much time outdoors as possible. I mean, I think I just saw a video online of somebody building a lazy river in their backyard. Oh, wow. That's next level stuff. What happens if you don't have somebody asks you for something and you don't believe that you're, listen, I'm sure you're so skilled at so many things, But what if somebody is so niche there? They're asking for something that you don't have the domain expertise in.

Will you contract in an expert? Absolutely. That's how you get it done. That's essentially what our job is, is to coordinate if we can't do it to hire the right people who can. Wow. And typically, can I ask what some of these budgets are and what the timelines are to get them done? generally timelines we have because nothing happens in today's market very quickly and budgets so budgets with inflation and everything else you get what you pay for in today's

market and so yes we're very fortunate that you know we are given a million dollars to design a spa for a client or you know we're given a hundred thousand dollars to purchase a sofa for and and so we're very fortunate to be able to have the luxury to provide those amenities and luxuries for our clients. Has the affordability crisis affected those at the top top? I would say it does affect the way they make decisions and the way they spend. Maybe they scale back on the exuberance and they spend more on the practical things, the things that they find value in.

What does Tanya Richardson's home look like? Oh, it's the shoemaker in the shoes, Ben. Mine is aspirationally where I would, I have ideas, but no, I have actually, I haven't renovated. I bought a house four years ago, and I'm really bad. I have not renovated my home yet, so I'm next on the list. No way. So it's not your showcase? It is not my, not, now my business partner, on the other hand, his home is his showcase.

Like I said, I bought mine four years ago, so I haven't had my moment to renovate yet, but it's coming. Now, I've heard that what one should do, if you buy a house or you buy a space that you intend to fix up, that you should probably live in it for a little bit first to learn how you use the space and what you start defaulting to and say, oh, I spend more time over here. And I'm clearly, the light that comes in this room, I didn't appreciate it when I bought it. But that's the morning light that I like. And so you'll learn that that's where you want to put, you know, your breakfast nook or where you sit and read your newspaper in the morning. Is that a good rule of thumb?

I think that's an excellent rule of thumb, especially if you have trouble making decisions and committing to long-term big-ticket items. I would say spend four seasons in a home and enjoy all four seasons. And that way, like you said, the light changes throughout the year. You can see how you use the space,

maybe how you initially anticipated to use it, will change and evolve as you live in that space. And so I would say waiting a year to do something, if you can, just really inhabit. it would be good research and development. You know, everyone says that new technologies are benign. It's how they are used. And, you know, I've been thinking about AI in your world.

And it can be, it could probably be a really beneficial thing for you and your design team. But it could also eat into your business. I mean, I saw a video about how quickly and effectively one of these plans. platforms can be used to help somebody visualize a redecorated room. If you take a picture of it, and next thing you know, you've got five different versions of it to choose from. And as you click on it,

it can help you buy the furniture. How do you see AI in your industry? Well, I do see, we are seeing the programs coming out. And we've had very large discussions about how AI will enhance or take away from our business. but right now with AI and as humans we're the creatives. We're the ones who come up with the non-tangible and make it tangible. AI while it's being trained is only as good as it's been programmed. And so right now we still think that there's a lot of room.

Humans, we have the ability to think outside the box where AI is the box. And I think that in terms of where it's going with interior design and in our homes, We're seeing some incredible things. Outside of technology, like you were saying, Wi-Fi and security, we're using AI in closets now. We're having virtual wardrobes where you can scan your wardrobe into an app. And if you want to pick an outfit for the day, the computer will pick the outfit for you. It will also inventory your clothing. There's amazing things happening with technology that we can embrace and use to enhance our everyday life.

Well, the award-winning design for all Thomas Pierce Design. The co-founder is Tanya Richardson. The conversation has taken place on the Ben Mulroney show, and I do thank you, Tanya. Thank you, Ben. All right, when we come back, look, if people are telling you, young people are telling you that they can't start their lives with a home, maybe we should stop using the expression starter homes. We're going to talk to Eric Cam about that next. This episode is brought to you by Activia. You might already be eating yogurt, but not all yogurts are created.

equal. Activia contains over one billion probiotics per serving to survive and reach the gut alive. When it comes to gut health, Activia is the number one family doctor recommended probiotic yogurt brand. Choose Activia. Feel good from the inside out. Visit Activia.ca for more details. Well, I don't know if you're like me, but I watch a lot of those real estate shows, the real estate porn shows like owning Manhattan and that sort of thing. And something happened, but I don't know, three, four years ago, they stopped calling them master bedrooms and they started calling them primaries. And one of the reasons is, obviously, master, I had something to do with slavery, the master and the slave. And so they gave up on that. Now it's now it's just commonly known

as the primary. I got no problem with that. Because words matter, right? Words have effect. and if you can make a case for why a word matters in a bad way, then you can probably get it changed. I'd like to make the case with my next guest, Eric Cam, economics professor at Toronto Metropolitan University. Hello there. Eric, how are you? Not bad, Ben. How are you? I'm good. I'd like to make the case that starter home is a bad expression.

Because starter home, first of all, a lot of people can't even, they're not at the beginning of the race. They're not going to be in the race. They're going to be renting forever. It's out of reach for an entire group of people far more than this country would have ever settled for a generation ago. But the implication that once you get in that house, even if you're lucky enough to get in that house, that you're then expected to start there somewhere else, it can lead to some pretty defeatist attitudes in people who can't get out of their starter home. Yeah, very bad attitudes. You're absolutely right.

First of all, you're right. It was never supposed to be your dream home. It was something that you bought modestly, built up some equity, paid down your mortgage, and then you did what the Jefferson did, and you moved on up. The problem is today, Canadians can't reach that for stone. And so the economic implications are enormous, right?

First of all, it's traditionally been homeownership, the most important vehicle for wealth creation in the middle class, right? And so a few people can buy a house, then wealth accumulation starts to shift toward those who already own assets or who receive assistance from parents. In other words, housing starts to look less like a market and like an inheritance system. And so this is where economists start to panic, right? Because it brings in concentration of wealth, wealth, inequality. And then so you've got a system there where children of homeowners become homeowners. children of renters become renters. That decreases economic mobility. That increases productivity. That

decreases affordability. And then we're off to the races, Ben. And Eric, I really can't stand it when people look at the snapshot of how bad things are today and conclude either out of bad faith or out of, you know, looking at society and history through a through a people or through a keyhole. They look at this one snapshot of how bad stuff is now and say, well, because it's bad now, it must mean it's been bad forever. And therefore, the whole system's got to go. And therefore, we have to pick on people who are doing well today as the problem. When in fact, it's in a lot of cases, and you'd know better than me, it's due to some really bad decisions by some decision makers that led us from a place that was far more equitable, far more fair that presented. far more possibilities of upward mobility than today.

Right. And so to say that your first argument, the faulty argument, you're right. It's wrong. It's myopic and frankly stupid, right? So the real question here, Ben, is have we accidentally, or by governmental error, gotten rid of the economic ladder that the starter home represented, right? So, and if that's the case, and starter homes and, you know, start or anything are disappearing, you're really saying the traditional pathway into the middle

class, or maybe even more importantly, the pathway out of poverty becomes much harder to find. And that's a huge economic story. Yeah, I think these people who look at any system in Canada and see people taking advantage of other people, as opposed to looking at the system, How did it work 15, 20, 30 years ago? Okay, well, it worked back then. So the issue isn't, the issue isn't necessarily the system. It's the changes that were brought to the system by politicians that led a great system that was, it was a wealth creating system. It allowed for people to go from where they are to where they need to be.

And rather than look at that, they just say, oh, there's some rich people taking advantage of some poor people. And to me, that is unhelpful. But let's move on to the other topic that is burning a hole in. my pocket, which is gas prices. And we've seen gas prices drop, which is good to around a buck 50 a liter in cities like Toronto this week. But there's a thought and a belief that gas prices will probably not return to pre-Iran war levels anytime soon.

And the question a lot of people have is, why the F not? Well, I actually think they will. I don't know about soon, but I think they will at some point. And it's a perfectly reasonable question. And the answer is that energy markets don't price in today's reality. They price in tomorrow's fears. So let the listeners think of it, Ben, like insurance. You don't buy home insurance because your house is on fire.

You buy home insurance because your house might catch fire. And oil markets work in a similar way, right? Traders don't say supply disrupted. They say, what are the odds supply could be disrupted next week or next month? And then that premium gets reflected in crude prices. And then there's the second layer that's really going to make people angry, which is there's almost this misinformation that crude oil is the component of gasoline prices. It's one component.

There's refining costs, transportation costs, inventory, taxes, exchange rates and markup. So when crude prices, right, when they change, prices at the pump do not tend to jump or fall immediately. So consumers notice this asymmetry because, they're paying for it. And much like your first story, there's broader economic concerns here, too. And we know what it is, which is this factors into everything we do, everything to eat, right? Airlines move people, trucks move people, factories, they all consume fuel. And when prices rise and don't come down, businesses face higher costs, and they definitely pass those on to the consumers. Yeah. So if these prices don't come down, then that means the cost of food is going to stay high.

That means the cost of heating your home is going to stay high. That means the cost of all the goods that you buy that have to be shipped in from somewhere is going to stay high. It feels like so many people have a vested interest in bringing those prices down, with the exception possibly of the companies themselves that are benefiting from it and government coffers. Let me say this quickly, Ben. So energy is one of the arteries of the global economy, right? markets get very nervous when when when that artery gets choked off and isn't it a shame then that we don't live in a country that has lots of energy and minerals and lNG under the ground

yeah it's it's a crying shame that we weren't blessed by god with all the things that the world needs it's a shame exactly right and we weren't blessed by god with the people in ottawa to cultivate it but this argument is going on and going on and we'll discuss it again next week Well, Eric, Cam, I want to thank you so much for joining me, my friend. And are you watching FIFA at all? Yeah, a lot. It's great. I love the tournament.

You're going to be watching the Canada versus Qatar or Cutter? I don't know how you pronounce it. Only Greg Brady says Cutter, but yes, I will be watching Canada versus Qatar. And as I often say, as much as it makes me sad sometimes, go Canada, go. Yeah, go Canada, go. And by the way, one last thing, if you really want to upset Greg Brady, just don't call it the World Cup. at FIFA. He can't stand that. He can't stand it. He was going nuts

about that yesterday. But you know what? Right now he's home caring for his mom, so we'll give him a mulligan. Ah, we'll give him a mulligan. You had to bring his mom into it. Shame on you. Boo. Eric Kemp, thank you very much, my friend. Stay healthy, Ben. Since the dawn of time, humanity has been at war. It has

shaped the world around us. And if it somehow feels like we've been here before, it's because we have. I'm David Boris. I'm a military historian, and on my new podcast, Hostile History, I take us inside history's most defining wars and rebellions. From Genghis Khan to the war in Iran, find out how the past can explain the present. Search for and follow Hostile History on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or wherever you find your favorite podcasts.