The Ben Mulroney Show - Breaking Down the Kelly Clarkson Pretty Woman Drama

Episode Date: October 14, 2026

On today's episode of "The Ben Mulroney Show," Ben welcomes back Tony Chapman, Host of the award winning podcast Chatter that Matters, Founding Partner of Chatter AI. Singer Kelly Clarkson shared a recent shopping experience at a small business and the shop owner is fighting back. TikTok: @chatterthatmatters  Instagram @chatterthatmatters LinkedIn: @tonychapmanreactions YouTube: @ChatterthatMatters Facebook: Chatter That Matters X/Twitter: @TonyChapman Primary hashtag: #ChatterThatMatters If you enjoyed the podcast, tell a friend! For more of the Ben Mulroney Show, subscribe to the podcast! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://link.chtbl.com/bms⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Also, on youtube --⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@BenMulroneyShow⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow Ben on Twitter/X at ⁠https://x.com/BenMulroney⁠ Insta:⁠ ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠⁠ Twitter:⁠ ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠⁠ TikTok:⁠ ⁠⁠⁠@benmulroneyshow⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Standard messaging and data rates may apply. Very glad that Tony Chapman has joined us. He's the host of the award-winning podcast, Chatter That Matters, and the founding partner of Chatter-A-I. And before we jump into this story, tell me about Small Business Month, why it's important to you. Oh, I put five back-to-back episodes. It started with Sid Piquette, who runs a venture program for RBC. Bruce Croxin, you probably know.

Yes, I know, Bruce. And Andrew Black's coming on, and I've got a woman that started a business just because she's so tired of labels getting thrown off on a camp. So she created Mabel's labels and became a big success story. So it's just real stories of these everyday people that have found a way to find a way through this sort of complexity of this economy we're in and make it happen. I think there's a lot of people dream and want to do, but it's just sometimes hard to get going.

It's headwind after headwind after headwind. And if you are a small business owner and you are and you've survived every challenge that the world or the economy or the COVID or COVID has thrown your way, yeah, you absolutely deserve to be celebrated. And like we said, there's a study that came out that said 52% of Canada's non-government GDP is created by small and medium-sized businesses. And almost all the job growth. So instead of spending hundreds of millions to try to keep 500 workers going, as important as they are, put some money into the small business economy. Yeah. So with that as the backdrop and two people who have the utmost respect for small business owners and small businesses, we're probably going to disagree a little bit. But Kelly Clarkson, the singer and the winner of American Island, the host of her wildly popular show, was in Brooklyn recently.

And she went into it. Jove there by herself. She went in and she wanted to buy something. and when she came out, she did not have the experience that she expected and was mad enough that she posted about it. She said, just drove all the way to Brooklyn to check out this store,

I thought looked really rad, and had a few things in mind to buy and literally was looked at as if I couldn't afford it and was told to he could find something comparable for me. Wow, dude, you're an idiot and just lost a huge sale, but y'all should go check out art of play in Brooklyn if you enjoy being treated like Julia Roberts' character and Pretty Woman for sure. Check it out. By the way, play that clip.

Hey, I help you. Hi. Hello. Do you remember me? No, I'm sorry. I was in here yesterday. You wouldn't wait on me? Oh, you work on commission, right? Yes. Big mistake. Big. Huge. I have to go shopping now. And then the store responded. And they said they saw the backlash and they tried to, explain it away.

And I thought it was going to end there. Like when I heard that, I was like, oh, that's a really good response where they said, the thing that she wanted wasn't for sale. But, and, you know, we're big, but what doesn't kill you make you stronger, quoting one of her songs. I thought it was a really good response. But then she came back and said, so you're sticking with that. You're going to cut out the part of the conversation where the person treated me like crap.

And so what are your thoughts? Well, I think we are going to disagree. I think anybody that has 20 million followers shouldn't, you. that as a platform to attack a single small business. Even if you had a bad experience, take about it, talk about it with your friends, but she's just hit that business with a sledgehammer. And for what reason? She didn't get what she wanted.

He says, she says, goes back and forth. But when you have that much of a voice, yes, consumers can have a voice. Customers should have a voice. But when your voice is 20 million strong and you have these rabid fans, I think you're just, you're destroying a small business and you're taking full advantage of your celebrity, and I think it's wrong. Actually, you know, through that lens, you know, I think you're probably right then. I think you're right.

Yeah, if you're a normal, regular person and you've got, you know, you've got the following of a normal regular person and you complain, then it's going to get, then it's going to get the attention it deserves. And you're probably right. You're probably right with 20 million followers. That is, that's an unfair advantage. It's an unfair advantage. But she did, but like, I met her. And she's a reasonable person. I'm sure she is.

I'm sure she was just like the guy could have been as rude as possible. Yeah. She couldn't get the bird she wanted, you know, but even the way she said, I drove over by myself in the heaven. Like, really, she just, like, is this what celebrity? No, no, but her point was, I support small business. To the point that I got in the car, I drove myself there. I went all the way to Brooklyn. And she couldn't get what she wanted and she went away and there was a bit, listen, whatever the reason.

Small business deserves our vote of confidence. And when you've got 20 million people, you should say, I wasn't happy with I didn't whatever. But, you know, I just, I'm upset. Thankfully, a lot of people in Brooklyn have gone around supported the store. And it's a local magic store, magic cards. I mean, you imagine the people that are in there. They're all sort of nerdy. Nerdy into that world. And they're going to, I mean, thankfully,

they've sided with the store owner. And maybe at the end of it, they'll get a little bit more attention. And listen, I'm now decided I'm subscribing to your perspective, but I want to offer this as well. I need a copy of this tape, by the way. No, it's one, like, I, when people, it's like when, When we talk about tipping culture. And they say, well, you know, a waiter depends on their tips.

I was like, okay, then the service I get should be reflective of the fact that you depend on it. Like, if you depend on it, I'm not just phoning it in. Like, if you're going to phone in your service, the tip will reflect it or show me that you depend on it by giving me the service that warrants a huge tip. And I think what her point was, and however, you know, disproportionate was, the point is a good one, which is as hard as it is out there for a small business, you should show it. You should show how much you appreciate every customer by treating every customer well. Yeah. And again, we'd have to, we'd have to see a tape to see what really

happened. But I understand she fell in love with this mechanical bird that they used of these local magic shows. It's a fixture. It's the iconic element of the store. And they said, it's not for sale, but maybe I can find you something similar. That's what, there's. side of story is. Whatever story happened, I mean, let's just say that I think that she is supposedly a beautiful person, very nice, lovely individual, but she took on small business. I'm an advocate for small business, so I'm not on her side. I am too. But again, you got to, they're not an eye, I mean, if she is to be believable, let's live in a world where everything she said is true. Then they're not, it's like what a lawyer would say, not an ideal client. But listen, can you

expect every part-time employee every day of the week, every hour that day to be up and absolutely embody your brand. So somebody comes in. Who knows it's 4 o'clock in the afternoon and waiting for it to close. Whatever the situation, I'm not defending the individual, but for you to go out and absolutely slam it, your celebrity. If you came and said, I don't like the way they handed me a cup of coffee.

I'm going to get in radio and talk about how bad that that coffee shop is. I'd kind of say, really? Seriously, with your voice, your range of people, just because you had you ran into somebody with a bad day, do they really deserve that anger? No, but if I can, I can see. So it's in the owner of the shop. It was an employee.

in a world, I think I'm a pretty reasonable person and I, and I will make allowances for people having a bad day. But if it crossed a line into mean-spiritedness, condescension, and if, in Kelly Clarkson's mind, she might have said to herself, wow, if they're treating me like this, how are they, could they be treating everyone like this? I, again, the way I, again, confirmation bias, she's talked about in your last segment. My confirmation bias was she couldn't get, which, she wanted. She should. I think you're right.

And, you know, like, I don't think it had any to do with their income is the fact that product wasn't for sale. I think she probably thought everything should be sell because I'm Kelly Clarkson. I think she should have, I think in retrospect, I think my, what I would have suggested is she, she DM them. Yeah. And it comes from the official Kelly Clarkson account. Yeah.

And just say, like, it would happen. I mean, you know. Yeah. I mean, and I, and I get it. I, I do. But I don't like it when the customer isn't treated well. I don't like that story. I would put up the whole text exchange and say,

what do you think and continue this on because they're getting some great attention. I never heard of the art of playing in Brooklyn. No. Now I know about the art playing. If I'm in Brooklyn, I'm going to check them up. No, and so you think that this is a win for them. Absolutely.

Yeah? Yeah. I mean, there's 19,958,000 of her 20 million followers do not live in Brooklyn. It's a local store. Yeah. I mean, I know she went all the way to drive out to Brooklyn to get it, but they're a local magic nerd story.

We've seen those stores. They've got like incense and they've got like wizards and they've got books of witchcraft and tarot cards. And everything else is going in it. I'm sorry she didn't get her back. A mechanical bird. Maybe she crowdsourced it. You've made your case very well because now I'm thinking about it that even if I gave her the grace for the first post. Yeah.

She should have let it lie after they put theirs out. And it seems like I felt like I was treated like Julia Roberts. and, I mean, come on. I mean, that's that's. that's like yeah i mean julia roberts yeah they made well she was treated like a hooker yeah a hooker that shouldn't belong in that store of buying pretty dresses anyway all right we got more to talk about uh because uh coming up you're not going to believe what one guitar teacher did to drum up business and if you're discounting gen alpha when it comes

to household spending you need to listen to new data that may surprise you because uh because you might not you might need to rethink your marketing plan this is the ben mulrooney show My conversation with Tony Chapman continues. Tony is the host of the award-winning podcast, Chatter That Matters, and founding partner, Chatter AI. How's Chatter-A-I going? It's going well. We just launched a new element of it called Fresh Pair of Eyes,

where we do a very quick in-and-out, helping clients, and it's going really well. That's good for you. So in your business, this AI model that you've built is a game-changer. It's a game-changer because, basically, I used to have 40 people in creative and strategy at my peak. And now I have this orchestra of knowledge. And what did you train it on?

I trained it. I've used a cloud. I use a classifier AI called Ask Polly, which nobody's using, which is basically, like, I can tell you 10 years of online conversations and a heartbeat. So I know where the herd's going. Yeah. And I combine it with a couple of generative ones and a process that we really are excited about. And like it crushes it. It comes up with stuff that's like it's exciting.

Yeah. And it works for you. It works for me. I wish never showed up because I think it's going to be for society. But we'll talk about that another time. But for me, personally, I love it. So that's where everything is going, except seemingly Dan Smith and his guitar lessons.

Tell me the story about Dan Smith. Well, we've all seen the telephone pole with a white, you know, photocopied paper and somebody's offering, you know, catwalking, dog walking. Well, this case, he offered a guitar lessons. And he would teach you the songs you love, and you could rip off his phone number. But he's been doing that for 35 years in Manhattan.

And it's just a fiction in the neighborhood. They all know it. Well, anyways. HP, which sells photocopier paper, said, wouldn't it be wonderful to celebrate somebody that's used our photocopry so long? So they took out an 80-foot billboard and Times Square with this paper ad on it. And it just, it really does prove that sometimes you stick with an idea for that long. And it just becomes part of your vernacular and part of the culture. And that's what he's done for so well. It's made his living teaching guitar lessons. So how can you tell the difference between

change whose time has come and change for the sake of change. Well, a quick story. So I got briefed on hockey program, two clients. One was Kraft, one was Pepsi. We had to come up of two different progress. Pepsi, bring home the Stanley Cup. Messiae could come to your house where you're drinking Pepsi eating chips watching the game. Kraft Hockeyville.

Used the store as the campaign headquarters, a small town, get an arena makeover, and a professional hockey team would show up. Kraft Hockeyville celebrated his 20th years, sold billions and billions of groceries. Pepsi after two years got bored with theirs. The difference very often is not the consumer that gets bored. In fact, it's the new marketing team that comes in and says that was somebody else's idea. I'm going to reinvent it. But how can you tell the difference between, well, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

And, you know, we've got to change something now. Well, you talked about it earlier. Confirmation bias is very hard for marketers because when they come in, they want to invent everything over. They want to change your brand, your logo, your positioning. Remember the Jaguar we talked about a couple of weeks ago? they just think that's their girl. They're going, like the consumer's tired of it, so they've got to come up with something new.

And more often than not, the consumer is really not paying that much attention to your brand. Yeah. So what you're doing is you're changing it for your sake and maybe to celebrate to the board. You hired the right CMO. But if you, sometimes when you got something good, you just stick with it.

Master Lock, Super Bowl, one ad a year. Yeah. The bullet that went through the Master Lock, they never, only ad they ever did, only marketing ever did. One of the most successful brand campaigns ever because it was the same ad every year and people said, oh, there comes a MasterLock ad.

My favorite ad of all time, and IKEA still airs it, is the blonde lady who at the checkout sees what her bill was and looks around, thinks she got away with highway robbery, and comes out, and is screaming down in the parking lot, start the car! It's, to me, the most perfect commercial. And I'm so glad they still use it. Yeah.

And it is a classic, great insight, because we've all been there going, should I say it? I just, this is a gift. You know, that's where the devil and the devil slaps you in the hands and get the hell out of there. It was a beautiful act. Okay, Gen Alpha. So my kids are Gen Alpha. But they are clearly the exceptions that prove the rules here that 50% of total U.S. household spending is influenced heavily by the youngest members of that household.

Yeah, we've been seeing this for quite a while, including the Gen Zs as well. What's happened is because they're digital natives. They're on TikTok. They're on Instagram. They're on lots of platforms. they're always bringing, hey, look at this to their mom and dad. Look what I found. Look at it's exciting.

This is different. And it's actually starting to influence purchases. The computers you're bringing home, the technology, what kind of television set am I going to get? Even the cars, mileage, everything else. These people actually have a seat at the table where in the past, you might bang them over the back of the head. So I'm not going to buy you the sugared cereal. Stop asking for it. Today they're actually saying we're brand influencers.

So the question is, who's now influencing the family? Is it the 30-second ad? we grew up in or is it the influencers that marketers are going to that influence your young kids. I told you during the break, I think I did something to my kids because when they were younger, they only watched YouTube. And I bought YouTube premium so that they wouldn't see commercials. And consequently, I think I deprive their developing brains of a lot of the marketing

that shaped a lot of my consumer interest, the cereal, the toys, all that stuff. They never saw ads for that. Yeah. So their brand, as you said, they're just agnostic. They don't care about brands where if you grew up with advertising, you fell in love with brands. I mean, were you a Coke drinker or a Pepsi drinker? Yeah. You know, and I think nowadays this generation's coming along. They do, they go much more into the weeds. And, and again, this influencer economy is so powerful out there. And they have no, often no scientific backgrounds. They have no science behind it. They're just out there saying what there's paid to show. Oh, yeah. Yeah. We've all seen those ones where we're, we're influential. Influencers get duped. I remember the, I remember the stunt that pay less shoes did where they opened up a fake store, a high-end Italian shoe store called Palesi.

Yeah. And they brought in influencers to gauge the quality of the shoes and the cost of these shoes. Oh, I would pay 500. I'd pay $1,500. $1,500 for these shoes. Then they find out at the end that they're pay less. Speaking of confirmation bias. Yeah.

And that's what they do. And again, I think all of that, matters to us because he's just trying to listen to these kids before you go out and make a big five or ten thousand dollar purchase she should actually do some you know there's chat gpt to help you do some homework there are some there are some influencers who who have risen to the top of the heap in terms of their their reviews and like marquez marquez brown i think for tech like he's got a whole business out of him he's been doing it for years uh so i don't even view him as a as an influencer there are certain people who are in a different thought leaders thought leaders that can

influence the policies that are happening is very different than a creator of the It's just shilling something because they're getting paid. And, I mean, the Kardashians made a pretty good career out of that. Hey, remind me, before we let you go, October, Small Business Month, and what do you have going on? So we got Bruce Croxon. We've got Andrew Black coming up. We've got Julie Cole next week.

This is a great one on Thursday. A mom that started six kids couldn't go to work anymore. A autistic kid built a business from her kitchen table. How old were you when you got, did you start your own business? In my 20s, my first series business, but I put myself through school, selling radio, selling jewelry at the back of my car. I've always hustled. I've always been an entrepreneur.

I mean, I didn't have a lot of entrepreneurs. I came for nothing and I never wanted to feel that again. And that's the drive of an entrepreneur. But man, you've got to be today so resilient. As Bruce Croxon says, you're going to 49% of the time, you're going to get knocked over. Are you ready to go up, stand up? Yeah. Because 51% you grind it out, you got a chance.

I tell you, I've had a front row seat for like entrepreneurs who love the early stage of startup life. That to me is like the scariest part. And these guys just thrive on it. As soon as the business can walk, they exit and start another one. I was like, that's, to me, let's a great book called The Founders Dilemos. They should because they're not, they're meant to be on the tight rope. But once that tightrope's tight, and you're going back and forth, it's repetitive. Yeah.

And process driven, they're the last people you want running that business. But it's to me this, I'm not, I know what my constitution is. I, I'm very well equipped to help a founder execute their vision. Yeah. You give me my marching orders and I will do my part. But you're more growth-oriented. You know how to create opportunities. You open the world and so they can run through it.

We're talking about process and we're talking about efficiency and we're talking about pennies on the dollar. And when you're in the weeds like that, not necessarily the psychology of an entrepreneur. I can't take a dollar and turn it into a million, but I can help you take a million and turn to a billion. Yeah. And I'd like a piece of it too.

All right. Oh, yeah. No, but I think you and I both agree. Small business owners deserve our respect. The heroes of our economy. We've got to keep them beating strong. Yeah, we've got to, clear the road for them, get some of this government out of the way to help them out.

As always, Tony Chapman, thank you so much for being here. I love it when you come into studio and we can chew the fat for extended periods of time. We'll see you next week. We'll do the same thing. Hi, it's Alan Cross. Here to announce two more legs of my national speaking tour. November will be busy with stops in Halifax, Sydney and Truro Nova Scotia. Then it's Waterloo, Hamilton, St. Catharines, London, Oshawa, Montreal, Ottawa, and Kingston. In addition to the regular freewheeling audience Q&A,

I'm going to conduct a live performance of my podcast, uncharted crime and mayhem in the music industry. Music and the mob. It's something that we created just for this tour. Tickets at my website, a journal of Musicalthings.com, under the heading speaking gigs at the top. But hurry, because some dates are already sold out. Crime and Mayhem and the music industry on the road this fall. Hope to see you soon.